Mini 666 - This Could Be Mafia - MOD ABANDONED

[competentpsycho]

Ok, I am still catching up - but I will

unvote all

for now since apparently I inherited a vote on tajo and at this point am not convinced that he is scummy enough to vote while I haven't read the entire game yet. I will post more on him when I am caught up, mostly I get the hunch he has an odd playstyle, but I have seen a similar one before.

Right now my biggest suspect is Muerto. So far in my reading he has few posts and little to no original content in them. He seems to be tagging along with ideas of others and stating them almost as his own. Sketchy. Still not going to vote since I still have to read the last half of the game.

[competentpsycho]

Ok, finished FINALLY.

I have definitely seen tajo's style before. I have a feeling that tajo is an alt for a player I have played with before. Basically he played like an asshole the whole game. This entirely prevents meta-ing them since they play the same as scum and town, but he was good at scumhunting using these unusual tactics. For now, the only case I have really seen against tajo other than being an ass is that he pushed the time thing for stupid reasoning (I don't think asking for replacement is a tell either way, let alone defending yourself until you are replaced), and has padded his Muerrto case, relying much on the fact that Muerto turned on him. I am assuming much of his case in his head is the same as mine on Muerrto, but he just isn't voicing it much. He is actively scumhunting. neutral leaning town.

Muerrto didn't post very much at all until he started getting attention. He hasn't posted much content the entire game. No scumhunting that I can tell, just OMGUS. He is my number one pick for scum for low content posts and not even considering anyone but tajo, who is accusing him.

Voodoo lurked alot, with little contribution. Same boat as Muerrto but he is being replaced so may have just lost interest in the game, Muerrto is lurking while posting. Neutral til the replacement gets here.

Falcone seems town to me. Scumhunts vigilantly, and makes logical arguments. Same with Vivian, though she needs to contribute a little more often.

Bott doesn't talk much at all, but seems to contribute a little when he does. Neutral leaning town.

Tony - seems to be going along with the flow. Contributed a little. I will keep track of his play to see if I find any evidence of being scum, but for now he is neutral.

Grimmy - posts VERY little. Doesn't contribute or scumhunt. Doesn't really pay attention to thread before he posts, so I can see the FOS mix up and some other stuff as being a new player. Still, my number 2 pick for scum.

Shadowgirl - Logical, contributes an ok amount, scumhunts some. Haven't picked up a scummy vibe - neutral for now.

fuzzylightning - has pretty much flown under my radar. Doesn't strike me as scum or town, but seems more like a lurker. Neutral until I do an analysis of her posts isolated.

Ergo - unusually not posting much at all. Haven't known Ergo to be a lurker. Seems to be sitting back watching for scum mistakes, but lurking is lurking and you are not contributing at all. IGMEOY. - neutral leaning scum.

Choice B is retarded. Scum with a town win condition? Why the hell would you have a town win condition as scum?

He is saying scum having recieved the town win condition from the mod, not as his own win condition, but just for informational purposes, i.e. to counterbalance arguments based on win condition (basically some mods do this to keep the game on an even playing field). If this didn't happen it would be EXTREMELY easy for town to find scum using win condition.

Mod: nhat is gone, so my name should replace his in the vote count where the number of votes on him/I appear.

positive vote: Muerrto
negative vote: Jimmybot

[competentpsycho]

oops, should have used preview, battousai beat me to the clarification there.

Also, I work sometimes long hours and will probably only be able to play in the evening and during lunch for a short period and I am in Kosovo, where it is currently 9:42 PM, so I may be on on strange hours and only those hours. Friday is my day off so I may or may not be on more then.

[competentpsycho]

Yeah CP is fine, and no worries you are far from the worst with respect to not posting much. Ok, sleep for me is overdue, be back tomorrow evening.

[competentpsycho]

You've played in a game where scum got the townie PM in their PM? Really? Interesting. Because I've been in over 30 on this site alone and have never seen that.

No, not the whole PM (though the mod could give them a general vanilla one to accomplish the same, but I have never seen it), just the win condition. I think it was with a safe claim I got. This isn't very common (as far as I can tell) since most of the games I have been in they have the town win condition in the rules post of the game.

Anyway, it doesn't really matter since all of this is speculation for this game and would be possible to guess this win condition, as it is somewhat common for non-open games, though I find that move very risky unless tajo knew at least something about the win condition, which is again speculation. Therefore I am trying to avoid this whole win condition thing as proof of being town.

I find that right now both of you are locked in on the same OMGUS argument of "you're not scumhunting because you are just going after me". I would like to hear your guys' opinions on the other people in this game. Tajo said before what he thought of everyone, but it has been a while since, and this whole thing between you two could have brought more information out. Muerrto, you haven't really stated opinions on much more than tajo and time all game. I would really like to see your thoughts.

As for me, after thinking about it, Grimmy is starting to worry me more. He posts just enough no content posts to not be replaced unless there is some suspicion on him. In any case he is not being pro-town. He may change to be my number one suspect in the near future depending on how things play out.

As a side note, does anyone see any slip up tajo may have made with the post he asked to be deleted. I find it odd to post the same thing and ask for the original to be deleted just to fix some quote tags. I don't see anything else different from his second post though.

[competentpsycho]

Grim it seems like you are voting tajo strictly on his play style and OMGUSing. I wouldn't think this is enough normally, but its D1 and we have very little info to go on, so I'm not too concerned, though I think you could find better evidence than that. You're case on Tony seems somewhat better in the sense that it is your own ideas rather than regurgitated ones like on your tajo reasoning. The problem is its entirely WIFOM. So basically you are voting one guy for being an asshole, suspecting another for defending him, and not liking a third for also being kind of assholish.


hmmm... my vote stays with Muerrto for now, but its getting close. I'm thinking both he and Grim are probably scum.

[competentpsycho]

-one of the main reasons he wants to vote for muertto (but suspiciously waits a long time before doing so) is that muertto agreed with him at first, then disagreed later

people keep stating this as if its a fact. Can you read his mind? I don't think he EVER stated that was his main reason. What he said was Muerrto was agreeing with him, then voted tajo for NO reason. Muerrto says tajo tried to link Ergo and Muerrto, but all tajo did was ask for a prod on Muerrto and Ergo. Don't you think that was a BIT of an overreaction? I mean especially you should find this strange since you yourself asked for a prod on an active player by mistake also, shouldn't you?

also, if a bunch of good ideas for voting for someone have been presented, is it wrong to agree with said reasons as justification for yor own vote?
or do we each need to find our own unique reasons? Would my choosing his not speaking of the english language as his first launguage be ab etter choice of reason just because noone else claimed it first?

good point. I was just stating it, since that seemed to be a theme with a couple players in the game so far, you included.

So when (not if, when) someone pairs you with tajo, dont be surprised

Yeah, I have been expecting it. But like you were getting at even with good reasoning for defending someone they will always pair you together. Sometime in every game I will have to defend someone or accuse someone else and that will always make someone mad. It's part of the game and I am not too worried about it. I would much rather people accused or defended others that just sitting like a bump on a log until someone accuses them.

[competentpsycho]

I already voted Jimmy. And Tony does seem to just pop in and out. But so do Grimmy, and Ergo.

[competentpsycho]

You don't vote someone for scum just because he's being an ass(or pissy in your words).

I agree

for defending Tajo for the same wrong reasons. You said it was weird and rare for scum to get the townie win condition, yet Tony and Tajo placed that as a viable option. That's ridiculous.

I dont understand your argument here. When did Tony or Tajo say that was a viable option? Are you making stuff up or did I just miss it? Why would they even say that as it would weaken their case as being town because of that win condition?

Also, how does Grimmy agreeing with me without me ever agreeing with anything Grimmy said in the entire game link us as scum partners? That's a bad strawman there.

I never LINKED you two or said I did. I said you were both scummy, yes, but from completely separate instances. You seem to be REALLY defensive when someone mentions your name near some one else's name in their post. I have seen no specific actions to link you two together, I just think you both are a little scummy. This kind of overblown reaction is one reason my vote is on you. You are the one strawmanning here, saying that I am trying to link you (and that tajo tried to link you/Ergo). Stop making shit up man.

Is that anything similar to you using WIFOM to saying because tajo said he's town(by 'quoting' his PM) that he's town and since I disagree I'm scum?

Here you go strawmanning again. Find the post for me that says Tony thinks you are scum because you disagree that tajo is town. If you are gonna make accusations like this, use QUOTES. Or at least a link to the post.

[competentpsycho]

Also, how does Grimmy agreeing with me without me ever agreeing with anything Grimmy said in the entire game link us as scum partners?

hmmm... my vote stays with Muerrto for now, but its getting close. I'm thinking both he and Grim are probably scum.

How does this not link us?

It links you in the sense that I said you both were scummy for your own reasons. But as you can see by the first quote you accused me of linking you for Grimmy agreeing with you. I am pretty sure making someone's argument out to be something that it is not in order to defeat it is the textbook definition of a Strawman, and a fairly good scumtell in my book.

Also,

Wheres Muerrto and Ergo?
Mod: Prod them.

How did this link you two? I have never seen anyone suspect two people of being scumpartners from being away from the thread for a while at the same time. Yes you posted right before him, but only by 2 minutes and his post was extremely long, so I can easily see how he didn't see it. Your post before that was over 1.5 days before, and seeing as how you were posting fairly often right before that, I could see it, not agree with it, but see where he was coming from.

@Batt - I think the longer we go the more information we will get, but it will also cause people to lose interest in the game. I just came in so I am not burned out on D1, but I will agree if the people that have been in this game from early on want to end the day. I would say wait until Voodoo gets replaced, but I don't know how long that is going to take.

[competentpsycho]

Oh, yeah and we still need to negative lynch Jimmybot. Almost forgot about that. Thanks for the reminder with the votecount, skitz.

[competentpsycho]

I have never seen anyone suspect two people of being scumpartners from being away from the thread for a while at the same time. Yes you posted right before him, but only by 2 minutes and his post was extremely long, so I can easily see how he didn't see it. Your post before that was over 1.5 days before, and seeing as how you were posting fairly often right before that, I could see it, not agree with it, but see where he was coming from.

My post before that was less than 24 hours before and it was over the weekend. In addition there were others that it had been longer since they posted that he didn't call out. Can you explain that?

Other than being a mistake, no. Perhaps a mistake like the <24 hours. His

post

where he asked for the prod was at Sun Sep 21, 2008 9:11 am. You had the one 2 minutes prior. The

one

before that was at Sat Sep 20, 2008 5:51 am. (times are in central us time I believe - haven't changed my forum settings from home) Now, yes I missed this one last time I looked, but this time I checked closely. That is over 24 in fact over 27. Proof

here

where you can see you actually made no posts on the site within 27 hours before. See, this goes to show you that everyone - you, me, and even populartajo included, can make mistakes.

Sooo... look who is avoiding questions now. I will post it again to make it clear that I would like an answer as would some other people I am sure:

Wheres Muerrto and Ergo?
Mod: Prod them.

How did this link you two?

I guess I could make it more clear: how did it link you other than being in the same line? He was not saying you were scum buddies, he wasn't even saying you were scummy at this point. So how did you construe this as him trying to link you, feeling sure enough he was to vote on him?

(Oh, crap I added a question... that means I am expecting two (2) answers)

Im glad someone finally reads my posts.

An advantage to joining the game late: I read that post of yours less than a week ago so this stuff was still fresh in my mind. I don't see why anyone else doesn't see this though.

[competentpsycho]

Thought I included this in the last post but guess not:

An when are you going to do that PBPA?

He never said he was going to, and I don't think you ever asked him to, let alone nicely. You just said you refuse to end the day until he does, then rudely ask him when he is going to do it. Maybe if you were a little more polite about things people might just listen to what you have to say.

[competentpsycho]

To me it seems more like it makes them lynch proof for that day. Good thing we tested it on a rock.

negative unvote

No need. All negative votes were removed after the cannot-be lynch.

I think this rule only is in effect for day 1 though.

[competentpsycho]

Note what I put in red:

The Energizer Bunny,

Positive and Negative Vote Creator

, exploded, Day 1

It is now

Day 1

.

Today, you have a special rule in place:

Positive and Negative Vote:

Each of you has 1 positive vote and 1 negative vote. Positive votes increase the number of votes by 1, while negative votes decrease it by 1. Please vote using the forms

Positive Vote

and

Negative Vote

.

So yes, I believe we can only cast negative votes D1 and therefore only lynchproof someone through negative votes on D1. The "today" made it seem like there may be other special rules coming for other days. I am not going to say we can only lynchproof someone D1 (most likely this is true though) since one of the special rules to come may make that ability possible again.

[competentpsycho]

I didn't see anything pointing to NK immunity, but it is possible.

[competentpsycho]

Scenario A, you could be bussing Time. B, I could be wrong and following your fabricated case on him. C, I could be wrong and so could you and we're both targetting some townie.

How does limiting choices to only those that help you prove anything?

3 of those 3 scenarios mean you are town, so do I take that as proof that you are? If you are going to present an arguments based on scenarios, you have to consider all of them. I realize that if you are town you would have eliminated those scenarios where you are scum, but for now the rest of us cannot safely do so. Even if we discount this since you are the one that wrote it, also missing is the scenario of you both being right and Time/Ergo IS scum and you both are town. That is one case that you CANNOT rule out for sure even if you are town. So you are presenting the case in a way that leaves out possibilities. If you include this, like you should have, it would be 2 of 4 scenarios tajo is scum, 2 of 4 he is town, but again this is bad logic, since the "scenarios" used depend on whether or not tajo and Time are scum. Of course it will be 50% of the scenarios tajo is scum if you are considering the scenarios as: A. You are scum B. You are not.

You seem to try to hide this with complexity by adding in the other factor of Time/Ergo being scum and wording it differently than "you are scum".

You seem to be intent on using shit argument after shit argument to justify your vote. Using shit arguments is a bit of a scumtell, especially when it is a pattern, but trying to hide the fact that your argument is crap by the way you word it is fairly obvious to me. Either you are scum or completely incompetent town. I am 95% sure its the former. I like my vote exactly where it is.


Also,

B, I could be wrong and following your fabricated case on him.

I seem to remember you claiming that he agreed with you since you first stated suspicion on Time. I will go back and read to make sure, but don't have time to double check this for now, just putting it out for now so I remember.

[competentpsycho]

a little tidbit from post 418 im highlighting for TonyMontana

Another suspect: Tony Montana.
you seem to be defending Tajo a little TOO much.
-if he flips town, you feel it will clear you as you attached yourself to him with your defense of him.
-If he flips scum, and you are his scum buddy, people will think that you made the mistake of buddying to scum and got fooled. This provides cover for you (I beleive someone put together a "if tajo is scum, then tony is town" arguement earlier)

Out of these three, Tajo and Tony are my top two scumspects.
----------------------

What you quoted didn't sit well with me the first time around, and yet you bring it in again. You throw in how scum would rationalize the buddying, but word it as if he is already confirmed scum. I don't see any reason defending someone who stated the win condition you have as town is any sort of scum tell at all, yet you keep pushing Tony. If you were sure that tajo was scum, I could see being positive enough on Tony to vote for him, but why wouldn't you try to lynch tajo first since you KNEW it was him? Your play doesn't make any sense to me. You also are fishing with

So as a PS question to Batty

Do you see a pairing between Tajo and Tony, and if so, would this be enough to get you to vote for either or depending on who is in the lead at deadline?

. OH NO - Battousai and Grimmy are buddying up...

[competentpsycho]

Um...no YOU have to consider all of them but since I know my role I don't.

funny, I already stated that in the next sentence after what you quoted:

I realize that if you are town you would have eliminated those scenarios where you are scum, but for now the rest of us cannot safely do so.

Since you are trying to pitch a case to US you should still mention those cases though. I am not holding that against you though. What I am holding against you is the other case and the fact the logic is wrong that you completely ignored from my post, just stating that it was good posting:

Even if we discount this since you are the one that wrote it, also missing is the scenario of you both being right and Time/Ergo IS scum and you both are town. That is one case that you CANNOT rule out for sure even if you are town. So you are presenting the case in a way that leaves out possibilities. If you include this, like you should have, it would be 2 of 4 scenarios tajo is scum, 2 of 4 he is town, but again this is bad logic, since the "scenarios" used depend on whether or not tajo and Time are scum. Of course it will be 50% of the scenarios tajo is scum if you are considering the scenarios as: A. You are scum B. You are not.

Does this mean you agree that the logic was flawed then?

Except I already went back and corrected myself that Tajo did in fact mention it first but he didn't quite say the same thing I did.

I must have missed that. Sorry.

The problem I have with Grimmy's Tajo-hearts-Tony point is that it only works if he puts WIFOM into Tony's mouth. Defending a scumbuddy is still a massive risk, and no right-thinking player will or should assume that WIFOM will protect them if things go south.

Finally someone else sees how retarded Grimmy's case is.

[competentpsycho]

I already admitted my vote was because I was ticked he tried to get me prodded when it wasn't needed.

Can anyone explain me why does this deserve a vote?

I already admitted it was a horrible reason. I also said your reactions made it stick.

You mean a reaction like voting someone for asking for a prod? I really don't see how his reaction to you voting for him for a crappy reason makes him scum. Could you explain how it does?

[competentpsycho]

Vivian: I see the point your making that it might be creating a deadline panic (which I'm going to stop now since deadline has already been made). But the difference would be that if scum voted townie, they couldn't say it was because of deadline but because

I

told them a decision should have been made. The latter is not a credible reason IMO.

Neither is the former IMO. Deadline is not an excuse for voting for someone. If you don't believe someone is scum, don't vote for them. You are not required to vote at deadline, it just makes the day end as it is, so there is still no reason to vote for someone unless you think they are the most likely person to be scum, or protecting someone you KNOW has a power role or is town, which since there haven't been any night actions, no one should know.

[competentpsycho]

Love how you attack me and my way of playing mafia and not my arguments. Love it.
Yes. I'm pissed today so I should stop posting before you all lynch me.
See ya tomorrow.

this was another one of your "if you are not with me, you are against me" tactics. Like I said, nothing had occured to sway me from my vote. Can you provide anything that I should pay closer attention to (in your arguements) that should be enough to prove your innocence and sway anyones vote?

Grimmy
looking for proof in the pudding

Interesting post Grimmy. He said nothing about you being scum, or you not being with him in that post. He just stated that you are attacking his playstyle rather than his reasoning. This is an extreme strawman to the point of stupidity. I have arrived at the conclusion that you play stupidly, which makes telling if you are scum really hard. You don't even seem to read the posts you quote, just inject your argument that doesn't fit in.

Also, how can anyone prove their innocence really here. You need to have some proof that he IS scum to be voting. All you have for an argument is a playstyle that you and Muerrto keep saying that he has used all game long. He just posted proof that there are people against him that he does not think are scum. Unlike you and Muerrto who have used strawmen, faulty logic, and shitty reasoning, I really don't see what the case on tajo is. Can someone who is voting for him please post a list of things that prove (or point toward) him being scum?

[competentpsycho]

You don't need to quote my whole post if you are replying right after it. And the chances of me getting lynched if he flips scum are probably about the same as you getting lynched if he flips town. I would say I am on the safe side there since the majority of people must be town right now.

I am not saying tajo isn't scum, just that there are much better choices at the moment (IMO anyway). If no townie ever defended anyone against stupid cases when they thought other people were scummier, the scum would make up retarded reasons to vote for someone and get them lynched on it every time.

And you seem to be avoiding my question. Post some things that point toward him being scum, besides this playstyle that you don't like so much. The only thing I have seen from you (that you haven't taken back as a reason) is the fact that he reacted to your shitty vote on him angrily. I would be angry if someone voted me for asking for a prod also. I have seen OMGUS from both of you, which is basically your only stated reason ATM for voting for him. How does that make him more scummy than you? What other reasons make you think he is scum?

[competentpsycho]

Thank you. You have moved to the edge of my radar. My main reason for suspecting you was a lack of scumhunting and what seemed to be playing stupidly. I see what you are doing now. No one seemed to be stating any good reasons recently to lynch him, especially Muerrto. The reason I asked that was to eliminate or confirm a suspect. I was hoping Muerrto would reply first and further incriminate himself with shitty reasoning. This is almost as good. I have known there were a couple GOOD reasons to vote for tajo, it just struck me as odd that nobody that was voting him seemed to mention any of them recently, especially Muerrto, who has had quite a few scummy actions also.

As for your 2 questions - how the hell should I know his reasoning? If you want my thoughts on possibilities for his actions:

1) You word this weird - early in his wagon is what I would assume you mean. The only thing I can think of is he panicked thinking he was going to get quick lynched. It is retarded for town to do this, I agree. If he is town, he just pointed out a power role for scum. But it seems just as premature for scum to do. For now I am attributing this to just panicking, but there could be something I am not seeing. Did you mean early in the wagon or the game?

2) Which questions exactly do you mean?

[competentpsycho]

Still very dangerous to stick your neck out that far for someone when you're not sposed to know whether they're scum or not.

I always play kind of overeagerly. Sorry if that makes you think I may be scum but eventually every game someone is going to suspect you. I just rather that I would have drudged up information leading to the lynch of scum if I do get lynched than sitting back just to survive not helping at all. Sorta goes along with the whole "lynch for information" thing. I win if the town wins even if I am dead. Therefore the more information I can make available the better off we will be. Surviving is pointless if you are just a slave to the suggestions of the scum. Which is why I hate lurkers.

Speaking of which,

MOD: did Ergo respond to his last prod and not post or just ignore it completely?

He responded to his very first prod by PM, but he has not picked up his most recent post.

Who is your top choice?

Hasn't changed - still Muerrto ATM. Grimmy has moved down. Falcone and tajo are tied just behind Grimmy now. But it is D1 and we have no previous information to go off of, so this whole lineup will probably change depending on the circumstances of the lynch and what happens during the night.

[competentpsycho]

Yeah - notice I never say he is town, or even for that matter that I agree with him about much of anything - just pick at shitty arguments against him. As you touched on before, I am not so much defending his actions as looking at arguments against him suspiciously, and with good reason. Often my aggressive play earns me a fairly popular wagon (surprised it hasn't here), and many people see my attacks on shitty arguments as simply OMGUS, just because I concentrate on the people attacking me. Here is proof that it isn't OMGUS, in case I attack my attackers' cases later this game - don't dismiss it as such without reading my posts first.

I don't really mind getting attention, it usually helps me find scum better when the conversation doesn't slow to a crawl. Popular wagons almost always have scum on them, whether its the person being suspected or one of the people attacking them. I usually look at the people doing the attacking if the case isn't very strong. It's D1, so the case isn't strong but that's about all we have to go on. Hence he is on my list, but I am still suspecting the attackers. I can't really trust anyone right now, but I am not going to sit back and do nothing just because I suspect people on both sides. Yes he is third on my list, it just happens that much of the reasoning being put forth is against him, therefore much of the shitty reasoning is against him.

@shadow - tony has recently been active lurking. He didn't disappear, he posted yesterday. He hasn't posted content really since I came into the game. I want to do a reread on him sometime in the near future, but I don't have time right now. I will have a better answer then, along with a few other people that have stopped posting much. As for right now I would say neutral leaning pretty good to the scum side, but that is premature until I get a reread in. I'll get a good list together after my reread of the order of precedence if you would like.

[competentpsycho]

Ok, did a quick reread of Tony's posts only from this game. A couple things come to mind.

I am 99.99% sure Tony and tajo are not both scum. Tony pretty much says what I am thinking in 351.

The other possibility is that Tony is scum and tajo isn't. I didn't see anything in Tony's posts that made me think he was scum, and coming out and saying that it matched his win condition word for word wouldn't just be risky for scum, as tajo never said that was verbatim from his, but would be suicide. I don't see Tony being scum at this point. The only thing I don't like about Tony is that he doesn't post much, but there are more than a couple people that are worse at that than him. My verdict: Tony is most likely town.

I also think it would be way too risky Day 1 for someone to mention a win condition, though the way tajo worded it he could have backed out of it later since he didn't actually say that was his exact win condition. That and the fact he didn't get modkilled when this:

11.) Do not quote or fakequote your role PM. This is a modkillable offence.

was in the rules makes him suspicious. This is the rule that usually prevents town from comparing PMs and thus winning by using game mechanics rather than playing the game. I don't know why I didn't think to check for that before. That makes me think that it possibly wasn't what his PM said. It could also be that since he didn't say that was verbatim what his PM said, he was safe. Either way tajo has moved ahead of Falcone in my list and is now tied with Grimmy (for second). Would it not be for the fact that the act of trying to guess the town win condition at that point in the game would be insane and the fact that Tony had the same thing when I feel he is town, tajo would have my vote.

A side note, I have a new theory about the whole tajo claiming fairly early in his bandwagon situation. I will keep it to myself for now, since if I am right it may help to find scum if I don't tell.

[competentpsycho]

Ok, we got 4 candidates now with votes.

Hmmm, seems to me we would have 5 - Falcone has a vote also. Here is my list with explanations for changes in my suspicions that have happened since my last post.

Tony - 8
Grimmy - 2 (refusing to answer questions... seems you brought that up before about tajo... now you are doing it)
Tajo - 2.5
Muerrto - 1
Falcone - 3
Battousai - 3 (this whole thing of listing likelihoods to switch votes at deadline gives me a bad feeling)
ShadowGirl - 6
Fuzzy - 4
Ergo - 4
PEG - 5
Vivian - 9
CP - 10

Can anyone give me some pointer where you think Tony is scum? I don't see it. Am I missing something major?

[competentpsycho]

I am here. Good point on Tony, but its still quite a bit of a risk for scum on D1. Nothing has happened to change my vote so far.

[competentpsycho]

Waiting for Muerrto, Competent, pickem, falcone (replacement), Vivian, Ergo (replacement).

waiting for what exactly? I am here. I already gave my ratings.

The only thing that has happened since my last post is a bunch of bickering between you two (again). Muerrto's case is entirely based on tajo's playstyle when threatened with a wagon. Not a bad idea in itself, there could be tells in there. I'm not seeing them though. Waiting for tajo's case on Muerrto.

[competentpsycho]

OMGUS - I posted less than 24 hours ago and just got prodded. I now think you are scum Shadow... not really. Nothing new has really been put forth. The only thing I'd like to comment on is Batto's reply to Shadow's question doesn't sit well with me. Batto are you saying you would only do it if you were the deciding vote?

[competentpsycho]

Relax, it was sarcasm playing off Muerrto's weird vote earlier for being prodded. I thought that was pretty obvious by the "... not really". I'll use [/sarcasm] instead next time.

[competentpsycho]

I have... but only once before. I was the one that mentioned this before, though it seemed like no one else had seen this at the time. It wasn't a game of skitzer's that it happened in since this is the first one of his I have played, and IIRC it wasn't even on this site. It may have been on something awful. Anyway I also find this statement sort of odd as Batt never mentioned having a game like this before.

[competentpsycho]

Late EBWOP - just re-read Muerrto's post. I didn't get someone ELSE'S PM in that game, just a generic vanilla townie one.

[competentpsycho]

I have seen games where the two win conditions were virtually identical except for a word or two. its very feasible.

With this win condition? If so I would like to see it. Also, there are possibly third parties in this game, so there would be more than two win conditions, let alone the fact that apparently different townies have different win conditions. Wording all these similarly would be highly unlikely.

it is also very easy for scum to jump on the wagon and say "me too" when it comes to a win condition arguement.

True, but it would be extremely risky to do until at least one townie confirms that is the win condition. Oh, and its spelled argument.


Just a question for everyone: Who here has modded games before?

[competentpsycho]

it can easily be switched for something along the lines of
"You could win when all threats to

your group

are eliminated.

Cut and past "the town" in there and VIOLA! A NEW WIN CONDITION.

Grimmy
its MAGICAL

Hmm so for the mafia: You could win when all threats to the mafia are eliminated.

So, scum wins if they eliminate SK and cults? It is magical, and completely retarded and unbalanced.

The Watcher role is one of the easiest to fake.

lets say there are 3 scum. You could post the next day that you watched scum number 2 and he did nothing. meanwhile, scum #2 was sent out to make the kill. This not only "proves" you are a watcher, but also helps to clear scum #2 as town because he did not move when the kill was made
...
according to you.

make sense now?

So you are wanting to lynch him on the chance that he MIGHT be faking. Its pretty easy to fake vanilla townie too, should we lynch anyone that claims that? You are suggesting we don't even give him a chance to prove himself. Also, congrats, you have proved TRACKER can be faked easily and give an advantage to scum at the same time. Watcher sees who targets that person. So by your logic tracker would be one of the easiest to fake. Care to make a case for watcher?

Again you have gone back to crap logic trying to get a lynch at any cost, not listening to anyone else who brings up flaws in your thinking. How is this pro-town at all? Everyone makes mistakes but when proved wrong town should have no reason to ignore they were wrong and not consider others' thoughts.



@tajo: have you modded games before?

[competentpsycho]

damn it tony you had like 10 hours and you beat me to it by 2 minutes... what the hell

[competentpsycho]

...and his defense is basically 'duh I'm town stupid' is why I suspect him.

Sorry just have to comment on this, seeing it quoted reminded me of my initial reaction to this argument. What defense do you expect town to give D1? It's not as if they have an alibi or any sort of credible proof whatsoever that they are town. And its not as if there was any sort of credible argument against him before that, that he could defend himself against. You basically voted him for the prod thing, he said "Im town you idiot" and now you are holding that against him. The overblown reaction... I can somewhat see, but you did the same thing with the vote that started this whole fiasco. You are trying to use the fact that he is defending himself in the only way possible as proof he is scum. That doesn't make any sense to me. What other kind of defense would you have expected from a townie in this case?

[competentpsycho]

competant.

if you feel you have some better lynch options for day one then by all means, speak up and let us know who they are (requote them if you stated them before)

Grimmy, do you have any non flawed logic leading you to believe tajo is scum? I have already stated Muerrto is a better lynch option in my opinion. He uses craplogic, worse even than you, and is pushing it hard to lynch someone who I have seen to date no convincing evidence of being scum.

Overblown reactions... whatever - seen it from both muerrto and tajo - muerrto's was worse, especially considering the cause of the reactions
defense of "I am town" - what do you expect? (see my above post)
fact that watcher might be fake claimed by scum - NOT PROOF (any town role might be fake claimed by scum)

What else is there that shows tajo is scum? please tell me. With 6 people with positive votes on him (2 of which are being replaced btw), there must be some reason I am missing. Is this all based on gut feelings, and if so, why does that trump people using bad logic pushing for this lynch?

and i shall restate, that I am ok with a tony OR a tajo lynch today. I do not have my mind set on just one. These two are my top choices. You still have plenty of time to convince everyone of someone else though. So please, do so.

It seems here like you are just trying to get me to vote for Tony because you think I am trying to protect tajo and you are willing to vote for either. Not going to happen. I am not making these cases to protect tajo, but because I think (by the crap cases put against him) that scum are on his wagon. That puts Muerrto and you in my possible choices for a lynch. You have definitely moved up in my list from the way you are avoiding questions. You keep stalling with one day left to deadline.

[competentpsycho]

Damn, running out of time. While I really would rather have Muerrto lynched, the only thing worse than making a wrong lynch is a no-lynch. I hate to do this, and tajo if you are town I am truly sorry, but the mechanics of this deadline necessitate this.

Unvote, positive vote populartajo

[competentpsycho]

Remember that Comp and Tony are 100% town.

I can understand your thinking on Tony for the win condition thing, but how the hell am I 100% though? I have not done anything so far to 100% confirm myself as town, and don't remember seeing nhat doing anything of that nature before I replaced him. Just wondering what your reasoning is before you go.

[competentpsycho]

Get in line shadow, I asked first


And as much as I would like to stay up until deadline its 11 here and I have been up since 5 so I will check again in the morning to see the results.

[competentpsycho]

Special Rules Currently in Effect

Good catch - didn't see that.

It might be in someone's role that they block alignment until they are dead (similar to a role in Tar's Mind Screw Mafia).

Sounds more like screw the town mafia. I hope that's not the case.

This Game, Self-Explanatory, Almost Died,

Nightmonth 2

.

Prediction or typo?

[competentpsycho]

Yeah I'm waiting for the extra flavor from skitz to see if that helps me deduce anything.

What I am thinking so far:

There's a good chance that at least one of the two killed was town. Unless the scum happened to get roleblocked or a doc guessed right, but if that was the case then there are a lot of possible kills during the nights so it seems unlikely. Also, it seems pretty retarded for scum to kill tajo since he was our main suspect from yesterday which turned into a no lynch. I'm thinking that was a vig kill or SK, but could be something related to some night action tajo had also. My guess as of right now is Tony was town killed by scum and tajo was killed by someone else, which unfortunately doesn't reveal any sort of alignment.

If nothing else comes up before next week I will probably go through a quick reread with the assumption that Tony was town and see if anything sticks out. I'd like to wait for more flavor first in case something shows I am wrong about that assumption.

[competentpsycho]

Just looked at skitz's post at the beginning of the day and realized he said there may or may not be more flavor coming. I'm not holding my breath. Next week I'll do that re-read - probably won't have time before that.

[competentpsycho]

Anyway, I'll be gone till Sunday.

I don't think he needs a prod... he said he'd be gone until today.

[competentpsycho]

There's a good chance that at least one of the two killed was town. Unless the scum happened to get roleblocked or a doc guessed right, but if that was the case then there are a lot of possible kills during the nights so it seems unlikely.

Also, it seems pretty retarded for scum to kill tajo since he was our main suspect from yesterday which turned into a no lynch. I'm thinking that was a vig kill or SK, but could be something related to some night action tajo had also.

My guess as of right now is Tony was town killed by scum and tajo was killed by someone else, which unfortunately doesn't reveal any sort of alignment.

@Shadow: Just my meta of the scum. I was assuming that they had a kill last night and that at least one of the people killed would have been town (green), and since I think it would be stupid of them to kill tajo, that would make their kill most likely Tony (red). With this line of thinking I can't tell an alignment on tajo, so there is no use assuming he is town or scum. With the assumption that at least one was town and the thought that scum killing tajo would be retarded, the conclusion would be that Tony was town killed by scum.

Tony I assumed was town but realize now I left out a possibility even with this line of thinking. Perhaps Tony was SK and killed tajo and scum killed Tony. Fairly unlikely but possible. The most plausible explanation would be my initial thoughts still, which is why I feel the safest assuming Tony was town on my reread and not assuming tajo was town or scum.

[competentpsycho]

If the game is restarted, none of us could be in it again unless we get the same parts. Otherwise it would be broken. Also people that have been in it using alts could break it by signing up. I'm not sure a restart is a viable option.

[competentpsycho]

... weird. It's almost like you read my mind on this Tom. There are only a couple of things I'd like to address with your analysis as its almost exactly how I feel. When you say Ergo grew quiet - I am pretty sure he abandoned the game. I have played with him before and he is usually very talkative. Yeah it still doesn't help his case but I don't think he was lurking. You seem to point out Grimmy mirroring Batt's opinions also, but I think Grim was the first to voice these if I remember right, and Batt was echoing them.

I was wondering if you could clarify one thing you said when talking about ShadowGirl (remembering I have never seen Disturbia): "She said that Timeater’s claim made sense to her as town, which is hard for me to argue since I do not know her role. But when I look back to the double kills of Tony and Tajo… I would probably have to lean the other way." I don't get what you mean by this. Are you thinking SK?

Also, I was re-reading the reveals in the rules post trying to make sense of your comment, and I think there may be another, more likely reason for Tony's death than what I proposed before. CPR Doctor or Insane Doctor makes more sense considering the mode of death was (major dose of death/e.coli). E. Coli is an infection, which fits with death by doc. All I can say is if there is a doc who "protected" Tony last night, maybe you shouldn't target anyone else, or at least only target people you feel to be scum. If this is the case, then Tajo's death confuses me as scum killing tajo seems unlikely as I said before, but SK and vig on tajo seem unlikely also. Any thoughts?

[competentpsycho]

Anybody else get the feeling Tajo may have been a cop if he was town?

I did for a while... I think I hinted at it somewhere in there, but he kept pushing watcher so consistently that I just figured I was reading too far into things.

[competentpsycho]

So, whatever was preventing the reveals is gone...

Muerrto, Tainted Tomato (

Roleblocking

Serial Killer), died Day 2

maybe Muerrto was responsible - unless he got to target 2 people at night

So, does that mean the second kill was made by Muerrto?

Yeah I would bet that Muerrto killed Tony (e. coli from a tainted tomato) and mafia killed tajo.

Not necessarily - Tony was a weak doc - he could have protected scum also. But the ecoli makes it seem like SK kill was likely.

[competentpsycho]

I think everyone here is forgetting the full details of a weak doctor. Yes, he could have been killed by scum/SK, but the weak doctor is automatically killed if they protect any mafia members. It's possible that, in his random choice to protect someone, he picked scum and died because of it. The lack of either other kill could be down to a bulletproof or proper doctor stopping the kill.

No, I didn't forget. But it's just that the flavor makes it sound like the tainted tomato and his death were connected (the whole E. Coli thing).

[competentpsycho]

Also, while it may be a somewhat flimsy argument in a game of mafia, I'm sticking with the idea that he protected scum as occams razor dictates that option is far more likely than scum getting lucky and killing the doctor.

Missed something about your post: Funny that you mention that it is unlikely that scum killed him when it is also unlikely that a roleblocker blocked one of the kills. The more likely option is that Tony and tajo in some combination were killed by scum and SK, as Tony more likely protected a town player. There is also the chance that he protected scum AND was killed by scum or SK.

And by the true definition of Occam's Razor - the argument with the least assumptions is usually the best - since we can take out the assumption that there is a roleblocker and that he got lucky enough to block a kill and the assumption that Tony targeted the scum (which is less likely than him randomly picking town) the more likely option I mentioned above would be the most likely.

Now if you mean to say you would like to look into his past posts to see if he hinted at who he would be protecting then I don't blame you as this could be good information against that person since there is a chance that he DID target scum, but I am saying that is not the more likely situation.

[competentpsycho]

My thoughts. And just off the top of my head as to who he would protect (probably Tajo) I don't think he would have hit scum with a protect. This is just speculation, of course.

If I were Tony I wouldn't have protected tajo as I didn't think scum would kill him. I still don't know why they did. And if he did breadcrumb who he would be protecting he could have been trying to use his role as an investagative one, in which case he would have TRIED to target scum, avoiding tajo.

[competentpsycho]

things just got interesting again.


Tajo was killed by scum because it would have made me, batty and muertto look guilty.

I think Muerto killed Tony because it would have made batty look guilty (if I remember correctly, Batty thought tony was suspicius)

And now we move on to round two, with more info than we had when the day first restarted.

Grimmy

And now we move on to round 2.5 with more WIFOM than we had when the day first started. Seriously though, it seems like you are making a defense for yourself with WIFOM against an accusation nobody made. And a defense for Batty. Nervous much?

With this and your play from yesterday, you are my new top pick.

FOS: Battousai
vote: Grimmy

[competentpsycho]

what about my day one gameplay marks me as scummy?

Well, I found your D1 L-1 vote on timeater very scummy. Just an L-1 vote on page 3 would be scummy enough, let alone for the reasons of no better choice and the fact that you hate people who need replaced. When I replaced in I made some notes after getting through page 6. My first note to myself was "Grimmy is scum."

Besides that you use plenty of WIFOM and strawmanning in your arguments against Tony and Tajo. For a moment during D1 I thought you may be "playing stupidly" to see who would mention it and was therefore scumhunting - but if this was the case your actions at the end of the day would have been far different.

That is the play from D1 I am talking about.

Oh, and for everyone else's information: I didn't just FOS Batty for Grimmy's defense here. It seems like Grimmy was buddying up with Batty D1 also. This is staying as an FOS unless I find evidence of Batty being scum though, since the buddying seemed one-way.

[competentpsycho]

I think she means Day 1. There is no other thread that I know of.

[competentpsycho]

Yeah, especially with the voting record from D1 available to prove that was not the case.

[competentpsycho]

I posted my thoughts from what occured during the night. Simple.

Not so simple when you claimed it as fact and not thoughts. This is what disturbed me the most about that post:

Tajo was killed by scum because it would have made me, batty and muertto look guilty.

You say this like you KNOW the reason scum did it. There is only one group of people who would have that knowledge.


Also, please clarify your "lost PM" statement.

[competentpsycho]

How stupid would it be to say "this is exactly" why it happened. thats putting a big KICK ME sign on my own back.

That is how it came off to me. You didn't include "I think" or "my opinion" anywhere in that statement. You just stated it as if it were fact. You did however include "I think" when talking about Muerrto's motives, though. Funny, this would match exactly what scum would know - they would KNOW the scum motives, but would only have an opinion on the SK motives. A quote so you and everyone else can see where I am coming from with this:

things just got interesting again.


Tajo was killed by scum because it would have made me, batty and muertto look guilty.

I think Muerto killed Tony because it would have made batty look guilty (if I remember correctly, Batty thought tony was suspicius)

And now we move on to round two, with more info than we had when the day first restarted.

Grimmy

That is post 900.

[competentpsycho]

My guess is we are not in lylo. With a serial killer there may only be two scum, and skitz didn't really seem to act like his modkilling would break the game much (modkilling into lylo would almost certainly mean a mafia victory seeing as how we haven't caught any of them yet).

Also, I don't like how the ONLY votes thus far are me voting Grimmy and others following. Somebody HAS to be suspicious of other people, and I am not going to sit around and let this day go by with little discussion on anyone else. The more discussion we have on other people, the better we will be off tomorrow, so start talking everyone.

unvote

I will look into Tom Mason and Batty later, got to get back to work right now.

[competentpsycho]

Somehow I had made myself believe i was a tracker during day 1. So of course I tracked you. [face_palm] So I tried to protect my top suspect. It's good to know I would have died anyway :p

Yeah i tracked you... so I knew.

I watched tajo, he tracked tony. He killed tony.

I thought Muerrto was a vig and was debating what to do with that information before he was killed.

You mean you watched tony and tajo tracked him right? and tajo didnt kill tony, either tony protecting you did or muerrto did.

[competentpsycho]

me and batty took you out tajo.