Mini 559 - Cult Mafia again - Game over

[Pink Puppy]

Hi all! I have been reading along with the game, so I sort of have a feel for it. I also am halfway through a good re-read, so I will be posting shortly.

The only thing I know for sure is that omg is overdefensive.

[Pink Puppy]

OKAY...

First, want to make a quick comment on the "omg vs. reyo" incident. The way I see it is that nobody ever misunderstood anybody else... you just have a difference of opinion. omg... did you really have to make a "scale of scumminess" in post 49?? LOL that was silly.

Norinel

- I feel is doing the minimum, which would sometimes make me suspicious, but when he does post I normally agree with the logic, and his reads of people. So I can't say I have any problem with him now.

reyo

- I think has been trying the hardest to participate and find scum. With the amount he is posting I would expect to find some little bits of scumminess is he was scum. But I can't pin anything down.

oman

hasn't been very helpful, and had to be pushed to discuss strategy (when he probably has a lot to add since he's played the cult game before).

dahen

- i generally agree with his points and haven't seen him say anything scummy. Although I would like more participation.

FoO

- has been making lurker votes and pretending to be lost -- having no read on people. That's lame. Now he's fosing oman and GW. I'd like a better explanation of that. Like maybe some quotes.

GW

- i didn't like post 183:

There is an amazing amount of bad voting going on. Why are so many of you jumping at the smallest thing? It does nothing more than make you look more suspicious.

I really dislike this post. He tells everyone they're voting badly... which you can't even know unless you know who scum is. I guess he just objects to people "jumping at the smallest thing." And I really don't like that comment, because that is the game of mafia: jumping at the smallest thing. You pick apart little things and see if they become bigger.

GW's comment here is a "stopper." It encourages people to stop posting, stop discussing. That's a prime scum tactic. Either confuse people or end discussion. Games with lurkers or low participation favor scum.

militant

was not helpful.

xtoxm

replaces and says:

Elias - I think is scum. Seems like he's making poor excuses for votes (lalaland) and as i've already said don't like the Omg case. Getting that general scum feel...

and then omg says:

Elias - This isnt an fos etc, but i agree that i do get a general vibe from your posts of manipulative scum. im not going to give a direct example because i cant think of one, but i do get a general feeling of scumminess from you and have since early on in this game.

And really neither of them have given good reasons IMO. I don't mind if they think elias is scum, but I do mind if they don't have a real reason. I doesn't have to be a big reason. It can be a small reason, explained well, and I would buy it. But this "feeling" stuff is BS. Also seems like omg is only too happy to lynch anyone but himself. This little bit with Elias goes nowhere and so Omg posts this:

Im pretty happy to kill oman or FoO instead, thoughts?

That comes out of nowhere, and is yet again, not supported with reasoning. At best, that's not helpful. At worst, scummy!

And I don't understand this wagon on GSGold. Is it just because he's lurking? Or everyone's getting tired?

[Pink Puppy]

It occurs to me I haven't commented on everyone's play. I guess that's because of lurking.

Although I haven't really commented on Elias either. I don't have too much to say about him, but I would like to hear why some people say he's scummy.

Can anyone make a case for why Elias is scum?

Can anyone make a case why GSGold is scum?

I think I brought up some stuff about GW, omg, and xtoxm. But I'm unclear about the Elias or GSGold cases.

[Pink Puppy]

I'm just saying that you tell people they are playing badly without leading the way to better play or better voting, or really contributing anything other than to say others are playing poorly. You may say you don't want people to stop discussing, but I think that is the effect that your sort of comment can have. And it's page 11 and you're not voting anyone. How are you being helpful at all? You're just telling the rest of us how bad a job we're doing. Well, thanks for helping.

And I never said that I think people should vote whoever and give no reasons. In fact I asked lots of people to give more reasons, and explain themselves better. But actually, if people jump their vote around a lot and give weak reasons, it's really not so bad because it gives us something to discuss, analyze, and hopefully catch someone.

[Pink Puppy]

omg: you haven't explained why you were voting GSGold, and now you are voting oman without any explanation.

u suck.

unvote; vote omg_im_innocent_wtf

It really troubles me that nobody can tell me why the wagon on GSGold happened. And I note that omg was the first to vote him.

[Pink Puppy]

Okay thanks for pointing me in the right direction...

So GSGOld was almost lynched because of this:

I'm keeping my vote on OMG for trying to paint Norinel as a bandwagoning scum when in fact it was a semi-random vote.

Unvote, Vote: GSGold

This was written right after i called out the 2 others for jumping on my bandwagon.

1. This looks to me like: 'Hey, Im not moving off, Im not scum'.

2. It is craplogic when thought about, particularly as I mentioned that I was in particular suspicious of Friend of Old and just included Norinel as he had done the same thing.

3. Constant lurking, and joining my bandwagon at an opportunistic time in the first place.

This is the first vote Im actually pretty happy with.

And then everyone else on the bandwagon just agrees.

Am I getting this right now?

[Pink Puppy]

Let's stop having these personal attacks/fights. Calling people childish and saying they're playing badly. It's not helping.

For my part, sorry to omg for saying he sucks. I was just frustrated.

[Pink Puppy]

Reading and analysing the game now.

BM

How's this going?

You could always post what you have so far...

[Pink Puppy]

The wiki has a good explanation ot it here: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=WIFOM

[Pink Puppy]

3) Post 148 is by no means similar to LLL. LLL was suggesting a random lynch. I was suggesting a random

wagon

. Random wagons are extremely good for town. They force players to actually take a stand, they garner information about the playrs reaction, and in general create discussion. Comparing random wagons to random lynches is really dumb, and I thought you were experiened enough to know the difference.

Is random wagonning really an accepted practice? I'm still new, so maybe I'm wrong, but I think even early in a game you can pick on something small to start a bandwagon. It shouldn't be entirely random... ever. I mean, how will a random bandwagon tell you anything? It puts pressure on the person being bandwagonned, and you can get info about that person. But isn't the person apt to attack you for random bandwagonning? And how are you supposed to analyze anything about the bandwagonners? Any attack on their behavior can be explained away by "hey, guys, it was just random, I didn't mean anything by it." So it's not helpful in a lot of ways and only serves to confuse people. It gives scum a really good place to hide, I think.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong!

BTW, I know I replaced LLL, but I would never agree to her suggestion of a random lynch. I think she was more saying that it's hard to be sure D1, and so it's a lot like a random lynch because you have less to go on than other days. I don't know if I'm right in my interpretation of her thoughts. Nor do I agree. Just wanted to make it clear that I disagree with what LLL said!

[Pink Puppy]

4) I am defending OMG adamantly because I've played with him twice before and seen lynched for weak reasons that were spurred on by bad reactions on his part. Both times he's been town.

Just because you have seen OMG play this way as town, does not mean he is town again. Have you seen him play as scum? How does he act differently? Don't players TRY to act the same way as scum and as town so they are harder to catch? I know the key word is TRY, and the reality is that it is very hard to play the same way. But I think it's weird that you are "adament" about omg being town.

Do you still believe the reasons against him are weak? And that all the hubbub is just "bad reactions" on his part?

[Pink Puppy]

Sorry but the argument that omg and elias can't be scum together is classic WIFOM.

Look at this quote about it:

In Mafia, WIFOM arguments are often a Scum tactic used to distract the Town. The scum will make an unusual play at night, which would lead to a situation that would 'clear' them (because players will think, "Why would a scum do that?"). These arguments are sometimes used by Newbies and should be avoided in favor of clearer arguments.

Elias could have made that comment about omg intentionally as an unusual play so that later it will look like "but scum wouldn't do that!"

It's just too hard to guess.

[Pink Puppy]

link me to these games please.

Mini 417
Mini 424

---

I see that he was lynched for similar behavior in the first game, but looks like he was NKed in the second game.

His behavior is shockingly similar in the first game as his behavior in this game. Emotional appeals, insulting anyone who thinks he's scummy. I think he deserved to be lynched that game. Generally making himself easy to lynch. And for a townie that's bad play. If you make yourself look scummy as a townie, you're not helping the town. Because other townies will genuinely think you're scum, and it will make it hard to catch scum on crap reasoning -- because the reasons aren't crappy.

I'm sure OMG still thinks I am retarded. But I think that he should reevaluate his play style if his behavior always gets him lynched as town. He seems to think he is always right and anyone who disagrees with him is retarded. Nobody is always right. And I don't think anyone on this site is retarded, or even of below-average intelligence.

Also and finally - I do swear that if I play any future games on here I will simplify my language from the beginning, I was unaware that things like analogies and hypothetical situations were so confusing/unknown to the general public and for the oversight I apologise.

Do you realize how condescending this statement is? Analogies and hypothetical situations are not confusing to people, and it is not why people are voting you. If you are having a problem getting lynched as town, it is not because you are smarter than everyone else.

But I also think that we can't know his alignment because of his alignment in other games. So those examples don't clear him, for me.

I also think self voting is always a bad idea. Especially when there is a lot of discussion happening and I am feeling as happy to lynch Elias as OMG at this time. IMO, the tide is swinging against Elias.

But I'm not going to unvote someone who wants to be lynched. If omg unvotes himself, I am up for lynching elias. But if omg wants to lynch himself, I say go for it.

[Pink Puppy]

1)

It shouldn't be entirely random... ever.

2)

I mean, how will a random bandwagon tell you anything? It puts pressure on the person being bandwagonned, and you can get info about that person.

3)

But isn't the person apt to attack you for random bandwagonning?

4)

And how are you supposed to analyze anything about the bandwagonners? Any attack on their behavior can be explained away by "hey, guys, it was just random, I didn't mean anything by it."

Numbered by me for answering convenience:
1) It usually isn't. Mine was for because LLL was suggesting a random lynch. It was a very small reason, but I wanted a wagon to get discussion going.
2) You dont declare a random wagon as random, usually. The person under pressure may think it is serious and his reactions will help you learn things later in the game. Also, you can archive how people act on the wagon to help later on in the game. More important is that it starts discussion. Without discussion nothing happens.
3) You don't declare it as random, and bandwagons ARE accepted behavior, at least among experienced players. So you're unlikely to be attacked.
4) The other bandwagoners may not know its random. Players might be willing to lynch for a bad reason (see: random bandwagons are in actuality for small reasons). Also, if you learn the alignment about any players involved, it tells you more about the other players involved (scum links).

^^^^^^^^^^BACKTRACKING!


First you said:

I was suggesting a random wagon. Random wagons are extremely good for town.

So I said:

I think even early in a game you can pick on something small to start a bandwagon. It shouldn't be entirely random... ever.

So you answer with:

It usually isn't. Mine was for because LLL was suggesting a random lynch. It was a very small reason, but I wanted a wagon to get discussion going.

So it isn't really random, is it? You're basically agreeing with me, and saying now that you weren't random bandwagoning. U can't have it both ways.

[Pink Puppy]

Why am I scum?

Check out my post 374, and my comments about the whole random bandwagonning thing of yours. I think that you originally supported random bandwagonning, but are not trying to say you support it but didn't do it. Backtracking. Flip Flopping. You're trying to have it both ways.

But while you are asking me, I may as well do a more detailed write-up of the ways in which I think you are scummy. You're reversed yourself a lot in this game. I don't care about reversing voting so much as I care about reversing reasoning. It's hypocritical and I think you are trying to changing your reasons to fit who you want to vote for -- which is scummy.

Examples:
1)omg's activity level first makes you think he's town, then think he's scum.

Overall, hes still pretty active so for now he seems town to me.

I understand the basic idea, and maybe defensive wasnt the right word. I dunno, you just seem like youre posting a lot more than you need to, almost like an overcompensation. I cant nail it down.

BM points this out and Elias says

NOWHERE did I say that posting frequently was a town tell in general. I said I was getting a town feel from him early on based on his high activity level. That doesnt mean that he can just post a lot the rest of the day and be town, and at a certain point overactivity seems fishy to me.

I guess I'm just wondering where this imaginary line is.

2) Most of the game Elias has been defending omg. Except for a murky period when he decides to vote omg. Let's see some of the statements:

Regardless, I said I'm not suspicious of you.

anyways, i am considering voting OMG, mainly based on his hyperactivity, and his quick response to anything anyone says. I dont know why, but it seems scummy to me. And further,

different from the two times I've played with him previously, in which he was town twice.

The overdefensiveness argument that people are making is BS by the way.

BOLDING IS MINE...

This part is the MOST TELLING to me as Elias has said most of the game how omg always plays like this and don't take him seriously. Yet in the above quote he sees omg's play as different. He's vague about how it's different. But he says it's different. TOTAL OPPOSITE. Feels to me like he got sick of defending omg and decided it would just be easier to lynch him. But he had to reverse himself entirely. And his reasoning is so bad. It's meta, and it's not even substantiated. It's just a vague meta feeling that totally goes against what he said previously and later.

And another quote when Elias says the opposite about omg's play -- saying it's different that previous games.

no, hes changed some. before he got impatient and tired of town really quickly, and basically just swore at people (this was as town).

3) A bit more on the random wagonning debate:
re:LLL

Its called a random wagon in order to create discussion.

By the way, bandwagons are good. I'll agree that the one on OMG is baseless, and a little too large for my liking right now.

Why does he have a problem with the omg wagon being "baseless" when he already said how he likes the idea of random wagons (which are baseless)?

4) Elias piles on and votes GS and then ask others for their reasons for voting GS.

Agree with the above post, but I believe GS would be better suited with a vote: GS.

Reyo and Friend of Old, why are you voting for GS (I know you didnt actually vote yet reyo)?

Elias votes GS because he agrees with somebody else's reasons (no original thinking here). Then he asks people for their reasons. Which is usually something you do when you don't understand the reasoning. And if you're voting the guy, you should know why he's scummy.

[Pink Puppy]

Just want to point out that OMG and Elias can still both be scum even if they are not scum together. One can be mafia and the other cultist. Problem solved!

Is omg going to unvote himself?

[Pink Puppy]

I couldn't believe OMG gained 2 votes in just half an hour. Not allowing people to response to a L-1 situation is something I didn't expect from an experienced player like you, norinel.

/agree

[Pink Puppy]

To me it's pretty obv that Blazerunner was the mafia kill because he made several comments/questions about a COP. And there would be no reason for a VIG to kill him. He was suspicious for lurking and suggesting no-lynch (I think he said something like that). But he's also newb, so I don't think he was a great VIG target.

Elias, on the other hand, was a wonderful VIG target. I mean, he turned up town, but I thought he looked bad yesterday, and then he and norinel put the last 2 votes on in a hurry, so I think he was a good VIG target.

Not that it really matters who killed who.

So we have now:

9 players left:

2 mafia
1 cultist
0-1 cult recruits

That leaves 5-6 pro-town roles, 2-4 of which are power roles.

Could be much worse.

I am actually glad Elias is gone because I won't waste my time today trying to lynch him. I am doing a re-read with this new info. I am particularly interested in looking at the GSGold wagon with the knowledge of certain players being town.

[Pink Puppy]

Sorry to rehash this, but I just feel there is something WRONG with this GSGold (now BM) wagon from yesterday. Let me trace the events:

1) GSGold wagon wagon starts after GSGold says:

I'm keeping my vote on OMG for trying to paint Norinel as a bandwagoning scum when in fact it was a semi-random vote.

2) OMG votes GSGold.

3) Reyo agrees with GSG, saying norinel's vote is not scummy:

First of all, I don't think Norinel's vote is scummy, it was a page one vote.

4)

Right now, GSGold and militant look the most suspicious to me. There are a few more who are looking more anti town than pro town to me right now, but the only people close st to being town in my eyes are, surprisingly, you Reyo and OMG.

Out of those two, the vote would likely go to GS, but I'm not placing it just yet.

5) Reyo reverses and finds GSG scummy:

Fos:GS
1) for lurking (4 posts so far)
2) not contributing to the discussion in his first 2 posts then suddenly got onto OMG's wagon after he was prodded.
3) The reason for keeping his vote is weak
4)Not commenting on any other players other than OMG.

6) Post 217 - Elias votes GSGold
7) Post 221 - Foo votes GSGold

8) Reyo attacks FOO for his voting pattern and then votes GSGold, who FOO just voted.

Fos : Friend of Old

Your voting pattern in scummy. Saying no one is using any logic in the game and therefore not adding anything to the discussion is a scummy way to hide. You are making yourself hard to be read. Do you realize that its already past noon and what you've been doing is jumping onto wagons without adding sound reasons?

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello toshiro, what do you think about the game so far.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

For the moment,

Vote: GS

since lalaland seems to be a newbie going to drop out so there's not much point if she's going to be replaced soon, like militant.

9) Blazerunner 239 - votes GSGold

10)

GS: speak up, you're on L-2

11) Reyo attacks FOO's behavior again, while he votes the same person as FOO.

OK FOD, I'm not buying your reasons behind your behaviour.

12)This I believe begins the decline of the GSGold wagon:

If you aren't buying it, why aren't you voting? Is the current topic of discussion less important than the fifth vote on a lurker wagon?

My vote is on GS.

I think my words sort of got twisted around... why aren't you voting FoO? GSGold's primarily a lurker who'll get unvoted once he gets replaced; the OMG vote could be something, but is it more interesting than someone we can actually discuss now?

Because GsGold isn't there to discuss, people just move on. Which is sorta weird since the bandwagon was big.

Voted GSGold (now BM, alignment unknown):
OMG (town), Elias (town), Foo (?), Reyo (?), Blazerunner (town)

CONCLUSIONS:
:arrow: Reyo's behavior on this wagon is really shady, from seeming like he would disagree with this wagon, then jumping on it, then attacking FOO for jumping on it.

:arrow: Wagon starts when GSGold defends Norinel. Wagon ends when Norinel defends GSGold.

NOTE: Oman (208, 211) and Dahen (202) stay off GSGold wagon, saying they agree with his read on OMG.

[Pink Puppy]

The main reason for voting GSGold was this statement:

I'm keeping my vote on OMG for trying to paint Norinel as a bandwagoning scum when in fact it was a semi-random vote.

If you think Norinel's vote was not scummy, then you agree with GSGold.

So I would think you would NOT jump on his bandwagon.

But you do. You site lurking and

3) The reason for keeping his vote [on omg] is weak

But I thought you agree with GSGold about his vote on OMG? You said you don't find Norinel's vote scummy, and neither does GSGold.

Also, I think you can definitely find someone scummy who is on a bandwagon with you. But I wouldn't expect you to keep pushing the wagon if you have doubts about other players on the wagon. I would expect you to get off the wagon if you have doubts about the other players pushing.

[Pink Puppy]

:arrow: Wagon starts when GSGold defends Norinel. Wagon ends when Norinel defends GSGold.

Sorry, I don't quite get the meaning of this. Do you mean you think norinel and GS are connected?

Maybe. I just think it's a possibility.

[Pink Puppy]

There has been much discussion about town power roles...Notice also that the scum have a power role. How about some ideas on that? Is it just a GF, what kind of things might we expect from it?

The rules say a mafia power role is POSSIBLE. Not that we definitely have one.

Why are you assuming we have one?

[Pink Puppy]

The Setup

(also mostly ripped off from Guardian)

The game is a mostly open setup. There are exactly 3 different factions in this game: a Cult (one person to start),

a 2 man Mafia team (possibly with power roles)

, and a T (with 2-4 poweroles).

[Pink Puppy]

As far as the mafia power role things goes, don't all the standard ones only mess around with the town power roles anyway? (GF only makes a difference if there's a cop/vig, roleblocker only interferes with power roles, framer makes life harder for the cop) With only a handful of town roles total, and none of them outed yet except the vig, I don't see why speculation does much good. It'd probably just do more to expose the power roles.

True, I don't see what speculating on mafia power roles can accomplish. Nothing good for town.

Good things for mafia though, xToxm.

[Pink Puppy]

Then what was your point in asking? What did you hope to accomplish?

[Pink Puppy]

As far as the mafia power role things goes, don't all the standard ones only mess around with the town power roles anyway? (GF only makes a difference if there's a cop/vig, roleblocker only interferes with power roles, framer makes life harder for the cop) With only a handful of town roles total, and none of them outed yet except the vig, I don't see why speculation does much good. It'd probably just do more to expose the power roles.

True, I don't see what speculating on mafia power roles can accomplish. Nothing good for town.

Good things for mafia though, xToxm.

wait. what?

How does discussing mafia power roles benefit the mafia? 0.o

BM

In the way of outing pro-town power roles through clues someone might drop in discussion.

Do you think discussion potential power roles can benefit town? I mean, I'm happy to be proven wrong....

[Pink Puppy]

Okay, if we look at this at face value (the vig will kill Xtom tonight if he is fakeclaiming) and say that Xtom is a powerrole, he is NOT CULT. This is big, we have one guarenteed non-cultist. Meaning that even though vig is a dicey role in this game (I know I was the vig last game).

I say we are at a very interesting decision here.

let 1 townpowerrole = doc:

Let Xtoxm = Vigilantee -> obviously protecting him from night kills is the best move as we have a confirmed townie with no cult-ableness.

Let Xtoxm = Scum -> obviously the vig will try to kill him, but the doc should protect him (see Xtoxm = vigilantee).

Thus, I think that contrary to standard vig play any vigilantee should counterclaim now, if not, we should accept that Xtoxm IS town.

Good thinking. Unless we don't have a doc. Is that possible/probable?

[Pink Puppy]

You started it!

[Pink Puppy]

That's what I'm saying.

[Pink Puppy]

Okay so I guess we're going with this idea.

I am not the vig.

I thought I'd claim that now because I prob can't post until Sunday at the earliest and didn't want to hold anything up. (The bachelorette party weekend begins )

[Pink Puppy]

What does LoS mean?

[Pink Puppy]

His general inattentiveness makes me believe that he's town.

O rly?

I'm just curious. I'm not saying I think you're wrong. Do you find that more often inattentive players are townies not paying attention, or scum trying to skate by unnoticed?

This question is open to all!

I am torn because I don't want to lynch someone just for being a lurker. But I would hate to lose to lurker scum. I would much rather lose to active scum that legitimately outsmarted me.

[Pink Puppy]

BM, I don't understand what you mean there, could you try to explain better?

Why to you think Reyo is scum?

I personally find him very town.

Let me tell u a story.

Player A is protown.
Player A makes an analysis.
Everyone in the town thinks that Player A is probably protown.
Player B is scum.
Player B doesnt especially want to eliminate a potential mislynch, so he argues against the decision of the town.

Its only a scenario, but ive done it on numerous occassions as scum. As such, i consider it a pretty reliable scumtell.

BM

I agree that that is a frequent scum reaction -- the more people you either confirm as town or express that you think they are townish -- the harder it is for you to hide and get somebody else lynched.

But I don't think your reasoning for confirming dahen as pro-town is that compelling that reyo has to agree or else is scum.

[Pink Puppy]

Maybe because a lot of people have said they think reyo is town?

[Pink Puppy]

Aren't we accepting xtoxm is the vig... and thus NOT scum?

[Pink Puppy]

Well, I'm still here!

The thing that sticks in my head about Norinel is how he said

I suppose he is right that his lynch will give us a place to start tomorrow, but let's not forget that even if he does come up townie, each of the rest of us has just as much of a functioning confirmed pro-town brain as he does.

unvote: GW, vote: OMG makes a hammer.

I did think the last two votes in half an hour was pretty suspicious. But aside from that and the fact that Norinel was hammering, I just don't like how he says "Let's remember that anyone who lynched OMG is probably town because he's acting like this." The fact that he wants to get that in before his vote, it's like he already knows OMG is town... and don't hold him (or other scum) responsible.

And nowhere have I seen Norinel scumhunting hardcore today because "the OMG lynch gave so much info." How much info can it really give if it was townish to vote him?

Anybody else agree?

I also think FOO is maybe scum, but too tired to look back at his posts to say why exactly.

[Pink Puppy]

About FOO, I just remember how he had to be pushed to participate early on yesterday, and was like "Hmm I just don't know... we have nothing to go on."

I don't know why, but I always think people who say "Man, I just don't know what's going on!" are scummy. Sort of like scum scared to stick their neck out too far. But I guess it could just be a newbie thing. I mean, in all honesty, I normally do feel lost but I try not to say it because that's unhelpful.

[Pink Puppy]

And has anyone else noticed that all Friend of Olds suspects are pretty much based on lurking?

BM

Also notice his top suspect is dahen.

[Pink Puppy]

Even though his top suspect is dahen, and you already made this big deal about confirming dahen and everybody who thinks dahen is scum must be scum?

[Pink Puppy]

Glad you're back. I called you out in 537, but knew you were away. Now we can hash it out.

[Pink Puppy]

As far as the people who are still alive who had a hand in that, PP's the one who worries me the most. Her points are good overall, but it seems like she's been driving the town around quite a bit with her choice of targets and stuff, especially with OMG gone. That's a bad thing if she's scum, but the best way to figure that out is to figure out if the directions she's been pushing are worthwhile, which is hard to tell in the early game. The one thing we know for sure is that Elias wasn't a good direction.

And how was I supposed to know Elias was a "bad direction"? BEsides, I don't remember xtoxm saying it was my suspicions that caused him to vig elias. I think he would have vigged elias anyway. I'm not saying that was a bad move -- but I didn't do it.

I've been throwing out a lot of stuff this game, some of it people seem to really support, and some of it people never answer (like the GSG wagon stuff). I'm scumhunting. If you would rather me say nothing, that's pretty anti-town.

On the other hand, Norinel, I think your play has been more watching us play and commenting, than actually playing. Which... is scummy.

[Pink Puppy]

I'm here again and will continue my catch up today. From what I scanned through on the last page it seems like interesting things are starting to happen.

This is getting really annoying.

[Pink Puppy]

And how was I supposed to know Elias was a "bad direction"?

If you're anti-town, particularly mafia, then you'd know that Elias at least wasn't in your faction, and have more general info as to figuring out what his role is. (Plus, of course, you'd know that lynching him would help you regardless of Elias' actual alignment)

Thanks for proving my point.

You're assuming I am anti-town to prove I am anti-town. Your assumption is not evidence.

On the other hand, Norinel, I think your play has been more watching us play and commenting, than actually playing. Which... is scummy.

What would you consider actually playing? If it's aggressive scumhunting, I've already mentioned that that's not something I often do unless I get a strong scent. Some people need to be shaking the thread, and some people need to be poking at it.

Well, it could be a difference in play styles. But I'm usually suspicious of your type of play style and think it has a high probability of being scum.

[Pink Puppy]

I'm starting to think Oman is the play.

[Pink Puppy]

That would be funny.

[Pink Puppy]

I'm starting to think Oman is the play.

Then vote for him.

L-4 isn't exactly dangerous.

I'm just thinking of mafia and cult members out there piling on.

[Pink Puppy]

o thats true. but what if i'm wrong?

[Pink Puppy]

But we're essentially only voting oman for lurking. Is that enough?

[Pink Puppy]

Wait a second, if I was mafia/cult, I would not be worried about oman being quicklynched. I would welcome it. So don't be that suspicious.

[Pink Puppy]

Mod can we have some Oman prod action?

[Pink Puppy]

Wait a second, if I was mafia/cult, I would not be worried about oman being quicklynched. I would welcome it. So don't be that suspicious.

Hmm, maybe. I take your point.

I mean, unless he's my scum partner and I don't wanna buss him. But then I don't think I would even say I thought he was the play for today. I dunno. Probably I'm acting stupid.

[Pink Puppy]

I want to know why doesn't BM want us to vote Oman?

vote Norinel

[Pink Puppy]

Actually, I haven't been ignoring prods. In a few games (so that it wasn't alignment based) I've been trying to try out lurking as people seem to think LAL is wrong. So I'm trying to get perspective. Unfortunatly, my findings aren't really ready, but I just don't feel right doing it any more.

Sorry.

unvote; vote Oman

[Pink Puppy]

Norinel:

Why are you pointing me out particularly? and what do you mean by "mafia's more likely than cult"?

That was in reference to PP- if she's anti-town, I think she's more likely to be mafia than cult, so we can wait on lynching her. (Whereas we can't really wait if we have a good suspect for the cult recruiter)

I don't know how you can discren who may be mafia from who may be cult. Seems pretty impossible to me.

[Pink Puppy]

I wish I could vote Norinel at the same time as Oman.

[Pink Puppy]

I think a week is enough.

[Pink Puppy]

Whats the point of the claim?

He trying to WIFOM as much as possible and didn't he also say that claiming is broken in this game?

[Pink Puppy]

unvote; vote Friend of Old

Please bandwagon.

[Pink Puppy]

I wish I could vote Norinel at the same time as Oman.

Up to now, I just wanted to make sure everyone else realized that being literate doesn't make you town. Now I'm starting to think there's a good chance you're scum- it almost seems like you feel threatened by me for some reason, and the most obvious reason is that I'm the only one who hasn't written you off as obviously pro-town.

Strong FOS: PP

, which would probably be a vote change otherwise, but I'm not going to further spread out votes with a deadline upcoming.

Norinel, I am not threatened by you suspecting me. I object to your playstyle, reasoning, and you not addressing my problems with you.

Did you ever respond to how you used your assumption that I am anti-town to prove that I am anti-town?

[Pink Puppy]

Norinel, I am not threatened by you suspecting me. I object to your playstyle, reasoning, and you not addressing my problems with you.

Style I can't change without a significant increase in the time I can dedicate to Mafia. Reasoning and addressing your problems I can work on.

This made me like you a lot more.

SO...

Do we still want to lynch Oman? Because I would also be up for FoO.

[Pink Puppy]

I will be VLA friday and Saturday, back on Sunday.

[Pink Puppy]

Mod, would an extension be possible so that we can get out of this absurd situation?

The absurd situation being that we are voting you?

[Pink Puppy]

Good shooting though xtoxm.

I don't know if Norinel is mafia or cult, but I do think he should be lynched. I want to hear from Imat though too, so I won't vote yet.

[Pink Puppy]

So GW was recruited N1.

If there is another cult recruit, they were recruited last night.

We have a better chance of finding the cult recruiter (looking who might have been tied to GW), or finding FoO's partner.

I am tempted to say FoO's partner is xreyox(Imat) because early in the game when FoO wasn't being helpful, reyo was the one who got him talking, sort of pressuring him but not voting him. I haven't looked back though. This is just off what I remember.

I am also tempted to say Norinel is the cult recruiter... only because I feel Imat is the scum partner, and I am still suspicious of Norinel. Although Norinel's last post was a good one, and insightful, I think. I will have to go back and look at how different people interacted with GW, to have a better idea of this.

[Pink Puppy]

Please think about who might be cult recruiter before we end this day. It's pretty important we lynch cult recruiter today or xtoxm vigs him tonight.

[Pink Puppy]

Just want to bring up this post from yesterday:

I don't entirely follow the case for FoO being scum, but I could be convinced.

[Pink Puppy]

Also want to bump this post from BM about how reyo is scummy. I think it explains some stuff for people who are unclear.

Reply to Norinel:

I don't think he was breadcrumbing he is a doc. He has made it clear that he would claim something random. There is no telling what he is claiming is true or fake. I just don't see why he is doing it now. Both uneccassery and confusing. I don't know.

he has clearly breadcrumbed doc. Whether it is true or not is questionable, but you cant refute the FACTS. You just want to see a power-role lynch today.

xtoxm. I hate you for being the vig. I wish I can just do this bizzare "I want him lynched now" thing and not worry about anything. I guess if I do that, the scums or cult or whoever whatever are just going to get me lynched.

confessed concerned about the presence of a Vig-meaning that he is worried about being targetted, and is trying to butt-kiss.

BM

And this one is good too:

I'd say Oman and FoO stands equally at the moment. I'll need to read again >_<

If we mislynch again today, we'll start with a really bad position tmr.

The worst case scenario would be 1 town left and that would be xtoxm.

the above post doesnt make sense. An explanation should be forecoming. Also interesting that ur top 2 suspects are the two most protown looking players in the game...

BM

I have a question with this one though:

I'd say Oman and FoO stands equally at the moment. I'll need to read again >_<

If we mislynch again today, we'll start with a really bad position tmr.

The worst case scenario would be 1 town left and that would be xtoxm.

the above post doesnt make sense. An explanation should be forecoming. Also interesting that ur top 2 suspects are the two most protown looking players in the game...

BM

You really thought FoO was one of the most protown players?? So why did you lynch him later?

[Pink Puppy]

Oops I messed up by quoteing the same post twice.
First and third quotes are the ones I meant to quote and the second quote should be this one:

XReyoX, why would you lynch me?

Because I don't have a reason not to.

0.o

You think this guy is town!?

[Pink Puppy]

xtoxm - My top suspects are Norinel and reyo. Which is which, I'm not sure yet. But I think the above post, where reyo says he wants to lynch Oman because he "doesn't have a reason not to" is REALLY BAD. Townies don't say that stuff. It's like last ditch scum reason to keep trying to lynch someone you think is powerrole.

[Pink Puppy]

Which reminds me, why has no-one else commented on the timing of Xreyox backing out? When FoO-scum died. Coincidence?

BM

reyo asked to be replaced during the end of last day. Not during the night. Imat seems to be found during the night as CKD posted when replacement was found.

I don't know if it's a coincidence, but I did a meta on reyo. He's still playing in some mish-mash game, but did back out of another mini at the same time with the same excuse he gave here -- real life problems. So... yeah, it could be a coincidence.

[Pink Puppy]

Look, I still think reyo/imat is scum from the stuff BM posted yesterday, but I don't want to make a mistake, so I gotta put this out there:

BM...Got anything useful?

Erm not as such. The Cop-claim was a gambit, which didnt really work, although in a sense it did...

Although i am a little confused. Why would the scum, with 3 claimed power roles, decide to NK someone completely different? I mean, what circumstance could possibly facilitate that?
A Cop, Vig and Doc are a pretty strong set, and even with 1 of those claims as bogus, its still hard to see neither of the other two being killed. Now Xtoxm is totally confirmed, and i know im town. That leaves Oman, who im slightly more suspicious of now. Its possible that he chose to kill someone else, because killing a power role would spark some doubt about his claim.

THAT IS unless

someone hadnt read the game

.

I'm looking at Imat here, who's first post of the game is not overly-convincing.

Vote: Imat

I think we've found our last mafia member.

BM

Again, I ask for a day, and you give me nothing. I thank you BM for your incredible Hunting prowess. Unfortunately you failed to notice one minor detail. Rey asked to be replaced during the night. So, even if Rey/I had a night ability, Rey had the chance to give any choice before leaving.

So saying I'm Scum because there weren't two kills and I hadn't read yet is ridiculous, much worse than your usual ability.

I'll continue a certain line of thought later, after I finish reading, to make sure I get all of the information at my disposal correct.

Does anyone think this underlined part demonstrates a lack of knowledge of NK's?

[Pink Puppy]

So sorry. Please delete that person... Pretend that I said it.

[Pink Puppy]

For Dahen, who can't be bothered to select reyo's posts and reread them:

Not too sure about Friend of old though, the timing for the vote and unvote when the wagon wasn't going anywhere is a bit suspicious. I'll decide after his response on this.

Fos : Friend of Old

Your voting pattern in scummy. Saying no one is using any logic in the game and therefore not adding anything to the discussion is a scummy way to hide. You are making yourself hard to be read. Do you realize that its already past noon and what you've been doing is jumping onto wagons without adding sound reasons?

FOD: I'm afraid I'll have to say that you're close to useless if all you do is jumping onto wagons to pressure people without adding extra content to the discussion.

OK FOD, I'm not buying your reasons behind your behaviour.

Firstly, as toshiro has said, 9 pages and you couldn't find anything useful to comment on is ridiculous.

secondly, think about it. If everyone follow what you're doing, we'll all be sitting around, waiting for a wagon to show up. You're voting purely for the sake of bandwagoning.

Thirdly, you are what I considered as active-lurking, posting enough just so that no one call you out for lurking, but not contributing to the discussion.

In addition to that you are saying none of the discussion is useful and that is just not true. We might not have gotten a wealth of information from it but its obvious better than nothing. You currently struck me as a scum trying to dampen down the discussion or a very bad town who doesn't know how to play.

And what do you mean by genuine scumminess? If you're waiting for someone to yell out" I'm scum, vote meeeee!!!", then I guess you'll have to play till you're REALLY OLD to see that.

FOO just started to get more active and I made an fos against him on the same post I vote GS. I think that was all I need to get him posting.

Since I've fos GS before I placed my vote on him which didn't do anything and the fact that the wagon is building up, I believed my vote best go to him.

I usually fos people first and wait to see if I could get the answer I want before voting them. It let other people to know where I'm going at the same time as well which I think should be a bad thing. I find people who go "Wah... This is a scumtell! Vote: You straight away " quite scummy, so I don't do it usually.

FOO: Thanks for the effort. It is going to take me some time to digest your post though. But before I'm off, just wanna point out that GW's posts have constantly been sending me scummy vibes. I've tried re-re-rereading his posts numerous times but I couldn't nail down whats so scummy. After spending an hour or so just reading his 10 odd posts, I realized that it was his avatar (not joking). His posts don't alarm me when I'm not looking at it. It really creeped me out like hell, but its probably my brain messing up (as usual). gah....

Fos: FOO

for this

I'll be glad to be rid of you no matter the outcome.

Unvote, Vote: OMG

FOO: I personally think oman is getting protown for what he has suggested lately.

#449 and #472

GW:

Why is Foo scum and why is pinkpuppy town?

I'm not sure about FoO. His posts.... I'd say they're well "crafted".... Its a feeling and i don't have anything that is a good indication of he is scum. Its like when you say "hm.... really?", re-read the post then say"hm... he's probably right"...something like that.
So no, I don't think he is scum at the moment, however i think he should post a more detailed case against oman.

Pink puppy:

I don't feel it that way, I think FoO knows what's going on. His posts are more like a recap of what the town is doing, rather than trying to find scum.

FOO reads the thread, put a case together, place his vote, then thats it. He only comes in onces in a while to stay in the game or when someone questioned him. It seems like he lacks the will to interrogate his suspects and that is strange because it means he didn't care whether his suspects are really scum. His OMGUS vote on OMG yesterday adds to that.

I just wanted OMG out really, his attitude was annoying and he had to use several posts instead of poting just one long one.

Annoying attitude =/= scum
Using several posts instead of one long one =/=scum
Thus your vote is based on OMGUS.

FoO's LoS is rubbish. Basicly, he could have summarized it into:

Town-People who are active.
Scum-People who post little.

He is not trying to catch scum at tall.

I'll grant you it is not the most detailed and most certainly not the most accurate LoS ever made, but don't you think there is a reason that an active person seems more townish than a lurker?

Yes, an active person can seem more townish but that is not the only thing. You seems to look at how much someone posts to determine whether he is town only.

If you were to do an LoS right now, how different would it be, just out of interest?

I don't know tbh. I don't keep a LoS. Even if I do make a list, I don't usually post it unless someone wants one. I always feel like the scum can make use of it.

Okay, I'll admit that I'm not going out of my way to scumhunt right now, but neither are you Reyo, nobody is right now.

I don't think thats true. I've asked questions and I'm waiting for responses. Although the stuffs I've pointed out aren't major scumtells, I believe the answers can move the game forward. "Nobody is scumhunting right now" <-- is not true either.

FoS: FoO

Please note that these posts are in the correct order of oldest first. And note how Reyo foses Foo many times but never votes him.

[Pink Puppy]

I am not lazy

I know, you've been such an active part of this game.

The sheer number of times Reyo posts and accuses FoO, yet never votes, is pretty convincing. I'm not going to hold your hand through it any more than I already have. Make up your own mind.

As for your other question -- do I think BM and reyo are town? I think reyo is scum and I think BM is probably town.

[Pink Puppy]

I will probably vote Imat pretty soon. A few things I want to think about before I do, so I don't want to rush the end of day.

[Pink Puppy]

Mostly because he is the one I am most sure is scum.

I would LIKE to get the CR today, but I would rather go for the one I am most sure is scum, even if that person is likely mafia.

And the cult can't win unless they find townies, and there may not even be that many left. I have to think about the numbers if it's even possible for them considering how many power roles we have. That is what I want to think about before actually lynching Imat.

[Pink Puppy]

I think Norinel is the CR. Some of my reasons I would like to keep secret, as they have to do with who I think/know has PRs. I will give them later if everyone agrees that my other reasons (to follow) are convincing enough to assume I am on the right track here. If I am not, I would not want to comment further.

Looking back at Norinel's posts I think he perpetuated the problems with OMG, and he also hammered at the end of day in a suspicious way (I have already commented about how I think his hammer was weird).

My vote for dahen came with a specific condition that hasn't been met yet; other than that, GW'd be at the top of my list. I said it a while back, but the little things he says keep rubbing me the wrong way, most recently:

second would be Oman, for the simple fact that when you do post, I can never read you.

Which is a slightly better reason than just for lurking, but the rest of the town isn't going to buy it. So unless you actually did vote him (or dahen, for that matter), you're still not getting us anywhere, and that seems to be the town's biggest problem at the moment.

Now, I could be wrong here because Norinel does say he's suspicious of GW, but I think this post is pushing GW to vote dahen (the person Norinel is voting for at that time). It seems to me like coaching GW. It is hidden behind saying he's also suspicious of GW, but notice how he never voted GW. I think that is Norinel's way of hiding how he directs GW's vote.

And please note, in the next post, GW VOTES DAHEN. It was like Norinel gave advice and GW followed his directions. The post numbers are 622 and 623 if anyone wants to look for themselves.

I also am wondering what Norinel meant when he said to me:

Being literate doesn't make you town

Also, Norinel said:

Imat claimed no power

I don't really know where he claimed no power, or how it is at all townish to point this out.

[Pink Puppy]

Please stop fighting boys.

PP, is it worth risking losing the game automatically in order to take a shot at the CR, when the far safer option of killing confirmed scum is available?
Not saying your wrong obv, but i think you're shooting at the wrong target.

BM

Help me with the numbers here...

Scenario 1: CR lynched today, mafia kills tonight
Tomorrow: 1 mafia, 0-1 culted, 3-4 town

Scenario 2: Townie lynched today, mafia kills tonight, CR recruits
Tomorrow: 1 mafia, 1 CR, 0-2 culted, 1-3 town

Scenario 3: Mafia lynched today, no kill tonight, CR recruits
Tomorrow: 1 CR, 0-2 culted, 3-5 town

It does look like lynching mafia (Imat) is the way to go here.

[Pink Puppy]

Even factoring in PRs?

[Pink Puppy]

Because with mafia gone, no power roles can die. And they can't be recruited either.

[Pink Puppy]

Please don't vig BM tonight.

[Pink Puppy]

If Norinel recruited anyone last night, it was dahen.

[Pink Puppy]

I think you still have shots left. I think you're lying about that.

[Pink Puppy]

BM... can you comment on my 3 scenarios and if I am missing something. xtoxm seems to think my scenarios mean we should lynch the CR. Please help.

If we lynch the mafia goon (Imat) I want the chance to post something before we go to night.

[Pink Puppy]

I can guess what it is you're going to say.
BM

No you can't!

[Pink Puppy]

I didn't realize the cult could communicate during the day...

On another note:
Oman, I do plan on voting eventually.

[Pink Puppy]

Well the CR has more of a chance of failing to recruit than the mafia has of failing to kill.

I think that's the reasoning.

[Pink Puppy]

Who do you think the CR is?

Please do not say BM. I don't think it's BM.

[Pink Puppy]

In what universe would it be useful for a CR to fake claim cop? (Which is what BM did).

[Pink Puppy]

Claiming cop draws the NK from mafia, if not from you. BM should be dead today. Only reason BM is not dead is that BM is mafia, or Imat is mafia and didn't read the thread.

[Pink Puppy]

I know. But he couldn't be sure of protection or that we even have a doc. It's a gamble for BM if he's CR.

[Pink Puppy]

I'd be willing to vote, it'd probably now go to Imat. I think lynching someone we're pretty sure is the last goon isn't a good idea, but I think that there's a good enough chance of Imat being CR to be worth it.

Could you pony up some proof about Imat being CR? You're just throwing that out there with not even a vague idea of why you think that's true.

[Pink Puppy]

I think Oman is my alternate suspect for scum (third behind Imat and Norinel).

[Pink Puppy]

Norinel, I don't need you to quote a billion things, but I do want you to explain your statements if you say something like -- "this guy is the CR."

For me, the main reason I think Imat is mafia is because Reyo made SO MANY statements against FoO but never voted him.

I am having second thoughts on Imat only because he seems so hopelessly confused about what is going on. In a way that I don't think is faked. I guess mafia can be confused too...

But I think for me the main thing about Imat is reyo's soft attacks on FoO that read more like coaching, and encouragement to play more town-like, and that reyo never votes FoO.

[Pink Puppy]

Obviously we are all a bit confused. See, not to insult anyone's intelligence...You know what? No, I'm not going to reveal my plan because its sufficiently obvious to anybody who knows anything about this game. If you don't understand, too bad for you. If you're Mafia and don't understand, just go with the flow, we need to eliminate the Cult now if either side wants to win.

What is your plan? Is this it:

And finally, still looking for that Mafia claim. Remember, the Cult has a high chance of winning this thing if we don't work together to kill them off. A claim is in both our best interests.

That someone should claim mafia, and then we will work with them to eliminate the cult??

YEAH. Mafia: please claim.

[Pink Puppy]

I'm back

Bah~

---

I've been replaced

Bah~

---

I'll shut up

Bah~

You asked to be replaced... wtf?

[Pink Puppy]

I'd like that actually.

[Pink Puppy]

vote dahen

[Pink Puppy]

Looks like day is almost over...

I would like to make my claim.

I am a townie; no power role; open for recruitment

I will probably vote Imat soon. But I wanted to claim in case day ended.

[Pink Puppy]

I was not expecting that.

[Pink Puppy]

I was not playing to get recruited.

[Pink Puppy]

Do you not see how claiming that raises a lot of WIFOM questions?

Maybe I'm lying and trying to draw the recruitment knowing it will fail. So Cult doesn't know if they should waste their time trying to recruit me.

Maybe I'm telling the truth but now that I have said it everyone will be looking to lynch me in future, so that makes me less than ideal cult member.

Plus, if I draw the NK, that keeps one of the PR's alive, and takes away a potential recruit for the cult.

Don't you see that my dying helped you?

How would the game have played out if xtoxm or oman, or dahen had died instead of me?