Mini 2127 - Fairly Special [Game Over]

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: bsg

Hoping we get some flavour for the game itself in addition to roles. The MM2 night flavour was my fave.

[EspressoPatronum]

I was actually going to vote for the hydra, but I saw Ank's profile pic in there + didn't want her to think I have a vendetta against her from TM20.

I picked BSG bcz I don't know what it stands for.

[EspressoPatronum]

Why are you including the hydra in this?

Purely because until EspressoPatronum ruined it, we were the only three slots to have posted.

More like I expanded it to a 4-person bloc. No need to thank me.

[EspressoPatronum]

mastina dances and howls in the moonlight.

Uhhh

[EspressoPatronum]

That looks a loooooot like WW there.

[EspressoPatronum]

No way a civilian thinks that much about his entrance and an rvs vote yada yada yeeeeee

[...]
Not a fan of that entrance. VOTE: Chronos

Nah, I think that 24 is clearly worse. I don't see why Patronum should be so concerned with (highlighted). To me it reads as scum not wanting to stick their foot in it.

VOTE: Patronum

Two things Re: 24.

1. I dislike hydras, so they're my go-to vote.
2. I played with Ank in TM20. I spent most of the game convinced she was scum, but I started believing her right before I died. I was concerned with #1 because I didn't want my default hydra vote to seem personal.

[EspressoPatronum]

I was actually going to vote for the hydra, but I saw Ank's profile pic in there + didn't want her to think I have a vendetta against her from TM20.

I picked BSG bcz I don't know what it stands for.

You wouldn't offend me if you did dw

-Summer

Good to hear. Thanks!

[EspressoPatronum]

@Cronos - What do you think of Egix's entrance (48)?

[EspressoPatronum]

How is this on page 3 already?

VOTE: Cronos

I hate titans.

VOTE: BP

Hates the rate of the game, but doesn't vote the higher posters.

And 3 pages isn't even bad for a mini. ~50 posts in about 10 hours.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Cronos - What do you think of Egix's entrance (48)?

Not feeling anything about it. Nothing sways me one way or the other. Why, did you think it was weird?

I'm having quite the trouble wrapping my head around why you would feel compelled to ignore STRQ's hydra just because you had past experience with them and were wrong on one head of the hydra. Ok, well, this isn't really the issue, but more so why you had a reasoning for not voting them, in...

RVS

.

Ahhh, I think I see the issue here. My hydra votes

are not

rvs, they're policy votes. I intentionally vote hydras because I dislike playing with them + they make it hard to sort their respective slots.

After choosing to not policy vote the hydra, I RVS voted BSG.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Cronos - What do you think of Egix's entrance (48)?

Not feeling anything about it. Nothing sways me one way or the other. Why, did you think it was weird?[...]

Yes. I thought it was strange that Egix voted me for similar reasons as you but didn't acknowledge your post explaining your vote.

[EspressoPatronum]

How is this on page 3 already?

VOTE: Cronos

I hate titans.

VOTE: BP

Hates the rate of the game, but doesn't vote the higher posters.

And 3 pages isn't even bad for a mini. ~50 posts in about 10 hours.

Join me?

VOTE: BP

[EspressoPatronum]

"hydra dissonance" is exactly the term I didn't know I needed.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

Clarification: This hydra has never crossed EspressoPatronum before.

Correct.

Individually, I have played with Ank, Enter, and I'm 90% sure I've played with the DVA avatar. I don't think I've played with the toucan avatar.

If anyone has trouble reading this hydra, just try to solve one of us at least.

We're all 4 different players but we like developing our dynamics together, and while we're definitely not too immune or conscious of hydra dissonance, we're capable of gamesolving.
[...]

-Tai

Thanks for the tips!

Also, I appreciate the effort you guys are taking to clarify which head is talking.

[EspressoPatronum]

EP I played with you on an alt in a mini theme ages ago but I don't remember your play that wells. If you remember DVa avatar then that would be from TM I guess but I kinda don't count that

-Q

Just out of curiosity, what mini theme?

Did you play in Mainstream Mafia 2? I only remember seeing the DVA avatar in the post-game chat.

[EspressoPatronum]

I no longer think EP’s scum, I tried to gauge out reactions as much as I could.

I do have some other scum reads though that I plan to keep for myself and will probably lurk for quite a bit and observe from afar.

But we're just warming up. Why lurk now?

I'm also interested to hear your response to Tai's question re: your interpretation of mastina's opening post. Do you think it was towny?

[EspressoPatronum]

Just out of curiosity, what mini theme?

Pokemon [ruby? sapphire? something] mafia, I was detective pikachu iirc
-Q

Ahh kk, that was a fun one. I was a friendly neighbourizer!

Looking forward to playing with you again.

[EspressoPatronum]

They had no thought as in you, not mastina.

What's your answer to STQR's question though?

[EspressoPatronum]

@Chronos That's too defensive for my tastes.

When you were pushing me for my BSG vote reasoning, I worked with you to explain everything. By my reading, STQR was asking you to do something similar in explaining your reasoning. Instead of working through the questions, you got evasive and went on the attack.

I also dislike the timing of your intent to lurk, and you either missed or ignored my question at 86

VOTE: Chronos

[EspressoPatronum]

And while I'm thinking about it:

I no longer think EP’s scum,

I tried to gauge out reactions as much as I could.

[...]

What specific reactions did you gauge?

[EspressoPatronum]

@Chronos That's too defensive for my tastes.

When you were pushing me for my BSG vote reasoning, I worked with you to explain everything. By my reading, STQR was asking you to do something similar in explaining your reasoning. Instead of working through the questions, you got evasive and went on the attack.

I also dislike the timing of your intent to lurk, and you either missed or ignored my question at 86

VOTE: Chronos

It’s 12:30 AM. I am replying to this to remind myself to make a timeline of the events and stuff.

No prob. Happy to pick up with things tomorrow.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]
It wasn't RVS. BP was scummy in that he hated volume but he didn't vote anyone making the problem. EP agreed.

Immediately thereafter, he picks a fight with Chronos so he has an excuse to move his vote.

That makes me suspect partners.

Do you disagree with my reasons for voting Chronos?

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]
It wasn't RVS. BP was scummy in that he hated volume but he didn't vote anyone making the problem. EP agreed.

Immediately thereafter, he picks a fight with Chronos so he has an excuse to move his vote.

That makes me suspect partners.

Do you disagree with my reasons for voting Chronos?

Yes, and I don't see how they're in good faith.

What, specifically, of the below post (or my posts surrounding it) do you find in bad faith?

@Chronos That's too defensive for my tastes.

#1*
When you were pushing me for my BSG vote reasoning, I worked with you to explain everything. By my reading, STQR was asking you to do something similar in explaining your reasoning. Instead of working through the questions, you got evasive and went on the attack.

#2*
I also dislike the timing of your intent to lurk, and you either missed or ignored my question at 86

VOTE: Chronos

[*EP note - paragraphs numbered for clarity]

I can imagine where you're coming from with my stuff on lurkers in #2, as I find that a consistently touchy subject for some.

For #1 though, I genuinely can't see why you would (a) disagree with my reason, and (b) think that is in bad faith. Can you spell it out for me?

[EspressoPatronum]

Small favour to ask of the Raven head before it becomes an issue. Can you pay more attention to your tone?

Adorable's alignment and/or play is not an excuse to treat her poorly.

[EspressoPatronum]

[....]

Egix96

-

Ok, upon a re-view, this looks like a solid slot for scum contenders. Their first vote is actually horrendous. It creates a dichotomy between me and EP, calling both our votes bad.

My gripe with this sentence :

I was actually going to vote for the hydra, but I saw Ank's profile pic in there +

didn't want her to think I have a vendetta against her from TM20.

I picked BSG bcz I don't know what it stands for.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

No way a civilian thinks that much about his entrance and an rvs vote yada yada yeeeeee

Not a fan of that entrance. VOTE: Chronos

Nah, I think that 24 is clearly worse.

I don't see why Patronum should be so concerned with (highlighted). To me it reads as scum not wanting to stick their foot in it.

VOTE: Patronum

Is that, it's kind of goofy thought process. A wolf, if they were afraid, would most likely not even mention it. I have trouble parsing this as a legit town PoV, if you think they are afraid of a certain push on a slot, wouldn't you think they would just...not do it?

His #136 is mostly done to refute my argument for town reading Adorable, but he brings nothing of value to the table.

I just found it strange that Alim happened to start suspecting the same person who asked him to give a read.

I actually don't buy this, at all. In what world does Egix think, from a town!PoV, that a wolf would turn on the person that they town read? What was so suspicious about it? Eyestott didn't even like, call alimdia out or anything, so why would you find it strange that alimdia started scum leaning eyestott, someone that was town reading alimdia?

A lot of Egix's thoughts don't really make much sense from a town PoV, I feel as though this would be a go-to slot for a cfd or something like that. There's no progression, the reads are mostly made to reflect a certain action that devoid of context is scummy, but there isn't a natural, flowing progression that reaches that spot.

Also, he fits the archetype of scum lurker, they feel as though they need to regain high ground in the thread and stand out, which is what these votes and suspicions are doing. A town lurker would take their time analysing everything, whereas, a scum lurker only has an interest of looking good when coming back to the thread, looking like they're actively contributing despite being gone, because they are thinking they'd look really bad if they've done no hunting or anything.

Definitely a solid vote.

I completely agree with the first half of this.
VOTE: Egix

Regarding the second half. Is your meta/archetype read based on this game alone, or have you played other games with Egix?

[EspressoPatronum]

Liking alimdia's content on p9. Town read there.

[EspressoPatronum]

How do people sort hydras in a readslist? Sort by head, or do you individually sort outside of a list then combine them into one for the readslist?

[EspressoPatronum]

Here's where I'm at rn.

Town
Alimdia
Mastina*

Townlean
Chronos
Adorable
STRQ**
Eyestott

Null (no order)
BP
BSG
Rabid Schauzer Clover Ebi
Shadowlesscloud

Scum
Titus
Egix


*But I'm still a little confused with the mod's *dancing in the night* thing from earlier. If that's role-based info, I'd drop mastina down to around null. If that's just TL chiming into the convo, then I'd keep her at town.

**Really liking Tai's content. Q seems townlean. Summer is more null. Raven is nullscum, but I'm pretty sure that's due to a bias on tone dropping him lower.

Happy to discuss reads when I'm back in later.

[EspressoPatronum]

Small favour to ask of the Raven head before it becomes an issue. Can you pay more attention to your tone?

Adorable's alignment and/or play is not an excuse to treat her poorly.

Adorable has already failed to interpret several of our posts in their intended light despite my best efforts to avoid such a situation. Any resulting agony is the result of her own representation.

-Raven

Then your best efforts haven't been good enough + you need to try harder. If people have to plead with you to treat others respectfully in a social game, you're doing something wrong.

[EspressoPatronum]

Egix's post is very obviously not targeting Chronos' post for attention

Edited for better phrasing to prevent further misunderstanding

-Raven

Much appreciated. I have to go now, but I'll fully respond to your above question later.

[EspressoPatronum]

Eyyy, gobble is here!!! You're a sight for sore eyes, friend.

I'm a few pages behind, so I'll start my catch-up now.

[EspressoPatronum]

Regarding the second half. Is your meta/archetype read based on this game alone, or have you played other games with Egix?

The archetype read is data collected over a large number of games, Egix fits the mindset of a scum lurker. I may or may not have played games with Egix, but that isn't really a factor that I'm taking into account much.

I'm doing what is called mindset analysis, mostly how town players think as opposed to scum players, on the premise that town don't have TMI and scum do.

Noted. Thanks.

[EspressoPatronum]

EP, why do you just float on various forms of OMGUS? First Chronos now Egix.

I mean, it's pretty hard not to have a vote that looks OMGUSy vote when over half the playerlist has at least a light scimread on me. I will reiterate the reasons for my votes below.

I would like to note at the outset that your "question" here is really more of an attack, but I'll answer it anyway.

In addition, you didn't answer my questions to you in 120.

Chronos

My early interactions with Chronos were more reactionary to explain why I didn't vote STRQ. By 80, Chronos expressed that she no longer thought I was scum.

I didn't like 92 because she dodged STRQ's question, and I didn't like 80 because she announced her intent to lurk.

@Chronos That's too defensive for my tastes.

When you were pushing me for my BSG vote reasoning, I worked with you to explain everything. By my reading, STQR was asking you to do something similar in explaining your reasoning. Instead of working through the questions, you got evasive and went on the attack.

I also dislike the timing of your intent to lurk, and you either missed or ignored my question at 86

VOTE: Chronos

While I did not find 122 convincing of scum!STRQ, it helped answer a lot of my doubts on Chronos. She's now one of my townreads, and I found a lot of 217 to be insightful. That leads me to Egix.

Egix

I stated my dislike of Egix's vote on me at 70. After reading 217, I agreed with Chronos that Egix's reasons was sus.

See below.

I was actually going to vote for the hydra, but I saw Ank's profile pic in there +

didn't want her to think I have a vendetta against her from TM20.

I picked BSG bcz I don't know what it stands for.

VOTE: EspressoPatronum

No way a civilian thinks that much about his entrance and an rvs vote yada yada yeeeeee

Not a fan of that entrance. VOTE: Chronos

Nah, I think that 24 is clearly worse. I don't see why Patronum should be so concerned with (highlighted). To me it reads as scum not wanting to stick their foot in it.

VOTE: Patronum

As Chronos notes in 217, it doesn't make sense to assume that my answer in 24 was 'scum not wanting to "stick [my] foot in it." I figured my answer would garner some heat, but I chose to answer thruthfully anyway.

Scum trying to avoid conflict would have just made up an excuse about the BSG vote and not mention STRQ at all.


Assuming you've made it to the end, can you take a look at 120 for me?

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

Small favour to ask of the Raven head before it becomes an issue. Can you pay more attention to your tone?

Adorable's alignment and/or play is not an excuse to treat her poorly.

If Raven was Enter, the tone makes so much sense. Enter was Miss Lynch from Mainstream Mafia II.

Yeah, I think you're right. The eagle avatar matches Enter's.

Scum

Titus

Egix

EP, why did you scumread Titus here? You had not publicly posted an opinion or really announced suspicion of Titus when you posted this list.

ali's comments at 222. When you compare my interactions with Chronos vs BP (or lacktherof re: the latter), Titus' strong scumread of me doesn't seem in good faith. I've added some of her progression on me below. Also check out my ISO and interactions with Chronos around posts 80-100ish, which are the reasons for my vote swap.

Spoiler:

Titus! Long time no play! Looking forward to playing with you!

Me too.

How is this on page 3 already?

VOTE: Cronos

I hate titans.

VOTE: BP

Hates the rate of the game, but doesn't vote the higher posters.

And 3 pages isn't even bad for a mini. ~50 posts in about 10 hours.

Join me?

"agency captured"
"page 4"

ok titus

-Q

Well, sounds like someone's scared. It's a fifty/fifty on the last two. My money's on EP and BP being teamed.

Mastina, can you join me on BP? I think you're wrong on Adorable but right on EP and BP.

Sorry, Titus, but I'm not budging from Adorable.
Have you played with Adorable?

I have, and never before in my career have I so strongly felt that the contrast between the Adorable I'm seeing now and the Adorable I saw before is due to a different alignment. Adorable this game is oozing obvscum, not to mention, radiating an entirely different aura than when I played with her before, where she was obvtown pretty much immediately.

If this is wrong or I die, you'll sheep me on EP/BP? I feel the same way about them on those two and they are in the bottom of your reads list. I don't have a strong feeling on Adorable but I'd rather not fight.

I feel even stronger based on EP's why me fry me fight/response to Chronos and trying to say there's not enough to support my partners read. The hydra getting all omgusy defensive of those two really doesn't sit well with me either.

I could go to the hydra but I'd rather work with you than against you.

[EspressoPatronum]

Looking forward to eyestott's explanation of his plan.

[EspressoPatronum]

@gobble - my dislike for hydras developed in the william tatney game. Post 118 of that game is where I decided it.
viewtopic.php?t=80729&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Regarding the specific games you mentioned:

I didn't realize they were hydras until well after RVS. I don't think I ever mentioned a hydra in MM2. In CoaLITion, I talk about my dislike for hydras in post 138 in
viewtopic.php?t=80783&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

[EspressoPatronum]

Gets prodded, moves vote to town

Consider my RS read weakened significantly.

I hadn't done a damn thing, and still haven't. Doubtful you had a read on me, and more doubtful that that vote (which was basically a prodge, but adding to a wagon because wagons are good) changed anything in your mind. That post was fake analysis.

Good point.

@Titus - can you give us a complete reads list?

[EspressoPatronum]

@gobble - my dislike for hydras developed in the william tatney game. Post 118 of that game is where I decided it.
viewtopic.php?t=80729&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

Regarding the specific games you mentioned:

I didn't realize they were hydras until well after RVS. I don't think I ever mentioned a hydra in MM2. In CoaLITion, I talk about my dislike for hydras in post 138 in
viewtopic.php?t=80783&f=84&st=0&sk=t&sd ... er_sort=Go

---

Those don't really seem to support the position you took in this game.

How so?

[EspressoPatronum]

Spoiler:

Subject: micro 886: mbos6 william tatney. game ogre

I kinda want to policy Doc H because the hydra shenanigans are going to be a pain.

Icing on the cake that others think Doc H is scummy.

MBOS William Tatney


Subject: Micro 887: the coaLITion [game over]

[...]
RC reads was talked about earlier and it’s based on NSG actually posting.

I was hoping you'd have a bit more to substantiate the read at this point, as scum!nsg could very easily post more. What's your read on the RC head*?

*Note - I find it hard to read hydras. Is it better practice to split the read by head and consolidate later, or approach the read in a holistic manner from the outset?

coaLITion

---

I was actually going to vote for the hydra, but I saw Ank's profile pic in there + didn't want her to think I have a vendetta against her from TM20.

I picked BSG bcz I don't know what it stands for.

Ahhh, I think I see the issue here. My hydra votes are not rvs, they're policy votes. I intentionally vote hydras because I dislike playing with them + they make it hard to sort their respective slots.

After choosing to not policy vote the hydra, I RVS voted BSG.

Fairly special

---
I am specifically referring to the fact that you vote hydrae based on policy. Those two posts from those other games do not support your contention that you vote them based on policy when it seems like you actually have not yet voted a hydra based on policy.

Ahh, I see. I could have sworn I've done a hydra policy vote, but I can't find one in any of my other games either.

Perhaps it would be better to say that I frequently consider voting hydras based on policy. I don't like playing with them and try to avoid games with them when possible.

I'd point to this game as an example, but I didn't vote STRQ here either, lol. I'll put it in the list of 'cases where EP has voiced dislike for hydras.'

-----

At the end of the day, ask yourself this -- what does scum!EP gain from getting into this mess about my first vote? I could have just gave a lame rvs explanation for BSG without any extra reasons.

You

specifically should know how careful I am when I'm concealing information bcz of our time in the MM2 mason group.

[EspressoPatronum]

At the end of the day, ask yourself this -- what does scum!EP gain from getting into this mess about my first vote? I could have just gave a lame rvs explanation for BSG without any extra reasons.

You specifically should know how careful I am when I'm concealing information bcz of our time in the MM2 mason group.

This is the question I have been asking myself since Cronos brought it up. I have a couple of answers. My first answer is that you felt compelled to add something to your RVS vote. I don't know why you would feel compelled to add something to your RVS vote, let alone that.

My second (and final) answer is that you did not think about it and just posted it and now you're backing away from it under the veil of WIFOM

.

You're right about the second part. I didn't give it much thought. My whole point in saying the blue part above is that you know I would have given it more thought if I was trying to stay under the radar.

Yes it's WIFOMy, but you're uniquely suited in this game to make an informed guess on what I would/would not do.

I do know this about you. However, at this point in the game, I would not know what information you are trying to conceal.

If you think I'm scum, then I would be trying to conceal that I am scum.

Why were you not more explicit with your reasoning for scumreading Titus? You only explained after I questioned why she appeared on your scumlist.

I gave very little explanation for any of the reads because:

[...]
Happy to discuss reads when I'm back in later.

This is what we're doing now. You'll note that in my answer to you at 326 that I answered based on my read at the time of the list. I didn't include her evasiveness to my questions or her attacks masquerading as questions.

Are you asking about Titus because you also scumread her? Why not ask about the townreads, too?

[EspressoPatronum]

If you think I'm scum, then I would be trying to conceal that I am scum.

True, but you would not not do something (read: you would do something) you thought concealed you as scum. It is possible that another explanation for the random comment about STRQ and policy is that you fully believed it to be your town meta to do such a thing. This is further supported by the fact that you admit you thought you policy voted a hydra in another game.

Ahh, I see. I could have sworn I've done a hydra policy vote, but I can't find one in any of my other games either.

It is possible that you were aware of that meta and thought detracting from that meta needed an explanation. You just happened to be wrong about your own meta.

I think we're in deep enough here that whatever I say will be WIFOM one way or another.

I trust that whatever your read of me becomes later in the game, the hydra voting thing will be one of many reasons for said read.

Are you asking about Titus because you also scumread her? Why not ask about the townreads, too?

I have a This Game answer and a Not This Game answer to this question.
This Game Answer: I think it is interesting that you both scumread one another.

Fair point. What do you think of Titus' reasoning?

And further, do you think my read of her questioning on me is accurate?

Not This Game Answer: I think it is easier to find scum by looking at their scumhunting, not their townhunting.
Addendum to the Not This Game: Scum are going to be necessarily correct when they call townies town. Probing a scum's mind for correctly townreading a townie seems like an exercise fit for a Lovecraft punishment. [...]

Re: the addendum -- I sometimes find it helpful to sort people based on their reasons for townreading (eg. Volpe's reason for townreading me in TM20). Your scumreads won't always be correct, so sometimes you can find town based on their town reads.

That being said, I know from MM2 that your specialty is looking for scum first. It makes sense that you'd therefore focus on your suspect's reasons for their scumreads.

[EspressoPatronum]

Titus... are you reading my posts?

[EspressoPatronum]

@eyestott -- what went into your decision for my flavour?

[EspressoPatronum]

Titus... are you reading my posts?

Do you feel like she's not? Can you point out an example?

Because in my case she was clearly not reading my posts but kind of pretending she is.

Because I've asked her several questions and she hasn't responded to any. She won't engage with me, yet insists I am scum. Also this:

Titus... are you reading my posts?

Yes. I just don't care to do a read wall for lock scum.

@Titus - I think you're scum but I'm still engaging with you. Can you do the same courtesy for me?

[EspressoPatronum]

Can someone explain to me why Alimdia is being so universally town read?

Page 9 was what did it for me

[EspressoPatronum]

I think I am warming up to an EP town read.

Bless

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm willing to swap to the Adorable wagon. I'll wait until after her claim before making it official.

[EspressoPatronum]

Titus, how is your vote still on me?

Better yet.... why is her vote not on me?? She's been trying to stir up a wagon on me all day.

[EspressoPatronum]

Titus, how is your vote still on me?

Better yet.... why is her vote not on me?? She's been trying to stir up a wagon on me all day.

Because that would be a tunnel. I have all the evidence I need for EP scum (no one TRs you, but no one will vote you). I have the rest of the game to solve and the rest of the town won't work with me, there's only so much I can do. I'll take out the scummiest slots protecting you instead.

In this case, that's Gobble in a landslide.

I have no interest in readwalling for you because there's two lockscum reads (EP and BP) , one probably scum read (Gobble), one backup read (RS) and the rest are town by PoE. Could I be wrong? Sure.

You're already deep in a tunnel. Tunneling is confirmation bias, or tunnel vision, and your vote has nothing to do with it. See the link below:
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?ti ... ation_Bias

Everything I do is confirming your misconception. You're actively resisting the only way I know how to get you out of that tunnel -- by engaging with you. So you're either town tunneling me hard or you're scum trying for a mislynch. In the event that I am wrong on the latter, I would like to engage with you to help correct the former.

If you insist on scumreading me this strongly without engaging in a good-faith dialogue, I ask that you at least do a blank-slate re-evaluation of me later.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Adorable

I had you as a townlean because I strongly disagree with Raven's methods. He did something similar to me (ie. A condescending push) when I was town and he was scum, so his push on you suggested your towniness to me.

Mastina, on the other hand, put forward a compelling case against you. She is the reason I am now willing to vote you.

If your wagon continues to grow, I highly suggest you ignore Titus' advice and claim. Egix has rightfully pointed out that claiming loses some of its usefulness in a role madness game, but I'm willing to wait for your claim until I make up my mind.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Titus - can you link me some of your town games? I tried to do a meta check, but you've been scum in every game I clicked, lol.

[EspressoPatronum]

@Titus - can you link me some of your town games? I tried to do a meta check, but you've been scum in every game I clicked, lol.

Try something a bit less ancient history. So almost any game this year that finished.

Such as?

[EspressoPatronum]

@Adorable

I had you as a townlean because I strongly disagree with Raven's methods. He did something similar to me (ie. A condescending push) when I was town and he was scum, so his push on you suggested your towniness to me.

Mastina, on the other hand, put forward a compelling case against you. She is the reason I am now willing to vote you.

If your wagon continues to grow, I highly suggest you ignore Titus' advice and claim. Egix has rightfully pointed out that claiming loses some of its usefulness in a role madness game, but I'm willing to wait for your claim until I make up my mind.

If anyone doubts this is scum, just read these interactions.

EP: I townread Adorable.
Also EP: Claim, then I'll vote you.
Also Also EP: Mastina's regurgitated case is suddenly compelling after the hydra (now Gobble) leaves the game.
Also Also Also EP: My mind isn't made up.

EP just wants Adorable's claim.

The blatant mischaracterization is getting old.

[EspressoPatronum]

EspressoPatronum

Are you saying in 446 that Raven used a condescending push against you here?

As in this game?

In MM2 as Miss Lynch.

[EspressoPatronum]

EspressoPatronum

Are you saying in 446 that Raven used a condescending push against you here?

As in this game?

In MM2 as Miss Lynch.

Why would Enter’s habit there make Adorable town here? Do you think Enter only uses a condescending push against town?

Upon deeper consideration, a condescending push can come from town or scum, and that's probably Enter's general style.

At the time, however, it would be accurate to say my Adorable townlean was more a product of sympathy (to Adorable) or spite (to Enter).

[EspressoPatronum]

The blatant mischaracterization is getting old.

Can you point out how this summary is a mischaracterization of your posting?

Reasons below. In addition to this, she's been painting my early Chronos vote as an excuse to move off my BP vote. A short glimpse of my ISO should make it clear that my vote on Chronos was sparked by (1) her interactions with STRQ at the time, and (2) her intent to lurk. I dislike lurkers and I frequently advocate for their lynch if town can't come to a consensus (note - @Gobble... I'm

sure

of this one. Lurkers came.up in MM2, CoaLITion, and I'm sure some others)


Back to Titus' most recent post. She said:

If anyone doubts this is scum, just read these interactions.

EP: I townread Adorable.

Also EP: Claim, then I'll vote you.

Also Also EP: Mastina's regurgitated case is suddenly compelling after the hydra (now Gobble) leaves the game.

Also Also Also EP: My mind isn't made up.

EP just wants Adorable's claim

.

I bolded the parts to which I will respond.

"EP: I townread Adorable"

Here's where I'm at rn.

Town
Alimdia
Mastina*

Townlean
Chronos

Adorable

STRQ**
Eyestott
[...]

As you can see in the reads list, I townread Alimdia and Mastina. I have a townlean on the others.

While it is true that a townlean is effectively a light townread, Titus is painting it as though I suddenly dropped Adorable from the top of my list to the bottom.

Also EP: Claim, then I'll vote you.

Also Also Also EP: My mind isn't made up.

I'm willing to swap to the Adorable wagon. I'll wait until after her claim before making it official.

@Adorable
[...]
If your wagon continues to grow, I highly suggest you ignore Titus' advice and claim. Egix has rightfully pointed out that claiming loses some of its usefulness in a role madness game, but I'm willing to wait for your claim until I make up my mind.

408 and 446 should make it clear that my vote on Adorable depends on what her claim is. If I didn't care about Adorable's claim, I would have just voted her at 408.

Titus' post makes it out like I was going to vote Adorable regardless of her claim but then I suddenly became unsure.

EP just wants Adorable's claim

I care about Adorable's claim insofar as it relates to the size of her wagon. At the time of posting 446, I believe Adorable was at L-3, with my vote as a possible L-2. That's why advised Adorable to claim "if [her] wagon continues to grow...."

If Titus was right and I just wanted Adorable's claim, it would have been easier for me to vote her to increase the pressure.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

What are your current reads?

Reads below. Why did 431 make you want a reads list?

Town

Alimdia
Gobble
Mastina*
Chronos

Townlean

Eyestott
Churros

Null

(no order)
Suji
Rabid Schauzer
BP

Scumlean

Adorable

Scum

Egix
Titus


*Turns out the howling is role-related, but mastina has been open about it. I no longer think the howling is related to her being a WW.

[EspressoPatronum]

It's not really a mischaracterization. It's pretty accurate.
[...]

What are your thoughts in light of 481?

Do you agree or disagree, and why?

[EspressoPatronum]

Wagonomics suggest Egix is going for a fast lynch in D1. He's been late on all of the big wagons except STRQ's.

VC 1.2

EspressoPatronum (4) - Team STRQ, mastina, Chronos, Egix96

Chronos (2) - eyestott, BP
BSG (1) - EspressoPatronum
Adorable (1) - alimdia
Team STRQ (1) - Rabid Schnauzer
BP (1) - Titus

Not voting: BSG, Shadowlesscloud, Adorable

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2020-04-02 21:40:44) or when a lynch is reached.

Egix joined on me for aforementioned shaky reasons. He doesn't change until the Adorable wagon picks up steam:

VC 1.9

gobbledygook (3) - Adorable, Titus, Rabid Schnauzer
Adorable (3) - mastina, eyestott, gobbledygook
eyestott (2) - alimdia, Churros
Egix96 (2) - Chronos, EspressoPatronum
Chronos (1) - BP
EspressoPatronum (1) - Egix96

Not voting: Sujimichi

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2020-04-03 22:45:00) or when a lynch is reached.

mastina is V/LA until March 31, 2020

alimida is V/LA until March 31, 2020

VC 1.10

Adorable (4) - mastina, eyestott, Egix96, Rabid Schnauzer

gobbledygook (2) - Adorable, Titus
Egix96 (2) - Chronos, EspressoPatronum
Titus (2) - Churros, gobbledygook
eyestott (1) - alimdia
Chronos (1) - BP

Not voting: Sujimichi

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 will end in (expired on 2020-04-03 22:45:00) or when a lynch is reached.

mastina is V/LA until March 31, 2020

alimida is V/LA until March 31, 2020

While the VCA doesn't perfectly capture it, Egix joined the Adorable wagon to put it at L-2 (at 402). Gobble left the wagon shortly after.

[EspressoPatronum]

@EP, That's pointless unless you are suggesting that Gobble and Egix are partners.[...]

I don't think the VCA suggests that at all. Why do you think it does?

[EspressoPatronum]

@EP, That's pointless unless you are suggesting that Gobble and Egix are partners.[...]

I don't think the VCA suggests that at all. Why do you think it does?

Egix looking for a fast lynch otherwise is NAI and time wasting.

Limiting the amount of information generated in D1 (or any day, really) is a net win for scum.

You misinterpreted my question though. I'm asking why you think the VCA could suggest a Gobble + Egix pairing.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

Fair point. What do you think of Titus' reasoning? And further, do you think my read of her questioning on me is accurate?

1. I am a little surprised at the intensity and severity of Titus's play thus far in the game. I do not think that there is much to Titus's reasoning (EP's vote from BP to Chronos). I feel like Titus might be stuck in a tunnel when it comes to you.
2. When I read this question, I drew a blank on what your read of her questioning meant. I looked through your iso and I still cannot explain what "[your] read of her questioning" is referring to. Can you link it?

1. The other answer is she's just scum. What's your meta read of her? Is she normally like this as town? With the exception of MM2, I don't think I've played with her.
2. I linked you the relevant posts in a spoiler below. In sum, I think her questions to me are actually just shade/attacks.

Re: the addendum -- I sometimes find it helpful to sort people based on their reasons for townreading (eg. Volpe's reason for townreading me in TM20). Your scumreads won't always be correct, so sometimes you can find town based on their town reads.

What do you look for when analyzing an individual's reasons for a townread?
[...]

Mostly the genuineness of the read. I find it easier when I'm the subject of said townread, but it can sometimes work on others.

Since scum already know who is town, they sometimes oversell a townread without sufficient reasons.

Does anyone have any modern covers of older songs that I could listen to? I like listening to music when I do dives into games.

What genre?

----

Re: Titus' questions/shade.

Spoiler:

EP, why do you just float on various forms of OMGUS? First Chronos now Egix.

I would like to note at the outset that

[Titus'] "question" here is really more of an attack

, but I'll answer it anyway.
[...]

[...]
Happy to discuss reads when I'm back in later.

This is what we're doing now. You'll note that in my answer to you at 326 that I answered based on my read at the time of the list.

I didn't include her evasiveness to my questions or her attacks masquerading as questions.

[...]

[EspressoPatronum]

post 383, EspressoPatronum"]@eyestott -- what went into your decision for my flavour?

Not a whole lot. I'm sorry your flavour is so bland, but I tried make sure that no two players flavour roles were more or less connected than any other pair.

Thank you. I have some follow-up questions.

1. Did you struggle with anyone else's flavour?

2. Regarding my flavour, why did you choose this specific flavour? I understand that you wanted to avoid overlap, but that doesn't actually answer how/why you chose mine.

3. What hint would you have given to me if your plan wasn't foiled?

[EspressoPatronum]

aka is that the extent of your role.
Since you seem to be hinging on the reasoning that you must be town because your role is 'weak'

I did promise I’d be completely honest. I am an

informed

role flavourer. Im not sure whether the information is completely useless, or if revealing it may bring one of the anti town factions closer to victory somehow.

I would definitely prefer to not have to reveal it now, but if you ask me again, I will tell the truth.

Before you reveal the information itself, can you first reveal the type of information you know? Eg. If you know roles of specific people, say "I know people's roles" before you actually say their roles.

No need to do so yet, but consider doing that before a full information reveal.

[EspressoPatronum]

How can I help by not reading today?

If you do a quick ISO of me, Titus, and Adorable, you'll have most of the information necessary for current events.

STRQ(now gobble) was a possibility earlier today, but STRQ had a ton of long posts. It'd be easier for you to just look at gobble's stuff for now.

[EspressoPatronum]

@pisskop
Re: the above -- if you want to cut down on necessary reading, you can probably just read some of mastina's recent posting for the case against Adorable. You can look at specific parts if Adorable's posts from there.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Adorable

I feel better about this now that she has replaced out of the game.

Why did her replacing change your feeling about the vote?

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]
@Espresso why are you not voting her when from your POV she probably should be #1 suspect?[...]

There's still a part of me that's worried she's a tunneling town because I'm struggling to see why scum!Titus comes at me so strongly for such weak reasons. My efforts at getting a hand on learning her meta were... rebuffed, to put it nicely.

I'll go onto Titus if the Adorable wagon loses steam. I'm just waiting for Adorable's claim before I decide on moving it.

[EspressoPatronum]

Due to site issues, the deadline has been extended by a day.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2020-04-06 07:00:00) or when a lynch is reached.

Thanks, TL. It's taking me at least 5 mins to get into games, and sometimes the site just doesn't load.

I'm going to lock in a more useful vote in the event that the issues persists to EOD.
VOTE: Titus

[EspressoPatronum]

Happy to move onto RS. His ISO is underwhelming.

I'd like a claim before we get any closer to hammer range though.

[EspressoPatronum]

Why are you voting EP?

Titus made a good case.

What exactly do you find compelling about the case?

Also, what is your answer to 486?

[EspressoPatronum]

Why are you voting EP?

Titus made a good case.

What exactly do you find compelling about the case?

Three things:
- Fence riding on Adorable
- Role fishing on adorable
- Calling Titus's observation of such as mischaracterization

Also, what is your answer to 486?

You seem to think that 408 and 446 make you look good. They don't. They look to me like scum setting up to make a vote down the line without committing to a push

now

.

"I'm willing to swap to the Adorable wagon. I'll wait until after her claim before making it official."

That's scummy af.

It feels like you didn't read the entirety of my 486 mischaracterization post. That or maybe you skimmed it.

I wanted Adorable to claim if her wagon got larger. I asked the same of you before swapping, too. If Titus' wagon got bigger after my vote, I would have asked her to claim as well. Calling that role fishing is inaccurate.

408 and 446 are two of several examples to show how Titus' post mischaracterized me. I understand that my willingness to consolidate on wagons has been viewed as scummy before (eg. mainstream mafia II), but that's not what those posts were meant to address. 406 and 446 specifically show that I was asking Adorable to claim before I committed to lynching her. Titus made it seems like I changed my mind between 406 and 446, which is a mischaracterization.

[EspressoPatronum]

Extra extra read all about it!

Ep scum game hot off the presses!

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=82341

As an important note -- this is a scumgame with me as mafia and

several

other scum factions. My scumhunting is genuine throughout most of the game.

The true scumminess came out after Kerset dayvigged CSF + I thought I was the last scum remaining.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: EP

Et tu, Brute?

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: EP

Et tu, Brute?

What part of recent events made you change your vote onto me?

Was it the conclusion of the Greatest Idea IX game?

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]
Though on that note.

I'd like a claim before we get any closer to hammer range though.

Just going to point out:
We wagoned Adorable up to L-2, and then, we let the slot off the hook without claiming.
We wagoned Rabid up to L-2, and then, again, we are potentially risking letting the slot off the hook without claiming.

Later into the game. On D2, D3, D4.
Y'all are going to look back on that situation and go.
"Why the fuck didn't we force them to claim."

Agreed. I support people claiming, but I'd like to get the claims before hammering is a real threat. I'm not sure why the wagons dissolved so quickly at L-2.

Given the setup, we'll probably just do a massclaim by the time we get to that D3/D4 point.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Rabid Schnauzer

Back to L-2. I will reassess my vote after RS's claim.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

FWIW I'm a 1X neighborizer. Since I'm town it's worthless per se, but I thought that I'd save it and at least be able to check if someone later claimed ascetic or hider or something.

This be a scumclaim.

Why do you think this?

Wouldn't scum in RS's shoes claim loyal neighbourizer to later fake a guilty? His plain neighbourizer claim seems more town imo.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Titus

[EspressoPatronum]

Actually, as much as I want a Titus wagon, it's probably too late to start one today.

VOTE: Egix

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

FWIW I'm a 1X neighborizer. Since I'm town it's worthless per se, but I thought that I'd save it and at least be able to check if someone later claimed ascetic or hider or something.

This be a scumclaim.

Why do you think this?

Wouldn't scum in RS's shoes claim loyal neighbourizer to later fake a guilty? His plain neighbourizer claim seems more town imo.

In a game like this it's practically a VT claim though.
Also, I'm not actually sure whether the "This" in mastna's post refers to Rabid's post, or pkop's.

Also, I'm not actually sure whether the "This" in mastna's post refers to Rabid's post, or pkop's.

Yeah, rereading it I see what you mean.

"This" in 689 refers to mastina's post.

As a general rule, I try to respond to people with quotes unless my response can stand by itself in my ISO. It helps readers remember the context of my posts when/if they do an ISO of me later in the game.

[EspressoPatronum]

We weren't talking about your this.

Ahh, I see. The 'this' in "this be a scumclaim."

I believe mastina is talking about your neighbourizer claim, as her sentence follows immediately after the quote of your claim.

[EspressoPatronum]

I’m a duplicater. After targeting me a persons action is doubled

Do you mean a 1-shot is doubled to 2-shot, or that an action taken on you can be repeated again in the same night on someone else?

[EspressoPatronum]

Time is running out + I'd rather not risk a no-lynch.

VOTE: RS

[EspressoPatronum]

@gobble any word about your role? We need an answer by EOD.

We can get a lot of value out of your role, but we need to know if it turns 1x into 2x or acts as a duplication for that night's action. In either case, you're essentially a free target for investigatives, docs, and other utility roles. We just need to make sure we're sending the right people to you (ie. That 1xs don't waste their ability on you).

[EspressoPatronum]

EP if you are one shot and you target me tonight then the next night you have two shots

I'm not a 1-shot role, but

everyone else with a 1-shot

should capitalize on this.

[EspressoPatronum]

RS is lynched barring a lie somewhere. It's twilight. Post fast.

Fast

[EspressoPatronum]

EP if you are one shot and you target me tonight then the next night you have two shots

This doesn't make sense, wouldn't he have 1 shot because.. he used a shot?

That's what I would assume, too.

But maybe it gives two new uses? If it works like gobble implies in 741, it would presumably make a 2x into a 4x, into an 8x, etc...

[EspressoPatronum]

Rabid Schnauzer has been lynched! He was

You Know Nothing, John Sno-oh-oh-oh-oh

, Town 1-Shot Neighborizer

mastina has died during the night. She was

Plz Don't Scumread Me, I Swear I'm Town, Mastina!

, Town Moonlight Dancer

[...]

Titus has been flavor revealed! Her flavor is Look At All Those Chickens.

Two questions for

eyestott

1. Am I correct that RS+mastina's flavour is the underlined portion of their flip?
2. What type of information do you know?

Thus far, I am struggling to see how any of your provided flavour is useful to us.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Sujimichi

I apologize in advance.

Care to elaborate?

[EspressoPatronum]

Mastina scumread you [Suji] yesterday. I’m carrying on her wishes

Turkey + eyestott + Titus

Chronos + Churros + alimidia

Egix96


EspressoPatronum + Sujimichi




Rabid Schnauzer
Adorable/momo
BP/pisskop


Locktown, strong town, weak town, null, then scumreads.

VOTE: Gobble

[EspressoPatronum]

Mastina scumread you [Suji] yesterday. I’m carrying on her wishes

Turkey + eyestott + Titus

Chronos + Churros + alimidia

Egix96


EspressoPatronum + Sujimichi




Rabid Schnauzer
Adorable/momo
BP/pisskop


Locktown, strong town, weak town, null, then scumreads.

VOTE: Gobble

Why does this warrant a vote on gobbledygook?

He spent the better part of yesterday on me, pisskop, and RS. Upon this day's start, he gave up on me and pisskop to push you in the name of mastina. My issue with this is twofold:

1. Mastina was clear on her progression of your slot. She had you as a null by end of day (as we have demonstrated), so gobble's stated reasoning for voting you is false. It seems he is not masking a role-related reason for voting you, as he denied targeting you in 768.

2. I recall him being more transparent with his votes in past games, so his lack of transparency in voting me yesterday and you today stuck out. I see no legitimate reason for Gobble to naked vote you without providing reasons for swapping from pisskop or me. My guess is he was trying to get a quick vote out to test the waters on your before people started getting more active.

[EspressoPatronum]

I don't want to vote Titus yet though, I'm considering who to vote in [Titus, Momo, Pisskop]

I think it would be best to hear from Eyestott re: his information before voting Titus. We know Titus' flavour now, so hopefully Eyestott can help give that some meaning.

Why momo?

@Suji - same to you. Why momo?

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: EP

Et tu, Brute?

What part of recent events made you change your vote onto me?

Was it the conclusion of the Greatest Idea IX game?

@gobble

[EspressoPatronum]

@Suji - why didn't you vote yesterday?

[EspressoPatronum]

Suji - same to you. Why momo?

A few reason:

1. Adorable’s contribution to the game and response to mastina’s tunnel on her slot.
   
2. mastina’s read and case on Adorable
   
3. The voting formation surrounding Adorable and Rabid Schnauzer (and you) and resulting reveal of Rabid Schnauzer.
   
4. The tone of Momo’s posts

I can expand on each point as necessary, however I am on mobile currently.

Thanks for this. Good point about #3. I was mostly looking to the later VCs to see if scum was resisting any wagons by maintaining the RS lynch, but the RS wagon as an alternative to a scum!Adorable/momo wagon makes sense.

What do you make of the other VCs? Since I was a potential wagon yesterday, I am interested to see what information I can glean from the counterwagons. Assuming you were me and you were confirmed town, what information could you take from the VCs?

@Titus

- same question to you, as I know you like wagonomics.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: EP

Et tu, Brute?

What part of recent events made you change your vote onto me?

Was it the conclusion of the Greatest Idea IX game?

@gobble

No, it wasn’t. It was the fact that the game stagnated around RS lynch which seemed to indicate town. When no one moved to you, or anyone else, I think it’s scum indicative the other option is scum.

But why did you swap to me? Swapping off of RS due to stagnation explains why you swapped off of him, but not why you chose me.

When you say 'other option,' are you referring to RS or me?

[EspressoPatronum]

@Gobble

I chose you because there’s still something fishy to me about you. I can’t really get over the weird self meta you did that ended up being wrong lol.

Fair point here. The self-meta being wrong is weird + I have no better explanation than what I've stated earlier.

I also didn’t like how you later had a self meta comment directed at me. That felt pockety.

Interesting. Given your 'behind the scenes' look at my gameplay via mason chat in MM2 + our TM20 chat, I am curious why this pinged you. Do you think my comment was wrong or misplaced? Can you expand on this, please?

Plus Titus was on you so I felt safe sheeping her. Maybe this is what it is like to play against you without knowing your alignment

Why did you feel safe sheeping Titus.

None

of your gameplay thus far indicates that you felt Titus was trustworthy. Why did you change your mind + find her opinion on me sheep-worthy? For your convenience, I have included a selection of your posts regarding Titus.

Spoiler: You evidently did not trust Titus

I find it very strange that Titus would not want to work with me after TvA and even after I caught up and others raised their opinions about me she still left her vote on me.

Her asking to start a wagon on EP seems like she’s trying to test the waters for an EP vote hop.

VOTE: Titus

[...]

Titus

I am still having trouble parsing this.
Could you point to my interactions with EP that show I have not been sorting him? Out of all the slots in the game, I would say that I have been trying to sort him the most. We were fantastic mason partners in Mainstream Mafia II and we worked well together in Team Mafia 2020.

Scum Core: Die
- Titus
- Rabid Schnauzer
- Egix96
- EspressoPatronum

This scum core is another reason I don't trust you Gobbles.

Your scumcore is my two scumreads, me, and the one other guy voting EP. Your pool is about distancing from EP but shading those who want him dead.

Your interactions might as well be a neon sign of scum with EP and BP. I don't let people have their cake and eat it too.

But you know I am scumhunting. That's the rub. You may not agree with my methods, but you know I am using them. You know this is how I hunt from T v A as well

You expect too much of me. I have the memory of a goldfish. When it comes to things, I can't really remember anything. People get mad at me for asking a lot of questions, some of the time being redundant or already asked questions, but it is because I have a super terrible memory.
I do not really remember the specifics of your scumhunting.

I do remember your tone though. It is much harsher here.

[...]

I do remember thinking that Titus’s comments on being able to do the Adorable wagon could be scum not wanting to commit to a scum buddy.

By other option I am saying as the day drew near the end, your wagon sat at 3 votes for a while and no one joined it. Meanwhile people were joining the RS wagon.

Who is the "other option" specifically? You said it was scum indicative of the "other wagon" ... did you think it was scum indicative of me that nobody joined my wagon, or scum indicative of RS that nobody joined my wagon?

I need to relook at it. My vote is probably not in the right place right now, but until Suji does things he did in Skyrim uPick im comfortable keeping it here and getting others to add it. Suji targeting Mastina with an invention or a fruit seems like a pocket attempt too.

I still find your naked vote on Suji strange. Why not say these things when I asked you initially?

Churros remains my top townread.

Pisskop looks pretty bad too and is a good vote.

Noted. Thank you.

------

If Greatest Idea IX had no bearing on your vote on me, why did you post this shortly after voting me? What was your goal here?

Extra extra read all about it!

Ep scum game hot off the presses!

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=82341

[EspressoPatronum]

With my suspicion of Egix and gobble, Titus' earlier post is making a lot more sense now:

@EP, That's pointless unless you are suggesting that Gobble and Egix are partners.[...]

I don't think the VCA suggests that at all. Why do you think it does?

Egix looking for a fast lynch otherwise is NAI and time wasting.

Limiting the amount of information generated in D1 (or any day, really) is a net win for scum.

You misinterpreted my question though. I'm asking why you think the VCA could suggest a Gobble + Egix pairing.

Unless Gobble plus Egix is a team, then Egix targeting any wagon is just a playstyle diversion and OMGUS.

If my recollection serves, I don't think gobble went onto Egix yesterday. This would further solidify the fact that Egix and gobble have been avoiding each other's wagons. It's possible he is now bussing Egix.

I'm happy to vote Egix today. If he flips scum, we should seriously consider gobble next.

[EspressoPatronum]

Rabid Schnauzer has been lynched! He was

You Know Nothing, John Sno-oh-oh-oh-oh

, Town 1-Shot Neighborizer

mastina has died during the night. She was

Plz Don't Scumread Me, I Swear I'm Town, Mastina!

, Town Moonlight Dancer

[...]

Titus has been flavor revealed! Her flavor is Look At All Those Chickens.

Two questions for

eyestott

1. Am I correct that RS+mastina's flavour is the underlined portion of their flip?
2. What type of information do you know?

Thus far, I am struggling to see how any of your provided flavour is useful to us.

1: Yes, that is correct.
2: I mentioned it yesterday. I had prior knowledge of the existence of the role that revealed Titus' role last night. I only knew the name of the role, not how it worked.

Ahh I see. I didn't realize 704 was you telling us your informed information.

I guess I was expecting flavour to have more of an impact or some connection to the roles, so I was puzzled with the disconnect between role and flavour thus far.

[EspressoPatronum]

@gobble why do you now think I am town?

[EspressoPatronum]

@gobble why do you now think I am town?

I think your scumhunting today is more in line with what I’m used to seeing from you.
Do you agree with Momo’s wagon analysis on me? I think it makes little sense since one of the vote counts is me basically starting a wagon, going to another wagon I called scum early in the day, and then having to deadline lynch RS. I think it is really stretching the truth to fit a narrative. What do you think of Titus?[...]

My thoughts on momo's analysis

I agree with momo's analysis. You voted RS long before it was a deadline lynch (you voted RS, me, then deadlined RS), and you have previously stated that your swap to me was mostly a sheep of Titus rather than your own scumreading of me. You accuse momo of stretching the truth to fit the narrative, but I think you might be downplaying the truth to fit your own.

I somehow missed 321 earlier, but I would expect you to remember that MM2 opened with a governor vote, not a vote to lynch. If that is what cause your initial scumread of me, I am even more skeptical than I was before.

My thoughts on Titus

I am leaning towards town on Titus now. I had a lot of trouble yesterday reconciling Titus' push on me with a town playstyle, but upon further reflection, I had even more trouble reconciling her aggressive push with a scum playstyle. In addition, her play today seems more typical of a townie.

-----

EP, what are your thoughts on the major wagons and comparing them to day 1. I need to check whether it's new names on mono as opposed to the Adorable wagon. I'm asking you because we're essentially tiebreakers.

I'm leaning on voting Egix.

Adorable/momo

The strange thing for me here was that I came around to scumreading Adorable, but I townread momo. I find myself agreeing with a lot of momo's reads and analysis. As well, I know we aren't supposed to read into replacing in/out, but the timing of Adorable's replacing out makes me think she was town. I'm trying not to give this much weight, but it's a thought in the back of my mind.

As a note - Egix was on Adorable/momo yesterday, but Suji is new to the wagon.

Egix

I dislike his votes yesterday (as mentioned previously), and I'm starting to see some Egix + gobble cooperation. Voting out Egix would allow me to vote out a scumread while also testing my Egix+gobble theory.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]Chronos why one-liners since getting widely town read?

+1.
@Chronos. What is your reasoning for voting Egix? What do you think of momo's analysis of gobble's votes?

[EspressoPatronum]

I will say that if anyone targeted me last night they also targeted Egix.
My role is not role duplicater. I am actually a beam splitter. I crumbed it in my first post with the Pink Floyd music video.

I claimed the role duplicater so people would have a reason to target me.

Interesting, lol. I was wondering why you thought the duplicator had negative utility. I can see how a beam splitter could have negative utility.

Is this why you said:

I apologize in advance.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: pisskop

Is anyone TRing him at all? He's coasting, doing nothing which is exactly what his prior slot did.

I'm not TRing him, but I recall pisskop's scum game being more active. He was quite involved as scum in Mainstream Mafia II. I don't think I've played any other games with him though.

I'm more inclined to vote Egix today. I will consider going with you on pisskop tomorrow if I'm wrong on Egix.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Egix L-2

[EspressoPatronum]

If Chronos continues to coast, we should look at her more closely tomorrow.

[EspressoPatronum]

EP, why are you voting on a wagon you completely scumread everyone on?

Gobble is my only SR on it. Alimdia is one of my top town + Chronos used to be up there, too. Chronos is more null town now + is subject to change based on her future participation (or lacktherof).

To answer @Gobble's question, too... if I'm right about Egix + gobble, I know that gobble has no problem bussing a scum buddy. He did it to nsg in TM20 despite it being a white flag game.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: pisskop

Is anyone TRing him at all? He's coasting, doing nothing which is exactly what his prior slot did.

I'm not TRing him, but I recall pisskop's scum game being more active. He was quite involved as scum in Mainstream Mafia II. I don't think I've played any other games with him though.

I'm more inclined to vote Egix today. I will consider going with you on pisskop tomorrow if I'm wrong on Egix.

pisskop was lurky the last two times I played with him as scum. Generally he is active though.
Why are you more comfortable with Egix despite the fact that I am on him and also was your biggest suspect coming into today?

Answered above. Can you link me the pisskop games you're referring to?

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: pisskop

Is anyone TRing him at all? He's coasting, doing nothing which is exactly what his prior slot did.

VOTE: pisskop

Is anyone TRing him at all? He's coasting, doing nothing which is exactly what his prior slot did.

I'm not TRing him, but I recall pisskop's scum game being more active. He was quite involved as scum in Mainstream Mafia II. I don't think I've played any other games with him though.

I'm more inclined to vote Egix today. I will consider going with you on pisskop tomorrow if I'm wrong on Egix.

If Chronos continues to coast, we should look at her more closely tomorrow.

HOw did pisskop become Chronos?

Those posts are separate. I agree with Titus that pisskop is coasting, but I was saying in 850 that Chronos is coasting.

Also, everyones coasting man, incl me lol

Your activity may be lower, but look at Chronos' activity today. She has 3 or 4 posts that are no more than a few words. I recall her being quiet towards the end of D1, too.

I don't think that makes her scum, but she certainly looks less towny as a result.

[EspressoPatronum]

Churros, what is it about today that makes you think Egix is town?

I think I wasn't clear. When I saw scum!Egix play, I distinctly remember my scum radar going off on him in the first few pages. His posting seemed...very forced, and his whole nature political not necessarily in his play but also in his tone. It felt like a pseudo-intelectual trying to put up a show of being someone balanced and trustworthy. I don't necessarily town read the slot, I just don't think it's as bad as people are making it out to be.
[...]
EP says that he's now town reading momo and votes Egix anyway.

[...]

Could you link me the relevant scum games you're talking about here? I'd like to look them over to see what you mean.

What's wrong with me townreading momo and voting Egix?

I don't like EP going soft on Titus either. It looks more like scum flaking now that Titus is pushing him less than a real read.

Titus was on your ass 24/7 yesterday but only after she goes a bit silent on you, you realize that her aggressiveness can be town-indicative?

(by the way it's definitely not from my experience, scum!titus cases are always horseshit for me while town!Titus cases are more understandable, another reason I was SR the slot)

With all due respect I don't feel scum!Titus knows how to push her cases other than being loud about weird logic. At least it's what I saw from large theme heroes mafia and another game which I don't remember the name.

I dunno, I just feel like town is more willing to change up their reads for little to no reasons. In addition to finding Titus' actions more likely town than scum, her dramatic shift on me today felt towny. Scum!Titus probably could have kept gunning for me, but she randomly decided to start working with me a bit today.

As above, can you link the Heroes Mafia game for me?

__________

One more question to you, though others can chime in too. What do you make of the general apathy for the wagons today? I can't make out if today has been slow due to game-related reasons or out-of-game reasons (ie. quarantining).

[EspressoPatronum]

I'd like it if we pushed a wagon through before the EOD clock gets too close. In the event of a mislynch, I'd rather not give scum the chance to use the "I was forced to vote X because EOD" excuse.

________

@Bingle - what's your read on gobble?

[EspressoPatronum]

is it too late to out the neighourbood or was that already done alim?

Why did you want to out your hood?

[EspressoPatronum]

is it too late to out the neighourbood or was that already done alim?

theres a hood?

well guess it's out there now

alim's been really frustrated in there recently from reading through - i kinda feel bad for him honestly. what did you guys do?

It's not a hood, its a masonry smh.

Thnx for outing tho :v

Oof.

Did you crumb the masonry and/or establish some way of proving you were in a masonry if one of you died? I cant find anything on a skim of you and Suji. If you did, can you direct me to the posts(s)?

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Momo I believe that's L-1

[EspressoPatronum]

survivalism. I think momo has better odds, at least.

Id do momo if it keeps me alive.

I actually like your shamelessness tbh

I've seen you be smarter than that as scum

VOTE: momo

I'm mulling over if we should leash your or not, but you definitely always shot tonight.

What's your N1 result?

You either come to momo or I lynch you because we're not doing Egix today.

I like these two posts.

____________

@pk you could track gobble tonight to get a double result

[EspressoPatronum]

Spoiler: unrelated content to this game

Don’t feel bad.
I spent most of every day since Wednesday a week and a bit ago, preparing to run a Pathfinder Campaign which started tonight. (And got so much interest from friends I have a second group starting the same campaign tomorrow night), so everyone has busy times.[...]

Congrats on starting up a pathfinder game! How'd session 1 go?

I just finished playing in a D&D campaign recently. We're going to start Descent into Avernus next month!

Btw, if you're interested in joining some forum D&D, check out chkflip's viewtopic.php?f=10&t=82473

[EspressoPatronum]

I mean, a redflip does kind of clear me

How so?

It's at least safe to say Egix/pk isn't S/S. I can't see a scumteam sitting back for so long while one scum is a leading wagon and the other is the counterwagon.

I like the idea of an EOD flash wagon bcz it gives scum less time to react to it. Fingers crossed it worked out!

[EspressoPatronum]

I support a full claim today.

If we're actually in mylo, I'd prefer if the JOAT confirmed eyestott's story.

[EspressoPatronum]

On another note, I'd also like to discuss the merits of eyestott fullclaiming everyone's flavour. Everyone could then confirm/deny that is their flavour. I'm struggling to see the point in the nightly flavour reveals, so maybe there's more than eyestott is letting on.

@gobble - who did you target last night?

[EspressoPatronum]

@Titus, what's your read on gobble?

[EspressoPatronum]

Yeah I would lynch pisskop probably without a massclaim, but I think massclaim is necessary

I would rather keep the other mason hidden. We need the joat to claim. Then tmo we can talk about mass claim. If the other mason dies, I'll be on board with massclaim.

Outing the other mason might buy the JOAT more time alive. It'd force scum to pick between them.

[EspressoPatronum]

It is like so incredibly obvious who the mailer is and this is exactly the type of play they do lol

It's not obvious to me.

I have a good idea about the identity of the other mason, but nothing is standing our wrt to the mailer.

[EspressoPatronum]

Yeah I would lynch pisskop probably without a massclaim, but I think massclaim is necessary

I would rather keep the other mason hidden. We need the joat to claim. Then tmo we can talk about mass claim. If the other mason dies, I'll be on board with massclaim.

Outing the other mason might buy the JOAT more time alive. It'd force scum to pick between them.

Revealing the mason gives scum a roadmap to kill. A hidden mason in lylo or stopping their own mislynch is more valuable.

Hiding my last mason was something I did to great success in T v A. Scum just were literally out of mislynches because we coordinated.

Fair point. If we don't end up massclaiming and if the mason makes it far, we're leaving it up to the mason to win a counterclaim scenario. I suppose they'll have to assess their chances there and plan accordingly.

I'd prefer the massclaim option for non-mason reasons though. The flavour provided eyestott has no apparent mechanical purpose, yet the flavour keeps getting publicly revealed every night. Knowing the roles left in the game could help us piece together the usefulness of the flavour.

My tinfoil theories are: (1) scum can't kill targets with revealed flavour, or maybe (2) there's a 3p here that can only target people if they know their target's flavour.

[EspressoPatronum]

I wouldnt read too much into the flavor thing tbh. Given mastin's role and this apparent joat flavor seems to be a theme.

Eyestott's entire role was to provide flavour + he also said he's informed about a flavour investigative. Not reading into flavour here means we must accept that eyestott and the investigative are effectively VTs.

What do you mean by JOAT flavour?

[EspressoPatronum]

Weve seen zero evidence of a 3p

Emphasis on

tinfoil

theory.

[EspressoPatronum]

Intent to vote pisskop. Not sure if it's at L-2 or L-1 now so imma hold off on actually voting.

We should definitely do claims tomorrow if we don't do them today.

[EspressoPatronum]

I wouldnt read too much into the flavor thing tbh. Given mastin's role and this apparent joat flavor seems to be a theme.

Eyestott's entire role was to provide flavour + he also said he's informed about a flavour investigative. Not reading into flavour here means we must accept that eyestott and the investigative are effectively VTs.

What do you mean by JOAT flavour?

I mean, there's a theme around flavour, but I doubt it affect kills or etc

What would you say the theme around the flavour is?

[EspressoPatronum]

I really think today is the day to fullclaim, given all the claim shenanigans going on right now

[EspressoPatronum]

But at the same time, if the JOAT is who I think it is, I'm fairly confident in just killing pk. Hats off to them if they're actually scum and planned this from D2.

I'm a little sus of gobble's attempt to stir up an eyestott wagon. If pk flips scum, gobble should be next.

[EspressoPatronum]

For clarity -- "Hats off to them" being to the hypothetical scum!JOAT

[EspressoPatronum]

Here's a wild idea:

Eyestott is a ROLE flavourer. What if he added flavour for each ROLE instead of each PERSON + he's been trying to figure out who has what flavour?!

I say we make eyestott fullclaim the flavour of each PERSON. He's done a few hints thus far, but not all of them have been targeted at the right person. I'll post an example below:

[EspressoPatronum]

Eyestott, I agree with the assessment that you've been present but not doing much at all. Why isn't this suspicious of you?

I promise, all will be answered before the end of the day, so do please bear with me. I have a plan. Do you think you have any idea what I'm trying to do, Tai (or anyone in STRQ, or really anyone in general)? This is a very important question to me. If you do, don't actually say, please. Just need some confirmation.
In the meantime, here is my favourite vine
Reads coming soon.

He sent this photo to STRQ/gobble, but we now know that this is Titus' flavour! If he was trying to convince STRQ/gobble of the flavour, why wouldn't he post something from 'Never Gonna Give You Up?'

I'm almost certain he knows mine* and Egix's, but I'm not convinced he knows everyone else's.

*He gave me an accurate hint. It's possible that he threw out several different hints + I just caught the one relevant to me.

[EspressoPatronum]

then he would know who scum os beforehand and could easily serup beeak?

Role not faction.

But who says he isn't scum?

[EspressoPatronum]

his actions wrt voting dont support that, and he would have asked for a flavor claim

I await his full flavour claim matched with each person.

No need to speculate on what is/is not supported when his claim will prove or disprove the theory.

[EspressoPatronum]

Even if eyestott is town and knows the flavour of each role, we can use that information to confirm via the flavour reveals.

Hypo example:
Eyestott says the VT flavour is "look at all those chickens'
Titus claims VT
Titus' flavour matches her claim, confirming her role

All that depends on the

roles

and not the

people

being flavoured, of course.

[EspressoPatronum]

help me pressure him.

I'm sure he'll respond once he reads my posts.

[EspressoPatronum]

Even if eyestott is town and knows the flavour of each role, we can use that information to confirm via the flavour reveals.

Hypo example:

Eyestott says the VT flavour is "look at all those chickens'
Titus claims VT
Titus' flavour matches her claim, confirming her role

All that depends on the

roles

and not the

people

being flavoured, of course.

Where did Eyestott say the VT flavor mentions chickens?

He didn't. That was a hypothetical example (bolded and underlined above) to demonstrate how we can use the role flavourer as theorized.

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: EP

I don't like his recent posting about claiming eyestott could be a scum rolecop. Looks like he's lynch fishing.

Gobble, who did you target?

What are you even talking about?? Did you read my posts?

I'm saying I don't think his role is what he says it is and I want him to claim to prove it. I don't think he's a scum rolecop -- I think he's a ROLE FLAVOURER (as I've stated several times in my last posts) that could be scum or town. If he's town, I want him to work with the investigative. If he's scum, we caught him in a lie and he can die next.

I am still set on a pk/gobble team. I want to find the third before I die.

[EspressoPatronum]

Like, I'm over here trying to make sense of how flavour might not be useless + Titus just shuts it down before even grappling with it. Come on.

If I wasn't so confident in you being a useful town role, I'd say that was scummy. Instead, I think you're just a tunneling town who doesn't want to talk mechanics.

[EspressoPatronum]

Unless you think eye is the third, why would scum fake a guilty on their own?

I think the third is in Eyestott/Egix/alim.

Who knows why scum would fake a guilty. I've seen crazier.

[EspressoPatronum]

I think its Pk, Alim, Egix?

pedit:

EP, you theory is fine and all, but eyestott literally gave mastina a flavor that has mastina's name in it, which I think debunks your theory

This is true, but perhaps he has information about some but not all.

I want to hear his full claim regardless.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]
@gobble - who did you target last night?

[...]
Gobble, who did you target?

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: Pisskop

If this is town, eyestott was definitely setup. But the more I think about this game, I am thinking the guilty is real and its Alim + Egix

Oh, if Pisskop is town, then the group is Titus/Egix/Alim.

Noted. Thanks!

EP, what is your read on Eyestott? I am really hedging my group on the fact that his play is too scummy to be scum and that he would have played his role differently, but I am curious to see your read.

My read on eyestott depends a lot on whether he can prove his role.

If he lied, I think it's more likely he's scum. If he told the truth, I think he's a glorified VT.

pedit:

Why does that matter? No seems to have targeted me so my target is irrelevant.

It might matter. Can you please claim your target and why?

[EspressoPatronum]

My target is technically confirmable, even if it may not seem like that. If I am right, I think one of Egix/EP targeted me.

Good to know. If we can somehow confirm your role today, I think we should.

Who did you target?

[EspressoPatronum]

Why are you dodging the question, gobble?

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

Unless you think eye is the third, why would scum fake a guilty on their own?

I think the third is in Eyestott/Egix/alim.

Who knows why scum would fake a guilty. I've seen crazier.

you realized I claimed mailman and I didn't send a mail to eyestott right?

Yes, but your inclusion in my list for the third scum was based off POE in light of the JOAT and mason claims. Unless you're a mason mailman, I see no reason to remove you from the POE yet. Do you disagree?

Is it a good time to mention that Eve is town?

As good a time as any. What makes you say this?

Btw, are you actually in a hood with Eve?

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm not comfortable with fully revealing everyone's flavour.
I'm not convinced that this information is useless, and I could be shooting the town in the foot by revealing their role flavour if there are other roles that have effects if flavour is known

A reveal of two flavours will suffice then.

Before the main wagon is lynched, I would like you to post their exact flavour. No more "watch out for John Snow" or mysterious clues, just their exact flavour.

In addition, pick one person who isn't me/Egix/gobble/Titus and post their exact flavour. The revealer can confirm that person's flavour tonight.

[EspressoPatronum]

My flavor is already revealed

As is titus

Exactly, which is why I said

not

you or Titus. Eyestott's Avengers comment was directed at Egix + I know one of Eyestott's hints relates to me, so I'd rather him not pick in us two either.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm not comfortable with fully revealing everyone's flavour.
I'm not convinced that this information is useless, and I could be shooting the town in the foot by revealing their role flavour if there are other roles that have effects if flavour is known

A reveal of two flavours will suffice then.

Before the main wagon is lynched, I would like you to post their exact flavour. No more "watch out for John Snow" or mysterious clues, just their exact flavour.

In addition, pick one person who isn't me/Egix/gobble/Titus and post their exact flavour. The revealer can confirm that person's flavour tonight.

EP here wanting more reveals. He rolefishes the mason, now this.

Why can't I get support here?

Can you please just do like a 5 min meta dive on me. People consistently say this rolefishing line (or some variation) about me, but I'm always just trying to gain more information for the town. Mainstream Mafia II and Gay Mafia (TM 20) are two easy examples of this in my recent games.

I've been very transparent in wanting a mass claim today. Since that isn't going to happen, I at least want information to help solidify my flavour theory.

Do you disagree with my flavour theory? Why/why not? In addition, what do you make of flavour + how can we use it?

[EspressoPatronum]

Alrighty. I’m just going to do this because this game is stalling.
Egix is the JoAT. Eve is the mason. Flavor revealer has to be EP.

Confirming my role.

I'm grasping at straws to see how I'm supposed to be useful here, but Titus and Eyestott aren't making it easy.

[EspressoPatronum]

Huge family emergency, unsure how long this will take to resolve.

No problem. Take as much time as you need! Wishing you and your family well.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm not comfortable with fully revealing everyone's flavour.
I'm not convinced that this information is useless, and I could be shooting the town in the foot by revealing their role flavour if there are other roles that have effects if flavour is known

A reveal of two flavours will suffice then.

Before the main wagon is lynched, I would like you to post their exact flavour. No more "watch out for John Snow" or mysterious clues, just their exact flavour.

In addition, pick one person who isn't me/Egix/gobble/Titus and post their exact flavour. The revealer can confirm that person's flavour tonight.

EP here wanting more reveals. He rolefishes the mason, now this.

Why can't I get support here?

Can you please just do like a 5 min meta dive on me. People consistently say this rolefishing line (or some variation) about me, but I'm always just trying to gain more information for the town. Mainstream Mafia II and Gay Mafia (TM 20) are two easy examples of this in my recent games.

I've been very transparent in wanting a mass claim today. Since that isn't going to happen, I at least want information to help solidify my flavour theory.

Do you disagree with my flavour theory? Why/why not? In addition, what do you make of flavour + how can we use it?

I am not helping you role fish. You being anti-town every game is irrelevant. It's not just anti-town here it's proscum. I don't do meta, not even five minute dives.

Stop rolefishing. Tell me who is scum.

I told you who is scum. It's pisskop and gobble. I don't know the third.

Just because you don't understand the possible benefits of a reveal doesn't make you right, and shutting down the discussion also doesn't prove your point if you turn out to be right. You need to be clear with your reasoning + be open to other points of view.

Role madness games tend to have a mechanical solve in them once you get a mass claim. Gobble and I had a great mech solve in Mainstream Mafia II, and Pink Ball had a good one in the most recent Greatest Idea game.

We'd both be better off if you read my posts a little more carefully from now on.

[EspressoPatronum]

EP, I targeted Titus last night.

———

Confirming EP as flavor revealer gives me pause because I really don’t know if both the flavourer and the revealer would be the same alignment and I’m townreading both.

I figured. I wanted you to say before I revealed in case you tried saying you targeted someone else.

Yeah, that's where I'm struggling. I don't see why eyestott and I are in the game if everything we know about flavour is true. I'm effectively a glorified VT who moves around at night.

If, however, there's more to flavour than eyestott has let on, I can actually put my role to use by coordinating with the group.

[EspressoPatronum]

This game feels like one of those vanillaless games that while true to the definition of being vanillaless doesn’t actually have that much power in it.

I think you're right but hope you're not.

Titus voting EP here makes like no sense in my mind given her insistence that Pisskop’s slot has been scum -all- game and also has a claimed guilty on it.

I agree and I think it's annoying, but I don't think it's scummy.


Btw, why did you target Titus last night?

[EspressoPatronum]

@Egix - can you shed some more light on the pisskop letter?

You confirmed some but not all of what eyestott said. How would you like us to interpret that?

[EspressoPatronum]

What can u do with the revealed flavour EP?

I can't do anything other than publicly reveal flavour, which is why I don't understand the purpose of my role.

As to eyestott revealing people's flavour, I have included the relevant posts below. In sum, I think he doesn't actually know everyone's flavour but instead knows the flavour of roles + maybe 1 or two people.

At the very least, eyestott accurately revealing the exact flavour of everyone will prove to me that:
1) He was telling the truth, and
2) My role is useless.

Spoiler: relevant posts

Here's a wild idea:

Eyestott is a ROLE flavourer. What if he added flavour for each ROLE instead of each PERSON + he's been trying to figure out who has what flavour?!

I say we make eyestott fullclaim the flavour of each PERSON. He's done a few hints thus far, but not all of them have been targeted at the right person. I'll post an example below:

Eyestott, I agree with the assessment that you've been present but not doing much at all. Why isn't this suspicious of you?

I promise, all will be answered before the end of the day, so do please bear with me. I have a plan. Do you think you have any idea what I'm trying to do, Tai (or anyone in STRQ, or really anyone in general)? This is a very important question to me. If you do, don't actually say, please. Just need some confirmation.
In the meantime, here is my favourite vine
Reads coming soon.

He sent this photo to STRQ/gobble, but we now know that this is Titus' flavour! If he was trying to convince STRQ/gobble of the flavour, why wouldn't he post something from 'Never Gonna Give You Up?'

I'm almost certain he knows mine* and Egix's, but I'm not convinced he knows everyone else's.

*He gave me an accurate hint. It's possible that he threw out several different hints + I just caught the one relevant to me.

Even if eyestott is town and knows the flavour of each role, we can use that information to confirm via the flavour reveals.

Hypo example:
Eyestott says the VT flavour is "look at all those chickens'
Titus claims VT
Titus' flavour matches her claim, confirming her role

All that depends on the

roles

and not the

people

being flavoured, of course.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

[Alimdia], are you actually in a hood with Eve?

[EspressoPatronum]

Didn't I say I wasn't gonna answer that?

And I thought Eyescott knew mastina's flavor?

You said you weren't going to answer how you knew Eve was town, which is fine by me. My hood question was separate.

He might have known mastina's, but it seems he didn't know gobble's flavour. If I recall correctly, he only revealed Rabid's flavour AFTER Rabid claimed neighbourizer.

[EspressoPatronum]

Here's the sequencing mentioned earlier. RS claimed his role before eyestott revealed his flavour.

Mastina is scum. She's either lying that she's intimately familiar with me, or lying that this is my scum game.

FWIW I'm a 1X neighborizer. Since I'm town it's worthless per se, but I thought that I'd save it and at least be able to check if someone later claimed ascetic or hider or something.

To prove my role: Be prepared for Ygritte.

P-edit - thanks for clearing that up, alim. If you said you were in a hood together, I was going to ask why you targeted Eve for mail.

[EspressoPatronum]

And then there's this!

@alimdia (and mono):

I am the ROLE flavorer. My abilities are only to do with your role name

. I have no idea what’s up with mastinas role. [...]

[EspressoPatronum]

EP, it seems like you’re the only one who wants to be outed, so here we go. Your flavour is “ “

This doesn't help prove my point because you already know my role now. You need to reveal someone's flavour who's role is still unknown to prove that you know the player's' flavour instead of the role flavour.

I saw your hint to me earlier, but I don't know if you dropped several different hints and I just picked up on the " ".

[EspressoPatronum]

Who’s doing the teeth pulling, pk?

I agree with pk on this. This lynch feels important and people have information, but nobody wants to give enough information to help steer the lynch.

- Egix just now confirmed the TARGETS but not the actions claimed by eyestott + the letter
- Eyestott won't reveal the full contents of the letter to protect the identity of the JoaT
- The JoaT hasn't revealed
- alim is a mailman who hasn't said what he sent

There's more information that people are holding, but the above is/may be relevant to the lynch.

Whether or not the holding of information today has been the correct play, trying to get said information definitely feels like pulling teeth.

[EspressoPatronum]

[...]

Who’s doing the teeth pulling, pk?

I agree with pk on this. This lynch feels important and people have information, but nobody wants to give enough information to help steer the lynch.

- Egix just now confirmed the TARGETS but not the actions claimed by eyestott + the letter
- Eyestott won't reveal the full contents of the letter to protect the identity of the JoaT
- The JoaT hasn't revealed
- alim is a mailman who hasn't said what he sent

There's more information that people are holding, but the above is/may be relevant to the lynch.

Whether or not the holding of information today has been the correct play, trying to get said information definitely feels like pulling teeth.

I said I didn't send a letter saying guilty. My receipent said they received my mail so...
[...]

Right, but you still haven't said the contents of your letter (per the post below). It should be noted that your partial claim in 1124 was helpful, as you helped rule out the possibility of a redirect.

We don't know whether the contents of the letter could influence the lynch today, which is why I added it to the list of things that are or

may be

relevant.

I'm gonna do a partial claim, and redact some stuff because I don't want to give other info away 'freely'

I am an mailman. I sent a mail to Eve last night.

The contents of the mail shall remain secret for now

, but it definitely is NOT 'I'm a JOAT and I got a guilty on pisskop N1', so that rules out me being redirected to eyescott.
I did not send a mail to anyone else last night. Therefore, I'm struggling to understand how eyescott got a mail last night.
I also did not send mail on N1, Eve should understand why.

The conclusion is that the mailman is either scum or eyescott is just bs'ing the whole thing up.

[EspressoPatronum]

i think people not coming forward with more information is probably indicative that this lynch is fine and nothing more needs to be said

Good point

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: pisskop

[EspressoPatronum]

Given no one claimed the guilty, it screams Pisskop is being framed.

Alternatively:

i think people not coming forward with more information is probably indicative that this lynch is fine and nothing more needs to be said

[EspressoPatronum]

TiTuS iS rOlEfiShInG fOr ThE jOaT

[EspressoPatronum]

VOTE: vote: esspressopatronum

Just to be clear:

(A) Assuming you're town, fypv, you

know

the contents of eyestott's letter are fake.
(B) Given (A), either: (b1) eyestott is lying OR (b2) someone's role allowed them to frame you.
(C) That means, fypv, you have confirmed scum in eyestott OR someone who is not mason/splitter/flavour revealer/role flavourer

Given the above, why are you voting me when you should be pushing eyestott or any of the people who's roles are not mentioned in (C)?

As a side note, and again assuming you are town fypv, you know Titus is prone to tunneling this game (which she's been doing to me and you all game), so why go with her vote here?

[EspressoPatronum]

EP, There's a difference between "Someone has a guilty" and let's out all the conftown. Without an owner, there is no guilty. If there's no guilty, then Pisskop is framed.

I don't like it either as it means my early scumread was wrong but facts are facts.

You said it here already, so I'll change the wording a bit so it applies to your own post.

Yeah I would lynch pisskop probably without a massclaim, but I think massclaim is necessary

I would rather keep the other mason hidden. We need the joat to claim. Then tmo we can talk about mass claim. If the other mason dies, I'll be on board with massclaim.

Outing the other mason might buy the JOAT more time alive. It'd force scum to pick between them.

Revealing the [JOAT] gives scum a roadmap to kill. A hidden [JOAT] in lylo or stopping their own mislynch is more valuable [especially since the JOAT still has actions remaining].

Hiding [the JOAT was something davesaz did to great success in Gay Mafia in TM 20]. Scum just were literally out of mislynches because [he tracked the last scum].

[EspressoPatronum]

Because I tried to get people onto eyestott. And I cant help us win if Im dead.

Do you think eye is scum? I think its unlikely.

If you're town, I think eyestott is scum.

Even if you're scum, I still think eyestott is sus because he hasn't given us the complete information pertaining to his role. He said he'll fullclaim tomorrow, so I'll reevaluate my read on him based on: (1) your flip, and (2) the information he reveals.

[EspressoPatronum]

Because I tried to get people onto eyestott. And I cant help us win if Im dead.

Do you think eye is scum? I think its unlikely

.

okay, i want him to fullclaim no matter what else happens, so if you can get a wagon on him consider me on.

If you think eyestott being scum is unlikely, that means town!you thinks someone else framed you. Wouldn't you therefore want to wagon the person most likely to have framed you? (See option B2 in 1362).

That should mean town!you wants a wagon on one of alim, Eve, Titus, or Egix,* minus whichever one is the mason. (See option C in 1362)

*Egix is an option for who framed you but not a viable wagon today.

I understand your willingness to vote me out of survivalism, but town!you should see that voting me delays the issues presented by the mail/letter claim. It's better for town to deal with it now (ie. vote you/eyestott/one of the other options) while there's likely still room for error.

Rule 1 of being town: you dont make claims that people wont follow you blindly on. And then not elaborate. Its absolutely begging to make a tunnel/feud.

Perhaps the JOAT thought we would follow the claim blindly.

[EspressoPatronum]

I have no idea whether the joat has actions remaining. That requires the mystical, nonexistent joat to claim.

The same person who claimed the guilty also told us the JOAT has remaining actions.

I support a full claim today.

If we're actually in mylo, I'd prefer if the JOAT confirmed eyestott's story.

The JOAT informed me that they will not be claiming today.

They aren't done with their abilities

.
[...]

_________________

Pisskop claimed X shot tracker too.

Why is this relevant?

[EspressoPatronum]

The joat is only conftown if it claims. The mason is conftown regardless.

The JOAT dies if they claim. So does the mason.

If they both claim at the same time, we gain either:
1) an extra day of an outed mason (ie. a confirmed town to lead the town), or
2) an extra ability use by the JOAT

This is why I wanted them both to reveal. Since that isn't going to happen, I don't think either should reveal.

Considering the mason options are down to 2 people, I'm not sure how useful them holding out is going to be. Their call though.

[EspressoPatronum]

EP, that assumes the mailman is actually a joat. We have no proof of such. The absence of proof means either a) eyestott is lying, b) the sender is scum or c) the joat is an idiot because people should think a or b.

Pisskop might have useful actions as much as this "joat".

I'm not sure what you're arguing here.

To reiterate, I am pro-reveal insofar as the JOAT AND mason reveal. This string of posts started because I was demonstrating to you why it can be pro-town for the JOAT to remain hidden here if they believe pk's lynch will go through without a full reveal. You evidently want the JOAT to reveal, but you're overlooking the fact that if the JOAT exists and they reveal, they will most likely die tonight. This result will deprive town of their additional actions. Those actions may or may not be better or more numerous than pk's X tracking, but that's irrelevant. If the JOAT comes forward and reveals, we kill pisskop (eliminating his tracking ability) and effectively sentence the JOAT to die (eliminating their additional abilities). Then we're left with nothing.

Your vote on me here doesn't make sense because voting outside of pisskop, eyestott, or any other potential senders does not resolve this issue. You're acting like the JOAT doesn't exist but you're pushing the problem to tomorrow.

[EspressoPatronum]

I mean even before gobbles speculated, I had my own guess' on who was what.

Saying 'we dont need them to claim because we have enough info' is kind of what scum want. No scum worth their salt is going to not going to be combing through isoes.

What is better, is to have both claim, force scum to choose between a joat with a mystery shot, a mason, and a tracker, and see what they pick from that.

Potentially useful role or mechanical clear?

This whole day has become about hiding players that, at this stage, should not want to be hidden.

I'm assuming these are directed at me, so I'll reiterate my stance again. I agree that a mass claim would be useful here, as stated earlier:

I support a full claim today.

If we're actually in mylo, I'd prefer if the JOAT confirmed eyestott's story.

I really think today is the day to fullclaim, given all the claim shenanigans going on right now

However, given that

Titus, Egix, Eve, eyestott, and alimdia are evidently against a full claim

, I think the JOAT staying undercover is the next best option. Please see my most recent posts for an explanation of why I think it is the next best option.

[EspressoPatronum]

I mean even before gobbles speculated, I had my own guess' on who was what.

Saying 'we dont need them to claim because we have enough info' is kind of what scum want. No scum worth their salt is going to not going to be combing through isoes.

What is better, is to have both claim, force scum to choose between a joat with a mystery shot, a mason, and a tracker, and see what they pick from that.

Potentially useful role or mechanical clear?

This whole day has become about hiding players that, at this stage, should not want to be hidden.

I'm assuming these are directed at me, so I'll reiterate my stance again. I agree that a mass claim would be useful here, as stated earlier:

I support a full claim today.

If we're actually in mylo, I'd prefer if the JOAT confirmed eyestott's story.

I really think today is the day to fullclaim, given all the claim shenanigans going on right now

However, given that

Titus, Egix, Eve, eyestott, and alimdia are evidently against a full claim

, I think the JOAT staying undercover is the next best option. Please see my most recent posts for an explanation of why I think it is the next best option.

No. Any mystical joat with a guilty should full claim. Period.

Feel free to dispute my ideas with reasons of your own rather than dogmatic assertions.

[EspressoPatronum]

Well, these people are voting EP in light of thinking the guilty on PK is fake. Why would those people not be voting for eyestott, the claimer of the guilty they think is fake, or vote for someone who could have the mailman ability now that it’s been revealed EP’s night action is not to send mail?

How does that turn into an EP vote?

Because both scenarios deal with could be not what actually is. It could be that Alimeda lied and sent a fake guilty (scum did that in Boon There done that) or eyestott could be lying. I have more confidence in EP scum than

mechanical could bes

.

They're only mechanical "could be's" as long as (1) we don't have a fullclaim, and (2) we don't resolve the possibilities. You're against (1) and your vote shows that you have no interest in (2). If you had your way, you would willingly send town into likely lylo with unresolved mechanics that could have been resolved the day before.

Thankfully, the majority of people here seem interested in resolving (2) one way or another (ie. voting eyestott or pk) instead of pushing the issue to tomorrow.

[EspressoPatronum]

Eve talk moar in our chat plx

sorry alim i'm writing up my reads in there now

tell me what you think before i post them to the thread

You guys are killing me, lol. Is the chat real or not??

If it is, why did you send mail to Eve, alim?

[EspressoPatronum]

Hey gobble, do you wanna do some of your activity charts in the downtime?

[EspressoPatronum]

Let's get this show on the road. Waiting on two votes on pk.

[EspressoPatronum]

Wow, are you for real?

[EspressoPatronum]

The votes on EP make literally no sense given the current situation.

From this to:

VOTE: EP

[EspressoPatronum]

Despite gobble still being scum, we should be voting in pk or eyestott.

[EspressoPatronum]

Only one player can have possibly sent that mail, based off all the claims

No, Titus.

titus seems pretty sure Im not guilty.

If Titus is the only one to have sent the mail but thinks pk is innocent, then why wouldn't she be voting eyestott for lying about the contents of the mail?!

She evidently didn't send the mail.

[EspressoPatronum]

and everyone has plausible deniability if pisskop flips town.

like eyescotts gonna say he got the mail, and nobodys gonna take ownership of that mail

List of options:
- if pk flips town, we know somebody lied but nobody will take ownership of it.
- if pk flips scum, there's a good chance that the sender of the mail is town. It looks good on eyestott, too.

If we lynch eyestott:
- and he's scum, we know he tried to frame pk and/or bait claims.
- and he's town, we still don't know if the contents of the letter were accurate AND we don't know who sent it. Nobody will take ownership for it.

Voting pk is better because getting it right on pk is better than getting it right on eyestott. Getting it wrong on pk is less bad than getting it wrong on eyestott. .

[EspressoPatronum]

Only one player can have possibly sent that mail, based off all the claims

No, Titus.

titus seems pretty sure Im not guilty.

If Titus is the only one to have sent the mail but thinks pk is innocent, then why wouldn't she be voting eyestott for lying about the contents of the mail?!

She evidently didn't send the mail.

Because in Boon There Done That scum sent a fake guilty.

Dude, your hand is so far up the cookie jar, it's in the oven.

This is exhausting. You evidently didn't read my post again.

I was saying

YOU

didn't send the mail to eyestott. That has nothing to do with scum sending or not sending a fake guilty.

[EspressoPatronum]

Eve is the only person to have claimed mason, right?

maybe i'm wrong. I remember something to do with that, but maybe someone else claimed she was mason and she didn't deny it

Alim says Eve is town. Gobble guessed she's a mason. She denied neither:

Is it a good time to mention that Eve is town?

Alrighty. I’m just going to do this because this game is stalling.
Egix is the JoAT. Eve is the mason. Flavor revealer has to be EP.

_______________________________________

I'm almost certain Eve is trolling with the fakehammer + "slip", but I'd like alim to weigh in before we make any decisions.

@Eve how can Egix and Churros help you?

[EspressoPatronum]

V excited for the full claim today.

[EspressoPatronum]

eyestott has been flavor revealed! His flavor is Town Informed Role Flavourer*.

Wut?!

I'd say this means his flavour is either to support a fake claim or to help with his real claim. Tough to say which one rn.

[EspressoPatronum]

He's the one that gives flavor.

That's his flavor.

It technically means not something the mod has choosen to him, but something he choose himself.

Hmmm.

And in a game where he gave everyone memey and/or useless flavour, the fact that his flavour includes his claimed faction and role is strange.

[...]
@eye was it the mod or yourself that gave you that "flavour" ?

Good question.

[EspressoPatronum]

I can’t believe I got Eve killed as the mailman
Lmao

It ended up working out quite well. The real mason is still alive.

[EspressoPatronum]

Pending any claims +/ night action information, my lynch pool is in Eyestott, Titus, Gobble.

@Gobble - what, specifically, made Egix look bad yesterday?

@Churros - I see you didn't treestump anyone today. What was your thought process behind that decision?

[EspressoPatronum]

Egix, EP, why should I townread you and lynch the other?

Reread the entirety of yesterday. I don't need to tell you when my play speaks for itself.

[EspressoPatronum]

This game is so so messy from the gambit lol

We can't be certain of the extent of the gambit and/or whether it was actually a gambit at all. I'm waiting until alimdia weighs in before jumping to conclusions.

[EspressoPatronum]

Egix, EP, why should I townread you and lynch the other?

Reread the entirety of yesterday. I don't need to tell you when my play speaks for itself.

This is unhelpful. Yesterday I wanted to lynch you. I still do. You're supposed to try and convince me not to lynch you.

I have already tried to engage with you, but you shut me down every time I try. Instead of talking to deaf ears, I'm inviting you to do the legwork instead. Please do the following: 1) reread pisskop's ISO, 2) reread the arguments I presented for pisskop's lynch, and 3) reread who was on the wagon and trying to get off.

After doing so, and especially after #3, you'll find that you, gobble, and eyestott look the worst from yesterday. Upon a reread, you'll also note that I believe I have a good idea of your role, which is the only reason I'm not actively pushing you. If it turns out I'm wrong about your role, you will become my top scumread. Until such time, I will be looking to eyestott and gobble, in that order. There's clearly something weird going on with eyestott's role, and gobble was looking for every opportunity to leave pk's wagon.

[EspressoPatronum]

gobble was looking for every opportunity to leave pk's wagon.

My VCA clears Gobble.

You're welcome to vote Egix.

How does it clear gobble?

[EspressoPatronum]

gobble was looking for every opportunity to leave pk's wagon.

My VCA clears Gobble.

You're welcome to vote Egix.

How does it clear gobble?

Click the temporal iso.

Look where Gobble is when Pisskop was an option.

The VCA alone fails to provide the context of gobble's wagon swaps. In addition, it doesn't capture his brief swap to my wagon, putting me at L-2. He says it was a meme vote, but he could have been testing the waters.
Here's a recap of gobble's votes on pk, plus all of his votes yesterday.

DAY 1:

Wait why don’t we just kill Pisskop?

VOTE: pisskop

pk was never a viable wagon on D1. It was always between Adorable or RS. To me, this vote looks like a token vote against pk.
DAY 2:

Fine
VOTE: Pisskop

The slot has done literally nothing all game. It gets purge

gobble waffled between momo and pk near the end of the day. Notably, he stayed on pk despite the flash wagon on momo. He may have been trying to stay off the town wagon.

DAY 3:

Let’s murderate pk

VOTE: Pisskop

Ok. We lynch eyestott then you tomorrow, if he’s town?

How does eyestott's flip prove anything about pisskop?

I don’t think he’s been particularly townie, and it could be a way for scum to get to the end quicker. The fact that you are a mailman makes me think there is not a scum mailman and that eyestott made all of this up.

VOTE: Eyestott

VOTE: Pisskop

If this is town, eyestott was definitely setup. But the more I think about this game, I am thinking the guilty is real and its Alim + Egix

VOTE: EP

Actually I think I just want to kill this

VOTE: Eyestott

Skulls for the skull throne
VOTE: Pisskop

Churros summed this up nicely:

In fact it weirds me out as well that there's considerable amount of people hedging on him scum but no vote yet at all.

VOTE: gobbles

I can do either pisskop or eyesott as well. I think they are a bit self resolving either today or tomorrow in the massclaim.

Gobble's voting yesterday looks to achieve two things: 1) be on the pk wagon, 2) try to start a different wagon if possible.

Failing #2, gobble ultimately voted out pk. This absolutely should not clear gobble. Instead, I believe it sets up eyestott and gobble as T/S, as I struggle to see scum!gobble trying to save scum!pk by bussing another scum. At the same time, town!gobble may have rightly found two scum and was waffling between two. Town gobble is excellent at scumreads, so I'm inclined to go eyestott first.

[EspressoPatronum]

Yeah my VCA works without context EP. It's infuriating to some.

I mean, I just demonstrated that it doesn't.

Feel free to dispute my ideas with reasons of your own rather than dogmatic assertions.

I await your reasons for how gobble's VCA clears him. Merely asserting that it clears him isn't persuasive.

[EspressoPatronum]

I'm not voting Gobble until you and Egix are dead, so that's a thing.

Then I sincerely hope I don't make it to lylo with you.