Mini 549 (Tarhalindur Mostly Mountainous) - Game Over

[RangeroftheNorth]

Alright, I've read the game once. I'll probably do a second reading before I give an in-depth post, but right now Tamuz is at the top of my list of suspicious characters. Like nearly everyone else, I don't like Johoohno's post (169) detailing potential lynch candidates. He is also high on my scumdar. I'll follow up this post with more information, hopefully later today.

[RangeroftheNorth]

The more I read over Tamuz's posts, the less I like them. Throughout the entire game, his sole contribution has been a single, illogical post. He has continued insisting that Earwig is scum for most of the game without any explanation until his most recent post. As much as I dislike the content, and frequency of Tamuz's posts, I'm forced to conclude that his play style isn't very beneficial to scum. It's not very helpful to the town, either, but that's a different matter entirely.

Discarding Tamuz as a suspect, I move on to Johoohno. His posts have contributed more to the game than Tamuz's and have slightly more substance. This is good, because it gives us more to analyze. I'm going to start with this post:

I've been prodded, but I've never been away (I follow this game most thoroughly and is really enthusiastic about deadlines and activity-prods).

Being present without contributing is far worse than being away. People who aren't reading the game thread and thus not posting are more likely to be pro-town players who aren't interested in the game. People who are actively reading, but choose to lay low, are those who are trying to avoid notice and not become a target. Either way it isn't good, but reading without contributing is, at least in my opinion, a much greater scum tell.

I notice that of a lot of people (Earwig, SlySly, SlySly again and Tamuz) are not reading rules or posts very thoroughly. (Scums feeling they can afford being sloppy readers?) I'm still satisfied with my vote on Tamuz.

Maybe I'm missing something, but why would scum be less likely to read the rules than non-scum? These seems like a fairly contrived reason to suspect someone is scum.

The long going mock fight between Blackberry and Ectomancer, which ended up with peace a few posts ago, strikes me as interesting (bussing?)

I don't have much to say about this, but I don't think that any time two people have an argument, they must both be scum together. Again, he seems to be looking for any reason, no matter how solid, to throw around suspicion.

Finally I think that we might have a serial killer amongst us, making this game MOSTLY mountainuous (or those of you who are more knowledgeable than I, is there a setup name for vanillas, scums and a SK?). There are quite a few players, myself included, keeping a really low profile.

Why even bring this up? It's certainly a possibility that there is a serial killer in the game, but unless you had some knowledge the rest of us don't (i.e. your role) there's no reason to be certain of that. Any attempt to base your conclusion on the name of the game is an attempt to out-guess the mod, and that's something that's pretty well useless.

The next post of great significance is the famous post 169. Now, the main issue in this post is the "lynch someone and get it over with" attitude that you seem to be conveying here. It seemed, in your post, that you weren't really interested in who got lynched, but rather that it happen as soon as possible. This sort of attitude is indicative of someone who is far more interested in night than in the day. What with your callous disregard for who gets lynched, combined with your earlier comment about serial killers, you'd be my main suspect for being the serial killer.

Now, as I haven't played in quite a while (I think my last game was over a year ago) I might be rusty. If anyone sees some hole in my logic, please feel free to point it out. Until someone does, however, I feel confident enough to

Vote: Johoohno

[RangeroftheNorth]

Yes. I read post 189. I don't think it changed anything. In post 114, you made numerous accusations based on things that presented no indication of anti-town play. I can see no reason why not having read the rules clearly would make someone more likely to be scum, and you have yet to present an argument that shows it does.

In post 169, you indicated that you were willing to lynch any of six different candidates, and seemed to be trying to hurry that along. In post 189 you say:

5. Well, all votes in this game so far is for pressure only - I'm not ready to lynch someone yet. Are you?

but this seems to go against what you say in post 169.

Which one of these gentlemen do you all feel okay to lynch today?

I can’t say I have a strong case against anyone of them, but I’m willing to swing my vote to almost anyone of them to increase some pressure.

(Though, as of now, I would prefer either Earwig or Tamuz (and possibly a dark horse: slysly) to be the lynch of the day.)

Twice in that post, you mention lynching one of these candidates. Perhaps you used stronger language than you meant to, but it seemed from the post that you were trying to encourage a quick lynch. From everyone else's reactions to the post, I don't think I'm the only one getting that impression.

@Tamuz: The way you started agreeing with me after I said I was suspicious of you is actually making me more suspicious. It would probably make me less suspicious if you woul provide more reasoning in your posts.

[RangeroftheNorth]

@Jester:
You're right. It's a bit of a stretch to assume that he's the serial killer based solely on that information, but it's still something. Until I have more information, it's my best guess at the moment.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Talk about all sound and no fury. This last exchange between ryan and Blackberry seems to be exactly that. ryan still seems to be stuck on the idea of Blackberry's theory, which, to me, seems like it was only ever a big deal because people made it into one. This makes ryan's case that Blackberry was just "muddying the waters" less believable. To me, paying so much attention to a fairly insignificant theory that the owner wanted to investigate, but, when it turned out to be nothing, didn't want to share seems to be little more than an attempt to muddy the waters.

That isn't to say that I find Blackberry without fault. He has contributed very little actual analysis and argument to this game. He has posted a lot, but seems more interested in accusing other people of being scum without giving his reasons behind it. The way that Rosso Carne keeps jumping to Blackberry's defense is somewhat strange, but it seems like an especially poor tactic for scum, particularly after he'd already been called on it several times.

Well, there's my take on the exchange of the last couple pages. I know there isn't much of a conclusion, but that's because I don't really know what to do with the information. Both Blackberry and ryan seem to have a lot of bluster without a lot of substance. I don't know that that makes either of them scum, but it certainly doesn't secure either of them as town.

[RangeroftheNorth]

I'm not thenextepisode's biggest fan. He doesn't make much sense, he doesn't explain himself very well, and his refusal to properly capitalize in his posts is very, very irritating. (I could use more verys but I think I made the point.) Nevertheless, I'm not sure why this bandwagon on him has built up so quickly.

The first vote on thenextepisode comes from ectomancer. His post makes a lot of sense. thenextepisodes post is poorly written and telling people that he will pull off his vote if anyone else votes for RC seems a bit strange.

The votes after seem to come because he claims he didn't read a post that was very similar to one that he made later. The two posts are similar, but it would not be terribly strange for both of them to have been made separately from each other. Also, thenextepisode's posts, both before that point and after, all strike me as being highly confused. His claim that he doesn't read very thoroughly or pay much attention seems very consistent with the muddled nature of his posts.

A couple of people, especially SlySly and earwig, seem to be focusing very specifically on the idea that thenextepisode is lying when he seems to just be very confused and not terribly good at the game. Disregarding my personal distaste for the Lynch-All-Liars strategy, all of his statements can be just as easily attributed to incompetence as to a lie. Taking his poorly worded posts to mean what you want and then proving that the thing you've taken them to mean isn't true doesn't actually prove that he was lying even if he meant what you think he meant. The very most you are proving is that his posts are inaccurate, which given how confusing they are, seems just as easily attributed to poor reading/comprehension as to any attempt to deceive anyone.

It is possible that this desire to pick a quick lynch candidate has come from the fact that a permanent deadline has now been instated. I would like to remind everyone that, while the deadline exists, it is still a long ways off, and we have a while to carefully consider who we would like to lynch and do not need to rush into anything.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Alright, I'm here. I don't really have anything to add at the moment. I think that there hasn't been much useful discussion lately, but I don't know what to do to change that. I'll try to post something more constructive later today.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Here are my thoughts on this game at the moment.

I still don't like Johoohno. He's still my number one suspect which is why my vote is still on him. I feel that he's spent the entire game either advocating a quick lynch, or trying to distract from the game with discussions about setup.

I'm also suspicious of Earwig. He seems to have contributed very little actual content to the game, but has often seemed to follow the flow and has shifted his vote numerous times.

FOS: Earwig

I'm really not sure about SlySly, Jester, Battousai/ryan and tne. I'm not getting a very good read off of

I'm slightly suspicious of Rosso Carne and Blackberry, but I suspect that this is more related to the fact that I don't like their play style than that I find anything particularly scummy about their posts. I'll definately keep my eye on Fat_Tony in case he displays any behavior I find suspicious. I would add Tamuz to this group as well.

So far, my instincts tell me that Ectomancer and Nyktorian are pro-town. All this means, is that, if their scum, they are doing a pretty good job at it. I don't intend to let them off the hook any time soon.

This doesn't provide a whole lot usable information. I'm very happy with my vote at the moment. I'd like to hear some concrete ideas from Johoohno about what he think of the players in the game. Who do you think are suspicious and why?

[RangeroftheNorth]

I find it highly interesting that you ask me of my suspects, whereas you very well know that I've given them openly and that is mainly the reason for you calling me scummy as I see it.

I know no such thing. You have not made a post since post 169 where you have included anything about your suspicions on anyone. (Except for your FOS of me in the last post) Even in post 169, you simply relist the people from the vote count and restate (in brief terms) why they have been voted for. That isn't finding people suspicious, that's just summarizing the game. Since then, you have spent all your effort speculating about the game setup, something which is both futile and irrelevant. It may be useful to speculate about the game setup after we've seen more information. A couple of deaths/claims, and a night or two can help to give us an idea of what the game is setup like. Until then, everything you're saying is pure speculation.

As for your previous suspicions, the only thing they were based on was the fact that the players had not thoroughly read the rules. I've refuted that argument before. I'm not going to do it again here. As far as I can tell, those were your only significant arguments against those players, and that was over two hundred posts ago. I would like to see you thoughts since then. Who do you find suspicious now?

As for your point that I shouldn't post who I think seems pro-town, I completely disagree. My post clearly outlined my thoughts on everyone. I am a fan of completely disclosing my thoughts. The scum are playing the same game we are. They are well aware of who seems the most pro-town so far. I think that having my thought down in the thread is just as helpful to the town as it is to the scum. If you disagree, that's fine, but that's merely an issue of differing play styles, and is not reflective of my alignment in the slightest.

[RangeroftheNorth]

I'd really like to hear the posts that both Johoohno and Earwig have promised us. They are both near the top of my list, and it would be nice to hear something from either of them.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that obviously defending your scum partner from the most innocuous attacks would be a truly idiotic tactic for scum. Doing so over and over again, even after it had been pointed out in the past would require a vast, nearly amazing level of stupidity.

Now, I'm perfectly willing to admit that consistently defending one player is also horrendously bad play as town. A couple of roles might have a reason to defend someone else, but it would still be a truly idiotic choice.

Doing something that would be idiotic if you were pro-town, and would idiotic if you were scum doesn't prove that you're scum. It just proves that you're an idiot.

RC isn't a newbie who might not know better than to attempt to defend his scum partner. He's been around long enough that he should know that consistently defending someone else creates scum partner suspicions. Doing so would be just as bad play for scum as it would be for townies.

I'll admit that RC has been playing in a way that doesn't benefit the town, and that makes him worthless. It doesn't necessarily make him harmful, however.

[RangeroftheNorth]

I'm sorry, but that last post was just too much, RC. I've put up with a lot of crap from you, assuming that it was just your playstyle, but then you go and post something like that. If you are pro-town, you aren't contributing to the benefit of the town. You are detracting from the ability of the town to detect scum by acting in such a way that a significant portion of the game wants to lynch you. In this way, you become a liability to the town. That's if you are pro-town. When, in the best case scenario, you are a liability to the town, and have acted in a way that provides ample reasons to believe you are scum, I say that it is best to completely eleminate you from the game before you can do an more harm.

unvote
vote: Rosso Carne

[RangeroftheNorth]

Personally, I think Ectomancer has blown this entire thing way out of proportion. I can understand why he didn't like what Tamuz said, but I can also understand Tamuz's point of view. There are some players that I would vig just because I think their playstyle hurts the town, but part of being a vig is having the ability to make those type of decisions. Tamuz never said that he thought we should lynch Battoussai. I took what he was saying to be a dramatic statement concerning the amount he disliked playing with Battoussai. As far as I can tell, this entire argument stems, not from any particular scum indicators, but from two differing playstyles. Tamuz feels that a vig should be able to kill whoever he wants for whatever reasons he chooses. Ectomancer seems to feel that a vig should only kill someone he has solid evidence is scum.

This entire argument seems somewhat silly. Ectomancer is accusing Tamuz of being scum because of something that Tamuz would do if he were a vig. The entire argument is based on a hypothetical statement Tamuz made to demonstrate how much he disliked playing with someone. Ectomancer's argument seems to be that because Tamuz would kill Battoussai if he were a vig, Tamuz must be scum. I must point out that this argument makes very little sense. Actions that Tamuz would take while he was a vig, would be actions taken by a pro-town character. The fact that, as a pro-town character, Tamuz would take certain actions in no way reflects upon his current alignment.

The only valid argument that would function in this scenario would be that Tamuz's willingness to take these actions as a pro-town character proves him a liability to the town even as a pro-town character, meaning that we should lynch him regardless of his alignment. This, however, is very similar to what Tamuz was suggesting in the first place, so by that argument, Ectomancer would be just as deserving of a lynch as Tamuz.

I don't neccesarily agree with Tamuz's viewpoint, and, as far as I can remember, I have never played with Battoussai in the past, so I can't say much as to Tamuz's problem with him. I haven't been terribly impressed with Tamuz's play so far in this game where he has said very little constructive and has rarely given more than a couple of lines of explanation (excluding this last debate) so I don't think he has much room to talk, but I still think that there are serious holes in Ectomancer's argument. Ectomancer has made very little attempt to show that Tamuz is scum and has primarily demonstrated that Tamuz isn't playing the way that Ectomancer thinks he should. This may be enough for Ectomancer to vote him, but I don't think it will convince many other people.

Tamuz, if you feel a strong need to drop out of this game, I won't stop you. I think, however, that the persecution you are feeling will die down quickly, and I think that it was pretty isolated in its source. If you would be willing to continue in this game, I, for one, would be happy to have you.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Whether or not you are persecuting him, I think persecution is a fair word to use to summarize the way Tamuz feels about the way he is being attacked. My address was to him, and was an attempt to get him to stay in the game, but I stand by my word choice. I chose the word not to represent the we I would I would convey the attacks, but rather to express my understanding of Tamuz's viewpoint and concerns.

As for your example, you pointed out a single game where, as scum, you did something that could be considered to be related to what Tamuz said he would do under certain circumstances. Personally, I think that the example you bring up is only vaguely related to the case Tamuz is talking about, but that doesn't deny the fact that your logic is flawed. Tamuz did not do anything. Tamuz was talking about a certain scenario in which he would do something. In that scenario, Tamuz was pro-town. Your logic that states that, because he would do something in a scenario in which he was pro-town, he must therefore be scum. This is not valid logic.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming that you don't see the illogic inherent in your post, but I'm not going to stop pointing out the problems with your logic. When I see bad logic, I will call it out.

[RangeroftheNorth]

He then went on to state that it is OK to lynch a townie if they play badly.

If he said that, please show me where. Looking over his posts, I can't find it.

When I first saw the fight, I assumed it was something minor that would pass over fairly quickly. I chose instead to comment on Rosso Carne's post. By the time I checked again, this had blown up into something far larger.

By your logic, Tamuz's beliefs would make him scum in every game. His meta-beliefs cannot make him scum in a particular game. They can make him a poor player, but, according to you, that isn't enough to lynch someone for.

In this, I would consider vigging very different from lynching. A vigilante is in the position to make calls for themself about who should live or die. With no knowledge of whether or not someone is scum, it is still within your jurisdiction to kill them. If you have a reason to believe they are pro-town, it might be a poor choice, but it is still your choice to make. No choice that a vigilante makes can make him anti-town. A vigilante can be harmful to the town, but he/she is by definition, a pro-town player. If your argument is that it would be better to lynch a vig who would kill a townie who played badly, then you are also claiming that we should lynch a pro-town player who played badly.

I don't think we should lynch townies who play badly, but I think it is perfectly reasonable to lynch any player who acts like scum. Most examples of bad play are bad play because they are far more beneficial for scum than for the town. Unless they are in some way confirmed innocent, it is fairly reasonable to be more suspicious of players who play poorly. Often, they are playing in a way that would be advantageous to the mafia, but is harmful to the town.

[RangeroftheNorth]

What? I'm very confused by your statement mozsuggs. What do you mean by saying that you are a Mafia Roleblocker? Why did you say it? You really had better clarify this in a hurry, or I think we'll have found a new lynch candidate for today.

Unvote

[RangeroftheNorth]

Apparently mozsuggs is a troll, who is more interested in finding ways to offend people than in playing mafia. This is rather unfortunate, as it degrades the quality of the game for the rest of us, but that, apparently, is his goal. Unfortunately, there is very little we can do to prevent him from acting in an offensive. Perhaps if we completely ignore him, he will get bored, and go away. Personally, I think his claim was more of a way to get attention than anything of substance, and thus the best choice would be to ignore it completely.

I didn't imply that Moz is scum. At this point, it really doesn't matter if he is town or he is scum. His play has been pro-scum and there is really nothing he can do to make himself pro-town in this game again.

You just actually said the thing that Ectomancer attacked tamuz for saying. You are claiming that we should lynch a player just based on his play style, regardless of his alignment. This is always a bad idea. We should look for someone we actually think is scum, not someone who we just think is not helping the town.

My consistent suspicions on Johoohno throughout the game, the distinct possibility that Rosso Carne actually wants to get lynched, and the fact that RC often acts in a similar manner leads me to believe that Johoohno is a better lynch than RC. I am growing more and more suspicious of Earwig for reasons I have mentioned before, and for the fact that, when people began to grow suspicious of him, he stopped posting. If he doesn't post soon, I will seriously consider voting for him.

Vote: Johoohno

[RangeroftheNorth]

I apologize for having to replaced. It was my own fault, although I did have real life stuff interfering. Nevertheless, I should have more time now to devote to this game.

Vote: Johoohno

I thought Johoohno was the right lynch for yesterday, and I still think he's the right lynch for today. Nothing I've seen so far has changed that.

I really hate the way Rosso has been playing this entire game, as I think it has been extremely detrimental to the town, and I'm very glad he's being replaced. I'm willing to give his replacement the benefit of the doubt, as I think a large part of his play has had more to do with his playstyle than his alignment.

My second choice for a lynch today would be Earwig. He has continuously been doing the bare minimum to get by. He has posted only rarely, and usually only when under pressure to do so from the entire town.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Unfortunately, it wasn't him.

[RangeroftheNorth]

A lot of times, serial killers will refrain from killing for a couple of nights in an attempt to hide their existence. The fact that RC was killed does lend itself to the possibility that it was a vigilante rather than a serial killer, but that is by no means definitive evidence one way or another.

[RangeroftheNorth]

I'm somewhat lost at this point. Rosso Carne may well have killed by a vig, but why would the mafia have targeted Earwig who was also under a fair amount of suspicion, and who might have been todays lynch? This doesn't make very much sense to me.

[RangeroftheNorth]

It's a pretty reasonable speculation at this point. It's not guaranteed that we have three scum, but it's a possibility that needs to be considered.

[RangeroftheNorth]

Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, but that doesn't deny his point. The fact that the scum haven't lynched Battousai yet doesn't in any way prove that he's scum.

[RangeroftheNorth]

One thing to consider is that, if we ask the vig/SK to out himself now, the mafia are fairly likely to kill him tonight. That makes it fairly unlikely that the SK would chose to come forward.

[RangeroftheNorth]

I will be out of town from now until Sunday. I will have very limited access during that time, and will probably not be able to post much.

[RangeroftheNorth]

I agree with Nyktorian. While the most likely scenario is the one you presented, that doesn't invalidate the possibility of other scenarios. The only indication we have that this is a mountainous game is the title, which refers to the game as

Mostly

Mountainous. That means that, while there aren't a bunch of power roles floating around, there might be one or two.

There are several possibilities for why a serial killer would not kill on a given night. They could want to hide the existence of a serial killer. They might have missed the deadline. They might only be able to kill on even numbered nights. Only having one kill doesn't preclude the existence of a serial killer.

Good luck, Mizzy.