Mini Theme 2172: Great Idea Mafia - Game Over

[iamausername]

VOTE: Rannygazoo

naked vote on NPOM in the midst of discussion surrounding his claim is scummy. explain yourself.

[iamausername]

Greetings,

did you randomly select NPOM for your random vote based on his claim, or were the two events entirely unrelated?

Best Wishes,

[iamausername]

I did see that there was a gravedigger claim, but I didn’t realize at the time that it was from NPOM.

i find the minor details here to make your story believable. you could have said the claim drew your attention and was thusly the reason for your vote, you could have said that you hadn't seen the claim at all, but saying neither is an unexpected twist.

you have passed the test. congratulations.

UNVOTE: Rannygazoo
VOTE: Assemblerotws

how can Noraa's failure to look into the game's setup before joining it be a reason to vote her? she didn't have her role PM before joining the game. explain yourself.

[iamausername]

Herta giving off major "you caught me for the wrong reasons" vibes here.

keeping my vote where it is for now, because a) i don't know how close Herta is to execution, and b) Assemble has given me no reason to stop wanting to vote him, but Herta wagon is good wagon.

[iamausername]

Gamestate hasn't changed since the last time I posted. Herta wagon still bad.

not sure i get your position here. you think that Herta is scummy, and that his wagon is townlead, but you also think it's bad? just because no one is really pushing against it? consider that we likely have multiple small scum factions, and i don't think that's a reason to doubt that Herta is scum.

VOTE: Herta

i know how close he is to execution now. this is E-2.

Assemble should not take my change of vote to mean that he has lurked his way out of having to explain himself.

[iamausername]

You’re in my scum reads so I don’t feel the need to convince you of anything. Tunnel all you want. You’re not going to help town anyway.

when did you start scumreading redcardinal and why?

[iamausername]

I don’t decide who I’m going to accuse first and then come up with reasons later.-

I can iso dive and build a more thorough case.

lol

VOTE: Rannygazoo

[iamausername]

@username do you see town motivation in Titus’s posts?

yes.

[iamausername]

words

This sticks out to me as a weak vote

wrong it's great

[iamausername]

a watcher could expose NPOM as a liar by just using their role as normal actually

if they watch someone who gets night killed, they'll see both the real killer and NPOM target that person if he is telling the truth

trackers should absolutely not bother tracking him though

[iamausername]

then he woudn't be a liar would he!!!

[iamausername]

ranny are you going to isodive redcardinal to strengthen your case

you didn;t have to stop just because i voted you for it

[iamausername]

alright, i owe this game some effort. i've been neglecting it, but i died in the other one so you have my full attention now. time to reread and break this thing open.

[iamausername]

Frankly embarrassed for town that it took us so long to realize that there’s a scum gravedigger

then what's this supposed to mean

I mean it took a really long time for someone (I forget who) to point out that werewolf gravedigger is in the role list. I’m disappointed in town (but mainly myself) for not noticing sooner. We should be playing sharper.

literally just started rereading

this happened on page 2

[iamausername]

i finished rereading, and don't have any earth-shattering new revelations to offer, but i did spot further evidence that Ranny is scum that i don't think anyone has pointed out yet.

456: Ranny votes Titus for 'jesting'.
489: Ranny complains that people aren't scumreading Titus for doing a scummy thing that he himself did, and was scumread for.
(this is scummy in itself for the reaosns outlined by Primate in 490.)
492: Ranny cunningly talks his way around Primate's point: he didn't say that particular Titus post is

scummy

, he just doesn't understand why other people don't think it is.
498: he clarifies: "I am not scumreading Titus for that post.

I am scumreading Titus strictly for other reasons.

"
539:

"I didn’t even vote you [Titus] because I thought you were scum."

ok i actually didn't need to post all of that buildup, but Primate made a good point there and i wanted to remind people. anyway, Ranny can't even remember if he scumreads Titus or not. this is not a real read.

something felt off with Noraa from my reread too, might look at her iso and see if i can pin down what it is that's bothering me.

[iamausername]

*take out the me

no i want to take out the I instead

[iamausername]

i think "existing wagon" and "consensus reads" are both deeply uncharitable ways to describe players that have one vote each.

[iamausername]

Italiano, how do you feel about Primate? he seems to be missing from your readlist.

[iamausername]

I am Town Fruit Vendor. I'll visit <a townread that I hope won't be killed at night> to prove myself.

@Italiano: look at me I'm so town

can't fruit vendors be scum?

yeah, they can. mafia fruit vendor is on The List.

[iamausername]

what's the other 25%

[iamausername]

Votecount 1.12

iamausername (3) - MURDERCAT, Titus, Primate
Rannygazoo (3) - NoPowerOverMe, redcardinal, iamausername
ItalianoVD (2) - Herta, Noraa
redcardinal (2) - Rannygazoo, ItalianoVD

Not voting (3) - Iconeum, EchoVision, PlusJOYED

(expired on 2020-10-23 09:11:00) remain until day end

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to reach a majority.

wow, suddenly we're in a position where i hate every wagon. didn't see that coming.

shelly was my strongest townread, and Italiano inhereited that slot. redcardinal has also seemed town. and of course, the other two are mod-confirmed town.

other people i have no interest in executing today: Titus, Ico, PlusJOYED. prooobably not Murdercat either, though his predecessor did scum it up a lot in only two posts.

what happened to the Herta wagon? i liked the Herta wagon.

VOTE: Herta

[iamausername]

obviously i would vote for red before i'd vote for myself

but i really don't think she's scum. Ranny helpfully made an actual case against red in 932, so i'll address that. if there are other reasons to think she is scum, please let me know, because i'm not seeing it.

Going forward, you'll see that this is the core of red's motivation today. "Get any elim, as long as it's not me."

this requires counterexamples. i'll get to that.

idk my rolepm says town so I guess I'm in the clear

seriously though I think you're missing the point on purpose. npom is not a good slot to be throwing shade on, pick someone else

This right here is very scummy. Our goal is scum hunting, and no one is off-limits until they're confirmed mechanically. To shut down exploring someone's posts because it's the wrong slot is holding back town, period. She'll later claim that this was a joke, or it was just to antagonize me, but I don't care. It feels like she wants to rush an elim without proper discussion first. I've been accused of the same, but I never actually said anything to stop discussion. Now town is turning around its opinion on NPOM so hopefully you can see how wrongheaded this is.

this is a much more coherent point that you were making earlier. why didn't you say this earlier, instead of acting like her accusing you of deciding who to target and then finding reasons later was her explaining her own tactics?
nonetheless, i didn't think this was scummy at all when i didn't know your alignment, and knowing it doesn't change that. i see town players make this kind of "nice scum post, scum" comment at people they suspect all the time and i don't see any reason to think it's different here.
and like, if she's just interested in getting any elim, as long as it isn't her, as you say, what's the motivation to shut down your pursuit of NPOM? surely that helps her goal, no?

claiming the game is slowing down does the opposite of content generation

This is false and feels really forced. "The day is slowing down" could just be an idle comment or it could mean "pick up the discussion" depending on how you want to read it, but I don't see how it could mean "yes, slow down the discussion more". This isn't part of a real read.

i think you're just wrong here. this is not false, and it does not feel forced.

obviously, we all know now that your motivations for making that post were true, but it doesn't make it a good post.

username is a tr for me right now. lots of changing votes, I agree with him on stuff, little jncomfortable that he seems to be jumping on wagons as they form but it seems fine

This is the exact same thing red was doing. I think hypocrisy is NAI but it sure doesn't look good.

i don't think hypocrisy is NAI, and you obviously don't either or you wouldn't be using this as a point.

(i think hypocrisy is actually more likely to come from town than scum, because scum would want to avoid the suggestion that their own actions are scummy, while town will tend to be a lot less self-conscious about it.)

if ranny flips town shelly is suspicious as hell

I find this really damning. What she's doing here is trying to chain miselims. If I flip green, she'll try to hurry you along to this other elim that may turn out green too. There's just, like, a complete lack of interest in actually solving the game, all throughout her posts.

the main point here i actually agree with. that was a bad post.

"there is a lack of interest in solving the game" will, again, require counterexamples, which i'll get to.

I like murdercat's logic for voting npom would be okay doing that today

More willingness to sheep, more "get an elim today, as long as it's not me." Just no town motivation. (Note that this is the slot that she told me not to investigate earlier.)

'willingness to sheep' is absolutely not a scumtell. if someone else makes a good point, town should absolutely be willing to sheep on it. there seems to be a prevailing idea in this game that everybody needs to be generating completely original content at all times or they are scum, and it is intensely wrongheaded.

COUNTEREXAMPLE TIME

here are a few redcardinal posts that, to me, demonstrate scumhunting intent:
163: this was just after shelly started pushing the 'Herta scumclaimed' business - red agrees with shelly's push, but for her own reasons that demonstrate that she was independently scumreading Herta before shelly made the push.

235: she also has this shelly/Noraa paired read going on that i don't agree with, but definitely shows an intent to sort both of those slots

414: this one is the strongest reason to townread red, imo. she could have easily kept to her Herta vote if she didn't care who was executed, that wagon was still going strong at this point. her vote was probably the main cause of the momentum shift to Ranny, which was, with hindsight, a mistake, obviously, but does not in any way show scum intent.

i mean, she's tapered off somewhat later in the day, but i don't really have an issue with that? she obviously felt like her Ranny vote was a good vote, that wagon looked like it was headed for surefire execution, so... job done, basically. if you're town and you're happy with the direction the day is going, i think it's pretty normal to just kind of chill. that's basically it.

next i'll explain why i'm voting Herta and you should too:

154: Herta has to be prompted to give his thoughts and they are... some people have similar avatars. also "I linked to one of the games thinking that someone would accept that as an invitation to town bloc" which is a) absolutely wild that Herta thinks this will get people to townread him, and b) Herta admitting that he is motivated by trying to get people to townread him.

157: the infamous scumclaim post. i don't think it's a slam dunk the way shelly did, but sarcastically agreeing that he must be scum is certainly somewhere in the same ballpark as "you caught me for the wrong reasons".

284: this one is the real big "you caught me for the wrong reasons" post though. "Does anyone have a case other than Primate? At least that one has some oomph behind it." - no attempt to actually address any of the points in Primate's case. just an acknowledgement that it exists, and others don't, and therefore everyone else voting him is DOING IT WRONG. because there are right reasons to be voting him, like the ones Primate has.
that's the crux of the "you caught me for the wrong reasons" tell, for those who weren't clear on it - the sentence implies that there are

right

reasons to catch the person, because they are scum. and while Herta never said those exact words, his comment about Primate here comes pretty close to it.

349: this point about shelly co-opting my reasoning as her own, it is a bad point. if someone makes a point that you agree with, you don't have to rephrase it in your own words to get the grade. we're not writing essays for english class here.
feels more like Herta decided that shelly was the easiest target on his wagon than any genuine attempt to sort anyone.

390: Herta expresses suspicion of Ranny here. this is pre-Ranny wagon building up, but even after it does, Herta will continue to express suspicion of Ranny without ever putting a vote there. feels like cheering the wagon on from the sidelines without dirtying his hands by joining it.
also the "he's the only one thinking about multi-scum factions" comment on Primate is patently false and doesn't seem like a reason to townread him even if it was true.

after this, Herta just hangs around with a vote parked on shelly, not really pushing that, providing passive support to the growing Ranny wagon, and doing a whole lot of nothing until Ranny's flip.

1149: in 867, Herta says he has "no problem pushing username", in 477, redcardinal's posting is "town indicative". that's about the full extent of his thoughts on either of us prior to this, and yet he decides to vote red over me?

[iamausername]

NPOM you're still voting for confirmed town right now

any chance you want to not do that

[iamausername]

I am an Innocent Child

Rannygazoo is confirmed to be aligned with the Town!

[iamausername]

(expired on 2020-10-23 09:11:00)

please hurry.

[iamausername]

235: she also has this shelly/Noraa paired read going on that i don't agree with, but definitely shows an intent to sort both of those slots

What is this supposed to link to

ah, should be 245, sorry.

[iamausername]

1180 has such a "I'm trying to convince you to do what I want" feel.

maybe it has that feel because i am trying to convince people to vote Herta???

just a thought???

[iamausername]

"Herta admitting that he is motivated by trying to get people to townread him."

Like, what townie doesn't want to be town read??

there is an obvious difference between 'wanting to be townread' and 'trying to get people to townread you' and if you weren't blinded by tunnel vision i'm sure you would be able to see that

come on

[iamausername]

Votecount 1.13

iamausername (4) - MURDERCAT, Titus, Primate, PlusJOYED
redcardinal (3) - Rannygazoo, ItalianoVD, Herta

(expired on 2020-10-23 09:11:00) remain until day end

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to reach a majority.

This is what we are looking at with 21 hours left, if you think username is town you should be explaining it.

no this is what we are looking at

iamausername (4) - MURDERCAT, Titus, Primate, PlusJOYED
redcardinal (3) - Rannygazoo, ItalianoVD, Herta
Herta (2) - iamausername, NoPowerOverMe
ItalianoVD (1) - Noraa
PlusJOYED (1) - Iconeum

Not Voting (2) - EchoVision, redcardinal

with redcardinal having stated intent to vote Herta.

don't pretend Herta isn't a viable execution just because you disagree with it.

[iamausername]

Noraa, how are you feeling on redcardinal or Herta?

because those really are the only realistic choices here besides me.

[iamausername]

not going to pretend i don't deserve that Ranny

but my support for your wagon was by definition more active than Herta

because i actually voted for you

[iamausername]

Murdercat absolutely genuinely believes i'm scum. this doesn't necessarily mean he isn't scum himself, in this game.

Titus i think is town for general paranoia and particularly 1025, which feels extremely genuine.

Primate doesn't think i'm scum, he thinks i am a good player, so i would be good at hiding it if i was scum?? or something?? this is the first place i would look for the scum that is obviously going to be on my wagon somewhere. his vote is extremely dubious.

PlusJOYED's claim seems unlikely to come from scum, he has otherwise been a total waste of space so far.

[iamausername]

Let's pay close attention to ico tomorrow

what

[iamausername]

Ico came off extremely town to me when he actually started playing. i think NPOM is also town, or possibly lone scum?? i think it would be really difficult for group scum to completely miss Ranny's flip, and i didn't feel like that was faked.

agree that Primate and Echo could use more scrutiny tomorrow. if there's a vig, they should shoot Plus. if he's scum, great, if he's town, no great loss.

i guess that also kind of applies to NPOM, but eh.

[iamausername]

it 100% avoids killing an actual useful town PR, or an actual useful player

[iamausername]

Yeah, yeah blame it someone else. If he flips town it’s because you KNOW he’s town.

have we not talked enough about how this is probably multiball

there's no way for Murdercat to know i'm town

[iamausername]

seems like Italiano is expecting me to flip town though

[iamausername]

if i had anything useful to claim, i would have done it by now. i don't even have a cool-sounding role that doesn't actually do anything. just a VT.

[iamausername]

Feeling really bad about this wagon now but not sure we have the time to go Italiano.

for what it's worth, i'd be willing to go this way now

his posts on this page have been pinging me hard.

you're probably gonna have to save it for tomorrow tho

[iamausername]

VOTE: Italiano

you know, just in case we all added up the votes wrong somehow

[iamausername]

VOTE: Primate

i think he is mafia, specifically. of all the people voting for me, he stuck out as someone who didn't actually believe that i was scum. 1307 is incredibly wishy-washy on Italiano when that wagon was just starting to develop, and it feels to me like he just didn't know how to react to a last minute attempt to off his scumbuddy who had seemed 100% safe the day before deadline.

his comments on shelly's replacement in 989 and 993 seemed weird at the time, but in light of the flip, they look really bad to me. if Primate really believes that shelly replacing out was a towntell that shouldn't be mentioned in thread for game integrity reasons,

why is he mentioning it in the thread

? it comes across as "hey, you guys should totally think that slot is town for this, but you didn't hear it from me *wink*".

also, just now, there was this:

I don't think Titus was vigged but w/eva.

why talk about Titus specifically as the vig target? is it because you know Noraa was a scum kill?

[iamausername]

Rannygazoo*

- IC

Herta

- not mafia. his vote was pretty pivotal in turning momentum to Italiano, and he had every reason to vote for me if he wanted to. could still be werewolf or whatever, his scumminess from early D1 remains, but i'm not particularly interested in pursuing that today.

redcardinal

- 100% not mafia, and like 99% town. she was clearly invested in securing a correct execution yesterday.

Primate*

- mafia.

PlusJOYED

Wiyvern

arachnidsGrip

- who the hell knows. claimed a useless role, acts like a useless player, could be scum trying to dodge crosskills, could just be an actual useless player. an extremely valid vote.

Iconeum*

- i've liked what i've seen from him, but could certainly stand to see more.

MURDERCAT

Assemblerotws

- probtown for the same reasons as redcardinal. unlike her, he was on the wrong side, but he clearly cared, and specifically clearly cared before Italiano was even on the table.

NoPowerOverMe

- like PlusJOYED but less useless. not mafia because if he's scum, he's a werewolf gravedigger.

EchoVision

- the main thing i remember about Echo is Primate declaring him obvtown for no apparent reason, he's been super null to me. he did vote for Italiano, though. like, i know bussing exists, but i feel like not in this setup, and especially not on a wagon that grew from actual nothing in the last 24 hours of the day.

that's where i'm at rn.

[iamausername]

@username: I think your premise of "people who pushed Italiano yesterday instead of username or redcardinal are town" is flawed. Yes, it resulted in

a

correct elim (not

the

correct elim), but it also upped the odds of no elim, which benefits scum. MURDERCAT and I had to scramble to avoid that. So I'm not convinced that everyone on the beginning of that wagon is town by default.

that would be a faulty premise if that was the premise i was working from.

i am working from two main premises here:

a) scum would not care who was executed, provided it wasn't one of their own. redcardinal and Murdercat both gave convincing signs that they did care. that's what makes them town to me.

b) people who pushed Italiano yesterday are

not mafia

. not the same thing as town. the rest of the Italiano wagon besides Murder/red was Ranny, Noraa and Titus - all confirmed town - and Herta and Echo, netiher of whom i have townreads on.

[iamausername]

Jfc

VOTE: npom

yeah actually

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

i think he's a better player than he's pretending to be here.

[iamausername]

Why do this as werewolf? I fail to see the scum motivation, I just think it's annoying

i mean, he got towncred the last time he 'missed' an incredibly obvious fact about the game state

well, he did from me anyway

because i am gullible sometimes.

i expect he thought it would happen again.

and look, all he has done this entire game is try to earn towncred, for his claim, for completely failing to pay attention to basic facts about the game state, whatever. absolutely zero scumhunting.

i know that much the same can be said of plusJOYED, but it feels extremely off to me how easily that wagon got to E-1 compared to the resistance there has been to any attempt to put pressure on NPOM throughout the game. like, both of them are openly not giving a shit about the game, so why is it that only one of them is being called out for it by anyone besides the confirmed town player?

[iamausername]

Redcardinal dropping of plus in a way that looks like she was looking for any reason to.

not seeing this, i feel like there were plenty of reasonable opportunities to jump ship before this, if red wanted to. but either way, what point are you making here?

why

would she be looking for an excuse to drop the plus wagon?

otoh, i don't think redcardinal is gonna flip green so...

can you elaborate on this? i feel like this is the first time you've mentioned any suspicion of redcardinal.

I'm willing to go plus I guess, but redcardinal is pinging hard.

what changed between 1479 and this one? you certainly didn't seem willing to go plus then.

I want to hear from primate before we yeet that slot.

this i very much agree with, i know this day is kind of dragging, but i'm happy for the game to stall out for a little bit in order to get some input from that slot.

[iamausername]

True. She could have left at any time, but she kept shading me while voting plus as the plus wagon grew. Then when it peaks, she leaves. Like she couldn't make up her mind for some reason? I don't know.

yeah, i'm really struggling to see how "couldn't make up her mind" is supposed to be a scumtell. it doesn't feel like you believe in your own case here.

I mean why would she drop and join the very person she was just voting.

Spoiler:

[iamausername]

It actually purely from associations could easily be ItalianoVD-Murdercat as the mafia. I'm surprised people aren't suggesting that. I think murdercats general play is good but there's some sus stuff with IVD in there.

nah, 1260 really reads to me as Italiano setting up to go after Murdercat D2 following my town flip.

having gone back to look for that post, i noticed plusJOYED parroting pretty much the same line in 1272 which i hadn't remembered him doing. i think i've been writing off the idea that plus can be read at all because his play is so obviously anti-town that he clearly isn't trying to win, regardless of his wincon, but actually... there is (very minimal) content there, and that content is scummy.

yeah, alright. let's just get it done.

VOTE: plusJOYED

[iamausername]

massclaim today.

[iamausername]

i feel like i was explicit about that already, but yes, i am literally a Vanilla Townie.

[iamausername]

yeah, Herta is absolutely the play today, but given that Echo falls into the category of reasonably likely to be scum through PoE, i'd rather we got a claim out of him today.

[iamausername]

VOTE: Herta

NPOM, we know there are two scum factions that have night kills and those are a much higher priority than a Survivor. if you want to make a case that Primate

isn’t

a survivor, that would be another thing, but we are absolutely not executing Primate on the basis that a survivor is an enemy to the town. we have more important enemies to deal with.

[iamausername]

Like, he probably is gravedigger so obviously that's who you would have do the kill right?

yeah, and even if he isn't, his claim gives him effective immunity to trackers anyway

[iamausername]

we're all pretty much just waiting on Echo at this point. not much more to say than that.

[iamausername]

This is an open setup.

so... we can all just ask the mod if a doctor would be able to self-protect, no?

[iamausername]

again, i don't think the issue is that the doc can self protect

the issue is that i refuse to believe a mod would throw in a doc that is able to self-protect without restrictions

this setup is very much not beholden to any concept of 'balance' though

[iamausername]

anyway, i have PMd the mod to ask if a hypothetical doctor would be able to self-protect, and since this is an open setup, i see no reason why this wouldn't be answered.

i expect that if Echo was scum he would have done the same before claiming to be a doc that could self protect, but i guess maybe he thought that was standard until people started questioning it

[iamausername]

how fucking strong is an un-gated doc that's allowed self protection?

not to mention how game-throwing it is to not self-target each and every night

is a bulletproof townie really that strong though

i mean, it's not like he's vengeful too

[iamausername]

ok, now that that's established

The problem echo is that if you are scum and I die you get to say whoops sorry doc'd myself. So commit to docing me so that you die and we win the game tomorrow. Because if I die you aren't conf town tomorrow

i agree with this

[iamausername]

Echo I think you should choose whoever you want to protect then, me or you. If we are lucky it might keep us both safe.

really what he should have done was committed to protecting you in thread and then protected himself anyway

but i guess the wifom strategy is fine too

[iamausername]

I think we are 2:1:1:1 right now??

extremely doubtful.

either one of the scumteams only had one member, or Primate isn't actually a survivor. possibly both.

[iamausername]

Probably username since he most likely has a gun.

what

[iamausername]

if we're all willing to agree that NPOM is town, then the plan should probably look something like this

we execute Primate today.

Murdercat blocks me, Echo protects him. the only people who can die in that scenario are NPOM or Echo. if Echo dies, Murdercat must be scum. if NPOM dies, i am cleared, and make the deciding vote for town. no pressure.

if nobody dies, execute me. Murdercat blocks Echo. Echo protects one or the other of NPOM or himself. this could be game over if and only if Murdercat is scum and guesses correctly on who Echo is protecting.

otherwise, we go to 3p with NPOM, Murdercat, Echo, and NPOM makes the deciding vote for town. no pressure.

i mean, i think this plan just wins the game by executing the last remaining scum, Primate, but it still gives us decent odds if Murdercat or Echo are the sneaky scumbag.

[iamausername]

Murdercat blocks me, Echo protects him. the only people who can die in that scenario are NPOM or Echo. if Echo dies, Murdercat must be scum. if NPOM dies, i am cleared, and make the deciding vote for town. no pressure.

sorry, this could also result in Murdercat dead with Echo as the confirmed scum. this changes nothing else about the plan.

[iamausername]

Murdercat blocks me, Echo protects him. the only people who can die in that scenario are NPOM or Echo. if Echo dies, Murdercat must be scum. if NPOM dies, i am cleared, and make the deciding vote for town. no pressure.

sorry, this could also result in Murdercat dead with Echo as the confirmed scum. this changes nothing else about the plan.

wait, i suppose it could also end up with me dead and skip straight to the NPOM/Murdercat/Echo endgame

still changes nothing

[iamausername]

if we're all willing to agree that NPOM is town

This isn't the read I am willing to bet the game on, at least not yet

ok, well, i am. NPOM makes the kill N1, always.

[iamausername]

Murdercat blocks me, Echo protects him. the only people who can die in that scenario are NPOM or Echo. if Echo dies, Murdercat must be scum. if NPOM dies, i am cleared, and make the deciding vote for town. no pressure.

i messed this part up so much. Echo should protect

NPOM

here.

now you can swap me and Primate in all scenarios and it doesn't matter.

either town wins, we go to 3p lylo with NPOM/Murdercat/Echo, or scum!Murdercat gets lucky on a coinflip and wins.

[iamausername]

wait, don't we actually know the opposite? if last scum was werewolf, there wouldn't have been two kills on any night

which also makes me and NPOM 100% clear unless there are actually two scum left.

[iamausername]

yeah, Murdercat has this correct, and i definitely don't think he is scum. in general, he reads as town, but in particular, his reaction to Herta's claim doesn't look remotely like it would ever come from anything but a town roleblocker.

i did have a read on Primate as mafia earlier, but his play today makes me think it's probably wrong, and it's not like i have a strong town read on Echo at all. and if Primate is actually a survivor, it just seems mean to deny him the win here, there's really no need.

let's just do this.

VOTE: EchoVision

[iamausername]

What's the case on echo and why are you so concerned with Primate getting a win?

i am willing to stake the game on Murdercat being town here, because nothing about the way he reacted to Herta's claim makes any sense if he isn't.

if Murdercat is town, you are also town, barring a weird scenario where you are a werewolf who didn't make the kill N1 after claiming gravedigger, a scenario that also requires one of Echo/Primate to be scum anyway. and frankly, your extreme paranoia today makes that about as unlikely as Murdercat being scum.

so, if there is only one scum left, it is either Echo or Primate, and it doesn't matter in the slightest to town which one we execute first.

if there are two scum left, it's probably both of them, and it still doesn't matter to town which one we execute first.

so the only difference it makes is that in the scenario where Echo is the last scum and Primate is actually a survivor, Primate gets to win too if we execute Echo first.

[iamausername]

for Murdercat to be mafia, he would have to see that Herta, whose alignment he doesn't know, claimed roleblocker, and within the space of ten minutes, decide to immediately vote Herta as if he 100% knew the claim was a lie, then PM the mod to check if roles could be doubled up, then claim roleblocker himself after confirming that they can

when Herta was already pretty high on most people's scumlists, so it's not like he would need to counter claim to get him executed

[iamausername]

echo, you're going to need to put forth a plausible theory for who the remaining scum actually are and not just point out that it's hypothetically possible for there to be two of them

good luck

[iamausername]

it’s not hypothetically possible, it’s actually very likely

ok, who are they

[iamausername]

NPOM, go back and look at Murdercat's reaction to Herta's claim in 1707 and tell me how it ever comes from scum

[iamausername]

ok, so did they already know that roles can be doubled up? and they asked the mod to support their planned fakeclaim, and the mod went along with it?

[iamausername]

or they didn't know, and they decided to find out in the game thread, in the middle of their fakeclaim

[iamausername]

"we know there's another scum faction out there that could kill either one of us, but let's both claim the same role to guarantee that one of us gets executed today, unless it's possible for roles to double up in this setup, i don't know, is it? let's not check before we go ahead with this plan"

[iamausername]

"it'll make me look super town, hopefully the one person who hasn't claimed already is a doctor who can protect me from the mafia kill!"

[iamausername]

the perfect crime

[iamausername]

Lol I mean yeah and also I'm probably not scum with you for trying to elim you all of D1

it's called bussing, murdercat

[iamausername]

I'm glad we got primate over the finish line with us

best part is it might not have happened without his 'slip' of 'knowing' the last scum was werewolf.

that's what got me to realise that the last scum couldn't possibly be werewolf, and that's when me and NPOM became completely clear.