Undertale Semi-Open 1.1 - Snowdin Snowdown
-
-
Oversoul
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
But but fight songIn post 11, Wisdom wrote:We identify four townies and win. Townhunting is better than scumhunting and this playerlist is good for application-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
Its almost as if there’s a reason for the difference.In post 33, Elements wrote:Last game you entered with a heal not a hurt. Coincidence? I think not.
HURT: oversoul-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
mmmm noIn post 47, Wisdom wrote:oversoul on the other hand looks scummy so far
I’m obvtown and this is a game I don’t even need to make myself obvtown in-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
I am certainly obvtown, but like I said it isn’t going to be an issue this game
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
It’s ok. Becoming obvtown is the only thing I can do. I can’t play scum, I can’t scumhunt, but I can obvtownIn post 61, Elements wrote:I don't understand how apparently eveyone except me can be obvtown. My scum game is so obvious to see. I'm so much more passive and less erratic.-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
For like a day. Then I lurk. And then I die.In post 70, Elements wrote:
can you obvtown as scum?In post 69, Oversoul wrote:
It’s ok. Becoming obvtown is the only thing I can do. I can’t play scum, I can’t scumhunt, but I can obvtownIn post 61, Elements wrote:I don't understand how apparently eveyone except me can be obvtown. My scum game is so obvious to see. I'm so much more passive and less erratic.-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
I mean it is important in this game, but I don’t think we should go pacifist unfortunatelyIn post 71, Wisdom wrote:why do you think becoming obvtown is not important here? It looks pretty important especially if we go for pacifist
@oversoul-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
This doesn’t help lol. I will never be able to read either of themIn post 81, Wisdom wrote:now you have players like nacho and mastina here tho.
Or you for that matter-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
The only way mixed is worth doing is 1-3/3-1. 2-2 is town loss automatically if there’s a scum I’m pretty sure. That’s what I remember from thinking about it last gameIn post 90, Wisdom wrote:so you think the mixed route is better? what about the genocide one
But I don’t think Neutral is the way to go-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
Elements is at the top of my listIn post 95, Wisdom wrote:so far nymph and gingie are on my radar for awkward entrances-
-
Oversoul
-
-
Oversoul
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
How about no, lover boy. We are not killing me. If anything we are sparing me.In post 185, Rakan wrote:
To kill? Oversoul.In post 181, Ginngie wrote:i'll try to make sense of it in the morning lmfao
rakan who you staring at rn
Though I do still have an attachment to going spare-kill-spare-spare
I'm thinking this game plan up as I go along, I'm thinking it is best to put people we trust in the 3 spares after all, since both sides are essentially revealed (if you know 1 scum is in 3 people, you know 1 is in the other 2)-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
In post 112, popsofctown wrote:
The idea is that this 9-2 setup has one more mislynch needed than, say, a newbie queue micro, but far less town power. I kind of question the "far less town power" part and am usually the one in open setup design pushing against high town EVs, which is why I ran this setup with several of Something_Smart's more powerful potential roles excluded and suggested a last minute nerf for Asgore.In post 109, volxen wrote:
Both me and my partner didn't really like Genocide because it requires you to pull off four mislynches to win. Usually when scum needs four mislynches it's because there are three scum. Four mislynches is a lot to pull off when there are only two scum. Not to mention that Genocide gives town the most information by far, with consistent flips along with the LOVE mechanic, which can be leashed/controlled.In post 104, popsofctown wrote:I don't know if you've read the whole dead thread but I've calculated the level of fake townspew needed for scum to win Pacifist and Genocide routes to be equivalent.
There are other reasons why Pacifist benefits scum as well. One big one -- which surprisingly wasn't brought up a lot in the game thread -- is that it usually is easier to fake a townread on a townie than it is to fake a scumread on them. With the Pacifist route, the game primarily revolves around townhunting rather than scumhunting, which appealed to both me and my partner. I think on some level the Pacifist route is easier than the Genocide (or even Neutral) route as scum, because with each mislynch wagon that you are on you open yourself up to more and more scrutiny as the town gains more and more information. Whereas the Pacifist route denies town of key information and allows the town (if it is not vigilant) to be lulled into a false sense of security. And in particular, it allows you push your partner towards a spare on the grounds that they are the towniest player in the game. You can do this without consequence as long as everyone is convinced that it is optimal to stay on the Pacifist route rather than switch to the Neutral route. Even if you are unable to get yourself spared after getting your partner spared, it still hurts town when the core is reached in the Pacifist route because no one can ever prove that you were scum.
The prevailing belief when the setup was being workshopped is that Pacifist was generally the most attractive route. I think when there are strong arguments both ways and the answer seems unclear that's exciting.
I want to point out that the scum can leverage some of your benefits for the pacifist route when playing the genocide route! Day 1 in a standard 2 scum game, if day 1 is ultimately going to be a d1 correct lynch, a scumpartner either has to be placing a vote that is wrong, or helping shoot his own foot. In Undertale you can vanity wagon a spare on another player and lose far less towncred for failing to participate in the lynch. The spare was even correct!
I'm optimistic the smalltown design can create more tempting reasons to bail into neutral.In post 1, Something_Smart wrote:A few setup notes:
Obviously, what I want from this setup is for all three routes to be potentially attractive options. They all have different benefits and drawbacks but I want the overall strength to be about the same.
I did EV calculations for Pacifist and Genocide without the PR. Pacifist was 46%, Genocide 35%. This is assuming that town no-lynches in post-Core MYLO, making the EV there 1/3.
I think the Pacifist numbers are good. The named townie aspect barely raises town EV (the only time it matters is if the PR is spared without claiming and they aren't killed no-lynching in the Core), and the Pacifist PR's are intentionally weak. Alphys got a buff since Jingle commented on her, but I do agree that she's still probably too weak to use, since you risk ruining a town win outright. I'm considering some mechanic where she's made more likely to spare a town (i.e. pick two people and one of them is spared, randomly if they're the same alignment but always town if they are different).
Genocide's a bit worrying. The named townie aspect definitely matters here, but probably only for 5-10% or so. The Genocide PR's, particularly Undyne (and the fact that Sans can WIFOM being Undyne to try to avoid dying), are meant to make up most of the rest of the gap. I'm fine with Genocide being lower EV than Pacifist, because Genocide is the highest info route and Pacifist is the lowest.
Neutral's a pain. There are a lot of moving parts, and this is the route that needs the most analysis. Quick breakdown of the different options:
1 kill (LV 1): Core will be 6 alive with 2 confirmed town (no scum spared) or 5 alive with one scum confirmed in a group of 3 (scum spared).
2 kills (LV 2): Sparing one scum and not killing the other is game over. Beyond that, one scum spared and one killed is 4 alive with a 1v1 (autowin if Asgore is outside of the 1v1), and otherwise game goes to 5 alive.
3 kills (LV 3): No killed scum is autoloss. Interestingly, if the one spared player is scum town autowins, making it a benefit to spare scum here. Otherwise, the one spared player will be confirmed town and will presumably die, leaving 4 alive and making this route functionally equivalent to Genocide. If town spares a single player and later decides they were probably scum, this route is beneficial.
In post 140, popsofctown wrote:I made a bunch of changes to my smalltown draft here: post 36
Some of it is based on his feedback about Pacifist vs. Genocide. I find a lot of it persuasive. Genocide being 2-9 mountainous is kind of like, balanced anyway, 2-9 mountainous is probably fine, and this new setup is stronger than 2-9 mountainous in the sense that you have options to bail into neutral if it offers a higher win%.
The Love mechanic was probably always about making Genocide less boring rather than more balanced, I think. So I put a genocide PR that is pretty interesting but a bit lower on power.
The current revision has two roles that can't be spared or are difficult to spare, which to me seems like a more interesting way to balance pacifist against neutral rather than jacking up the required number of spares to 5 or something. If the two roles that are both difficult to spare seem really townie this game, maybe this isn't the best time to go pacifist. If those two roles are both really scummy, cool go for it.
It'd be cool if I could manage more of that dynamic on the genocide side, but setting up a role that is just "you can't lynch this player" or "you can't lynch this player until X" happens is concerning. People get upset about governors and gladiators, and when there is no player's actions to blame for a mechanical inability to lynch someone who's openwolfing they might be even more upset. There is at least Moldsymal, a design a really like, who might get a hard guilty on night 1 but pretty much cuts neutral route out of consideration if he connects. And of course Metatron can verify an increase in townpoints and pull players towards neutral, that works on both pure paths.
EDIT: Oh wait, I lied, I did do a half-unlynchable slot. Ehhhh.. I think it's fine, it's too cute.In post 25, popsofctown wrote:RC suggested looking at setup balance in terms of where mafia have to stand in "towniness rankings" to win and I think that's a really interesting way to look at it.
Suppose everyone locks in a unanimous reads ranking D1 and it never changes, what placements do the mafia have to get to win? If the PR were removed in Undertale, its:
Pacifist: One mafia needs to appear to be 5th towniest player in the game or better. The potential to clean sweep doesn't affect win%.
Genocide: One mafia needs to appear to be the 5th towniest player in the game, but successfully claiming both the 6th and 7th positions claims a sweep. And the sweep happens before the player with the most LOVE is revealed.
Neutral: I'll come back to this sometime Neutral is complicated.
With 2 potential players on the team potentially hitting that fifth place spot the town probably does need some power, I should keep that in mind when I design smalltown.
I really like setups that are hard on town but also in a way I like the idea of doing a redesign that is easier on town because having just 1 weak PR is unhelpful to town kind of randomly when that player would have been townread anyway and the power whiffs.
I want the setup to have like a 1-cop of unconfirmed alignment for example and then we get the same clear, but it's a clear that someone selected instead of me going on random.org before this game and deciding Chemist would eventually be an IC this game.
---
Gingie, these are the posts that show Neutral is really not desirable and something that the game designers themselves have been struggling with. Obviously, some changes have been made in terms of the power roles available for this game and it was discovered that Genocide/Pacifist are really not that far off from one another in terms of EV.-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
There's no explicit percentage given because it is so variable, but if you read SS's posts two out of the 3 neutral options almost guarantee town loss if they flub on a scum Kill.
I will say that 2-2 seems like the worst possible option to choose because it opens town up to losing two fold - once on the double scum in spare and once on a scum in spare with no scum kill (which is made more likely by the fact that there is a scum in the spare).-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
1. That isn't what I said. Why are you misquoting what I said?In post 210, Rakan wrote:
Doing nothing doesn't make you look like townIn post 205, Oversoul wrote:I'm obvtown because nothing I'm doing is to a scum agenda, let alone an Oversoul scum agenda?
But we get to choose which neutral option to use, yet you applied a broad brushstroke "neutral is bad" and said it was because of statistics.Oversoul wrote:There's no explicit percentage given because it is so variable, but if you read SS's posts two out of the 3 neutral options almost guarantee town loss if they flub on a scum Kill.
I will say that 2-2 seems like the worst possible option to choose because it opens town up to losing two fold - once on the double scum in spare and once on a scum in spare with no scum kill (which is made more likely by the fact that there is a scum in the spare).
What route do you want to go for?
2. Yes... because 2 out of the 3 are bad so the path is more bad than either Genocide/Spare just by that virtue. I want to go Genocide.-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
This is really short sighted on so many levels.In post 226, Rakan wrote:I don't think it's worth discussing other reads before the mafia nightkill. Why do you think I should discuss other reads?
I'm willing to talk mechanics, why we should or shouldn't pick neutral.
As for Oversoul: He's either a pr and will die tonight if we don't spare him, or he's fake softing and should be killed for that-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
Chennis is playing pretty much the same way he played the last Undertale game. I think he is more than likely town this game for that reason.In post 328, Elements wrote:I think Chennis is scum from how badly he's reading me-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
How would it give us Rakan alignment 100%?In post 600, Ginngie wrote:
Either pacifist or neutral at this point but everyone’s comfortable with me being town so if we go 2:2 then that would give us Rakan alignment 100%.In post 598, Nymph wrote:I'll join if I can't get my mastina lynch.-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
Are you claiming this because you’re the PR or you think you’re that obvtown?In post 654, Ginngie wrote:I advocate for the neutral route
I’m what makes the PT a cop shot so I’m spared, then lynching two is probably Gucci cuz the math has the same amount of people after D4 in every scenario so let’s get 2 flips and a cop shot-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
There’s only a 5th spare if we are wrong on the first 4. Is this a condemnation of Rakan or of this town?In post 680, Elements wrote:Constantly saying he doesn't want to be spared. The first time, fine you want to contribute, the next however many times combined with "i want pacifist" trying hard to be townread and become the de facto 5th spare to win scum the game.-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
I'm getting thereIn post 708, Ginngie wrote:wisdom focus on Elements
Oversoul... do that obvtown shit you've been talking about cuz you did say you lurk and die and you have not been a driving force in the game to wager you as town-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
Oversoul Survivor
- Survivor
- Survivor
- Posts: 14514
- Joined: June 5, 2011
-
-
-
-