Mini 1221: Vegas Mafia (Over!)

[Zdenek]

/confirm

[Zdenek]

hahryuu is new, so I don't care about his early vote. DH's response to it is reasonable. It was quite a townie way to start the game. It got us out of RVS quickly and it was aggressive.

But there's just one thing about what you did... you voted for someone without any logic or reasoning at all(RVS logic or not) and in the RVS that is scummy.

There is no reason why failing to provide RVS reasoning should be scummy. This is dumb scum making up a reason to say something is scummy.

Also, it is way too early to be calling anyone scum. Seriously, we're on page one.

No, it's not.

apparently not.

but that doesn't make me scum.

that means I don't understand RVS. Besides, why thank you for ending RVS with a vote on someone with no explanation? if you are going to end it, wouldn't it be better to do it with a vote that has, i dunno...something to go off of? I saw something shifty and i address it. I'm sorry if there's something wrong with calling out a shifty action. I was under the assumption that's how things get done in here =/

Scum caught for the wrong reason.

VOTE: NintendoAddict

[Zdenek]

First of all, the probability that an RVS wagon on scum gets driven up to L-2 like that is close to 0, so lynching DH for his attack on hohanryuu would be stupid.

As far as DH complementing other players goes, yes it appears in LG guide to playing scum, but town can do it too, so I don't care too much about it. The bottom line is that DH is scum hunting, so we'll be able to figure out if he's town or not.

As far as timeater goes,

Not defending or attacking, just disagreeing. (OMG Timeater overly cautious and nervous scum!)

Is scummy - he takes the trouble to point out that he's being cautious, reacting to accusations of scumminess before they come, which stifles them.

Demon, a question for you. Why did you take it upon yourself to answer my request in #26 then proceed to not really say anything?

1. You say you dont have a meta but contradict yourself by saying you play quietly as scum.
2. "Go review my games" is not an adequate response to my post in #26 by any standard. So why even say it.

The contradictions here are apparent - accuses him of not saying anything, and then criticizes what he did say. Moreover a list of games is good response to someone asking for meta.

Also, self-provided meta is pointless, and I'll be ignoring all of it that's been provided.

(and ftr, I think Nintendo's play matches his meta of town. It's an interesting meta, but one I believe he sticks too. *see band mafia)

Explain.

You realize that post was from hahonryuu, right?

Oh. ooops. Well then hryuu is very likely scum.

At the moment, I think that both Timeater and hahonryuu look bad. I'm going to go with the former for now.

Unvote
Vote Timeater

Mod: I was voting NA.

[Zdenek]

First of all, the probability that an RVS wagon on scum gets driven up to L-2 like that is close to 0, so lynching DH for his attack on hohanryuu would be stupid.

no

I was exaggerating, but after a quick look through completed mini-normals in the queue, leading early wagons seems to have a less than random chance of being on scum, so my point stands.

I'm catching up right now, but that last quote was not me.

Yes, I know. It's been caught.

What are your thoughts on Link? What are your reads on him?

Comments like "let's see how you react now that the pressure is on" always ping my gut scumdar hard. When they are built into votes, they provide scum an easy means of unvoting because they can say that they were voting for pressure. It especially looks bad in the context of Link's post because he also voted for a real reason.

He does very little in the way of scum hunting. Mostly he critics and argues against points that others are making without really expressing his own thoughts. In 11 he excuses himself from not pushing DH's lynch, which I don't really like, but he does push it subtly by saying "I'm sure we'll see more pressure on him once other players start coming in and reading him."

He's as scummy as can be.

Unvote
Vote: Hikari Link

[Zdenek]

Hardly, sir. That's merely my playstyle. But I'm sure you'll see that as time goes on, so I'm not particularly worried.

Phew that's a relief. Having compared this to Mafia in Canada (which is completed), that seems to be at least a little true. Plus the Timeater vote is great.

What I have to say about Timeater:

Since self provided meta is always garbage, Timeater should just be taking what DH said about himself and comparing it to what others say. His choice to attack him over providing meta that wasn't good enough, looks like an attempt to discredit DH without really calling him scummy for it.

After your blatant misrepping/floundering/desperation I'd like to see you lynched. Unlike Link I am not going to give you a pass, especially after the quote at the top of this post. 4. I set up nothing. I merely asked for a meta citation on your playstyle. You are attempting to create this elaborate construction of a "meta argument" where there is none. The only architect is you. You got super aggressive early game, you are going to draw the inquisitional eye. Get over it, sister.

If you're scum, and you're playing aggressively to start, you are going to be aware that you will attract attention, and react to it accordingly. On the other hand, if you're town and you do it, and then you attract negative attention, you might act exactly as DH did - Timeater fails to consider this.

I agree with what others have said about Timeater not being impressed with the VT claim - another time when he disparages DH to push his lynch without calling him scummy.

Demon I didn't want to be a dick. . . . Its just one man's opinion.

The story of blathering scum.

Unvote
Vote Timeater

[Zdenek]

NOT vote Timeater, I just think that ank is being more pro-town than DH ever was (yes, by attacking me)

Could you change this into a sentence please.

I dunno...to unvote a guy based on you suddenly thinking he's just a shitty townsman? Where they do that at?

If your read on someone changes from scum to town (shitty or not) on someone of course you unvote. I have little doubt that Timeater thinks or knows that DH isn't mafia, but he needs to come back and explain how his read changed more clearly. His "inner realization" explanation is too vague for me to tell if he's being genuine or not.

[Zdenek]

Could you change this into a sentence please.

I think its perfectly readable and understandable as is. what are you having difficulties with?

Are you telling us to not vote Timeater? What does that NOT Timeater have to do with ank?

[Zdenek]

NOT vote Timeater, I just think that ank is being more pro-town than DH ever was (yes, by attacking me)

Could you change this into a sentence please.

I dunno...to unvote a guy based on you suddenly thinking he's just a shitty townsman? Where they do that at?

If your read on someone changes from scum to town (shitty or not) on someone of course you unvote.

When I say "where they do that at?", the question is more along the lines of "What would possess a Goon to do that?"

Goon sees town player react to something, and thinks to himself, if I was town, I would perceive that as a townie reaction. Then goon unvotes, predicting the eventually collapse of the wagon, and looks pro-town for picking up quickly on the town-tell from his previous suspect.

[Zdenek]

To do something that clever then follow it up with something so off-base just don't add up.

His fight with DH was in large part because of his mudflinging, which is quite scummy. The fight itself probably says little about his alignment. He needs to explain better how his read changed, and "I think he's a bad player" isn't good enough. I want to know the posts and thoughts behind how he changed his mind, so I can get a read on him.

[Zdenek]

vig: Maruchan

[Zdenek]

The only thing that I will say at this point is that Timeater is online and not commenting. His failure to react gives him massive scum points and he's a fantastic lynch for today.

[Zdenek]

Well Maruchan is probably town and I wish he hadn't claimed.
Link is continues to be null.
NintendoAddict is attacking whatever he can see.
To Link

You know he's a townie? Wow.

To Twistedspoon

So, everyone should claim right now because you don't like that you don't know our roles?

Timeater did say something, how did I miss this:

cool some action, btw zde and dh prob have a linked alivnment - writingb this oon a wii lol

Frankly, it looks like in game communication between scum buddies.

Hi Ankamius, whoever you are.

I'm not a day-vig.

[Zdenek]

Oh, and I don't care about Timeater's V/LA to calm down.

[Zdenek]

Oh, and I see NintendoAddict has apologized for his attack on TS.

[Zdenek]

This sequence of posts would not be uttered by town.

Like in DH's case most of his motivations are good.

cool some action, btw zde and dh prob have a linked alivnment - writingb this oon a wii lol

I think DH is town . . . person who I think is town is of linked alignment with some other person.

Timeater has to die.

[Zdenek]

Except, when I Was scum my mod told me that day-communications between scum in any form of code were EXPRESSLY not allowed, and in order for them to make this code, they would have had to talk about it in the QT, where the mod would have told them it wasn't allowed? Does that make sense?

I am not saying that it is a code. My point is that Timeater is suggesting that DH and I are connected by alignment, which essentially means that he thinks we are scum or town together. On top of that, he said that he thinks that DH is town. If he was town, and thought that he figured out a mason pair, he would have kept his mouth shut. He didn't. So he is scum making sure to let his buddy know what he noticed.

[Zdenek]

zdenek: not sure I understand the vote on "me" on 77 <ISO 1>. i mean for all intents and purposes the vote WAS meant for me.

What you said can be interpreted as a scum-slip. I'm not scum for . . . can be scum complaining that he's been caught for doing something that he doesn't think is scummy. That said, I've also seen it coming from town.

what exactly is he telling his buddy he noticed? that you and DH are the same alignment? but scum already know everyones alignment...why would he need to tell a scum buddy that? I don't think I follow you here. please tell me if im missing something

I think the only way two towns people can be alignment connected at this point in the game is if they are masons otherwise two towns people do not have that information about each other.

Well, I'm not going to be able to get a read of DJ, if he's not going to read the thread. I guess I'm willing to wait to do it though because I already know who I want dead today and presumably he'll react to things that happen from now on.

The ticks attacks on Timeater are pretty terrible:

Timeater is starting to post some vague, off-kilter, random sounding shit. Granted that happens A LOT in the early phases, but still...it's off-putting, given the strange stuff he's been doing all game.

He expresses suspicion of him and a willingness to vote him, but doesn't outright say that anything he's doing is scummy. This could either be scum semi-busing while trying to keep the heat down on a scum buddy or scum trying to stay off a townie lynch. I lean to the former.

I'll be straight up. I've been scummy as fuck this game.

At least you know why you're being lynched.

I've said a lot of dumb shit. About Demon - because of the way he construed his arguments, the way he put together his cases - I felt they lacked any sort of empiricism, utterly rooted in passion, and ultimately holding up a sort of "I'm right-your-wrong-no-matter-what" style of logic. He was playing like a medieval inquisitor who wants his witch burned no matter the cost, no matter if he's wrong or right. Evidence of this could be gleaned from one of his first posts, where he says "Town acts like X all the time, Scum acts like Y all the time". I dont normally have split-second changes of heart, but since I did, and I rolled with it - I faced the consequences. My unvoting of demon was strange and should have been questioned. I am not 100% he isn't scum. I'd say I'm 51%.

You attacked DH for not providing meta well enough and for attacking ryuu in RVS, so this seems to be a misinterpretation of your own reasons for attacking him. Plus you still aren't really saying that he's done anything scummy.

I dont like the way Zdenek has chainsawed for Demon. He's pretty much done it all game. I feel that either Demon is town and Zdenek is scum OR they are both scum. Zdenek was too quick to agree to my post about him being linked with Demon. He held on to it and used it greedily. The way he hopped from me to link then back to me again with the reasoning of a turnip. Trying to mollify Demon with an apology is apparently "the story of blathering scum". His vig was transparent as fuck. If wanted to gambit to get more information, it should NOT have been on Maruchan. I was his number #1 suspect, remember? He tried to justify it with "oh Timeater isn't RESPONDING HE MUST BE SCUM" - what a retarded line of reasoning. Another example of him ammunition-gathering instead of posting with real consequence.

The chain-saw defense is not a scum-tell.
Being quick to notice a scum-slip is not scummy.
Most of my reasoning behind voting for link turns out to be part of his play style, and I was willing to forgive him for it because his vote was in a good place.

I'll finish reading the things from yesterday later.

[Zdenek]

Tick, I've found that making soft attacks is a pretty good scum-tell. For instance, accusing someone of saying things that are off-kilter qualifies as a soft-attack.

I took a quick look at Hiraki Link's only completed game, where he was town, and there it seems that he also spent quite a lot of time arguing over the details of what people are saying. That played some role my decision to unvote him, but he also moved his vote to Timeater, which is something that I agreed with and wanted to co-operate with.

[Zdenek]

I think what you're saying is, downgrading from intelligent discussion to stream of consciousness posting (when you're the main target of the lynch) is a flabby tell that only a Goon would try to use to ingratiate themselves with the lynch party.

And that don't add up to me.

No. The problem with softy attacking someone is that it is a way of pushing their lynch, without really committing to it (scum to this to push for mislynches without actually being in on them), or to agree with the lynch of one of their buddies without pushing it (to distance themselves from them).

Now we have sk hunting from Timeater.

if you were an sk this game, what would your gameplan be? answer honestly plz

it seems like most people either didnt read my wall, or just read the section that was on them, that or they read and chose not to comment.

I read it, decided that a lot of it was unnecessary, but that it looked like you were trying, and my gut said that it was probably coming from an honest place, so I decided to not bother commenting.

I'm having a tough time understanding these arguments about Timeater being town. I essentially view him as having scum-slipped hard and needing to be lynched. That is basically the only thing from regfan's reads posts that I don't understand.

Mod: I'm moving and I'll be V/LA until Tuesday. If things go well, I'll be back sooner.

[Zdenek]

Responding to a prod. I might be able to post later today, but at worst within twenty-four hours.

[Zdenek]

So I've read up.

Timeater is town because I don't think he was bussing Tick.

Hellhound is scum because he's trusting a scum read in forming his own reads, which is obviously bullshit, and just a way to justify a convenient read. This by the way means that Link is town.

NintendoAddict is scum because an unjustified quick hammer implies that he didn't think that he was going to be called out for it, so that he knew it would be on scum.
----------------------------------

@ Zdenek - Explain the scum motivation for claiming VT and then proceeding to push on someone that isn't Fos'ed by anyone else in the game for me please.

Scum claim VT all the time, the motivation is to try to avoid being lynched. For instance, they avoid counterclaims. As far as this lynch pushing business goes, it could be to protect a scum buddy by pushing somewhere else, it could be just to try to get a mislynch, it could be to stay off of major wagons to avoid being caught by vote count analysis.

Timeater, willing to explain your change of read on Link more coherently?

TS, can you direct me to another game where you tired to use NK analysis?

Link isn't the type of player to make blatant mistakes as scum. He's too good. He's too slippery. Slippery I think is the best way to describe him.

How do you know this?

Link is good and if he does happen to be mafia, I know it is highly unlikely that I personally will catch him.

Hard-core link buddying.

I really dont like Zde's lurking today.

I was V/LA because I was moving.

In fact,

Mod: My prod should be rescinded, since I was on V/LA until yesterday.

I need to put some more thought into what has happened today before voting.

[Zdenek]

Vote: Hellhound

[Zdenek]

Crtl+F'ing my past game Iso's for the words 'vca' I found this one

I asked about night kill analysis, not vote count analysis.

Holy crap, TS, why don't you push the lynch a little harder?

Unvote, Vote: TS

Nintendo is attacking Twistedspoon for absolutely no reason.

I feel your vote on me is opportunistic.

Exactly what opportunity do you think he was trying to cash in on?

Plain and simple, there's no reason to lynch a PR that has not been counter-claimed in this situation. Nothing to be gained. I might be able to whip up a plan to make him useful. That's kind of my specialty, actually. Also, seems like a fairly legit claim. What scum really claims Doctor? There's so many more PRs that people actually give a fuck about and wouldn't just straight-out lynch.

To out the real doctor.

I would not bet on there being two doctors.

opinions?

If Nintendo is the doctor he'll probably be nightkilled because the scum can't risk having their nightkills blocked later in the game when they might have to shoot confirmed town. Plus scum could have a roleblocker. I do not think we should do this.

Nintendo's claim does nothing for me.

[Zdenek]

We lynched scum day one, we'll lynch scum today or tomorrow. If Nintendo flips scum, HL is nigh on confirmed town, TS will be confirmed town tomorrow or dead or will be tomorrows lynch. I see no reason for there to be a mass-claim now. If you want to convince me that it's a good idea, you'll have to give some sort of reason for it.

Unvote
Vote Nintendo

[Zdenek]

zdnek, am I dod or doc to you?

It depends on how wide I make my window. In full screen, you are doc.

I don't care about the crumb. Nintendo was scummy, so he dies. If he flips town, we lynch you tomorrow unless there is some new compelling reason to do otherwise.

I'm really having a hard time seeing Timeater as town.

[Zdenek]

What the fuck?

[Zdenek]

Nintendo, I want full details about your protection works.

[Zdenek]

Nintendo, I want full details about your protection works.

I protect someone for two consecutive nights. I can do this every night.

So after the first night, if your not dead, two people will be protected each night?

[Zdenek]

Unvote

[Zdenek]

I've thought about things, and I've decided that I do not believe Nintendo's claim. A powerful doc like he is would probably not have drawn attention to himself day one by hammering tick without giving a reason.

Vote Nintendo

[Zdenek]

I think his role falls within the mini-normal guidelines. It's just an overpowered protective role. I just don't think he's playing like one at all.

[Zdenek]

secondly, white mage is a new role to me, but that's just it. Scum usually play safe and claim roles that are actually known. This claim is 100% town
in fact, nintendo going back on his doc claim to say white mage is even more town as scum don't go back on their claims at all. It's too scummy

my vote stays on hellhound.

you have this backwards. he's making this shit up. this is the normal forum. i don't think obscure roles rear their head here. the two mafia neighbors in mathemafia is not the norm. most likely, nintendo claimed doc, outed you, realized he's still going to get lynched and so is now making a last ditch effort to buy himself some time. whether or not he read your crumb properly is irrelevant and maru is scummy for making a big deal out of it. just hammer nintendo. living players can clean this mess up tomorrow. claiming white mage is by no means suicide. not claiming white mage and trying to play off two docs is suicide. nintendo is trying not to die and he's also offering up a reason why link won't be dead tomorrow. link/nintendo ain't unheard of. put on your big boy pants and do this.

Hey zdnek, weren't you a role called an 'echo' once In a mini normal we were in together?

If so could you hold that thought a sec.

Yes, I was.

[Zdenek]

wow. another crappy reason to vote a claimed protective role. if nintendo slips sk we can throw zdenek/maru into the scumpudding. but i'll take it.

spoon: stop being such a wet blanket. you do realize that if he flips town then you are getting lynched tomorrow? everything you do from here on out screws us 100% if you are both town. so man up and hammer.

I've thought Nintendo was scummy for awhile now. I unvoted because I wanted a second to look things over because of how fast the wagon was going, and decided that I was fine with his lynch after all. You are just flinging shit everywhere right now.

TS, I think the role is fine and looking at the mini-normal guidelines I think it's fine. I just don't think Nintendo is telling the truth.

I think Timeater's arguing based on flavor is what has no place in a normal game.

[Zdenek]

if you were scum, claiming white mage AND after already claiming doc would be pretty close to the worst thing possible to do

Not if you were counter-claimed as a doc and were going to end up being the lynch because the person who counter-claimed you breadcrumbed his role.

[Zdenek]

This is garbage. Adding just a role-blocker would not solve the problems for scum this setup would create.

[Zdenek]

Yes, scum could have a lot of power to make up for the two protective roles.

I still don't think a "white mage" hammers like Nintendo did.

[Zdenek]

Vote Twistedspoon

This is the only rational move for the day.

[Zdenek]

@Zdenek: Care to rationalize that for the rest of us?

Super-doc plus doc is broken, so TS dies.

[Zdenek]

1. Zdenek - town
4. Hellhound1
5. Timeater - prob town
6. Hikari Link
7. hahonryuu - prob town
10. Twistedspoon
12. Maruchan - prob town
13. Nocase (who replaced Ankamius, who replaced DemonHybrid) - probtown.

If we lynch Hellhound, Link and Twistedspoon we win.

[Zdenek]

I don't believe Hickory's claim.

Vote Link

[Zdenek]

Here's why I don't believe it by the way.

Zdenek: Seems townish, but he's still done nothing for the town of particular value. Nonetheless, he could be the Vig and so we can't lynch him yet.

zdenek, lets not split up our bandwaggons now. -.-

Hmmmm, I'll stick with Link for the time being.

[Zdenek]

Also, his reasons for killing Empking look like scum trying to justify a kill rather than just taking out the person he is most suspicious of.

Also, this sort of reactive statement designed to cut off conversation is scum bread and butter

. . . . because I can almost hear Zdenek calling us scum right now.

[Zdenek]

Hikari is scum making shit up.

[Zdenek]

My lynch would be profoundly stupid at this point. TS is likely scum because LOL 2 docs and Link's claim is not coming from town.

If Link was town, considering that he's not voting TS, he'd be afraid of their being great scum power, and wouldn't have claimed now risking being role-blocked or killed. He's scum. No doubt.

[Zdenek]

If Hikari is town he's a disgrace and the fact that people are listening to him is shocking
Anyway this lynch is just as reasonable.

unvote
vote ts[\b]

[Zdenek]

unvote
vote ts

[Zdenek]

Well this was a travesty.

[Zdenek]

I think town played terribly this game.

[Zdenek]

You should have been lynched on the day I was lynched. Nocase should not have been lynched.