Mini 518: Underground Mafia, The Nightmare is Over!

[Jitsu]

The only explanation I can think of is the miller thing. CKD's investigations have been pretty confirmable, and Sudo's the only one we don't have an investigation on, so he must be the last scum.

Vote: Sudo

This sounds to me like a scum backed into a corner. I just hope you're the last one.

[Jitsu]

Mod: please prod Sudo and AA

Wow, I didn't realize that it's been that long since they posted.

[Jitsu]

Oh, I kind of forgot amidst everything else, but Jerub, why don't you claim since you're at L-1?

Will it be vanilla townie with some secret miller sauce on the side?

[Jitsu]

Great game everyone. I think the mafia did pretty well for most of the game and made things interesting up until the end. I really enjoyed this game and had a lot of fun playing with all of you. Thanks to NabNab and everyone playing for making my first ever game of mafia a memorable one.

I'll give a final recap of the game from my perspective later tonight (AFTER the mod has confirmed the game is over)

So none of the mafia had any special roles?

In case people haven't figured it out yet, I was a lowly Vanilla Townie with no powers.

[Jitsu]

Sorry for the length of this post and making Korlash's eyes bleed again, but I have a lot to say on my recap (a lot of it is good stuff to say about you guys.

I was targeted by EVERYONE on N2? I had no idea that my cell was so crowded that night. Gunslinger must have REALLY loaded me up with anesthesic, as I was seeing and feeling nothing.

I have to say that I have great respect for Setael. I saw her replace into Mafia vs. Wolves Redux (I loved that game) and escape several lynches even though her predecessor was on the express trip to the gallows. Then I saw her get out of several more in this game. If Setael like was the old man at the end of Scooby Doo, then I felt a little like Scrappy Doo -- or like one of those little dogs that chomps down on the mailman's ass and just won't let go. Sorry, Setael. No hard feelings, right?

I came out of the gate on Day 1 intending to be active and scumhunt as much as possible and not draw a lot of suspicion. I figured I probably would not be able to out the scum, but if I could find some clues, I figured I could point them out to the other townies who would know what to do with them. I thought if I could act transparently, at least I could give the town one less suspect to think about and possibly draw a NK. Other than a single random vote from CKD on page 1, I never drew another vote the entire game (though I did draw an awful lot of attention on N2, as I just found out). Nobody even really tried to put much pressure on me at all after D1, which I found amazing.

I didn't think I had a great Day 2. I actually was sick that week with a nasty case of pinkeye and was travelling for the Thanksgiving holiday. I saw the meta that CKD had on Korlash and I was ready to vote him, but I decided to hang back a bit and see what everyone else did so I'd have more to go on for D3. By the time I got back a day and a half later, Korlash was already dead. It never even crossed my mind that I was the one saved by the doctor.

Day 3 was a roller coaster. I locked back on Setael at the beginning of the day, until Flay got my attention. I saw a little chink in Flay's armor and attacked but, and it wasn't until Adel's vote on Flay that I got the idea of the Flay/Seteal pair. That theory was wrong, but it did get me to focus on why Seteal was protecting him so hard without a good reason, which made it easy to see through her claim on D4.

I too was stunned when Adel turned up dead at dawn on D4. I thought for sure that the mafia would target someone else and leave her alive for the probable mislynch. When the Day 4 dawn post came out, I was like, WTF??? At that point, I was desperately hoping for a cop claim because I didn't have any really strong suspects other than Setael at that point. Plus, I was actually starting to doubt Setael's guilt by then and thought she might have been protecting Flay because she had an innocent on him as I said. When Setael claimed cop and announced she investigated Sudo on N2, I was sure she was lying, but I tried to play it cool because I wasn't sure who her partner was. The rest of the game fell into place for me when CKD counterclaimed.

I worked on the strategy for the endgame to try to take some of the guesswork out of who to believe for the other townies. In retrospect, I'm not sure it did much other than speed up the timeframe for the last two days, as I think the town would have guessed right anyway. But I saw the end in sight and wanted to reach it -- plus I wanted to be double damn sure Setael didn't find a way to squirt free of yet another lynch. If CKD was putting her in a coffin, I was searching for a hammer and nails.

CKD's investigations were dead on. He not only chose right with Korlash, but he did the extra leg work to get him lynched without blowing his cover. Plus his perfectly timed counterclaim (with a guilty on Jerub) really helped to seal the deal and made it reasonably obvious to me who the final scum were. The only reason I didn't believe his claim right off the bat is because his logic and intuition was so perfect. It took a little rereading to convince myself that he didn't just engineer the whole thing, and even then I had a little lingering doubt (which is why I wanted to cover the double falseclaim scenario at the endgame). He played the cop role perfectly, what else can I say? A most deserving MVP.

Adel was pretty much right from the beginning about Korlash and Jerub, which was incredible given the relative lack of information to go on. Her Flay vote on Day 3 seems like it could have really backfired if the mafia left her alive to get mislynched, but the risk did pay off in the end. By the way, what the HELL did you have on Flay? Was it all just one big gambit? Adel may have had some "crystal meth" moments, but there is some incredible logic and intuition there too. I'm certain I learned a lot from her playstyle, though I'm not exactly sure I could put into words what it was. Adel's fresh ideas and some of her thinking out loud led to some of my theories and analysis. BTW, I'm sorry I didn't join the Daytalk game, as I wanted to devote my full energy on this one until it was done.

Flay was really fun to play with, and I felt bad after his lynch, especially because I think we held him to a really high standard this game. Behavior that would have been excused on an average player was interpreted as a scumtell on him. Isn't it nice in a way though to have your every sentence put under intense scrunity because you're seen as such an expert player? It's no wonder that the best players end up doing a lot of mod/admin duty instead. I am thinking I would enjoy modding also.

AA's logic was solid and his every move seemed pro-town to me so it was easy for me to get a good read on him. Plus, one of his posts on D4 was the inspiration of the strategy to cinch the game. CKD helped refine it also.

Mexal was only alive for Day 1, but I am grateful for his suggestions to help me improve. He has this uncanny ability to seem to know exactly how much to say and how to walk the line between pressing others and sitting back to observe. The scum absolutely made the right choice with that NK, as Mexal would have been way too dangerous to let live.

As for Gunslinger, I greatly appreciate the protection on N2. And Oman nailed the protections on N3 and N4 to ensure the cop stayed alive. I still hadn't figured out CKD was the cop then, but Oman somehow got CKD's signal at the end of D3.

Sudo had me puzzled for a long time, but he posted just enough that I eventually got the right read on him.

I think the mafia did pretty well, all things considered. I think the NK on Adel and the timing of Setael's claim were the only questionable calls, but I applaud the mafia for making bold choices and going down swinging. I think they got a bit unlucky too. Korlash confused people enough to survive D1, but he tripped over his own lie and was doomed by an excellent investigation choice by CKD N1. Jerub blended in well and totally had me fooled on D1 and D2 until he hammered. CKD's investigation on me doomed Jerub also, I think -- with Adel dead and me virtually cleared, Jerub was really the only viable suspect left to investigate from the Flay mislynch. As for Setael, I think she got unlucky because I latched onto her predecessor early on D1 and never really let go. I still wonder whether Anata really attacked me in that summary post back on Day 1 or not. I appreciated how the scum made bold choices and went down swinging.

And I give NabNab a lot of credit for making a relatively ho-hum setup (only two power roles) into a very interesting game with incredible flavor. This game is one of the very few I've read that I could actually picture the setting in my mind. NabNab didn't even have to say a lot because the imagery was so powerful. Flay is right though -- it takes a new level of rat bastard mod-ness to kill off the WINNING TEAM in the endgame. But even I can't get too mad at NabNab for the final death scene, as I could totally see myself saying exactly what NabNab wrote for me. An excellent mod performance, no doubt.

I am deeply honored by Flay's nomination and Adel's second. I literally am as new as they come, as I have not played mafia anywhere ever before. I learned about it because Mafia was the link of the day on Wikipedia a few months back and it looked like fun -- Wikipedia led me to this site. I did read through a lot of games on this site to learn the theory before I joined the queue, as I knew I needed to be prepared. In RL, I am actually horrible at reading people, so this seemed like a great way to improve on that.

To meet and play with a bunch of great players, survive to the endgame (thanks to some timely help by the Doctor), play a small part in a a town win, and get a Scummie nomination on top of that is far beyond what I could have expected for my first game. For me, this town victory was very sweet, indeed. Thank you all.

[Jitsu]

more intuition than anything else. The non-movable vote thing was an intentionally erratic action designed to provoke "interesting" reactions from other players. I think scum have an easier time when everything is smooth sailing, so I like to churn the water up when I think I can get away with it.

Heh, so my thinking was right at the end of Day 3 that you probably didn't have much. I was actually pretty surprised to see how much latitude the town gave you until the very end of the day when people started voting you.

The question about when you started suspecting Flay was specifically designed to determine whether or not you were the cop without making it obvious. When you said you didn't suspect him until well after Day 3 started, I knew you couldn't have a guilty on him. The funny thing was that Flay was still my best suspect for other reasons by then, so my vote stayed where it was.

[Jitsu]

Good news... my eyes did not bleed... bad news... I think they fell out somewhere... hmmm... uh oh I think my cat got a hold of them...

Good game though...

Heh, same to you.

[Jitsu]

And I realized that I did get another vote on Day 1 after all -- from Gunslinger, who thought I might be acting "too townie". That just makes his protection on me N2 even more funny.

[Jitsu]

Jitsu, have you played elsewhere before this?

No, never. I never even heard about mafia until a month or two before this game started. I learned about mafia last August/September or so because it was featured as the link of the day on Wikipedia.com. Reading about it piqued my curiosity, so I followed a link on Wikipedia.com to here and started reading. I was intrigued by complexity of the game, the logic and deduction involved, and the townies having to deal with a lack of information and scum that can pretty much say whatever they want to mislead the town. I'm also big on strategy, tactics, and game theory/mechanics in general.

I lurked on the forums and read though a lot of games (probably at least 20 or 30) to get a feel for the strategy involved before I felt comfortable enough to sign up and join the queue. [The Mafia vs. Wolves Redux game that Setael and Flay both played in, and Flay later took over modding duties for, was one of my favorites due to the limited reveal and all of the special factors to consider.] I went for a Mini Normal on my first try because I wanted the full experience (not knowing what the setup was, more advanced strategy, more possibility of roles other than cop/doc etc.) I wanted to be well-prepared so that I didn't look like a fool.

Actually, I am pretty horrible at reading people in real life, so I thought it would be fun to try it here. I'm also a rotten liar and have a really guilty conscience in real life. By the way, did anyone catch on to the fact that "jitsu" means "truth" in Japanese? I thought it was an appropriate name for a mafia player that's studying Japanese.

My plan from the beginning was to be an investigator: active and trying to scumhunt as much as possible, and drawing a vanilla townie role was really the perfect scenario for me. If I had gotten cop or doctor, I think I would have tried to play differently. And if I drew scum, well, I figured I'd just try to blend in and act townie and take the lead from the other scum.

I was beginning to wonder around D3 if I was being a bit TOO townie. Flay and Adel were out for each other's throats, and I continued to beat up on Setael, but one of the things that everyone agreed on that I was town, which I think is hilarious. I was attacking Setael, and then Flay, and even took some shots at Adel, but nobody really came after me, so I just kept probing. Everyone continued to list me as town, so I figured I better just run with it.

I also agree with Adel that the fake cop claim was a good idea, but it just didn't work because CKD pretty much made ideal choices for his investigations (and it was absolutely not due to luck -- CKD knew exactly what he was doing and made high-percentage plays, which paid off handsomely for the town). I was certain that Setael was lying as soon as she said she investigated Sudo N2, but convincing the other townies would have been really tough without CKD's counterclaim.

I'm actually curious to hear Setael's thoughts on me. If Adel was the pain in Flay's ass, then I was definitely the pain in Setael's.

[Jitsu]

@jitsu: There's a reason you drew a NK so early - your arguments were solid and well-made and you were pretty obviously town. Worked well for you in this game because you were protected, but if the doc hadn't guessed right, you'd have been watching most the game.

Yes, I admit I was very, very lucky.

I would still have considered it a compliment if I were taken out early, but you're right, it's probably not the best general style overall unless I'm going for the "Most Likely N1 Kill" Scummie. I'll have to consider how to adjust for the future.

This game really took a lot out of me. I did a lot of analyzing and spent a lot of time crafting my posts. It boggles my mind to imagine how some of you play multiple games at once. I guess it must get easier with practice.

[Jitsu]

Also, you analyze more post-game than anyone I've ever met.

qft

Well, keep in mind, for a lot of you this was probably just another game, but for me it was a huge learning experience. So the post-game analysis is just as useful to me as the in-game analysis. I'm just trying to get the most out of it.

Okay, I promise I'll stop analyzing this game now. No, really. I will. I can stop anytime I want.

[Jitsu]

I hate the idea that individual players will try to appear less pro-town in order to try to survive longer. It's just selfish bad town strategy. Everyone should try to play every game (that they are vanilla) as pro-town as possible. The only argument I can see to the contrary is to hide the town power roles better, but the town power roles could follow suit and they wouldn't be at any additional risk.

I don't think I explained myself well. I really wasn't trying to suggest I would try to act less pro-town as much as maybe just dial down the intensity a bit. My strategy this game was never about survival, I really had the town's interests at heart the whole time, and I want to carry that into the future and do the best for whatever team I'm on at the time. I'm very much a team player and have no qualms about making a sacrifice for my team if it will help. I've read many times on this site that the best scum are strong town players.

The only problem I see with playing every game (that you are vanilla) as pro-town as possible is that when you do draw a scum role, you could get an awful meta and and up wrecking the game for your team because your playstyle is so different. I intend to play any future roles as scum with as much effort as I do town roles.

[Jitsu]

Don't stop! I look forward to playing/modding with you again.

Thank you; I feel the same. I think I'll take a little time off to recharge and process what I've learned from this game, read some other games, and then probably jump into another game.

The only thing I would say, is don't change your style based on the role you're given (especially after saying that out loud here). Doctors who lurk (which they think is a good strategy for staying alive) draw fire and suspicion; see Gunslinger. Cops can fairly easily telegraph that they're investigators, but if other townies are doing a good job, they'll blend in. And you'll be amazed how much there is to 'fake analyze' as Scum...

You and AA have good points. I don't think I could ever really play the part of lurker or unhelpful townie, as it's just not me. I doubt I could shut up or resist analyzing something for that long, real or fake.

[Jitsu]

it wasnt an insult

No worries, no offense taken.

[Jitsu]

I'd like to hope I would be as good an analyzer as jitsu or mexal if I was only in one game at a time and near a computer 10+ hours a day.

I'm guessing you meant that as a compliment and not sarcasm. Assuming that's true, thank you.

Naturally it is easier to analyze if you have more time, though if you have too much, there is a tendency to overanalyze, which isn't good either. Also, I have a lot of practice, as I'm a computer programmer/software engineer. Logical analysis is a big part of my job. Mafia is a bit more "fuzzy logic", but the main principles still apply, I think.

Part of the reason I did the post-game analysis was to review how I approached the game and how well it worked. When experienced players play this game, they can use their experience and intuition to help, but I think in most cases, they are not playing purely on intuition (even though they might think that). Instead, what they have done is trained themselves to analyze the game more efficiently in light of their experience. Since I have no experience, I either had to wing it, or analyze everything this game in painful detail. I chose the latter. Given that, I simply don't have the time (or energy) to be able to do that for several games at once. I am still amazed by the people that can play many games at once

well

. I'm definitely not at that point yet.

Actually, I think you are probably a better analyzer than you think. I thought your performance on the last day of Mini 486 was quite impressive. Your clutch analysis on Shanba right before the deadline got him lynched and won the game for the town. I didn't have a performance quite like that in this game, but I'd like to think that all my analyzing in this game did do some good.

Another question: Did you really find that contradiction yourself that you mentioned in your vote on Korlash?

[Jitsu]

Then I realized that that wouldn't work either, and hence resigned and saved Jitsu with the logic that everyone probably figured that he was town and the mafia would target.

Well, you may have made some mistakes this game, but nobody can argue that your logic on the night 2 protect was correct. I certainly won't.

At the very least, you saved a townie from death. That's still got to feel good.

[Jitsu]

I just cant see why anyone would walk away from a mafia role..lesson learned

Mex, I think this game would have been totally different if you would have survived through N1.

Oh, she walked away cause of the pressure. When you got someone like Jitsu or I breathing down her neck, it's really really hard to get out of it if you're inexperienced. She prob figured it was easier to leave then try to wiggle out.

It's true. Both in real life and in Mafia, people can do some surprising things when they are backed into a corner with little chance of escape. If you've ever seen a cornerned animal, you know what I mean. But after getting burned by this a few times, I think people learn how to cope with this.

If you've got a good analyzer after you, it's even worse, because they're not just going to be content to sit around and watch your squirm. They're already analyzing your approach, trying to predict what you will do, and maneuvering to cut off your escape routes. And if you give crappy answers to the analyzer, it only reinforces their belief that you have something to hide and digs you a deeper hole. If you're not prepared for that, it can get really ugly.

Think about the situation Anata was in. When I attacked her and voted, Mexal and Jerub followed soon after and even Korlash stated he wanted to hear her defense. Having Mexal and I breathing down her neck was bad enough, but her two scumbuddies abandoned her too, letting her fend for herself. I'd have to be pretty frustrated in that situation myself as a newbie scum. I've seen people get frustrated enough in situations like that, that they even posted their role PMs just to prove the attacker wrong (only to get themself Modkilled).

You may think that the obvious strategy then would be to grab someone, throw them into the corner and attack them until they crack. But if you continue to do this without just cause, the rest of the town will think you are an aggressive bully, and might lynch you. So I think it is a fine line to walk.

I think this really underscores why it's necessary to have a good defense. If Anata had actually tried to respond to my points (even if she just played the newbie card), I probably would have let up on her. But she didn't -- she evaded my points and tried to turn the tables on me with a weak argument. By that point, I sensed I was in a superior position and I smelled blood. I wasn't even looking for a great defense; I was looking for *a* defense.

So when she tried to change the subject and turn my argument back on me with a waek argument, I went for the jugular. I just couldn't she why she would have done that if she were innocent. My original case on her may or may not have been built on actual scummy behavior, but her reaction to it was very telling to me.

In a way though, I'd feel bad if I were the reason why she abandoned this game.

@Mod: Did Anata112 say anything to you about why she left?

[Jitsu]

Wait? Shit, did I win?

Yes. You are teh winnar.

I picked it N3 CKD, though I couldn't say anything grr.

That last nights protect was going to be interesting for me, because I realised CKD would not have been the target, but I was likely to. So I dropped the hammer trying to seem as scummy as possible, knowing I had tghe claim up my sleeve.

Tell me about it. I was desperately wanting to analyze the possible power roles that were out there and who they could be on D3, but I knew I couldn't talk about it.

Your hammer on D4 actually didn't look scummy at all, as the two cop claims already gave us the identity of the last two scum. It didn't matter who the mafia chose to NK on N4. The game was pretty much won at that point, as long as we followed the right strategy. Neither you nor CKD were needed after the two cop claims, but that's okay -- both of you had already done what you needed to do.

In addition, you had CKD protected on the crucial N3. If the mafia had targeted CKD, we probably would still have won. It was that guilty that CKD got on Jerubbaal that we needed to put the game away.