Silent Star 1: Lunacy

[Clover Ebi]

I only trust 1 Branwen.
VOTE: Raven
and it sure as hell ain't you.

[Clover Ebi]

I wanted to make that post ever since I saw Raven in But whoa! We got some real votes right off the back I see. I still need to gauge skitters reaction but one thing I want to ask is

@Lilith/Votato/Skitter. Are your votes on Dunnstral real? Do you think he's coming out of the gate swinging on Skitter like this as scum? That just seems pretty bold if you ask me.

[Clover Ebi]

You weren’t on my radar until after I voted dunn. I don’t like that you jumped on him and then immediately backed off with “too scummy to be scum.” I don’t think I’m sheeping you, I don’t think I’m shading you, and I don’t think I’m “playing both sides.” I think you might be scum together.

It might just be how I play early but in my mind I doubt that if this is the case this is what's going to be the selling point on Votato or Dunn being scum so I don't know if this is really a good angle to work on since how easily defendable it is. I do like this thought process though I see the fire in your eyes Lilth you get em!

skitter I’ve never seen you this excited which is making me a biiiiiiiiit paranoid

Is Skitter like, normally a robot or something? I don't think I would ever vote someone because they're more excited than normal that just comes down to basic human emotion and that doesn't at all ping me as scummy. I guess you could say something if Skitter really liked scum over town, but then wouldn't that just raise more questions on why Skitter did it? Hmmm

[Clover Ebi]

Am I the only one who is getting like, no scum pings from Dunnstral/Skitter/Lilith/Votato? I got townie pings from the first 3 and nothing from Votato. Just me? Okay.

[Clover Ebi]

How do I say this properly...

Lilith I looked at your back and forth with Dunn and I think you're a bit tunneled/focused on him too much. Like, if Dunn is scum I doubt a lot of the reasons you're calling him scum went through his head and was an action he decided to consciously take as scum. That's just, so much early game when really it isn't needed at all.

[Clover Ebi]

Beeboy I'm not townreading you in like 5 posts like last game! Clearly this means you're scum. (No but I will needlessly worry even though it goes against my mafia policy )

[Clover Ebi]

I know that skitts is a great scum player (and i'm 0-1 against her) so im predicting ill gonna have a rough time reading her

votato however is my lovely unicorn friend so i feel more confident about him. i know all of his dirty secrets!

Oh that's good! I'll leave reading Votato to you then for now! One less player I need to worry about

[Clover Ebi]

How do I say this properly...

Lilith I looked at your back and forth with Dunn and I think you're a bit tunneled/focused on him too much. Like, if Dunn is scum I doubt a lot of the reasons you're calling him scum went through his head and was an action he decided to consciously take as scum. That's just, so much early game when really it isn't needed at all.

What a strange post. You’re talking to me like you know I’m town and you’re talking about Dunn like you know he’s town and you’re trying to defend him but you’re not actually pointing out anything towny about him, it’s a very null defense.

VOTE: clover

I mean, you're not exactly wrong but what's the problem with that? I always start my games viewing everyone as town until I see otherwise, but even besides that point I am townreading the two of you so yes I am talking about you guys like I think you're town. Plus my first point on Dunn was my defense. I don't really have much else at the moment.

[Clover Ebi]

Clover leaf parsing your posts I can't tell what you think of Lilith. I see your points about her but I can't really tell if you think she is tunneling like town or scum in particular.

I think she's town!

[Clover Ebi]

What so you think of MT and Votato thinking she is "playing both sides"?

Uh, was I asleep? Can you quote where these are.

[Clover Ebi]

How do I say this properly...

Lilith I looked at your back and forth with Dunn and I think you're a bit tunneled/focused on him too much. Like, if Dunn is scum I doubt a lot of the reasons you're calling him scum went through his head and was an action he decided to consciously take as scum. That's just, so much early game when really it isn't needed at all.

am i tunneled/focused on dunn too much?

I looked at your iso again and it seems very reasonable/open. You're talking to others and taking other angles that don't involve Dunn. I don't think you're tunneled atm.
@Midway Wah? Huh? I just like the emojis!

[Clover Ebi]

I looked at your iso again and it seems very reasonable/open. You're talking to others and taking other angles that don't involve Dunn. I don't think you're tunneled atm.

i'm not sure what the difference is between me and lilith then?
lilith has definitely taken other stances too

if anything i would maybe say i'm tunneled on dunn since lilith has moved on and was open to voting votato and i've been doubling down

I think the main dif that I'm running into with it is you seem very calm and rational where Lilith seems quite angry with Dunn so I can't tell if she

wants

Dunn to be scum and is just adding reasons (and I think that's the case atm) where you're a lot more calm and relaxed so I didn't get the same vibe between the 2 of you. Does that make sense?

[Clover Ebi]

Nahdia why do you think that post by me was scum?

VOTE: Tux

This isn't a strong vote, but the fact he's making the same kind of push as mid pointed out feels like such an odd coincidence to me that I wanna explore this a bit more.

[Clover Ebi]

Is fluff posting Ai though is the real question we should be discussing.
pedit: Oh okay carry on

[Clover Ebi]

Is fluff posting Ai though is the real question we should be discussing.
pedit: Oh okay carry on

Btw I think the answer to this is no

[Clover Ebi]

I think it's hard to articulate why this kind of defense feels so off to me - but basically I feel like this is the kind of defense I'd try to make as scum, where I'm trying to stop a wagon but I don't really give AI reasons that someone shouldn't be wagoned (maybe you remember [redacted]?). Clover's appealing to me to "tunnel less" (when I don't think I'm tunneling at all...) instead of trying to convince me why Dunnstral's town. Also I think "that's so much early game when really it isn't needed at all" is also a horrible argument for why someone wouldn't be scum, along the same lines as "that'd be a bad play as scum."

To sum up, I just feel parallels between that post and a post I would make as scum trying to derail a wagon.

Well Lilith, the thing is I am not you and what you would do as scum is probably much different than what I would do as scum. Otherwise the game would be down to a science no? Plus the whole base of your point is wrong to begin with!

I do feel like you were tunneling on Dunnstral maybe you don’t, but those are my feelings on the matter. I already explained in my post on skitter about that. Why do you think that’s scummy though? Plus, I did explain why I think Dunnstral is towny you just didn’t like the reason/think it was AI. Of course, I could give you more reasons on why Dunnstral is towny beside his early game posts but that’d be a lie. I don’t have anything else to really base it on. I think his content is fine, but to say it’s super towny besides what I’ve said would be false.

re: "seeming quite angry" I think you'll find that's just how I react to people trying to snark at me?
What reasons do you think I'm making up to support scumreading dunnstral? and if so, why are you townreading me?

Are you trying to say that you're not angry/being sassy in return to him? Because that's how I'm taking it and normally when someone is angry they want someone to be scum so normally points that wouldn't be scummy you look at as scummy. (hence tunneling) For example:

You're really hanging onto that 'he shaded my vote' huh

I don’t think it comes from a town mindset to see a naked vote and not ask why. I think it can come from a scum mindset to see a naked vote and try to shade me to make my vote seem less credible, without actually asking me to expound on my vote.

I could say the same for you on the whole “fake persona” thing

This post for example is just trying to find scummy things that aren't really scummy to begin with imo. The naked vote thing for example happens by...just a lot of people normally. It's not really a thing and Dunnstral doing that doesn't really prove much one way or the other.

Now then! I have a few questions for you if you don't mind. What's your read on: Nahdia/Tux if any. How do you feel about Tux vs Beeboy

[Clover Ebi]

Hmm, I just don't know how else to express it. Like if you reread the game in context the wagon is forming on Dunn on page 1, and they aren't RVS votes. Beeboy makes an entrance on page 2, but says nothing. Doesn't even RVS vote. They post again at the end of page 3, only to reintroduce their entrance post. Content doesn't come from them till page 4. It's just so weird like he is there watching the game unfold but not commenting on anything, while the game seemed clearly passed RVS.

Has Beeboys posts that now have content in them (or more so than before) changed your mind on the slot at all? I get what you're saying to an extent and while that looks bad on paper I find a hard time believing that's what beeboy was trying to do? Like it just seems unlikely to me.

[Clover Ebi]

Link to VC on this page.

I don't think these are complex thoughts either yet they make your argument come across as incredibly flawed. And now your centering all your content around this 1v1.

beeboy this feels like a huuuuuuge stretch. i actually agree with your initial assessment of tuxedo mask's case but you engaged Tux; why is it scummy for him to focus on responding to you?

beeboy this feels like a huuuuuuge stretch. i actually agree with your initial assessment of tuxedo mask's case but you engaged Tux; why is it scummy for him to focus on responding to you?

No your right it isn't, I am getting upset and tunneling him because I see things clearly other people arent. Sorry I'll give him space.

...who isn't seeing it?

This sums up my vote on beeboy. The logic doesn't make him look bad, but beeboy's attitude does. beeboy engages tux, tux responds to beeboy, and suddenly beeboy is smearing him as "centering all his content around this 1v1" (I explained why this doesn't make sense) and he's frustrating because "I see things clearly other people aren't" (the exchange had literally just begun virtually no one else checking in).

It reads like he's trying to conjure towny frustration but it doesn't seem at all appropriate to the situation. The mindset isn't right.

I got light town pings from beeboy because of the frustration because it seemed real to me. In the game I've played with beeboy before he was cool as a cucumber. Do you think he's likely to fake this anger because it's something 'town' him most do as scum? I suppose you could make an argument for saying beeboy wouldn't get mad at scum but the main problem I have is the pretense that he's faking this and that's just not how I took it.

[Clover Ebi]

can you elaborate on votato?

It's nothing strong, just a gut ping, and they already addressed it because it was in my intro. Votato likes playing scum, and they feel very engaged in and energized this game so far.

Though I will say I've only played with/caught scum Votato once and that was because of how little they cared for the game we were playing. This game is also very fast-paced so far, so it is probably enjoyable as either alignment.

The only other thing that pings me about them is they seem very aware of looking engaged (happy scum) in this game because they immediately responded to me saying that it was NAI with this playerlist. But that could just be because they know I know they prefer scum, and saw what I was getting at. But it's still digging at me.

Would you vote Votato if it came down to it? I am asking for...reasons.

[Clover Ebi]

clover did the thing where he assumed people were town. he's commented on other people's gamesolving, but hasnt actually done any himself. he also sheeped onto your wagon pretty opportunistically. overall theres nothing townie about the slot but a few things that strike me as off. he said he wants to "explore you" a bit more, but hasnt done anything to explore you or prod you or anything. hes just kinda floating by.

I know I've already asked this but I will again: What's wrong with assuming people are town? Let's just ignore the fact that is my playstyle and let me just ask what the issue with that is. Yes, I am assuming people I am townreading are town. Also I feel like I've been game solving plenty! Maybe not as fast paced but it would be a lie to say I'm not trying to solve

[Clover Ebi]

My main problem this game is it's page 13 and I have no confident scumreads yet whew. Am I giving too much leeway perhaps? Na, this'll change soon probably. Also MS why are you acting so weird

[Clover Ebi]

Can you go answer my other post Votato + your feelings on Nahdia/Midway

[Clover Ebi]

Hmm, I just don't know how else to express it. Like if you reread the game in context the wagon is forming on Dunn on page 1, and they aren't RVS votes. Beeboy makes an entrance on page 2, but says nothing. Doesn't even RVS vote. They post again at the end of page 3, only to reintroduce their entrance post. Content doesn't come from them till page 4. It's just so weird like he is there watching the game unfold but not commenting on anything, while the game seemed clearly passed RVS.

Has Beeboys posts that now have content in them (or more so than before) changed your mind on the slot at all? I get what you're saying to an extent and while that looks bad on paper I find a hard time believing that's what beeboy was trying to do? Like it just seems unlikely to me.

I don't know how to feel about Beeboy right now. I feel his reason for defending Dunnstral was fine, but I don't know how to feel about his exchange with me. Some parts feel townie some parts feel scummy. I think its best if I put them on the back burner for now, get distance from my initial read of them. Or else I'm just going to be a tunnely mess.

Would you vote Votato if it came down to it? I am asking for...reasons.

What does come down to it mean? Would I vote Votato if it was lynch him or lynch me? Then yes, but no one would say no to that. Do you mean just now will I switch my vote to Votato? Probably not, I've been weird to him ever since the lovers game and that's been coming to realize I just don't know how to read him. So I've just been extra critical of him. I think I need to take a step back and stop nitpicking them so much.

Alright, thanks! So you think you need to step back and relook at them? I'll wait for your reassessment

clover did the thing where he assumed people were town. he's commented on other people's gamesolving, but hasnt actually done any himself. he also sheeped onto your wagon pretty opportunistically. overall theres nothing townie about the slot but a few things that strike me as off. he said he wants to "explore you" a bit more, but hasnt done anything to explore you or prod you or anything. hes just kinda floating by.

I know I've already asked this but I will again: What's wrong with assuming people are town? Let's just ignore the fact that is my playstyle and let me just ask what the issue with that is. Yes, I am assuming people I am townreading are town. Also I feel like I've been game solving plenty! Maybe not as fast paced but it would be a lie to say I'm not trying to solve

sorry i missed this post. i think assuming people are town kinda leads to complacency and insufficient critical examination. if thats your playstyle then ??? but ive never seen it before and feel that its more likely a scumslip. thinking the people you townread are town is one thing, but you seemed overly confident in it. also, i think thats the weakest part of my case, and i wasnt the person who originally brought it up. can you point to a post you made that was you evaluating something someone said directly, rather than what you said about a second person's post about a third person?

I'm pretty sure my posting has mostly been direct? Unless I'm missing something here. I think you mostly just have a problem with my playstyle. Now normally, I wouldn't hold much issue with this but you've played with me before so I'm surprised that this is a problem for you. I don't know, I normally don't mind defending myself cause I know my points can be a bit controversial but this just feels weird to me. Like the points you're making aren't ones I would suspect to be scumread for. Then again, I feel like if i was ever scum it'd be super obvious cause there's no way I'd be able to play like this so hm

[Clover Ebi]

Tux and Votato are the closest to people I would vote/have voted and since Votato doesn't bus I was curious how they'd react to each other. Don't really know if I got the results I wanted though this game is super odd.

[Clover Ebi]

. can you point to a post you made that was you evaluating something someone said directly, rather than what you said about a second person's post about a third person?

You can look at my early posts to Lilith for that, but what's wrong with the me commenting on other peoples assumptions? I get you think I'm skating by but I guess I don't really understand how you looked at my posting and got a scummy vibe from it is the part I'm trying to figure out. Like, you're saying a lot of things and it feels like trying to build it into something scummy. Words bleh.

[Clover Ebi]

From what I can tell and correct me on this if I'm wrong. We're mostly in the same spot of needing more content from other slots at least. So let me ask besides myself who do you have strong feelings on towny or scummy?

[Clover Ebi]

I'm gonna go lay down because I'm starting to talk myself into scumreading slots because the fact I don't have any strong ones yet is weirding me out/bothering me so much when really the game just started and it shouldn't be that big a deal.

[Clover Ebi]

Before I rest I want Beeboy/Kanna/Dunnstrals opinion on Votato. They should be able to guess why

[Clover Ebi]

do you usually have scumreads this early, or is this normal for you to mostly just have townreads?

Well I like to play the game townreading people until I have reason to believe otherwise and the closest to that is Votato. Even then I normally have 1 good scumread by this point. But, the problem is I'm still townreading/null reading a lot of the playerlist where I feel as I've seen most of them that I should have

some

idea. The fact I don't is giving me a headache cause I keep asking myself if I should be less lenient but that goes against my entire playstyle.

[Clover Ebi]

Is that at me Mr Dunnstral?

[Clover Ebi]

Oh now that the 2 of you are here let me ask:

One of the main reasons I'm starting to scumread Votato more is because I've had plenty of pushes on me in the past from town and scum (although mostly Town now that I think about it) but Votato's doesn't seem like one in good faith. I'm his strong scumread because I haven't been directly commenting on peoples posts and...that's it? I would like to know if you think I'm being biased and I should stop or not.

Ok back to my Lilith posting

[Clover Ebi]

Well, I think Lilith's snark/anger was genuine and her engagement from me seemed to come from good faith. Like, Lilith is pushing me/Dunn and if we both flip town and atm I think so she's going to look quite bad for it almost more so than anyone else. Does she needlessly go for this to take heat as scum? I doubt it. There's a lot of angles she could've taken/done and just didn't. It also is hard to be angry as scum and handle Dunnstral how she did imo.

[Clover Ebi]

I wouldn't describe lilith as 'angry', more like 'calculating'

Go on.

[Clover Ebi]

It doesn't matter how weak or strong a push is. In fact, I believe scum would more than likely have stronger pushes when they make em than town because scum really dislike not having their bases covered from my experience. I just don't get how any solving or trying to figure out my alignment from you during our engagement Votato.

@Dunnstral I, don't really know how to take your reasoning. Like I get it but it's taking a moment for me to wrap my head around it.

[Clover Ebi]

How do I say this properly...

Lilith I looked at your back and forth with Dunn and I think you're a bit tunneled/focused on him too much. Like, if Dunn is scum I doubt a lot of the reasons you're calling him scum went through his head and was an action he decided to consciously take as scum. That's just, so much early game when really it isn't needed at all.

am i tunneled/focused on dunn too much?

I looked at your iso again and it seems very reasonable/open. You're talking to others and taking other angles that don't involve Dunn. I don't think you're tunneled atm.
@Midway Wah? Huh? I just like the emojis!

Clover, can you point out which skitter posts you read that included "talking to others and taking other angles that didn't involve dunn" up to this point? And then also explain why you didn't count anything I said about votato? I think I interacted with votato a similar amount and with the same "anger" or attitude or whatever you want to call it as I did with Dunn, so what was it about my interactions with votato vs my interactions with Dunn that felt different to you such that you felt like I was tunneling Dunn but not votato?

I feel like with this post and your next that you were trying to retroactively justify why you called me out and not skitter for "tunneling" dunn.

In regards to Votato to me your tone seemed quite different compared to Dunnstral or at least that's how I took it. Why I didn't say anything about Votato from you is...I can't really remember. I just know when I was looking at your iso and skitters side by side and the way you guys were both interacting with Dunnstral that it felt very different. Like:

Spoiler: Quotes here

I don’t think “it would be a bad play” is a good reason to say someone isn’t scum. Scum don’t always play optimally.

which is why my vote is still there. do we wanna talk about your naked vote or how you're playing both sides here?

You said he’s most likely town though. I don’t like that you’re still voting him even after you defended him.

All you did was naked vote so. And yesthat is what I was arguing, I said cheery instead though.

Skktter it's ai because It's a fake persona

You’re arguing that it’s fake, I don’t think that’s what I was trying to get at at all.

i dunno. anti-town play most often comes from town. but i suppose dunns play wasnt really anti-town. i just see that sort of bad push coming more often from overzealous town trying to get day 1 moving than from scum pushing a mislynch. if dunn is scum then im tempted to say skitter is also scum and this was a distancing play.

But why are you still voting him then?

I see your logic and even if I don’t agree with it, I can understand it - but keeping your vote on him after you’ve put forth this logic makes 0 sense

OK. Why are you voting me?

I think you're overestimating how much attention I should have been paying attention to you

Yet you paid attention to me by shading my vote and then picking a fight over what I said about skitter, so...

Exactly how much attention weren’t you paying?

Feel pretty night and day to me. Maybe that wasn't your intent but that was how I took it. Also, if I was trying to correct myself as scum I don't think I would've taken half measures like this, but then again I don't think I would've taken this angle to begin with but that's going down a path you probably don't care for.

Why are you hard townreading beeboy?

[Clover Ebi]

Are you close to unvoting me yet Lilith? This is starting to get a bit stale to me! But, if the answer is no I will argue until you heart is content and I am in your town pool.
pedit: Mostly timing. Dunn did it first and yes exactly what you're saying

[Clover Ebi]

CURSE YOU PAGE TOP

[Clover Ebi]

Ah I'm getting flashbacks to last game. Let me grab some coffee

[Clover Ebi]

Yeah I've said I respond with attitude/sass whatever according to the post I'm replying to (or maybe not in so many words, but this is what I meant)

votato's post towards me seemed to be in good faith, so I gave him the courtesy of responding in kind - but when he was snarky at me, I was snarky right back.

Same goes for my interaction with Dunn, except Dunn kept being snarky to me so I kept being snarky to him.

I see, I can somewhat understand where you’re coming from now/how you play a bit. But without me knowing I felt like that was anger and the way you were responding/people who get angry normally tend to tunnel and find things that normally wouldn’t be scum AI scummy. However I feel like I’ve said this like three times now and it’s like beating a dead horse.

I think that's just it - you were trying to convince me that he was town but you couldn't give me any reasons why he was town.

The reason your point was wrong plus this is I did give reasons why Dunn was town. His early game. You just didn’t like that or thought I had more when really I didn’t. Those were the points I had for him being town at the time and I felt you were just...wanting more?

I clearly admitted that I was being sassy in return? Sure, I'll admit that I could be confbiasing but that's not at all what you said in your first post when you tried to get me to stop pushing him. However I think this might be a language barrier issue? Because the phrase "making up reasons" sounded like you were saying I was fabricating reasons, but based on this post it seems like what you actually mean is that I'm seeing everything as scummy even if it's not necessarily as scummy because of my bias.

Yes this is what I was trying to say, sorry if it wasn’t clear. Wording and how to properly put all my thoughts on paper/in a post can be hard at times. I’d have to go back and look at my original post in question to further comment.

When you talked to me/about Dunn, it came across like you knew we were both town and were kind of slipping that you had that knowledge.

Hm, well I can’t say much about this. I get it’s just an assumption but you’ll just have to trust I was talking in confidence not that I knew he was town.

Ah I'm getting flashbacks to last game. Let me grab some coffee

How so?

I was into a spat with someone before in a TVT fight and I was just getting flashbacks. I was even using it as my frame of reference for Votato’s push on me. Although that might be a bit unfair

[Clover Ebi]

Is paranoia the only thing stopping you from townreading Lilith Votato? Because if that's the case you should probably have her as town. At least for day 1. (Even though I think she's obvious)

[Clover Ebi]

I don't think you should let paranoia effect your reads at least for day 1. I get some people are really good at scum, but I've got my games wrong based on paranoia before. How much do your reads change if at all if we take that factor out?
pedit: No no, I mean I was thinking back to old pushes on me from townies and trying to think/compare them to some of these

[Clover Ebi]

I have played with scum votato before but I don't think that game would help me very much

[Clover Ebi]

Yeah, I guess I'm asking whether the push that is most similar came from town or scum?

Came from town

[Clover Ebi]

So are you townreading votato?

No no, what I'm saying is a referenced a town case against me to try and see if I got similar feelings to this game and I haven't got that. So, I then looked at his points themselves and I didn't really think they came from good faith

[Clover Ebi]

So I was sitting at my desk, trying to help this lovely elderly woman and on my break, I started to mull over why I have a lack of scumreads and I decided maybe I should look at this another way. If I can't find the scum maybe I should just go back to focusing in finding town and working that angle.

I would love to hear more from drusilla/Kanna/Raven/Mid because they're in my 'need more content' pile. Although I've seen a few townreads on the first 2 I think almost no one would hard defend/disagree with a lynch on the latter. I don't know if pressing them for content is a good idea because you don't want to rush reads, but this is mostly me emptying my thoughts before I forget something.

[Clover Ebi]

I probably should've added on some kind of question onto that post now that I think about it, but I can't really think of one that would really help with my reads. Hm, how about.

What do the 4 people above think about the gamestate right now? What is scum doing at the moment?

[Clover Ebi]

clover what are your thoughts about nahdia and raven?

Both of them fit into the same category for me. I wanna give them some space. I believe Raven when she says she's having a hard time getting into the game and I don't think I'd feel comfortable wagoning someone with 5 posts. Nahdia doesn't have any real confident scumreads and I've always had this feeling where if Nahdia got wagoned I wouldn't be upset but I wouldn't have a real reason to want to join the wagon either. The only real thing I remember much of from her without having to go click the ISO button is her push on beeboy who seems to be more townread than scumread. So I want to know more on why Nahdia isn't trying to convince more people.

[Clover Ebi]

I feel like I've made it very clear on what I think about the gamestate about 3 or 4 times now. Not intentionally mind you, but still
pedit:

The more I read from this game, the more confused I get.

[Clover Ebi]

I feel like I've had that same type of sentence said to me about 3 different people this game and I can't tell if I'm just being too trusting or you guys are brutal. Regardless, if she's scum and that's the angle she's going for it isn't going to do her much favors.

[Clover Ebi]

Am I missing out on why Kanna is townread cause I'd love to be clued in. I think it's hard to gauge Ravens 466 without knowing exactly where she was during the catch up. Being disconnected/having a dif viewpoint isn't scummy it's how you present it that should be what you're looking at.

[Clover Ebi]

The one thing I get that you could argue for is something Lilith brought up that Raven is scared of being in Votatos PoE and is shading them. The thing is though, it's not like Raven can just...stop. I think when she's done catching up will be most telling

[Clover Ebi]

You'd actually be surprised at the list of people I have as 'Town' being Dunnstral/Skitter/Lilith/Beeboy. I understand what you're saying though, I've been trying to look for scummy things to some extent and it gave me a headache how much I just couldn't get it. Like I could probably vote

counts

about six players and I wouldn't be terribly upset at it but I don't have reason to not vote them either.

I think my biggest problem is I'm trying to take a lot of things in good faith/being lenient.

[Clover Ebi]

Like, the cloest to scumreads I have that I can give you reasons for is Tux/Votato
I read Raven and Kanna iso again. They're not really towny and I could vote that but if you told me they'd flip town I'd believe you. So I'm mostly trying to just find townreads and make a poe because I cannot find any strong scumreads right now. Do you think I should be doing something else?
pedit: Oh no. Um. You/Kanna/...Mid?

[Clover Ebi]

Now that I'm speaking outloud I just wanna kinda move my vote to here VOTE: midway So his meta is he's scummy as town but...scummy as scum? That could be a really easily used defense and I just kinda want to put some pressure here see where it leads.
pedit: Yeah just give me a sec. Headache coming in again

[Clover Ebi]

I'm gonna just try to write all my thoughts down on paper and hopefully they make some sense/it clears things a little

[Clover Ebi]

Okay so, I know I just said I can give reasons for why Tux is scum and then in my name 3 scumreads post I don’t add him. That’s because in the moment of thinking about it I really only had two lines of thought that made me scumread Tux. I already covered the first part with his reasoning/entrance being eerily the same as Dunnstral the other part was when I questioned him on would he vote Votato the fact he said no was odd to me and I started wondering if the team was Votato/Tux but I’m not confident enough to just lock that in. So I didn’t have as much reasons as I first thought when I said it. I guess I just thought I had more to the read than I did.

As for Kanna her iso feels very safe? Like I don’t enjoy her Nahdia vote and the hedge in Lilith feels kinda like an excuse. It’s just very meh to me.

Mid could be noob town! But I don't think we have any reasonable way to differentiate that. So I kinda wanna put a vote down see where it goes. He says he hasn't read me maybe this will grab his attention say hello ya know? Get a better read going.

[Clover Ebi]

Will post more later but I have holiday plans today. Cheers!

[Clover Ebi]

i changed my mind on midway, i think i'm gut-townreading them

From what post(s)?

Bleh, I don't like this post. It seemed you were building up to a scum read on me in your catch up. Where did it go? Was it just because in your catch you saw that people weren't pushing me anymore?
VOTE: Lilith

i rather dislike this progression too

You don't think their progression on me is weird? They apparently mind-meld with Beeboy over me, which implies they scum read me, but no vote or comment on those town reading me or even on Beeboy's updated view of me. Instead, I just vanish from their posts.

This feels a bit nitpicky to me. I don’t know, it’s just to me I don’t expect people to be robots and do everything by the book right away like this and I think this is kinda obvious though? Plus if you look at Lilith it didn’t seem like she was gonna vote you from the impression I got.

630 and the posting before by Raven posts her in my townreads. I think regardless of her stances the progression is obvious and it ties together her posting and makes a bit more sense on why she’s trying to sort slots like Nahdia over the larger content posters.

How do people feel about 638 by Kanna? Do you think scum her goes after Skitter of all people? It's making me scratch my head on how to read it.

[Clover Ebi]

Also hi Starbuck!

[Clover Ebi]

Now that I'm speaking outloud I just wanna kinda move my vote to here VOTE: midway So his meta is he's scummy as town but...scummy as scum? That could be a really easily used defense and I just kinda want to put some pressure here see where it leads.
pedit: Yeah just give me a sec. Headache coming in again

I've only seen him through the lens of being scum - he tends to get pushed as a mislynch option by town throughout the game

Do you think this should play a factor in other games? I’m inclined to say no myself.

i feel like you're trying to tie yourself to raven almost ...

also here, you said it's like nahdia is trying to tie herself to raven - why would scum *try* and tie themselves to their partner?

Normally when you tie yourself to someone it’s to take them down with you on a flip. Although I don’t get how this is a major point in skitters post.

it feels like scum is trying to see what wagon will stick. votato was giving momentum to any upcoming wagon but it felt similar to his play in mantis leadership:

viewtopic.php?p=11893795&user_select%5B%5D=34221#p11893795

beeboy and kanna felt like they were feeling out support for pressuring me, whereas lilith felt like she was sorting me.

I can’t recall Kanna’s push on you but beeboy seems pretty adamant in his pressure on you. I don’t know how I feel about Votato and meta being the main reason for a defense. I know he’s subbed out but was that your only feelings on his slot? I do like the rest of your post on Kanna and would def want to explore that with you more

[Clover Ebi]

I feel like I missed all the good parts while I was away!

[Clover Ebi]

The more midway just throws shade around instead of doing much solving in his posts the more I feel comfortable with my vote on him.

[Clover Ebi]

I will admit I've been slowly edging Kanna to my scummy pile but if my townreads are saying she's town I'm more than likely wrong than correct. I should go read Skitter and Nahdia more closely after some tea.

My confident townreads are now looking something like Lilith/Skitter/Beeboy/Raven/Dunnstral

[Clover Ebi]

I feel weird that I don't have a read on Morning/Nahdia yet. Maybe I skimmed their posts? Everyone else I can say something on besides those 2. This isn't really me calling them anything more so me coming to my own shock that I don't have a read on 2 activeish slots

[Clover Ebi]

After reading the Nahdia/Skitter interaction I understand both sides and I think it would be best if meta was taken out of the conversation for the most part. One thing I do want to question though is:

@Nahdia

What do you think Skitters goal here is going from SvS to TvS on you/Raven? It kinda limits her options if she is scum, plus on your townflip from your pov Skitter would look pretty bad. What makes this so it's !scum skitter pushing you vs town skitter not understanding your meta?


I'm sad Votato isn't here anymore so I can't question him on this, but something he pushed me on is that I would always comment on someone's 'second' thoughts instead of actively doing it myself. Well, if that was scummy I don't get why he didn't scumread midway for doing the same thing? This is your spicy take from Clover.

Besides that, midway just seems to be shading slots and I don't really see much progression in his posting? Maybe it's just because his content is mostly one liners but I see barely any early game progression into somehow a reads list. It gets a bit better with the questions later on in the iso, but it just doesn't ring to me as someone trying to scumhunt.

[Clover Ebi]

A lot of your iso has little one line shades in it. It also doesn't matter if you think they're town

now

it's the fact I don't understand why you would post a lot of them in the first place.

In your Iso midway you said you have no reads at one point, and that is fine! I can understand having no real confident reads but here is all your posts between having no reads to a semi reads list

Spoiler:

why is Dunnstral town? Just because he isn't as passive as last game?

@votato it seems to me that you are trying to force discussion by making people scumread you. Since I also feel some apathy, I'll take a look at ur posts and see if I can.

nice sheeping

I think votato is town now. There was some early game stuff I didn't really like(like the aggro attitude towards lilith), but there's a lot of townie stuff too. I still don't really get his clover read, but he's been asking a lot of questions and his thoughts don't feel faked so town.

Spoiler:

midway, did you ever elaborate on your beeboy read and why you think he's town? has he done anything that pushes you in one direction or the other since you initially said this?

I don't think I did, but he still remains townie to me. I was understanding what he was saying in 351 about justifying reads, and he seems pretty open with what he's thinking in the moment which is hard to fake(?).

I’m with skitter on this one - nahdia didn’t seem to react to tux at all, only to beeboy’s reaction to tux, which links back to my hypothesis of scum being more at arms’ length from interactions

It's true that there wasn't really any thoughts on tux provided. I don't really think this is necessarily scum-indicative though.

What did you think beeboy’s post meant/what the intentions were behind it and did you think this post was scum-motivated?

I didn't think it was scum-motivated. I just didn't really understand it. I never really got the feeling that votato wanted to take a leadership role, so I didn't get why beeboy was calling him out for being passive.

Spoiler:

[

sometimes scum are just LHF though
not every scum will have a dominant presence in the game

lilith, beeboy, votato, mt are probably town
kanna seems legit
nahdia, skitter, clover, tux have a good amount of posts but I may have not been paying attention
idk about drusilla and raven
dunnstral is probably scum

I don't see how you get to this point with that iso. It feels like posting a reads list just for the sake of it.

[Clover Ebi]

I really liked 754, it read to me like townie pushback to a bad read. MT, nothing actually pings me so far, so weak townlean for now.

Hm, I think Skitter has brought up some valid points though. Do I agree with all of them? No, but do I think it's just a bad read that you can dismiss? Nope. Why don't you tell me what about it is bad and I'll give you my own thoughts after. I get your read on Skitter is semi scummy so maybe I can give some new insight on it.

LHF to me has never really been something I paid much attention to and more so tried to look at the posts itself of said LHF.
pedit: @

Mod

is my vote not on midway? I thought it has been for ages
VOTE: MidwayVOTE:

[Clover Ebi]

VOTE: midway NOOOOO

[Clover Ebi]

im pretty sure mt is town
i think I townread everyone who is trying to do the poe solve. IDK why though. votato is townie, MT is townie, and clover is also somewhat townie.
pedit: indeed, because votato asked me to post one so I did

Oh I guess that makes a bit more sense, but if Votato did ask you for a reads list how did you get each of those reads?

[Clover Ebi]

Hmmmmm I can't wagon Starbuck I would feel bad. I could move to Tux...but I don't have a reason to really move either.

This is why I don't try to lead wagons much.

[Clover Ebi]

Like, I understand your response, but it doesn't really change my opinion on the situation much.

[Clover Ebi]

Should be active again now that work is settling down. When I get home I'll catch up

[Clover Ebi]

Got a bit bummed out so I did some R&R here now though.

I will admit I've been slowly edging Kanna to my scummy pile but if my townreads are saying she's town I'm more than likely wrong than correct. I should go read Skitter and Nahdia more closely after some tea.

My confident townreads are now looking something like Lilith/Skitter/Beeboy/Raven/Dunnstral

Hey ftr I don’t think kanna is particularly towny, and also you should have more faith in yourself.

It's not that...I think my reads are bad (even though I do have a confidence problem) for me I'm a very team based person and player so if a lot of my confident townreads are calling a slot town I don't want to tunnel a slot when that probably means I am wrong. I think putting your heads together and hearing everything out is more helpful that way.

Also @Clover how were you reading votato/how are you reading starbuck?

I was reading Votato as scum, Starbucks catch up isn't really doing much to sway me away from that direction. She seems a lot more approachable than votato though so that's a plus!

How do people feel about 638 by Kanna? Do you think scum her goes after Skitter of all people? It's making me scratch my head on how to read it.

what do you think of the content of my post?

I can't really compare it to the other game since you were gone so soon, but it's...fine? I think it's tame? Like I couldn't write a case on why you'd be scum right now besides the fact that your content feels very reharsed in a way that I don't really get townie vibes from. But some people have you as very strong townreads so I'm pasung on that read.


I agree with midway that Tuxs questions in 855 feel like asking for the sake of asking than genuinely wanting/following up on an answer.

[Clover Ebi]

Link to VC on this page.

Really like 865 from drusilla maybe cause it’s a post I can wrap my head around. Even if I haven’t played with their main It feels like taking experience from a scum game and trying to use it for merit but it’s not in a bad way where people sometimes say that they do x as scum so it’s likely y is scum.

I am very flattered that me struggling with this game has somehow made me Mornings top townread.

In 875 by beeboy I thought he brought up a point I wanna talk more about that being partner flips. It’s been a hot topic and I just want to know if people think it’s scummy to make them. I know I do them myself because I like to think ahead a lot of time, but should partner reads influence your main read on a slot? I don’t think so. Okay thank you for coming to my Clover talk.

What's so obvious about her? I haven't played with her before.

I feel like Lilith is very aggro and keeping up with her fire and conviction for the game. I’ve already stated why she’s an early game townread from before and I liked when I interacted with her. I don’t really see much of an agenda in her posting, plus I’m a sucker for things like “This is out of my scumrange” with such confidence!

Yeah, I don't see the logic behind this vote. Pressure for the sake of pressure, but you're not reading him as scum? Just seems like an easy out and a sheeping of Nahdia's read.

Huh? No, I am scumreading midway a bit and I wanted to see if people would join me but that doesn’t seem to be the case with such little time we have left. With the way mid is just playing and the way his content is going I don’t see much changing my mind and the longer he’s here the more unsettled I get, but with his meta I can understand why people don’t wanna vote him.

[Clover Ebi]

Tux/Star aren't scum together with there interactions and I wasn't expecting my 3/3 read to be right but it getting thrown in my face isn't that great. I would vote Nahdia over Skitter here but I will keep my vote on mid because atm the only things I see for reasons on why he's not voted is meta. I mean, of course we could leave him up to PRs in that case but between who's around for day 2 that I think could get townier and change my mind it's Nahdia over mid.

[Clover Ebi]

VOTE: Starbuck Woohoo!

Okay I feel like I need to play mediator a little because this conversation has gone for pages and I feel like at this point it can let some people just sit back and watch as Lilith/Skitter/Raven/Nahdia post walls at each other.

@Raven/Nahdia do you see how the way you guys are playing around each other could be considered buddying to some extent?
@Skitter How do you feel about joining us on a Starbuck wagon. Also, could you see in a world where Raven/Nahdia are TvT that your logic doesn't make sense in there eyes or do you think all your points have been on point/they should have no problem with it?
@Lilith Good vote

I know at least for me when I see people coming to my defense against a case that I don't think is logical it can lead me to townreading/buddying the other player in question and that may be the case here regardless of AI for Nahdia/Raven. I think the best way to go at this is not base it on team and go for the slots one at a time and figure it out in that matter. Yes, I get Skitter has things that make them look worse together, but that shouldn't be the main point of a read.

I probably missed some points from all parties because I am guilty of skimming a bit but I want to try and settle this with an outside party such as myself or someone else since most of you have me as town it could be easier to bounce your thoughts off of me?

[Clover Ebi]

Because between midway and Starbuck I would much rather lynch midway. Still do tbh, but if this'll get more attraction I'll do it.

[Clover Ebi]

An idea: We vote midway and we all interact with Starbuck tomorrow? Eh ehhh? No? Okay I'll just be here

[Clover Ebi]

Finishing up my lunch break but I'll switch to Nahdia if needed but I don't see myself voting Skitter here

[Clover Ebi]

Finishing up my lunch break but I'll switch to Nahdia if needed but I don't see myself voting Skitter here

Why would you switch off Starbuck?

Is this a trick question?

[Clover Ebi]

I feel like I've openly started my preferences being along the lines of Midway>Starbuck>Nahdia

[Clover Ebi]

There's no such thing as stupid questions in my eyes. Unless we're talking about ice cream flavors than any answer that isn't cookie dough is stupid

[Clover Ebi]

I wish I had more time because I have stuff I wanted to talk about/respond too but the most pressing thing right now is getting a lynch

[Clover Ebi]

I would rather vote midway but I think my townreads would rather vote Starbuck if I'm reading the room right? I'm conflicted

[Clover Ebi]

I would rather vote midway but I think my townreads would rather vote Starbuck if I'm reading the room right? I'm conflicted

Your town reads were also stating that Nahdia was their highest scumread, but are voting for me. So how does that make sense?

I've said I'd change to Nahdia but Skitter changed thinking I wouldn't. What part isn't making sense here?

[Clover Ebi]

Beeboy is Starbuck towny enough that you want to give her a chance and we should do midway? Or do you want to get the Nahdia wagon going. I'll admit I wouldn't be keen on Nahdia but since that'd mean you skitter and Lilith all seem good on it I'd join
pedit: Oh

[Clover Ebi]

I would rather vote midway but I think my townreads would rather vote Starbuck if I'm reading the room right? I'm conflicted

Your town reads were also stating that Nahdia was their highest scumread, but are voting for me. So how does that make sense?

I've said I'd change to Nahdia but Skitter changed thinking I wouldn't. What part isn't making sense here?

So why didn't you swap then? I would have gone there as well, but skitter decided to be all OMGUS when she's nowhere near elimination.

TBH she's way too testy and out of the two, I'd prefer to eliminate her, but I'd go to Nahdia just to resolve that shit.

Lilith voted you and I followed. I understand wanting to resolve Nahdia and part of me agrees with it. The next time I would've been free to vote Nahdia the wagon already went down.

[Clover Ebi]

My worry that Starbuck just brought up is Nahdia/Skitter/Raven etc just becoming a thing the next day if we're wrong, but besides that I don't mind trusting you on this since midway was who I wanted at first as well and I'll just have to swallow the bullet if we're wrong here and lose any credibility I ever had if any

VOTE: Midway

[Clover Ebi]

If Starbuck was less reasonable/enjoyable I'd probably want her dead more. Wait, that sounds really bad but I don't mean that as in-my headache is setting in I should probably stop talking sorry

[Clover Ebi]

@Tux the main reason I want to flip mid over Starbucks is yes, I have stronger feelings on Star scum but I can see my opinion changing on her where I don't see that happening on mid atm if that makes sense?

[Clover Ebi]

I want to please all my townreads but I can't do that and it's making me overthink/my headache get worse and I know I'm just being entirely unreasonable and I should probably lay down

[Clover Ebi]

I want to please all my townreads but I can't do that and it's making me overthink/my headache get worse and I know I'm just being entirely unreasonable and I should probably lay down

Why do you want to please your town reads?

I trust my townreads to read people as scum correctly more than myself a lot more than you'd think

[Clover Ebi]

I want to please all my townreads but I can't do that and it's making me overthink/my headache get worse and I know I'm just being entirely unreasonable and I should probably lay down

Why do you want to please your town reads?

I trust my townreads to read people as scum correctly more than myself a lot more than you'd think

Right, that's where I was when I voted Nahdia. But the phrasing of "pleasing them" sounds weird.

What would've been better to use so I know for future reference.


@Skitter/Lilith do you not get my reasoning for voting midway?

[Clover Ebi]

@Beeboy do we flip to Star or no?

[Clover Ebi]

I've never flipped scum before on this site and I feel like the moment I do it'll be super obvious
pedit: Wait a minute...

[Clover Ebi]

I get the merit behind wanting to kill Star

but do people not get the merit behind wanting to kill Mid?

[Clover Ebi]

VOTE: Starbuck

[Clover Ebi]

I can just see the glares headed my way if I stick on mid and I don't like peer pressure

[Clover Ebi]

Was I the only one genuinely scumhunting? Awkward

[Clover Ebi]

I am so confused...

[Clover Ebi]

Don't vote in the cop claims

[Clover Ebi]

Huh?

[Clover Ebi]

There's no way I could play my day 1 like that if I was scum though. Although I don't know why you thought my today came from scum?

[Clover Ebi]

Also I'm still wanting people to answer my day start question.
pedit: No, I am a werewolf I just thought this game was multiball so I was scumhunting the other pair the entire game

[Clover Ebi]

Not a single one of my posts was faked and I was always scumhunting/trying to find scum/town. I was wondering if others were doing the same thing.

[Clover Ebi]

Also I'm still wanting people to answer my day start question.
pedit: No, I am a werewolf I just thought this game was multiball so I was scumhunting the other pair the entire game

But you said:

There's no way I could play my day 1 like that if I was scum though. Although I don't know why you thought my today came from scum?

Except... you should have thought you were scum on day 1, so the argument shouldn't make sense. Cognitive dissonance at work here

That's not true. All I knew was that me and my partner were werewolves and at worst all I had to do was 'fake' a townread on them. Besides that all my thoughts and posts were genuine and I was trying to scumhunt. So yes, I was 'scum' but I was playing entirely like I was town. You can even ask my partner

[Clover Ebi]

Clover are you saying that you thought you were a wolf and there's no way your play would come from mafia for some reason?

Unlike other people who were claiming to have faked there play or something like that I wasn't. I was still playing like town me would because in my mind I was hunting for another scum team. So all my thoughts and interactions came from a good place. It would've started to be a scum game for me if that other team died and I had to protect my partner but it never came to that. If I was the real scum in this case I wouldn't have been hunting people because I would be informed.

[Clover Ebi]

Clover are you saying that you thought you were a wolf and there's no way your play would come from mafia for some reason?

Unlike other people who were claiming to have faked there play or something like that I wasn't. I was still playing like town me would because in my mind I was hunting for another scum team. So all my thoughts and interactions came from a good place. It would've started to be a scum game for me if that other team died and I had to protect my partner but it never came to that. If I was the real scum in this case I wouldn't have been hunting people because I would be informed.

But then you can't say you wouldn't play like that as scum, because you would clearly

No I wouldn't because if I was scum my day 1 wouldn't be like that.

[Clover Ebi]

I can't tell if I'm not making sense or Dunnstral is being purposely obtuse.

[Clover Ebi]

Does this mean we aren't masonries despite it *sort of* suggesting we are? Fucking hell

Oh dear...

[Clover Ebi]

What is Nahdia at right now?

[Clover Ebi]

What is Nahdia at right now?

What are your other reads before we go to night?

The same as they were on day 1. But I do trust drusilla because they outted first.

[Clover Ebi]

Everyone should go read their partner pt in a new light.

[Clover Ebi]

Everyone should go read their partner pt in a new light.

My partner asked me at the very start of the game if I 'wanted to claim my role'

Their justification today is that they have seen complicated roles like day vig and didn't want to play like they knew it was coming

What do you think of that?

That uh, doesn't seem very good now that we know what's going on.

[Clover Ebi]

I'll let the others look at the way Beeboy/Dunnstral both outright flipped their tune and attacked me as the day started even though my play should show otherwise.

[Clover Ebi]

I'll let the others look at the way Beeboy/Dunnstral both outright flipped their tune and attacked me as the day started even though my play should show otherwise.

I don't think your play shows otherwise. I think you're playing the same as you were pre-reveal.

Exactly!

[Clover Ebi]

I think it's best I ignore Dunnstral since he's never going to understand what I'm saying, but that's more my fault than anything else.

[Clover Ebi]

I think it's best I ignore Dunnstral since he's never going to understand what I'm saying, but that's more my fault than anything else.

Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt I don't think it makes sense for you to be pushing me if it's more your fault

You're snap pushing me for something you're not understanding and that's the part that makes me feel weird. Because if you don't fully understand you shouldn't be pushing me. Nor have you even explained how anything I posted comes from mafia. You just latched onto my response after the fact.

[Clover Ebi]

I was finding Tux a bit off because of his 'slip' that me and dru found day 1 but I guess if he's partners with nahdia they're probably not together?

[Clover Ebi]

I wanna know how people feel about Raven/Nahdia now that Nahdia is outted. It looks pretty bad to me

[Clover Ebi]

I think it's best I ignore Dunnstral since he's never going to understand what I'm saying, but that's more my fault than anything else.

Even if I give you the benefit of the doubt I don't think it makes sense for you to be pushing me if it's more your fault

You're snap pushing me for something you're not understanding and that's the part that makes me feel weird. Because if you don't fully understand you shouldn't be pushing me. Nor have you even explained how anything I posted comes from mafia. You just latched onto my response after the fact.

OK let me explain this.

I think you should be going:
scum -> town

Instead you appear to be going:
scum -> scum

There's no perceptible shift in your gameplay, therefore I suspect you.

Further your "let's not lynch either of the cops' was super scummy on its own too. it was highly unlikely Nahdia was a cop with Kanna being a rolecop pushing them

There's no shift in my gameplay because none of my gameplay needs to be shifted and this is what I've been trying to explain three times now. If Nahdia is my mafia partner why would I defend her right now when she was planning to out on the next page as well?

[Clover Ebi]

I wanna know how people feel about Raven/Nahdia now that Nahdia is outted. It looks pretty bad to me

...

Wait Skitter don't look at me like that please I would've flipped with you I promise

[Clover Ebi]

I wanna know how people feel about Raven/Nahdia now that Nahdia is outted. It looks pretty bad to me

...

Wait Skitter don't look at me like that please I would've flipped with you I promise

People were scumreading me so hard day1 for saying this ...

I've been townreading you from the start you know this.

[Clover Ebi]

Leave me alone Dunnstral!

[Clover Ebi]

beeboys interaction with Nahdia was pretty good hmmm.

[Clover Ebi]

Wait so were Star/Lilith together?

[Clover Ebi]

What if one of the mafia were paired with Lilith so they killed her and faked being with a partner.

[Clover Ebi]

Our group thought it was multiball so we were scumhunting and giving real townreads. The only read in the entire game we didn't push that we thought could be mafia was Tux, but I still was scumreading them.

So yes, I was playing like town and so was my partner unlike others from what I am hearing?

[Clover Ebi]

Tux/Mid/Raven hm

[Clover Ebi]

Just because your play wouldn't be different doesn't mean my own wouldn't. This is the hill I will die on dam it!

[Clover Ebi]

Raven is ww

Then Tux/Mid?

[Clover Ebi]

That means a pairing is scum and it's most likely Tux.

[Clover Ebi]

You have no reason to scumread me but I'm gonna go back to work anyway because it's not like I'm getting lynched today so I don't need to worry.

[Clover Ebi]

Dw MT I’m positive I won’t be lynched this game.

[Clover Ebi]

Woohoo short work calls. I think we wait for raven and then we’re good to go

[Clover Ebi]

drusilla you should hear me out more. In the pt

[Clover Ebi]

I have nothing else to really say today that I want others to comment on or make assumptions about. Plus I don’t know if she’s reading the pt or not but ik she’ll read the thread

[Clover Ebi]

Oh MT/Skitter if tux is town do you agree with me that the scum pairing has to be bee and Dunn? It can’t be mid unless one of star or Lilith we’re alone but that’s unlikely

[Clover Ebi]

I have said nothing of the sort.

[Clover Ebi]

I don't believe beeboy and Dunnstral are this unaware, but Skitter says I'm wrong so I'm still probably gonna lynch Tux

[Clover Ebi]

I don't believe beeboy and Dunnstral are this unaware, but Skitter says I'm wrong so I'm still probably gonna lynch Tux

Unaware of what?
Also I think my last post points to dunnstral being obvious town yes yes?
Does someone with a second scum PT just start talking about the really wolfy things they are doing to me that don't even benefit me?

None of what your saying makes Dunnstral obvious town. The whole point of this game is to shift from your scum meta to your town meta so this burst you're speaking of fits right in line with what I would expect scum to do here. Plus your fake interactions you're on about don't help either because they can easily be SvS.

[Clover Ebi]

I don't think you understand that both me and Drusilla are both closer to clear than either you or Dunn. What are scum going to do? Roleblock drusilla and kill Kanna? The reverse? Some of these won't work for reasons I won't go into but it'll be clear why were not scum. I'm not just basing my townread based of pt stuff and the fact you're both hard pushing part of our pair together looks pretty partnerish if you ask me. If Tux flips scum I'll probably be asking Skitter more about Raven but if he flips town I don't see how it isn't you guys

[Clover Ebi]

I've been pretty open in my statement of you guys being the worst pair alive.

[Clover Ebi]

Okay now you're adding Drusilla to this when you didn't say anything about them before. I don't think you're trying to figure out either of our alignments I think you're just trying to throw whatever you can together to make sure you and Dunnstral stay alive and throw mud on me and Drusilla.

[Clover Ebi]

Tone change from yesterday to now is not AI

[Clover Ebi]

Like come on guys I'm used to people pushing my slot even though I've been 'obvious town' in every game I've played but it doesn't feel like you're even trying to work on things.
pedit: How so? I believe scum are smart enough to know how to change their tone since they expected it.

[Clover Ebi]

Me and drusilla aren't egging each other on or saying anything about your slots in the pt. We've both come to our own answer that you guys are being super scummy. That should tell you something.

[Clover Ebi]

Alright I think anyone can tell that these 2 are both putting words into my mouth and openly trying to dismiss anything I say. It's flailing and scummy

[Clover Ebi]

It's very obvious when you're talking with someone if they're trying to figure out your alignment or they come in with an agenda that they're not changing and they're both showing it isn't the former.

[Clover Ebi]

And my play was me playing as town me would trying to find the other scum team and scumhunt.

If I was really scum I wouldn't be able to do that because there's a 3 person scumteam and I would have to fake pushes. I cannot do that as scum. I can't have my ranty trains of thoughts it's just not what I've ever done. So you trying to say me not shifting my tone is AI makes me go ?

[Clover Ebi]

I never said you guys were TvS once because I wouldn't make that statement.

[Clover Ebi]

If I was really scum I wouldn't be able to do that because there's a 3 person scumteam and I would have to fake pushes. I cannot do that as scum.

What's the difference between a 3 person scumteam and a 2 person scumteam in this situation?

Are you trying to say there's only 2 scum and I'm it with Nahdia?

[Clover Ebi]

If I was really scum I wouldn't be able to do that because there's a 3 person scumteam and I would have to fake pushes. I cannot do that as scum.

What's the difference between a 3 person scumteam and a 2 person scumteam in this situation?

Are you trying to say there's only 2 scum and I'm it with Nahdia?

I'm trying to say what's the difference between you thinking you're a wolf with drusilla, and you thinking you're mafia with nahdia and 1 other person

Because I thought it was multiball so I was able to genuinely scumhunt

I wouldn't be able to do that if I was mafia because we'd have a three person scum team.

[Clover Ebi]

I cannot believe I got into a 2 page argument with beeboy based off an assumption. I need some tea

[Clover Ebi]

I find it hard to believe that you can't see why people would think you're both SvS with the way you're playing this phase.

[Clover Ebi]

I'm just sad because of drusilla just hushed we would've been clear by tomorrow and now neither of us are.

[Clover Ebi]

I find it hard to believe that you can't see why people would think you're both SvS with the way you're playing this phase.

Multiple players have agreed with my theory about alignment swapping changing a player's tone and you said you don't understand why I am applying to you?
I can make this exact same statement towards you.

Idk I think to establish us as SvS you have to deem me playing along side Dunnstral with a 3rd buddy (Nahdia) yet I bus one and hard protect the other.
I don't think my treatment of who you know is scum and who you think my scum buddy is, isn't even slightly consistent.

That's why I don't think I am SvS and I don't think you are humoring that world and are tunneling down just how I am approaching this 1v1.
I am expanding my thoughts on the very least Drusilla to how she interacted with Nahdia.

I'm waiting for this post about Drusilla that you haven't showed me yet. Don't think I'm unaware of the fact that I gave Drusilla a very clear way to clear both of us and she got rid of it just as soon as I presented it. I'm not stupid
I don't see the issue with you bussing partner A but not partner B nor how it is clearing how you treat 1 scum vs another unless I'm missing the point

[Clover Ebi]

Don't think I'm unaware of the fact that I gave Drusilla a very clear way to clear both of us and she got rid of it just as soon as I presented it. I'm not stupid

What do you mean? They still have to kill the cop or the watcher claim, so they would die or they have to fake something

If Drusilla was town they had no idea the watcher claim existed so when the cop died Drusilla would have to out who the scum or claimed roleblocked, a very unlikely case.
Now that she's outted herself for almost no reason, the cop claim can die and her claiming roleblocked would make perfect sense. It's bad very bad.

[Clover Ebi]

How do we know there’s a role blocker?

That's not the point

[Clover Ebi]

VOTE: Nahdia

[Clover Ebi]

I've never played with Raven before this game by the way. So I have no idea what she's on about. However, I don't have much else to really say about this game in general I've hit a dead end so I'll lurk in my pt until needed/wanted

[Clover Ebi]

VOTE: Chara

[Clover Ebi]

Regardless of what mafia should have or what roles make the most sense in this game it's pretty cut and dry at the moment. Best not to overthink it.

[Clover Ebi]

As long as people vote Chara I will be a happy Clover

[Clover Ebi]

When Chara flips mafia who do you guys think is their most likely partner?

[Clover Ebi]

Shouldn't the reason dru is town be very obvious?

[Clover Ebi]

We have a guilty claim from her that we have no reason to doubt! Plus if she was scum why guilty a partner?

[Clover Ebi]

Can I ask why we're going down this path? Am I missing something here? Shouldn't we be asking each other who the last mafia is not asking the outted one questions that the mafia can provide fake claims for? I'm genuinely asking this by the way it seems a bit rude when I read it but I don't know how else to word it

[Clover Ebi]

I have no reason to believe you're town Chara I apologize

[Clover Ebi]

Can I ask why we're going down this path? Am I missing something here? Shouldn't we be asking each other who the last mafia is not asking the outted one questions that the mafia can provide fake claims for? I'm genuinely asking this by the way it seems a bit rude when I read it but I don't know how else to word it

while i think it's likely dru is telling the truth, i'm still a little cautious:

- setup-wise / scum-decision-making-wise the fact that she's alive is weird
- you blanket-trusting her because of a claim is weird, esp. after yesterday
- before all this went down, tux was my biggest townread

so i guess just before i commit to a vote (and like still v probably voting chara) i just want to cover my bases

1) Yeah it is pretty weird, but we don't know what the scum have so it's best to not overthink and go into what ifs right?
2) Why is that odd?
3) Really? Tux was someone I was scumreading from before all this started so this is odd.

[Clover Ebi]

I have no reason to believe you're town Chara I apologize

i was wondering if you were scum but this makes me really doubt it.
it's okay, ahaha. maybe i'd be upset if i'd been here since the beginning, but it's fine. still, even in that case i'd consider it a good thing to grill the player you're going to vote... in the majority of situations?

I understand that! I get why people are doing it, but I wouldn't consider that the most important thing to be talking about in my own eyes. You seem very pleasant it's a shame you weren't here from the start!

[Clover Ebi]

Clover why are you playing in absolutes?
Don't get me wrong I strongly believe me and Skitter are wasting our time but I think it's the correct way of doing it.


I just find it odd you're approaching your read on Drusilla this entire game with utmost certainty.
Noughts and Crosses you just didn't strike me as someone to play like this at all?

I'm a player who likes thinking of future events. I also like to townread people until proven otherwise. The main reason I've seen to doubt Drusilla is a reason I myself brought up but almost no one commented on. Along with a Nahdia interaction. Regardless of my personal viewpoint on her is it not as simple as we lynch Chara and Drusilla if it's wrong?

Are you saying it's weird that I'm showing a bit of confidence? Well, this game is different. I can't play this game like I would normally it goes against my entire style because people were playing like werewolves and all of day 1 I was saying I couldn't find scumreads. I would have to restart the game all over again and feel even more useless than before. I'm not confident, in fact this is probably the least confident I've been in any mafia game. That's why I'm trying to rely on others than myself. Is that what feels different?

[Clover Ebi]

1) Yeah it is pretty weird, but we don't know what the scum have so it's best to not overthink and go into what ifs right?
2) Why is that odd?
3) Really? Tux was someone I was scumreading from before all this started so this is odd.

2. i mean i guess i think that it's more likely dru is telling the truth than not, but i don't see why *you* think that?
3. can you give me a refresher? why did you think tux was scum?

2) Why shouldn't I think that?
3) The way he played the early game felt really scummy to me. Along with the fact me and Dru noted that Tux probably slipped a few times. We just didn't push it because fear of getting night killed when we thought the game was multiball but Tux has always been a scumread of mine.

[Clover Ebi]

We have a guilty claim from her that we have no reason to doubt! Plus if she was scum why guilty a partner?

and like do you just automatically believe all investigative claims by default?

Do you have any reason to doubt the claim?

[Clover Ebi]

Unless you think there's a world where Dru/Chara is TvT and somehow Chara was forced to visit a target then I don't see any reason to not believe the claim. Do you think I'm being too trusting?

[Clover Ebi]

2) Why shouldn't I think that?
3) The way he played the early game felt really scummy to me. Along with the fact me and Dru noted that Tux probably slipped a few times. We just didn't push it because fear of getting night killed when we thought the game was multiball but Tux has always been a scumread of mine.

2. i mean i guess between dru/chara why do you think dru is telling the truth? like i'm not sure i have a reason to doubt the claim but the circumstances are a bit weird (like why is she even alive to be able to give this is confusing me) so the fact that you don't have any doubt i'm finding a bit strange
3. can you give some examples of tux slipping?

2) I'm positive that Drusilla is telling the truth skitter you should trust me on this. Look at the most likely option and it starts making a ton of sense.
3) Tux made a post to Lilith about there being 2 scum that me and Dru instantly caught onto and figured it was a slip, but we couldn't push it for obvious reasons.

[Clover Ebi]

wait why is that a slip vs all of thinking we're in a 2man werewolf team?

This is when we thought the game was multiball and Tux was talking about 2 man scumteams. From a multiball pov that looked like a pretty big slip to me

[Clover Ebi]

I'm going to stop talking about the watcher thing, it's not helpful or important. If you want to suspect me for it we can get into it tomorrow. Sorry I just don't see a need to go on about it okay? I get a lot of you have a style of play that is about suspecting and going into every little detail, but that's not me.

[Clover Ebi]

I'm a player who likes thinking of future events. I also like to townread people until proven otherwise. The main reason I've seen to doubt Drusilla is a reason I myself brought up but almost no one commented on. Along with a Nahdia interaction. Regardless of my personal viewpoint on her is it not as simple as we lynch Chara and Drusilla if it's wrong?

Are you saying it's weird that I'm showing a bit of confidence? Well, this game is different. I can't play this game like I would normally it goes against my entire style because people were playing like werewolves and all of day 1 I was saying I couldn't find scumreads. I would have to restart the game all over again and feel even more useless than before. I'm not confident, in fact this is probably the least confident I've been in any mafia game. That's why I'm trying to rely on others than myself. Is that what feels different?

re:confidence, kinda?

This game has too much power and only me, dunnstral and skitter seem to be aware of that.
I rely on others frequently, although I find even if I trust someones reads I am not going to trust them or not question what is going on I guess? Before I concluded Raven was town I strongly though Skitter was town and sort of just let it happen.

Scum is between, You and MT. Everyone else I strongly think is town for a tell you disagree with which is basically large shifts between when they rolled scum and now.
I also just think it's unlikely scum wouldn't be paired with a PR because I seriously don't see how scum play around this level of power without near full setup knowledge which s till isn't enough. Not to mention Mid had the best reaction day start.

I think Drusilla could be scum because scum should have a ninja or a roleblocker, which makes me think the action was "allowed" to happen if I am wrong on my reads. But that is a giga tinfoil I am not sure I want to act on hence scum being between you and MT.

I won't go into the tone shift given I think that's just wrong/incorrect. There's no way MT doesn't kill there cop partner. So your poe is already incorrect from my point of view. I was starting to come around to Chara town due to things I cannot talk about, but a result is a result. You're not the only one who sees that the power is wacky but without all the answers its best to not question such a thing and look at things from a basic point of view. We have one scum in two slots that is the basics. You don't need to look at it from any other manner.

I don't think what you and skitter are doing is very productive and is pretty easy to fake.

[Clover Ebi]

I don't have the chops or power to vote who I think is scum so I know someone from my pair is on the block tomorrow but, I don't think either of us should be.
pedit: It isn't useful! You and I were the two most likely lynch options assuming no result came out today. But there's no reason for Dru to lie about it and I'm 100% positive she isn't.

[Clover Ebi]

This is a very hard conversation to have because of how strong this playstyle clash is and I can't tell if I'm not explaining properly or people don't understand. I've never been the best with words but I hope I'm coming across mostly clear.

[Clover Ebi]

I don't get how any of Skitter/Beeboy/Dunnstral have the pov they're trying to present with the logic that is on the table. I should probably mull on it a little

[Clover Ebi]

I don't have the chops or power to vote who I think is scum so I know someone from my pair is on the block tomorrow but, I don't think either of us should be.
pedit: It isn't useful! You and I were the two most likely lynch options assuming no result came out today. But there's no reason for Dru to lie about it and I'm 100% positive she isn't.

wait, why are you or drusilla on the chopping block tomorrow?

Me: When the setup was revealed that we're all werewolves and not scum my tone didn't change because I was one of the few people who were genuinely scumhunting instead of playing like a werewolf so my tone didn't go from Scum-->town but Town--Town.
Drusilla: Nahdia defended her a bit and everyone else is more town.

[Clover Ebi]

I don't get how any of Skitter/Beeboy/Dunnstral have the pov they're trying to present with the logic that is on the table. I should probably mull on it a little

sorry :/ what part is confusing and i can try to explain how i came to my conclusions agian

If Chara flips scum who are you likely looking at
Same if they flip town please. This has a point to it I promise

[Clover Ebi]

I don't have the chops or power to vote who I think is scum so I know someone from my pair is on the block tomorrow but, I don't think either of us should be.
pedit: It isn't useful! You and I were the two most likely lynch options assuming no result came out today. But there's no reason for Dru to lie about it and I'm 100% positive she isn't.

wait, why are you or drusilla on the chopping block tomorrow?

Me: When the setup was revealed that we're all werewolves and not scum my tone didn't change because I was one of the few people who were genuinely scumhunting instead of playing like a werewolf so my tone didn't go from Scum-->town but Town--Town.
Drusilla: Nahdia defended her a bit and everyone else is more town.

but if i flip scum, why would you or especially drusilla ever be in danger?

I honestly don't know. I don't get how me and Drusilla are scum if you are. I wish that was explained more but all I know is Beeboy and Dunnstral have actively thought I was scum for my tone not changing where if you've played with me before I feel like my explanation makes perfect sense.

[Clover Ebi]

Okay Skitter your pov doesn't make sense to me nor does theirs because you're going on about how power doesn't make sense so this is weird but shouldn't you be asking that about...other things?

If midway is scum he's solo with no idea who someone else's or is (a nerf to the scum team)
If me or Dru is scum scum knew that town had:
A body guard
A even night watcher
A global back up

that seems odd too doesn't it?

[Clover Ebi]

Drusilla is telling the truth and not faking the result I can tell you this for fact this is a waste of conversation aaa. We should just be voting Chara

[Clover Ebi]

And here is my point Skitter: All these case are super odd and strange! So we should stop trying to worry about it and just vote who we think is scum and go with the simple answer until otherwise! Woo Clover logic

[Clover Ebi]

I just don't see why Dru claiming a guilty outed scum matters.
We concluded Tux was scum yesterday?

No we didn't

[Clover Ebi]

There was a really good theory that I looked into after drusilla brought it up and I was going to vote for Skitter coming into this day phase until I saw the watch result

[Clover Ebi]

There was a really good theory that I looked into after drusilla brought it up and I was going to vote for Skitter coming into this day phase until I saw the watch result

the lilith-skitter raven-starbuck thing?

Mhm!

[Clover Ebi]

I had a post in my notes ready to come in with the hail mary skitter vote then I saw the watch result and just, sadly deleted my notes

[Clover Ebi]

It does feel like I've been brushed aside to just a poe read when I was one of the top townreads on day 1 but I don't know if those were all fake so I can't tell. I felt like my reasoning for me being town made sense though

[Clover Ebi]

It does feel like I've been brushed aside to just a poe read when I was one of the top townreads on day 1 but I don't know if those were all fake so I can't tell. I felt like my reasoning for me being town made sense though

bruh you are scum, so being townie D1 shouldn't mean anything

And as I've been...trying to say. I was not playing like scum the entire game.

[Clover Ebi]

And as I've been...trying to say. I was not playing like scum the entire game.

why does you playing like town D1 mean we should townread you now though?

Because if I was scum I would not be able to play my day 1 like I did.

[Clover Ebi]

so you are town?

Exactly!

[Clover Ebi]

Huh?

[Clover Ebi]

your death doesn't exonorate clover and we wouldn't know which pair it was either. like yes there has to be scum in a pair/midway but we thought that yesterday anyways

your death doesn't exonorate clover and we wouldn't know which pair it was either. like yes there has to be scum in a pair/midway but we thought that yesterday anyways

i think clover is the most likely mafia. my death if chara was a werewolf would exonerate clover and midwaybear. thus killing me means chara is mafia, just the same as leaving me alive to red check him did.

Town!Clover doesn’t have any trouble making detailed readslist with logical reasoning behind it, that was the main thing that pinged me when Dunn made his case on him.

Sure I haven't made a reads list this game but if you look at my day 1 I think you'll see how it fits into my other games.

[Clover Ebi]

Why are you asking this when the only game we've played together I can't talk about Raven

[Clover Ebi]

Huh?

Why haven’t you yet done a detailed ordered readslist like you have in every game I’ve played with you where you were town?

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