Mini Theme 2259: Superfight Mafia!
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jjh927 Survivor
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jjh927 Survivor
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I was reading the rulesIn post 8, Radical Rat wrote:VOTE: jjh927
There's two minutes in between Pooky's vote and yours, I don't believe that's a real PEdit."As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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I am townIn post 27, Firebringer wrote:jjh r u town so i can just take all ur reads and pretend they are mine? pls let me know as soon as possible kthx
I'll let you know when I have reads"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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jjh927 Survivor
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jjh927 Survivor
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jjh927 Survivor
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jjh927 Survivor
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That being said, if you'd like to engage with real arguments, I note that the tone in your question there is substantially more defensive than the simple "Why do you think that?", which I find very interesting given that I have you listed as another plausible scumteam member"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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jjh927 Survivor
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Your tone was defensive of flea- that is not at all explained by your apparent belief that there is nothing AI there yet, as if you truly believed that in a self-consistent way then I think you would be more interested in the possibility of there being a reason than the reverse.
Did you ask on the grounds that you thought it would be impossible for me to elaborate?
If so;
-Why does asking with that intention yield any more useful information than just waiting and seeing what I do?
I would say your question was asked with the explicit intention of pushing me afterwards because I correctly pinned your scumbuddy and put you in a poe"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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To actually put something into words, that is actually my main issue. I think Flea has posted with that correlation in mind and specifically gone out of faer way to appear active although with minimal content, hence the fixation with being top poster etcIn post 136, Radical Rat wrote:I would like you to put it into words, because honestly I don't see anything AI in faer posts, aside from activity being generally but not reliably positively correlated with towniness.
Frankly, I haven't seen much of anyone that really says much yet, though I am softly leaning Town on TL for now."As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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No, it's e-3In post 148, Not Known 15 wrote:
And this is an unannounced E-2.In post 145, TemporalLich wrote:VOTE: Not Known 15
Transparently defensive in a scummy way, if red flip Flea is sus."As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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jjh927 Survivor
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You're right that's it's quite a small poeIn post 147, Not Known 15 wrote:
That is, for page 5, a very small POE.In post 130, jjh927 wrote:VOTE: Flea the Magician
My page 6 poe is Flea, plus 2 scum in Enchant, Cyrus, Pooky, Faerie, NK15
I am confident this will thin further
And this sounds like a confident read.In post 132, jjh927 wrote:Because Flea is the first scum
Add in an argument that falls on the face if you are scum and hope nobody notices.In post 134, jjh927 wrote:Putting things into words moves it away from my subconscious and there's no reason to do that yet
Simply trust in my my well-documented ability to find scum on day 1
Attack the messenger.In post 141, jjh927 wrote:Your tone was defensive of flea- that is not at all explained by your apparent belief that there is nothing AI there yet, as if you truly believed that in a self-consistent way then I think you would be more interested in the possibility of there being a reason than the reverse.
Did you ask on the grounds that you thought it would be impossible for me to elaborate?
If so;
-Why does asking with that intention yield any more useful information than just waiting and seeing what I do?
I would say your question was asked with the explicit intention of pushing me afterwards because I correctly pinned your scumbuddy and put you in a poe
And this is exactly the maximum he could have tried to get out of Flea's posts, and it is absolutely BS because no one, save maybe for a newbie, would fall for a trick like that, so it isn't AI. The reads, and their reasons, are made of thin air.In post 143, jjh927 wrote:
To actually put something into words, that is actually my main issue. I think Flea has posted with that correlation in mind and specifically gone out of faer way to appear active although with minimal content, hence the fixation with being top poster etcIn post 136, Radical Rat wrote:I would like you to put it into words, because honestly I don't see anything AI in faer posts, aside from activity being generally but not reliably positively correlated with towniness.
Frankly, I haven't seen much of anyone that really says much yet, though I am softly leaning Town on TL for now.
jjh is scum.
I am good at the game
If you were town and interested in how I got to where I got to, I think you'd have maybe asked me about my townreads- particularly whoever you are most confused about not being in my small poe. Discussing townreads this close to the start of the game is the actual way content usually gets generated, whereas fixated on scumreads like you did is potentially harmful to generating content as people really don't have a lot to go on to push with and going "but why though" is how you make someone lose out on some early pressure.
You're right that it's a confident read. I feel like I'm far more confident there than I would normally be at this stage of the game, so I am absolutely going to make that clear for the sake of applying pressure.
Yeah sure, I guess if I was scum then my read accuracy isn't the most relevant thing overall, but the point here is that I said a thing and expect to be held accountable later for things I say now for the sake of generating content. Did you read the word "Yet"? It implies I am going to do something later, and that I did indeed have something here.
If you are the messenger then hell yeah I am attacking you. Answer my questions. I'm interested in what you were actually trying to achieve, and what you hoped to get.
And finally- it would appear that now that I have provided the reasoning you sought after, which you are considering the "absolute maximum" despite that I actually have more I have not stated yet, you attack it. And badly- I don't think you understand that the point is that the posts being made by Flea are very easy to make as scum. That is the primary drive here- it is not effectiveness driven by some mast scum ploy, but something extremely simple as motivation is often harder to fake as scum. I wouldn't expect to catch GOOD scum on page 6"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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Yes, that would normally be the case, but Not Mafia is a known serial lolhammerer who will just hammer a wagon when it gets to E-1, and so E-1 IS functionally the hammer, so move it back one and announce your E-2sIn post 156, TemporalLich wrote:anyway E-1 is the one you're supposed to announce at your leisure to avoid accidental hammer, accidental E-1 is not as bad as accidental hammer"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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Right so you actually are maintaining the stance that you asked me that because you were under the impression that nobody could possibly have seen anything alignment indicative out of Flea at this point, and therefore I MUST be scum for having a read thereIn post 154, Not Known 15 wrote:
It should be obvious that I asked him so that everyone would see what I saw.In post 149, jjh927 wrote:You know 141 contained questions directed at you, right?"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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It's an open setup and NK15 is at ACTUAL E-3 as I am not currently voting there, just pushingIn post 161, TemporalLich wrote:btw NK15 is at effective E-3 because no one has claimed doublevoter or other weirdvoter and setup spec likely indicates one doesn't exist"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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He's not just the type- he is probably the most prolific lolhammerer on site
There is pretty much no circumstance under which it is safe to E-1 someone you are not happy to elim right now with NM in a game
Even if it's NM
Fortunately this setup is entirely vanilla and so we do not need to wait for claims"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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Don't get me wrong- I like later days, but day 1 is the only day I am guaranteed to live for. The myth of the lategame player is that there are some players who are better in the earlygame, and some who are better in the lategame. The reality is that you have more information in the lategame, and thus everyone is better then. Some players are just generally better than others and become "earlygame players" because they can get good reads out of day 1 and get killed before they hit lategame, whereas those that become "lategame players" are the ones who don't get nightkilled and associate their best play with lategame when they had more information
This is mountainous. All the information we get in any given day phase compounds, and that is all the information we get. We need to maximise the value of each future flip"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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Potential mountainous game?
It just IS a mountainous game
This is literally the setup
viewtopic.php?f=115&t=88370&p=13165964#p13165964"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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It was linked in the game description in signupsIn post 177, Radical Rat wrote:
I never saw this topic because I very rarely visit MD, but that's mildly disappointing. I had expected PRs AND fight shenanigans, but ah well. At least now I won't be reading into the champion selections for PR hints.In post 174, jjh927 wrote:Potential mountainous game?
It just IS a mountainous game
This is literally the setup
viewtopic.php?f=115&t=88370&p=13165964#p13165964"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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For what it's worth, NK15, I think you have no idea how to effectively scumhunt, and this is the exact situation you had going for you with your tunnel on the fire/pooky hydra in RC's latest upick. That is to say, I think you are town here
I am looking forward to you tunneling on me all game and everyone ignoring you"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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Revealing your fight choices removes the fight mechanic and turns it into a "vote on who you want NKed" mechanic and I am not up for that as it's not what I signed up for
It may be mechanically optimal but it's not fun or in the spirit of things"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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Although actually I'll shut this one down with logic
There is counterplay to declaring your fighters. The rules do not indicate that the winner of a fight is revealed, only that the loser dies. Therefore scum could put themselves in the fight against a town member and submit the fighter declared by someone who is more widely townread etc"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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Yeah there's just no counterplay I guess
I thought there was something there with regard to people being confirmed and shit but there just isn't
However it would totally suck
What the game really needs is a Fight Adjudication and Referee Team that solves the disputes as an independent third party"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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That's not a mechanical reason
Mech assumes that town won't just be assholes for suboptimal outcomes
It's more a reason that surfaces when things are put into practice.
But yeah, it would defeat the point of the game. We aren't playing "guess the player that submitted the fighter". We are determining who would win in a fight under various conditions. I want to see creative constraints that actually affect the outcome, like "It's a rap battle" or "They both have to raise and train a child who will fight as proxies on their 18th birthday""As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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I do think there is a hidden scumsiding element to this implementation of the setup
If the most recently eliminated player determines the constraint, and we eliminate scum, then scum know what the constraint is going to be and will have a very strong advantage if they decide to put themselves in a fight in order to snipe a specific player
I don't really know what to suggest to counter this other than kindly requesting that the scumteam play fair, although if we get someone submitting something absurdly relevant to a specific constraint immediately after a scum lim then maybe we bully them"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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Eg if the constraint was "Whoever dies first wins" and someone submitted Draluc, the vampire who dies in no time from the series "The Vampire Dies in No Time" then I'd just vote for the other guy, provided it was after a scum lim. After a town lim it'd just be a beautiful coincidence though"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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Main addition to the rules here is that mafia can't just keep choosing the same people
I like this as it means that if we assume scum never put themselves in a fight, we can nolim in 4-3 7p elo and make scum fight, and then we're really gaming because we can fucking do it again"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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If we never elim anyone who has been in a fight, there will be 4 people who have not been in a fight in 7p. Therefore, even if we do not elim scum, if scum have not put any of their team into a fight at that point, they risk losing 2/3 of their team to a 50/50 and going into the following day phase at 4-1
I think this ups the town ev somewhat"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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Jingle may not have foreseen this strategy in the discussion of this setup but I am sure he approves of it
This is the "If town completely fucks up at every step you can still do the funny fight thing" gambit, where if scum have never been in a fight you wind up with a true 50/50 followed by either a scum win or a 4-1 gamestate where scum is confirmed to exist in 1 of the 2 most recent fight survivors (also known as a town win) - the existence of which incentivises scum to be in exactly one fight before that point
Pedit: okay, very interesting that votes become made public as the explicit opposite was implied by word use"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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In post 310, Faerie Mages wrote:Faerie: Mage, how do u feel about the camera footage I just played?
Mage: Hmm I think that jj guy looks worse because the defense on the nk dude looked weird
Faerie: I think it might only be an issue if nk is scum
Mage: I think the bear looks a lot worse if nk is town
Faerie: Sure, I think that we'll come to an agreement when it comes to it
Mage: That concludes episode two of destroying the baddies with Faerie and Mage! Until next time... *zap*
Out of interest, why do you think scum!me would pop up to defend scum!NK15 after he has already been hammered when I was the driving force in pushing him?"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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Please answer this question when you get the chance as it is importantIn post 326, jjh927 wrote:In post 310, Faerie Mages wrote:Faerie: Mage, how do u feel about the camera footage I just played?
Mage: Hmm I think that jj guy looks worse because the defense on the nk dude looked weird
Faerie: I think it might only be an issue if nk is scum
Mage: I think the bear looks a lot worse if nk is town
Faerie: Sure, I think that we'll come to an agreement when it comes to it
Mage: That concludes episode two of destroying the baddies with Faerie and Mage! Until next time... *zap*
Out of interest, why do you think scum!me would pop up to defend scum!NK15 after he has already been hammered when I was the driving force in pushing him?"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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I was conscious that there were many reasons you could have come to that conclusion and some would have been actually correct because my defence of NK15 was not at all in good faith
The guy was obviously scum. Mainly I wanted to try and place Fire and Pooky more confidently, but also see how anyone else reacted to a potential lifeline. Gamestate as it was, there was no way any scum would try to defend NK15, but by suddenly appearing to TR him despite being the major push on him I thought I might be able to honeypot scum into defending him"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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But yeah this is why I was annoyed at the fast day end. I had shit I was trying to do
I'd like to see if I can get a confident read on everyone in the game by the end of the day phase rather than just powerlimming Flea the Magician, but given that I am now going to be alive for the foreseeable future (probably until the game ends) I'm not in as much of a rush"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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Temporallich, it is clear that you are trying but you do misinterpret things a lot
241 is the singular post I was just talking about with regards to trying to change the perceived gamestate to see if anyone tried to defend NK15
The "self evident" aspect of NK15's scumplay comes entirely from my rather in-depth push on him
PEdit: 343 is another example of a misinterpretation, for what it's worth, as while I can see that you are thinking you are not thinking very logically"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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If you want to speculate at all on the participants of the fight, the big question in my mind is why I wasn't fighting Radical Rat. To put it bluntly, I was pretty sure I was gonna be fighting, and I was pretty sure that's who I was going to be fighting"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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How does 241 look like I am bussing? I never actually voted NK15. I just went really hard on exposing why he was tonally scum, but I did that elsewhere. 241 is a defence of NK15.In post 354, TemporalLich wrote:why not NM? He's playing some weird 6D chess with multiverse time travel and quantum superposition town game
pedit: 241 could be a reaction test but it does make you look like you're definitely bussing. As for 343 that's a post where jjh looks bad if NK15 is scum and where pooky looks bad if NK15 is town, it's a bit too telegraphed for me
btw the response is openwolfing so my vote is staying there even if it's mod-confirmed to be a misrep
ppedit: magical thinking
343 is the kind of post I have seen people make as scum, which is why I wanted to question it in more detail. It's also a post I have seen people make as town. I would also say that it is impossible to make me look bad given the relative levels of influence on the gamestate, so the outcome doesn't achieve anything pro-scum."As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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Nothing in my ISO that could be read as indicating that I expected to be fighting radical rat? Why would I have pointed that out?In post 356, TemporalLich wrote:(my vote will change, but not because I misrepped faerie, my scumread on them is still in medium confidence)
there's nothing in your ISO that could even be read as such jjh, and I Ctrl+F5ed Radical. You're just trying to bus Radical Rat as well.
If I'm trying to bus people, does that mean you think I am scum, or do you misunderstand what bussing is?"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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If you mean there is nothing in my iso that indicates my push on NK15 then I really don't know what I can say to help here because you would be both missing a significant portion of my iso as well as suffering from memory loss given that you were influenced by my push on NK15"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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I think the main thing I am griping at here is that to bus means that you are scum who contributes to the elimination of scum
that is, if you think someone is bussing, that means you think they are scum
Another word you used, "definitely", means that something is the case 100% of the time.
Therefore, when you say I am "definitely bussing", you are saying I am 100% scum.
From my perspective, you reached this conclusion by questionable logic which itself rested on a misinterpretation of a single post, while ignoring like 95% of the posts I had made in relation to NK15- some of which I would hope you would remember given that I was the person who dissected NK15's tone, and forgetting my contribution to the day kinda indicates you aren't townhunting at all- and I'm really not sure what to think about that now"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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jjh927 Survivor
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I don't know how you can say tone isn't substance and that you considered NK15 substantially scummy in the same breath. Tone was the ONLY thing to go off at the point where you voted him
Tone absolutely is substance especially when you dig into it in the way I did"As best I can tell, jjh is some kind of wizard with mind control powers." -Jingle-
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