Mini 1221: Vegas Mafia (Over!)

[hahonryuu]

Confirmed.

Vote: Timeater

VOTE: demonhybrid for casting a second vote on 1 person already

[hahonryuu]

Confirmed.

Vote: Timeater

VOTE: demonhybrid for casting a second vote on 1 person already

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

Unvote, Vote: hahonryuu

0_o huh?

[hahonryuu]

Still not seeing where the vote came from. I thought it was shifty to have a second vote on someone so early. I vote for you. This makes me scum....how exactly?

[hahonryuu]

Still not seeing where the vote came from. I thought it was shifty to have a second vote on someone so early. I vote for you. This makes me scum....how exactly?

Because you don't understand how RVS works

and you are scum, opportunistically trying to pin me starting an RVS wagon as scummy.

If you were town, you should have been thanking me for trying to end RVS earlier.

apparently not. but that doesn't make me scum. that means I don't understand RVS. Besides, why thank you for ending RVS with a vote on someone with no explanation? if you are going to end it, wouldn't it be better to do it with a vote that has, i dunno...something to go off of? I saw something shifty and i address it. I'm sorry if there's something wrong with calling out a shifty action. I was under the assumption that's how things get done in here =/

[hahonryuu]

Still not seeing where the vote came from. I thought it was shifty to have a second vote on someone so early. I vote for you. This makes me scum....how exactly?

Because you don't understand how RVS works

and you are scum, opportunistically trying to pin me starting an RVS wagon as scummy.

If you were town, you should have been thanking me for trying to end RVS earlier.

apparently not. but that doesn't make me scum. that means I don't understand RVS. Besides, why thank you for ending RVS with a vote on someone with no explanation? if you are going to end it, wouldn't it be better to do it with a vote that has, i dunno...something to go off of? I saw something shifty and i address it. I'm sorry if there's something wrong with calling out a shifty action. I was under the assumption that's how things get done in here =/

You're missing my point.

Town mindset: "Oh, there's a 2nd vote on someone. Cool, lets see how the person on the other end of the bandwagon reacts."

Scum mindset: "Let me try to get the wagoner lynched, and use the fact that he posted no reasoning as a catalyst."

Did you really think my aim was to get Timeater lynched?

I dont know the first thing about you. i cant pretend to know what is in your head. maybe you were? maybe you werent? i dunno. Why is it that your vote is pressure and mine is scum? why exactly do you get to decide what my vote accomplishes compared to yours? its like 2 seconds into day 1, im not really expecting anyone to get lynched anytime soon whether its you trying to get timeater or me you. but that doesnt mean i wont vote/call someone out on behavior i dont like, just like you have with me

[hahonryuu]

I dont know the first thing about you. i cant pretend to know what is in your head. maybe you were? maybe you werent? i dunno. Why is it that your vote is pressure and mine is scum? why exactly do you get to decide what my vote accomplishes compared to yours? its like 2 seconds into day 1, im not really expecting anyone to get lynched anytime soon whether its you trying to get timeater or me you. but that doesnt mean i wont vote/call someone out on behavior i dont like, just like you have with me

Okay, so, you have a vote. First post of the game, and it's without reason; a second vote on a bandwagon. Do you absolutely think that I was trying to hide something or get Timeater lynched? Because those are the two main reasons on why you'd feel the need to vote it.

Then you come in, and vote me for a non-RVS reason. It's for me being the 2nd vote on a wagon, and I honestly don't believe that you legitimately found it scummy. There are textbook RVS wagons ALL of the time, in nearly every game, and you waltz in and place a vote for someone trying to get the game out of RVS. The only "shiftiness" is what you've made of it, and that's what's scummy.

maybe they do happen all the time, but unfortunately I wouldnt know. this is my second game on site. perhaps im just not used to what is commonplace and what isnt, but it just felt weird to me to see someone have a second vote with no reason given so early. and again, you ask me a questions as though I was supposed to know what you were thinking. for all i knew, you WERE trying to get him lynched. I dont know. unfortunately, as helpful as it would be in this game, im not psychic. what i did know is that i didnt like it.

[hahonryuu]

Wow, seems things really hit the fan while I was gone. well im going to start by UNVOTE: Ankamius. a new person I believe deserves somewhat of a fresh start. especially considering with the way things went. DH in the end <to me> looked like a townie who was upset that a very common RVS plan went wrong because a newbie <that'd be me> screwed things up and nearly got him to death row. well, ok the chances of an actual lynch were probably slim. but I imagine being at L-2 is scary stuff.

I apologize for not having said anything today. busy with some real life things yadda yadda and by the time I was home and realized I should probably post here...it was nearly 1:30 and I have work tomorrow. I WILL post tomorrow night <though late, I work from afternoon to evenings> so no worries there. I'm off to bed now and if anyone has anything in particular they want me to answer/address tomorrow please tell me.

[hahonryuu]

home from work now, gonna do some ISOing then post. I'm a bit slow at it and im easily distracted but i'll have it up within the next couple hours. anyway, posting time.

[hahonryuu]

thoughts on everyone. btw this will very likely be a wall. err, get used to it >_>. it's habit of mine.

Ankamius: well I believe I have already stated that by the time DH quit he seemed to me like a townie who attempted to scum hunt until a newbie <Have I mentioned I'm sorry for sucking? I'm working on it. Can't get better without playing> screwed things up. then when he did quit his replacement <ankamius> seems town enough to me.

don johnson: got nothing. 2 posts that don't say anything gives me nothing.

Empking: umm...page12. anyway on to my thoughts. you haven't really said anything. you have posted a lot, but havent really said anything. after the confirm and the RVS you make a real vote which is fine and dandy I guess <would've liked a little more than what you gave as a reason, but that early on there isnt exactly a wealth of info and scum tells to go off of>. your next post you are saying Link is town and then compare him to you. sounds like you are advertising yourself more than anything and I don't think I like that. within your next couple posts you call some things out on people briefly then go on to little tidbits of commenting <"No", "that post told me nothing", "that discussion was worth nothing" etc>. then proceed to ask a few people what page it is for whatever reason...I wanna say for inactivity considering at least johnson, mysterio, and myself have posted relatively little. cant recall if the others on the list have, but I suppose if they haven't I'll find out in a bit. if it was, calling me out seems a little pointless since in my last post at the time I stated that I would be posting tonight,a nd relatively late tonight at that since I had work. if inactivity wasn't the reason then, well im curious as to what it was. and i really hope its not something obvious and im brain farting >_>

overall It almost seems like active lurking. posting and staying "active" without seeming to really do anything. so a possible temporary VOTE: empking until either a satisfactory case comes up or I just find someone more suspicious while ISOing.

Ender: yes, yes i know its the mod. I was just going down the name list and i had a question for him. about your name. reference to the Ender series of books<game, shadow, etc>? or something else? or is it not even a reference and you are just the "ender"?

hellbound: another person who hasn't posted much. but I guess in the little that has been said he seems on the town side of null.

Link: at first seemed to be more of a commentator than a participant. but then, I suppose except for me defending myself and DH attacking me and then defending against the votes he was getting himself, combined with how early it was in the game...pretty much everyone seems that way to an extent. and on some level it wasnt his fault, lots of people either asking questions about his name or trolling him about it. later he seems to start actually playing and seems town enough. though I also dont think I like how confident he was in a "town" getting killed by the "day vig". his explanation seems...well I want to say I believe him, but his explanation seems to be more saying that

in his mind

the "day vig" killed someone he strongly believed was town...but the way he said it originally implies he

knew

he was town. for now I suppose i'll let the explanation slide unless something else comes up

maruchan: long story short I think he's town because of his response to kinda almost sorta getting killed. I mean I guess a mafia could realize that its maybe not a real day vig <or at least consider it> and play town till the death is official just in case...but I dunno, getting in to what scum MIGHT be thinking or not seems like it wont get us anywhere. I'm choosing to believe the claim for now unless he does something super scummy.

mysterio: same deal as don johnson. though he claims to be catching up as I write this so maybe I'll be able to get a read of some kind on him tonight. though that was a while ago...so unless he's posting a wall even more massive than mine, gonna say its not happening tonight and he's strictly catching up on what has been going on and will comment at a later date.

nintendoaddict: *reads name* hmm town points already! I jest of course. I dont necessarily agree with everything you have said, you SEEM town enough. at least at first. in 149 <his ISO 9> when he votes for DH, he does so after pointing out that he was quitting for being angry. now, there were lots of quotes in that post and earlier in the post he DID say that he thought DH was scummy...it just seems like an odd place to put the vote. why not put it higher up during the parts where the actual case was? it makes it seem like you voted because he quit. maybe im just being nit picky. or heck, maybe the rage quit was scummy in some way and was relevant to the case? if so then let me know. then later there was the way he took maru's "prove im innocent" as "trying to be innocent" which, as link pointed out, implies 2 very different things. you do something similar with twistedspoon in 249 <ISO 17>...seems pretty obvious he didn't mean that every PR who doesn't come out and say "im role X" is scummy behavior. he was just asking someone who had either made a claim or fakeclaim, and did so in a way that we would find out the truth eventually <due to maru being alive or not> relatively soon anyway. you seem to be twisting peoples words/meanings to your liking to make them look scummy. you later claim you were just tired...but i dunno. as with link, i suppose I'll believe your explanation for now unless something else comes up. difference being though that, counting maru, this is already the second time. sorta turning into a fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me kind of situation.

The Tick: ahh, your name and avatar bring up so many memories. havent seen that dude in forever. anyway, yeah. *sigh* can't really find anything that stands out. though like with Link he seems to act more like a commentator than a player. but he eventually stepped out of that a bit. answered questions when asked of him. says why he believes person X did thing Y. though one thing gets to me is that he retracts his defenses of timeater and basically says he WILL vote for him assuming timeaters defense was lacking...but I don't think he gave a reason for the take back he did. maybe he did and i missed it. after reading so many posts i could see my brain auto skipping stuff to get through with the work faster. So my question to you tick, why the retraction of your defense?

timeater: near the beginning, seems to be more fighting with DH than actually...how to word this. more fighting than debating? disagreeing? i dunno. continue on for a while and...wait you unvoted? wha- wh-. huh? just unvote, with no reason given? *is confused* maybe future posts will tell me why...you had an inner realization that had nothing to do with anything he <and by implying inner realization nothign anybody else either> said? how did you come to this inner realization? seeing some of your thought process would be nice. wait. you say your realization was that he's a bad player? sir, at the risk of getting votes since I myself have done dumb things, the roles are chosen randomly...a bad player can be scum. I mean I can sorta understand it on some level. its not like I havent seen someone do something...not optimal, and chose to believe it was due to inexperience or something and writing it off to an extent. but the way you did ait seems like you just suddenly happened to drop the case completely. seems shifty. while i dont think that was the "nicest" way you could have put it, I will say that on some level you were "pushed" into saying DH is a bad player. and im not going to call you our for saying it. its not like I can dictate your opinions or anything. however in 147 <ISO 17> after saying you were pushed into it...you continue on. at this point it isn't you being pushed into saying something mean, you are just being antagonistic. to say you are better than him AND say you are terrible and he should just get over it?

at this point that seems to possibly be a mafia trying to start shit with someone to distract us from hunting, to watching a boxing match <btw, low blows are a no no in boxing sir>. then after the bell rings and DH forfeits the boxing match you say you are sorry to everyone for that? if you are so sorry why not just have ended it earlier? you then go absent for a while for no reason other than you feel like it. "emp needs to stop active lurking" says the guy who is

apparently

vla yet miraculously still posts and who's last several posts were:

an apology, you telling the mod something, telling us you are on your wii as well as saying 2 people are probably the same alignment, calling someone <i assume zdenek> a moron for commenting on you being online but not voting with the excuse of you being vla...yet you have posted and were ON, so saying "but i dont have to, i told you guys i wouldnt be on" is kinda BS. anyway, continuing with the list, you then requested a vote count, and saying zdenek is backpeddling...

yet you call someone out on active lurking? scratch that, you call someone out on active lurking while not only active lurking, but after basically asking freaking permission for it by saying you were vla. posting kinda voids your vla, particularly when your reasons were basically just because you wanted to. dont get me wrong, i believe he's active lurking too. but coming from you this is just laughable. so, pot, what color is that kettle again?

"real meat in a few hours" *over 12 hours later*...im hungry, wheres muh meat foo? I mean i understand being busy with rl stuff and all, i was busy too and couldnt post till now. but I said i would post tonight, and here I am.

overall read: thinking scum

pheew, this is taking longer than i thought.

twistedspoon: you fool, there is no spoon! town? nothing particular really stands out to me thats negative. nothing to see here folks. unless, as with tick, i missed something. i mean ive been at this for *looks at clock* GEEZ! how the. anyway, so yeah, nothing here seems worth commenting on.

zdenek: not sure I understand the vote on "me" on 77 <ISO 1>. i mean for all intents and purposes the vote WAS meant for me. DH said "you dont understand RVS" i said "that doesnt make me scum, that just means i dont understand RVS". you seemed to think that made me auto scum. why? also gotta say that within 4 posts you voted 4 times on 3 people. seems...wishy washy. a little later you vig. as of now because of that I really wanna say you are town because...well claiming <or pretending to claim to put someone in a position like that> takes bawlz. seems risky enough that I'm not sure a scum would do it. hmm, but at the same time, what if you had hit a PR and they claimed cop/blocker/whatever. that would mean you outed a PR. thinking about it that way, the plan seemed to involve more risk than gain. dont think I like it anymore. and in 293 <iso 15> where you explain...ahh hell

Except, when I Was scum my mod told me that day-communications between scum in any form of code were EXPRESSLY not allowed, and in order for them to make this code, they would have had to talk about it in the QT, where the mod would have told them it wasn't allowed? Does that make sense?

I am not saying that it is a code. My point is that Timeater is suggesting that DH and I are connected by alignment, which essentially means that he thinks we are scum or town together. On top of that, he said that he thinks that DH is town. If he was town, and thought that he figured out a mason pair, he would have kept his mouth shut. He didn't. So he is scum making sure to let his buddy know what he noticed.

what exactly is he telling his buddy he noticed? that you and DH are the same alignment? but scum already know everyones alignment...why would he need to tell a scum buddy that? I don't think I follow you here. please tell me if im missing something

overall read:...i don't think I know honestly. I don't like the way he was switching his votes left and right. I think the vig plan's cons outweigh pro's unless someone would like to argue otherwise. and i don't think i follow his logic on that last post...my head says scum my gut says town playing a risky game with either bad logic or logic i simply don't understand atm. his is a read that will be more confirmed after I get some explanation out of him and maybe some opinions/comments from others

[hahonryuu]

@don johnson: I can understand not wanting to read through pointless stuff to find the relevant info to an extent...but I gotta agree with Link. the other day, when I originally announced that i wouldn't be posting till last night, I asked if there was anything specific anyone wanted me to address. but it didn't mean I didn't I wasn't going to read through the thread. and I did. I got off work last night at 11:20-ish, got home and sat down and started reading not only what I missed in my absence, but ISO'd every single person and gave my thoughts on them. took me hours. didn't get to bed till like 3-4 something in the morning. now obviously I only stayed up quite that late because I had the day off today. I'm not expecting you to just spend every bit of free time you have on mafia. I sure don't. and everyone's schedules are different. but refusing to read the whole thread yourself and demanding we give you a list. it should be you read the thread AND address whatever it is you were asked to address. yes, you are correct, sometimes there isn't much to go off of early on in day 1. but it doesn't mean you don't give what you can. we did the work, you can too.

maybe I'm more upset that you seem to be totally unwilling to even attempt to do what I did last night. even in small chunks.

@the tick: fair enough. I guess I assumed the stuff below it was an afterthought. like a "for reason X i am retracting my defense. also, take a look at this". my mistake I suppose.

@empking: kindly point out my 20% rubbish. I would prefer there not to be rubbish in my posts when possible and am just curious as to your thoughts in general beyond you agreeing with 80% of it. I can understand feeling out of sync with the game because of something occurring with your main read. it happened to me in my last game where my top read claimed cop >_>...but the thing is though, you've been posting the way you have all game, even when DH was still here.

timeater: I suppose it would be mildly hypocritical to call you out on doing dumb shit...but, i dunno. like twisted spoon I wanna say its for real. but saying <again with the hint of hypocrisy> sorry for the dumb shit doesn't change the dumb shit that was done, so I'm torn. and I do agree on zdenek to an extent <what with he flip floppiness of his first several votes and the current disagreement I have with the vig plan>

ender: *bro fist*

speaking of zdenek's vig thing...perhaps no one got to it in my wall < come on guys, dont tell me i did all that for nothing> but AM curious as to what the rest of you think on my thoughts of it being unnecessarily risky. what if a PR was a target? if the PR claimed because they thought they were going to die then he exposed a PR to the mafia and we gain nothing from it really. even with how it turned out, at best we ended up gaining/losing nothing. maybe there is something I missed so, I ask again, what others think about the plan? am I just crazy/overly cautious/reading too much into it? or am I right?

[hahonryuu]

UNVOTE: empking obviously my vote did nothing to change his habits and while it still seems like active lurking to me <even though this is apparently the way he always is> and I still don't like it, but clearly the vote isn't going anywhere atm.


I guess after empking, after sleeping on it and the like, I wouldn't mind a timeater lynch. I mean he even admits to have been doing scummy things and saying he should be lynched. there is a nagging feeling somewhere deep deep down telling me he's being honest...but that doesn't excuse it I suppose. anyway, with him being so close to lynch I wont actually vote atm since it is still pretty early in the day and putting him back at L-1 doesn't seem too pro right now.

[hahonryuu]

I agree with Link that explanations for timeaters reads would be very nice indeed. at the very least seeing his thought process and why he believes those things could help quite a bit.

Also nice to see that, even if not as suspicious of it as I am that someone else recognizes that zdeneks fake Vig is...weird. I mean I've kinda dropped it since maru's post responding to me about it, but it really seems like the risks outweigh the benefits. out of all the players in the game, chances of hitting a town, or worse, a town PR were higher than scum


also something that recently came to mind <maybe im thinking about it too much>, what if they are both scum and they planned on doing that so maru could "claim" and have us all believe he's town because he claimed town under pressure of death, thus we auto assume town <to an extent at least>...but problem being that, for me at least, it worked and I don't wanna lynch maru. but that's nothing but an after thought atm with so little to go on..

long story short its good that at least I'm not the only one questioning the Vig. on some level at least. same with empkings lack of doing...anything. openly at least. good to know my brain isn't completely useless in a game of mafia.

[hahonryuu]

@Regfan:

for starters, as Link said, I'm a guy. Avatar is a guy. Under my avatar it says "Gender: male" >_> just sayin

secondly, I sort of apologize for the fluff in my wall before. I say sort of only because its just basically how I do things. its...me. basically I was typing it up as I was ISOing so my thoughts were basically being formed as a go. I figure if, if anything, it would be a plus to be able to see my thought process on some level.

it is really nice to see that, fully agreed or not, people don't think im crazy for saying what I did about Zdeneks fake Vig thing. I'm still kinda new at this, the majority of my experience comes from doing this with my friends in real life, with is much different from playing with strangers on a forum. this is just the second game on site I have. twas a newbie game. chose not to do a newbie game again because it seems like its difficult sorting out what is a scum tell and whats a townie making a mistake tell...this seems like ti will be a better experience for me regardless of how it turns out.

it seems like most people either didnt read my wall, or just read the section that was on them, that or they read and chose not to comment. so that makes me feel...iffy. as though maybe my reads and thoughts on my reads aren't very good. hearing feed back of any kind that isnt necessarily negative is a great moral boost. so again, good to at least know my head is at least somewhat in the right place. I shall be very disheartened if you and link flip scum. thats all i need...the only people not thinking my thoughts are worth commenting on flipping scum. that will make me feel about as good as my original top read from my last game flipping cop...and my next read being the jail keeper =/

oh, arent I advertising myself well

anyway, just popping in for that really. I just got off work about an hour ago and im too tired to do much else atm. I'll post something more substantial tomorrow. promise. I just wanted to read what had happened while I was at work and wanted to...i dunno, express my gratitude.

[hahonryuu]

also something that recently came to mind <maybe im thinking about it too much>, what if they are both scum and they planned on doing that so maru could "claim" and have us all believe he's town because he claimed town under pressure of death, thus we auto assume town <to an extent at least>...but problem being that, for me at least, it worked and I don't wanna lynch maru. but that's nothing but an after thought atm with so little to go on..

long story short its good that at least I'm not the only one questioning the Vig. on some level at least. same with empkings lack of doing...anything. openly at least. good to know my brain isn't completely useless in a game of mafia.

Impossible. He may have planned to do it as scum or town for whatever reason, I don't really care, but collaboration between the two of us is impossible.

There was no N0, scum-talk phase of this game. The thread opened at 5:20, we all received role PMs between 5:20 and 5:45, and at 5:45 he opened confirmation, in-thread. There would have been no time for the scum to plan anything together pre-game, no matter who you suspect the scum-team of being.

Quicktopic could have been open prior to PMs, he could have sent scum PMs first, and discussion might have been open during in-thread confirmation since it was the confirmation phase. If what you say is true, I count about 37 minutes that could have contained discussion.

Lets not play outguess the mod m'kay? The quicktopic COULD have been made before the game totally correct. But guess what, scum get the quicktopic link, in their role PMs. Role PMs (for me at least, maybe yours is different. Since you say you think the QT was already opened when game started, maybe you got a role PM an hour before the game started so you could see the QT?) were sent out AFTER the game started. IE: even if QT was made before game started, scum didn't know about it till after game started.

The Day officially started at 5:57. I got my role PM at about 5:30 ish. So yes, scum could have talked for 27 minutes. Which I find is TOTALLY long enough for them to come up with an elaborate day-vig the scum-partner scheme, WHEN THEY COULDN'T EVEN GUARANTEE THE SCUM PARTNER WAS GOING TO LOOK SCUMMY.

I mean lets start being realistic guys? Stop being paranoid (Link), and be realistic.

i think this is a really important sequence of posts and should be talked about more

Sir, if you see something so important that you think it needs talking about, i suggest getting the ball rolling yourself.

[hahonryuu]

seriously thinking the forum is out to get me

leave for work, everything is dandy. come home from work to find a locked thread -_-

but thats ok, i have another game im playing. "*next day* off to work...and come home to a locked thread. curse you! i blame maru and empking. those are the only two things the games share clearly they are bad luck.

anyway, wow. looks like i have some catching up to do.

Guys.

After ISOing Tick I'm 100% Link is scum

. He might try to claim some vla bullshit too.

Vote: Link

Before we all hop on nintendo because it feels like scumbus, I think we might need to BACK IT UP A NOTCH. The last three people who voted Tick are all guilty of being scummy - but lets not to be TOO QUICK to be led on this one.

I want this to be a

really

long day.

TS: Nightkill analysis?

do we want a vig claim(if that's the case)?

I'll answer that in a few pages.

lol. I orchestrated the Tick wagon. I called him scum after his FIRST FUCKING POST. I was CONSTANTLY ON HIM. If you really think I would bus my partner like that D1 under the pretense that I felt I had to because of the VT claim, - lol.

You call it a bus pattern because of what Maruchan posted earlier. Which is pattently UNTRUE btw. Only morons would push their scumpartners so hard D1 then never got off their shit when push comes to shove. If anything, the most prominent PATTERN is that of the late-bussing scum, not this strange fantasy you seem to be pushing.

Still putting together my thoughts on why I think Link is scum.

@TS - Nintendo, Ank, and DJ now to some extent, but its weak.

Uhm, dats what I said? I said either the first votes or last votes on the wagon, and called the last votes on yesterdays wagon the scum. So, you're agreeing with me... while calling me wrong?

Why? How else better to get town cred than to be on the Day one wagon into scumville? And of the people on the wagon, the votes most likely to be scum-bussing are those at the beginning or those towards the end.

and tim responds with a "i'm getting pressured, better put my vote on scum" vote. this is classic.

I'm not quite sure I get you are saying but this is what I was drawing the connection to when addressing DJ. I disagree that initial votes on scum D1 are scummy. D2+ I can see where that bit of VCA would be fine, but D1 its just sillybad. Most D1 scumbusses are born out of desperation, not some devilish trollfactor.

@TS: To put it shortly before I write a few paragraphs about it (unlike reg I cannot just spew them out willynilly),

most of my read on Link is gut

(therefore more easily dismissed), but other parts of it factor into understanding the Tick based on how he reacted to several of my questions.

And my read on Ank is a combination of me not liking his late vote on Tick + his general lack of content towards the end of the day. Plus him saying he didn't get ANYTHING from Tick's ISO.

0_o what happened to that 100% certainty? how is a gut feeling 100%? also hypocrite much calling someone out of "VLA bullshit". and no, that last part has nothing to do with any case against you, just pointing out that you of all people shouldn't be calling someone else out non VLA shenanigans.

also i was damn curious and ISO'd tick. afterall, we have a 100% scum on our hands, I wanted to find that murdering sonuv- wait...where exactly in ticks ISO does it confirm link as scum? cuz they had a super tiny amount of interaction. I'm generally not one for defending players, and im not doing this in defense of Link necessarily...I'm just calling BS here. I am VERY interested in your case here. also:

also something that recently came to mind <maybe im thinking about it too much>, what if they are both scum and they planned on doing that so maru could "claim" and have us all believe he's town because he claimed town under pressure of death, thus we auto assume town <to an extent at least>...but problem being that, for me at least, it worked and I don't wanna lynch maru. but that's nothing but an after thought atm with so little to go on..

long story short its good that at least I'm not the only one questioning the Vig. on some level at least. same with empkings lack of doing...anything. openly at least. good to know my brain isn't completely useless in a game of mafia.

Impossible. He may have planned to do it as scum or town for whatever reason, I don't really care, but collaboration between the two of us is impossible.

There was no N0, scum-talk phase of this game. The thread opened at 5:20, we all received role PMs between 5:20 and 5:45, and at 5:45 he opened confirmation, in-thread. There would have been no time for the scum to plan anything together pre-game, no matter who you suspect the scum-team of being.

Quicktopic could have been open prior to PMs, he could have sent scum PMs first, and discussion might have been open during in-thread confirmation since it was the confirmation phase. If what you say is true, I count about 37 minutes that could have contained discussion.

Lets not play outguess the mod m'kay? The quicktopic COULD have been made before the game totally correct. But guess what, scum get the quicktopic link, in their role PMs. Role PMs (for me at least, maybe yours is different. Since you say you think the QT was already opened when game started, maybe you got a role PM an hour before the game started so you could see the QT?) were sent out AFTER the game started. IE: even if QT was made before game started, scum didn't know about it till after game started.

The Day officially started at 5:57. I got my role PM at about 5:30 ish. So yes, scum could have talked for 27 minutes. Which I find is TOTALLY long enough for them to come up with an elaborate day-vig the scum-partner scheme, WHEN THEY COULDN'T EVEN GUARANTEE THE SCUM PARTNER WAS GOING TO LOOK SCUMMY.

I mean lets start being realistic guys? Stop being paranoid (Link), and be realistic.

i think this is a really important sequence of posts and should be talked about more

what is aid yesterday still stands. if this is so important and should be talked about more, why didn't YOU talk about it instead of leaving us to speculate wtf you meant by it needing to be talked about more?

sounds to me like you keep saying things to make it look like you are active without actually doing anything pro town yourself. you have a "100% scum" that turns out is just a gut read. yesterday you point out what is apparently a really important conversation that needs to be talked about...then proceed to not talk about it or even explain what is so important.

VOTE: timeater until i get some satisfactory answers. I also agree with the case against nintendo but this one is smaller with a less likely chance of a a surprise hammer. oh wait, nintendo is the suspect of that wagon, so i guess there wouldn't be any surprise hammers anyway

[hahonryuu]

wow, were they really both at 1 vote eah when i voted? nintendo's was clearly smaeer than i thought. must have skimmed over some unvotes

[hahonryuu]

Wow, were they really both at one vote each when I voted? Nintendo's was clearly smaller than I thought. Must have skimmed over some unvotes.*

[hahonryuu]

dj confirmed dumb

@ryuu

Nothing is certain in mafia. My read on Tick was mostly gut and that was 100%. My gut is good. Dealing with other people: not so much good. When I say 100% its mostly bravado, an attempt to draw either of them out to attack me or question me why. My read on Emp was obviously wrong. And that read generally was a result me me not being able to come to grips with his playstyle.

Link isn't the type of player to make blatant mistakes as scum. He's too good. He's too slippery. Slippery I think is the best way to describe him. Unlike TS, who is obvtown to the umpth degree, Link has this faintly calculated air about him that makes him hard to pin down and hard to label. This quality forged my initial suspicions of him. When I was going back and looking at the way Tick was playing, I wanted to try to understand Tick - as a player. That is how my play is evolving. I look at how a player IS. I take in all their little eccentricities as data then use that data to look for fakeness. And fakeness isn't always a scumtell - sometimes I've been fake as town. Knowing how skilled a player is helpful for looking for this.

Link exhibits a very skilled style - some players have even complimented him about it. But that skilled air doesn't seem to jive with legit scumhunting or legit towniness. Its feels fake to me for several reasons (not going to post a walls as I fell walls are anti-town)

next post!

I disagree, walls aren't anti-town. Just anti-people who don't know how to read or just don't like to read. And since most people are dumb...


Anyway, you didn't address the latter part of my post at all and would still very much like some answers/input on that. And to me it just seems like you are backtracking. First he's 100%, then gut, and when called out on it you go "Nothing is certain in mafia, and that it was just "bravado".

One thing I do agree on however...Link is good and if he does happen to be mafia, I know it is highly unlikely that I personally will catch him. He would need to screw up hardcore for me to do it. We are certainly in trouble if he is mafia. However, that being said, it's no reason to say you have something on him 100% when its just gut...gut are generally based off nothing but feeling and don't really have anything, or very little, to back them up with. To call a gut read 100%, bravado or not, is just going too far imo, and makes you look like a liar trying to act like he has more info than he does to look town. I'm not sure I buy it and eagerly await your case.

and again, I want answers about what was so important about that post that needed talking about.

[hahonryuu]

Come to think of it, I also still dislike zdenek's vig thing yesterday. people keep claiming a scum wouldn't do it because it "draws too much attention" or some such crap, but look at this...how much attention is on him? next to none. what would a town gain from such a plan? nothing unless they actually hit a scum. which is HIGHLY unlikely, especially so early in the day when reads were so...iffy. what does a scum gain? possibly hitting a PR which, while technically more or less the same odds as a town hitting scum, is a more beneficial attempt since scum already know who is and is not innocent. worst case scenario they confirm a town in the eyes of everyone and create a decent NK target. or, back to my potential theory before, of them "confirming" town on a mafia partner

I don't like it and I don't see how it has been written off so easily in seemingly everyones mind

so now i have a dilemma.

zdenek
maru
timeater
nintendo

in no particular order are who im mostly looking at...yet clearly they cant ALL be scum unless town has PR's out the butt...and even then, the chances seem unlikely. at best there are probably 2 here and at worst I'm super paranoid and none of them are scum

timeaters case was far from satisfactory for my tastes so i'll keep my vote there for now...but i clearly have some reading to do for the next day or so =/

[hahonryuu]

I do believe last time this was brought up we discovered that, while unlikely, there WAS potentially time for it to happen. unless i missed something.

and it doesn't need to be that elaborate

zdenek: hey guys, im gonna fake-claim vig on one of you. claim VT

sooo elaborate >_>.

relax, its not like im calling you on it for sure, im just saying a possibility. saying the possible is impossible is just silly. maybe you are scum, maybe you arent. what im mostly curious about is why town would do something that benefits the town so little and potentially risks our PR's, and yet is called town for it because a scum would never want to get all the attention such an action would give...but he never got said attention. he got it for like 2 seconds, then it died off. then i tried to bring it up. then it died off again. its gotten next to no attention so it hardly put him in the spotlight.

[hahonryuu]

@hellound

1) while our reads may be different, sure, I'm not sure I understand why you auto assume my scumhunting is "wrong". i mean technically the only person I've remotely called scummy that we know for a fact I'm wrong about was empking, and really it was more that i didn't like that it seemed as though he was active lurking. You may not agree with my reads...but to outright call them wrong?

2) you say that I'm town for scumhunting even though im "wrong", yet ankamius is lower on the list seemingly because the one he's "wrong" about is you? because you essentially say the same thing, that we were both scumhunting. why is your read on me different than his when you essentially give the same explanation.

3) wait...what? your reasons for link being on that list. seriously people, did I miss something? I realize im not the greatest at this game but come on, what in the world did link do to cause people to put them on their scum list for literally no reason? I'm not trying to out a PR or anything, but seriously timeater, if you are a PR and KNOW link is up to no good, you should probably say so because as of now you just sound like a raging lunatic. and you, hellhound, seem equally as crazy for blindly following. or did link just do something super scummy that is written in invisible text that can only be seen by someone who's been in more games than me 0_o

[hahonryuu]

4) thinking about it. WHY are you listening to one of your scum reads so intently? better yet, you seem to almost be implying you think he's a PR...why is timeater on your scum list?

[hahonryuu]

Link is good and if he does happen to be mafia, I know it is highly unlikely that I personally will catch him.

Hard-core link buddying.

No, that's not be buddying. That's me stating a fact. There's a difference.

let's go, fellas. saddle up. i've read the first four pages of the game and everyone's town and that's fantastic and i'm fantastic and hellhound1 isn't in the first four pages and he sticks out like a sore thumb on yesterday's final vote count.

so let's stop pussyfooting around and skin him alive.

Not sure if lazy, scummy, or right.

all of the above plz.

I...What?


Anyway, about to do some ISOing.

[hahonryuu]

hellhound:

Start with the man of the hour. First, it looks as though he placed that vote on timeater just to satisfy ankmius. his earlier posts often have like 100 posts in between them. lurking? in 521 <iso 5> he doesn't REALLY defend himself. he just goes "but im town...oh well whatever" basically. he then goes on to say that if TS went on to push for his lynch then TS and zdenek were good choices for scum team. sounds a bit OMGUSish. though on the other hand if he knows he's scum, trying to pin 2 people when you know that when you die no one would believe you anyway seems...odd. mild town points for that. but very mild. you then say that you can't be scum because empking thought you were town and he's dead now and as scum you would NEVER kill someone who thought you were town...

problem being that that requires us to take you at your word. oh, and 2 people died last night. what makes you so sure the mafia was the one who killed empking hmm? and killing regfan would have been the last thing you would've done? really? at the risk of sounding scummy, he would be pretty high on the list of people I would kill whether he suspected me or thought I was as town as town could be. what scum would allow a player that good to live? seems not pro. also considering you were using empking as proof first almost seems like you realized "oh crap, that makes it sound like i know for a fact which one was killed by scum and which was killed by a vig/SK. better talk about regfan too"

you didn't put much explanation into your reads. setting up for an easy flip-flop perhaps? in fact you even said they were likely to change. now im all for someone you thought was scummy proving their innocents somehow or a town all of a sudden doing something super scummy and you shouldn't ignore such things...but it just seems so indecisive. i mean im pretty indecisive myself but at least I explain myself as best I can. i'm not saying write novels like I do, but more than what you are giving would be nice

when i confront you on some problems I had with your tells, specifically why ankmius was apparently being treated more or less like null leaning scum for being "wrong" when i was town while being wrong. you claim it was because ankmius was coming after YOU. sounds a bit OMGUSy. not completely since you arent voting him and don't have him as a total scum read. but it does seem odd. you've done some iffy things in your play, he isnt the only oen to call you out on them. voting you isn't a crime.

also you sheep one of your scum reads who is going after one of your null reads...wut? and yes, even though he's on your scum list he's obviously a null read since when i confronted you about it before you said you had nothing on him and were just doing it because of timeater and you actually had no read on him.

also, even if he doesn't get back on int im for your lynch if it happends, TS is quite obviously anti you. its not like we would let him get away with saying "look guys i wasn't on his wagon" assuming you do flip town.


maybe i am just too gullible but I kind of believe you. but at the same time you have been doing/saying some shady things. null leaning scum for now.

nocase:

pretty interesting slot. first it was scum, then frustrated town, then almost obv town, and then the newest incarnation says some iffy things right away. we'll see what happends after some more posts.

don johnson:

I don't really like the way you operate but I don't think you are scum as of now. you come in and choose to openly sheep the top choice at the time, in fact you even said you didn't really think he was very scummy <near the bottom of post 350: "i never felt that strongly he was scum">. agreed with some points on timeater and nintendo, but after whats happened since, im actually thinking timeater is just a townie who is unstable IRL. speaking of which UNVOTE: timeater. honestly not sure what to make of you. you are definitely scum hunting but im not sure I care for your methods. it almost seems like you are policy lynching timeater. anyway, null leaning town

nintendo:

gotta say, even if you are right, your early defenses of me seem kinda shady. I now know I was wrong to vote for DH/ankmius/nocase the way i did...so you defending my reasoning just seems like you were trying to make them the badguy for an early mislynch and coming to the defense of, as dj put it, "poor newbie ryu". you even made a reference to a past game where DH did what he did and said that they were town. that sounds similar to ticks "i was wrong, but my logic is sound" argument before...and look what role he turned out to be. "even RVS votes have reasons"...really. random votes have reasons. sir, its random. the reasons are null and void. the "reasons" are practically there for comedic purposes a chunk of the time. I mean I was defending myself because, it was myself. but you defending me seems kind of sketchy. I also dislike that hammer. sure, it was scum, but the way it came out of nowhere is shady. and no i dont mean your suspicion came from nowhere, but the hammer itself.


theres more, not just on nintendo but on everyone in general. unfortunately im going to work .

later

[hahonryuu]

I have to say i truly dislike TS' willingness to lynch a claimed doctor. sure he came up with ideas to help "prove" the doctor later, but lets face it, nintendo is probably going to get night killed tonight anyway so proving him seems kind of moot.

[hahonryuu]

my bad, i was in a hurry when i typed that. must have forgotten to.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: TS

[hahonryuu]

I'm not saying I dont find nintendo scummy, but attacking a claimed PR just seems so iffy. with my <admittedly limited> experience, its generally seen as not a very pro thing to do.

[hahonryuu]

That's entirely debatable. You used a breadcrumb and could have easily argued that there were 2 Docs in the game. Taking out a Doc when there is no guarantee that you will be taken out isn't that bad.

1) I breadcrumbed because I was doc. Link me to a game where mafia breadcrumb. It doesn't occur to them
2) easily argued there were 2 docs? How? It could be broken
3) there was a guarantee I'd go. Purely because no setup any of us had ever seen had 2 docs before. they're broken. even don and the others said I'd be lynched as should nintendo flip town

yet when i claimed doc I had no-idea nintendo was a white mage

all he had claimed was doc

that doesn't matter what you knew at the time, thats how it ended up, thus link is correct, that argument is invalid. if you truly believe its still valid then you may as well just claim scum since if having 2 docs is so broken as you claim then you can't be doc =/

but please, continue to think that argument is still valid.

[hahonryuu]

So timeater, answer me this. you are convinced Link is the SK correct? yet you want mass claim. a claim that potentially puts any other PR's we may or may not have at risk from both the SK and mafia.

lets say you are dicking around and don't really think he's the SK like the last time you "suspected" him <only to call him 100% town later>...you want a mass claim with the possibility of us having a vigilante. you realize that, assuming the vig goes along with it and claims for real and doesn't just say VT, the vig will then definitely die or become inf role blocked right?


I can't tell if scum or just stupid...

your plan doesn't help town at all. if it does, clearly im totally retarded on top of being apparently the worst player known to man and need you to explain. now.

but i suppose here's where you call me scum for disagreeing with your plan and wanting you to explain, right? god forbid you explain your plans to the town so we freaking work with you and get them done instead of just roll our eyes at you and treat you like the VI/a scum suspect.

if you are town, then start acting like it and cooperate

and nocase, you know what irresponsible and disgraceful? locking down a slot with someone who isn't participating and who apparently doesn't even want to play anymore instead of passing it on to someone who might actually want to. if you really don't want to play anymore then replace out, having someone who is only there 1/2 hearted isn't going to help town either.

[hahonryuu]

fact of the matter is, you aren't CC him, and I'm not CC him...so the chances of him being vig/SK is pretty high. if he is, mafia or the real vig/SK will take care of him tonight. if he isn't we can always take care of him later. lets face it, telling the truth or lying, Link is dead. he has little to gain from a claim like this.

so for now I'll go with it

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Zdenek

[hahonryuu]

wow I worded that wrong :p

I meant

"if he is real, the mafia will take care of him tonight. and if he isn't then we or the vig/sk can take care of him" haha

[hahonryuu]

You should have been lynched on the day I was lynched. Nocase should not have been lynched.

Iknowrite

i made the impossible possible

even the simplest town should realise 2 docs is very odd

most everyone did. problem being timeater apparently didnt and other people who were easier to lynch kept doing scummy things. its not like no one was calling you scum =/

[hahonryuu]

I fakeclaimed commuter in a setup with a known doc once

I was instalynched because of it (to be fair i was going down anyways)

if a town can realise a commuter + doc is wrong then 2 docs (even one strong doc) is truly mad for town not to see is broken

the scuminess of other players doesn't hide the fact that 2 docs is mad

im not denying you should have been lynched, especially when nintendo wasnt just doc but super doc, and im not denying that people did stupid stuff this game. im just saying you werent exactly off peoples radar and a few of your posts suggest that you seem to think everyone totally bought your claim...which a good chunk didn't.

[hahonryuu]

Guess one things for certain...we all went to vegas and many of us come out feeling ashamed. hopefully this wont ruin the opinions of some people to others. that wouldnt really be fair. afterall, what happens in vegas, stays in vegas

[hahonryuu]

btw if theres any awards for worst lines ever, i better have just won it.