Mini 562 - Omod - The End?

[vikingfan]

Mod: has Sensfan given me his vote for the entire day or just until some date at which point he will come back and keep his original vote?

[vikingfan]

hm...we've got two unique situations we don't usually get day one...at least nobody can talk about not having anything to discuss.

Given what CES has said about SensFan, I'm inclined to think there's a role that kidnaps a player for the day. I'm inclined to think it's either a anti-town role or a byproduct of a pro-town role (such as a doctor that protects his target but removes his target in the process) or something else. I find it hard to believe that it's a sole protown role, though, since it's beneficial to the town to have everyone playing If this isn't part of RL (as in no V/LA issues), then it's beneficial to the town to have everyone discussing today since we don't know who will be absent tomorrow.

I'm thinking vollkan makes an excellent vig candidate- the only thing that has me leery is if he's anti-town and has some sort of condition where he kills anyone trying to kill him. Still, it's far enough out there that I think it's worth considering. Thoughts?

I'm not voting yet- with two, and maybe three, votes, my votes are quite powerful and I want to use them wisely.

[vikingfan]

Oh, miller roles can be in normal games...I've seen it all the time. But whether it's in THIS game...that's a different question.

The only reason I was speculating about weird roles is because I was trying to see if there was any danger of just having him nightkilled by a vig (assuming we have one). CES, any reason why you'd rather have him live longer rather than sooner? we've all agreed we don't want him in lylo, so I'm curious why you wouldn't rather just off him sooner...

[vikingfan]

I don't want to vote SSF since I have multiple votes (and I think it might be a lynch if I did vote him). So I'll simply

FOS SSK

and wait for an explanation.

As far as the miller thing goes, I still think nightkilling is the best way to go. If he's town, there's no way the mafia will kill him for us when they know we're going to do it ourselves sooner or later, and for them, they'd rather we waste a lynch on it. This, of course, assumes we have a vig...if we don't, then things get more complicated.

Here's something to think about. Assuming this absentee player thing is part of the game, then logically we should be calculating early on who we want to give our votes to in case we are also absentee tomorrow. Giving a protown vote to a mafia is bad for us. Now, if this is a protown thing and a mafia disappears tomorrow, then he would have to decide whether to risk outing a fellow mafia (if he dies later, that person he gives the vote to will be the first place we look), or give it to a townie. Either way, that can help us. If we give a vote to a mafia from a town player, on the other hand, that's bad news.

Thoughts?

[vikingfan]

there are 4 people voting SSK, not 3. and we're still missing two people, so I want to hear from them shortly. I'm holding my vote for now since he would be one away from a lynch and I don't want a mislynch. But I will solidify my

FOS SSK

after that post. would you like to give a claim? or at least a better explanation of what you're talking about?

and that whole proxy thing is cleared up, which is good to know.

[vikingfan]

oh, really? I was thinking that if I used my votes, then they'd both be used simultaneously...perhaps my definition of proxy was different.

but if you wish

vote SSK

, though this now puts us at 5, one away from lynch. NO more VOTING on him until we get a claim or better explanation.

[vikingfan]

Sorry, everybody, had a busy weekend. I'm here now and ready to defend.

Here, he clearly believes that his votes are

not

joined together. It's not a matter of miscounting--he actually corrects someone else's miscount in the latter, earlier post. SSK requires 6 posts to be lynched. At the time of the earlier post, SSK has 4 votes, as Vikingfan kindly points out. Thus, he should be saying that he's not voting SSK because his double-vote would lynch SSK. However, this is not what he is saying. What he is saying is that he will be

one away from a lynch

. This implies that Vikingfan can separate his votes--and knows it.

False. You are taking my words out of context. Yes, he did have 4 votes. However, I spoke as I usually would about a vote, just like everyone else would. More to the point, when I put on the vote on SSK, I had only one vote and thought that so long as we put out the knowledge that no one was supposed to hammer, we were fine. And I was right, except for the fact that our honorable moderator made a mistake. I'm going back through the other posts now to see what else people are writing that I need to respond to.

Finally, I am very suspicious right now. Everybody jumped on SSK's case and he proved to be town. Now everybody is jumping on mine and I'm prepared to guess that there is at least one scum on my wagon, and probably on SSK's too. Listen carefully to what I'm saying and refer back to this in the case I'm lynched or nightkilled.

[vikingfan]

I agree vikingfan's vote was really scummy. He changed his mind from wanting everyone to post before voting, to voting just because sensfan challenged him. I just think that if I was in his position, sensfan voting me wouldn't have really bothered me. So why did it put so much pressure on vikingfan that he felt the need to vote mafiassk?

On this one, I like to be consistent, and I had held my vote(s) prior to this but then it struck me that SSK wasn't in so much danger at all so long as we made it well known not to hammer. I've seen this done in other games and it's worked out fine. Should I ignore what one player says if I realize that it should be consistent?

[vikingfan]

Also, it should be noted that I did want to hear from everybody, but I thought we would be OK if we were -1...we would have been fine if not for the mod error.

P.S. where the heck is malthusis? heavy lurker and according to the mod, he's picked up his prod.

vote malthusis

to get him out of lurker mode.

[vikingfan]

or, by the same logic, why would scum put themselves on the chopping block so early? Think about it- scum try to blend into the background, not getting themselves all visible. In retrospect, we should have considered this with SSK- everybody was attacking him so strongly and he wound up being town. This is now the same reason I believe vollkan to be who he says he is- there is no reason to put yourself out as a suspect this early. The odds were one in ten (purely random, subtracting the dead player of sierra and whatever presumable cop we have) that he might be investigated, no more than any other player. It now appears that the primary complaint against me is that I put him at lynch -1 on page 3, at least that's what Porochaz is saying. Quite frankly, SSK was acting irrationally and I wasn't liking at all what he was saying. After I lost SensFan's vote, I felt like it would be reasonably safe to do so provided that we put out in big bold letters for no one to hammer, and we should have been OK. I've done that in other games and been just fine, so this argument, to me, Porochaz, is WIFOM. Putting pressure on a player early is common. Now, you may argue about the absent players, and that is valid, but I thought we were safer than we were and under no expectation did I expect a combination of a self-vote and mod error...it just hasn't happened in my games.

Right now I'm quite suspicious. We've had two nights now with only one kill, so presumably there's only one scum group. Not surprisingly, the scum are now latching onto me as the lynch target given my behavior yesterday so they can get another lynch of a town player and another night closer to winning.

[vikingfan]

CKD, he mentioned the applicability of what he said to SSK:

Think about it- scum try to blend into the background, not getting themselves all visible. In retrospect, we should have considered this with SSK- everybody was attacking him so strongly and he wound up being town.

Something else I noticed just now:

Finally, I am very suspicious right now. Everybody jumped on SSK's case and he proved to be town. Now everybody is jumping on mine and I'm prepared to guess that there is at least one scum on my wagon, and probably on SSK's too. Listen carefully to what I'm saying and refer back to this in the case I'm lynched or nightkilled.

Right now I'm quite suspicious. We've had two nights now with only one kill, so presumably there's only one scum group. Not surprisingly, the scum are now latching onto me as the lynch target given my behavior yesterday so they can get another lynch of a town player and another night closer to winning.

Twice now he has raised the idea that he is just the poor victim of scum exploitation. This is a blatant emotional appeal, even more so in this particular game given the events of D1.

No, it's more based on the fact that I know I'm town so I'm saying what I'm saying partly for future reference if I'm lynched since I know I'll be found town. My suspects will be upcoming for the same reason.

[vikingfan]

i dont buy into anyone pushing "blatant emotional appeal" as a scum tell.

Appeals to emotion are not scumtells (without meta evidence). They are, however, excellent examples of poor arguments.

Viking's defences thus far have dodged the main thrust of the attack against him (ie. his change of mind about L-1 voting), have relied on wifom and have resorted to appeals to emotion.

As far as change of mind goes, as I've said earlier, I thought it would be better to be consistent. As mentioned before, I voted since I thought it would be safe, and it wasn't. How long would you have preferred I wait? SSK was showing no signs of being communicative. Or just until the other two players showed up? I'm curious on this. My argument of WIFOM was simply that you guys are saying that only a scum would do that, whereas I'm arguing that a scum would have nothing to gain by putting his head on the chopping block so soon.

[vikingfan]

CES definitely raises my eyebrows...he strikes me as being too willing to repeat others' thoughts. And Porochaz has been riding my case very hard today so that raises my eyebrows some. Scum have a vested interest in seeing me die today and it's worth it to them to try and get me lynched since that would be 4 town players dead and a probable 5th dead tonight, which, if there's 3 scum players (quite common), would mean that we would already be in lylo with a proclaimed miller possibly active. Not a good scenario for the town. I do agree that my death would give the town information but not enough to justify a suicide to help the town. In any case, I don't play that way.

[vikingfan]

Maybe I was a bit too quick on the trigger, but my reasons are that he hasn't really given a straight answer to the big question(why the heck did you do a 180 on your stance against MafiaSSK?Saying he was acting irrational isn't good enough for me. ) . Another move that was scummy (that I didn't think people notice) is that viking said close to the start that he thought vollkan should be killed by the vig, yet in #96 he says he totally trusts vollkan's miller claim.In the same post, he says that scum wouldn't normally throw themselves on the chopping block(screams scum to me). Both of them totally looks like a strategies to suck up to the townies. The fact that he has been dodgy isn't helping. He hasn't replied much either. This is why I think he's scum.

As to the point about vollkan, it must be noted that I, like everyone else, suspected SSK of being scummy. Once he was lynched and found town, I considered that it would be more suspicious, if, by the same token, vollkan was scum since he put his neck out without needing to. SSK did that without needing to, we thought him guilty, and he was lynched, and voila, proved town! which proves that just because someone is acting oddly does not make them scum, even if they can't explain their way out. Thus my reason to believe vollkan. mal also seems not to allow for changes in thought based on lynches. Not responding much? I haven't heard that from ANYBODY else today- they may not believe me, but they haven't been criticizing how much I've been posting...I've been quite extensive.

as far as the lynch -1 thing goes, I'm not sure what I can say that I haven't already. I suppose a roleclaim is now upcoming?

[vikingfan]

anything to back up that vote, near? I'm always suspicious when I see people voting without anything to go with it.

[vikingfan]

anything to explain your vote, ckd? you're doing the same thing near is...voting without an explanation.

[vikingfan]

Looks like it's time for a role claim. I am just a regular townie. At least if you lynch me (which given what people are saying is sadly looking more likely), you guys won't lose much. I WILL say though to consider what I've been saying once the esteemed mod announces that I am town. Keep in mind also that if the mafia succeed in a kill tonight, tomorrow may quite possibly be LYLO.

Anything more the town wants to know from me? I don't feel like there's much more I can say.

[vikingfan]

I haven't given much thought to this thread... but my hunches: Malthusis and Vikingfan are scums together.

Hunch.

How on earth do you get this? if anything mal has been very OPPOSED to me, not working with me.

Near has been playing quite suspiciously for me lately with his voting without explanation and now this. I can go for

vote near

quite nicely.

[vikingfan]

Have either of you ever heard of bussing?

Yes, I have...and from my vantage point, it sure doesn't look like mal and I have been doing it. Now, I could quite easily see mal as being scum trying to off me the townie, but we've been working pretty opposite.

Out of curiousity, would my lynch give much at all information? I know I'm town and it seems everyone's up for my lynch, so regardless (from your point of view), I'm not sure how much information you guys are going to get.

[vikingfan]

Hello? anybody home? *echo*

[vikingfan]

Right now, I really don't like the way Near just posts without explanations. The more content posted, the better. The same, to a lesser extent, is true of mal. I really don't like the way they both post and run.

If anybody has any questions of me (that I haven't already answered to the best of my knowledge), feel free to ask.

[vikingfan]

They are, but you didn't explain them. You just voted and unvoted without any reason. Besides, you said that they were random votes.

[vikingfan]

A few DAYS Near? There's 7 pages worth of information...there's enough to go on by now that hunches aren't necessary.

[vikingfan]

edit: make that 9 pages.

[vikingfan]

I'm waiting for Near to respond to my questions. As for the meta, I don't like trying to speculate about it...that just leads to WIFOM, IMO.

[vikingfan]

- Because he keeps using phrases like "I know I'm town" and "once the esteemed mod announces that I am town" in order to illustrate his innocence.
- Also,

Looks like it's time for a role claim. I am just a regular townie. At least if you lynch me (which given what people are saying is sadly looking more likely), you guys won't lose much. I WILL say though to consider what I've been saying once the esteemed mod announces that I am town.

Keep in mind also that if the mafia succeed in a kill tonight, tomorrow may quite possibly be LYLO.

Anything more the town wants to know from me? I don't feel like there's much more I can say.

There were once 12 players, and I am guessing a game with 3 scums are pretty common. But this particular statement revealed "more in depth" thinking than your other statements. While rest of your paragraph consisted of things like "I know I am town" and "mod will announce that I am town", this illustrates that you were actually *thinking* ahead. I think it would be easier to arrive at this hypothesis/conclusion if you know exactly how many scums there are. So in this particular case, because you didn't display logical thinking in elsewhere in your argument, I am more inclined to think that you arrived at that conclusion because you know how many scums there are.

If you disagree with me, did you already think about the possibility of LYLO in this game?

A few questions:

1) How does role claiming town help prove your innocence? I am not sure I understand.
2) Vikingsfan, what do you think about sensfan dying on night 1? Do you think it makes you more or less likely to be a scum?
3) If a mason is lynched, is he revealed as a "townie" or "mason"? Same thing if he's NKed?

1) it doesn't. However, keep in mind much of what I'm writing is for future reference for the town to look back on in the event I'm lynched.

2) My best guess is that he was killed to put more suspicion on me. Beyond that, I have no clue- it's usually WIFOM to make guesses like that.

3) He's usually referred to as a mason...why do you ask?

I don't like the way you're referring to other uncompleted games...it's usually blatantly against the rules in the OP of every game.

[vikingfan]

Um, I believe the deadline is before wednesday, rigel. when exactly is the deadline?

[vikingfan]

how about giving that opinion you had, porochaz?

[vikingfan]

mind explaining your vote, ckd? as for porochaz, I've responded to that already- search under 'vikingfan'.

Any reason why you hope I'm still the leading wagon, CES?

[vikingfan]

viking, you still think malthusis is scum?

As of now, yes, though Near is still high on my scum-meter.

[vikingfan]

looks like I'm lynched. Bye town! note my posts well!