Mini 497 - Game Over

[Shanba]

Hi there peoples. Reading as I type (well not literally, but you get the idea).

[Shanba]

Right, so I got all the way through the game, and I must say, it's an enjoyable read.

Vote: kabenon

,

FoS OpposedForce, Sephiroth

. Also get mildly scummy reads on Aimee and joost.

Start with kabenon. The first post of his I find scummy is post 4 (in view all posts by kabenon mode). It's a weird psuedo-lurky kinda post in which he brings up the possibility of a jester (which seems like a subtle defence of dusterhan) but winds up saying nothing really at all. It's a useless post which looks like contribution but isn't really.

His very next post reads as scummy too - there's the continued defence of dusterhan but there's also the fact that he puts "...yet" at the end of his post. I dislike this muchly. Why would a pro-town player ever need to qualify a read in this way?

Post 8, 9 and 10 both have similar themes: mild attacks that seem to be designed to put as many people under suspicion as possible. This is the last time he comments on someone other than dusterhan being scummy.

This is not the end of it, though. Looking through his posts there are a number of scummy themes.

I just think he is scummy, plain and simple.

Blame me for it if you will, but there it is

Really, though, in all honesty,

There you have it.

It's a lot of empty statements that try to make his points look more reasonable and more content filled than they actually are. It's also a whole lot of appeals to emotion. In general, an appeal to emotion is not scummy, however multiple appeals to emotion give the impression that he is simply trying to survive. This, combined with the lack of scumhunting, the generally unhelpful posts, the weak spraying of suspicion and defending of dusterhan early on makes him solidly the scummiest player in the game.

OpposedForce is a combination of weaker things. Some of Knuck's posts strike me as overly follow-y: in particular his post 64 caught my eye on my readthrough. (going by in game posts this time, as the context of the posts are important.) Then there's the general lurky feel I've had from the role all game - he very rarely seems to get involved with things. OpposedForce is similar, but a worse lurker.

Sephiroth is slightly different. Every time he posts, I get a reasonable vibe from what he is saying - he seems to be contributing actively, and hunting for scum. However, as soon as the pressure dies down off him again, he disappears. Early d1: he is contributing, get's attacked, defends himself then disappears. It's only when he comes under attack again, this time from ckd that he begins to contribute again. This is a type of behaviour I have often seen from scum (and in fact done as scum myself)

Aimee feels off because I don't think I've ever seen her play like this before. Generally, her playstyle consists of "post a huge analysis then disappear for ages". I've never seen her using one-liners as a playstyle. I'm watching her for now.

joost generally gives me pro-town vibes, he seems to be solidly scumhunting and generally contributing well. However, a couple of his early posts strike me the wrong way - particularly his post 4. He says he will keep voting for dusterhan - " At least until someone else is acting more scummy. " I used a near identical qualifier for my vote in my very first newbie game Newbie 297) when I was scum voting for my scumbuddy early day 1. If it weren't for the rest of his play, he would be my top suspect for this.

[Shanba]

[quote="-TinVision-"
I will say that you've brought an interesting perspective to the game. I need to read the last couple pages more thoroughly, but I found it interesting that I was never mentioned in your post, despite the heavy scrutiny that has been on me for a good portion of the game. If you're not in favor of the wagon, I'd like to hear why not.
[/quote]
Mm. I'm not sold on the you wagon currently. I don't have a read on you. I think the arguments against you are somewhat weak, and I believe there are much better wagons currently. I think all 5 of the people I listed are scummier than you.

[Shanba]

OK, reading through Sephiroth's posts it's not as bad a pattern as it felt when reading through the thread, however, here are dates -
beginning of d1, Aug 30-Sep 3: Sephiroth makes a few posts. After that, he is attacked, and from Sep 3- Sep 6 Sephiroth makes several posts defending himself. After the heat dies down, he makes one or two posts a week (though some with good content) until Sep 24-Sep 27th where he talks about replacing the mod etc. Sep 28 he disappears until Oct 08 where he is on the defensive again (and continues to be). There's a marked dip in posting when he's not under attack, although I admit he was still posting useful content.

Sephiroth, interestingly although your second point would be right if I had represented the facts correctly, reading throuhg your posts I hadn't. You didn't start mass-posting until you were under pressure.

I agree, correlation does not imply causation. It's a patten of behaviour that's worth noting, however, because it's a pattern that scum are more likely to show than town (they have a motive for it, whereas town do not). It's quite possible you were overwhelmed by work, but it's also quite possible that you are scum primarily concerned with not being lynched. Either it's a nulltell or a scumtell, and we can't know which, but it's still suspicious to someone who doesn't know (i.e. anyone not you) what the truth is.

[Shanba]

CKD, there are a couple of fundamental things you are missing. The first is the distinction between anti-town and scummy, and the second is a distinction between a scummy post and a scummy player.

Anti-town is any action that is not beneficial to the town. Scummy is something that indicates someone is scum. An example of an anti-town is flaking - it makes it more difficult for town to work coherently if the lineup is constantly changing. However, there is little to no correlation between flaking and scum (except in some metagame circumstances, but these are limited). It is anti-town, but not scummy, because though it hurts town scum are not more likely to do it that town.

The second distinction is between a scummy player and a scummy post. The crucial thing here is that any scummy action only indicates an increased likelihood that a player is scum. One single scummy post is therefore not indicative of scum, as no scumtell is 100% accurate.

Then there's the "he was trying to lynch someone he thought was a townie" thing. Sephiroth's justification here is fine. Unless he is scum, he cannot know whether dusterhan is a townie or not. He can believe so, but it is not definitive. If we then look at Sephiroth's logic in this light, it makes perfect sense. As far as I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) Sephiroth believed that duster was at best a worthless (or even dangerous in endgame) townie or at best a scum. Despite the fact that he felt the first scenario was more likely, it was a lynch that wouldn't hurt town much if duster turned out to be town. Better to waste mislynches on useless townies than actie contributing townies.

Despite CKD's flawed logic, however, I'm not sold on him being scum. Going back to the anti-town/scummy distinction we set up, I believe craplogic to be anti-town, rather than scummy. I do not believe that any scum would deliberately argue something they knew was wrong - in which case, it becomes more a function of CKD's style rather than his alignment. OTOH, the appeals to emotion do oncern me, and I haven't yet made up my mind as to whether misrepresentations are scummy (I'm leaning towards yes, because though they seem to fall under the same logic as craplogic, actually they're often more indicative of not paying attnetion, a definite trend I've seen in scum.) Still, I would put him around third on my list.

[Shanba]

I do not believe that any scum would deliberately argue something they knew was wrong

Isn't everything that a scum is arguing for inherently something they know is wrong? I mean, they have to argue that they are town, and they know that to be wrong, yet they still argue it anyway. I don't think I understand that line, shanba.

It perhaps wasn't entirely clear. I don't believe scum would argue an argument they

know

is flawed. Obviously, they have to be pushing lynches they know are mislynches, but I believe that scum do this using arguments they know to be correct. Certainly on theory issues, a scum would argue the position they felt most comfortable arguing - Yos2 is not going to suddenly advocate letting lurkers slide y because his partner is a lurker.

Bleh. I think I failed to get my point across again.

Let me try from another angle. Scum are not trying to look like scum. They are trying to look like town. In order to do this, it helps to argue what they believe to be true. I don't believe a scum would argue something he knew was craplogic in order to get his or her quicklynches - he would argue something he believed to be indicative of scum.

[Shanba]

I agree with Kabenon on this, Shanba, that line stuck out to me too.

Despite CKD's flawed logic, however, I'm not sold on him being scum. Going back to the anti-town/scummy distinction we set up, I believe craplogic to be anti-town, rather than scummy.

I do not believe that any scum would deliberately argue something they knew was wrong

- in which case, it becomes more a function of CKD's style rather than his alignment. OTOH, the appeals to emotion do oncern me, and I haven't yet made up my mind as to whether misrepresentations are scummy (I'm leaning towards yes, because though they seem to fall under the same logic as craplogic, actually they're often more indicative of not paying attnetion, a definite trend I've seen in scum.) Still, I would put him around third on my list.

I agree with Kabenon on this, Shanba, that line stuck out to me too.

This is actually something I believe quite strongly in - I don't think craplogic is a scumtell (in fact, I believe many things which are commonly called scumtells are more ususally simply anti-town.) I explained my reasoning in my last post, but it basically boils down to scum not wanting to seem scummy (and thus not deliberately posting craplogic)

Just for the record, your top three is Kabenon, OpposedForce, CKD now? Btw did you think Dusterhan's behaviour was scummy or just anti-town?

No, I would put it more Kab - CKD - OF (Then Seph), because my case on OF is not that strong, being at least partially gut.

CKD - I could go either way. Some of your actions are anti-town (i.e. nulltells) but other actions have been scummy.

As for you thinking you look pro-town because you are attacking someone you believe is scum, that's not actually very helpful, as scum also attack people and currently I don't see any evidence to suggest the former.

I think it was anti-town. I've seen many townies being similarly unhelpful.

[Shanba]

EBWOP - that last sentence was replying to joost, not ckd

[Shanba]

Well, CKD, in post 385, you appealed to our emotions again... "hang me for it if you got too..." That kind of talk is something I have been attacked for in this game as well... by Shanba I think... why are you not attacking it with CKD?

Couple things - If you note, though, I have attacked CKD - he is second on my list but for other reasons than appeals to emotion, because I do not believe that appeals to emotion alone are particularly strong scumtells.

Secondly, my attack on you is not solely based on appeals to emotion -

It's also a whole lot of appeals to emotion. In general, an appeal to emotion is not scummy, however multiple appeals to emotion give the impression that he is simply trying to survive. This, combined with the lack of scumhunting, the generally unhelpful posts, the weak spraying of suspicion and defending of dusterhan early on makes him solidly the scummiest player in the game.

You'll note that there are several points raised there - consistent appeals to emotion is just one point.

Aimee - nice of you to self-prod. Have you anything to add?

[Shanba]

right, but would scum act so blatantly disinterested?

Yes. 100% they would.

[Shanba]

I am disappointed in the lack of kabenon votes.

[Shanba]

Hey, sorry about my absence. I really have no excuse, I just forgot to check on this one. Um... my vote on CKD still stands, he hasn't defended himself well enough IMO.

Guys, why is this guy not dead? He is clearly a superior lynch to CKD.

[Shanba]

If you are so obviously town, it may amuse you to rebut the case I posted against you, well, ages ago.

[Shanba]

You mean that post 342, in which basically all you said was that my statements were empty and that I appeal to emotion a lot? That case? Not much to refute my friend. You say I am suspicious because I use words like "...yet" or "in all honesty" because they make my arguments empty statements that I am trying to make seem more contentful. Please. Just because I add those on at the end does not mean that it takes away from the content of the post. You only provided the short blurb at the end, not the meat and potatoes of the posts. Shame on the edit job. I merely add those on to say that that is how my opinion stands, and that is how it will stand until I am proven otherwise.

There was very little content in your posts, and adding weak disclaimers to the end of each in order to leave yourself wriggle room is a very scummy thing to do. The fact that they add more empty space to your posts which were not overburdened by original thought anyway is just another reason to suspect you/

And you are right, Shanba. I wanted to throw as much suspicion around as possible... and then go into actively advocating ONE person's lynch, pretty soon after these spraying of suspicions you speak of. If I wanted to spray suspicion, why would I have got one-tracked on duster? Confusing...

I can't believe you just said this. Scum like to throw as much suspicion around as possible - the more targets there are, the better the chances of a mislynch. The better the chances of a mislynch, the happier the scum are. Of course, you have to pick a wagon eventually - a wagon, that, notably was on a player many people had advocated suspicion on. Similarly on CKD (one reason I am wary of voting him.) I'm not saying that scum are only going to spray suspicion around - sooner or later they need to get a lynch too.

[Shanba]

I managed to completely mix up my points there. The wriggle room one was in refernce to the early play I cited in my analysis posts where you seem to be taking both sides on things. The empty statements thing is different - you're trying to validate your points by making yourself seem more reasonable. Empty words that just fill up space in a post ping my scumdar hard - they're unhelpful, make you look like you're posting content when you're not and also are an attempt to make yourself look reasonable (a scumtell I used in Wolves Mafia in New York to nail Jingolawscum). Not to mention that many of them are appeals to emotion. It's a disturbing theme running through your posts.

As for scumhunting, no, you haven't. I've yet to see any evidence of an actual case or even a simple point that you specifically have brought to the table. And spraying attacks everywhere is

not

a protown thing to do. You are not providing reasons why you think people are suspicious, you're jumping on other people's reasons for finding people suspicious. Townies do have multiple targets, correct - but that does not excuse your weak attacking of players.

[Shanba]

You are not providing reasons why you think people are suspicious, you're jumping on other people's reasons for finding people suspicious.

I can't do that? Can't someone be scummy for the reasoning behind their attacks?

You misunderstand me. I say you're basing your votes on other people's reasoning - that is, player A says Player B is scummy and you say I agree! Vote Player B

Not to mention that many of them are appeals to emotion. It's a disturbing theme running through your posts.

So why don't you attack CKD more heavily then? Most of his recent posts have been appeals to emotion?

He's second on my suspect list. He doesn't need more pressure. You clearly do, as somehow everyone is ignoring you. Not to mention, if you read my posts I have said I do not think that appeals to emotion are good scumtells

alone

. In combination with a number of other scummy themes, however, they raise my eyebrows.

And spraying attacks everywhere is not a protown thing to do.

And yet you have failed to present me with an example of said spraying...

I did in my original post, I believe. If you're not convinced I acn dig up more examples.

Other people seem to think I have been scumhunting and posting content. So, who is wrong, Shanba? You, or all the others?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority. Because the majority believes something is the case does not make it true.

Look at this little nugget I dug up:

Couple things - If you note, though, I have attacked CKD - he is second on my list but for other reasons than appeals to emotion, because

I do not believe that appeals to emotion

alone

are

particularly strong

scumtells

.

But wait... isn't that one of your main arguments against me? Have a change of thought there, Shanba?

(Fixed the quote...)

Underlining mine. And you did read my post. So why were you probing me about CKD earlier then?

[Shanba]

Agreed, Atticus. I'm actually getting more and more worried about Aimee as the day goes on. I do know that she has access issues, but her jump on kabenon after attacking you all day worried me. Combinced with the fact that her play does not fit the Aimee meta I have, I'm definitely keeping an eye on her.

Still think kab is the play though.

[Shanba]

Eh. If I can't get a kabenon lynch I would settle for a ckd lynch. Kabenon is still a lynch possibility though and I'm not unvoting him yet.

[Shanba]

CKD, I have a question for you - do you still believe Seph/Elias is scum?

[Shanba]

The reason I ask you is because you don't seem very consistent in the matter in your last few posts.

by the way, I have a feeling that statement you will be using as defense come tomorrow, town I say dont let him

This indicates you think he's scum,

the fact that you have stopped scum hunting is telling...

as does this. This

Elias, you are a horrid scum hunter who has a knack of focusing on the obvious while ignoring the truly scummy. Your lack of foresight will get you hung tomorrow.

however, inicateed to me you thought he was town. Hence why I asked. And I'm pleased to note you don't sound too sure. If you had said yes, 100%, I would have been worried. Meh. Wasn't as telling as I'd hoped.

[Shanba]

I can see Shanba's Post 342 and 380 as evidence of a connection to Sephiroth. His 'case' on Seph was half-hearted. He superficially expresses suspicion of Seph without ever decisively stating that anything is scummy. I also didn't think his case on kab was better than the one that already existed. Interestingly, both TinVision and Atticus commented that Shanba's 343 was insightful, Atticus even calling it agreeable.

Sephiroth is slightly different. Every time he posts, I get a reasonable vibe from what he is saying - he seems to be contributing actively, and hunting for scum. However, as soon as the pressure dies down off him again, he disappears. Early d1: he is contributing, get's attacked, defends himself then disappears. It's only when he comes under attack again, this time from ckd that he begins to contribute again. This is a type of behaviour I have often seen from scum (and in fact done as scum myself)

Then there's the "he was trying to lynch someone he thought was a townie" thing. Sephiroth's justification here is fine. Unless he is scum, he cannot know whether dusterhan is a townie or not. He can believe so, but it is not definitive. If we then look at Sephiroth's logic in this light, it makes perfect sense. As far as I understand (correct me if I'm wrong) Sephiroth believed that duster was at best a worthless (or even dangerous in endgame) townie or at best a scum. Despite the fact that he felt the first scenario was more likely, it was a lynch that wouldn't hurt town much if duster turned out to be town. Better to waste mislynches on useless townies than actie contributing townies.

Ok, so here are the relevant parts of the two bits you say are connection to Sephiroth. Firstly, I don't see how you think the case I push on him is half-hearted. I say quite firmly that it's something I find scummy and it's only the fact that his posts feel pro-town that have him lowish on my suspicion list. Especially when you compare it to the other cases I made in that post against OF and Joost, one of which is based on a single early post and the other a sort of vague gut feeling.

The second post, I am defending Sephiroth. However, this is more because CKD's craplogic attack annoys me than because of any thoughts I have about Sephiroth's alignment. You'll see if you look at my other games that I frequently deconstruct arguments I feel are based on craplogic, as CKD's was, because I don't think craplogic is a good way to find scum.

Then you state that you don't think my case on Kabenon was better than the one that already existed. If this is true, back it up. Show where the points I had made had been made earlier.

Finally, you seem to be trying to link me to Atticus and Tinvision as well - simply because they liked my post (if you're not, I don't see why you brought it up - do you have an alternative explanation?). Considering these are two players who have been under pressure a lot this game, it worries me that you are trying to link me to them.

[Shanba]

Shanba, I think your argument against Seph in 348 wasn't based on anything really scummy. You refer to his behaviour as a scum-tell, but I don't see it like that. I might even call it a reach, and I call it half-hearted because, even before reading Seph's response, I thought it would have been easy to defend against. 380 still reads very much like a defence of Seph than a rebuttal of CKDs logic. Only one sentence in the paragraph even refers to logic at all.

So you think it's half-hearted because... you don't agree with my scumtell? I can go and cite examples if you wish. It's definitely something I find scummy. And if someone is scum they have to invent a reason for not posting, something which is risky - forcing scum to commit to a lie is excellent, as if the lie is uncovered we can know they're scum. So no, it's not easy to defend against.

As for the second thing, you missed the point. I was defending Sephiroth, but only as a result of trying to explain to ckd just why and how he was wrong, not as a result of who he was voting for. I guarantee you that if I saw craplogic used against anyone I would attack it, and thereby defend the player under attack.

I didn't say that the points you raised about kabenon had already been bought up. By saying I didn't think the case was any better than the one that was already stated, I was saying that I didn't think it was particularly good evidence of him being scum.

:\

So again, it's a case of you don't think my scumtells are scumtells. I can't argue with that. It would help if you said just exactly what you thought was weak in my case against kab.

About Tin and Atticus, no, I'm not

trying

to link them to you, given that the link already exists by virtue of posts. Two of the players I find most suspicious, who are very inactive, both manage a post to express agreement with you. Of course I'm going to bring this up.

Ridiculous. By the very act of bringing it up, you insinuate we are linked based simply on one post where they agree with me. Do you not see why this worries me? If you're linking me to Atticus and Tin based on that, why not link me to joost, who I attacked briefly then backed off and has said he thinks I'm town, Aimee, who I've expressed suspicion of but not yet acted on and who voted on the Kab wagon with me, (though I am sorely tempted to at this point. Aimee, where are you? Come back?), OF, who I attacked once and haven't returned to, CKD, who I am indirectly defending by pushing an alternative lynch wagon... do you see where I'm getting to here? If you're taking my attacking people using scumtells you disagree with as a link, or one post defending them, or one post where they agree with me, then your definition of a link is weak enough to link me to just about every player in the game.

[Shanba]

So you think it's half-hearted because... you don't agree with my scumtell? I can go and cite examples if you wish.

Definitely, some examples would be good. But to clarify, I just don't find arguments that simply refer to actions as 'scumtells' to be very strong and think most 'tells' aren't anyway. If you'd actually stated what was scummy about what Sephiroth did, then it would have been a more convincing post.

Eh, I'm largely in agreement with you here, and perhaps it was my terminology that is misleading - I call any scummy action a scumtell, and anything I deem a scumtell as scummy. You can look at my wiki for my philosophy of scumhunting.

As for why that's a scumtell/scummy, it goes back to scum wanting to fly under the radar, whether consciously or subconsciously. It also relates to it being difficult for scum to give genuine opinions on the scumminess of a player given they already know who the scum is. As such, the scum puts off posting (not necessarily deliberately) until something crucial comes up: i.e. something they have to defend against. At which point they suddenly realise they need to look like they're scumhunting some more and post quickly. In this sense it's closely linked to active lurking as an indicator of scumminess.

As for examples... eh. viewtopic.php?t=4004 Pooky's play here is quite a good example, but quite long. Some elements of it later in day 1 of my play in viewtopic.php?t=6170&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0 There's also some in my play here: viewtopic.php?t=5886. Eh, they're not as clear as I like, but you get the idea.

And if someone is scum they have to invent a reason for not posting, something which is risky - forcing scum to commit to a lie is excellent, as if the lie is uncovered we can know they're scum. So no, it's not easy to defend against.

Point about about getting scum to lie is taken. But the point

I'm

making is that Seph didn't even have to lie to answer your post.

Really? Explain how. If he's scum, and he's showing this pattern because he is scum and not for personal reasons, he would have to make up an excuse for not posting.

As for the second thing, you missed the point. I was defending Sephiroth, but only as a result of trying to explain to ckd just why and how he was wrong, not as a result of who he was voting for. I guarantee you that if I saw craplogic used against anyone I would attack it, and thereby defend the player under attack.

Effectively, an attack against someone's argument will become a defence, direct or indirect, of someone else, yes. But you didn't seem to put much effort into marking this difference. I still think that post reads much more like a defence of Seph than an attack on crap-logic, which is what I said in my last post.

Yes, I know, but you based that on the fact that I only used the word logic once, which is a weak assertion. What I said was simply what had been said before - my hope was that by repeating it, CKD would finally get the message.

So again, it's a case of you don't think my scumtells are scumtells. I can't argue with that. It would help if you said just exactly what you thought was weak in my case against kab.

Well, I don't know if I'd call it weak. I think what you said was noteworthy. I wasn't sure about the appeals to emotion points though. Overall, it didn't seem as damning a case as you presented it to be. Not enough to call him 'solidly the scummiest player', anyway.

:\

So who do you think was scummier then? Given my analyses and positions on other players, who would you expect me to be voting? It seems to me like you simply disagree with my case on Kabenon and for some reason are calling this a link.

Ridiculous. By the very act of bringing it up, you insinuate we are linked based simply on one post where they agree with me. Do you not see why this worries me?

Shanba, you're ignoring that both Tin and Atticus have mostly lurked through this day, meaning each of their posts are more meaningful than single posts of other players you mentioned. This is why I found it notable. Quoting myself:

Two of the players I find most suspicious, who are very inactive, both manage a post to express agreement with you.

Was this not clear enough?

Yes, it was perfectly clear, but it doesn't address

my

point, which is that the links you are drawing are weak. If similar links could be drawn between me and three quarters of the game, then there's no reason for these to be any more than background noise. Eh. That wasn't clear. Let me try again. I can't be scum with all the players in the game, correct? As such, what particular reason is there to believe that these links are significant? The fact that the players are scummy means little to nothing. If these links are alid, then the ones between me and other players of similar strength should be ntoed as valid too - which means whoever the scum is, you could link me to them by this logic. Do you see what worries me?

[Shanba]

Aimee, if I weren't pretty sure kabenon was scum, I would be voting for you.

Vote: kabenon

[Shanba]

Let me try from another angle. Scum are not trying to look like scum. They are trying to look like town. In order to do this, it helps to argue what they believe to be true. I don't believe a scum would argue something he knew was craplogic in order to get his or her quicklynches - he would argue something he believed to be indicative of scum.

So, after all of this,

Confirm Vote: -TinVision-

I'm not sure what this has to do with your case on Tinvision: it's entirely possible that I missed something, but I'm not sure what. In fact, I'm not at all convinced by your case on Tin. It stinks of appeal to authority. Townies are capable of making crap cases too: it's necessary to examine the content of the case and see whether it works or not. I don't see any evidence that you did this.

OTOH:

Erm. You think that most likely, THREE out of those four people (including me) are scum? I find this incredibly scummy. You genuinely believe that you've managed to find three scum out of four. Call me skeptical, but I don't know anyone who can replace in and point out three scum. I'm especially skeptical when their evidence is ONE deadline vote count.

Completely disagree with this. Have you ever played with Glork?

[Shanba]

Erm. You think that most likely, THREE out of those four people (including me) are scum? I find this incredibly scummy. You genuinely believe that you've managed to find three scum out of four. Call me skeptical, but I don't know anyone who can replace in and point out three scum. I'm especially skeptical when their evidence is ONE deadline vote count.

Completely disagree with this. Have you ever played with Glork?

Nope. Like I said: No one I know.

The reason I bring up the example of Glork is not that I think he could pick out the scum in that way (though I guess it's possible) but because of a conscious playstyle decision of his to appear mroe sure than he is. Obviously, noone can ever be certain that another player is scum, barring role info, but that doesn't stop you from believing that a player

is

scum. Overstating your opinions gets better reactions etc.

Bleh. That was incoherent. Sorry.

[Shanba]

Eh. I've spoken to Aimee (relatively recently) on AIM and I know she's gone to uni and has had little time for mafie recently. TBH, I think it's probably just better to replace her. Beyond her lurking, there's not really a strong case on her, and her lurking is not unusual for her current activity levels onsite.

[Shanba]

@ Kabenon: my reasoning for not suspecting me is basically because in my recent experience with a game, the one who lurked most of the game and made infrequent posts ended up being town. Then, the mafia was able to sit back and enjoy the ride as the town decimated each other.

This answer is not particularly useful. But then, the question was idiotic.

Flameaxe is winning the argument. I don't think his case against Mizzy is strong though. Dean Harper's replacing in is not impressing me, but Kabenon's insistence that he's scum makes me think they're probably not partners, and kab is leagues scummier than Dean.

Dean/Aimee have not posted enough content to appear one way or the other, so I suggest you re-evaluate your position on the matter. Another mislynch because you tunnel-visioned yet again on an inappropriate target does nothing, nada, zilch to help the town.

Kabenon is scum, and thus not interested in helping the town. This should be clear by now.

Also, hi everyone.

[Shanba]

Kabenon, do you deny that your posts gave the impression you were attacking DH?

[Shanba]

Well, welcome to the game, my vote was on your predecessor, tell me why it should not be, seeing as how she didn't or wouldn't or couldn't!

Then there are the posts where you attacked Aimee. They are still the same role, so any comments you made against Aimee apply to DH.

[Shanba]

^_O Your attacks on Aimee and your vote on her indicate (well, they should, anyway) that she is the scummiest to you. You haven't let up on DH since he replaced in, asking him loaded questions and are indeed still voting him. And as for me looking for things to throw at you, no, that's not treu. The point of the exercise was to demonstrate I don't think you and DH are linked.

[Shanba]

I asked him to tell me why I shouldn't vote for him! That was all I basically said to the guy! How is that "not letting up?"

Explain to me how that question does not imply a suspicion of the player it is directed to.

[Shanba]

Uh, I'm male. But nvm <.<

[Shanba]

Don't worry, you're not the first...

[Shanba]

Noone said you should, waht's being contested is your attempt to have it both ways.

Are you, or are you not, suspcious of DH?

[Shanba]

It also doesn't really explain why you contested my assertion that you found the role suspicious.

[Shanba]

Meta data can be right sometimes; however, it's often not correct in the slightest. I feel that players should stick to the game at hand and in a way, gathering meta data (after doing this once in another game and then severely thinking things over) feels like a lesser form of cheating.

Basically, what I am saying is that if you can't finger someone without using meta data, then your fingering is probably not a solid one. Good players should be able to use only the current game data to formulate their opinions.

I completely disagree with this.

Take ABR. ABR is known for fakeclaiming as town. Which means that when he's exposed as fakeclaiming, it doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. Or take Fritzler or BabyJesus. Both have unique playstyles that might come off as scummy at first glance. In both cases, metagaming helps you get a more accurate picture.

But metagaming's effectiveness doesn't stop there. Some players have scumtells that are unique to themselves, maybe they lurk more as scum, or they defend other players more as scum. If you can discern that something is a scumtell for a particular player, then you're much better off.

In fact, I would go further, and say that metagaming is essential. There is no such thing as a universal scumtell, one that applies to all people.Not even claiming scum. For some people, that's just a boredom tell. As such, it's important to see what is a scumtell for a particular player. If you don't have past data, then you're forced to use scumtells that are generally effective, that's a given, and in fact, I would be shocked if any player went to the lengths of looking up the other players in his games, as it takes a lot of effort to identify scumtells for particular people. But that doesn't mean metagaming is ineffective. It just means that metagame data must be interpreted corrrectly.

Kabenon, please present threads that support your statement that it was different to when she was town, bearing in mind that there are good reasons she was posting less.

[Shanba]

I completely disagree with this.

Take ABR. ABR is known for fakeclaiming as town. Which means that when he's exposed as fakeclaiming, it doesn't necessarily mean he's scum. Or take Fritzler or BabyJesus. Both have unique playstyles that might come off as scummy at first glance. In both cases, metagaming helps you get a more accurate picture.

But metagaming's effectiveness doesn't stop there. Some players have scumtells that are unique to themselves, maybe they lurk more as scum, or they defend other players more as scum. If you can discern that something is a scumtell for a particular player, then you're much better off.

In fact, I would go further, and say that metagaming is essential. There is no such thing as a universal scumtell, one that applies to all people.Not even claiming scum. For some people, that's just a boredom tell. As such, it's important to see what is a scumtell for a particular player. If you don't have past data, then you're forced to use scumtells that are generally effective, that's a given, and in fact, I would be shocked if any player went to the lengths of looking up the other players in his games, as it takes a lot of effort to identify scumtells for particular people. But that doesn't mean metagaming is ineffective. It just means that metagame data must be interpreted corrrectly.

Kabenon, please present threads that support your statement that it was different to when she was town, bearing in mind that there are good reasons she was posting less.

We'll have to agree to disagree, then. If players cannot find scum within just the scope of the game they are in, then to me, they are not very good players. You should not need meta data in order to play the game.

But you're always using information that is beyond the scope of the game. You might think something is a scumtell because you've seen lots of people do it before as scum - information outside the scope of the game. Or you might think there probably aren't three cops because you've never seen a setup like that and it wouldn't be balanced and guess what - that's also outside the scope of the game. Anyone who says they don't metagame is either lying or deceiving themself.

[Shanba]

But the thing is, I don't play like that. I watch from the beginning of the game for small tells contained within that game and let them add up. I haven't ever used the "well lots of scum do this so I think they're scum" argument, because it's got a high chance of being wrong. I'm not always playing the same people, and some are much much more advanced than that and won't ever give off those tells. It's just a personal play technique, and it's worked well so far.

Do you disagree, then, that the basis of a scumtell is something that scum do more than town?

I watch from the beginning of the game for small tells contained within that game and let them add up

How do you know that they are tells if not through the use of meta-data? I mean, that's fine, but I think you're missing the point.

My point is that people change and don't always play the same way. Every game we play gives us more information on how to play, and we grow and evolve in our playstyles...some take it farther and change their outward personality for every game. Meta data gathered on a specific person isn't stable enough for me to consider worth using.

Neither is it as malleable as you make out. A person's playstyle is something that is normally fairly constant throughout their play. Sure, a player might improve, but that doesn't mean all meta-tells disappear, simply that they change. Yes, it's a lot of work, but it's vastly more accurate than applying blanket tells.

I understand where you are coming from, but please don't put words into my mouth or attempt to take my meaning and put it on a grander scale than which I meant it for.

All I am saying is that pegging someone as scum based on how they act in other games is not necessarily relevant for THIS game, and if it's the only reason you have for suspecting a person, then it's not strong enough to warrant a vote.

I think actually you've misunderstood me. I'm talking about the applicability of tells and whether such things are tells for a person as scum. If someone was brash in one game as town, and was courteous in another, that doesn't make them scum, as there's no meta-evidence that that's not simply a playstyle change. It does show, however, that brashness is not necessarily a scumtell for that person.

[Shanba]

Depends on the players and depends on the game. If scumtells were something only scum did, then the town would never lose. I see a lot of players, new and old, make posts and actions that could be considered scumtells...when they are not scum.

Right, see, that's my point.

a scumtell is something that scum do more than town?

Nothing a scum does makes them 100% scum, a scumtell is simply something that indicates a scum, i.e, something that scum do more often than town. Doesn't mean town don't do it.

Right, exactly. All I mean is when someone uses that meta data as the ONLY means to form a case on someone...with nothing solid from the current game...then I feel it should be dropped.

I think we have the nub of the issue here. I don't see any reason why meta-data is any worse than any other data when it comes to whether someone is scummy or not. It's true that kab should reveal his meta-data, or it's not useful. It's also sketchy metagaming at best, as it could simply be that Aimee was devoting time to games she thought were more important/interesting

I'm actually gonna drop this argument here as unproductive and distracting. Let's get back to lynching kabenon. On the plus side, knowing a bit more about your MO will hopefully let me get a better read on you

[Shanba]

Why does that votecount say end of day?

[Shanba]

I demand more elaboration from mispeled.

[Shanba]

Eh, actually that's a scumday.

I've now been on the site a year. That's slightly cool, and slightly disturbing.

[Shanba]

Also, Flameaxe was the only person besides me against Kabenon's lynch.

I kind of think the problem is that you were

for

Kabenon's lynch:

- kabenon007 is acting like he might be scum with Flameaxe. this doesn't work the other way around, though.

... I'm not sure if kabenon's claim makes sense ...

... But kabenon is pretty scummy, even without the claim. So I'm okay with a lynch.

but you didn't ever commit to it. That reads strongly as bussing to me.

I took it into my head to do a little digging too, and vampyrusddg, your predecessor, also reads as scum.

I don't agree with the case on Kaben, and I think your trying hard to find something that isn't there Sephiroth. You can find someone scummy and find someone voting on them scummy, possibly getting on the wagon to bus their buddy at an oppurtune point. Theres no real contradiction there, just scum hunting.

This is his only comment on Kabenon, and at the end of the post he FoSses Sephiroth for attacking kab.

There's also the issue that he doesn't really commit to any attacks. He FoSses a lot of people, but never changes his vote (in fact, he says this: "But at least that saves me the trouble of moving it " when he stops attacking Seph and starts attacking ckd. It's also notable that he goes from FoSsing Seph and agreeing with ckd to attacking ckd and saying Seph made an eloquen case against him.) He's afraid to commit, perhaps, because then 180 turns like the one he made from ckd to Seph will be easier to slip in unnoticed.

Vote: mispeled

[Shanba]

Sephiroth's barning of me is fairly disturbing.

Flameaxe, apart from Mizzy, do you think anyone else is scum? Also, which posts does your gut dislike?

Playing with 4 players is an interesting experience, but not particularly productive.

[Shanba]

Eh, you answered the first question but not the second.

[Shanba]

Almost every post is not too helpful.

Meh. I don't think this line of questioning is particularly fruitful.

Where are Atticus/Tinvision?

[Shanba]

oh, Atticus has posted today.

[Shanba]

And Tinvision yesterday. Reading is tech.

[Shanba]

Atticus: What did you think of my case on mispeled?

[Shanba]

Flameaxe, I hate you.

We're in lylo, but we have 6 alive. We should consider massclaim and no lynch. I'm in favour of both.

[Shanba]

Flameaxe, I hate you.

We're in lylo, but we have 6 alive. We should consider massclaim and no lynch. I'm in favour of both.

It's going to be neigh impossible to do much with two lurkers. I'll consider a no-lynch but...I think I'd rather try and work out who's scum.

No-lynching helps with that. 6 alive means more possible suspects than 5 alive, a boon for us, as we've been fairly fragmented on who we think is suspicious thus far.

[Shanba]

um, spree of quick votes = bad? If either mizzy and seph or mizzy and tin are town, then scum can quicklynch.

Heck, even flameaxe didn't vote straight out of the box, and he's been gunning for mizzy all game. Sephiroth, what are you trying to do? Mizzy, do you think voting

another

player really is a good move? From your perspective, unless the scum team is tin and seph, town is screwed.

[Shanba]

Hum. If tin is town, we're at an impasse, as we can't lynch scum without his vote. So we either need a replacement or we're forced to lynch him anyway, which sucks, because I'm not certain he's scum.

Seph, you've barely mentioned mizzy this game, and now she's scum? What happened to atticus and tinvision being scum, and whyhas mizzy overtaken tin in your scumlist?

[Shanba]

That early kab distancing really worked out well. Pushing the lynch wagon on him was good, too. Elias is an amazing scum partner - I'm astonished at the way he managed to make pushing a mislynch look like a townie move. Major kudos for that. With both of us looking town, it was simply a case of pushing enough wagons to look like we were scumhunting while not pushing too many too hard - the mizzy - flameaxe situation was simply awesome for us, as it was inevitably going to lead to one of them being lynched and all we had to do was sit back and wait. The Mispeled wagon was good fun, as it distracted from the mizzy/flameaxe thing until it would hurt them in endgame. We eventually had a scenario where it would probably have been possible to get a mislynch on any of the surviving townies with 6p alive.

Kab - sorry about the bus, but it really worked out well.

There were some bits that were sloppy - my distancing with Elias early on when I replaced in was bad and Elias' abdication of responsibility towards the end made me wonder whether it would be necessary to bus him too, but it worked out alright. It was great to replace in to a position where I wasn't suspected, my predecessor had been playing reasonably well, and it was awesome the way all the power roles just melted into insignificance.