Mini 539: Game over

[Claus]

Hey There!

I'm replacing CronX in this fine game. Now, I'm sort of busy for a re-read until new year's eve, but I'll be following the thread, so if someone wants to write me a small sum-up of the goings, It would be appreciated.

Oh, and Hello Incognito! I think that is the only face I recognize here.

unvote

- in case my predecessor voted anyone.

[Claus]

Okay. Sorry for the delay, folks. Happy new year. I'll begin my re-read now.

[Claus]

Ho ho ho. 4 pages out of 11. I'm stopping for today, and should be done by tomorrow if Justin and Ythill do not engage in any more semantics wars in the remaining 6 pages

[Claus]

Wow. I finally finished my re-read. Sorry about the delay, and thanks everyone for the patience.

I'll start writing my first few posts now, so give some time put down my thoughts in words. See you in a few

[Claus]

Short Game Story:

1- Xtomx bandwagon forms during random phase.
2- SSK bandwagon due to his voting of Xtomx
3- Bandwagon dies. Ythill starts questioning everyone, and a lot of people question Apydog for his fleeing the floundering boat.
4- Ythill and Justing begin the Great Semantics War I When Ythill invades Night
5- Game slows down, replacements aplenty.
6- Pressure on Ythil starts to build. 3 votes, but seems more. Ythill claims.
7- Strategy discussion ensues. Ythill wants Incog death. Incog wants someone els.. err, I mean, Ythill dead.
8- Standstill regarding vig plan. People pointing in several suggestions. DS starts gathering votes.


========================

My secret list (as of this post)

The Nice:

Xtomx

: I like his play. He seems direct with his accusations and his defenses. His vote follows his opinions, and his opinions are consistent. Also, he does not verborrage .

Ythill

: IQ 147 boy . Has a tendency to build "infallible secret plans", but when he is not trying to solve the whole game on D1, I like his posts. Has been less wordy the last few pages, which makes me like him more. He attacks other people in a way that I see as honest scumhunting. SK is a possibility.

Shteven

: NightJay was OMGUSy, but from his abandonment, that may be personal. Shteven, on the other hand, seems to be playing solid, and is explicit in his position regarding other players, which is a towntell for me.

Charter

: The little he posted gave me a townie feeling - his case on Apy was good. Then he dissappeared. Needs prodding, but I don't think he is a lynch candidate.

The Unlisted:

Kuribo

:
Kuribo started well, and I though his initial analysis good, even if I didn't agree with some of his points (Suspicion of Ythill, loving JP). His last few posts, however, drew a WTF from me: Fishing for Direction - what is that? Xtomx is scum because he agreed about voting someone he already FoS'ed?

Holden

:
Another lurker. Some of his posts I like (the Apy accusation, the questions to DS, and those to Ythill and Incognito regarding SSF), but he has a very timid style of accusing and not voting, or voting then later saying that he didn't want to lynch the person, that I find scummy. Middle of the road for me.

The Naughty:

MafiaSSK

At first I thought he was either a clueless or a ballsy player with his bandwagon/"I'm lying". But his subsequent lurking, his strange votes on Natude, and specially JP have worsened my opinions of him. Not on the top of my scumlist, but we could do without SSF.

Apydog

Lurker. But the impression I had of him before he dissappeared was really bad, with him jumping up in the SSF bandwagon, and then jumping away after it derailed.

Justin Playfair

About as wordy as Ythill, except that he doesn't really seem to be honestly attacking anyone, and when he is, it is very timid for someone so wordy. Trying to lead the town without dirtying his hands?

And I REALLY don't like his list of possible fakeclaims. The three times out of three that I saw someone do that, they were mafia.

Incognito

He started average, and was on my neutral list until pressure started to fall on him in these last pages. I don't like the way that he reacted to the pressure on him... feels like the last game we played together, where he was scum afterall. And he seems to quickly point to anyone not himself when the heat gets off him.

This seems very similar to post 58, when he overreacts to a small accusation on him. And I have seen it as well in another game we played together.

Disciple Slayer

Votes Apy when it is cool to do so. lurks, but comes back when it is convenient. Shteven vote out of nowhere, and the "hey, let's discuss night strategy". Not lurking - Trying hard to lurk and to look like a VI - not succeeding in either,

=================

What to do:

I don't like the discussion of Power Role strategy at D1. OTOH, I don't find it bad a vig taking suggestion, as long as he remembers that he still is ultimately responsible for accepting the suggestion or not.

Vote: DS

Ythill, if you ask me, you should hit one of those on my Naughty list.

[Claus]

Good Morning! Sorry for the weekend delay.

@Stephen
: About Justin

If you want to see some really long posts, read a few posts from here down. Just skim; they're huge. He was town there; that doesn't prove anything here, but I'd put him in the unlisted section for now.

It is not the length of his posts. It is the fact that I can't really feel that he is attacking anyone (other than his earlier Ythill attacks). Reading him in this game (don't wanna read your link now), I feel I'm listening to a politician about non-popular matters.

@Ythill

:About Apyadg

in #60 (after I have argued that lynching for bad play is not wise), Apyadg still suspects SSK but has decided not to pursue an SSK lynch based on his bad play, so he unvotes;

Basically stated: Apyadg is unsure about strategy but thinks he has a read, he makes up his mind about strategy and acts accordingly without changing the read

Hmmm. No, I don't agree. As you put it, he didn't make his mind, but used your reasons instead to make his mind. He used everyone's reason to vote, and your reasons to unvote. I'm thinking your town read of him might be pride of having convinced him,

:about me

Yay! Somebody likes me (...) so there must be some reasonable dirt on me. At least enough to drop me to MotR on a player analysis? This is especially the case since I spent the early part of the game intentionally dropping minor scumtells as part of my “secret infallible plan.”

Lol. Don't feel so good about yourself. I think you are town, but I don't think your style is so great. You seem to think that this game is much more complex than it really is -- and although I'm not a veteran player by any means, I see things in your play that remind me the first few times I played as town.

Also, you're a claimed power role. Either you believe a claim or you don't. So there is no MotR for you.

Regarding Incog, I agree with you about his alignment but I find it very suspicious when anyone makes a meta-claim about someone without naming the game.

Really? I think you did the same, regarding Nightjay, before? If it means so much to you, the name of the game is on my sig, under "currently playing".


@Incognito:

Claus, I don't think your meta-analysis of me is entirely fair and certainly don't think it should be used to place me on your so-called "Naughty List".
(...)
Further, that game is still ongoing...

Well, you are already dead there, so I don't think we have any problems in the "ongoing" front. And the big point is that your play under fire, and not under fire, on both games, changed significantly and similarly to my eyes.

You started cool (loved your "hate pressure votes" comment), then eventually settled on Apydog. Then when you come under fire by Yth, you set all your cannons on him - eventually to the point of forgetting your previous attacks on Apy.

Same thing with my attack - you question me in an agressive manner because I put you in my suspect list. So I'm partners with Ythill and DS? Where is Apy in your suspicion scale now?

Also, why didn’t you mention anything about Ythill’s role-claim? Do you think that even with his role-claim at L-4, his mistake in “excellent strategy number 4”, and the points I bring up with respect to why his role-claim makes no sense that he still belongs on your “Nice List”? You even listed him as “SK possibility”. That’s a nice thing?

Yup. I love SKs. <3

But seriously, the roleclaim will sort itself, because it is provable. It is kinda like discussing a D1 doctor claim - not worth it. If he really is a vig, the Mafia/SK/Cult will probably off him tonight. If he is not, we will know tomorrow by the number of bodies.

What do you think of your predecessor’s arguments against me? How about his arguments against MafiaSSK?

I can't answer for my predecessors arguments. Do you really want me to do it, or are you just entering OMGUS territory?

@Justin

First let me thank you for calling me timid. My play has been called many things, but timid hasn’t been one of them.

Really? I'm surprised that this is the first time.

How about the fact that even though you are one of the most active posters in the thread, you have only one serious vote in these 15 pages?

let's grab a few posts.

Well, I won't go as far as to vote MafiaSSK yet, but if we're starting to talk let me (unvote Ythill)
(...)
... these last votes you are getting are because of something you did.

You say he is acting odd. You even say that you're unvoting Yth because of this. But you never vote him.

Your post number 7 is a mess. You question Incognito and mention Apy - saying that you want to defend him but you can't? The only think I can make from this post is that you're not taking a position regarding Incognito or Apy.

In your post number 12 you question Apy pretty throughly, and call him oportunist, but don't even FoS him. So what do you think of Apy? Scummy or not scummy? If I say that you think that he is scummy from this post, you can come and say that I'm overstating things. :-/

On post 13 you say that you have a "less than benevolent" view of CronX (me), but you never questioned him before. So we can't even use your questioning posts to know who you suspect. The post about MafiaSSK is just as bad. "A mislynch is a mislynch"? Argh.

Then when Ythill claims you unvote, and without your vote I really have NO CLUE on who you really think is scummy. You just keep saying that you don't like his claim, but you don't seem to be worried about looking for someone else to vote for.

Then you say DS is your number one, but doesn't vote for him.

Your entire post number 26.

So yeah. For a player this chatty, you position yourself little, and vote even less. Still surprised that I'm calling you timid?

I know why I discussed possible false claims in this game, given the situation in which we have found ourselves, but I would love to read the three games you mentioned where this was done by scum. Would you mind directing me to those games?

Why did you discuss possible false claims? The town should wait to discuss false claims until they have been performed. Since townies can only claim their roles, discussing false claims before they happen only benefits scum.

The two games (with three occurrences) were:
Mini 503 - Dead People have powers
- RC was suggested on the first page. Draux promptly discussed the possible fake roleclaims scum would take, and which would be most and least benefitial to the town. He was the last scum.

Open 44 - Two-Fold Mafia
- RC was suggested on D2, and performed on D3. Shaft.ed put up a whole list of RC possibilities on D2, before we agreed not to RC, and Aioqwe did the same on D3. Each was scum in a different scumgroup.

===============
I may comment on the Kuribo x Xtoxm x Ythill love triangle later.

[Claus]

You are absolutely right kuribo. Let's try to keep things short:
(also, I stupidly closed the tab after hitting preview on a rather large response I started to write before this one )

====

@ The kuribo x xtomx x Ythill love triangle:

Oh, you hugged and apologized to each other. Great.
====

@ Ythill:

Good Defense? Slippery? Uh, I didn't realize you were attacking me. Or are you commenting to my previous answers to Incognito?

Oh, unrelated: I think your boxes make your posts harder to read.

====

@ Incognito:

-> So you're voting for Apy now. I guess that settles that point - your attack on him seem to be honest. Also, I think attacking someone who is away makes sense - if you believe they are scum, you still need to convince OTHER townies that the person needs lynching. And scum don't cease to be scum by lurking.

[quote="Incognito]Is it wrong for me to question your analysis of myself and the other players of the game?[/quote]
-> No, it is not wrong, but that is not what you're doing. You're questioning MY accusations of you. You're not mentioning my analysis of even one of the other players (and I commented on EVERY player in that post). Would you be so concerned about questioning my analysis if I wrote a one liner about you and put you in my neutral list?

Your reading of me (...) differs fairly drastically from your predecessor's reading of me (...) so I think my questions for you are pretty crucial.

-> If you say so. Well, I read the "attacks" of Cronx at you.

He attacks you once, at post 49. He comments that you trying to lead the town is a scummy tactic. Well, I think that is simpleminded and wrong. You were not trying to lead the town, and even if you were, trying to lead the town in general is not a scummy tactic in my opinion.

But then you defend yourself in 58. No, you don't. You don't comment whether he is right or wrong. You attack right back, by saying that his comment of you is a scummy tactic to distract the town from the fact that he is in the SSK wagon. But Cronx was not being questioned about his vote, so your attack is also wrong.

But not only wrong, your attack was also OMGUSy - in post 49, cronx comments on three people, but again, you only focus on his attacks on YOU. My impression is that if he didn't comment on you, then you would never have said that his was a scummy tactic.

After that, you and him exchange a few jabs, and let the matter drop.

So, questions:
A- Why is it

crucial

whether my opinions differs from Cronx or not? Despite we sharing the same role PM, we are different players, with different styles, and different ways to read other people. I never talked to Cronx either about this game. So please, tell me why this is

crucial

.

B- And where does Cronx points at you as one of the most scummy players? I couldn't find it. He attacked once at 49, then you two exchanged some jabs ("you are misrepresenting me! No, you are! No, you!"), then he replaced.

C- Do you have any comments on my reads on other players?

====

@Apyadog:

Welcome back to the game! I agree with the others that asking which subjects you should reply to, and which are already "closed" don't look good for you.

If you were asking a honest question, I feel that the best way you could return to the game is, instead of concentrating in specific episodes, to write what you think about the different players, and point out who you feel is scummy. That will give us a good "snapshot" of your position, and probably will allow you to put your thoughts about the game in order as well.
====

@Justin:

No, I don't think those details are important at all.

Regarding the "fake claims tell". Do you REALLY want to start discussing other games in this thread? Your read of those games is wrong. And biased, as you read them wanting to prove the point opposite to mine. I stand by my position that discussing fake claims before they took place is anti-town behaviour and a scum-tell.

Regarding your defense of my "timid" comment, I think you are making my point. Reading your quoting of yourself and the comments in your last post, I see the names of SSK, Apydog, Shteven, Cronx, and yet your vote during most of the game was firmly planted on Ythill. I see you as a butterfly, regarding accusations.

The "myslinch is a myslinch" point that I did is correct, even in context - I criticize you BECAUSE you think that myslinches are always bad to the town. That line is often used to paralize the town, and I have a problem with that.

And are you REALLY trying to argue that Xtomx is more verbose/less direct than you?

In short: I argue that you are not positioning yourself, and in response you try to draw me into a semantic war. You want to discuss the details of the posts with me, because you can't really argue with the one, simple, direct point that I make. Please!

Instead, how about putting your money where your mouth is, and telling us your current read on the players?

====

Mod: Vote count?

- waiting on apydog's read
- Incognito rises in my suspicion scale for scummy and exaggerated defense against small arguments.
- JP rises a lot in my suspicion scale for his last post, enough for me to

FoS: JP

[Claus]

@ The kuribo x xtomx x Ythill love triangle:

Oh, you hugged and apologized to each other. Great.

No, we didn't, Xtoxm just doesn't recognize sarcasm.

... well, it seems I failed to recognize sarcasm as well. What a shame

[Claus]

Ouch! Watch the hair! Watch the hair!

Good game, go scum!

[Claus]

Lol. Congratulations, JP.

In spite of losing the other two scum early, and a doc/cop/vig/mason town, you managed to make it. I'm impressed.

Heh, this was my first game as scum in MS, and I think I really handled it very badly. To my defense, my "The List" (I lolled so hard seeing you all make such a big deal of it through the game), was composed of honest scumhunting, with two exceptions:

1- I actually thought Ythill was scummy, but I had already written him down as the NK target.
2- I put one of the lurkers (charter?) as pro-town to fill that part of the list a little more.

I'm also a bit disappointed with Gorgon's break down when he was lynched. Truth and lies are both
essencial parts of mafia. Your lynch really could not have been helped. I hope you come back to
discuss this.

[Claus]

Guys, let's not go around assigning blame for the game result. It leads nowhere.

[Claus]

Meh. Were I town, I would have gunned for justin. I was actually serious when I said that he never actually presented his positions clearly.

Something I see people often forgetting around here is that scum can be wordy and logical just as well as town can. No matter how much sense someone makes, you need to be able to see clearly what they are basing themselves on.

As for "Discussing the setup is scummy", I would say that "discussing the setup is unhelpful" - and insisting in being unhelpful is scummy. But then again town do scummy things sometimes as well, and it is the town's job to try to find out the goals of each player.

[Claus]

And no offense to the town, but it was really surreal to keep hearing everyone say "Well justin is hard to read so let's assume he's town." I get exactly the same read on him honestly, so I'm not blaming anyone, but wow.

Justin, how are we supposed to spot you?

Hey, I got him in the end.

By elimination proccess

Changing the subject: Nanossauro, thanks for the game, but doc/cop/vig/mason is a bit unbalanced towards the town, no?

[Claus]

Come to think of it, I also probably should have never mentioned there were 3 scum

Meh. I always assume 3 scum 9 townies until proven contrary. That IS the most common Mini normal setup.

Kuribo:

I think that Ythill killed me not as much as because he thought I was scum, as because my death would reveal the most information about most players, since I had a very strong opinion of a lot of players.

If he did it for the odds, like I think he did, that was a really brilliant vigging.