Mini 622 - Mind Screw Mafia - Das ist alles!

[Macavenger]

There is no random vote.

Ok, some notes, since we really do need to work out a few things about the setup here:

From the FAQ being tagged as about Tarhalindur Mostly Mountainous, combined with the reference to Pascal's Wager, I'm thinking good practice would be to assume that the basic ruleset is similar, or possibly identical too, TMM. At least, we should be playing as if it is. Clearly, there are further rules on top of that. A couple specific things from the TMM ruleset that seem worht pointing out:

<6a> In a Normal game, the FoS count will have no effect on the game other than breaking voting ties at deadline. Theme games make no such guarantee.
<9> Each game day will begin with negotiable deadlines in place. Day 1 will begin with a four-week deadline, while all other days will begin with a two-week deadline. At the end of each week, if I find the activity level in the game acceptable and the week does not end with the deadline, then I will extend the deadline by one week, to a maximum of twice the original deadline (a maximum of 8 weeks for Day 1 and 4 weeks thereafter); the maximum deadlines are not retractable.

We can probably pretty safely assume that FoSs do have some significant game effect here. Assuming we have 4 weeks until deadline is probably less safe, but not a terrible starting point.

FoS: Korts
FoS: Batousai

Partly to test multiple FoSing, partly because I don't care for them trying to get information about other people's role PMs right off the bat.

[Macavenger]

Korts -> MafiaSSK
Battousai -> Yosarian2
Jenter Brocliani -> Musher333
remussaidow -> Macavenger
MafiaSSK -> Battousai
Musher333 -> iamausername
Macavenger -> ???
Cavebear with a toothache -> ???
Jex -> ???
Nocmen -> ???
Yosarian2 -> Jenter Brocliani
iamausername -> ???

Man I hope the numbers are what actually decides lynches, otherwise we're going to feel really stupid if we say, run up jenter trying to lynch musher and jenter actually gets lynched.

Vote: Cavebear

continuing with the vote testing. Couple other people can vote for "me" to see where that goes.

[Macavenger]

Problem with the votes go down the first list thing: In the last vote count, there are three people voting for Jex, which should give votes to Korts by that theory... but Nocmen is the one with three votes.

Speaking of Jex, she hasn't posted yet. Something to possibly think about in a while.

I'm kinda wondering if this commencing repairs to data link business means the vote system is going back to normal or otherwise changing somehow, since we started to figure it out. Anyone recognize that full quote? Looks like either Borg or Cylon Hybrid to me.

Unvote; Vote: Macavenger

since for the moment it looks like I probably give Korts votes? Yes/no/maybe?

[Macavenger]

Role/rule fishing stuff. I FoS'd both you and Battousai for that quite a ways back, and you continuing it is a good place to start looking for scum, IMO.

[Macavenger]

Yeah. Looks like there was an error in the sixth vote count, it was edited after I posted that. It all lines up correctly now.

Unvote; Vote: Jex

(Korts)

[Macavenger]

Mac: What Korts did isn't scummy enough to place a vote, IMO. His question and answers to it, wouldn't help him fakeclaim later. Just as mine wouldn't either, because it seemed I was the only one who got this and if all the townies did and I was scum, how would I know about it?

Disagree. Despite being 5 pages into the thread, we have for all intents and purposes barely left the random voting stage, since most of that was working out the voting mechanics. That's plenty to place a vote this early. I don't have a ton invested in it, but I haven't really seen anything else worth voting for.

I forgot to say this but my role says (on top of the rest of it) with a ___ complex (not putting what incase it gives scum an advantage)

WTF? English please?

[Macavenger]

Interesting. Yos2 has an FoS on him, with no name on it. That suggests that someone (presumably scum) have an ability to secretly FoS a player, and that it does have some kind of effect on the game. Either that, or Tar messed up the count again, but I kind of doubt it this time.

iamausername - why would you rather be voting SSK than Jex currently? They've both been somewhat lurkish.

[Macavenger]

True, it is usually a terrible strategy. However, this is a differet type of Mafia. We should try out different strategies than normal.

Wrong, it's still mafia.

Unvote; Vote: Korts

(SSK)

[Macavenger]

Is it just me, or might to words 'Nuclear Launch Detected' indicate a deadline?

In keeping with the rest of the mod's flavor this game, I'd consider it a Starcraft reference. I wouldn't consider it to have any lesser or greater meaning than any of the Matrix or what have you references that have been all over the place.

[Macavenger]

I think the quotes can help us, or hurt us, because they seem to be in reference to everyone's roles. For example, there was a Matrix quote talking about Agent Smith, so there might be an Agent Smith among us. If we keep track of all of these quotes, then it *may* be possible to deduce the amount of scum or something like that.

Do you really think trying to infer alignment based on role names, even if we could figure them all out, is a good idea in this type of game?

[Macavenger]

Interesting. Yos2 has an FoS on him, with no name on it.

Do I? Which vote count was this mentioned in?

It was a vote count error. Think it was the count immediately before I posted that, which got edited afterwords.

[Macavenger]

I'm not saying any more, but I expect any protective role to be protecting me tonight.

Why should protective roles be targetting you because of this? I don't get it. I can see why you expect someone (you) to die if we lynch the mod, and this explains Battousai's rule. Does not explain why you're trying to direct any possible doctors.

Yos2, Jex, who do you think is scum? You've both been pretty quiet about that. Actually I guess more people than just Yos2 and Jex need to speak up about that, but those two names have jumped out the most for me as having contributed to figuring out the setup but not hunting scum to speak of.

[Macavenger]

To me it only lends credence to the idea that scum have safeclaims. Rolenamecop is a fairly common town role to help pierce safeclaims. In a game like this, I doubt we'll be able to infer alignment from name claims, especially if the scum have safeclaims.

[Macavenger]

Not name claiming. He claimed his rolename in 173. Best guess would be the relevant rule is mod PM quoting, though if 180 was close enough to be an infraction of that, I'm not sure why it didn't get him modkilled.

[Macavenger]

Thoughts:

I'm almost positive that inability to see the rules was related to Jenter being alive, since he was from the cardgame Mao. For anyone who doesn't know, Mao is a cardgame where players are not allowed to talk about the rules in any fashion - you have to figure them out by watching or playing. A common twist is that a player who wins a hand gets to make up a new rule for the next hand, so we might want to be alert for something of that nature happening, though I doubt it will now that the Mao godfather is gone and we're aware of the rules.

From flavor, it appears there were 2 kills last night, both ending up targetted on Jenter. This suggests that the Mafia may not have known the rules either, since their kill ended up being redirected to Jenter. I suppose we could also have a very lucky Doc. "Hoist by his own petard" would kind of suggest to me that the mafia accidentally killed one of their own, though. If true, this means they were trying to kill Yos, which makes Yos very likely town.

I'll reread in a bit and see if I can find anything that looks like possible connections to Jenter, but I'm kinda doubtful about that since not a whole lot of actual scumhunting got done yesterday.

[Macavenger]

Erm... just noticed,

Mod:

is MafiaSSK supposed to have 4 votes on him at the start of the day, or is this another vote count error?

Knew I hadn't accounted for the 4. - Tar

[Macavenger]

I don't agree with Mac's speculation that Yos is probably town. I don't want to take the chance that Yos might actually be scum/ third party. Jenter could have went after a protected role or something that deflects the night action or attack back at the attacker. Now I don't know what role that could be, but I wouldn't mark Yos as probable town.

Suggest an alternate meaning for the kill flavor "hoist by own petard?" If Yos were some kind of scum or SK, where did his kill go? I agree that there's a small chance something weird happened, but odds are scum tried to kill Yos, which would make him town. The chance that something else might have happened is why I label him "probable town" over "confirmed town."

I really think that the scum was trying to kill the person above Jenter, which I'm guesssing was Yosarian.

Definitely was Yos - look back at our early efforts to figure out the voting. Yos->Jenter was one of our early deductions.

[Macavenger]

Not that I'm aware of.

[Macavenger]

Typically, on D2 I would look over the posts of the person who was killed and see who would target them. But in this case the person who was probably supposed to be dead is alive, and everyone who would target them is already dead. So I think Yos was picked because he seemed the most protown (against roleclaims and the likes). That's the only thing I see from that.

This really doesn't make much sense. As best we can tell, Yos was targeted by two killing roles. That rather definitively makes someone who would target him alive, even ignoring the fact that Jenter almost certainly had buddies. Further, how is your stance that he was picked because he looked the most town consistent with your earlier adamant belief that we shouldn't consider him likely town because he was targeted?

I'm also against the mass name claim, because chances are that it would be far more likely to help scum find dangerous powers than help the town determine scum. This is doubly true with the town namecop dead.

Vote: MafiaSSK

(Battousai) for the moment.

[Macavenger]

SSK, who do you think might be scum? Why?

[Macavenger]

Interesting, I didn't have any problem understanding my role. I wasn't under the impression that the roles were particularly confusing, rather the rest of the game; did I just get lucky there?

[Macavenger]

Why aren't you asking questions of people trying to find something suspicious then?

[Macavenger]

b]Unvote; Vote: Jex[/b] (SSK)

[Macavenger]

Damn tags.

Unvote; Vote: Jex

[Macavenger]

Batt's 261 is a good post. I like the probability of him being town a lot better after that. You pretty much nailed the reasoning on my vote, other than that it was also partially a reaction to Tar's "shut up and vote."

I'm pretty much planning on leaving my vote on SSK until he actually decides to post some content. More votes to force him to do so would be great.

[Macavenger]

Nope. I'm trying not to use the same strategy. I also haven't really found anything worth quesitoning about.

I don't care whether you're using the same strategy or not. You're still active lurking and being blatantly anti-town about it. There has been plenty going on to give at least a few comments or questions. Start contributing or die.

[Macavenger]

Well, for one thing I was only moderately suspicious of you in the first place. But the way you analyzed the mini-wagon that formed on you struck me as rather honest and townish.

[Macavenger]

Why do you want to lynch a lurker so badly? Surely you have opions on whom you could think are scum and usually scum are better to lynch than lurkers.

You're presenting two false assertions here. One is that lurkers aren't scum. They don't have to be, but lurking is an anti-town action, and should be punished accordingly. The other is that I'm playing lynch the lurker, which I'm not. If I were, I'd be going after Jex also. You've gone well beyond simple lurking.

My usual first step in dealing with lurkers is to try to get them to post more content. If they do, you judge alignment based on content. If not, you use threat of lynch to get them to do so, and lynch them if they still don't.

I demanded content from you some time ago, and you've completely refused to provide. As such, I'm going to push a lynch until you actually do so.

What few posts you have are poor beyond lurking. Suggesting that we try lynching the mod Day 1 because town doesn't usually hit scum Day 1 anyway is like advocating a no lynch, only worse because we'd actually be losing a player of some sort, with at best a random lynch's chance of hitting scum, from what we knew.

You've also supported a name claim, which is mildly scummy in my opinion, and implied Battousai was scummy for doing setup discussion when you haven't contributed anything above that level yourself.

So SSK, why should we be lynching someone instead of you?

[Macavenger]

Softclaiming is bad.

I still see no reason why you should be alive.

[Macavenger]

iamausername- yes, I would rather see MafiaSSK CONTRIBUTE instead of claim right now. He can claim later if he wants, but I think contributing would be better for the town.

I endorse this product or service.

I also endorse more SSK votes to force him to contribute, since he's clearly not willing to do so when not under threat of lynch.

[Macavenger]

I'd like to point out that MafiaSSK has posted in several places around the site the last couple days, including games in this forum, but not here.

More votes please. Let's run him up to L-1 and see if he's willing to contribute then.

[Macavenger]

I don't really see a true case against besides the fact that I'm lurking. There's also how I was pro-nameclaim, but that was because I really doubt the scum could benefit from learning the rolename of any town person.

As I've said, there are different types of lurking. You've engaged in the worst type of it, which is posting just enough to avoid replacement, while contributing nothing. Not posting much doesn't mean you can't contribute. You, however, are explicitly refusing to contribute anything, which is completely unacceptable.

The fact that you have not scumhunted this game at all, and are blatantly refusing to do so when asked, is the biggest issue here.

Since, I softclaimed I will full claim right here. I am a One-Shot Pro-Town Reviver. I can also Cheat Death where if I'm killed in any way it is revealed as an elaborate ruse by the other players and I am not killed. However, I can only do this once.

Convenient. Does this mean you can only cheat death or revive once, or can you do them once each? Did you try to revive Korts last night? Do you die if you revive someone? Name claim also.

iamausername's very quick disengagement from this wagon despite continued lack of contribution is noted.

I'd like to see more comment from Yos2 and Jex on this.

[Macavenger]

I will try and improve my contributing.

Now would have been a good time to start.

I don't know. My role wasn't really that specific whether I could do both. And no I forgot to try and revive Korts last night. I don't know if I die if I revive someone.

Awfully convenient.

And I also don't have a name in a parenthesis.

I am Number 6 (from The Prisoner).

Explain.

[Macavenger]

Anyone in the game particularly familiar with The Prisoner? I've looked over the wikipedia article on his claimed character, and I can sorta maybe get the Cheat Death ability out of that (very sketchy), but not a reviver in any way.

An elaboration on my previous post:

And no I forgot to try and revive Korts last night.

This is not an answer I would expect from a real reviver. Things that would seem reasonable to me include, but not necessarily limited to, "I wasn't sure he was the best choice and didn't want to use it yet," "I can't because he was modkilled," "I tried, but failed because of the target changing rule." "I forgot" seems like a cop out. I'm not impressed with SSKs claimed level of knowledge of his own role.

Also, since it appears I forgot to do this a couple posts ago,

FoS: iamausername

for the quick hop off the wagon, and because I agree with Battousai that those posts aren't particularly contradictory.

[Macavenger]

Revival is a wholly testable ability, and one which I think is highly unlikely to be in the hands of scum. Why wouldn't I unvote?

I'm not so sure how testable it is right now. As I kind of hinted earlier, it wouldn't surprise me if Korts is not revivable since he was modkilled. Obviously we don't want to revive Jenter. So you want to wait until N3 to test the ability of someone who has demonstrated weak knowledge of and attention to their roleclaim, which doesn't really appear to fit their claimed name, while steadfastly refusing to contribute anything to the scumhunt? I'm not so inclined to wait that long, myself.

Obviously if SSK starts scumhunting, things change. But for the moment, I see no compelling reason not to be voting him. I don't buy the claim at all.

[Macavenger]

The reason being, I don't see Tar, a mod making a mafia member easier to lynch. But I can see a reviver type role needing less to be voted for if outed or something like that.

Justification? I see no basis for this. There is a clear provision in the rules that could apply to any player becoming easier to lynch.

Love how SSK has now backtracked the confirmable part of his role. So, what are your actual abilities, SSK?

Vote is staying on SSK until he starts doing some actual scumhunting.

[Macavenger]

Why were we going to go into night?

Probably because you're being lynched? If you actually do take one less than normal votes to lynch, you're at L-1. Feel like scumhunting at all yet?

Also, Yos's most recent post explains much.

[Macavenger]

I have a better idea. How about if he tells us who he thinks is scum, and why, instead of pretending to contribute by answering questions like that?

[Macavenger]

Feel like scumhunting at all yet?

Taking the continued silence as a no.

Could someone hammer? That'd be pretty spiffy.

[Macavenger]

Whoever killed me, I just want you to know that I fraking hate you, and you will die many miserable deaths in other games for this.

"Bah."

[Macavenger]

AJHDFKLHJKLAJFKJ

SSK AND CAVEBEAR

I Haaaaaaaaaaaaate you!!!!

I was so looking forward to my daykill. Why why why why why There wasn't nearly enough information out yet to use it Day 1. I really didn't even want to kill N1, but knew I had to if I were going to be useful. I shot Yos because I thought he was playing similarly to Mini 578 where he was scum, and thought I saw some connections from him to other players (I forget who now). At least I was half right in that he wasn't town, heh.

Pretty sure if I' gotten the townie sleeper agent role I'd have picked up on it instantly from the All Along the Watchtower bit. Kind of a giveaway to BSG fans there. Hmm.... Number 6... All Along the Watchtower... I wonder...

This would pretty clearly have been more entertaining had Jenter lived longer. The synergy between Mao and Haruhi for mindscrewing would have been crazy.