Mini 2265: Bears with Guns 2: Pandamonium game over
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StrangeMatter Mafia Scum
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Agree with this, especially since I'm fairly confident that people that I mind-meld with mostly similar thoughts are more often than not town.In post 51, MathBlade wrote:
Generally if someone thinks the same thought I had (before I post it) they’re usually town.In post 50, MegAzumarill wrote:Still don't see how that would implicate town!momo but I see your point on roden
Doesn’t always work but it’s enough to start-
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I mean saying that is town!Momo I just don't feel really makes much sense to me at the moment?In post 82, StrangeMatter wrote:I meant I agree with the explanation they have for mind melds, though I'm not sure I agree with the logic behind it?-
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Let me rephrase that, because you clearly misread what I said. I meant that I'm fairly confident that people I mind-meld with are more often town.In post 111, Malakittens wrote:In post 51, MathBlade wrote:In post 50, MegAzumarill wrote:Still don't see how that would implicate town!momo but I see your point on rodenGenerally if someone thinks the same thought I had (before I post it) they’re usually town.
Doesn’t always work but it’s enough to start
So you think people who mind meld with you are often scum, which is opposite of what Math is saying.In post 81, StrangeMatter wrote:
Agree with this, especially since I'm fairly confident that people that I mind-meld with mostly similar thoughts are more often than not town.In post 51, MathBlade wrote:
Generally if someone thinks the same thought I had (before I post it) they’re usually town.In post 50, MegAzumarill wrote:Still don't see how that would implicate town!momo but I see your point on roden
Doesn’t always work but it’s enough to start-
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Sorry I haven't really been talking much I've been busy and aren't able to post much.
I don't necessarily agree with that, especially since I've sorted people off certain wagons I find to be more likely to have scum in them, but I kind of see where you're coming with the thought.In post 170, wavemode wrote:toog roden greeting megaz catscratch I'm leaning town
momo's 107 feels like TMI. why are you trying to sort within the wagon unless you know toog is town-
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Personally though, I'm waiting to see what they do with looking into that wagon at the moment.In post 184, Vanderscamp wrote:
I disagree on no one being sus!In post 182, MathBlade wrote:There’s no one being sus though?
So inactive/doesn’t want to contribute is a pretty good elim.
There’s stuff I disagree with but nothing inherently scummy except Toog’s refusal to post a read.
I don’t see that from momo’s post. It just seems like they said they’d look at the Toog wagon start of day and I would do so whatever Toog’s alignment. (To be clear I think Toog is scum).
IMO the wagon on Toog is nothing more than a random collection of meaningless RVS votes and I think it was very weak for Momo to say that solving that should be the immediate objective.-
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Also this mind melds with me fairly well. Fine with putting them as a townlean for now (I’m at the point of paranoia of hard town reading the wrong person again, it happens too often).In post 181, Vanderscamp wrote:
If we're robots, I agree, but I actively disliked what Momo had to say, the take sounded like the kind of analysis scum feels like they need to provide to seem like they're hunting, but I didn't like the conclusion from it and I didn't get the impression that there was any actual town solving behind it rather than just saying things.In post 178, MathBlade wrote:
I am going to bat for momo because of my initial townread of momo and the logic for the momo wagon I disagree with.In post 177, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
I feel like 121 pretty clearly explained why Meg's voting for momo, and why are you going to bat for momo? Do you townread him?In post 128, MathBlade wrote:
Not liking this vote from Meg.In post 122, MegAzumarill wrote:
EBWOPIn post 121, MegAzumarill wrote:VOTE: Momo
First serious wagon of the game should be here
Only 3 posts so far (which is NAI) but 1 is an rvs vote, 1 gives lamist vibes, and the other feels like poor logic because it wasn't reasoned out and was just wanting to look solvey.
Nagl when Jackson Virgo has less posts and just an RVS vote.
So why momo over JV?
I think someone not posting reads is a better elim than someone who is.
I would rather kill people who I think are posting actively suspicious analysis than people who are posting no analysis.
Why bother looking at analysis at all if we are just going to provide a blanket pass for anyone who is doing it?-
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Momo's response to all this pressure by simply defending themselves and then saying the wagon is not a real wagon just seems incredibly scummy to me. Not to mention they still haven't really made any attempt to do any reading or prodding around the Toogaloo wagon that drops this further.In post 268, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:Strange, you haven't commented on either of the major wagons. Penny for your thoughts?
Toogeloo I'm really not sure how to think about it since I don't fully understand where Dwlee is coming from with their Toogeloo push (I read their ISO and its a lot of pushing on Toogeloo with very little explanation) whereas with Mathblade with the logic of active lurking which is a lot more understandable how they came to that conclusion looking at Togeloo's posts.-
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For you, Greeting, it's more intuition and gut from reading your posts (That I really don't agree with the logic but still seems townie but with the wrong reasons) that make me think this way, but for Malakittens it should be fairly obvious why I think they might be biased here and are tunneling you.-
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First of all, I already said there were parts of your argument that I don't agree with, and second, it's an observation that I see and added what I thought about it.In post 408, Greeting wrote:
I was questioning the wording you used - namely "tunnelling". Because I don't see myself tunnelled overIn post 406, StrangeMatter wrote:For you, Greeting, it's more intuition and gut from reading your posts (That I really don't agree with the logic but still seems townie but with the wrong reasons) that make me think this way, but for Malakittens it should be fairly obvious why I think they might be biased here and are tunneling you.Malakittens. Am I sure if they are scum? No, I'm not. I do feel like I've judged the arguments for and against and the conclusion to which I got just points toMalakittensmore likely being scum than not as indicated by their behavior. Also, I didn't get the feeling that they are tunnelled over me, butMalakittenswould need to weigh in on this themselves.
My issue with this take is - it is just so easy to write off my lengthy argument againstMalakittensand their past "suspicions" of me as two tunnelled townies and not delve into it deeper. That's how it certainly looks from a lazy viewpoint and hence why I asked you those questions.
Which to me absolutely seemed like two townies who weren't going to look elsewhere for anything and continue to push each other for a good majority of the game.-
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I don't agree that contradictions are inherently scum indicative from experience when in several games I've seen more often town flipping on their views (One of which was a game where I spectated a newbie game where you and Cape90 in that game seemingly to me did a 180 onto Dunnstral) to know entirely from experience it's more common that scum chooses to have smooth arguments and have some excuse to switch to something. Although I don't understand quite understand, and I want you to walk me through the thought process here, how does this correlate with being a contradiction of their confidence?In post 396, Greeting wrote:
That's one interpretation of what happened. Another interpretation that I believe is that someone uses this as a pre-emptive argument to excuse themselves out of suspicion.In post 376, JacksonVirgo wrote:
Its more complicated than just keeping it to yourself. As keeping it to yourself can also lead to it being used against youIn post 375, Greeting wrote:
I'm sorry, you brought it up?In post 359, Malakittens wrote:Ok you don’t know me greeting and I can promise you I don’t use mental health to toy with peoples feeling. I have lost s/o due to spiraling into depression. I have also lost friends and a job due to it as well.
So please let me know when you walk a week in my shoes and then tell me I shit on mental health when majorly of people in my field suffer mental health issues secondary to try to help others.
Either way im done with this conversation.
The moment you bring up your real life insecurities and issues they become part of the game. If you don't want people to use them against you then keep them to yourself. I'm not sorry for playing towards my winning goal, and in case you're wondering what it is, that's looking for liars and manipulators, which also includes emotional blackmailers.
1. If someone speaks of their newfound confidence and then does stuff that contradicts this confidence, the most logical conclusion is that have been manufacturing content and lying. And, you know, when you claim that someone is 100% scum and then vote someone else toIt starts making sense from a scum point of view: miseliminating a townie and doing it paving the way for oneself to miseliminate another townie Day 2. The momo wagon was, in my opinion, a pressure wagon gone very wrong towards the end with the specific aim of targeting me for it later. Twilight of Day 1 was when my suspicion of Malakittens started to enhance when they got super erratic with their behavior and went on to hammer a townie (I know that it was MathBlade who did this, but Malakittens paved the way for him to do it).supposedlymake a point that just doesn't prove one's confidence in my eyes.
Malakittens claims that they had their first suspicion on me far earlier than when the first vote was cast. While it isn't immediately clear when it was, the first post where they indicated some sort of displeasure with my content was 215. They present my case as an OMGUS vote which it isn't. While their case on me is obviously wrong, I did not suspect them for having doubts about my alignment, which were crumbed (but not glaringly obvious to me) up until 287. The case did havesomemerit in the fact that I did not post a lot of content for most of Day 1. I have certainly hinted why and that was because I thought the majority of Day 1 was uneventful and boring. People went after MathBlade most of the time, whom I was townreading at the time. Nothing else was happening, many players weren't posting at all. That's it.
What matters in this game is behavior and not one's character. I have made points relating to behavior and received a counterattack in which I have been blamed for attacking one's character with Malakittens providing very personal reasoning. That's inexcusable and, objectively speaking, scum indicative. In the context of a mafia game, I am actually reading this as a poor attempt to stop me from reading the slot. It's not even "oh my god, you suck for this post", but "how DARE you attack my mental health" (referencing both 349 and 359). Town wants to solve the game. Scum wants to manipulate town against solving the game. Emotionally blackmailing another player into not investigating a potential scum slip, giving a real-life based reasoning, is a very anti-town thing to do.
Playstyles vary, but scum interests are always the same. And Malakittens' behavior does not indicate a game-solving mindset.
And that is why, in my opinion, the kitty needs to go. Not because they had some issues. But because what they claim doesn't align with their behavior and when pressed about it they get aggressive and manipulative.
Not going to say much on the other main part here since it is manipulative if they aren't lying about that, which is true but nobody here can really say if it's true or not (and probably shouldn't be pursued further since I think their reaction can absolutely be genuine).-
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What I see as scum interests are often that from a checklist (though they won't always do everything on this list) they:
1. Fool town into believing they are town, or just don't get eliminated.
2. Make plays towards their win condition through any means necessary (such as setting town up to vote the wrong person).
3. Pretend to scumhunt (though entirely dependent on player skill to know who can pretend to do that or not).
And there are many more that I could list but I really don't want to because I think I'd be here all day listing every tiny play ever.-
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I'm trying to recall, what game are you talking about? I've had multiple games where people have roles that just don't make sense together, and some of which actually did exist together and it was townsided. Personally, with this claim, I don't feel like it makes sense to be fake though I'm far less certain I'm fine with leaving them alive for today even if it is just a fake.In post 451, Malakittens wrote:Hate to say it, but I’m glad if that role is real
That I didn’t get it. SM would automatically think it was a fake claim since the last time I rolled scum and played against SM it’s similar to what I claimed lmao (just not the vig part)-
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Alright, that makes sense. However what sticks out to me and something I noted throughout all this is...I noted from looking through ISO as well is that you really didn't poke or prod into that much, just kind of accused. Which is odd in a scummy way (but I still think both of you are town) that just jumped onto something you find scummy for it.In post 464, Greeting wrote: I dropped the use of usernames for the purpose of this post only to make it simpler.
The way x posted made me believe that they're very certain that y is scum. If x says that y is almost certainly scum, then why would they switch to a second wagon, which was a pressure wagon and not focus on drumming up players to eliminate y instead? If x sees y as scum and x is town then it is most reasonable for to x believe that by voting to eliminate y they are acting in the interest of town. And not instead just jump on someone else.
Miseliminating any townie is objectively anti-town play. However, it happens in every game and I don't know a single player who has never voted out a townie while being town themselves. It happens not because every single townie who miseliminates scum wants their team to fail, but because theythinkthat person was scum. So in their minds they see it as pro-town play. As for x, my opinion is that it's anti-town play in both objective and most importantly, subjective way. If someone acts in a way that doesn't align with their stated beliefs and their actions result in the worsening of town's chances to win the game then it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the viewpoint could really be coming from scum.
Of course, there is a town explanation for this and it's that it's just they had bad reads and a bad impulse which led to a bad fuckup. But I see this as possibly coming from a scum point of view and hence why my vote is where it is.-
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And what I mean is odd about it is that you didn't really prod around Malakittens with your read, which to me indicates at the minimum a fairly strong reason to point if you are right or not about solving a person's alignment.In post 467, StrangeMatter wrote:
Alright, that makes sense. However what sticks out to me and something I noted throughout all this is...I noted from looking through ISO as well is that you really didn't poke or prod into that much, just kind of accused. Which is odd in a scummy way (but I still think both of you are town) that just jumped onto something you find scummy for it.In post 464, Greeting wrote: I dropped the use of usernames for the purpose of this post only to make it simpler.
The way x posted made me believe that they're very certain that y is scum. If x says that y is almost certainly scum, then why would they switch to a second wagon, which was a pressure wagon and not focus on drumming up players to eliminate y instead? If x sees y as scum and x is town then it is most reasonable for to x believe that by voting to eliminate y they are acting in the interest of town. And not instead just jump on someone else.
Miseliminating any townie is objectively anti-town play. However, it happens in every game and I don't know a single player who has never voted out a townie while being town themselves. It happens not because every single townie who miseliminates scum wants their team to fail, but because theythinkthat person was scum. So in their minds they see it as pro-town play. As for x, my opinion is that it's anti-town play in both objective and most importantly, subjective way. If someone acts in a way that doesn't align with their stated beliefs and their actions result in the worsening of town's chances to win the game then it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the viewpoint could really be coming from scum.
Of course, there is a town explanation for this and it's that it's just they had bad reads and a bad impulse which led to a bad fuckup. But I see this as possibly coming from a scum point of view and hence why my vote is where it is.-
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Oh right. But in that game, there was more than one thing that pointed out that would've made it likely fake (including the fact that I was also poisoned and you said you were poisoned while "protecting" me and I was poisoned) which was a fairly obvious gambit.In post 481, Malakittens wrote:Sm I was part of the rogue hydra in cabd/ffery game
This case with MathBlade is a very different scenario from what happened in that game.-
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Speaking of slots that I've played with though. Dwlee in this game is just completely different from how they've played with me in the past and I really don't know how to think about this slot, knowing he has a generally strong scumgame (and have also seen a small part of his town game) but here he just doesn't seem to be doing anything of what I'd expect. So I'm gonna leave this as null for now but like the other slots, I want more out of this.-
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Okay...so why do you think it's probably Greeting?In post 484, MegAzumarill wrote:
time for mafia has been space but I do think there's 2 scum at least on momo wagon.In post 474, StrangeMatter wrote:VOTE: MegAzumarill
Need you, CSF, and wavemode to start talking and being a part of the discussion since I know people were waiting on what Mathblade did and haven't really said much. Do you have any thoughts? Anything you think worth noting that you might want to bring up?
Probably Greeting + ???? but Still need to check if I'm recalling it correctly-
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Also, I'd like for you to expand on fake participation scumlean.In post 511, wavemode wrote:In post 394, StrangeMatter wrote:Can you expand on these thoughts?
I'll focus on the scum leansIn post 398, Greeting wrote:What makes Dwlee99 scum? Tbh I'd like you to expand on all of those reads.
strangematter I feel like has mostly not taken hard stances this game. just lots of "i agree with that" and "I disagree with that". it feels like fake participation
dwlee hopped on toog for some reason like "he is not even making an attempt at being game advancing" which, idk feels like a very shallow read. that is, both the notion that toog has done nothing to advance the game, and the notion that, if he hasn't, that means he is scum. both notions feel shallow. yet he's remained tunneled on toog and noone else since the beginning. idk if this is really the kind of play I expect from town!lee
math apparently is some kind of delayed vig? but yeah d1 I was leaning scum on him because his reasoning makes no sense to me this game yet he sort of was trying to, like, bully people into just accepting it? did not feel town motivated-
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I have been scumhunting, mostly through asking questions to slots that I feel need to try to figure out the most. I'm bad at actually putting them down onto paper but saying I haven't been trying at the minimum is not true in the slightest.In post 530, wavemode wrote:
expand on it how? seems self explanatory to me. your posts seem like they could be coming from scum who wants to fencesit and not take any hard stances. so instead you fill your ISO with agreements and mechanical discussions and meta discussions but no actual scumhunting. aka fake participationIn post 516, StrangeMatter wrote:Also, I'd like for you to expand on fake participation scumlean.
basically, what mala was accusing greeting of doing, it feels like you're the one actually doing it-
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Idk this is a bit of a trend with this game from what I'm seeing at the moment and I hate repeating myself too much, but I need you to explain this a lot further. What makes your point that it is scum utilizing momentum?In post 487, MegAzumarill wrote:I was thinking of Vanderscamp and wavemode.
Both reek of scum utilizing the momentum, but wavemodes seems less likely to come from town VOTE: Wavemode-
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Going to put my two cents but I just get the feeling you made up those reads on the spot I don't really have any evidence to describe why just from my gut just that's what I felt from reading that list.In post 558, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
Have no reads? That’s just straight up untrue. It’s true that I have no confident reads, but I think anyone who does at this point in the game is just very confident by nature or lying.In post 499, JacksonVirgo wrote:VOTE: Cat scratch nah this is scum. Voting a LHF, has no reads and then puts a retraction/safety net notice when they voted so they can get oit of a town flip easier.
I still dont like Greeting but I thini thats just their personality-
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Scratch that, I'm thinking of the wrong person, but it was someone's reads that just kind of felt like that in my experience that you just kind of make quickly on the dime.In post 577, StrangeMatter wrote:
Going to put my two cents but I just get the feeling you made up those reads on the spot I don't really have any evidence to describe why just from my gut just that's what I felt from reading that list.In post 558, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
Have no reads? That’s just straight up untrue. It’s true that I have no confident reads, but I think anyone who does at this point in the game is just very confident by nature or lying.In post 499, JacksonVirgo wrote:VOTE: Cat scratch nah this is scum. Voting a LHF, has no reads and then puts a retraction/safety net notice when they voted so they can get oit of a town flip easier.
I still dont like Greeting but I thini thats just their personality-
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Well, it's mostly the scumleans they have which I find are odd reasons that just gives the impression of "I need to have scumleans in my reads list." over thinking, "These people are leaning towards being scum to me." is a really odd and their reasons don't feel very fleshed out to say how they could be scummy or be an actual read.-
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EBWOP.In post 586, StrangeMatter wrote:Well, it's mostly the scumleans they have which I find are odd reasons that just gives the impression of "I need to have scumleans in my reads list." over thinking, "These people are leaning towards being scum to me." is really odd and their reasons don't feel very fleshed out to say how they could be scummy or be an actual read.-
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I already highlighted which reasons weren't fleshed out, which were the scumleans that you put down making sense to me as someone who made things up on the spot.In post 616, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
Which reasons didn't feel fleshed out?In post 586, StrangeMatter wrote:Well, it's mostly the scumleans they have which I find are odd reasons that just gives the impression of "I need to have scumleans in my reads list." over thinking, "These people are leaning towards being scum to me." is a really odd and their reasons don't feel very fleshed out to say how they could be scummy or be an actual read.-
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I'm not sure what else to really explain it at this point other than what I've said. I'm still reading them them as scummy from what I've already said.In post 637, wavemode wrote:you stated CSF had no scumreads. but her list was a ranking, hence the names at the bottom were the scumreads
then you got into a pointless argument about the semantics of "scumlean" vs "scumread"
help me out, what am I missing. like, if your argument is that she is not strongly confident in her scumreads, then you should probably also be scumreading half the players in this game. so why are you not
Though your reaction and defense makes me like one of [CSF, Wavemode] flipping here.-
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In post 646, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
I was asking more which reasons do you think weren't real or fleshed out, because this is very vague? And by not fleshed out, do you mean to say that they were underexplained or did you feel that the reasons were flimsy and/or not scum indicative?In post 621, StrangeMatter wrote:
I already highlighted which reasons weren't fleshed out, which were the scumleans that you put down making sense to me as someone who made things up on the spot.In post 616, Cat Scratch Fever wrote:
Which reasons didn't feel fleshed out?In post 586, StrangeMatter wrote:Well, it's mostly the scumleans they have which I find are odd reasons that just gives the impression of "I need to have scumleans in my reads list." over thinking, "These people are leaning towards being scum to me." is a really odd and their reasons don't feel very fleshed out to say how they could be scummy or be an actual read.
@CSF. These feel flimsy logic, especially your scumlean on Dwlee, which really wasn't explained or really to me feels very scum indicative, especially looking through Dwlee's ISO. I don't disagree with the logic behind your Greetings read (and I'm thinking is potentially less likely to be made up), though it is definitely underexplained and not looked into after that makes me a think it might have just been made up.In post 493, Cat Scratch Fever wrote: Dwlee - scumreads toog and that's kind of it --->nullscum
Greeting - they seem to be pushing people for doing weird/bizarre things that are anti-town while ignoring the town things about them --->nullscum-
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I'm not but, why are you asking this?In post 688, wavemode wrote:is anyone here townreading dwlee? and if so why-
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EBWOP,In post 720, StrangeMatter wrote:Toogeloo/CSF/Wavemode/JV
Mostly associations but I want these one of these slots flipped to help solve.-
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We really need to eliminate someone soon. I don't feel like risking it on claimed PR even if the alignment has yet to be determined, so I'd prefer not to be eliminating that slot (though it's entirely possible Mafmen is faking parts of their role, I've seen way too many suspicions of a PR go extremely poorly to let that slide).-
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