Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[Setael]

No problem. I'm not usually online much on weekends but I'll read the thread as soon as I can.

[Setael]

It's taking me longer to read the thread than I expected. Unexpectedly busy in RL. I'm up to page 8 and will have time to read more tomorrow.

One thing I just read that really stood out: Mexal’s reaction to sudo_nym speculating about whether Mexal had a power role or not sounded town (post 173) but Jitsu’s reaction to the same issue sounded scummy, especially:

You have put any town power roles in far greater danger of being NK'ed than they were before, in exchange for what information? Helping the town get a slightly better read on Mexal? If I were scum, I would make that trade in a heartbeat.

With subtly suggesting the massclaim earlier, and now providing valuable information to scum, you've now commited two cardinal sins of Mafia on Day 1. If you do come up town, this is probably some of the worst Day 1 town play I've ever seen.

This just sounded like something scum would say to someone they know is a townie.

A lot of meat already for the first 8 pages. Mmmm.... meat.

[Setael]

I'm only up to p. 15 but I want to post what I have thus far so I get it in before the deadline.

Abstract Actuary sounded town in post 79, but then post 99 is weird – how could he not think Jitsu in post 40 was trying to look town? 229 I wanna feel is town, but could see scum typing this to look town. Says he wants “everyone's opinion and gut feelings on everything and everyone” when he hasn't provided that himself. (Mexal calls him out on it in 230) 236 super wishy washy “To be honest, I haven't got much of a scum read on anyone at this point.” Still saying everyone should present suspicions without bothering to do it himself.

Sudo_Nym's posts 69, 145 and 292 are all scummy – defends both korlash and mexal, planting one foot firmly on each side of the fence.

Jitsu’s points against Anata seem sound, as the reasons she gave for suspecting him were pretty hollow. The other 2 votes on her just looked like pressure. Then she never really responded to Jitsu, maybe because she didn’t have a response that wouldn’t look scummy. If she had a better case, she'd have presented it in the first place so all she really could've said was "You're right, my case was crap" or "I was lazy and just picked a gut feeling on someone to present a half-assed case on". Anything she could’ve said would’ve looked like backtracking.

curiouskarmadog– post 81 looked town, post 298 was really odd timing to say he has no problem with anata. Looks like he knows anata would come up town; 304 says anata is just lazy. Though I agree with him that this is probably the main reason for her subpar posts, it’s odd that ckd disregards the other reasons for the anata votes (namely, that she didn’t respond to jitsu). Mexal jumps on this and the next several posts ckd is forced to explain why he disagrees about anata. Seems like his aim was just to post that he didn’t think she was scum and let it go, but then Mexal didn’t let him get away with it. Says he doesn’t think mexal is reading the thread. That’s outright ridiculous. Mexal points out that ckd is defending anata. It’s not bussing (since I’m not scum) and in fact, would scum really defend a buddy THIS obviously? Rather, it looks like ckd KNOWS anata would come up town and defended her to get townie points if she ended up mislynched. I don’t think he expected mexal to call him on it and push him the way he did.

On another note, this is why I don’t think Mexal is reading this game either. He asked me why I thought Anata was lazy (even inquired where I got that idea), but agreed entirely with Jitsu’s post even voted. If you actually read Jitsu’s post, you would know where and why I thought people basically just think Anata is lazy.

imo this statement is more contrived and skewed than anything anata ever came up with.

Also weird that jerubbaal says he doesn’t like the Miztef vote on ckd without going further into it. Does he think Miztef is bussing ckd, or does he really see nothing wrong with ckd’s Anata defense?

Korlash's defense of sudo felt off. Long-winded responses/defense. Due to his playstyle, he will likely be lynched before too long, even though he’s probably just a townie who likes to be the center of attention. Attacks Mexal for adding a vote to Anata wagon without giving a reason. Mexal's vote looked like an obvious pressure vote - odd that korlash wouldn't let it go as a pressure vote. Also odd that he focused on Mexal when Jerubbaal did the same thing with his anata vote. Sudo pipes in that he has no problem with korlash attacking mexal for his anata vote. This seems off, as though Sudo is just trying to be agreeable and picked something to agree with that really wasn't that town.

Jitsu's post 40 was awfully early for this type of analysis posts. Trying too hard to look town. Seems like it worked pretty well for him since nearly every player called him town for it. 179 directs the cop which if not scummy is anti town; 249 seems to intentionally misunderstand sudo; 279 warning to “Be careful” looks scummy - can't tell if he's just warning korlash or if he's trying to deflect from mexal, but it definitely seems like he had a motive; 302 says his scum list matches mexal’s. Odd that he’s forgotten sudo when he was attacking him not long before.

oEJo (now Flay) - 82 seems town on the surface, but the only person he’s voiced suspicioun of is miztef. Then in post 260 this scummy little gem:

This is... blah. I am basically getting a town read from everyone. Well done, scum.

Flay suspicious of Anata and therefore voting me. Can't say I blame him since my predecessor's posts left much to be desired. The most likely explanation (based on the fact that she was town) is that she recognized she'd played terribly and wasn't going to be able to dig herself out. She'd look scummy all game and eventually be mislynched. So lucky me, I get to inherit that role. Yes, her posts were meh. No, she wasn't scum.

Miztef's 129 and 210 are scummy – bad reasons for his scum list

GunslingerKB - 181 protown – finally someone pointing out jitsu’s attempt to look protown, 223 apologizes for sloppy play, vows to do better

Mexal– 132 good sudonym points, but seems to be assuming korlash is town; a few people say they think mexal looks the most town. Seems like it's being too widely accepted that Mexal and Jerubbaal are obvTown.

@Mexal and Jerubbaal: can you both link to your best game as scum. I've only seen Mexal as town and his arguments are always so solid that I think if he was scum I'd follow him clear to lylo and be the reason for a town loss. It might be awhile before I get around to reading these, but if I survive a few days I'll want to do so. I'll try not to go overboard with the metagaming, I just want to see if you have seemed this generally obvtown to players as scum.

[Setael]

You're calling my post silly because I didn't attack "my two biggest opponents"? I didn't actually check the current wagons before I posted, and I certainly didn't try to skew my read in order to make my "opponents" look scummy. Instead, I read the thread looking for scum. Can you explain what's silly about my approach?

[Setael]

Ok so I finished my read.

Post 374 jitsu seems to be trying to make everyone think they have to vote mitzef and sounds like he thinks the deadline is the next day with no time for anything to change. I thought this was strange considering there was plenty of time for new arguments/wagons at that point.

If you remember Mexal, you made me comment on Anata.

This statement backs up my thought that ckd's intention was to comment subtly in passing so that he could point back to it later when anata came up town. It didn't work out that way because mexal made him clarify. I don't think he ever expected this much attention to be drawn to his original Anata defense.

393 jitsu seems really self conscious about his mitzef vote

gunslinger post 446 is scummy and later 470

I would say that our best lynch options for today would be mitzef or anata. There have been many points made over the course of these pages, and Mitz and anata have both done suspicious things. The way i figure, Anata would be a good first day choice. She clearly made some summy statements, and we all have picked up on them.

This general type statement telling the town that they all have picked up on something without stating what it is feels so scummy. He's reiterating and summarizing and piggy backing on others' arguments without going into any detail at all - basically just playing it too safe.

korlash does the same thing as ckd with the anata defense, but i've seen no reason to doubt his claim. I've never played a game that had a mafia roleblocker but several of my games have had town roleblockers.

Post 473 - I don't recall gunslinger having a problem with ckd’s defense of anata, but he attacks and votes korlash for it. @gunslinger: Can you clarify why you ignored ckd's anata defense but attacked korlash's? (And if I'm wrong, please point out where you attacked ckd for it). This could either be evidence of a possible ckd - gunslinger link, or is just gunslinger picking and choosing who to attack which I don't see a townie doing.

So my scum list is ckd, gunslinger and jitsu. mexal and jerubbaal seemed town and Mr. Flay and Adel both seem town as well. A lot of the other players weren't active enough to get a good read.

I need to reread the mitzef wagon before deciding who to vote.

[Setael]

As for Setael, you acknowledge that my points against Anata seem sound but then you say that I am trying too hard to look town.

This really looked like you were trying to twist my arguments by switching the order of events, so I looked back at my post. My pbpa of you came after my comments about the Anata case so I guess I can see why you placed them out of order here. As I'm sure you know, that's not how it happened. I thought you were trying too hard to look pro-town way back in the first pages with your fancy analysis post when the random voting stage was barely over. Your points against Anata were quite a bit later.

Oh. And do you think scum never make sound arguments? The fact that your arguments against Anata were justified doesn't mean you're a townie. Scum is just as motivated as town (if not more) to make sure their arguments are solid.

I admitted my mistake in 179.

Nice of you to do, but the point still stands. I would expect anyone who directs the cop and then gets negative attention for it to admit it was a mistake.

Regarding 279, you say that it "definitely seems like I had a motive". Perhaps you missed this, because I explained it in post 339 (the part where I respond to post 292).

Post 339 is quite a wall of text. Please quote yourself where you explained this. By the way, my actual point which you extracted a portion of was:

279 warning to “Be careful” looks scummy - can't tell if he's just warning korlash or if he's trying to deflect from mexal, but it definitely seems like he had a motive

As for 302, I can't see how my scum list matching Mexal's is suspicious, because I had been talking about how I found Anata, Miztef, and Gunslinger scummy for some time before that. I can see why people might think I'm acting (I have admitted it could look that way), but it seems to me that you are really reaching to make that case here.

Once again you're extracting only a part of my argument and twisting it to paint me as scummy. My actual point was that I found it odd that you had just dropped sudo from your list when you had been attacking him previously and hadn't given a reason to no longer be suspicious of him. Actual post:

302 says his scum list matches mexal’s. Odd that he’s forgotten sudo when he was attacking him not long before.

I don't know where you get the idea that I was implying there was a deadline.

Way back on Oct. 31 (post 374) you said there would not be enough time for an anata wagon and then said "I don't see anyone else making a strong case against any other candidate" so you therefore decided to change your vote to miztef. My points, which I evidently wasn't clear enough about, is that you were talking as if the deadline was Nov. 1 or 2, as though there was no time for anyone else to make another case or start another wagon. I have only seen a post like this made right before deadline when it's too late to really start anything new and that is their main reason for jumping on a wagon.

Maybe you have your facts mixed up a little because, in YOUR post 656, you mention:

I'm only up to p. 15 but I want to post what I have thus far so I get it in before the deadline.

What deadline were you speaking of?

Yeah that post (my 656) was on Nov. 14. The deadline was on Nov. 15. What deadline do you think I was talking about?

NOW you find Gunslinger scummy after I questioned you on it.

Whoa, whoa whoa. Are you REALLY implying that I only found gunslinger scummy because you asked about him? Please remember that in my first post I had only read half the thread. I did not find gunslinger scummy in the first 15 pages. My second post (once I had read the entire thread) contained my suspicion of gunslinger because everything noteably scummy he did that I saw was after p. 15. You may say that he was doing the things I noticed the entire game, but I didn't notice anything noteworthy until after p. 15.

I'll be happy to unvote if something turns up later, but you are still at the top of my scum list.

This seems so off to me. Why say that about being happy to unvote "if something turns up later"? This almost sounds like you're expecting me to be a power role. You're not saying that if I start seeming really town you'll unvote, you say "if something turns up later". Do you mean that if someone starts looking scummier you'd unvote me? Why would someone else looking scummy make me less scummy? I found this sentence really odd. I can't see a townie who really thinks I'm scum saying this.

It sounds like you are being careful to keep your facts straight while you cast suspicion and make indirect attacks toward me, yet avoid a direct confrontation. When you keep pointing the finger at me and refuse to address my points, it just makes you look even scummier.

Interesting. I guess you could say that all these times you've snipped my quotes to paint me as scummy and misrepresented my arguments is you NOT trying to keep your facts straight. Does that make you town? Oh, and can you give examples of how I'm "being careful to keep my facts straight while I cast suspicion" as well as examples of indirect attacks I've made. Oh, and also how I've avoided direct confrontation. And one more thing. Please show where I have refused to address your points, keeping in mind that this is the first chance I've had to address any posts made since my read.

I find Setael's analysis notably crappy and irrelevant.

Wow. That's harsh. The whole thing, really? Or just certain parts? How are the things that I found scummy in my read irrelevant? You may not agree, but how does that make my analysis "crappy and irrelevant?"

[Setael]

I guess you missed where I've already addressed that.

i've seen no reason to doubt his claim. I've never played a game that had a mafia roleblocker but several of my games have had town roleblockers.

I think Flay has a point that the mafia would see korlash as someone they could get lynched much more easily than mexal. In fact, mafia would probably then feed us statements like "I guess the mafia wasnt too worried about him., thoughts?"

[Setael]

@Adel: Can't answer at this juncture, as most of them are ongoing. (Only a few of my games have ended). Of finished games, Mafia vs. Wolves had a town roleblocker and it was a much more useful power role than korlash seems to think. He was able to pinpoint the mafia because he blocked them at near lylo which prevented a NK (two nights in a row actually).

@ckd: Though I find korlash's defense of anata odd for the same reasons I find your defense of anata odd, I am not willing to lynch a claimed power role.

Why do you want me to vote you so badly? Tell me why you are a better candidate than jitsu or gunslinger whom I also find scummy, and I'll consider awarding you with my vote.

[Setael]

Check out a game called "Pick Your Poison" Adel. I can't talk about it, but I'm just mentioning the title to let you know that you're wrong.

[Setael]

@ckd: You really have a bad habit of misconstruing what people say. This is probably why you're not the best scum hunter. You do this thing where you pick someone who is actually a townie (though you don't know that until they card flip), and you interpret what they say in a way that will get them to fit into your scum mold. I have seen you do this as town, so no I'm not sure enough about your alignment to vote you. Yes, I think that if scum chose to not kill a power role, they would then be motivated to plant WIFOM arguments like the statement you made, in order to try to get the town to mislynch a power role. Does that mean I know for sure you are scum and that's what you were doing? Nope. You could've said it as town too so why does that mean I HAVE to vote you? As I said, I'm looking at 3 players I find scummy ALL of which I could be wrong about and ALL of which could be scum buddies. I haven't decided which to vote for. You're doing a good job at fighting for the top spot though. Keep it up.

[Setael]

Ah. Nevermind - Pick Your Poison has ended. That's the main one I was avoiding referring to since mafia chose Town Roleblocker as one of the roles, but that wasn't disclosed and I thought the game was ongoing and that I shouldn't refer to it at all.

So Open 32, BM's Mystery Mafia, mini 480 and Mafia vs. Wolves which you ignored for some reason. That's 4 which is more than a few and can be considered "several". So I'd appreciate you taking back your little snipe about me being evasive.

[Setael]

Adel, I think you missed one or two of my posts. I think if you read them all, you'll see that your "case" on me, however small it was, was inaccurate from the start.

[Setael]

Can someone tell me how to pull up Korlash's posts in other games? I can't figure it out.

[Setael]

Oddly enough, while looking for what everyone's talking about in korlash's other games I found this:

WRONG! When I am mafia I find that I am actually a very unhelpful goon, but tend to be very good when I am say the mafia RB or the Don... saying I am a helpful goon obviously means you missed something!

Theres a mafia RB too? o.O Now that role would work... cause then you would at least have some kind of understanding of who could be who... Instead of having to guess...

Regardless of the fact that korlash says he was joking in 521 and is always town, it seems clear from that post that he at least knows that the role of mafia RB exists which he is later denying. I can't see any reason a townie would lie in this situation (unless it's ABR and I'd like to hope he's the only one that fits that profile).

vote: korlash

[Setael]

Setael: She cast the L-1 vote for Korlash, in a scummy way.

Please expound. How was it scummy? I found a post no one else had mentioned that imo proved korlash had lied. Everything else being used was from ongoing games and could only be hinted at but the one I found was in this game so I quoted it.

There was actual evidence found that korlash lied. I was more confident about my vote for him than I usually am because of the contradiction I found in his posts. I was not surprised he was hammered fast because there was just no other way to explain his contradictions other than that he was lying about his role claim. I am much more suspicious of those who read the thread and then didn't vote korlash (or didn't at least bother to check the meta that was being hinted at).

I have a question for everyone who didn't vote for Korlash. Did you check the thread, read the posts pointing out his contradictions and lies and then not vote? If so, why? What reasons did you have for still thinking he wasn't scum after those posts? (I recognize that not everyone will have read the thread since the hammer came so quickly but I'd like to hear from those that did and decided not to vote).

[Setael]

Wow. Three votes in one hour is impressive. Take a bow, Adel. Oh wait, you already did. Votes piling on that fast is especially ironic considering how up in arms everyone is about how fast the korlash wagon was. I put korlash at -1 because I found a post that proved he had lied in THIS game, without even needing to use his other ongoing games. The only "case" that has been presented against me is the statement "someone must have been bussing so vote Setael!!" Some case.

There were three posts in question. The first post in this game that he mentions not knowing about the role, a much later post in this game where he defends his ignorance about the role and the post/events from the other game. The post/events from the other game came after the first post in question.

If it came before then the case would be as cut and dry as many were saying.

The fact that it game before his defensive post was bad, but not damning, in my opinion.

I bolded that part to emphasize since it WAS "as cut and dry as many were saying" if you take post 521 into account, which for some reason you aren't. You are saying that post 585 was the first of your "three posts in question" where he says he doesn't know about the role. I'll repost mine here for you, since you seem to be unaware of his post 521 which was long before 585 (the one you're stating was the first post made). Anyone who read my post and compared korlash's posts 521 and 585 would have seen that he had obviously lied.

Oddly enough, while looking for what everyone's talking about in korlash's other games I found this:

WRONG! When I am mafia I find that I am actually a very unhelpful goon, but tend to be very good when I am say the mafia RB or the Don... saying I am a helpful goon obviously means you missed something!

Theres a mafia RB too? o.O Now that role would work... cause then you would at least have some kind of understanding of who could be who... Instead of having to guess...

Regardless of the fact that korlash says he was joking in 521 and is always town, it seems clear from that post that he at least knows that the role of mafia RB exists which he is later denying. I can't see any reason a townie would lie in this situation (unless it's ABR and I'd like to hope he's the only one that fits that profile).

vote: korlash

[Setael]

CKD, you're misrepresenting me, especially with statements like this one:

Here

he is not willing to lynchd a claimed power role (as we know that changes has it becomes obvious that Korlash will be lynched)

I'm never willing to lynch an uncounter-claimed power role without reason. This quickly changes when it's proven they're a scummy liar. Is that so surprising? It is a lie to say that I changed my mind because "it was obvious Korlash would be lynched". Evidently it wasn't obvious he'd be lynched to everyone who thinks the wagon was too fast. It was, however, obvious he was lying after I saw post 521 and THAT is why I changed my mind. You're making false assumptions about me which is either careless or scummy. Or both.

When the argument was first being discussed 521 hadn't been found yet. I agree that 585 was definitely a lie in light of 521. Most people didn't vote for Korlash with that fact in hand (only you and possibly jerubbaal did). I did miss the significance of post 521 when I first read your post since I realized that a hammer had just fallen. In my first read, I just read the strange way he explains how he plays as scum.

That post doesn't clear you as town, but it justifies your vote, in my opinion.

Well, thank you for that concession. Care to tell me what you think of everyone else who thinks my vote WASN'T justified? Do you think they missed the significance of post 521 like you did, or are they intentionally ignoring it?

[Setael]

Korlash was the biggest advocate of slowing down an Anata112 lynch on day 1.

I'd call you a liar, but I think your problem is just that you are sloppy. Did you really forget about CKD's defense of Anata, or are you just choosing to ignore it because it weakens your argument? At least you admit that you did it as well, but it is entertaining that you use it as evidence that korlash was defending a scum buddy, and yet claim it means nothing that you did the same thing.

@CKD: I sense that you're wanting me to admit I was wrong about your scum hunting ability. Ok, I admit it. After that game where we were masons together, I thought you were the worst scum hunter ever. Nice guy, but you were wrong about everyone you suspected. You had elaborate, convincing cases on several townies that you pushed until you finally got them mislynched. (Am I wrong about this?) Your hunch that korlash was scum made me think he was probably town.

I don't believe that you were bussing korlash, and you have redeemed yourself as far as my assumptions about you went. You were right about korlash, and you were right about Anata when you defended her. Apology accepted?

[Setael]

This was a good analysis, jitsu, up until that last paragraph.

Setael did not even mention her desire to look up the meta on him until (792)

I didn't know how to quickly find posts from other games. I tried to figure it out but wasn't getting anywhere, so I asked in the thread.

her criticism of Korlash before that didn't really stand out to me as being stronger than anyone else's

I don't think I criticized him much at all once he claimed. I believed the claim until it became obvious he was lying.

Korlash's reason for voting her was so crappy, it should have been obvious that noone would believe it. To me, it seems that he was either trying to distance from her (in a clumsy attempt to protect her) or trying to make it look like he was distancing from her (in a somewhat more subtle attempt to get her mislynched).

Do you really think that was a serious vote? I was attacking both korlash and ckd for defending anata because it looked like they both KNEW she was town. He responds with a vote on me for not thanking him for the anata defense. I did not comment on that vote because it was obviously a joke.

I appreciate you unvoting to avoid a quicklynch, even though I agree that is unlikely. If I get to -1, I will expect to be allowed to claim, though I will not do so before -1.

[Setael]

I appreciate you unvoting to avoid a quicklynch, even though I agree that is unlikely. If I get to -1, I will expect to be allowed to claim, though I will not do so before -1.

Wow. Korlash version 2? What a scummy, terrible town play. You're basically claiming at L-3.

How am I claiming at -3? In case you got confused, I haven't claimed. It's ironic you'd say this since the whole point of my statement is to say I WILL NOT claim before -1.

LOL, this does seem Korlash-ish...now I want to hear the claim..saying this is just going to make people push to put you to -1

Interesting reaction. I would expect townies to NOT push me to -1 just to hear a claim.

also, why would you not just wait till -1 to claim, what was the motivation behind posting this? All decent mafia players know to wait at -1 for a claim.

I'd like to hope that is true, but there's always a chance someone will hammer without waiting for a claim. Could be an accident if someone loses track of votes, or maybe they'd be under the impression I've already claimed (maybe because of Abstract's statement which could definitely give that impression). Yes, I'm paranoid someone will hammer before I claim. Evidently you give the average mafia player more credit than I do.

@jitsu: I was referring to your last paragraph, not counting that sentence at the end. The one I picked apart. If you read my whole post, that should've been obvious. This paragraph:

But why would Korlash vote for her when he did? Setael had not even hinted she was interested in the meta then -- Korlash voted her (785), complained again about the Day 1 wagon on Anata (786), then fixed his vote for Setael (787). Setael did not even mention her desire to look up the meta on him until (792), and her criticism of Korlash before that didn't really stand out to me as being stronger than anyone else's (I need to reread this). Korlash's reason for voting her was so crappy, it should have been obvious that noone would believe it. To me, it seems that he was either trying to distance from her (in a clumsy attempt to protect her) or trying to make it look like he was distancing from her (in a somewhat more subtle attempt to get her mislynched). I'm more inclined to believe the former than the latter.

[Setael]

CKD, I have responded to all of this. See posts 828 and 834.

[Setael]

Here's the thing about bussing, boys. You're accusing ME of bussing, which I know is incorrect. Do you really expect me NOT to disagree with that possibility? I'm actually pretty proud of the evidence I found against korlash and I think jerubbaal's hammer based on that evidence was completely understandable. I can see why you'd assume korlash's buddies wanted to be on the wagon, but as you've pointed out yourselves it was pretty quick and they may not have even had a chance to jump on before I put him at -1 and jerubbaal hammered. If anyone was bussing it was Flay, and I don't think he was either. He's one of the most experienced players here and I'd think he'd be more careful than that post was. I guess that's WIFOM but the bottom line is I don't have any more reason to believe that he or jer were bussing than you have to believe that I was bussing, so why should I agree with you about them when you're wrong about me?

[Setael]

Jitsu, you're post 854 doesn't make sense at all. Don't say things that paint me in a scummy light and then say "Why are you even commenting on this?"

[Setael]

No you have not, please explain (or repost) why you are bringing up Korlash in post 834, in reference to the discussion about you discrediting me. At the time, you tried to discredit me, I had not mentioned my opinion on Korlash yet. WE were talking about you. You chose to discredit me, because I was then focusing on you and not Korlash.

Your hunch that korlash was scum made me think he was probably town.

If you quote the whole paragraph, it makes sense.

@CKD: I sense that you're wanting me to admit I was wrong about your scum hunting ability. Ok, I admit it. After that game where we were masons together, I thought you were the worst scum hunter ever. Nice guy, but you were wrong about everyone you suspected. You had elaborate, convincing cases on several townies that you pushed until you finally got them mislynched. (Am I wrong about this?) Your hunch that korlash was scum made me think he was probably town.

The last statement about korlash is an example of an assumption I made based on my feeling that you were not a good scum hunter. Your posts against korlash weren't until later and that is when I thought this. Regardless, I looked into the meta and found evidence that korlash had lied. You seem to be thinking I'm using this statement to discredit you, which is not the case. I was using it as an example of something I thought based on the assumption I made about you.

You also didn’t answer the question, why did you try to discredit me without providing all the information fully or even providing a link. You deliberately misrepresented me, and I want to know why. I also want to know why when I asked you about Korlash, you tried to deflect and suggest I was scum and then later threaten me.

I did not misrepresent you. I can find quotes where you said yourself that you were a horrible scum hunter in that game. I have admitted I shouldn't have assumed your play would be the same here.

again with the insinuations. Set, if you think I am scum, put a case forward, and quit hiding behind, threats and suggestions.

Am I pushing you to claim? Am I even voting you right now? No, we are just having conversation. All I said is after that post, I want to hear your claim. Before that post, I would have waited at –1, but now you see fit to remind us to wait, I am curious now. human nature does not equal scummy. Can you provide a link to any of your ended games that you made such a statement before (because surely if you don’t have faith in players in this game and you don’t have faith in players in other games) Or am I going to have to meta you too?

I have put a case forward, ckd. What threats? What suggestions? Do I need to say "that is scummy." after everything I point out about you in order to make it an accusation instead of a suggestion?

I'm not going to say anything else about claiming until I'm at -1. Meta all you want, it will do you no good in this particular situation.

Oh and please look over Abstract's post 843 before telling me I should assume players are smart enough to know when someone's at -1 and who has and hasn't claimed.

[Setael]

Regarding Setael's vote justification on Korlash on Day 2, if you thought the reason for Setael's vote was good earlier in the day, why did you start a wagon on her then? And now you are unvoting her simply because someone suggested that she found it earlier and held onto it until she needed it?

Can someone remind me who first suggested that I saw 521 earlier and didn't say anything? I was thinking it was Jitsu but here he says "someone" suggested it. That argument really is a stretch - like Flay said, it would be a weird thing for either scum or town to do. Whoever suggested it first - you are my new top suspect.

I won't have time until tomorrow morning to look through the thread and find it, so if someone else has a few spare minutes, I'd appreciate you looking it up for me.

[Setael]

To put some weight behind Adel's threat, I will vote Oman if he doesn't start posting content. Gunslinger was one of my top suspects D1 and Oman hasn't given me any reason to change my mind about him.

@Jitsu - thanks for looking up that post.

vote: Abstract Actuary

[Setael]

Setael's reason for voting AA was weak

Does that mean that you think this:

You may have had this piece of information in your back pocket all along and been waiting to use it until you saw that a Korlash lynch was inevitable.

is an argument likely to be made by a townie? Cuz I don't. I obviously didn't notice this until Flay pointed it out, but what Abstract accused me of makes no sense for either town OR scum. It's contrived to make me look scummy, which makes it a good argument against Abstract. He hasn't acknowledged it, which makes it look increasingly like a good argument.

re: Adel's refusal to present a case on Flay - I'm not seeing FlayScum and I think it's ridiculous to think you can successfully get the town to lynch someone without ever presenting a case on them. I won't be joining the Flay wagon.

[Setael]

Jitsu, your entire case on Flay is based on the assumption that I am scum. Just for fun, reread assuming I'm TOWN and see if you still think Flay is scum. This read will be more accurate, since it's not founded on false assumptions.

[Setael]

But for now, I still find myself coming back to Flay and Satael as a pair. In addition to all the other evidence, they are the two people whose reactions toward each other I can explain the least. Setael seems to be deflecting for Flay repeatedly, and Flay's opinion of Setael has changed from guilty, to suspicion on her detractors, to undecided about her, to her being innocent without a really good reason why.

Jitsu, though you have listed reasons for suspecting Flay that don't have to do with me, you are still flagging us as a scum pair and basing a lot of your suspicion on that. To put it into perspective for you, pick a player you generally believe to be innocent. For argument's sake, I'll pick ckd for you since I don't remember you suspecting him much. Now for the sake of our little role play, imagine you are a townie. Players start posting that they think you and ckd are scum buddies and in fact many of their reasons for suspecting ckd are based on the fact that they think YOU are scum. You don't know ckd's alignment, of course, but you do know YOUR alignment and therefore know that they are making incorrect assumptions about ckd. How would this affect your reaction to the ckd case? Would you defend him, or at least state that you don't agree with the case on him?

Maybe this will clarify things for you. I could be wrong about Flay, but if it's being assumed that he and I are BOTH scum, I find myself disregarding the arguments since I know the foundation is flawed.

[Setael]

Instead of defending youself against my individual points against you, you asked me to reread assuming that you are town, and you seem to dismiss my points on you because because I've presented the theory that you are scum with Flay.

This is not accurate. I told you to reread assuming I'm town to see if you still thought Flay was scum. My request for you to do so had nothing to do with your points against me.

It seems like a weak reason for to vote him when you would have had stronger reasons to vote someone else. In 965 you say that you don't think that was an argument that a townie would make, but then you went on to agree with Flay and say that such a move would be weird both for town and for scum. So why then did you assume AA was guilty because of it? Shouldn't it have been a null tell if you couldn't make sense of it?

This also is inaccurate and shows that you never did understand the argument. The point was that what AA accused me of is very unlikely to be done by

both

town

and

scum and yet he's trying to paint me as scummy for it. To bring it up in the first place was a real stretch and not an argument a townie would come up with imo.

I was first suspicious of AA when he said "Setael: She cast the L-1 vote for Korlash, in a scummy way" which I thought was ridiculous. See my post 807.

AA then said this:

As I say above, Korlash may have cleverly (or inadvertently) set up Setael to be lynched after his demise. Mr. Flay was the first to introduce the concept of a Korlash-Setael connection on day 3 in this post.

Setael was 5th on Korlash's wagon, and Korlash went down with Setael as his vote-target. Interesting...

It isn't much, but Mr. Flay, as scum, may have realized that Setael could be an easy post-Korlash sell and tried to plant the seed early on. I admit, the Setael-Korlash connection is very real.

I know there are a couple big ifs. I'm not advocating a Mr. Flay at this point. There are much better choices for Day 3 in my opinion. I just wanted to get that idea out there now, while it was fresh in my mind.

In this post, AA casts suspicion on both Flay and myself while distancing himself from the whole argument and being careful to not actually accuse Flay, even specifically stating he is not "advocating a Mr. Flay" lynch. He then does not say who all these better choices for Day 3 are. Right after this, Flay votes me not long after Adel votes him and says "Post or perish". The reason he gives for the vote is "because the idea of a "clever" Korlash framing her makes me giggle." I wondered at the time if this was to see what AA would do after his post 815. AA doesn't respond; instead I got 2 quick votes from Adel and Jitsu. AA then votes jerubbaal without commenting on my wagon other than to say he'd be willing to vote me. At this point it's very much looking like he knows I would come up town and wouldn't want to look like he'd been too involved. I originally voted him because of his crap argument against me, but upon rereading I'm starting to think that if some pressure was put on him and he was forced to talk a little more, he'd reveal himself as obvscum pretty quickly.

I don't like how when the wagon formed on you, the person you attacked for it was Adel, making it sound like he was the one responsible. Why did you single him out when Flay started the wagon on you and I jumped on with the L-2 vote?

I assume you are referring to when I said "Three votes in one hour is impressive. Take a bow, Adel. Oh wait, you already did." Look closer. That statement of mine is referring to this statement by Adel:

I'm loving how a bandwagon that consisted of me alone prompted such a reaction. Loving it.

I was giving Adel credit where she was taking it by claiming that her one vote on Flay sparked my wagon, so you probably shouldn't be misconstruing that as a scum tell against me.

I would like to see everyone's thoughts out in the open about myself, Setael, jerubbaal, and Adel, before we lynch anybody.

I think Flay is town, and after his last couple of posts in which he was much clearer about his motivations to stop what was a ridiculously fast and easy wagon, I'm guessing votes will drop off him. I recognize the fact that my feeling that he is town is based largely on the fact that most the arguments against him rely heavily on the assumption that I am scum, regardless of Jitsu's insistence that they don't.

jerubbaal has at least given legitimate reasons to be on the Flay wagon, though experience has told me that scum are more careful to have legitimate reasons than town. That being said, I don't think his hammer was bussing. I personally believe that the evidence I found was irrefutable, and I expected the next townie who logged on to hammer him. I'd have done the same if someone else found what I found.

Adel has refused to post a case on Flay, which I don't know what to make of. If she's scum, it makes sense to do this in order to avoid the negative attention that presenting a case for Flay to defend against would bring upon her, especially if Flay comes up town. I also don't understand what kind of case against Flay a scumbuddy could hide behind if Flay really is scum, but this could be due to my inexperience.

Bottom line is, AA is my #1 and I welcome any and all to join me on his wagon.

[Setael]

I would like to hear what you mean by clumsily made, but I'd appreciate you waiting for AA to respond before doing so.

[Setael]

It is not unlikely to be done by town or scum. Also, I wasn't trying to paint you as scummy for it. I was telling you that it didn't clear you as town. That is very different.

You listed it as one of the ways in which you thought I was bussing. How is that not painting someone as scummy?

A lot of your post was regarding my reaction to this post:

When the argument was first being discussed 521 hadn't been found yet. I agree that 585 was definitely a lie in light of 521. Most people didn't vote for Korlash with that fact in hand (only you and possibly jerubbaal did). I did miss the significance of post 521 when I first read your post since I realized that a hammer had just fallen. In my first read, I just read the strange way he explains how he plays as scum.

That post doesn't clear you as town, but it justifies your vote, in my opinion.

Because your suspicion of me was based on my vote being unjustified, I did read too much into this by asking for your thoughts on all those who refused to see that my vote WAS justified. I was thinking "Someone finally sees the light! I'd like to know what he thinks of those who DID realize the significance of post 521 and yet still think I was bussing."

I realize that I should not have been assuming you'd see things as I was seeing them, especially now that I realize you're probably scum.

I didn't actually vote for you. I listed you as third on my list of suspects in 806 for putting Korlash to L-1 in a scummy way. You did. You put Korlash to L-1 in a scummy way. You made sure to have new information in order to justify your vote for Korlash. Scum is much more likely to feel the need to find a new reason to vote for a scumbuddy near the end of a wagon.

When did I say you voted for me? You cast suspicion on both Flay and I but didn't vote at all. Like I said, "In this post, AA casts suspicion on both Flay and myself while distancing himself from the whole argument and being careful to not actually accuse Flay, even specifically stating he is not "advocating a Mr. Flay" lynch. He then does not say who all these better choices for Day 3 are." You were being overly careful, distancing yourself from your own arguments and not taking a firm stand.

[Setael]

I hear and will obey.

I'm bothered by Adel's bullheadedness and agree with this:

the unwillingness to ever consider moving her vote for the rest of today is anti-town

I'm not willing to vote Flay for reasons I've already stated, so my vote goes to Adel.

unvote; vote: Adel

[Setael]

ckd, is a deadline the only thing that will bump you off your fence?

[Setael]

Scums

Abstract Actuary
some space here
Adel
Oman

Unsure

Sudo_Nym
curiouskarmadog
jerubbaal

Likely Town

Mr. Flay
Jitsu

[Setael]

So, I'm fine with a vote on Adel if you think he is a better lynch than Mr. Flay

@AA - did you really just say you'd vote Adel if CKD thinks you should?

[Setael]

Ok nvm I think I misread your post. What you're saying is you're "fine with" CKD's vote on Adel. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Setael]

Vote: Abstract Actuary

I’m the cop. Last night was the first time I hit scum. N1 I investigated Mexal and N2 I got an innocent on Sudo.

I thought about investigating Adel last night, but after yesterday I thought it would be a wasted investigation since I was sure Adel was scum when Flay came up town. Instead I investigated AA, and I was right. He’s scum.

[Setael]

CKD and AA almost definitely still have a 3rd partner alive, or CKD would not have fake claimed in order to save AA. So even if we lynch CKD and AA, they can still win, unless one of those 2 nights I find the 3rd scum. If we mislynch today they win. I think it's very doubtful there are 2 cops in this game, but I can see why CKD would mention the possibility, since all he has to do is pull off one mislynch for a win.

As for breadcrumbing, I hadn’t finished reading the game when Miztef was lynched. I skimmed the rest of the game and decided to investigate Mexal because everyone seemed to trust him and he was pushing against Anata so hard, who I knew had been cop. If Mexal was scum, I was pretty sure he’d be able to mislynch me so I wanted to know his alignment.

I investigated Sudo because his korlash vote looked like possible bussing, and because he lurked through all of D2. I intentionally never mentioned him after that, even though he was one of my top suspects D1.

So, basically, there are still 3 scum and with 7 players left, if we mislynch today, scum win. The only 2 I will be willing to lynch today are AA or CKD.

[Setael]

As far as Korlash goes, unlike ckd, I believed his claim. I thought he was a protown roleblocker and didn't even consider investigating him. I didn't suspect him until ckd first posted that he had found evidence he lied, and I then found something myself which proved ckd was right.

I was pretty stressed that first night since I was rushed to finish the thread and because Anata had been under so much suspicion. This is my first time as cop so I didn't have any experience to go on. I knew Mexal is a very good player and that he was the main one making solid arguments against Anata that the town was buying. I figured if he was scum he would be able to get me to -1 and I'd have to claim. Mostly though, I just wanted to know the alignment of the person I thought the town was trusting and that I knew was a good player.

ckd asked why I didn't investigate him - his play on the korlash wagon didn't look like bussing at all. (Applause.) I opted to investigate sudo who was lurking pretty hard and who I could see being partners with korlash.

If AA and ckd are the only 2 scum left, it doesn't make sense to me that ckd would fake claim if whoever he accuses is going to come up town, immediately making it obvious that he was lying. Especially since then (if there are only 2 scum) the town would still have enough lynches to take out ckd and AA and win. The only possibility I can think of is that jerubbal is the 3rd and they're bussing him in order to coast to the end. It would work, too, unless I'm missing something. If jerubbal is lynched and comes up scum, the town would likely believe ckd over me since his claim is "proven". If they're then able to get me mislynched, when I come up town cop it will be too late because they'd have a NK and would automatically win.

If after ckd's claim they were able to get me mislynched instead of jerubbal then they've got the cop out of their way and even though the town would then target ckd and AA, jerubbal would look like obvtown since he's the one scum targeted and he'd likely make it to the end.

If there are 3 scum, I can see them deciding to bus one of them since we've been generally assuming there are only 2. There's no SK obviously since there's been one (or none) NK each night so I don't think a 4 person scum team is that unbelievable.

My inexperience with a cop role is obvious. I was more concerned about saying things that would draw a NK before I had a chance to find any scum than I was about breadcrumbing. I kind of clammed up and didn't say much at all except that I didn't think Flay was scum. That was based on the fact that most the case against him was that people thought he and I were scum together which I knew wasn't true. I did say I would not claim until -1 but I realized right away that made me look like I had a power role, so I avoided any other hints like that after that. I thought it made sense to claim right away since I found scum last night.

The only thing that makes sense is there are 3 scum left. Which means if I'm mislynched today we lose. If we lynch any of the 3 scum we have a chance. I would obviously prefer AA or ckd, but I think it's highly likely jerubbaal is the 3rd and would vote him as well.

[Setael]

My theory of 3 scum is either wrong (since if I was right Jerubbaal would've hammered me by now) or I'm wrong about the third scum.

It's up to Oman and Sudo to decide who they believe.

[Setael]

It was worth a shot

[Setael]

Nope. That's why we thought there was a chance there was no cop. And even if there was, if he hadn't investigated jerub we still might have pulled it off.

I feel like the old guy at the end of Scooby Doo.

[Setael]

Probably just feels that way because you were stuck with me and Korlash.

[Setael]

"The rules stop where entertainment begins."

That was great.

Even though it did end badly for scum, it was pretty satisfying to watch Adel and Flay go at each other.

If I were scum I would've been all for the fake-cop claim. I think that was a good move, that just didn't work this time.

If only ckd hadn't investigated jer... that really took the wind out of my sails. good play, ckd. *shakes fist*

[Setael]

@jitsu: There's a reason you drew a NK so early - your arguments were solid and well-made and you were pretty obviously town. Worked well for you in this game because you were protected, but if the doc hadn't guessed right, you'd have been watching most the game.

Also, you analyze more post-game than anyone I've ever met.

[Setael]

I'd like to hope I would be as good an analyzer as jitsu or mexal if I was only in one game at a time and near a computer 10+ hours a day.