Mini 425 Generic Western Mafia- Game over!
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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Vel is right that my hunch about gorckat is probably off, but one way I try to start out a game is figure out one person I can be pretty sure of trusting - and this game gorckat seems legit.
Forgive me for being skeptical, but that sure looks like a good way to "buy" the other person's trust if you aren't on the town's side...although I presume you generally don't run up to 'em and give this reasoning
Didn't mustafa vote John for having the shortest name? Seeing DLMF, I call crap-logic on mustafa!-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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[quote=Guardian]I've read up a little and it seems that casting a die, doing an actual random vote, and requesting that everyone follow it is the pro-townie thing to do. [/quote]
What games did you read this in? It is a behavior I haven't seen.
Avinyl- the too townie thing is a bit of a stretch.
Ichigo- Why does John not seem to be finding scum? You've posted less than he has...-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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I might end up with a few posts back to back here- I'm at work and skimming individual posters' posts and will put forth any questions I have when I have them.
Setting aside that Guardian did use the dice tag, I fail to see how the number you would select proves that Guardian chose it deliberately.Vryklan wrote:There is no proof he actualy rolled a dice to pick raffles, it's just too much of a coincidence that he had already had a go at raffles and then "oh look the dice picked raffles"; i dont believe it for a second.
In fact if i was making up a random d12 result 11 is the number i would have gone for too which reinforces my point.
Vote: Guardian-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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I'll restate my question a third time:
@Vryklan: How come the fact that you would choose the number 11 prove your suspicion of Guardian when you voted him (see post 107)?
FoS: Vryklanfor not answering it yet.
I'm also curious about the gut feelings leading to votes...I'd like mustafa and DLMF to substantiate their votes a bit more by at least looking at the posts of the people they voted and giving me some insight to their intuitions.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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@Vel: If DLMF was getting a vibe off that post, then fine- I just wanted him to say that. He didn't, and he used (I think) flawed numbers to try and show that a random vote was more likely to be successful. He also likened his vote to betting a horse because of the jockey's shirt color
I'm just skeptical of a gut vote with no analysis to back it up, even though we're early on, here. I've only played one completed game and have two others in progress (one at another site), but when I had a strong gut vote in one of them, I went back and looked at the posts and pointed out things that were inconclusive, but left me with my impression.
Its not too hard, after all, to "Display all posts by Occult Oldest First"
As for letting Vryk off the hook, I did very much buy Raffles' explanation because it made sense when presented as a real life friendship. Its how I've behaved at times- joke-logic amongst friends- so it sounded plausible.
But after having it pointed out by several people, I need to be just as skeptical of Vryklan and let him answer for himself.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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Please elaborate on why you want to vote him. Are Guardian and John no longer suspiscous to you? If not, what makes Vryklan moreso?Occult wrote:FOS: Vry
I don't remember him posting that he was going to be gone for a few...... I'd like to vote for him but with him this close to getting lynched I'd like to see him post first.
What point?Vryklan wrote:Anyway, forget the whole dice thing, i was just trying to make a point but obviously i didnt make it well...
And I thought the whole shotgun thing went back to the American West stagecoach days when someone had to ride 'shotgun' to shoot bandits and stuff...I'm sure wikipedia has something on it, but that's neither here nor there.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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@Occult: Please see post 152- I had a few questions for you. Your last post seems to be quite a reversal on your stance towards Vryklan.
I agree that Avinyl hasn't been as aggresively targeted.
@Raffles: You seem to be defending Vryklan quite a bit. I, for one, would like him to answer all the questions put to him on his own. At this point, if one of you turns up scum I excpect the other would, too.
And I'm not understanding the reasoning leading up to the vote on Guardian...could you rewrite it all a little more coherently?-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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Avinyl wrote:Gor:kcat
I'm a little surprised you're going after lurkers, Avi...we both know what that would've done to Newb 310 (for my side):evil:
I have been very skeptical of who and why people vote. The two C9s here and the off-site mini I'm in have created a healthy skepticism in my budding play-style.
Not at all- don't want people going back and changing stuff, now do you?Ichigo wrote:Hmmm no edit button that's very incovenient
That's what EBWOP is- Edit By Way Of Post (if you ahdn't looked it up, yet).
I've skimmed a bit to try and get a feel for whom I think is scum, but I'm going to a baseball game later and don't really have too much time to blow at the moment
At the top of my list are the players with the fewest posts since they give us the least to go on, but I understand that some people just post less. As long as they come through when the chips are down, that's fine.
I'll post more tonight.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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DLMF hasn't posted in a few days- not since the gut vote 'busting'.
John's posts are a little intriguing...voting Guardian to "quiet him down", then a vote on DLMF to 'get his attenion', then I see an indirect defense of Vryklan:
And most recently a calling out of lurkers with a vote on Avi and then a confirm vote on Avi.I'm not seeing a good reason for Vryklan's 4 votes, would someone elaborate?
Then he posted during the 45 minutes I've been reading the thread
I'm not sure what to make of it all...the votes feel fluid and slippery- like he wants them to stick but he doesn't want to make the case himself...
mustafa also voted Vryklan. He recently unvoted citing he's not sure why he was so unhappy with Vryklan and had thought he was acting the scummiest.
Occult suspects Avi Vryklan and Guardian together.
Peter Venkman hasn't committed too much since sharing his thoughts on roles and an early suspicion of Raffles and Guardian.
Raffles seems to be on the town's side...the only post that gives me real pause is his somewhat long defense of Vryklan. Has Vryklan answered all the suspicions put towards him, yet? Let's look!
Not really- he does say he bodged his theory on bodgey dice rolls. But he basically falls back to declaring Raffles the patron of Mafia newbies since Raffles also defended Guardian. His last post is some pretty superficial analysis- who's lurking and who hasn't said much...
Vel: Stays on Vrykan until he gets back in the game and now on Avinyl for his vote hops on lurkers.
1) At some point in this game, I'm going to shorten your name to something easier for me to type but not the way you'd choose to abbreviate it. Sorry.
2) I'm tired and way past my bedtime (:P) but I wanted to get a foundation to amend out there tomorrow in my spare time at work. Some people got more attention than others- don't get jealous! Just post more
3) I think I only looked at 8 other posters. So...sleepy...I'll catch up on anyone I missed tomorrow.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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FoS: Vryklan and Raffles
unVote: Avinyl
I've let my vote sit out there awhile, but I think its time to reel in my random vote.
I'm skeptical of the Vryklan/Raffles defense team. Raffles went to bat for Vryklan with nothing to go on and Vryklan has fallen back on that defense pointing out that Raffles also defended Guardian early on.
Since Vryklan is still voting Guardian, I'd like to hear more from him on why.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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To me, that just reads like an out for scum. "Oh- I thought you'd pick up on that!"Peter Venkman wrote:I assume town players are smart enough to catch scum tells, therefor I try not to announce them when I spot them.
If there were a hard and fast book of tells, then I'd agree. But you yourself said:
@Avi: Please explain why you now find John the most suspect.Also, the wikipedia entry should have some sort of "do not use this as the bible" caveat. If the wikipedia entry says "scum does x and doesn't do y" I assure you that scum will do y and not do x.
@Guardian: Can you summarize all your possible scumpairs? Perhaps with a quick statment about why you think they are scum together?-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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So what will you base an argument on when you decide who you want to vote for convinced they are scum? "Player X is scum and you should all be able to see why"?I assume the rest of the town is smart enough to pick up on these tells. If scum think they are getting away with them they will continue to do so. A good townie is a patient townie.
I was in a similar debate in another game where a palyer refused to state who they thought the scum were while we were no-lynching ourselves into lylo. If we aren't voting the person you think is scum, then why sit on that info/analysis?
Perhaps we are talking about two different things...I'm thinking of an accumulation of info presented to make a case agaisnt a person. Are you referring to jumping on every little tick and tell and posting it right away?
I want a recap of all his pairs because he has issued several theories and I want to see him stack them up for review.@Gorckat: Why do you turn to Guardian for scum pairs? We have confirmed nothing this game, and saying things like "If player X is scum, it follows that Y and Z are also scum" is pretty much meaningless until we determine if X is actually scum. Maybe keep your potential scum pairings in your MafiaScum notepad until we have more information to work with...-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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It looks like one of the posts that Avi made is gone- it was an updated suspicion list wth 3 or 4 names on it.
The big thing I was challenging him on was his vote of John after saying:
If he doesn't know what to think of John, what makes John a better vote than Vryklan or Raffles, two other people about whom he doesn't know what to think?Select lines from Avi's list wrote:John: Many posts, but no post is longer than a few sentences. I don't know what to think about him.
Raffles: I can't make up my mind on him, either he's town or he is scum that seems protown.
Vryklan: I no longer know what to think.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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John wrote:Guradian seems very town.
Peter seems like very good scum to me, he is appearing very pro town and asking just the right questions. he's almost being too perfect of a townie, and it rasies my suspicions, but its mostly a gut feeling.
Raffels, i know it seems im lurking. but there are so little scumtells to me, i can't comment with any kind of content. the downtime kicked the shit outta my attention span as well, if it wasn't bad enough.
gorkrat, thanks for defending me indirectly, i dont know what to make of it. you could have ment nothing by it, or you may be trying to gain me as an allie very subtly (<is that a word?). maybe im reading too much into it.FoS John- Since Guardian's tag reset to Townsperson, I'd say its conclusive my voting you for that reason was over the top. But Occult is right- gut feelings and too-townie were gone over earlier. I am always skeptical of a "its just gut" statement, as I have stated. Something was doen to give you that feeling.
As for defending you: yes, you've read too much into it I'm looking at Avi's reasons right now because I think they aren't that strong. Same with yours, which we might get to in more depth shortly. If you happen to be town, then great.
And in Preview, I see Avynil's back-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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Let's look at a couple reasons a townie would get lynched:
1) Lurking: Not the greatest reason to lynch a person, imho, but it can happen.
2) Acting scummy: If you have opened yourself to great suspicion, you're gonna draw investigations and discussion away from scum.
These are the most likely reasons I can think of off the top of my head at the moment.
If you are wasting investigations and distracting the town from true scum, then you're not being helpful. Lynching a person like that early might just save the game before it gets to lylo and the best choice is the scummy looking fella that survived each night, at which point the game is lost for the town.
A townie getting lynched is sorta like getting hit by a pitch in baseball- you don't get to swing the bat right now, it hurt like hell, but you helped the team by getting on base- in a game of mafia you narrowed down the field of likely scum.
Therefore: if a townie gets themselves lynched, they most likely brought it on themselves and weren't helping much (or the least of all the rest) anyways.
Play to find scum, not stay alive. I agree with Peter wholeheartedly on that.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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I just reveiwed Thesp's play in Newb 310 which we were in together and he also played close to the vest in that one. I think it is safe to say his not sharing too much (he does need to throw us a bone) does not mean he is scum.
I'm not clearing him, just pointing out his behavior is consisitent with a previous game I was in.
Avi also had similar problems to this in that same game and turned up pro-town. He was, however, more substantive in some of his posts.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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This was also a large debate (to me, at least) in my only game off site. There was a player that grated my nerves by not sharing his insights. He was the doc, but his style was simply not an open one, not trying to avoid the scum, imho.
I'm not sure if its metagamey since it can make being scum easier, or a personality thing.
In principle, I do agree that suspicions should be laid out for the most part- if a person has a great insight and gets offed, then town isn't helped. But I don't think anyone's mind or style will be changed mid-game in a case where the player has shown this style before.
I'm at least going to give Thesp a fair shake on his thoughts and actually look for what he sees, not just demand it.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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Would you like a ladder to help with that one?John- no really, John! wrote:due to the fact that you wrongly said a quote was by me, which seems to me, your trying to dicredit me, feuadian slip or not.
I get the SK thing- that'd tweak me a little too, I suppose. But he didn't touch up something you said or select a few lines of a longer post- he just tagged it wrong.
Its obvious you didn't say what he quoted- the quote was talkingaboutyou.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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I am ze greatest town evar!Peter Venkman wrote:...at this pointa good town player is suspicious of everyone.
-Peter
I'm feeling a little 'Ick' on:
Guardian- his rushing, while understandable, is just putting me off
John- the leaps he's made to vote Thesp and his reaction in general
Peter- strikes me as using a lot of words but not saying anything...that might be harsh and maybe even unfair, but a lot of theory has been debated and gone over between him and others
Thesp- I'm still at the point where I am learning the various playstyles, and his aggression is both intriguing and intimidating (in a suspicious sense)
Those are my strongest inclinations. Thesp is most likely to fall off the big ick list as I get further used to him. I also agree with Guardian's response to zombie's last post, as well.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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vote: paradoxombie
His reasons for voting Guardian were piggy-backed on other's reasons. He said they all blended together.
When pushed, the only one he put forth specifically was that being vocal is a scum tell (which conveniently clears himself since he has not been notably vocal), but says that reason is arguable.
He says his reasoning is pretty airtight (but the one point he elaborates on is arguable...) but his mind could be changed...
He also set up the "Whoops- he wasn't scum" Day 2 by saying he's "...not very certain you're scum..."
Too wishy-washy and fence-sitty of a vote for me.
His vote did move to Avinyl briefly, but I think that was when several people were starting to look towards Avi when he wasn't posting.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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Hmmm...I'm sold on VRK right up until you speculate on who votes you next Peter...
The sensational nature seems a little much.
However...my radically unfounded scum team guesses (assuming 3 per team): CTD/Thesp/Peter or VRK/pick/mustafa.
Thesp and CTD's entry has been good for Peter...but the case against VRK seems reasonable, as well as CTD's notes on mustafa. The two in conjuinction give me some confidence in:
vote:Vel-Rahn Koon
xombie and John are still on my radar as not town friendly, however. I suppose they could be SK's, as Thesp put out for John, or 4th men on the teams I proposed. Or just lurkers.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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Peter wrote:1.You took your vote of VRK why?
So...if you thought the case wasn't all that in the first place and you were gonna be on before the deadline anyways...why'd you ever vote?pick wrote:1a.I knew I would be on again before the deadline to apply my vote again if I had too, what's it matter to you?
As I was catching up my immediate thoughts were that pick was trying to blend in for later, which I see echoed by others.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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WHOA! That's not what I was asking?!?!? It's like you ignored my question!!
You thought the case was flimsy.
You voted.
You unvoted and later justified that by saying you were gonna be back before the deadline and could revote.
If you were going to be back before the deadline, why did you vote for a case you thought was flimsy?-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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Really?539 wrote:I could have just as easy voted Peter, but we were nearing deadling, and that wouldn't have accomplished anything...
500 wrote:That I have no specific posts thing doesn't convince me Peter is scum at all,or even make me want to consider voting him.vote:pickemgenius
Yeah, yeah- half quotes. I just don't feel like you've been straight with us on your reluctant vote on VRK. I think it was to avoid noticeably not voting him so you could avoid suspicion later.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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I've had the same thoughts, and just now I was reviewingDeathSauce wrote:I am not trying to stay off the radar. I am following your discussion with Peter avidly, but I don't think it's getting us anywhere at the moment.
Lately I have been trying to examine the situation if everyone involved in the Scumcount/WIFOM controversy is pro-town, which I am beginning to think is a possibility. The scum can just sit back and let VRK/Peter/CTD/PEG fight over minutiae while they lie unmolested. Is it absolutely necessary that one of these camps is scum?yourposts since, as pointed out by VRK, you flipped a little suddenly.
I'm not sure I buy your 'I wanted to see how long pick would vote VRK given an out' stance.
If the scumaren'tamong Peter/CTD or VRK/pick/mustafa, then they could get two free townie lynches by playing along.
All that said, pick I like because I think his actions and statements voting and unvoting VRK are not sincere.
xombie is still on my radar and I literally just saw this:
xombie #10 wrote:For voting guardian? Same as I posted before.Plus I think it's important to always keep your vote on someone(normally the person you suspect the most[obviously]).xombie #12, 5-15 wrote:well out of respect for PMG, I'll unvote
But I feel like I have to read through the topic again before I decide my course of action for the rest of the dayxombie #13, 5-16 wrote:just a suggestion, perhaps we should all list all of our suspicions
At best we'd get some more scum tells or some faulty reasoning, and at worst we may be able to pick someone to compromise on that we all find pretty suspicious, even if they aren't our #1.
Does that sound fair?
So...in 10 days and two posts you haven't felt it important to keep your vote on someone you suspect? That sure makes the vote on Guardian seem worth even less than the last time I scrutinized it...xombie #14, 5-23 wrote:Wow this is getting pretty damn hard to keep track of
All of these arguments sound completely solid, even the ones that contradict each other!
I'll post as soon as anything in particular strikes me
vote:paradoxombie-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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I at least wanted your reaction before I laid anything out there, DS.
You started off skeptical and voted CTD.I just can't put that much importance on what could very well be just a simple confusion over the number of scum. It's not that big of a deal, and I don't like Peter and CTD's reaction to it. I also am worried by CTD's pressure for a claim. It is not necessarily the right thing to do.
Vote: crashtextdummie
You confirm your feelings on the weakness of the VRK lynch.Wow, CTD, over-react much? You want fresh independent analysis? Here, it is: I don't like your push for this lynch of VRK one bit.
Yes, you discovered the whopping inconsistency that VRK once said there were three scum, and then another time said there might be four. Whoop-de-doo! He must be scum! Rolling Eyes
Sorry, it seems like you and Peter are pushing very hard for this lynch based on the flimsiest of evidence.
You again suspect that CTD is pushing a bad lynch and don't get the VRK case.No problem.
1) I felt that the amount of suspicion leveled at VRK was inconsistent with the seriousness of his mistake. I actually still don't understand why it was such a big deal.
2) Seeing Peter Venkman, who was the voice of reason throughout the first 18 pages, suddenly glom onto this trivial matter as if it was the scumtell of all time really raised my hackles.
3) This sentence:
was odd. We had a deadline fast approaching, there was no danger that someone wasn't going to be lynched. Why was CTD so anxious for everyone to jump on the VRK wagon? To lessen the importance of his vote? Maybe.It's clearly better in this situation to lynch someone, so please get your act together, town.
Now you're saying that you were gauging pick's reaction and that CTD/Peter might be rightI have to admit that a small part of my vote on CTD, with associated comments, was an attempt to see how long pickem's vote would stay on VRK if given an out.
I still am suspicious of CTD and Peter's motivation. I disagree with some of the reasoning behind their votes on VRK. But I have to admit they might be correct.
I am more troubled by pickem. His vote on VRK seemed forced since the tide was so strong toward a VRK deadline lynch and he abandoned it at the first opportunity.
Unvote. Vote pickemgenius
If either pickem or VRK turns out to be town, my eye will turn toward the CTD/Peter contingent
And suddenly you're defending Peter, convinced you chose the right group.Sorry, I appreciate the three of you trying to shift the focus onto Peter, but you honestly couldn't be more transparent. When there are three players acting in concert throughout 23 pages, it makes outing you pretty easy.
I am convinced I've chosen the right group as scum. If we lynch any of the mustafa/VRK/pickem group, I am fine with that.
You've come completely to the dark side and their "most logical option".I am not trying to stay off the radar. I am following your discussion with Peter avidly, but I don't think it's getting us anywhere at the moment.
Lately I have been trying to examine the situation if everyone involved in the Scumcount/WIFOM controversy is pro-town, which I am beginning to think is a possibility. The scum can just sit back and let VRK/Peter/CTD/PEG fight over minutiae while they lie unmolested. Is it absolutely necessary that one of these camps is scum?
It is strange however that VRK, PEG, and mustafa have been so closely aligned throughout the game. And Peter's argument definitely puts him out on the limb. If any of the V/P/M group comes up town he is almost certain to be lynched the next day.
It is a tough decision. All I can do is vote the camp that seems to offer the most logical option, and right now that seems to be Peter and CTD.
I still have not received any response from Thesp, when I asked for some context for his wild pronouncements of guilt/ innocence. Any progress on that front, Thesp?
In summary, I'm skeptical of your conversion.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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I certainly wasn't avoiding the VRK lynch- I had voted him at one point, also convinced. Re-reading my own posts to see where I stood on things, I reminded myself why I felt so strongly about xombie. He still looks likely scum to me. You, I also mentioned you before the deadline.
That said- sure, changing minds is to be expected. You just went from so thoroughly convinced it was wrong to so thoroughly ocnivnced it was right that it gives me pause re-reading it, plus the bit you had about gauging pick's reaction which, iirc, was under deadline (I could be wrong, since the date shofted a few times).
Maybe I jumped the gun voting you so quickly without check-ins from others, but you and xombie are tops on my list now.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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I'm sorry, can you clarify that?Paradoxombie wrote:I FOS'd because it'd be easy for a scum to lead a counterwagon on the leader of the previous one that had lynched a townie. All he has to do is wait till a wagon is on someone who isn't one of his mates, and mention how their suspicious of a persons reasons. Then next day after the mislynch you just start up suspicion on the wagon's leader(s). With a little luck you turn one mislynch into two.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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So you'd rather let the lurkers go another week without prods and need to be replaced then rather than maybe find out now?
I posted lightly in my other game last Thursday or Friday, but damn- sorry I'm trying to close out the program year at work, buying a house and packing to move...scum is I!
</uncharcteristic pissiness>
Anyway-vote:paradoxzombie
I liked him yesterday, I like him today.
He never made his own case against Guardian, contradicted himself on keeping votes on people and when I challenged the strength of his case today, says I'm suspicious.-
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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gorckat Mafia Scum
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