Mini 559 - Cult Mafia again - Game over

[Blazerunner]

Sorry for not posting.
Well, day start has pros and cons, of course. Pro is no one starts killed without ever saying anything
Con is we have nothing to start. No cop report, no attempted doc saves, no dead body with a known role so we can predict how many of each role we have left.

About the discussion about claim-lynch, fake claim, etc. I think its quite pointless. If we expect people to fake claim, there is no telling if the one claiming is a maifa or a townie. Soo, I guess its quite random, people can just do as they will... This is my first forum game, so I may be wrong, but this is how it seems to me.

Im not voting now, as we have no clue

[Blazerunner]

Blaze: The reason why ppl random vote at the beginning of the game is to encourage disscusion. No discussions are pointless. You could sometimes work out the real intension of the people who start or join them.

So, do you think OMG was overdefensive, or others were just misunderstanding him?

As I said, this is my first forum game, and first day-start too, Im used to night-start, real-time games, like www.epicmafia.com, so Im still a bit puzzled

Anyway, I think people misunderstood OMG, there is nothing wrong in principle on saying "even if I am mafia, you should do this". People do it all the time. But I do think he is posting a lot and being somehow repetitive on his point, and that could be because people didnt seem to understand him nevertheless...

[Blazerunner]

I have 3 questions, 2 about rules and one about strategy:

1-If the cop investigates a cultist, will he know its a cultist? Or investigating tells him only "mafia-not mafia"

yes, think town- not town

2-If the answer for question 1 is "yes", and if the cultist attempts to recruit a vanilla townie, and the cop decides to investigate the same townie, will the recruit take place first, and then the cop will investigate and discover he is a cultist, or will the cop investigate first, think he is a townie, and then he will be recruited?

as per the rules, the recruit takes place when the day starts. investigation result occurs at night's end

3-About strategy now... Would it be a good strat for the village?
We dont lynch first day, second day the cop claims and gives his report, and doctor protects him.

I think its best not to lynch than killing a townie. But the strat I posted seems risky too, cause on night one, mafia could kill a power role, cultists recruit a townie and day 2 mafia fake claim cop... The scenario doesnt look nice

[Blazerunner]

Picking on OMG for him saying "If I was mafia" seems to me like being desperate, or wanting to frame a townie.

Doesnt men OMG really isnt mafia, its just that what he said first has really nothing scumish, IMHO

Anyway, what is "FoS"?

[Blazerunner]

Why do you suggest this strategy? I assume you don't suggest this in all your games. I also assume that the reason you suggest it is the different nature of this game. But I can't see why a cult game would benefit from your strategy. Please explain your thoughts and reasoning!

Yupp, I dont suggest this every game... this is my first game here

If you see my post, you'll see I said that seemed risky to me. I just wanted to know if, in other people's opinion, it was valid

[Blazerunner]

Vote Blazerunner

I dislike your plan from a town standpoint. Would be great if you were cult though.

OMG: There is no godfather in this game for sure.

I was just asking if it would be good, and I myself said it was probably too risky, I didn't actually propose the plan....

But feel free to vote me!

About the roles... The mod used godfather and doctor in the exemples of mafia and town power roles, and while it does not really mean they are there, it is very likely... Even because they are common roles... And if the godfather is there, probably we do have a cop... Put we can just make guesswork, not know for sure...

[Blazerunner]

@ elias. Why are you voting OMG?

I think he was just trying to be funny

[Blazerunner]

There is something, IMO about this fakeclaiming discussion, that might be going a little unnoticed

It can be good for townies, if all townies understand it is fake, AND ALL SCUMS DON'T, and if we are all openly saying "fakeclaiming is ok", then the mafia wont buy it... Its a coinflip.

That is the problem of metagame... We say "fakeclaiming is ok", so no one buys it, even the mafia. Then, if all scums will believe you are lying, claiming the truth now is the best thing to do. But if telling the truth is what people should do because everybody thinks they are faking, then everybody should expect people to tell the truth. But if mafia expects the truth, we should fakeclaim. Then we should tell the truth. Fake. Truth. Fake. Truth....

You see? Following the metagame leads us to a loop. So its basically a coinflip if people are, in principle faking or not, and if they are, in principle, expecting townies to fake or not...

[Blazerunner]

ty for more eloquently making the point i was trying to explain blaze. you dont feel like being my omg -> reyo translator do you? if you could just summarise my posts after i post for those that arent reading them correctly?

for those that seem to have a problem understanding my posts, i think it must be that some of you are just skimming them because i post so much, that post by blaze is exactly what i was trying to say.

with the exception of those players who have a metagame of 'never lying' claiming becomes a levelling exercise and thus claiming is relatively pointless.

OH NOES now they will think I am sided with you *runz*

Just joking

[Blazerunner]

If he's already explained that he fakeclaims prior to making the claim then the town should believe him. Even if he takes back his claim, it doesnt make him that suspicious because revealing yourself as something else really doesnt have THAT much benefit to scum.

I dont like the sound of you saying now that even if he fakeclaims, we should believe he is townie just because he already told he might fakeclaim... If thats the case, everybody can come here, say "I agree, fakeclaiming rox" and everybody claims the fuck up... Then the town is with trouble...

Vote: Elias_the_thief

[Blazerunner]

um...ok. Because one person saying that they fakeclaim definately means that EVERYONE will do it. Makes perfect sense.

Listen, I'm not saying we should believe everyone on this, but OMG ALWAYS fakeclaims. I've seen it in games with him before. I'm talking meta right now.

Anyways, why exactly are you voting me? Does saying that I would believe a fakeclaim really make me scum? Think before you vote, what benefit does it give to scum? If its not much, then your vote is a poor one (hint: your vote is a poor one).

Hmmm, it seemed to me you were kind of defending OMG when everybody was atacking him, saying we should believe hes townie even if he claimed andwe discovered it was a fake...

But you are right, a vote was kind of hasty, I should have FoSed you or just asked for an explanation...

Anyway, can I just unvote, or do I need to vote someone else to do it?
If I can...

unvote

[Blazerunner]

Toshiro: there are only 2 mafia, the other one is a cult leader. I don't see much of a link between elias and GS either.

------------------------------------------


Blaze: Could you place a vote, fos or give us an idea of who you think is scummy at the moment on your next post please.

I dont see a link between elias and GS either, but I dont see a link between GS an anybody, because he is lurking, and that is one of the very reasons why people are voting GS anyway... If people vote him for lurking, how could he seem to have a connection?

[Blazerunner]

Well, Im also voting GSGold, cant be really creative on the reasons, its just what everybody is saying and I agree with: Lurking and his voting on OM, looks waek and too persistent

Vote: GSGold

[Blazerunner]

[quote="Oman]The best night for us is when the mafia kills

a townie and

the cult

tries to recruit a powerrole (barring doc protect etc).

fixed [/quote][/quote]

I thin by "etc." He meant such things that are obviously good, doc protection, cult killed, doc investigating one of the mafia...

[Blazerunner]

I thin by "etc." He meant such things that are obviously good, doc protection, cult killed,

doc

COP

investigating one of the mafia...

[Blazerunner]

unvote

As GSGold has been replaced, I think I shouldnt keep voting his replacement, at least until he speaks...

After he speaks, an when I have time to read the topic again, I will vote someone.

[Blazerunner]

I wish Battle Mage would post... I was voting the person he replaced mainly for lurking and now he is here and only posted "I will make a post soon, reading the topic"

FoS: Battle Mage

untill he speaks

[Blazerunner]

FoS: Blazerunner

for keeping a low profile.

Explain what you mean by low profile.

If you mean Im not posting that much, the last post before the one I made today I said I was waiting for BM to post, and he hasnt yet, so Im still waiting, until he speaks, I dont have a lot to comment.

Would you like me to comment about the other things going on? I see OMG voting without much of an explanation, and some stupid offenses over that, and GW voting oman for the same reason I was voting GS and now FoSing BM: lack of posting

[Blazerunner]

First off, sorry to BM for saying he was lurking, I hadnt realized his reading about the game was gonna be that detailed. His result justifies the time he spent without posting

Now, I started reading the game again, checking BM and Dahen's comments on their re-reads, and I realized I dont know what WIFOM means, i didnt want to ask when the game started, thinking I would eventually understand, but I am still confused...

Looks to me like something about metagame, but I dont quite understand it, and I think it is critical to understand, so I can re-read the game better

[Blazerunner]

Some things to comment

I kind of feel that you're making yourself hard to read and hve NOT put a tiny bit of effort into finding scum at all. You voted elias before because he agreed that fakeclaiming is alright. Fair enough at the beginning, but you made no effort in pushing the case further or anything and took the vote back on the next day. You then appear only once every 2 or 3 days thereafter just to comment on the inactivity of various people. What about dahen, FoO, GW, Norinel, Pinkpuppy, Xtoxm, oman and me? Thats more than half the players in the game. Haven't you got anything to say?

Well, I hadnt realized, but now I see I am really doing it, though unniontentionally... No escuses or denyings here

[quote="Pink Puppy]The wiki has a good explanation ot it here: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM[/quote]

Thanks for the link, it really helped. On the other hand, I started clicking lots of links on the wiki, about game theory, dillemas, and stuff, lots of interesting stuff, but it deviated me from re-reading the post

I couldnt read it all, nor with much attention, but I have come to this: I think both elias and OMG have something scummy about them, but I cant really quote any posts right now, its just a general conclusion from what I have seen this far. But while both look suspicious, I dont think they both are mafia at the same time because of this:

vote: omg_im_innocent_wtf
because we have history.

no, hes changed some. before he got impatient and tired of town really quickly, and basically just swore at people (this was as town). And I apparently got really pissed at him, reading the old games. Ironically, thats kind of my style now, though not to the same extent. But yeah, hes definately a bit different in this game, either because of time away from the site or because of him being scum this time.

If I was mafia, and knew the other mafia, I wouldnt point at the very begining we knew each other, as it makes people ask you to comment the other's play, and you might end up turning yourself in.

While mafia goons can sometimes play "against" each other, pointing the other's tiniest mistakes to make it seem like they are in opposite teams in case one gets discovered, I dont think he would even create this link saying "hey, I know him, ask me questions about him", just to say "yeah, he is different from when he was town" and look like he is atacking the other goon.

I am not 100% sure, but I think either OMG is scum and elias is being sincere, or Elias is scum and decided to link himself to OMG just to have someone to drag in case he got caught. There is one thing that makes me uncertain about it:

What about dahen, FoO, GW, Norinel, Pinkpuppy, Xtoxm, oman and me? Thats more than half the players in the game. Haven't you got anything to say?[/quote]

Well, I hadnt realized, but now I see I am really doing it, though unniontentionally... No escuses or denyings here

The wiki has a good explanation ot it here: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM

Thanks for the link, it really helped. On the other hand, I started clicking lots of links on the wiki, about game theory, dillemas, and stuff, lots of interesting stuff, but it deviated me from re-reading the post

I couldnt read it all, nor with much attention, but I have come to this: I think both elias and OMG have something scummy about them, but I cant really quote any posts right now, its just a general conclusion from what I have seen this far. But while both look suspicious, I dont think they both are mafia at the same time because of this:

vote: omg_im_innocent_wtf
because we have history.

no, hes changed some. before he got impatient and tired of town really quickly, and basically just swore at people (this was as town). And I apparently got really pissed at him, reading the old games. Ironically, thats kind of my style now, though not to the same extent. But yeah, hes definately a bit different in this game, either because of time away from the site or because of him being scum this time.

Here he is saying OMG is different from when he is townie. While some mafia really atack each other just to look innocent if the other is caught, and avoid any links, I dont think elias would do it, if both were mafia, because by doing it he created a link between him and OMG, forcing himself to comment about OMG'a play, which could lead him into a mistake.

I mean Elias wouldnt create a link saying "hey I know me" and offering to comment on his play just to say he is strange to avoid links, get it?

I think either OMG is scum and Elias is being sincere, or Elias is scum and said he knew OMG just so he could have any link and drag someone with him if he got caught. This is my conclusion from these posts made early in the post.

[Blazerunner]

mod, could you fix my quote on Pink puppy last post? It went wrong, I should have closed it after the link to the wiki. Thanks

[Blazerunner]

mod, could you fix my quote on Pink puppy last post? It went wrong, I should have closed it after the link to the wiki. Thanks

In fact, my entire post went wrong, I thought I had erased a part, and didnt, and re-typed somethings.... I will just post now the right way...

[Blazerunner]

Some things to comment

I kind of feel that you're making yourself hard to read and hve NOT put a tiny bit of effort into finding scum at all. You voted elias before because he agreed that fakeclaiming is alright. Fair enough at the beginning, but you made no effort in pushing the case further or anything and took the vote back on the next day. You then appear only once every 2 or 3 days thereafter just to comment on the inactivity of various people. What about dahen, FoO, GW, Norinel, Pinkpuppy, Xtoxm, oman and me? Thats more than half the players in the game. Haven't you got anything to say?

Well, I hadnt realized, but now I see I am really doing it, though unniontentionally... No escuses or denyings here

The wiki has a good explanation ot it here: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM

Thanks for the link, it really helped. On the other hand, I started clicking lots of links on the wiki, about game theory, dillemas, and stuff, lots of interesting stuff, but it deviated me from re-reading the post

I couldnt read it all, nor with much attention, but I have come to this: I think both elias and OMG have something scummy about them, but I cant really quote any posts right now, its just a general conclusion from what I have seen this far. But while both look suspicious, I dont think they both are mafia at the same time because of this:

vote: omg_im_innocent_wtf
because we have history.

no, hes changed some. before he got impatient and tired of town really quickly, and basically just swore at people (this was as town). And I apparently got really pissed at him, reading the old games. Ironically, thats kind of my style now, though not to the same extent. But yeah, hes definately a bit different in this game, either because of time away from the site or because of him being scum this time.

If I was mafia, and knew the other mafia, I wouldnt point at the very begining we knew each other, as it makes people ask you to comment the other's play, and you might end up turning yourself in.

Here he is saying OMG is different from when he is townie. While some mafia really atack each other just to look innocent if the other is caught, and avoid any links, I dont think elias would do it, if both were mafia, because by doing it he created a link between him and OMG, forcing himself to comment about OMG'a play, which could lead him into a mistake.

I mean Elias wouldnt create a link saying "hey I know me" and offering to comment on his play just to say he is strange to avoid links, get it?

While mafia goons can sometimes play "against" each other, pointing the other's tiniest mistakes to make it seem like they are in opposite teams in case one gets discovered, I dont think he would even create this link saying "hey, I know him, ask me questions about him", just to say "yeah, he is different from when he was town" and look like he is atacking the other goon.

I am not 100% sure, but I think either OMG is scum and elias is being sincere, or Elias is scum and decided to link himself to OMG just to have someone to drag in case he got caught. There is one thing that makes me uncertain about it:

I think either OMG is scum and Elias is being sincere, or Elias is scum and said he knew OMG just so he could have any link and drag someone with him if he got caught. This is my conclusion from these posts made early in the post.

[Blazerunner]

Damm, the end still was repeated, nevermind.

As I said in one "version" of the post, there is one thing that goes againnst what I just posted:

[quote:"Elias_the_thief"]4) I am defending OMG adamantly because I've played with him twice before and seen lynched for weak reasons that were spurred on by bad reactions on his part. Both times he's been town. [/quote]

I said he wouldnt say he knew it to draw suspiscious about him if both were mafia, but here he is doingg the opposite... I am a bit puzzled...

[Blazerunner]

Damm be my quotes, and sorry for the flooding I caused, if the mod can do anything to clean up, I would apreciate like fixing my quotes and perhaps deleting something if he thinks he can do it without destroying my posts' idea

[Blazerunner]

Sorry but the argument that omg and elias can't be scum together is classic WIFOM.

Look at this quote about it:

In Mafia, WIFOM arguments are often a Scum tactic used to distract the Town. The scum will make an unusual play at night, which would lead to a situation that would 'clear' them (because players will think, "Why would a scum do that?"). These arguments are sometimes used by Newbies and should be avoided in favor of clearer arguments.

Elias could have made that comment about omg intentionally as an unusual play so that later it will look like "but scum wouldn't do that!"

It's just too hard to guess.

I just dont think he would do it, but it really is WIFOM, if I say "it doesnt look like mafia" you can always say "but perhaps THAT is why he is doing it". But it doesnt mean we cant have a feel about it, or chose one of the options.

The fact is: as both are smelling like scum, what I would do if I was in control of the game would be:

-Lynch one of them
-Have cop investigate the other, if there is a cop
-Perhaps have doc protect the other, if there is a doc, in case he is townie, so he cant be cultified, in case the cultist agree with me that one of them might be tonwie. Of course, me saying who should the doctor protect kinda leads to wifom again, but there is nothing I can do.

I am leaving right now, and wont sleep at home, so probably wont make a post in the next 14~16 hours, I know there will be a lot for me to answer on what I just said, but I simply wont be able to do it immediately

[Blazerunner]

One last thing, I am just not voting right now because I need to find some posts that justifiy the "general feeling" i have about the 2 of them, and because I want to see people's and their reactions to what I just said.

[Blazerunner]

Well, I will later make a more detailed post, Im kinda busy right now. I just want to explain something that is being widely misunderstood.

The arguments for suspecting Elias and OMG are not WIFOM. What is WIFOM is my argument for thinking that tehy BOTH arent scum together. It is WIFOM but IMO it is not a complete nulltell. If Elias did what he did (say at his very first post he knew OMG) just in hope people would think "he is not related to OMG", to avoid a link with OMG, when he didnt need to do it and he would already not be linked, but just to be unpredictable, it might have been a strategy, but if he was, it developed miserably. Now everybody think he is scum with OMG.

Its hard to explain, but it really doesnt matter. Even though I think they BOTH arent scum, if we suspect both, what we should do is the same as if I thogu both of them were guilty: lynch one, investigate/ put pressure on the other

[Blazerunner]

Bah. Congratulations, Battle Mage. Happy Birthday!