Mini 549 (Tarhalindur Mostly Mountainous) - Game Over

[Mizzy]

Welcome, Tar! I'll be reading through in the next day or so.

[Mizzy]

Hold the phone. I read games backwards when I replace in and I see that someone has claimed mafia. What the hell?

...

*Keeps reading.*

[Mizzy]

I'm currently on page 15 of re-reading (from page one after skimming all pages backwards) and damn, I firstly want to say how amazingly

mean

this game has been. Talk about teeth-on-jugular dissing action.

My initial comments are about a few players, mainly about how I perceive them having played with them before:

Rosso Carne:

Rosso is an ass. That said, he's an ass all the time if he feels he has reason to be. His playstyle this game has been what I expected it to be and I don't get scummy vibes from him. Yet.

Johoohno:

Johoo is NOT playing like I expected him to. A few of his posts (which have already been picked apart like fresh carrion by vultures) really came off as "not right" to me. I'll be keeping an eye on him.

In other news:

I also don't like the scum-claim (even if it was a joke) by mozsuggs that just happened because it IS against the rules (good job not reading them) and I am of the opinion that anyone who scum-claims, even if it is for a laugh, is not being pro-town. However, not-pro-town != anti-town so I'll just

IGMEOY: mozsuggs

for the time being.

Jester has flipflopped on my list from possible-town to possible-scum more times than I can count. Currently tipping towards the scummy side of my list.

I've wanted to give thenextepisode a stern talking to a couple times during my reading for trying to hide behind the "Oh noes, Imma noob!" veil when really, noob or not, some things are just common sense.

I still have a couple pages to go, but I wanted to give some food for thought ahead of time with a deadline so close.

[Mizzy]

Could you be anymore up YOUR OWN ASS?

THIS is all you can say for my entire post? Why replace into a game if you're just going to add to the jackassery pool and not actually help the town? You've been here for a short time and already you've caused more problems than you can help untangle. If you ARE town, you're pulling some of the worst town-play I've seen since Adel claimed scum as town.

[Mizzy]

Looking at another game of mozsuggs, it looks like we have gotten ourselves someone who isn't claiming scum as a joke for the first time. So I really don't know what to conclude from your mafia roleblocker post.

You found other instances where he's done it? Can you share info if the games are finished? I'd be interested in looking.

[Mizzy]

Looking at another game of mozsuggs, it looks like we have gotten ourselves someone who isn't claiming scum as a joke for the first time. So I really don't know what to conclude from your mafia roleblocker post.

You found other instances where he's done it? Can you share info if the games are finished? I'd be interested in looking.

Sorry, the game where I found this information is not finished yet, so I think I may not directly point to it

Damn, no, you can't. Oh well.

I honestly don't know what to make of it either, even if he has done it before. it's a terribly anti-town thing to be doing.

[Mizzy]

Tar asked me very nicely to stay and so I will. Sorry for the trouble; I just figured it would be better if I left than to cause a scene.

I'm still not liking Johoo's play. If I were going to vote anyone, it would be him, mostly based on his, "Who we gonna lynch?" post.

FoS: Johoo

for being all antsy-pantsy.

Jester, I'll put together a list of the posts of yours that bothered me sometime today. Sorry for the delay on that.

[Mizzy]

When the thread got locked due to the modkill, I was actually in the middle of trying to post a very large post in response to you, Johoo. This was written before the end of D1:

Johoo:

Interesting that you are bringing up the same game that makes me think you might be scum in this one. Rosso is not acting any different now than he did then, and all three of us were townies. The only one I see as acting differently is you, which is why your posting bothers me so much.

I'm hardly defending Rosso, either. All I'm saying is that

in my opinion

, his play here is consistent with what I'd expect to see from him as a townie and that I don't think the case on him is very strong. I'm going to go over some of your case points in a moment, but I think you are over-reacting a lot and making some bad assumptions where it is dangerous to do so.

Also note that Mizzy (in post 532) is trying to get me lynched, and searching for others to join in, which is yet another indication of scummy behaviour.

Wait, how in the world did you come to THAT conclusion from my post? Trying to get you lynched? Searching for others to vote for you? HOW? I voiced my opinion because we have a deadline approaching and you are, so far, on the top of my scum list.

The conclusions you drew from a couple lines in a post I made are extremely reaching and very, very wrong. Your over-defensive nature coupled with an eagerness to get to night that you have shown makes me suspect you even more.

As I've said before (post 475) I strongly believe we need a lynch this first day. I'm currently voting SlySly, but am willing to swing my vote to either Mizzy or Rosso. I think that this is the way we need to work the last days before deadline to find a lynch that as many as possible believe to be scum.

Needing a lynch D1 is a given. Lynching who we think is scummiest is a given. This post of yours is a key example of attempting to look active without actually being active.

Yes, we need to choose a lynch target. That doesn't give you an excuse for blatantly trying to reach night sooner than needed. Longer days are pro-town, and the more discussion we get, the better it is.

Now on to your "case" points against Rosso and Tamuz/myself:

• Tamuz (and Dean Harper) was the first ones to post (4) only minutes after the mod started the game. That MIGHT be an indication that mafia had talked things through and sent in their confirmations waiting for the game to start. (I know it would be more valid if I also saw Dean Harper/RangeroftheNorth as a possible scum partner, which I don’t at the moment.)

Wow, talk about WIFOM at its worst. This assumption is not only a complete stretch, but the fact that posting early is even coming under suspicion here is laughable. This shouldn't even be in your "case" let alone be the first point.

• Seems to post only to appear active (post 84, 120 and 325) and sometimes it’s just about wordings (288).
• As I’ve said before he also wonders about the FoS-counts (post 94 which I talked about in post 202).

Both of the above case points are null-tells at best. Tamuz got replaced, so the fact that he was slightly inactive can be just as indicative of a busy schedule/what-have-you as it is of being scummy. You can't prove one way or the other. And since when is wondering about FoS-counts a reason to think someone is scummy? This is the first game I've seen FoSes counted in, so I wonder about it, too...it doesn't make me scummy, just curious about something I have never seen done before. Again, a null-tell.

• In post 191 RangeroftheNorth votes for me and Tamuz quickly shifts to me too (post 193 and 197) perhaps seeing me as a wagon that’ll build up quickly.
• Post 199 is a fishy post where he tries to give himself airs to avoid reading the game closely and focus on staying alive. Someone else has already said this, the point is not, for an individual townie, to stay alive (unless that would benefit the town).

Firstly, I agree with Ranger's logic, too. His post was well-written and well-thought-out and I cannot fault my predecessor for voting you. I don't like that he did so with so little content, but considering he was replaced for non-participation and inactivity, and I am not him, I can't be sure why he did it. However, I don't feel that you can contribute that to building a quick wagon.

I can also understand Tamuz's reasoning for not wanting to stand out too much. I, myself, have just gotten NKed for the 3rd time in rapid succession, and that makes it highly tempting for me to back off a bit because clearly, I am drawing too much attention. I don't like his lack of content, but again, considering that he got replaced for lack of activity, I can only see that as a small case point at best.

• He is also against a Rosso Carne lynch 249 and asks for Nyktorion and Jester’s reason for said lynch. Here I see two possible things. Perhaps he wants to lift up this issue once more with the help of two, at that time, very townish players to come to a lynch (seeing their reasons and then agreeing with them). It could also be that they are scum pairs (Rosso and Tamuz). In this game a lot of people have connected players with one another and perhaps Tamuz feels that this one will only be one among many and won’t be picked up. The last point is in that case even more shadowed by adding more bussing issues in the thread in post 266.

Since when is being against the lynch of someone you think is pro-town scummy? And since when is asking for a reason for a lynch scummy? If anything, both of those are obvtown-tells.

All in all, your case against Tamuz, and therefor myself, is shaky and empty at best. The only real points you have against Tamuz is lack of activity and content (which I am making up for) and one slightly scummy possible-wagon vote on yourself. However, that vote on you by him makes your subsequent suspicion on him rather OMGUS-ish and I know you are capable of better case building than this.

I know from playing with you before that you are not stupid and you understand what makes a strong case and what doesn't. In the game I played with you before where we were all townies, you stayed away from blatant WIFOM and OMGUS content, and focused on good logic and good scumhunting. Either you have lost your touch and have resorted to OMGUS out the butt and WIFOM for breakfast, or you are not town here.

Major Fos: Johoohno

If I don't get a good response from you as to why you find me scummy (actual strong case-points and not what's listed above, because seriously, you can do better or you can drop the bullshit) then I plan on voting for you.

[Mizzy]

(A quick note though: I'm surprised of Mizzy's unawareness of Tamuz reason for dropping out of the game according to her last post.)

I'm not a mind-reader.

[Mizzy]

I'm seriously surprised that no one looked at my wall-o-text I feel unloved.

[Mizzy]

Here's a cookie and some apple juice.

SCORE!

[Mizzy]

I truly hope that all the rest of you have gone back to said game to check for yourself to see who you believe in. I’ve earlier (post 533) said that Rosso acts differently (and said that that might be due to him being cop in that game, whereas he in this one is either scum or merely town). I also felt that Mizzy rushing to his defence is making her (and Rosso too) looking more scummy in my eyes! Once again, do check out the game yourself.

Tunnel-visioned, much? There's no proof that Rosso is scum so of course I'm not going to suspect him or anything just based on his playstyle. You have yet to show me proof. I am still waiting; I'm willing to listen to your case if you have one.

Mizzy is here interpreting my ideas in a way that fits her. I believe that she went after me because she saw me as an easy lynch and no one would have been very angry with her if I had been lynched and come up town the last day since so many believe me to be scum.

Isn't that what I just said you were doing to me? Just because you believe something doesn't mean it's true. You've done some pretty scummy things in this game and posted some questionable content. Of course I suspect you're scum.

Well, did we get a lynch day 1? Nope! I felt that we were heading that way and didn’t like that one bit. Therefore I said what I said and I still stand by it. And it is valid still, we need a lynch this day. I am not wanting to end the day prematurely but perhaps Mizzy can conjure up another mean for us to get the scum besides lynching them?

I'm gently reminding you that the post you are replying to was written before D1 ended. And of course we need lynches; I fail to see how you get out of my posting that I think we need to end the day in a way other than a lynch and I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth.

It’s in my case and it is the first point since the list is made in a chronological order (I’m sorry if I took that for granted, perhaps some of you are more accustomed to an order of importance). I don’t see it as the strongest argument, but together with the rest of the items on the list it gives some information and I put it in there to see if things like this also was noticed or important to anyone else. Since I’ve not played more than a handful games I’m still looking for angles (I’m not claiming to be a newbie, only that I don’t know all the possible takes yet).

The reason I don't accept that case point as a point is because it's a null-tell; which means it's not a town- or a scum-tell and shouldn't be used as either.

And this is where Mizzy gets even more scummy by defending her predecessor. If I were to replace someone I would really read through the game, especially my predecessors posts, to make sure I have an inkling of why he or she acted in a certain way and how other reacted to it. Did Mizzy miss the entire conflict between Tamuz/Battousai/Ectomancer on page 18 and onward? In our earlier game together I got the feeling she was a thorough and clever player, but here I get the feeling she is avoiding that part only to build a stronger case against me.

So, I'm supposed to (after carefully and thoroughly reading over my predecessor's posting, thank-you-very-much) just let you use null-tells and potentially false meta-data to attempt to lynch me? Tamuz was inactive and didn't lend much in the way of content to the game...so he was replaced. Anti-town actions like those are not auto-scum actions. He didn't really, in my eyes, do anything scummy except not help town. Which I am attempting to remedy.

Once again she seems to either be oblivious of why Tamuz left the game or to want to sweep that under the carpet for her case against me.

How should I know the real reason someone left a game? How can anyone possibly know but the person who left?

@ Everyone: It feels as if no one is really engaged to this game and that is very hurtful for the town. If anyone doesn’t want to play, ask for a replacement and leave.

This I whole-heartedly agree with. Players need to get off their asses and contribute to this game more.

I also realize that I might be a necessary sacrifice in order to get on with the game since some of you (including some of my scum suspects) are leaning towards me being scum. I won’t vote for myself (self hammering is almost always a stupid move for town) so you need to bring up enough voters to get rid of me.

I am pretty sure that Mizzy is scum. What about voting her off today and if she turns out town you can lynch me (I guess that enough of you wanting to hang me will survive the night).

I'm pretty sure (someone correct me if I am wrong) that a mislynch is bad regardless of who the player is. If you want me to think you are town, then this post of yours didn't help one bit. You're acting strangely aggressive and over-defensive

at the same time

. It's all very OMGUS of you, honestly.

[Mizzy]

I'm about to be out of town for a bit (woot for an all-expenses-paid trip for a job interview) and will be only able to post little. I'll be back Saturday!

[Mizzy]

However, the shallow content of RC's last posts shows that he should still retain the #1 spot on my scumlist.

Vote: Rosso Carne

Did you check his profile to look at his posting habits? This isn't the only game he's being sparse in.

I can't see using that as a reason to lynch someone, but I can understand, I suppose, why you would vote him. Pressure might get him to participate more.

[Mizzy]

Just because I do not find Rosso scummy does not mean that I think he is town for sure. I just can't see voting on him for what he's done because as we all know, lack of posting != scum and being an asshat != scum and he hasn't done anything I see as scummy per-say.

@ Mizzy and Battousai: Do you have any other suspects but me? (Just fretting over me will leave the scum rubbing their hands with joy, not having to do anything to win this day)

One scum at a time, my dear, one scum at a time. There's not a lot of participation going on right now for me to make a solid secondary scum-decision and even if there were, you are top of my list right now.

[Mizzy]

Without it (or something as convincing), Johoohno doesn't tip the scum scale as much as Rosso has.

I skimmed over Rosso again, seeing if I missed anything, but I don't really see much other than him being an asshat. What is the specific case against him other than acting like an ass? Because seriously, anti-town != scum.

[Mizzy]

Well, you would have to read me, and not Rosso to know what my case against Rosso is. A relevant quote would be:

@Rosso Carne - What's going on with you? After being accused of some fluff posts, you toss out an unexplained vote, and then when pressured, you can't explain the reason until after a re-read? And you will probably unvote him, erasing the first mafiascum move you have made? It makes it look like you voted him simply to make a contribution, but had no plan beyond the vote.

Additionally, Rosso was muddying the waters in a stupid argument with Ryan, where both were misunderstanding the other. Chaos and confusion are a hallmark of scum. Useless arguments are also a good way to try to avoid a lurker or fluff post label.
When that tactic didn't work, he simply disappeared.

I don't believe my case against him ever involved him being an asshat. I'd also like to know why, if you believe him to be anti-town, you would need to ask what the case against him was?

Rosso didn't post much in more than just this game during that time and even in the games he is still in, he's posting very little. In a nutshell, his posting is very very sparse all over, no more than 2 lines here and there, and there's no content in any of them, it looks like, so unless he's provably scum in ALL those games, I can't be taking that into consideration as a case point against him. If it was isolated to this game, I'd definitely count it, but it's not.

As I mentioned earlier, anti-town != scum. Anyone who's played a few games should know this, and there are players out there (Battle Mage, Adel, JDodge, Rosso) who are very, very anti-town even when they ARE town. It's their playstyle. Because I know Rosso is like that, I can't hold that against him either because he acts that way when he's town. I've seen it.

Muddying the waters can be a scumtell, yes, but it can also be a distracted-town-tell, too. It can be a noobtell, or a VI-tell, and neither of those fit this case specifically, they do serve to illustrate my point in that you need to be careful what you take as a "true" scumtell. Arguments over misunderstandings happen all the time, and between townies too, not just scum/scum scum/town.

My point is that I cannot in good faith follow a wagon based on circumstantial evidence and playstyle disputes. I want to see a real case that isn't held together by desperation.

Like I said, MANY times before, I am willing to listen to cases on anyone you guys feel is scummy, or town, as long as they are well-thought-out and based on

evidence

and not smoke and mirrors.

[Mizzy]

I would think that due to there being only one death N1, it might be a night vig or a suicide bomber. SKs kill every night usually, don't they? Correct me if I am wrong.

[Mizzy]

A lot of times, serial killers will refrain from killing for a couple of nights in an attempt to hide their existence. The fact that RC was killed does lend itself to the possibility that it was a vigilante rather than a serial killer, but that is by no means definitive evidence one way or another.

Ah alright, I didn't know if SKs had a choice or not...most of my playing experience comes from RL and not these forums.

[Mizzy]

It's a pretty reasonable speculation at this point. It's not guaranteed that we have three scum, but it's a possibility that needs to be considered.

Considering that this is a mini, then yes, we most likely have 3 scum and yes, I believe that does put us into lylo. Getting grumpy about speculation, thenextepisode, is not helpful at this point.

[Mizzy]

By the way, Jester, I would be careful with voting already... if there are three scum, we might be in LyLo already

You know... that's interesting, and likely true. I hadn't even thought of that possibility. And a few days have now passed, quite long enough for the scum to have hammered a Batt-townie and have already won the game, since I'm not scum.

I think I'll keep my vote where it is, for the time being.

That is an interesting point, actually...I need to go re-find your case on Batt to see why you're voting him...you wouldn't happen to know what post it was, do you?

[Mizzy]

There are also a few holes in this theory, though.

1) You could be scum, trying to get a townie to vote with you and then bandwagon with the other scum

2) There could be 2 scum, with another killing role (protown or anti-town)

3) The scum are waiting until your case get's a little stronger (probably nearer deadline) to vote to seem less eager.

4) One of the scum could be less active, thus making his partner(s) hold out for later.

Those are not holes in his theory, those are other theories. Big difference.

[Mizzy]

Perhaps it was a poor choice of words, but that doesn't deny his point. The fact that the scum haven't lynched Battousai yet doesn't in any way prove that he's scum.

But his theories also don't prove he's town. I think the point was just that it's safe to keep a vote there for the time being, though I'm mixed on my thoughts regarding that.

Does anyone else have any thoughts?

[Mizzy]

He didn't say it proved him town, he said it was holes in the theory that he was scum, and he is right (whether you call them other theories or not is semantics). I agree with RotN here.

I didn't say he did say that, so I'm not sure why you're jumping to someone's defense who doesn't need it.

[Mizzy]

What game are you playing to state something in that manner and then pretend it didn't mean what you said?

I was countering someone else's similar statement by basically saying it's a null-tell. It doesn't prove he's scum, no, but it doesn't prove he's town, either. The point I was trying to make was that it's something we should keep in mind, but not something we should lynch over. A topic for discussion, maybe.

[Mizzy]

I see where Mizzy is getting at. No, I wasn't saying that my last post makes me town, but it does make it kind of a null-tell of Jester's assumption. Of course I would like Jester to take his vote off, but it is his choice to make and he sure as hell thinks I'm scum (or he knows I'm not if he's scum).

Could you guys respond to post 640? Do you guys think a list like that is a good idea for town, or should I abandon it because it may help the scum more than the town?

The only problem that I see with it is that we likely have 3 scum on the loose, which means that their lists are going to be fake and we'll be looking at 7 lists total, only 4 of which are legit. It could help us to make link-ups between scum later, but that's assuming we find one fast enough to make a difference.

I'll give one, if asked, but it'll be based mainly on gut.

[Mizzy]

I was just thinking, if there are 3 scum and we are, in fact in lylo, then they probably would have lynched battousai by now. so, that leads me to two thoughs.
either jester or battousai is mafia.

Have you not been reading or paying attention at all? This was already brought up. Feel free to add to it, but it appears as though you haven't been following the game one bit.

[Mizzy]

One thing to consider is that, if we ask the vig/SK to out himself now, the mafia are fairly likely to kill him tonight. That makes it fairly unlikely that the SK would chose to come forward.

This is true, and Ecto does make a good point, but if we do try to lynch someone, we have the problem that they may try and fake-claim (or true-claim) vig/sk in order to not be lynched. Granted, a fake-claim would gain us a counter-claim and therefor a confirmed scum and pro-towner prior to a lynch, but this whole thing still worries me. I suck like that

[Mizzy]

Scum scared to join the discussion?

I think a lot of folks have mid-terms, right now, yes? It's been slow in a few of my games and folks say that's why.

The problem with both of these scenarios is what if the killer lives and kills again tonight? We can't control what an SK will do (though we might hope to guide one to do the "right thing"), but we need to talk about whether a Vig should kill tonight or not.

I have some speculations but am hesitant to share them because it has to do with what we might have, vig or sk, and what my opinions are on what they should/should not do. Would you all like to hear or should I stay hushed?

[Mizzy]

I have never played (or heard of) a Mountainous game before, so I am basing my 3-scummer thoughts on normal games. Sorry if I am wrong

[Mizzy]

I think as a rule of thumb, you shouldn't post in a game until you get the mod confirmation, just in case the replacement slot went to someone else, yes?

[Mizzy]

Well, Tarhalindur and myself had an... agreement. This is our little way of confirming the placement, whilst simultaneously getting to know our fellow players.

If the place has for some reason gone to someone else, Tar can easily delete these posts. Stop panicking!

Trust me, it's hardly panicking I'm just saying, mostly for future reference since you appear to be a new player, that you generally should wait to post. Since it's something I think that's between you and the mod on more of a friendly-terms, that makes it a bit different here, but considering we have no idea who you are, we do have to ask.

[Mizzy]

I can assure you that i am no 'new player', missy! I've been playing Mafia elsewhere for over a year. And as for you not knowing who i am, you really really should.

Again, I have no real way of knowing who you are, and your account says nothing about your identity, and honestly, I have more important things on my plate right now than worrying about who you are And it's Mizzy, please. Or Miz, that works too.

[Mizzy]

My thoughts on the matter are that we have a vig, either full or one-shot, and whoever it is thought Rosso was scum, despite the meta information. (Seriously guys, for future information, Rosso is just like that...it sucks but that's how it goes.)

I would urge the vig to not kill again, if they can, until we have a good grasp on who is scum and who isn't. The game was set back pretty badly due to the D1 modkill (we lost a lot of ground, there) and now we need to be on our toes and careful about things.

[Mizzy]

MOD:

I just went into labor, be back ASAP! It should only be 2-3 days. Wish me luck

[Mizzy]

I'm home, reading over what I missed ASAP!

[Mizzy]

This is my first mini game and mountainous game on this site, so I don't know how they work here. But where did you draw these conclusions, from your own experience or what?

Wiki Entry:

Serial Killer
From MafiaWiki

The Serial Killer is a lone killer without allegiance. The Serial Killer kills once per night, and his goal is to be the sole survivor. Frequently they are not allowed by the Game Moderator to forgo their night kill.

[Mizzy]

P.S: I still would like to know from all of you whether you would like a possible one-shot vig who killed in N2 to claim. I still support this idea.

I'm torn on the idea of a one-shot vig claiming. On one hand, if he is one-shot, then he's no longer a power role and just a normal townie-type, so claiming would be giving us a guaranteed innocent. However, since he'd be unlynchable, he'd basically be signing his own death warrant because I can't imagine the mafia would let him live. I would also love to smack him for not listening to what I said about Rosso.

[Mizzy]

Why do you see this as a potential Ecto-Tamuz scumpair?

I want to know, too, considering that Ecto has been that way to multiple people in the game and Tamuz isn't exactly here anymore...it's me, now.

[Mizzy]

I'm still waiting to see some real, concrete content from Something Awesome who replaced in 5 days ago and has only made one post as of yet.

[Mizzy]

I was really hoping to see some good content from Something Awesome...hopefully he/she/they/whatever responds to their prod soon.

Though this should be obvious, Imma say it anyway:

I am NOT a one-shot vig who killed Rosso.

[Mizzy]

Am I honestly about to lynch this guy completely by myself? Something is very wrong with this picture.

Thank you for checking in at least Mizzy, but do you have any opinion on Something Awesome aside from the need for him to respond to a prod?

Yes, actually. I had a very pro-town reading from thenextepisode, who SA replaced. That feeling stems from this post:

This makes me uneasy. Speculating about number of scum always makes me feel like its a mafia playing dumb.

I am not really sure why, but this line from him in combination with the rest of his play makes me feel pretty sure that he's pro-town. I can't imagine that a scummer would have ever said that sentence in that way when they were barely playing the game, anyway. Maybe it's just gut but I feel thenextepisode/SA is town.

[Mizzy]

I don't see how this could not also be said by scum seeing an opportunity to just post something. However, what *is* making me a bit uneasy about TNE/SA is the fact that all other people who acted "obviously" anti-town (RC, mozsuggs, Earwig) turned up vanilla.

I don't think he was all-there enough to do something like that as scum, honestly.

And I realize I'm a broken record, but I

told

you guys about Rosso; I've played with him before. As for moz, he wasn't lynched; that wasn't anyone's doing.

[Mizzy]

Pending hearing more from him, I think Battousai might not be a bad person to at least put some pressure on, because I still think the point that if he were town, he'd be dead and scum would have won already is a good one.

Also, the fact that thenextepisode made that correlation proves that he wasn't paying attention for shit and the fact that I think he did think of that himself without having read other posts makes me further think he's town. Shitty town, maybe, but town nonetheless.

FoS: Battousai

[Mizzy]

Oh hell, deadline impending.

Screw it,

Vote: Battousai

.

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, I think that case for TNE/SA's towniness is very WIFOM and those actions can fit easily into either town or scum play. Its certainly not enough to make me unvote and have a totally random lynch.

Well I did say it was gut, yes? It's still something I feel pretty strongly about.

[Mizzy]

You're willing to force a tie on this?? I do not like this plan.

This is what I was talking about when I said that people swooping in at deadline and voting would be a problem. Its forcing a bad lynch.

Because the FoS count will be used as a tiebreaker I'm gonna do my best to keep this thing on Something Awesome. I don't see the sudden case on Bat, and I don't like Mizzy forcing the lynch off of SA at the last minute.

unFoS: Battousai

Big Honkin'

FoS: Mizzy

Of COURSE I'm going to force the lynch off someone I think is pro-town. Why would I not? Is that a scummy action? Trying to save someone we have gotten zero content from as of yet and who I think is innocent?

FoS: OGML

for being opportunistic. He's not here to defend himself and yet you want him dead. Good job.

[Mizzy]

CODE RED! CODE RED! WE HAVE INCOMING WIFOM!

I already admitted that it's WIFOM but just because it's WIFOM doesn't mean it's not something that we should consider. I'm not sure if you bothered looking at the track record in this game or not, but something needs to be done, and that something should be done while considering all the options.

OMGUS ALERT!

I'd have done that whether or not you had FoSed me, honestly; you're acting scummy and I don't like it.

I call shenanigans. In fact, I call all of this last minute song and dance routine you're going through shenanigans. I warned everybody that if we didn't get activity in the last days leading up to the deadline we might have this problem, and here it is.

I don't really care what you call it. I don't like what you're trying to pull and I think we should give someone who is in the middle of being prodded/replaced a chance to come back and add some content to the game. More information = good for the town.

Your reason for voting Battousai is some crazy night kill speculation WIFOM. You accuse me of being opportunistic in trying to lynch Something Awesome, but I have had my vote on him for

four days

which gave him plenty of time to say something. You vote Battousai less than

one hour

before the deadline and think that I am scummy for attacking somebody who is not here to defend himself? Hi pot, I'm kettle. You are black like me.

Something Awesome has not responded to prods and I believe he is being replaced whereas I don't think Battousai has been prodded at all yet. Not quite the same thing, though I see the point you're attempting to make.

You are trying to stop a Something Awesome lynch based on GUT and as far as I can tell GUT ALONE. You seem to be trying to lynch Battousai in his place for similarly bunk reasons. I am not going to stand by idly while you manipulate the deadline to your scummy whims based on your gut read of an inactive player.

I am not trying to lynch Battousai, I am putting my vote where my mouth is, hoping the action will get more people off their asses in the process. And as for why I am trying to stop an SA lynch, I'm doing it for more than just gut reasons. We stand to benefit more from a replacement of him than we do a lynch.

[Mizzy]

I think SA is the better lynch for today. Yes, we do ave the comparison to RC/Earwig, but in his case, we do have something more against him than just lurking and deadline lurking.

Vote: Something Awesome

Which is what, exactly?

[Mizzy]

Which is what, exactly?

Something Awesome:

Thanks to OGML for reminding me of him. Both he and his predecessor have not been really helpful for town. The things his predecessor TNE actually said were also not really in his favor: we have the infamous posts #247 and #242. Moreover, my attention also got to the acts around BBs theory (who we know to be town now), starting on page 4, again. Looking at this again, TNE is looking really inconsistent here. Definitely still worthy of a FOS.

Neither of those posts look particularly scummy to me, and in fact, they reinforce my thought that he might be a VI pro-towner.

[Mizzy]

...

Monstrously-huge, as in "the size of my e-peen" huge,

FoS: Nyktorion

for being an opportunistic voter on SA and a giant smack-to-the-face

FoS: OGML

for calling shenanigans when I wasn't wrong.

I TOLD you guys those were town-tells. ARG. And I thought he was the vig, too, because of the post he made the next morning, but I wanted a claim out of him first. ARG.

/wrists

[Mizzy]

Actually, it doesn't require much analysis at all, does it? Had Nyktorion not placed a second vote on SA, Battousai would have been lynched instead and/or we would have gone to RPS. I find that interesting.

And remember, the scum can sacrifice one of themselves if they have to in order to frame or otherwise scummify a townie, so as WIFOM as it is, we can't immediately assume anything :/

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, honestly, your proof that those were town tells was all extremely WIFOM, as I pointed it out when you brought it up at the 11th hour yesterday. I was checking in to this thread every day going "Hey guys lets talk about this," and nothing happened until one hour before the posted deadline. The fact that you

knew

that SA was town, like you knew that rosso was town, even though everybody else was in agreement that they looked scummy looks to me like it could be because you have the inside information to know they were innocent. I went with the best case I could find when there was not very much to go on, but at least there was some real evidence behind my vote. Likewise, Nyktorion's end of day vote should really come as no surprise to you considering that shortly after I voted for SA he agreed with me and thanked me for bringing it back to his attention.

Talk about some bullshit for bullshit's sake here; I didn't KNOW he was townie, how could I? I never once said I knew he was for sure, but I did point out some elementary town-tells and tried to save him because honestly, your reasons for voting him where just as stupid. And then you OMGUS-FoS me after bitching about it yesterday that I did the same thing? Pfft, talk about hypocritical.

You whine about my fast action voting, and then excuse Nyktorion's? Again, what is

wrong

with you?

I don't consider what Nyktorion did scummy in the least.

Because you have some stellar history judging what is scummy and what isn't in this game. Right.

Mizzy and Jester, you call it scummy that we lynched SA, but hindsight is 20/20 (Jester) and apparently for some of us foresight is too.

I pointed out town-tells, told you my gut feelings, and then acted on them. The mislynch is your fault, and don't you dare take it out on anyone else. Thanks to your stellar scummy-performance, we are now in lylo.

As for my delayed reaction, need I remind you that I have a newborn to care for? I can't sit in a thread and camp it like other folks can...I post when and where I am able to and just because you want to deem it "last minute on purpose" doesn't make it so.

[Mizzy]

After reading the mafia tell list again, Mizzy seemed to fall under the last category. She complains about how bad we screwed up. The wiki says that is often a scum tell.

Except I do that all the time in games where I am town. The wiki doesn't know everything, Battousai. I'm a woman who is prone to being pissy when she's right in the end and got ignored, same way I acted when Rosso turned up town, too.

Just because SA was a vig doesn't mean he had multiple rockets to launch, anyway, so if I were you, I wouldn't be so sure that a townie got saved. SA was pro-town, remember? That's why he fired at Rosso; because he was SURE he was scum. SA's job wasn't to kill townies, it was to kill scum.

The argument that I could be scum is moronic because the guy that got lynched was town and he was going to be lynched for sure before I stuck my vote in. Why not just let it happen? You guys will call is WIFOM until you're blue in the face, but for a scum there, the better play would have been to

let the deadline happen

and allow a townie to die without getting my hands dirty. There was no need for last minute heroics to look more pro-town because I wasn't under suspicion at all, anyway.

[Mizzy]

I have to ask: what would a NykTown have done in contrast at this point?

1) You could have voted for a third party.
2) You could have asked the mod for a deadline postponement in order to have SA replaced and get a roleclaim.
3) You could have voiced your opinions and thoughts and not done anything.

Your vote, coupled with your lack of affect at the mislynch, make me pretty sure you're a good scumbet.

I feel a lot better about OGML now, maybe because he knows how to appease angry goddesses.

UnFoS: OhGodMyLife.

FoS: Battousai.

I think Battousai + Nyktorion has to be my top scumpair choice.

[Mizzy]

Mod:

I'll be going away for the weekend today and I'll be back sometime late on Sunday. Thanks!

[Mizzy]

It's been Mother's Day and a weekend so I can't imagine many folks would have been around. I am back now, though!

[Mizzy]

The point I was trying to make was that you were willing to place a vote so early that day without knowing whether or not it was LyLo.

That can either be on purpose or a mistake, and since we have no way of knowing which it is, it's a null tell. Your post feels like defense via offense and makes you look scummier in my book.

[Mizzy]

How could it be a mistake, he left the vote on for almost the entire day?

I didn't even connect the dots to it being possibly lylo that day until someone mentioned it, so I can't fault or judge anyone else on it.

[Mizzy]

Well, I like either a Battousai or a Nyktorion lynch...not sure what else to say. I don't want to vote without an okay due to lylo-ness, but that's the only reason I'm not voting.

[Mizzy]

Care to sum up your positions on them?

Well, Nyk just seems to show very little affect when it comes to being FoSed or accused...he just seems way, way too calm about the whole thing. He was the hammer on SA, which in effect saved Battousai's ass, making me think that Nyk knows something more than we do, namely Battousai's alignment.

Battousai's posting has not been consistent with what I'd consider pro-town posting from him for one, and two, I've been keeping an eye on him for a long time for some shady logic. That and Nyk out of the blue saved his ass.

[Mizzy]

This is a point I already tried to make this day: that this vote was

not

out of the blue, but that I made my preferences clear before through #725.

And yet you didn't actually vote until there was a tie, even though you thought he was pretty suspicious. We weren't in lylo then, so why did you go so long without voting? Also, according to your aforementioned #725, you even saw some points against Battousai. Your points against SA I responded to as saying they were newb-town-tells and you responded with:

However, what *is* making me a bit uneasy about TNE/SA is the fact that all other people who acted "obviously" anti-town (RC, mozsuggs, Earwig) turned up vanilla.

You've been here enough to know that anti-town != scum, so this line is bullshit coming from you. It's on the edge of WIFOM and is a shitty reason for suspecting anyone. The logic in that reads: "X person was obviously anti-town, and turned up vanilla, so person Y who is obviously pro-town I should suspect as scum." You're a better player than that.

Then you post your #743 but don't bother posting WHAT we have against him; you just feed right off of OGML's posts and vote opportunistically. It feels like you sat on the fence long enough to find an escape route before you voted and OGML miraculously gave you one.

[Mizzy]

Mod:

Sorry, Gabe is sick and he's not sleeping much right now. Please consider me on V/LA until he's feeling better and I can actually function again. Feel free to replace me if you think it's needed.

[Mizzy]

I still support a Battousai-lynch or a Nyk-lynch, and nothing I seem to have missed changes that even a little bit. I agree with OGML that Battousai is the common scum-denominator and the more he just posts the minimum required and doesn't show some real effort, the more I suspect him even on top of everything else.

I'd like to vote Battousai but I know we're in lylo and I want to make sure that the people I find as pro-town (OGML, Jester) are okay with that.

[Mizzy]

I can't really see Nykt as being scum, because if he would be scum, I can't see anything coming from saving a pro town player from a lynch. Look at how bad he's looking right now, that's not WIFOM of scum play, that's just stupid scum play.

Except that he saved YOUR ass and we have no way of knowing what alignment you really are. So you can say he saved a townie all you want, and all we can do is roll our eyes at you.

Not to mention that he killed a townie in order to "save a townie." Not that I think you're town.

[Mizzy]

Yes he did help kill a townie in order to save a townie, but he went with who he thought would be the best candidate and he thought it wasn't me.

Well, unless you're a pro-town power-role, you weren't worth keeping alive.

Can we lynch Battousai now, please?

[Mizzy]

Mizzy, what is your reasons for voting me? Don't give me pages to look up, just the cold facts of why you think I should be lynched.

The biggest most blaring reason for wanting you lynched is the common denominator theory. It's very, very true. But other than that, you aren't fighting hard enough against your lynch, you've been wishywasy, lurker-ish, and the apparent motives behind some of your actions have been muddy at best and, in my opinion, downright scummy at worst.

[Mizzy]

One question to Mizzy: I have never heard of this "common denominator theory". Is it something more generally used, which I should therefore remember, or did you just introduce the name?

Someone mentioned it before in this game, but it's basically looking at the most likely scumpairs and choosing to lynch the one party that appears the most times in the pairings. Basically:

Person A + Person B
Person B + Person C
Person D + Person B

Person B is scummy enough and has shown evidence that he could be a likely scumbuddy in each pairing, so the idea is that you would lynch him because he would be your best bet in catching scum.

[Mizzy]

....

Vote: Battousai

[Mizzy]

Ugh. See what happens when no one trusts the Mizzy?

[Mizzy]

Normally I'd trust you

This time I had treasonous intentions though.

You and me gonna have a little chat in a dark alley

[Mizzy]

Also, Mizzy, unlike in Mini 545 where we had that heated argument and both were townies, this time I was just acting mad to further my own nefarious ends

...

I wasn't acting, I was so, so pissed.

And sorry Nyk, you looked like obvscum to me, and Jester was obvtown to me only, I suppose.

[Mizzy]

Well, no, jester was obvtown to me too, but for different reasons lol

And I did feel bad getting you riled up like that but I had to ham it up or it wouldn't have been convincing. Thats just the tragic fate of the scum I suppose, making their friends angry and then killing them.

That's okay, there's a dark alley and a two-by-four with your name on it. Then we can resume the friendship