Mini 539: Game over

[kuribo]

I like replacing. Give me a bit to do a short read of the eight pages and I'll jump in at full force!

[kuribo]

First off, you guys should know that I tend to be very aggressive.

Okay, here's a blow by blow analysis. (Anal Leases)

First off, the fact that a number of you are fairly new makes things a little more difficult.

Ythill in Post #5 seemed a little off to me. The random voting state is generally how things get started, and leads to discussion. Also, the worry about forestalling a mislynch seems a bit iffy to me. Scummier is the flat out point that he even SAYS he's playing the "n00b" card. That sort of thing always comes across to me like scum trying to cover up future scummy behavior. I'm willing to chalk these up to inexperience, though. And with so many of you abstaining from the random vote, that's not really a tell either.

Post 12- Xtoxm sets up the n00b play for himself, as well.

Post 13- Ythill seems to be a big fan of the meta. Just so you know, it's hard to learn anything from meta. Especially from inexperienced players, whose playstyle will adapt over time.

Post 17- MafiaSSK tosses a third vote onto Xtoxm, calling him "suspicious," and leaving it at that. WTH?

Post 22- MafiaSSK complains about the tie (Which, btw, Xtoxm was 3 votes to Mafia's 2)

Post 24- ChronX places a third vote on MafiaSSK, and says it's for pressure. I hate when people TELL you a vote is just for pressure, because when you tell them that, it doesn't pressure them at all.

Post 25- Ho1den removes his random vote and places it on Xtoxm, simply stating he didn't like xtoxm "defending" MafiaSSK. This post is suspicious to me--- it didn't seem like a "defense" at all, (just a statement on the wording). And if you think xtoxm was defending MafiaSSK, why vote him? Why not MafiaSSK? What's wrong with xtoxm defending him if you think Mafia's town?

Post 26- Good post by Justin Playfair.

Post 28- And good contribution by Incognito.

Post 30- Ythill makes some astute observations regarding MafiaSSK and sticks him at L-3. The dreaded "pressure" is back. How I loathe that.

Post 34- Xtoxm actually DOES seem to defend MafiaSSK a bit regarding the gender thing, making assumptions.

Post 36- THANK YOU INCOGNITO. That's one of my pet peeves.

Post 40- MafiaSSK becomes more suspicious, saying he just wanted to be on a bandwagon. PROTIP- Page 1 bandwagons aren't as good as they sound for the town.

Post 42- MafiaSSK admits to lying. You do know that alot of people like to "LYNCH ALL LIARS" on this site, right?

And in Post 43- Xtoxm jumps on with the L-2 vote.

Post 44- Incognito voices one of my own thoughts--- WAY too early (page 2? Seriously? for anyone to be at L-2. However, he poo-poo's the fact that MafiaSSK didn't claim a random reasoning for his vote--- he actually (vaguely) said Xtoxm was suspicious.

Post 50- MafiaSSK votehops again, bouncing onto Justin Playfair, which leads to...

Post 51- Ho1den gives the argument (in effect) that MSSK is too scummy to be scum. Then he uses MafiaSSK's lie to.... put suspicion on Incognito? What? MAJOR scumdar going off here.

Post 52- Ythill raises the possibility of a jester. Just FYI, I read somewhere on this site that 4 out of 5 times that a jester is mentioned, the mafia are the ones mentioning it.

Post 60- The bandwagon has officially stalled.

Post 63- Pointless meta from Ythill. Any player in this game could be doing anything.

Post 67- After two really protown posts from Justin (65, 66), Mafia says he needed a reasoning for the vote against Xotxm. Here's a hint--- no one ever needs a reason for the random vote stage, and to lie just to get one is majorly scummy.

Post 68- Charter makes his token "i'm not lurking" appearance to toss some nonsensical suspicion onto Apyadg. Calling someone out for not scumhunting when you've been actively lurking isn't very productive.

Post 76- Ythill goes on the offensive (or acting defensive if you will) against Justin Playfair. This post seemed very defensive to me.

Post 83- Ythill accepts a completely non-explanation from SSK and then asks his opinion of the other players. What? In post 84, Ythill claims Ho1den and Chater are definite town. But Ho1den has been scummy to me, and Chater has been lurking. So they're not definite town to ME. And he's leaning toward SSK being town. Huh? Attacks North for not posting much, but his "Definate" town guy Charter hasn't contributed much either at this point. In fact, toss out his page 1 posts (Random vote, pointless meta, "Please contribute") and he has exactly the same number of posts as North. Two. And yet, he's town but North is scum? Hmmmm...

Post 96- Charter gets the Brown Sherlock award for openly questioning someone's opinion of his alignment- No, charter, you haven't done any scumhunting. If Ythill is scum, this is a piss-poor distancing attempt.

Post 98- Ythill's post is pointless. He throws away his suspicion while saying that "Definate" means "maybe" and "maybe" means "I got my eye on you..." but he included someone in the category of "I got my eye on you." Ends with a defensive North vote while not calling charter out on the same thing. Don't like this post at all.

Post 104- Ho1den asks SSK's opinion of the other players.

Post 116- DS is lurking in plain sight. I had forgotten this guy was playing.

Post 120- Jayhawk seems very pro-town to me in this post, and smells BS with Ythill. In post 122, Ythill makes some semantic assumptions about Jayhawk being a newbie mafia.

Post 161- SSK suspects Natudo for lurking... but not charter or even worse, DS?

Post 164- Shteven bounces in and seems to wonder the same thing I am. How is SSK any LESS scummy than he was before?

Post 170- Another protown post from Playfair.

Post 186- Ythill accuses Shteven of trying to control the thread. Jealous, Mr. TLDR?

Post 208- Ah, Claus, we meet again.


Anyway, This is the part where I mention who I think is scummy. Most of you have been scummy at one time or another, and since this is Mafia, that's to be expected. However, there are those that I see as more scummy, and I feel I've posted the reasons in my lengthy analysis.

Ythill, charter, and DS are my Top Three at the moment, with Ho1den clawing his way towards them. Now, I realize that all 4 of you aren't scum, but I'd be willing to bet my right eye that two of you are.

[kuribo]

EBWOP- Actually, replace Ho1den with SSK in that top four. SSK is way scummier than Ho1den.

[kuribo]

I was not "setting up the noob play", I was responding to Ythill, and excusing myself for the inevitable meta on my newbie game.

Newbie games should be exempt from meta, since it's assumed your playstyle will change as you gain experience.

[kuribo]

XtoXm,

Ythill could be wrong and still be the vig. Him killing town would not prove him scum. Just wrong. If two bodies hit the ground tonight, and one is the person Ythill said he was going to kill, whatever their alignment, Ythill is on more solid, if not absolutely solid, ground.

This opens up all sorts of WIFOM though... If Ythill is mafia, he can still kill his selected target and claim that the doc protected him (protected Ythill, that is, to prevent the mafia from killing him), (if there is a doc or even better if there isn't). Or he could kill someone else entirely as the mafia kill and claim that the doc protected his vig kill.

So you see, there's no solid ground at all.

[kuribo]

And also, to simplify what Justin is saying---

Even if Ythill IS the vig, the vig has no special knowledge of who's mafia. He could just as easily off a townie as any of us could lynch one.

[kuribo]

I am perplexed. I have no idea what to do any more. Mass RC, anyone?

Maybe we're so thirsty for Ythill blood that we missed this.

Did the lurker just ask for a Mass RC?

What would the town possibly gain from that this early, especially when the clear play would be for everyone but Ythill to claim vanilla townie?

We don't WANT the scum to know who our power roles are.

unvote, Vote: Disciple Slayer

I still think Ythill is possibly scum, but this guy has getting a pass for way too long, and the Mass RC request was very scummy in my book.

[kuribo]

1. Since you’re telling scum who you’re targeting, if you do end up targeting town they know who they don’t have to bother killing and you’ve all but given them two night kills. Stop putting who you’re going to kill in your posts.

Alternatively, suppose the mafia kill his target. We'd never know how that person died. Would we get some stuff about a doc protection?

The One-Shot-Vig itching to claim after three votes (especially from a player who says he has a very high IQ) AND looking to shoot his wad on N1... very suspect.

If you only get one shot, why do it N1?

[kuribo]

The One-Shot-Vig itching to claim after three votes (especially from a player who says he has a very high IQ) AND looking to shoot his wad on N1... very suspect.

I've already stated that my timing had nothing to do with the votes. It had everything to do with punctuating Incog's "defense."

An honest-to-God roleclaim isn't something to be taken lightly, it's generally a last resort. Not a tool to refute an argument.

[kuribo]

I don't see how Ythill gets any personal gain form this claim. Personally I think it's very convincing. I'll be surprised if he's scum now.

On the contrary, I've pointed out several scenarios where Ythill could benefit from claiming one-shot-vig and being Mafia, nevermind the fact that he could be an SK.

[kuribo]

And because if he is mafia we will be able to know by tomorrow if his plan doesn't work, so claiming it as mafia would have been stupid

That's my whole point, Xtoxm, there's any number of things he could say tomorrow if he's mafia and he still lives.

IE, a Doc must have protected him. The only way to dispute it would be for the doc to roleclaim, which would be just as bad.

My gut tells me he's lying, but it also says Disciple Slayer is scummier and we can sort Ythill on Day 2.

[kuribo]

If DS is the way votes are going I'll be happy to swap my vote.

Don't be a sheep, use your own opinion.

It's scummy to say "I'll change my vote if the rest of you want me to."

[kuribo]

Quite a while back I said I would be happy to vote for either SSK or DS. Go look back.

And what I'm saying is that it's scummy to ask permission to put a vote somewhere. It's scummy because if they come up town, you've already created an explanation.

Just vote if you're going to vote.

[kuribo]

Okay, hold on...


Endless speculation about power roles...

Speculation about how many mafia one assumes there will be...

Stating you'll change your vote if the town goes this way?

Xtoxm is scum. GG.

[kuribo]

Also, I have a question for the field. Please everyone, answer directly. Assuming we lynch DS, who should I NK and why?

And stop fishing for direction. You're so eager to move on to night, when if you're town, you should be here on Day 1 trying to get the best lynch off.

Also, since you said you mentioned the idea of a roleblocker first, I'll include that in my thoughts, too.

[kuribo]

I think I've made it clear that I'm not eager for night. Rather, I want to gather as much information as I can before it happens. Hence my question which, by the way, serves the dual purpose of helping me decide as well as prompting everyone (including scum) to post more of their opinions for consideration in the hunt.

It has been noted that you haven't answered. And that you are directing ridiculous attacks at me though my alignment is almost certain to be revealed in the near future. What are you trying to accomplish here?

Finally, I find it highly unbelievable that any townie would have a problem with speculation about scum power-roles.

That's just it, your actions DON'T make it clear that you're not eager for night.

Of course I haven't told you who I want you to NK, nor am I going to. Fishing for a "safe" NK is just ASKING for trouble--- as I've pointed out, any number of things can go wrong, and you could simply say "well, you guys told me to."

Yes, I have a problem with speculation about scum power-roles, when we have no evidence yet that it may be the case. It seems like you're trying to set up the possibility of a role-blocker or what-have-you in order to give yourself a ready-made alibi tonight.

Or perhaps you have special knowledge of the setup?

[kuribo]

EBWOP: The second half of that post (From Yes, I have a problem with...) was directed at Xtoxm. Sorry.

[kuribo]

EBWOP2: Xtoxm in addition to Ythill, I mean. I just don't like the whole bit where on D1 some people are trying to figure out the potential roles.

It's not possible yet, and you'll drive yourselves crazy in the process, not to mention hindering the scum huntin'.

[kuribo]

Or perhaps he's just genuinly worried about that possibility?

But there are any number of equally likely roles that could be involved in the game. Wanna discuss whether or not there's a Godfather, a Serial Killer, a Mafia Doc, a Werewolf, a Cult Leader, or a Bus Driver? Maybe a Death Miller? Mafia Janitor? I didn't think so. And neither do I, because it's pointless to argue this stuff before the first night phase.

You don't have any defense for the things I've called you out on, and you're willing to jump straight into Ythill's defense.

While I genuinely believe that Ythill is a liability to the town at the moment, I don't think there's anything we can say or do that will prove his alignment one way or the other, at least not until the first night is past.

unvote, vote: Xtoxm

[kuribo]

This is especially the case since I spent the early part of the game

intentionally

dropping minor scumtells as part of my “secret infallible plan.”

Unless you've planned "I hope I get lynched and screw the town," this has to be the worst plan I've ever heard.

I don't buy that you've been intentionally dropping scumtells. That is extremely anti-town, and to admit it is either drop-dead village idiocy or scum thinking it's clever enough to state it and get away with it.

[kuribo]

Or you've posted a false dichotomy. And a lame one at that. It's pretty obvious IQ boy isn't playing the VI and what, pray tell, would be the purpose of scum admitting intentional tell-dropping in response to someone putting him on the "nice" list? You're like a kid throwing a tantrum kuribo: long on aggression, short on sense. I think someone needs a time-out.


Thing is, I feel like kuribo believes he is scumhunting. This is just more shenanigans.

Poo Poo'ing my questioning with backhanded responses is hardly constructive.

The purpose would be exactly as I said--- you've said that you're very clever, and you could point back on it to say "If I was scum, why would I..."

When clearly, I could just as easily say "But, if you're town, why would you..."

Then we go around and around in WIFOM circles.

That said, I can't think of any conceivable reason you'd want to lead the town to believe you're scum by intentionally dropping scumtells. The scum already know you're not one of them if you're town, so there's no point in trying to fool them.

I think you got caught out with some minor scumtells, you made a still-unverifiable claim, and now you're trying to explain away your behavior. As I said, a townie shouldn't be dropping scumtells intentionally to mislead the town. (Since as I said before, the scum can't be mislead)

[kuribo]

I think he wanted some suspicion on him so he could claim

But that's not a pro-town thing to do. If he's a townie, he's hurting us.

Also, why are you answering for him?

[kuribo]

_{@ Xtoxm: I never said that. You are answering for me, but you are mistaken.}

Kurbio, briefly calling pooh-pooh by its proper name is absolutely constructive at this juncture, but you’re obviously stuck on this ridiculous inquisition so I suppose I’ll have to address it more directly. Your latest post has either disproved the VI half of your false dichotomy or proved it to be rhetorical, so I’ll just address the second half.

WIFOM really is the I-am-right-and-you-are-wrong buzzword on this site, isn’t it? To be WIFOM, an argument must address one or more possible courses of action that

benefit the player accused of taking them

. There is zero benefit in me (as scum) making the “intentional scumtell” statement, for several reasons. (1) It was made in response to a player who was reading me as town, if I was trying to look innocent I wouldn’t have challenged his read at all. (2) In context the statement would only excuse past scumtells, from which I’ve already defended myself, there’s absolutely no reason for me to argue with a town read on me in order to vaguely suggest a second, weaker defense to past tells. (3) My claim already seems to have protected me from a D1 lynch, me making borderline scummy statements in order to further “prove” my innocence would be ludicrous.

Furthermore, if you must insist that I would somehow benefit from the above and therefore that the argument truly is WIFOM, remember that

you are the one who raised the question of my motives

. In this case, an (actual) WIFOM assertion only disproves

your accusation

.

I think he wanted some suspicion on him so he could claim

OMFG, LOL. What difference does it make why I did it? Nobody’s guesses can be proved or disproved. Neither can I prove the actuality of it, but I suppose I should probably register it here.

There is one very good reason for any power role to drop minor scumtells: avoiding the night kill. Note that, before the Incog case, I had been hoping to pull the trigger on my plan on D2, meaning I had to ensure that I would live through N1, meaning that I had to get a few votes from diligent scumhunters. There is another reason as well, but I’m not even going to bother getting that deep into theory here.

Repeating this

again

for Xtoxm’s benefit: the timing of my claim had

nothing

to do with the votes on me; it had

everything

to do with my argument vs. Incog. I would have made the claim at that point

even if nobody at all was voting me

. Everyone in this game seems stuck in the mindset that claims should only be made under the hammer, which is almost as ludicrous as kurbio’s attacks.

Now kurbio, I’m going to repeat this clearly, hopefully for the last time. I am comfortable with a D1 Ythill lynch. If you are, then vote me and shut the hell up about it. If you are not, then just shut the hell up about it. My death is almost a certainty either way. Your non-cases are doing nothing except distracting us from reading others.

Just because you type alot doesn't mean you're right. And branding comments as "ludicrous" as a defense doesn't invalidate them, either.

WIFOM wasn't used as a "buzzword" in my case, it was meant in the terms of "If I was scum, I'd have done this instead of this," "Well, maybe you just wanted us to THINK that if you were scum, you'd have..." etc.

When you said "If I was scum, I wouldn't have dropped minor scumtells," that leads to "Yes, but if you ARE scum, you may want us to THINK that scum would never do that."

You can't expect us to turn off our brains and follow your lead.

Claims SHOULD be a last resort, because you're wasting an entire townie otherwise. (Yourself).

If you are town, getting yourself NK'd at this point serves us NO purpose other than, "see I told you I was town." And that doesn't lead us to scum either way--- if you're a townie, just because you argued with someone doesn't make them scum. They could just as easily be town who thought you were scum.


oh, and captain mcwordy shouldn't tell people to shut up

[kuribo]

Obviously you are either too unintelligent to understand logic, or pretending the same to be true. Either way, arguing with you is pointless. I will henceforth be ignoring everything you say about me (and probably the rest of your spew), at least until day two.

If anyone wants me to address anything kurbio brings up, please restate it.

Yes, I'm sorry that I can't grasp the logic behind your "super secret pro-town plan."

We can't all work on the assumption that you have our best interests in mind. Maybe you should stop taking things so personally.

[kuribo]

Oh, and when your main defense is "How dare you question someone of my intelligence, you're stupid if you don't get what I'm doing," you're on shaky ground to begin with.

[kuribo]

I *am* concentrating on the game, it's not my fault you take it personally that I don't believe you have our best interest at heart.

That's the nature of this game.

Show me where I've "shouted insultingly."

The only person giving off egomaniacal diatrabes is you, Ythill. How dare anyone question your roleclaim, your intent, or your secret plan? That is the attitude you give off.

It's not a distraction, it's called "I think you're scum." How is pointing that out a distraction?

I openly questioned your intent and judgment, and you chose to ignore it, gloss over it, and finally question my intelligence.

If *THAT'S* not being over-defensive, I don't know what is.

The point being, if you're pro-town, you're doing a really poor job of it.

[kuribo]

There is a school of thought that those who are thought most clearly town make the most attractive candidates for a night kill. And that if one has a power role one should not appear “too town” in order to protect that power.

I don’t particularly believe in this school of thought, for reasons which, at the moment, should be quite apparent. But there is that strategy out there.

That's my way of thinking--- misleading the town is something that the town shouldn't do. Sure, you may avoid the NK by dropping scumtells, but you may not avoid the lynch.

What do you think of Xtoxm? I think I'd like a few opinions regarding the things I've pointed out, and his repeated defense of Ythill.

[kuribo]

Also, mini-fos: Kuribo. What points against Xtoxm? the best I can find is when you vote him suggesting that there could be a mafia roleblocker, vaguely in defense of Ythill. You've been pretty solidly against Ythill since joining, which I understand, but voting by association on day 1 is very risky. Ythill may stall his case with his claim, but I'd wait until he's proven scum to go hunting for his partners. On his own, Xtoxm just hasn't done much.

It's not just the association with Ythill, it's the repeated attempts to shift blame from his vote onto the town.

IE, "I'll change my vote if you guys think I should."

That's a scumtell, to me. It says that he wants our approval before he jumps on a bandwagon. Or that if the lynch comes up townie, he wants to be able to point back and say "Well, you guys wanted me to..."

[kuribo]

I'd be happy to go along with that...if you die and your mafia, then Ythill is twlling the truth, if your town, we can lynch Ythill.

I would participate in a lynch for those 2, at this point.

If DS is the way votes are going I'll be happy to swap my vote.

Tell me, Xtoxm, which part did I fakequote?

[kuribo]

Not only did you absolutely say flat-out, "I would swap my vote if that's the way things are going," and then accuse me of falsely quoting you, but you've stated several times before that you would vote or go along with the others.

[kuribo]

And I've already told you about the changing to DS thing, I already previously posted him as #2 suspect behing SSK, and said I was happy to lynch him.

I never said anything like or suggesting I wanted to vote whereever other poeple wanted me too

And I already explained that why do you ask again?

I'm sorry, when you say that "If DS is the way things are going, I'd be happy to sway my vote," I interpreted that to read, "If you guys want to get rid of DS, I'll jump on the bandwagon."

Clearly, I had interpreted that wrong.

[kuribo]

ugh sooooo many words

[kuribo]

[quote="Claus"]You are absolutely right kuribo. Let's try to keep things short:
(also, I stupidly closed the tab after hitting preview on a rather large response I started to write before this one )

====

@ The kuribo x xtomx x Ythill love triangle:

Oh, you hugged and apologized to each other. Great.
====

No, we didn't, Xtoxm just doesn't recognize sarcasm. Especially when I pointed out that the way I worded it was exactly the same thing as what he said.

[kuribo]

oops, broke the quotes again

[kuribo]

I figured the sarcasm was evident when I quoted my own statement, and your statement, and the fact that you said I fake quoted you, despite the significance that both statements mean exactly the same thing.

[kuribo]

You said that when I said:

"If you guys want to get rid of DS, I'll jump on the bandwagon."

that I was false quoting you.

But you DID say "If DS is the way things are going, I'd be happy to sway my vote,"


That's the exact same statement.

[kuribo]

Just made a realization on my way to bed. Completely unrelated to the conversation at hand but important enough to point out...

Justin suggested (and I think some others echoed) the fact that I could be a SK even if a second body hits the ground tomorrow, but wouldn't that body be chainsawed? As a vig, my target will be shot. Problem cleared up, methinks.

Not that I'll live through the night.

Depends on what the mod chooses to do with the flavor. Could be anything.

[kuribo]

What? there's a verbose war, and you claim I'm winning? Or is that losing...heh.

Ha. Eat my dust puny-word-count boy.

Just checking in, not inspired to add content at the moment.

Am I the only person that doesn't like long, rambling posts?

Seriously, it's kinda scummy to me.

[kuribo]

Ythill,

In the game I was in with Shteven there was no differentiation between the corpses left by a vig, the mafia and a serial killer. That was the first time I had been in a game with an SK. Hopefully there will be different methods here, as that would remove all doubt.

In my first newbie game, I was NK'd by being trampled to death by a passing parade of elephants. So, you see, it's all depending on what the mod wants to do, and it's pointless to speculate otherwise.

[kuribo]

Oh and P.S. I've been checking out Apy's newbie game just for the heck of it and it turns out he dipped out when he started receiving some pressure. He dipped out to the point of being replaced and by the looks of it, he was scum.

Coincidence? =]

Newbie games can't be assumed to mean anything, since a player's playstyle will (hopefully) change over time.

[kuribo]

Jesus, guys, enough with the meta.

[kuribo]

That's just it, meta doesn't always tell you anything.

[kuribo]

I could go for DS, for my reasons previously stated. (Inactivity and scumminess when he was posting)

I'd like to return to Xtoxm tomorrow though.

Confirm vote: Disciple Slayer. Mod, can we get a votecount, please? Do we have enough active players to even lynch?

Ythill, if you really are the Vig, you seriously have quite a high opinion of yourself. What makes you think that you of all people will be killed off tonight?

Assumedly, the fact that scum almost always go after claimed power roles. Unless he's scum, he's likely dead, since they won't want to risk leaving him alive.

[kuribo]

Okay, looking over Claus' Naughty / Nice list, here are some impressions I get.

He put DS on the Naughty list. While we did wind up lynching DS, Claus (unlike us) obviously knew that DS was town.

Ythill is on the nice list. Another obvious one--- why stir up trouble suspecting Ythill when you can NK him?

Xtoxm is somehow on the nice list, despite spotty play which I've been pointing out since yesterday. Hm...

Incognito is on the naughty list, and Claus stated that they had once been scum together. Firstly, it seems unlikely for lightning to strike twice. Even without that meta argument, I think leading us down that road would be stupid, even if you're bussing him.

The naughtiness against Justin is fairly vague.

I'm wondering if either of the inactives are scum.

[kuribo]

Oh, and it's fairly obvious that I was wrong about Ythill. Clearly he was the vig.

[kuribo]

This is actually incorrect. Claus stated that I was scum in one of his previous games but not that we (he and I) were scum together.

I see. My apology for the misconception. (not sarcastic this time)

[kuribo]

Or SK could be any one of the 4 inactives. I actually think there is, as Vig is a strong town role to be having in a game like this. Or the SK could have targeted Claus/Ythill.

Are you an SK?

[kuribo]

ugh, like this game isn't already having continuity problems what with people dropping out, replacing in, and going idle

[kuribo]

Eh? I think he means that someone will be replacing one of the inactives in our game while Xtoxm follows suit and replaces one of the inactives in Gorgon's game.

Ah, okay, I see.

[kuribo]

Vote: Xtoxm

I don't necessarily believe Incog's mason claim right now, since it's so early. But since we don't have anything to go on at the moment, I think this is where my vote should go.

For the reasons I've listed before, and the fact that you don't get to explain scummy behavior by chalking it up to noobishness, that is why I vote you. Add that to your recent speculation of power roles that may not exist.

Incog, a claim under no pressure sets off warning bells to me--- it's still early enough in the game for the rest of us to think you're scum and trying to set MafiaSSK up as his partner.

If Incog is scum, I'd bet dollars to donuts that MafiaSSK is not his partner. If he truly IS a Mason, then I'd bet that MafiaSSK is.

[kuribo]

Woah, uhhhhhh. You know what? Now I'm not so sure I should have claimed Mason.

Wait, you're not sure if you should have *claimed* or if you should have *claimed Mason*?

The fact that you're worried that someone could misconstrue the ROLE you claimed rather than the FACT that you claimed is suspicious to me. Along with the fact that you claimed so early under nearly no pressure.

[kuribo]

Also, despite what Ythill said (just because he was the vig doesn't mean he knew anyone's alignment), Claus' lynch doesn't clear anyone--- I've seen far more aggressive bussing than that which went on between (for example) Claus and Incognito.

To the point: Just because ChronX/Claus argued with someone doesn't make that someone a townie.

[kuribo]

How wonderfully convenient.

[kuribo]

Xtoxm, again, speculating on a closed setup isn't going to help at all. I keep telling you this, all it does is distract from the town.




Or is that what you want?

[kuribo]

But that's just it, speculating on the existence of roles that may not exist isn't helpful. Especially when we don't yet have evidence that there IS one.

Again, I ask you, are YOU a serial killer?

[kuribo]

How are you trying not to force it? You've brought it up at least twice now.

[kuribo]

That's pretty shaky ground, Xtoxm.

[kuribo]

But lack of interaction is a null-tell. You could just as easily say that X and Y are scum because they've spent alot of time accusing each other.

[kuribo]

And I really can't see town having any more powers.

"More" power roles than what? A single vig?

[kuribo]

And I really can't see town having any more powers.

"More" power roles than what? A single vig?

DS was the doctor.

I could see a third power role, but yes it's likely that those are the only 2.

ooooh yeah, i forgot about DS

So I take it I'm not the only one that doesn't believe the Mason claim?

[kuribo]

Kuribo,

You stated earlier that you believed that MafiaSSK could be a mason with Incognito, but not scum. Have you changed your mind about this?

No, I said that if Incog is telling the truth (and a mason), then Mafia would likely be his true partner. If Incog is lying and scum, then Mafia is likely not his partner.

What I said in a nutshell is that if Incog is scum instead of Mason, he probably hasn't outted his partner.

I don't believe the claim because it came with nearly no pressure and very early on Day 2. There was absolutely no strategic reason for him to not only claim, but also to out his partner. (If he has done that)

[kuribo]

Kuribo has ignored the question's I directly asked him. Make of that what you will...

I didn't ignore it. I said why I didn't believe it.

[kuribo]

I don't believe the claim because it came with nearly no pressure and very early on Day 2. There was absolutely no strategic reason for him to not only claim, but also to out his partner. (If he has done that)

Xtoxm, I answered your question while responding to Justin.

Your attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill is noted.

[kuribo]

Why don't you believe the mason claim? what makes you doubt it?

Anyway I thought I was your top suspect, how is that possible if you don't believe their claim?

Regarding your first question:

I don't believe the claim because it came with nearly no pressure and very early on Day 2. There was absolutely no strategic reason for him to not only claim, but also to out his partner. (If he has done that)

And as for your second question, I've had a bit of an epiphany about you, and if I'm right, you'd be smart to just let it go for the time being.

[kuribo]

2 are really scum.

How do you know how many scum there are, for certain?

Vote: Shteven

[kuribo]

Unvote, Vote: Shteven

if necessary

[kuribo]

Shteven, the difference between a newbie game and this game is that a newbie game is a semi-open setup, whereas this is a closed setup. In semi-open, we're told flat-out from the get-go that there are two scum.

Xtoxm, you shouldn't take anything about the setup for granted. Also, I already said why I don't necessarily believe the claim. I don't particularly advocate their lynch--- because I still find the possibility that it's a legitimate claim. However, I very rarely believe claims at first, especially if they're early.

JP, A handful of other things about Shteven. He was on Claus' "Nice" list, which while trivial, bears noting. His predecessor, Jayhawk, got very defensive and even quit while under pressure. Shteven was one of the early driving forces behind the DS-lurker lynch. Shteven tried to gloss over Day 1 interactions by saying:

How about, instead, you tell us what you think of day 2 events?

Then, as Xtoxm (who I've disagreed vehemently on many occasions with) pointed out, Shteven and Claus didn't seem to interact with one another--- and for that matter, I've noticed that when they did, it was a bit "in passing:"

@Stephen
About Justin:
It is not the length of his posts. It is the fact that I can't really feel that he is attacking anyone (other than his earlier Ythill attacks). Reading him in this game (don't wanna read your link now), I feel I'm listening to a politician about non-popular matters.

That right there seems like he's saying, "I should respond, but I don't want to draw a possible link between us."

Then, there's the post following Claus' NK:

As for looking over the list, it's a good idea, but I'd go about it a slightly different way. Scum usually hinge their bets on such lists; so it's likely the the other scum are spread out on the list. Focusing on just the nice or just the naughty won't help much.

Gee, I wonder why we should disregard his Naughty/Nice designations? Could it be because he made a mistake in listing his scum partner as nice? Maybe, maybe not.

[kuribo]

And finally, just because you seem so intent to give me hell about it, you said "his scum partner," singular. So, there's a two mafia team, and Kuribo is the second mafia? Don't you mean partners?

Why, when did he out another one? I said singular because if you're scum, then he hasn't outted partner

S

, just a partner.

[kuribo]

Look at what Kuribo said precisely:

He's not singling me out by name, Xtoxm. He never said "Shteven is his scum partner" which would be singular, but rather "Claus listed his scum partner" which means that Claus only has one scum partner in the game. It is exactly the "mistake" he's after me for. He should have said "Claus listed one of his scum partners". Normally I wouldn't care at all about such a mistake; it's utterly trivial. But he's being a hypocrite because he's trying to hang me over the same thing.

The point of all this is that chopping the list in half (or 1/3) is just blinding you to half of the players. It's no solid basis for a case. You can mention it sure, but the case shouldn't depend on it in the least. It's entirely WIFOM.
Please explain how my mere existence on the nice list "outs" me. And how then he has not also "outted" Ythill, Xtoxm, and Charter(Gorgon).

It's not just the "Nice list," it's several other things I pointed out in response to JP, which you've chosen to ignore. Rather, you're focusing on one part of my argument and making it seem as if the only reason I'm voting you is because you were on Claus' nice list.

Of course it wouldn't make sense to list all of his scum partners on the nice list, but I'd bet my left testicle that there's a scum in that list. Listing Ythill as anything but "Nice," after an uncountered vig-claim would have drawn too much attention to himself--- especially when he knew they'd get him that night, anyway.

What about the rest of the list? What about the third scum? Is the third scum on the nice list? Do you want to dispute their being three scum?

Ythill's already dead, and was pro-town. The nice list doesn't have many other choices. It only leaves Charter(Gorgon) and Xtoxm. How do you feel about Charter(Gorgon)/Xtoxm, Kuribo? Do you really feel that it would make any sense for scum to place his team entirely in one category rather than spread them out?

How do you know there are 3 scum? How do you know whether or not he put the entire scum team in one category? I never said that he did, nor did I even imply it--- I said that I found some of your actions scummy, and I found you on the Nice List.

You make it seem as if I went over the list, saw your name listed under "Nice," and said--- AHA! He's scum, but rather quite the opposite---

I saw some suspicious behavior on your part, (started by your comment about the number of scum in the game) then saw your name on the nice list, and that got the wheels a-turnin'.

As for the fact that I've "ignored" charter and Xtoxm, charter hasn't been very active, now has he? And if you think I've ignored Xtoxm, then maybe we have an entirely different opinion of what "ignored" means.

[kuribo]

especially when he knew they'd get him that night, anyway.

This implies he knew Disciple Slayer was doc, somehow.

Read the whole quote, I was referring to the mafia getting Ythill. As in:

Claus would have known there was no point in bucking Ythill's vig claim (thus drawing attention to himself) because the mafia could just kill him that night.

[kuribo]

Which is untrue if there is doc around. As long as we have a doc a directed nightkill of mafia this way should have been blocked. I just noted you missed this in your consideration but probably mafia would be aware of that.

But, again, what good would it have done for Claus to go against the town and try to discredit Ythill's claim? That's why Ythill (town) was on the Nice list.

[kuribo]

Also, I've got a proposal. It seems like half of us are ready to swear by Claus' list, and the other half think it's useless. I'd like to see people start making cases based on what he said, rather than what group their target was in.

You continue to gloss over my reasoning by saying that I'm "swearing by" the list. I don't think it should be disregarded, but it's definitely a useful tool when combined with other things that have been said and done.

You make it seem as if I looked at the list and worked backwards from there. That wasn't the case.

[kuribo]

Now about it being “odd” that Ythill ended up targeting Claus. It’s never seemed odd to me, but I didn’t post about it before because it seems pretty evident from his last post.

Not only that, but I actually had assumed that to an extent, he intentionally hid his intended target from us. Even after asking several times who he should attack, he targetted someone whose name hadn't been brought up much. I find it hard to believe that he put no thought into it whatsoever, and only assume that he wanted the mafia to believe that he was going after Incog or someone else.

I agree with you about the power-role speculation, as I've stated myself several (dozen?) times. It's pointless, it does not help us, and it distracts us from the business at hand--- finding and lynching scum. I'm starting to think that the speculation may be intentionally fed on the part of the scum, and that perhaps town players are unwittingly keeping it going.

[kuribo]

My suspects at the moment would then be just Xtoxm and Kuribo. More on them another day.

So is it just coincidence that you thought I was town until I turned my attention to you? Or is voting for you a scumtell in your mind?

[kuribo]

I always find it strange that dead people are allowed to post (even once), and I don't want to use it in my considerations, more over since english is not my mothertongue, I don't see why

Woot!

would imply that the dead of scum Claus was caused by Ythill.

Then who do you propose killed Claus? Because I find it next to impossible that the scum would kill one of their own.

[kuribo]

Still willing to bet that right eye, kuribo?

If people collected from every body part I've ever bet, I'd be in sad shape. I also bet my left testicle that the Patriots would win the Super Bowl, and my left kidney that the Ravens would make the Playoffs.

[kuribo]

ChronX never mentioned kuribo, Northjayhawk/Shteven, Apy, and JP at all.

For the record, by the time I replaced in, ChronX had all but disappeared.

[kuribo]

Why would the SK assume that the Mafia is going to kill anyone other than the claimed vig? Why would he waste a kill going after a claimed vig, knowing that the doctor had died and couldn't protect him?

I'm sorry, but at this point, the evidence doesn't support the existence of a serial killer.

[kuribo]

Jester, two things:

One, I feel that given Ythill's attitude in the early part of the game, (basically taking the welfare of the town onto his shoulders alone) he likely had Claus in his mind as a target, and chose not to disclose that. Perhaps even intentionally misleading us as he had done by purposely dropping scumtells. Maybe he feared the existence of a Mafia doctor.

And two, regardless of his reasoning, we still got extremely lucky. It was a very risky move on Ythill's part, and if it hadn't paid off, we'd be cursing him right now.

[kuribo]

If the town gets desperate and can find no better targets, it might be instructive to lynch MafiaSSK. He's completely useless as a scum-hunter, and lynching him would either definitely prove or definitely disprove Incognito's innocence. If Incognito is innocent, the mafia would

have

to respond by killing him the next night, but if we kept that day going for a while, we could potentially learn some really interesting things, plus all of Incognito's (long) posts would be confirmed as truth as he sees it. Right now, MafiaSSK might be worth more to the town dead than alive.

This is a terrible play: If Incog is telling the truth, then both he and Mafia are town. If we lynch MafiaSSK, then the scum can kill Incog tonight, and we've lost two confirmed townies. On the other hand, if we keep hunting scum, then at best, they can only kill ONE confirmed townie.

Simply put, the scum can't afford to let both stay alive, and the town will be at a huge disadvantage if we kill one and let them kill the other.

Sure, we could get confirmation today, but we'd basically be killing one of them, and then allowing the scum to murder the other. Why give them what amounts to a free kill?

I really hope you haven't thought this through as opposed to intentionally trying to misdirect us.

[kuribo]

Correct, they aren't scum tells! (sorry, too easy)

Scum tells are subjective, just because you don't see something as one, doesn't mean that someone else won't.

I believed Ythill by the end of the day.

As I've said before, it was clearly in a scum's best interest to believe Ythill so as not to draw attention to themselves.

[kuribo]

Anyway, I'm not sure this has much bearing on the current game. I find your answers to Jesters' and kuribo's case to be pretty credible. I don't find the case to be strong, and can elaborate on this in detail if anyone wants me to.

Of course I want you to elaborate, don't be lazy, tell us what you really think.

[kuribo]

Correct, they aren't scum tells! (sorry, too easy)

Scum tells are subjective, just because you don't see something as one, doesn't mean that someone else won't.

Interesting how you didn't completely quote the discussion. You know, the part where Jester himself said he didn't consider them scumtells. You are of course free to disagree with me, and to disagree with him, but don't try to make it sound like I he said "These are scumtells" and I went "oh no they aren't!" Also, I'd think that the (sorry, too easy) part would show that it was mostly a joke.

I've been trying to believe you for a while Kuribo, but things like this keep piling up. Suspicion of me isn't a scum tell in itself, but trying to turn everything I've ever said into a scum tell bothers me. I'd recommend being more willing to give players a second chance.

And while it may be somewhat ironic after my previous sentence, I think I've waited long enough, and that it's time I go 'on the record'.

Vote: Kuribo

Blatant OMGUS. You've said yourself (recently) that despite my suspicion of you, you believe me to be town. So now you claim that you've "waited long enough?" But if you feel I'm town, as you've said, why were you waiting for a chance to vote me?

I'm not "trying to turn everything" you've ever said into a "scumtell." I don't believe in scumtells, more to the fact, you've said and done some scummy things and not explained them to my satisfaction.

[kuribo]

Kuribo: Kuribo just seems to be side-stepping the attacks that are given to him. However he does try to attack whomever he can. This makes me think that he might be the actual SK around here.

Unless YOU'RE a serial killer, please provide evidence that there is one.

[kuribo]

It's true that I've been wavering on kuribo somewhat; and I'm not certain he's scum. But day 2 has lasted exactly 1 month now, and I wanted to vote for someone. Perhaps kuribo suffers from just being on my mind the most lately, but so far he's my leading suspect.

You're not certain I'm scum, but the day has lasted too long for your taste, so you want to vote anyone? Just anyone?

[kuribo]

The last mod votecount had 3 people voting, one of them being yourself, and then you get all shocked that I'd vote, and am just trying to bring the day to an end? You're at 1 vote. Relax. There are 3 other players who share that distinction with you.

I wasn't shocked, I thought it was scummy that you're hustling for the day to end and that you never found me suspicious until I was looking into your actions.

Don't try to make it look like I'm jumpy, because I'm not.

[kuribo]

@kuribo, could you clearify why you treath the two statements allow so different (zie comments regarding 7-10)?
"Never claim unless as last resort"
"A not counterclaimed power role should not be lynched"

Maybe it's your english, but I don't understand what you're asking me.

[kuribo]

Disciple Slayer plays so bad in every game I saw from him. He schould have been replaced rather than lynched. It is a pity that we lost a powerrole due to his erratic play. I think the turn out that we start day 2 with 1 scum and 2 townpowers down, means that provided the setup was balanced we are still balanced, with a slight advantage for scum, but that is merely speculation.

With you having said that, it's hardly fair to place the blame for the DS bandwagon on me, now is it? We had no way of knowing he was a doc, and further, at the time he was the scummiest suspect. He had been actively lurking, he asked for a Mass Roleclaim on day 1, and was very shady.

In post 10 he even clearly states that he would lynch the claimed vig untested.

Please quote that, I can't seem to find it.

[kuribo]

I rephrase my question:
Why on earth are you critizing newbies for not following one convention on this site (not claiming unless as 'last resort') while blatantly denying another convention (not attacking a claimed not counterclaimed power role)?

"Sort him on Day 2" implies that come day 2, the truth or falsehood of his alignment would be known and we could sort it out.

I am free to follow whichever conventions I please--- Just because someone claims to be something and no one else has counterclaimed does not mean I have to believe it just because that's the "way things are done."

[kuribo]

Overly complicated for a mini normal, in my view, but still... interesting. And in my experience, a doc protect works against only one kill, not two.

Plus the doc died before Ythill and it's highly unlikely that we have another one.

[kuribo]

Newbie games are worthless as meta.

[kuribo]

It's awful short-sighted of you, since when (not if) I turn up town, people are going to see how you blew things out of proportion against me.

I suggest the rest of the town look very carefully at the fact that the suspicion against me came only after I openly attacked Shteven.

[kuribo]

Why did you try to distracked town all the time by asking Xtoxm over and over again for evidence for an SK while he never said there was certainly one (while you yourself think there is certainly no SK without a single trace of even an attempt to proof it)?
Given your continued bringing up this discussion, do you really believe it is scummy to bring up this discussion over and over again? I mean, come on, if you are consequent you should be selfvoting, isn't it?

How was I the one trying to distract the town? I was *discouraging* the sidetracking by showing how pointless the "well, maybe we have..." discussion is.

No, I don't believe it's scummy that I point out the stupidity of discussing a serial killer--- when at this point in time, we have no evidence that there is one. Yes, I keep bringing it up because people keep trying to get sidetracked by discussing it. It's called scumhunting, and the best way to do that is not to discuss roles that may not exist.

I don't even understand the bit about the self-voting.

[kuribo]

Votes Shteven for no good reason.

This is a misrepresentation in and of itself. I've given plenty of reason, many of which were valid in the minds of other players.

Why are you so defensive towards Shteven? Why are you trying your dangedest to get the spotlight onto me and off of him?

[kuribo]

Hrm. You know, it bothers me a little that you immediately got defensive about the DS lynch, when this part of Hjallti's post doesn't seem to be addressed to you. Care to explain why you jumped on

that

part of his post? As opposed to the two-post PBPA?

In the first part of the PBPA, post 656, bullet point @6, it's all but implied that I was the "driving force" behind DS' lynch. Or, as Hjallti put it, the bandwagon to "lynch our doc." I chose that subject because as seen in 687, I already figured Shteven would make an issue of it.

----

As for the SK speculation, unless a player is THEMSELVES a Serial Killer, we don't know that there is one.

One kill last night, doc is already dead.

There is absolutely nothing in that scenario that yet suggests the existence of a serial killer, yet it drives me absolutely batty that people continue to speculate on its existence.

And that's exactly my point. Do we want to discuss the possibility that a Cult is at work, here, too? Maybe there's a Jester out there (the role, not the player ), or perhaps a Survivor? Could there be a Godfather, some Insane Cops, Quack Doctors, or Death Millers?

Of course there could, but that doesn't mean that we have any reason to believe that there *is.* And until we see some sort of evidence that a role exists--- even circumstantial evidence--- it does nothing more than distract the town from the business at hand: Finding and killing scum. Simply saying "I think JP is the Serial Killer if we have one" when we don't necessarily even have one? Now THAT is reaching a bit, don't you think? That'd be like me saying, "I think Shteven is the Cult Leader, if we have one," or, "I think Hjallti is a Jester, if we have one." You're speculating about roles with no basis in fact, which is distracting.

[kuribo]

Do you still mostly agree with who he thought was town, and who he thought was scum, as you did in your 317?

Ythill - Nice - agreed. Also dead. Believed his claim when he was alive, though.

Kuribo - Unlisted - disagree. I feel this one's been covered, see my last case summary post.

Holden, now Hjallti - Unlisted - agree. Still want to give him a bit more time. His initial thoughts are pretty consistent with mine, though, so he'll probably move up.

Apyadg, now Jester - Naughty - Disagree. Claus was too determined to get apyadg, seems like the next town role he was trying to lynch.

It might be time for me to suspect Apyadg(Jester)/Justin more.

Re: Ythill, if you're scum, you wouldn't have been openly challenging the claim, it would have caused too much attention onto yourself.

Re: Hjallti, if Jester is my "scum partner" for agreeing with me, then clearly Hjallti is yours. I, personally don't think so, because I think that it'll turn out to be someone that you've had little to no interaction or agreement with. I believe that you are scum, and your scum partner is silently letting you dig your hole deeper and deeper to lessen the chance of you exposing him, as well.

Re: Apyadg, Wait, so if you think that he was "the next town role that Claus was trying to lynch," why do you then say that you should suspect him more?

[kuribo]

Kuribo, how do you justify going from calling the lack of interaction between Shteven and Claus a non-tell to using it as one of your reasons for suspecting him?

What was the epiphany that led you to no longer suspect Xtoxm?

What about Shteven’s initial statement about Claus’ list which you quote above seemed scummy, if, as you later said, you didn’t believe that Claus would have placed his scum all in one section?

1) It wasn't so much the fact that they didn't interact with one another, more along the lines that as I said, it was "in passing," ie--- it seemed that they had something to discuss but couldn't discuss openly. I realize I could be wrong, but it's not the meat and potatoes of my case, it's just another angle that I've used to look at things.

2) I'm not getting into the Xtoxm thing yet. I have my own ideas and reasons for thinking what I think, and I want to leave it at that for now. If anything proves my theory wrong, I'll come back to Xtoxm tomorrow.

3) Frankly, it's not impossible that Claus would place all of his scum partners in one section. Highly unlikely, yes, but not impossible. I assume you're talking about the fact that he had listed Xtoxm and Shteven as "Nice." As stated above, I no longer necessarily believe Xtoxm to be scum.

[kuribo]

I think I've exhausted just about everything I can say about kuribo - which is probably a good thing. We've already been a bit too verbose. Part of me knows I should probably be rereading other players, and another part of me wants other people do to it for me! /cough

Why? Too much attention drawn to you and now you can't be bothered to scumhunt?

[kuribo]

I know I said that I've had an epiphany about Xtoxm, but the last 3 posts throw my theory into deep doubt.

If you're actively monitoring the thread, why aren't you around? Do I have to keep pressure on you to keep you around?

And if you're not reading the posts, why are you voting?

[kuribo]

He seems like the questionable Serial Killer.

You people are going to make my head explode.

[kuribo]

I think that before Shteven's lynch, it would be good if our claimed masons said whatever they have to say, since one of them may not be with us for Day 3.

[kuribo]

Considering today is Thursday, we have about 25 hours to go.

[kuribo]

Unless you're from the future which makes you very suspicious to me.

[kuribo]

6. kuribo Natude
still attacks anyone who dares to disagree on his so envisioned nonSKtheory. Finds lineup considerations not a part of game but keeps on commenting on them (hypocrite??) and even votes shteven for assuming 3 scum.

Yes, that's exactly why I'm voting Shteven.

in case you missed the heavy sarcasm there.


Alternatively, you're glossing over everything else and trying to minimize any argument I have.

FOS: Hjallti

[kuribo]

So, here's what we have:

1) The two claimed masons live through the night. I don't quite understand it, but I'm not yet willing to take it as evidence that they are lying.

2) Why Jester? Why would the Mafia NK Jester? He certainly had suspicion against him.

3) Xtoxm, do you have a reason for voting Gorgon, or is it a "hunch?"

[kuribo]

For one to believe me to be scum, they'd have to believe that I'd be willing to hedge the scum's entire victory on myself--- not only did I aggressively go after Shteven, I started the wagon that led to his lynch.

[kuribo]

Vote: Xtoxm

You guys wanted to know about the epiphany I had about Xtoxm---

The endless speculation about how the town had too much power.

The fact that he didn't suspect me at all, despite the fact that I went after him pretty hard.

The epiphany was that I thought Xtoxm was a cop who had an innocent investigation on me. And since he hasn't counter-claimed, I no longer think that's what he is.

[kuribo]

Also, I am a vanilla townie.

[kuribo]

The way I see it is:

We lynch Xtoxm. If he's scum, (and he's been scummy) that works out well. If he's not, we move on to night and by morning we should be able to sort Gorgon out one way or another.

See, as I said, Xtoxm has been very scummy throughout the game, but his scummiest movement has come today--- Why lynch an un-counterclaimed cop?

[kuribo]

I was wondering if a nolynch-vote would not postpone LYLO one day more and leave us with a test more. Then again Gorgon could be nightkilled, and we gain nothing. Probably we should consider this at some point but today might be to early.

No lynch would cost us one of our confirmed townies (either Gorgon, "the cop," or our two masons) and gain us nothing in the way of information, thus resulting in a net loss. That makes this a scummy statement in my eyes.

While I don't think that Hjallti as scum would defend Shteven so vigorously (he seems experienced enough to know that it would backfire), I also don't think we can discount the idea that he would know we'd take it that way. Of course, THAT is the true definition of WIFOM, and would not help us either way, so let's come back to that.

Justin Playfair is by no means a confirmed townie in my book--- I don't like the fact that some of the players think he can't be scum because he's so townie. I also don't want to see him lynched because people think he looks "too townie." I hate "Too Townie" as an argument, since both town and scum will try to look town.

I think we should all go back and look at past events. That's how I got onto Shteven. After he slipped up about the two remaining scum, I went back and tried to see if anything stuck out. We should see what sticks out about Justin, Xtoxm, and Hjallti. Gorgon should be allowed to live at least one more night, but we should BY NO MEANS allow a No-Lynch.

[kuribo]

Just because you made a bad play in that game by self-lynching while a cop doesn't mean that Gorgon should.

Further down the line, in that thread, Xtoxm is told that town should never vote themselves.

Hmmm....

[kuribo]

Ok. With amount of doubt on your claim, and i'm not the only one, there's no way you're being nightkilled.

Directing the NK?

[kuribo]

I think we should continue scumhunting and not rely on Gorgon's tomorrow result. There's no way an even half-competent scum would allow Gorgon to live.

Then again, they didn't NK either of our masons last night, so i dunno.

[kuribo]

I dunno. I'd probably go with kuribo at that point and if JP ends up being scum then bravo, Justin. You deserved the fucking win anyway with that awesome busing work while not even ever getting a chance to speak with Claus as he replaced and being on his Naughty list and all.

No, I absolutely hate the idea that if scum plays well then they should be handed the win.

Sorry, but I think the fact that I started the bandwagon on Shteven, and kept it going at great personal risk to myself--- that should kinda speak about my alignment. At the time I pointed out his slip and started my case against him, no one else was suspicious of him--- even me--- I was after Xtoxm at the time.

There would have been no good reason for me to bus Shteven and sacrifice a scumpartner who had been coasting along just fine until then.

[kuribo]

Gorgon is right--- I haven't liked alot of Hjallti's play throughout the game, he fought tooth and nail in Shteven's defense, and now when he posts his "plan" for the town to follow, he conveniently has us assume the scum will forget to NK our claimed cop and brings himself to the endgame.

Not liking it one bit.

Unvote, Vote: Hjallti

[kuribo]

No, I absolutely hate the idea that if scum plays well then they should be handed the win.

And by this I mean that I'm going to do my best to make damn sure that no matter which one of you is scum, and no matter how hard you play, the town gets a W.

[kuribo]

But please explain to me what you think is a scumtell, because with your vote at this point has been totally unsubstantiated.

No, it hasn't, I explained why I was voting you.

[kuribo]

You know, I've had a thought.

Why has Gorgon only investigated (conveniently) players that we know to be dead (and thus know their alignment?)

Why wouldn't he have investigated one of our claimed Masons? Or one of the other "Middle of the Road" types?

[kuribo]

And I'm not saying we should lynch Gorgon, just that we need to keep an open mind for tomorrow, and that we shouldn't count on him being alive to give us his results.

Seriously, you guys keep betting on the fact that the scum will let a claimed cop live through the night.

[kuribo]

*sigh* I feel like there's almost no point in going over kuribo and Xtoxm. I feel like both of them are town. Is it not obvious to everyone else that Gorgon is lying about the cop claim? =(

It is pretty obvious to me, as I've stated--- it's too convenient that he has only investigated the dead, and as a result won't confirm any living players for us.

Sorry, but if I had been the cop, I'd have investigated Hjallti for his defense of Shteven, or SSK or Incog to help verify their Mason claim.

The problem comes with lynching a claimed cop--- if he's lying, we probably win the game. But if he's telling the truth, then the scum gets two kills: 1) our claimed cop that we lynched, 2) whoever they decide to kill off.

[kuribo]

Looking over Incog's summary in 870, the fact that he pooh-pooh'd Sheven's slip about the number of scum as a weak tell... that kind of stands out to me. As it turned out, it was a very strong tell.

Even more telling--- he says that Shteven is scummy, Xtoxm is town--- AND THEN VOTES XTOXM. Why did you vote someone you believe to be town?

Mentions that Jester looks town to him--- and then Jester turns up dead that night.

So, let's see...

He's thought Apaydg was scum (he wasn't)
He's thought Xtoxm was scum (probably isn't)
Now he thinks it's Hjallti. I don't think so anymore. His argument includes the Appeal to Emotion that it "may just win us the game."

[kuribo]

Gorgon, as I said before, I don't advocate your lynch.

Don't curse at us, no one is cursing at you.

Just because I don't believe you, don't take it so personally.

You guys can lynch me if you like, as long as you promise that tomorrow you'll lynch Gorgon if he's "miraculously" not NK'd.

Although I must admit that Gorgon's attack on me is weak (Opportunism? Of course, I want the scum to swing) and reeks of reaching.

I still think Gorgon is scum, but I think we need a scapegoat. We need to lynch someone today and see how things go.

Personally, I nominate Justin Playfair since we've all had a hard time getting a read on him.

[kuribo]

Hello? The scum aren't getting any deader.

[kuribo]

Personally, I nominate Justin Playfair since we've all had a hard time getting a read on him.

Unvote, Vote: Justin Playfair

[kuribo]

That's the problem, Hjallti sided with Shteven to the point that it would have been nearly stupid for him to do so as mafia.

Of course, we could go into WIFOM territory and say that it's a perfectly safe move because we'd be expected to think that.

Screw it.

Unvote

While I think about this.

[kuribo]

Well. I think it's Gorgon, but that's besides the point.

I do too, but there's no point in lynching him today. In terms of Gorgon, we need to see what tomorrow brings.

[kuribo]

Well. I think it's Gorgon, but that's besides the point.

I do too, but there's no point in lynching him today. In terms of Gorgon, we need to see what tomorrow brings.

Yeah I know, but it means we're lynching someone else that no-one particularly suspects.

Hjallti's play has been scummy, though, and the argument against lynching him is the WIFOM statement that "If he were scum, he wouldn't be stupid enough to X."

[kuribo]

How cute, our claimed cop lives through the night.

Explain, Gorgon, or die.

[kuribo]

Also, since Inco was clearly telling the truth about his role, that clears MafiaSSK, who is a confirmed townie. He's also the only one of you 4 remaining that I feel I can trust 100%.

MafiaSSK, I'd like it if you became more involved in the conversations.

[kuribo]

[kuribo]

don't bother with the replace.

Vote: Gorgon

Happy trails, Hans.

[kuribo]

Yeah, well, I don't see why Gorgon would lie about his result.

[kuribo]

Kuribo, why you no hammer JP?

Because I'm leaning toward him being town. My gut has been telling me you're scum, and now you're all too eager to drop the bomb.

[kuribo]

Way to put the game in my hands


As I've stated before, two thoughts are in my head:

1) I have long thought Xtoxm to be scum. For awhile, I thought maybe he was a cop with a guilty verdict on someone. I now know this to be false. However, as scum, he WOULD know who the scum are.

2) I've also long thought Justin Playfair to be town. When I advocated his lynch, it was in order to try and get a better read on him, and learn a little more about Gorgon.

Was I hasty in disbelieving Gorgon? Absolutely.

However, I now see the fact that he wasn't NK'd as what it was--- an attempt by scum to be clever and get the town to do his dirty work.

Xtoxm, the "appeal to emotion" bit doesn't phase me one bit. In fact, it looks scummy, just like a few other things you've done.

I don't think I'm going to be able to glean any more information than I already have from this game.

It's less than a toss-up--- I strongly believe I am making the right decision. If Justin is mafia, he's played far better than his scum buddies. I don't like the term "scum deserves a win," because I am always playing to win as town--- even when playing against brilliant scum.

So, in the final attempt to secure a town win,

Vote: Xtoxm

and may God have mercy on my soul.

[kuribo]

Evidently not - When the last power claims there is not enough credibilty for them to be believed.

Had Gorgon been a vanilla I believe we'd have lynched him that day he claimed and gone on to get JP.

This is true.

Justin played really well throughout. In the end, it was my own assumptions about my previously formed opinion regarding Xtoxm that cost us the game--- I had long found him scummy (and indeed some of his actions seemed that way) and once Gorgon got the innocent result back on JP, it seemed like a no-brainer.

[kuribo]

Something I see people often forgetting around here is that scum can be wordy and logical just as well as town can. No matter how much sense someone makes, you need to be able to see clearly what they are basing themselves on.

It wasn't necessarily that I found JP so pro-town that I thought he was absolutely not scum, it was that I found Xtoxm to be so scummy that I figured I was making the right choice.

Imagine how things would have went if I had managed to convince the rest of us to lynch JP instead of Hjallti, when I said, "I think we should lynch JP because he's hard to read."

[kuribo]

That's the problem with breadcrumbs--- people don't always pick up on them.

[kuribo]

That crumb is so vague I think it's an accident.

Kuribo - Had I a bit more time to convince you i'd have pointed out if I were scum you'd have been NKed. SSK had stated clear trust for me, you continuos doubt.

Nah, I would have just argued that you did it to throw me off.

[kuribo]

Ythill, how did you figure out that Claus was scum?

[kuribo]

Wow, a lot of commentary.

Shteven, thanks, but I really think it’s hard to find scum tells on me because I can’t quite figure out how to think as scum. Incognito quizzed me earlier about something I had done and I realized I wasn’t trying to be tricky when I handled it. I legitimately thought the things people were bringing up about Incognito were bs, so when I tried to blunt them I was acting as town. Likewise, when I was giving Ythill advice about how to play vig. It seemed really obvious to me that he should do certain things. Those things didn’t benefit scum, but they just seemed so obvious I had to say them. Same thing really with getting Hjallti lynched. A no-lynch was a bad idea for town. Favoring it was a scum tell. You just have to forget you’re scum for a little while.

In bizarro reverse land, Kuribo going after you was the one sequence I felt like I didn’t play basically the same way I would have if I was town. I would have gone after Kuribo much harder for his suspicions, because I didn’t think they were all that sound. But since I knew you were scum and I knew they were sound, I didn’t do it. That was the one sequence I was afraid of being called out on, which was why I covered it with the cop thing about Kuribo, which also, fortuitously enough, was true.

As for the kills:

After Shteven died my first goal was to make sure no scum hunting block developed. I could see the possibility of that with Kuribo and Jester. I killed Jester because I didn’t have a feel for Jester but felt sure Kuribo was a good player. Incognito had been my first choice, but he was too openly in my favor, and then claimed mason to boot, so I couldn’t take him. Ythill had already done me an incredible favor, not just by setting out conditions for me being scum that temporarily made it hard for anyone to come after me, but also suggesting me as a good candidate for investigation.

So on the morning after Shteven died I had a cop read on Kuribo, the two masons to whack the next two days, and Hjallti and Gorgon to get lynched before the finale with Xtoxm. Shteven had already suggested Xtoxm as the best candidate to try to keep around for a possible endgame, so I can’t claim credit for that.

Then Gorgon claims cop and I was absolutely certain I was dead. There was no percentage at all in Gorgon claiming cop at that point unless there was four scum in town, and who was really going to believe that? He was guaranteeing a loss by scum if he was scum, and then Incognito showed the game Nano had been in to boot. I was completely out of ideas. I defended Gorgon’s claim to some extent, because I felt I had to. But now I figured I was in a positionof having to push consecutive lynches on some combination of Hjallti and Xtoxm just to get to endgame. And once people started scum hunting that was going to be tough, especially with me pushing two bad lynches in a row. It would have been a complete circus trick for me to try to go after Kuribo at that point, way too obvious, and besides I needed him anyway.

Except the scum hunting never happened. In spite of the probabilities town got so sure that Gorgon was scum that even though I was able to convince them not to lynch him that first day they chose not to use that day for scum hunting at all. They ended up nearly random lynching, so I only had to poke Hjallti ever so gently to get the noose around his neck. And then (even though I had written up an eloquent defense of Gorgon, arguing that he shouldn’t be rushed to the rope—in case I needed to point to it the next day), Gorgon was lynched before I posted at all, and we were in lylo. And I got to get there clean, while Xtoxm was just filthy.

Worst moment was killing Incognito when I did. I would have much rather killed Mafia first, but Incognito would have picked up on it, Kuribo would have picked up on it, and I would have hung.

So did you get scared when some of us were advocating you instead of Hjallti as the "random" lynch?

[kuribo]

And I might add that if Gorgon hadn't come back with an innocent result on you, I would have been less likely to think Xtoxm was the final scum.

Xtoxm, I explained during the course of the game why I thought you were scummy.