Mini Theme 2222: Open Draft Mafia [Game Over]

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VOTE: flea

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Hi

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Dunn is town btw

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Dunn is town btw

no kidding only Mason's are always town. Neighbors could be either or so you won't get town cred. For that

Nothing prevents scum from randing and picking a mason

[Infinity 324]

Dunn is town btw

no kidding only Mason's are always town. Neighbors could be either or so you won't get town cred. For that

Nothing prevents scum from randing and picking a mason

Would they get added to the mason chat? That kind of defeats the purpose of a mason if so

I'm assuming not

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Actually, I might not be right

Murder, are scum allowed to select a mason from their pack?

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Cyrus if you wanna stop being snarky it'd be nice to talk about your read

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Cyrus if you wanna stop being snarky it'd be nice to talk about your read

i find this funny snarky is a 1st . If you haven't figured it out I don't have a read . I have a lean. Reads come later.

What in my posts give you the impression that I'm intentionally trying to confuse town rather than trying to figure things out

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this sounds like your trying to set up mis elemations after d1

?? I literally said dunn was town.

My point is that scum!dunn could take a mason to take it away from town, but he wouldn't claim it in thread. I'll admit to being cagey about it though.

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You have early town cred for claiming the card right off.

By passing it off to another player, that player can become confirmed town by actually using it, and it would lock town you (barring shenanigans) by enabling it.

... I think. I'm new to this kind of game, correct me if I'm wrong.

I like this

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How is that different from me taking it now and then somebody else taking it later? Doesn't that activate the masons?

I was thinking the other person doesn't even claim and I tell you guys if a mason appears so they can claim it later

If you take it, we have 2 conftowns, if you pass it, we have 2 conftowns and a towny player in you. It would be a hell of a gambit for scum!you to claim to be taking a mason like you just did.

The other benefit is that scum won't know who the masons are

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Can anybody read? The MAFIA decides how the packs move. I dunno why cyrus would reveal he has a Doctor shot, or how House thinks Dunn can pass his card to someone else (unless he thinks/knows Dunn is Scum)

This doesn't give scum viable counterplay, if the scum move dunn's pack to them and the masonry doesn't form, then whoever has dunn's pack is outed.

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Notably, there aren't necessarily 2 masons, but it still seems like a dumb risk for scum to take.

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Notably, there aren't necessarily 2 masons, but it still seems like a dumb risk for scum to take.

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Infinity I need to know why Dunn is town and is it largely based off mechanics that I still need to read for comprehension?

Well if dunn is scum and a townie picks mason, he's outed as scum because the masonry won't form.

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Something about infinity's mech talk in pinging me as townie here but also do you have more reads than the Dunn one?

I guess I had a scumlean on cyrus but I need to engage there. It might just be that I was annoyed with him. I like taly for town though, his posts have felt more manufactured when I played with scum!him.

PEdit: I was the first one to bring it up? And taly asked me specifically about it?? What are you on about

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Fabricated a read on a naked RVS votw.

Mastina does this

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Dunn is town btw

Dunn is town btw

no kidding only Mason's are always town. Neighbors could be either or so you won't get town cred. For that

Nothing prevents scum from randing and picking a mason

Dunn being town because he wouldn't pick mason as scum was my implication here. It's not like a big revelation or anything, but to act like I'm copying you is ???

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then you said this basically aiming to discredit dun . You can't have it both ways.

Where are you getting that I'm discrediting dunn? Everywhere else in the thread I called him town.

My point was that dunn is town not because scum can't pick mason, but because they wouldn't or they wouldn't claim it.

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Dude the reason I said dunn was town originally is for that exact reason and I only repeated it because you said it was obvious (which it wasn't really since you didn't understand the mechanics) and then again cause taly asked

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No silly you didn't realize that scum can pick masons

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This does feel like it's getting petty, I'm still kind of annoying you keep saying I'm scum for "copying" an idea that I thought of first. We can move on, I'm curious how you plan to sort me going forward and see if your scumlean is correct or we can just stop I'd be fine with that too.

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I don't know what that means and I don't want to, don't claim your cards

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*thumbs up*

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Alternatively, if we have two people claim to have mason in their pack come tomorrow, we can leash both people with packs to choose mason on N2 specifically.

Hmm. Scum can avoid giving dunn's pack to themselves, meaning this only actually benefits us if the other mason gets into scum's hands n2. If both are town, it's an outed masonry instead of a non-outed masonry, which isn't the end of the world but is a downside.

House may have been wrong but I still kinda like his idea too.

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First of all, scum who knows their partner has the other mason role could easily take both mason roles and only claim one N1 as a grab for towncred. Second, we only have ~60% odds that the second mason role exists and I think that's a gamble scumDunn would be willing to take.

This seems like a bad deal to me. If dunn's buddies don't have the mason, it's slightly less than 60%, but 50% chance or so that you get guiltied is awful, even more so for a strong scum player.
Hoping that other townies would clear you and let you pass the mason seems like a bad thing to rely on too. If dunn's buddy does have the mason, they have to take it too based on dunn's plan, so then he's locked in to claiming masons with his partner. And there could be a third mason right? Seems like terrible play all around

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(if they only take 1 mason then whoever gets passed the mason knows that the person who passed it to them didn't follow dunn's plan)

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I mean... Assuming Dunn scum AND only one mason card in the scumteam AND a successful NK, the odds that town has a mason D2 are either 40/89 or 45/89 depending on whether we mislim or hit scum today. It's a high risk play, sure, but not one I think that would be beyond Dunn choosing to do. I'd definitely consider it, depending on the content of the scum packs.

The upside seems nowhere near worth it to me especially since people wonder why you're still alive at the end of the game. Dunn is good enough to survive until lategame anyway.

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Fabricated a read on a naked RVS votw.

Mastina does this

As town or as scum?

As town at least

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T3 is towny I think

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Who's monkey

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ND was a nothing the last time I played with scum!him so it looks good for him so far

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VOTE: A50 I have a lot of townreads. I'm gonna vote someone who's not

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see efforts to appear as town--but looking at them I don't actually see town.

I actually see no efforts to appear town, which is actually part of why I find him towny. He gives me similar vibes to where I played with town!him before, and said that the less he explains himself the more likely he is to be town.

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Yes.

You don't have a response to mastina or?

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Ok

Do you have a response to mastina?

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VOTE: t3

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VOTE: House

Push feels opportunistic.

What do you think about my approach here vs house's, I assume you don't also scumread me for voting t3?

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Not because of you, I thought t3's response felt evasive and I think town would at least have a reason why mastina's early reads post this time was different from her post in townstumps.

I can't explain why I townread him better than I did in 169.

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You look like you're trying to actually figure out T3's motivations

Really? I don't think I gave any indication of that

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So, there's someone here who is going "You do this thing as town and I think it's scummy" at worst.

For one, I'm not sure I've seen a townie push someone using this reasonably, so you haven't really gotten to a reasonable towny explanation for T3's behavior imo. The scummiest part to me, though, is how t3 reacted to being called out. First he avoided responding, then he avoided responding again, then he said he "didn't realize it was RVS" when it clearly wasn't. It just feels like the type of response a newer scum player would come up with when they messed up.

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I will overlook the part that I didn't know I've played with you before.

I'll forgive you, you only made a couple posts before you replaced out

(Game was bending, a mini normal)

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Ehh ok I think you're town anyway

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I think flea was joking (ftfy stands for fixed that for you) and was not trying to intentionally misrep your post. You're allowed to do that but if you try to do that to misrep someone it's pretty easy to verify.

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Come on fae used the tongue sticking out emoji fae was not being serious

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For me, I'd think t3 would at least address the fact that his same logic was wrong last time if town.

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VOTE: a50

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Even if that's a joke it's still scummy imo.

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It would mean he's paying attention to the game but not contributing. It would be a cheeky WIFOM "would scum do this?" play. Partly a personality read on A50.

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Voting people when they act scummy?

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Voting people when they act scummy?

Calling A50 scummy for that post is akin to calling Firepup scummy when he says yes after somebody asks him if he rolled scum.

Early game fuckery is not scum indicative.

Ok, didn't realize that was mostly directed at t3, still disagree here but yeah I'd like t3 to respond why he didn't vote immediately.

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There was zero justification for either of your votes outside of a zero-level "gotcha" reason which could be natural coming from someone whose first post after seeing it contains a vote, but not after they've had several minutes to actually brain it out.

I mean I did give some reasoning

It would mean he's paying attention to the game but not contributing. It would be a cheeky WIFOM "would scum do this?" play. Partly a personality read on A50.

@flea I hope you're doing ok

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What make you think that he's paying attention to the game, as opposed to his own interactions?

I ask because it's a lot easier to check up on a reply to your own posts than it is to figure out what kind of action is happening between third parties.

He can still pay attention to his own interactions and get useful content/reads from them...

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Does T3 bus his partners or locks them out of a townbloc so early? Otherwise, T3 with any variation of {Bingle, Dunn, Dw} is the only possible scum partner(s) or team I could surmise with this slot.

How about flea, ndmath, or mom?

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Fair enough, I feel like you're making a lot of assumptions about scum bussing/distancing/not including each other in townblocs that might not be accurate. Scum bus a lot when you wouldn't expect them to and when it's not optimal to do so. I don't think scum!T3 would have fucked himself for lategame.

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@taly

So, there's someone here who is going "You do this thing as town and I think it's scummy" at worst.

For one, I'm not sure I've seen a townie push someone using this reasonably, so you haven't really gotten to a reasonable towny explanation for T3's behavior imo. The scummiest part to me, though, is how t3 reacted to being called out. First he avoided responding, then he avoided responding again, then he said he "didn't realize it was RVS" when it clearly wasn't. It just feels like the type of response a newer scum player would come up with when they messed up.

I'm not really confident that a50 is the best d1 lim, but showing that you're paying some attention to the game and not posting relevant content is a bad look, especially when you don't come back later and either respond to the reactions to your post or...do anything. I think the slot deserves pressure.

Hi norwee

I'm kind of coming around to the idea that house could be scum but it's more of a deepwolf thing, I'm not sure if I could vote him today.

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I think house would have to be pretty good at scum to be scum here, and the only reasoning I can find for scumreading him is vague gut pings.

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I think house would have to be pretty good at scum to be scum here

(Which reduces the chance that he's scum, because it's possible he's just not that good at the alignment.)

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Hey most of my scumgames are pretty good

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His push on t3 is pretty well reasoned and on surface level it seems like he believes it.

If he's usually really scummy as town he's probably scum here

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So why are you voting A50?

His last post looked like it was meant for the scum pt, and I don't necessarily think it was a slip but it at least shows that he was paying attention to the game but not contributing content. And that was a couple days ago.

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That he is just ignoring the thread since doing it is certainly not good™ fmpov.

How do you know he's ignoring it?

The point is that he posted in this thread showing that he'd at least read some things but didn't post any content at all. If that's not ignoring the game idk what is.

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Flea is a floofball as fae likes to say (as both alignments)

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That post doesn't give me great vibes

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I think taly is obvtown this game tbh

Norwee too kinda lol

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Have you played with Norwee before???

Yes

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Can you talk to me about my Taly read? I want to know if i could be wrong as my suspicion there is not to the same level as the one i have on Mastina right now.

When I played with scum!taly he was much more observational. His thoughts looked real but there wasn't much of a sorting process and he didn't incorporate gut. The whole thing feels super genuine to me

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"I should vote this but I have no idea why or even why he's doing it". You know what I mean??

I'm pretty sure I gave a concrete reason why I voted you, I thought it was a joke but you wouldn't have made it without posting content as town.

I actually lean town on you now, I didn't think about the fact that disappearing could be part of the reaction test, and the risk for scum to do that intentionally doesn't seem worth it

UNVOTE:

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Of all the players here Infinity should be the most qualified to read me imo.

This seems wrong, I only have one completed game with you. Honestly it bothers me that you're saying this.

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I'm not counting haunted village.

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For everyone else: I soulread norwee as town in divide and conquer, and not many other players were townreading him there. I think I've correctly townread him in at least one game I've spectated of his, but that's it. He looks very town to me here, but my read on him isn't to the same level it was in divide and conquer, and honestly mastina is making me doubt my read a bit. I might look at a couple of his scumgames because I was under the impression his scumgame was a lot less active/content-focused than this.

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Mechanically speaking, I should be executed today. I was hoping more people would fall for it (and was really disappointed not enough did). I had even prepared a "final speech" for when I personally self-hammer:

Oh, I believe this, which means we absolutely shouldn't eliminate you. Free conftown is pretty cool

@norwee No, I don't know why you said I would be the most qualified to read you

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I don't think I've ever correctly gotten someone's alignment by looking into meta instead of intent.

I'm amazed at how people can determine intent without meta, to me if you don't know someone's personality and how they play mafia it's very hard to contextualize their posts.

It seemed in-character for A50 to believe that he should be eliminated based on...some conspiracy theories I came up with in the past, but I townread him for a conspiracy theory in c9++ so now I'm starting to doubt myself

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He doesn't have to explain his townread on you because its so easy.

His townread on me is based on ongoing games I believe, and I think it's towny if anything. Fwiw.

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VOTE: house

It's time to pursue this I think

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Flea's ISO has been almost completely fluff. In itself, fluff isn't scummy but 20 pages in the game fluff definitely is. The only thing that gives me pause on Flea is that they offered to take all the scum roles and said they wouldn't survive to ELO but that point is moot because Flea did it last game. This means they could easily fake it. Looking at Flea's meta this reminds me of electoral college mafia. Flea was acccused of fluffing many times. They were eventually considered mechanics cleared by the whole game and won a scum win in ELO. This game hs been much slower paced than many games and Flea is doing nothing to stop that.

This is NAI for flea

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Norwee why didn't you engage with my reasoning for taly!town

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Yes

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I'm not 100%, but it's a pretty strong townread.

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I haven't seen her scumgame in a long time, but I think it would show less drive than she has here.

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Infnfnty hasn't been scum hunting but seems to be town hunting

Yeah I think this is a much better strategy

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Poe. Dw,taly nor, t3 and infinity. Show me why It I have should change a50 has shown me more faith so has house and bingel and dun. Heck even mistina has shown more.

I'm not really sure what you're asking me to do, and honestly it's not that big of deal if you scumread me right now. I'd hope that you'd get to a townread on me eventually, but atm I don't think there's too much I can do to "show" you I'm town.

PEdit: I don't think scum townhunts more often that town does, in fact I'd say in general they townhunt less.

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Though tbh I don't think it's fair to say I haven't looked for scum, I've pushed t3, a50, and house

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I was the first person to vote a50

I think you have weird/unreasonable expectations for what town should do

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I guess there was an a50 wagon earlier but still

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Though tbh I don't think it's fair to say I haven't looked for scum, I've pushed t3, a50, and house

I wouldn't call a flaccid, unexplained vote with no questioning or accusations much of a push.

Do you scumread me?

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Not particularly. I just have zero respect for calling what you did to me a "push".

I'm not sure what the purpose of your post was then, if not to try and show you're not scared of me. Cyrus said I'm not trying to find scum, my point was that it's pretty clear I am, and you're not really disputing that, so I'm not really sure what you were trying to do.

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I still am strongly against claiming packs. It gives scum a lot of help since they can choose which pack they want to eliminate from the game by forcing that pack to be passed to the NK target. If they want they can also pass it to themselves to take a strong role away from town.

If anything would help you get more into the game let me know

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I am not claiming packs, I will be claiming any town neg-evs I draw, and all actions I take.

The only problem I see with this is that if you have a repeatable action then scum can know to kill you. When I played this setup as scum, I did feel like it would've been harder if town massclaimed their actions, but there were no repeatable actions in that setup.

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God that was awful lol

Tbh I'd be ok with you taking scum roles and not claiming them, but meh

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Actually, I am.

You're calling a barely noticable vote a push, which means you're either unaware that I'm not feeling pushed by it, or exaggerating your participation.

I'm here saying if you're going to call what you did a push, fucking push me.

I'm not really interested in arguing semantics. I voted you and gave my feelings around the vote, which should be all that's required for "trying to find scum". Again, I don't see a town-motivated perspective from you here. Obviously if you're town, me pushing you harder doesn't help anyone, so again, what was the point of your comment?

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Infinity feels less on town than she did in DNC. I can’t remember if she was in the DNC where I was scum or town though. Norwee, thoughts?

You were town in that DnC, also the difference is probably because I have less energy for mafia at the moment or because the playerlist is different.

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Penguins are a group of aquatic flightless birds. They live almost exclusively in the Southern Hemisphere, with only one species, the Galápagos penguin, found north of the Equator. Highly adapted for life in the water, penguins have countershaded dark and white plumage and flippers for swimming.

Generally when you say something factual, there's a purpose behind saying it. Whether it's to judge a reaction, or try to find scum, or just clarify something. You still haven't given me a town motivation for your post, and there are a couple scum motivations that stick out: 1. You wanted to look town by showing how unbothered you were by my vote, 2. You wanted to start an engagement with me so you could form a natural-looking progression towards a scumread.

@taly Thoughts on this? Other can answer too

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Though tbh I don't think it's fair to say I haven't looked for scum, I've pushed t3, a50, and house

I wouldn't call a flaccid, unexplained vote with no questioning or accusations much of a push.

This is the post in question for others

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Generally when you say something factual, there's a purpose behind saying it.

That purpose was correcting your inaccuracy.

Kinda what I do.

:roll:

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Someone remind me why we're making house answer every question three times.

Huh? House didn't answer my question the first two times.

I don't have a read on flea.

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This really confuses me.
So it seems like in your push against House you’re asking them to show more town motivation, but you’re not really explaining what this supposed town motivation that has been lacking from House’s posts is. Which makes me sorta indifferent to your push there. What is House doing here that he wouldn’t as town in response to being pushed??

The response to being pushed isn't really the problem, I felt like 640 had a pretty reasonable scum motivation (trying to look unbothered by my vote) but no town motivation that I could see. His response, I guess, is that he was just being frustratingly pedantic, which I do actually think could be reasonable after thinking about it more. But that was the idea behind my push.

UNVOTE:

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Dwlee you're too reasonable I'm scared

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I think I townread t3 at this point

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I've literally never been unreasonable before I don't see what you mean.

I don't think you were unreasonable ever per se but it's harder to see your personal biases/strong opinions influencing your play like in c9++

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A50 could be scum, I feel like it's mostly a matter of the people who know a50 best and mastina/bingle think he's town so.

I feel similar about norwee tbh. I feel like at this point in the day I'm ok just limming anyone outside of my townreads because I don't think I'm gonna get a good scumread.

Do you townread norwee?

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Townreads: mastina, dunn, cyrus, NDMath, taly, T3 somewhat

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Feels different, it’s strange for Mastina to start their early game with such an strong tunnel on a slot.

I'm pretty sure I've seen her do this a couple times

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@norwee Mastina has done that before too as town, yeah she could still be scum but

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So, why is Dunn Town here (aside from the Mason shot claim)??

He isn't. He's town because of the mason shot claim

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I don't think it's helpful to give scum any info about what's in our packs

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All these wagons are meh to bad

VOTE: dwlee

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I'm gonna take a look a norwee's scum games. I was under the impression he just does nothing as scum.

If his scum game is at all comparable to his play here, I could be ok voting him. He still feels quite towny to me but mastina is very town and very confident, I have a lot of townreads I feel comfortable with, and this game is gonna go nowhere otherwise.

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Mastina can you give a summary of how you feel norwee tends to play as town and how he's playing here?

For me, it's basically: he tends to act as a spectator and gives his thoughts as the game goes along, showing his solving process along the way. He doesn't say everything that he's thinking but you get the impression he's thinking behind the scenes.

Here he seems to be playing pretty similarly to me, although the spectator narrative isn't really the same because he's being pushed. Still, the part about not laying out his whole thought process is definitely there.

Is there something I'm missing here?

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All these wagons are meh to bad

Regardless of the alignment of the wagoned individuals, this post in response to the wagons was bad.

Is there another way of approaching this you think would be more productive?

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Mastina can you give a summary of how you feel norwee tends to play as town and how he's playing here?

For me, it's basically: he tends to act as a spectator and gives his thoughts as the game goes along, showing his solving process along the way. He doesn't say everything that he's thinking but you get the impression he's thinking behind the scenes.

I mean, yes--that's exactly the sort of description of his towngame that I would give.

But this?

This isn't that at all. He's

not

acting as a spectator giving thoughts as the game goes along, his 'solving process' is not being shown in the way it shines through as town (there's not nearly the same level of trajectory involved), he's saying basically everything upfront with almost nothing being behind the scenes. Beyond his paltry attempts at mimicking this very very poorly/badly in his entrance which immediately screamed "fake".

You literally described his towngame, but attribute it to this game when it is entirely absent.

It's possible I'm viewing it through a very biased lens given that I thought him giving a townread on me right at the start of the game was towny because [redacted] and also because I expected him to do absolutely nothing as scum which I still need to check on.

I still feel like you're way exaggerating the differences between this game and a normal towngame of his but whatever

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Talking to each member of the wagons you dislike, talking to each of them about why you don't like the wagon they're on, asking for discussion, engaging them, talking to them about their points and positions and proposing to them something which works with their established positions/logic but is compatible with your own stances, and creating cases against the players you want to vote rather than a naked vanity vote on a slot most people are townreading that will do nothing to get anyone to swap wagons.

This isn't really a role I can take on in mafia games, because I don't articulate my logic very well and I approach games from a very different mafia theory angle than most. I am making an effort to engage you on the norwee wagon, but I feel like I've articulated my reasons to the best of my ability everywhere else, but people aren't really interested. So I'm sort of at a loss for how to go forward. Saying "nah I'm not really feeling it" over and over is not really going to help move things forward, but when people are content to park their vote on what I see as bad wagons and not really sort past that, it's hard to me to get my own reads.

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Norwee's scumgame kinda looks like his towngame tbh, except less

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Norwee do you want to help me start a wagon?

Mastina and taly are off the table though.

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Well I have my townreads that I don't want to elim but besides that no

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I'm a sucker for town cases, also the way he's playing feels like bored town trying to find a productive angle.

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I want to flip a50, dwlee, flea, or house, since I have various shades of townreads on everyone else.

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The other option is that I vote you.

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I'm a sucker for town cases, also the way he's playing feels like bored town trying to find a productive angle.

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Damned if you do, damned if you don't I guess

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I think it's possible, dwlee's argument made some sense to me and it's very unlikely town would actually take him up on it.

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I haven't seen town do it

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Well, i have.

Ok, I still think this is a pretty unique scenario because there are a lot of people who know a50 in this game and think he might make a play like that as town. As scum, there's disagreement, but from what I know of him it doesn't seem out of the question

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Why is scum!norwee not using me as a liferaft here?

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Imo it's pretty clear that t3 is bored and wants the game to be more active.

As scum most people would just check out or do a LAMIST readslist or something in that situation. Though maybe the towncase falls into this category?

In general it feels like he wants activity and reads and stuff.

I don't really know why scum!t3 would be smug here.

PEdit: I guess

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Not to mention, being bored means you have no interest in solving. You just want to get a townflip and call it a day.
What makes T3 not just bored scum that’s uninterested in the game because only town is being wagoned and he’s bored of waiting for an flip?

Idk, I don't see bored scum poking at things like his a50 read ("to meta or not to meta"), it feels much more like something he thought of naturally rather than something he thought would make him look towny. Also scum are somewhat likely to conceal their real feelings about the gamestate especially if it comes from informed knowledge.

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I've given explanations for most of my townreads, is there a specific one you're curious about?

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I've given explanations for most of my townreads, is there a specific one you're curious about?

Actually I'm wanting to poke your PoE more, is there any particular order of eliminations you want to see?

You're low on the list because of mastina's townread.

House is maybe? High on the list cause I gut scumread him at one point.

I can't get the a50 gambit out of my head, I guess he's high on the list

Dwlee is low on the list cause weak vibes

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Bingle and NDMath are also on the edge of the PoE

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Ah no low on the list means more towny, high on the list means less towny

Somehow the way dwlee approached their t3 read and the self meta felt towny to me

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I dislike how infinity is trying to set up wagons.

Infinity looks like town to me

Who is scummy besides mastina

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Sure, the behavior in response to that perception of the gamestate is what I think is towny.

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I didn't see that, I'll check on it tonight

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Jesus Christ don't claim roles now scum can roleblock you and give you a fake guilty

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mod said only 65 roles are in play 13 x 5 = 65 and when I look at the wiki it said 1 rb you realize scum infinity would have realized I stated I had a investigated role more then once . But shouted out the role blocker after I said I was going check them to try and set up a chance to say a fake guilty.

Dude you didn't specify what your investigative did, most investigatives don't give you a fake guilty when you get RBed

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I mean everyone was like a50 is helping town with that play

I never fucking said that

Check me all you want, just don't claim your cards. Not that hard

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Fair enough

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I trust you to make the best decision on your own and not give info to scum

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I'm usually close to UTR as scum d1

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Ehh a50 feels towny

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@flea Don't skirt the line

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Why do I have to be super passionate and motivated to be town, is this a job interview or something

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I don't think it's particularly a secret that I townread norwee on play, the only reason I would vote him is to advance the game. But now the wagon is gone so I don't even think that would be productive.

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You know, that person she's willing to vote and explicitly not townreading.

I'm gonna take a look a norwee's scum games. I was under the impression he just does nothing as scum.

If his scum game is at all comparable to his play here, I could be ok voting him.

He still feels quite towny to me

but mastina is very town and very confident, I have a lot of townreads I feel comfortable with, and this game is gonna go nowhere otherwise.

??

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I think taly is obvtown this game tbh

Norwee too kinda lol

For everyone else: I soulread norwee as town in divide and conquer, and not many other players were townreading him there. I think I've correctly townread him in at least one game I've spectated of his, but that's it. He looks very town to me here, but my read on him isn't to the same level it was in divide and conquer, and honestly mastina is making me doubt my read a bit. I might look at a couple of his scumgames because I was under the impression his scumgame was a lot less active/content-focused than this.

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@bingle My feelings around the slot never changed though? I'm not sure why I left him off my townreads list, but I'm not sure why you're acting baffled that I wouldn't want to elim someone who I expressed at multiple points I felt was town.

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Dunn do you have scumreads (besides mastina)

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I'm not expressing a scumread on A50 in that post, in fact I implied a townread.

Part of what's complicating my reads here is that I have too many townreads, especially for d1, so I expressed willingness to vote norwee. I'd describe norwee as a weaker townread.

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Your first point is really nitpicky

What is the evidence that I'm wrong on norwee? The meta didn't really affect my read, it just confused me. He's playing somewhat different from both his towngame and his scumgame.

I'm still willing to vote him, I just don't really see a reason to because people don't seem ready to end the day, and if a better option pops up I'd prefer that. I'm not defending him because the reasoning for my reads convinces others rarely enough that it isn't worth it to try. The only way I feel obligated to interact with the wagon is to give my read on it and state whether or not I'm willing to vote there, which I believe I've done.

Also, uh, if I wanted to be the off the norwee elimination as scum, I'd be pretty clear about my townread and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

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VOTE: norwee sorry dude

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VOTE: flea

Don't love this either but ok

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Taly slot is still town

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I think you should start taking the game seriously

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Tbh a50's play around wanting to be limmed does feel a bit weird, almost like he just remembered that was something he should be pretending to think about. Though his actual content has been towny, what little of it there's been anyway.

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Now I'm trying to think of a setup where that would actually work

It wouldn't work with the normal town wincon so idk

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Titus what are your thoughts on norwee

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Lol see infinity doesn't want to see a flea flip.

What even

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Am I too lazy? Is that what it is?

Idk what you want from me dude

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House, dwlee, maybe a50, maybe norwee, same as before fae flipped. I don't even particularly think fae has a much better than random shot of flipping sc it's just there aren't really better options.

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Can people start doing stuff

Bingle asked everyone a question maybe if people gave opinions on that something productive would happen

Titus I think it would help if you read a little more before deadline

Idk what are people's reads on dwlee is mastina right that they're a UTR, I haven't felt that way

PEdit: Titus is scum too?

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Bingle caring about how people respond to his push on me is +town

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I understand you believe you are playing to your wincon but it doesn't mean I can't wish you would just stop posting

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Maybe if you actually gave reasoning or brought up quotes and explained why scum play in that game is likely to generalize or put in some level of effort to make yourself comprehensible then people would actually give a shit. Seriously, do that. We need something to wake this game up

PEdit: I'm sure you're a great person and the amount of posting isn't really my problem so much as the percent of it which contains a statement that I am scum and absolutely nothing I can engage with.

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Why is that scummy?

[Infinity 324]

No I don't know they are town that's why I'm figuring it out as they post. That question applies just as easily to people looking for scummy behavior first. Are you more informed than everyone else because you have scumreads?

I think townhunting is one of the best strategies you can use to find scum and I pretty consistently do it across games. But you shouldn't need meta to know it's not scummy.

[Infinity 324]

I think taly is obvtown this game tbh

Norwee too kinda lol

On reading some of infinity's iso I'm not understanding how she went from this to "but I would lim there"

It was partly the conversation I had with mastina and partly realizing I'm wrong that he just does nothing as scum and partly the fact I have too many townreads

[Infinity 324]

As someone who doesn't look at votes that much to scumhunt I don't get why t3 is scummy

[Infinity 324]

That seems consistent with restless/bored town though

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I'm ok with that for now, he does feel like he's genuinely trying to sort t3.

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Math could be scum I guess

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That last post was kind of lukewarm

My reasons for townreading him were pretty weak and only good enough for an early read

I have too many townreads

He responded "weird" to an early townread of him which is a developing scumtell of mine which I just remembered that he did

Mostly the second and third ones

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VOTE: house

1 down 2 to go

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I have a guilty (disloyal checker)

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We should still resolve math's result as well just in case scum kill him and make us confused but yeah

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Is there a reason for scum to lie that there's a commute in their pack that I'm missing?

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Yeah but

Why say that he has a commute in his pack

When he doesn't

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Yeah titus being scum here makes the least sense to me. The only thing I can think is that bingle is scum because he would do a silly -EV gambit. Math doesn't strike me as the type to even think about something like that.

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NDMATH has no reason to lie (unless some off the wall scum with Bingle). I have no reason to lie.

My point is that no one has a reason to lie right? Like wouldn't bingle have to pass to a teammate to avoid getting caught? And the teammate would then claim commute when they didn't have one and could easily get caught lying themself?

This whole thing makes no sense

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Ok but again, why lie

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I'm sorry if I'm being an idiot but

If he took a 1-shot activated ascetic

Why not say that he took a 1-shot activated ascetic

What is the benefit to saying he took a commuter instead??

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First, taking ascetic over commuter indicates he's not afraid of a nightkill.

This makes sense

[Infinity 324]

A bit of a useless question since someone did this if there is in fact a maximum of 3 commutes possible--with 4 claimed, that means someone did. The question of "why say they have a commute when they don't" can be asked of all 3 claims, and the answer is baffling regardless of which is the liar, but if our collective understanding of the mechanics is correct, there is in fact a liar.

Sure, but if there is an explanation it might help us think about who would be the most likely to lie.

Turns out there is (bingle not wanting to admit he took an ascetic) but it's not that satisfying to me because I'm still wondering why he wouldn't just take the commuter.

[Infinity 324]

Ooh fun WIFOM

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I had none either

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I had a n2 tracker and a 2-shot doctor

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I don't fake guilties as town

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VOTE: NDMath I guess

It's possible bingle did a silly gambit as scum, but it seems like it doesn't benefit scum!him at all? Since he's taking a commute either way

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Titus is 100% town too and I like bingle pointing that out

Mastina is still 100% town and even disregarding her shooting role I'm not sure why she was investigated

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Dwlee has done nothing concrete to make me think they're town but I'm getting townvibes from them, since I chose to investigate house over them. The investigation and reaction to mastina's claim feels pretty genuine too

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That last post [1501] was kind of lukewarm

My reasons for townreading him were pretty weak and only good enough for an early read

I have too many townreads

He responded "weird" to an early townread of him which is a developing scumtell of mine which I just remembered that he did

Mostly the second and third ones

This is what I got

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I'll think about it™

Yeah I mean I don't expect to be convincing but I do think there are a lot of objectively and subjectively towny people in the game

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Bingle can you correct me when I say stupid shit/make stupid votes

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Oh I saw the Titus claim but I didn't give it much weight for whatever reason.

UNVOTE:

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Ranks this low because I'm not

What was the end of this meant to be

Bingle's reads are pretty good

[Infinity 324]

Oh I also thought I said you townread mastina but I said you townread Titus, which was correct.

I'm sort of baffled that you're not townreading mastina though.

VOTE: norwee

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Is there anything more to that than "she took a role that benefits scum"? Because I'm really not sold on that, and her play including most recently the reaction to dwlee's claim has been incredibly town.

[Infinity 324]

given public information in the thread at the time

?

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Fair points

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Why, and what/when is 'still' referring to?

She was pretty obviously town on d1 imo, the best example of which was when she very confident explained why she can't be scum here.

Getting mad about us limming flea was really towny as well.

Most of mastina's posts are obviously town and I'm surprised not everything he agrees.

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I like this since that's how I was planning to use the card if I received it.

This feels towny to me