Mini #704: Hunchback of Notre Dame, Game Over

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Hi everyone. Just checking in. I fleetingly followed the game while I was a replacement but haven't given it a good read yet. Hoep to find some time tomorrow.

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I don't like the CR-hate.
Machiavellian-Mafia:

I also see a contradiction in your second statement. Earlier you said "As I think there is adequate pressure on Ramus right now, I'm not going to vote him", which suggests that Ramus is your primary interest. Then in the post above you flip flop and say that the Ramus-defenders are your primary interests and Ramus is secondary.

I don't see these implication. How did this comment of the wagon tell you that CR was more interested in Ramus than he was of ortolan, the player he

voted

for? Where is the contradiction?

The fact that you recognize the scumminess and the potential jump on the wagon means you had significant interest in Ramus. So it seemed to me like you were trying to have it both ways by addressing Ramus while not creating a clear link with him.

I'm confused by this quote. Why is it important to your vote that CR had significant interest in Ramus and what sort of a link are you saying he was trying to avoid?

I really didn't like Batt's "pressure" vote for CR either (Post 82). Pressure on Ramus made sense as he was being evasive, but CR was already talking. I saw no benefit in adding a vote for the sake of "pressure" at this point. Batt's explanation of why he found the "adequate pressure" remark scummy wasn't convincing either:

To me, I feel that he was just saying "Yah, Ramus is scummy, but I don't want to place a vote on Ramus because Ramus is feeling pressured." I believe he was coming up with a reason to NOT vote Ramus. The scum reasons I can see are that CR may not want to vote his partner OR CR didn't want to appear scummy by jumping on a bandwagon to just add pressure OR wants to stay away from a growing bandwagon in case it comes to fruitation and Ramus is revealed as town.

How do you think CW-town should have reacted to the Ramus wagon?


I think there is/are scum on the CR wagon. I think Batt may fit the description. I'd vote for Batt right now, but Caboose is on his wagon already.

There might be some people out there (ClockworkRuse for example) that might deserve my vote more than you. I'm still trying to determine that.

Have you made your mind up yet?

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I don't see a contradiction, or at the least, anything worth the wagon that's grown on CR.

MM, again, what sort of link would CR have been trying to avoid making with Ramus?

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Was this game always this inactive?

Mod:

Is MiteyMouse due for a prod?

Vote: Battousai

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I'm using MM for Mach. I'll call you Mouse.

ThAd, why is your vote still on me? I've seen you posting, but I have no idea of who you find suspicious.

Mizzy, I don't think your vote on Ramus is doing much. Last I remember, it's on him more for being snide than anything scummy he's done. Your first gripe with him, and it was a good one, was that he was being evasive. He's since answered for his early play so far as I can tell. So, why is your vote still on him?

Similar questions to Mouse and ortolan. Your votes are still apparently random. We're well past the stage of the game were votes can only be placed trivially.

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Eh. Do you realise you just put CR at L-2? Would you be comfortable lynching CR right now? Aren't you concerned that the day's only lasted 6 pages? Who else do you suspect?

And what do you mean by "voting-by-proxy"?

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ortolan, who else do you suspect?

Because a) it's for him being emotional, unhelpful, and scummy, not just for being snide, and b) no, he never fully answered everything and when he did answer at all it was because of pressure to answer

I don't think getting emotional is a reason to suspect a player. Yes, he was unhelpful, but you'll have to elaborate on b) and point to which questions he didn't answer as well as explaining why you don't seem to accept his explanations in light of his changed playstyle. Including "scummy" in that list is a bit of a cop-out.

c) there's no better place for it in my mind at the moment.

The point I'm making is that your reasons for voting Ramus don't seem stellar and you don't appear to be searching for a better place for your vote despite this. You're not pushing Ramus for further clarity. You're just keeping a vote on him. How is this productive?

Battousai, that post was pure lazy. Have you read my posts? See Post 122.

I don't see a contradiction, or at the least, anything worth the wagon that's grown on CR.

MM, again, what sort of link would CR have been trying to avoid making with Ramus?

The link of being, IIRC, the 4th person on the Ramus bandwagon.

When I usually see talk about players making or avoiding links it's usually with other players, not positions on a wagon. What's significant about the 4th vote?

Caboose:

There might be some people out there (ClockworkRuse for example) that might deserve my vote more than you. I'm still trying to determine that.

Have you made your mind up yet?

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Nothing was happening.

What was the point of putting pressure on CR?

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ortolan, your case on CW seems to be based on the "I'm not scum but you think I am so that must mean you're scum" type of OMGUS. Why do you think a player making a weak case is a good enough reason to think they're scum?

Okay, so I really don't think CR is the play today. For the record, I read his "adequate pressure" post as him acknowledging support for the Ramus wagon but feeling like exploring a different discussion. Ramus, by that point, was posting more than single one liner posts, so I can understand why CR might have thought there was "adequate pressure" on him. In my own read of the game, I marked somewhere around that post (52) as a point when Ramus became slightly more useful.

On the other hand, Battousai adding more "pressure" to CR in 82 made no sense. CR was already posting and involved. Like I said before, pressure on Ramus made sense at the start of the game since he was being obtuse. CR's behaviour wasn't like this at all so what was the point of adding a vote on him besides jumping on the popular band-wagon?

I don't see a contradiction, or at the least, anything worth the wagon that's grown on CR.

MM, again, what sort of link would CR have been trying to avoid making with Ramus?

The link of being, IIRC, the 4th person on the Ramus bandwagon.

When I usually see talk about players making or avoiding links it's usually with other players, not positions on a wagon. What's significant about the 4th vote?

What I was saying there is in addition to the link of Ramus-the-player-as-a-whole, there is a more specifically link of the 4th position. I read CR to be afraid of voting CR's comfort.

Am I not communicating my question properly? (<- Honest question)
What would this link mean? CR-scum distancing from Ramus-scum? CR-scum distancing from Ramus-town-mislynch? Why is either of these more likely than the other or simply CR-town making a comment about a wagon he supports but doesn't join? And why bring the 4th vote up?


Caboose, Mouse and uriel are not doing much. I've seen Caboose posting around the site, so I don't know what he's avoiding this game for.

Mod:

Can Caboose, MiteyMouse and urielzyx be prodded?

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ortolan's response to me (and Mizzy, I guess) is... more OMGUS?

Destructer: Pressure votes can do more than just make someone post... Now CR may act differently with x amount of votes than x-1. I also feel there is a good chance CR is scum. I'm just getting the same feeling from him this game as the last game we were in (he was scum, obviously). I didn't really want to say that as a reason of why I feel he is scum since you can't defend yourself from it.

So... how has your vote changed the dynamics of his play?
What have you learnt through your "pressure" vote on him?
"I'm just getting the same feeling" means gut? How is his play similar as a game where he was scum? Do you know that he hasn't played the same as town?
And I don't buy into this whole idea that you can call something a "pressure" vote and it will automatically mean anything. Your vote on CR is doing nothing but increasing the chances of him being lynched, not because it's outing him as scum, but because of cold and impartial game mechanics. You haven't made a case on CR and I see your reasoning - "pressure" - as an excuse to jump onto his wagon.

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I have felt

his arguments against me

since I've been actively voting for him

have been even more horrible than those he made prior

.

Ort, this seems to sum up the nature of your case on CR. So, my question to you was completely legitimate. You haven't explained why someone making poor arguments makes them especially suspicious.

And on your comment on Battousai; while I certainly won't deny the possibility he's scum I don't like how you've been singling in upon him since your very first post of content. He openly conceded that his pressure vote was exactly what it was when he made it. I personally don't think scum would make such an attention-drawing move.

I think Battousai is scum. You're the first player to express a problem with this. Should I be worried?

Regarding him announcing his pressure vote, just saying it is doesn't make it so. I also don't think his was an attention drawing move. I think he jumped in with the rest of the crowd. The fact that the CR-hate grew as quickly as it did and remained unquestioned is what made me sceptical in the first place.

Also; destructor, I am suspicious of how aggressive your approach has been ever since you replaced in. I also dislike your justification for trying to divert suspicion from ClockworkRuse.

Tell me why aggressive play is scummy and I'll consider making a defence on that point. What's to dislike about my attack on the CR wagon?

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So... how has your vote changed the dynamics of his play?

That's like asking what would have happened if you went to the mall instead of the movies. You can only speculate on how he would act.

You've just said that his play is unpredictable. So, if you couldn't know what CR was going to do, how would his reactions to the pressure have been meaningful? That is, what was the point of pressuring CR, again?

What have you learnt through your "pressure" vote on him?

From what has been said, I don't think CR has done anything worth being lynched yet. But maybe being at L-2 he has kept up being active.

You're sending mixed messages here. You don't think CR's done anything lynch-worthy, but you think he's playing like he does as scum. If he's playing like he's scum, shouldn't that be enough to lynch him?

"I'm just getting the same feeling" means gut?

Yes, that's why I haven't really listed it as a reason for the vote, since you can't defend against gut.

...
How is his play similar as a game where he was scum? Do you know that he hasn't played the same as town?

I get the same feeling I had as the game I was in when he was scum.

So... the point here would be for you to

quantify

your gut. You're claiming that your gut is based on CR's meta. If this is your claim, you should be able to back this up and show us where CR has played the same as scum.

You should respond to what I wrote here:

And I don't buy into this whole idea that you can call something a "pressure" vote and it will automatically mean anything. Your vote on CR is doing nothing but increasing the chances of him being lynched, not because it's outing him as scum, but because of cold and impartial game mechanics. You haven't made a case on CR and I see your reasoning - "pressure" - as an excuse to jump onto his wagon.

I still see no merit in your vote. You haven't been scum-hunting. You just jumped on CR's wagon and have been coasting through the day, only posting when I call you out.

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! Last few days were way busier than I expected. I'm just posting to say I'm alive and will post later tonight or tomorrow.

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I would respond to Axel if I knew what his issue with me was.

scumlist:
clockworkruse
battousai
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How do you figure this?

des jumps right in to defend cr, and in post 137 starts trying to scare votes off the cr wagon by raising the specter of, god forbid, a six page day.

?

post 70 from ortolan smells an awful lot like distancing. fos = friend of scum. this also makes cwr's silly ortolan vote make a lot more sense.

[...]

According to the last votecount, he only has 1 vote. It's strange you seem to be at least partially appealing to argument from the majority here.

zing! great point made by ort against cwr. still think he's just distancing/bussing though. its become a real back and forth by this point, but to begin with their attacks on each other were really suspect.

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From what has been said, I don't think CR has done anything worth being lynched yet. But maybe being at L-2 he has kept up being active.

uh huh. batt is distancing cwr, and hoping this wagon falls apart.

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post 209 hey look i was right batt was just distancing cwr and wasn't really willing to go all the way to a bus. throwing an fos at axel for asking for a claim from the guy he was bandwagoning is bupkiss too.

I don't count bussing to be likely in this setup. If Batt and CR are scum together, I see his jump off the CR wagon to have come at the worst time possible. The timing of ort's vote would make more sense as bussing, but the fact that CR voted him in the first place and pushed as hard as he did makes the whole thing less likely.

Could someone please summarize why CR is obvscum?

I don't think anyone is obvscum, here. I am voting CR because he seems most scummy (dodging the Ramus wagon with a clearly invalid excuse, annoucing that he was getting ready to go after attacking someone right when the attention starting mounting on him, etc.)

Did you mean the pressure mounting on CR or Ramus?

@ Mizzy, what were your reasons for staying away from the CR wagon? If you think CR is likely town, do you think scum are on his wagon? What are you thinking about Caboose and Battousai? How about rofl and Axel's posts on replacing in?

Battousai's last few posts (particularly 220) look good. I may have been beating a dead horse.

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I didn't really see a point in CarnCarn's FOS of rofl. His list could only be construed as anti-town at most, since the effect it would have on scum's kill choice is null if rofl was scum anyway. There is no ulterior motive for rofl as scum to have posted a list. If the list helps scum, rofl must be town and so an FOS makes no sense. There was also that IGMEOY at Caboose which seemed useless. I also just noticed that he seemed to jump ship from CR to Caboose after MM posted a case.

Caboose seems useless, but CC is looking like opportunistic scum.

Vote: CarnCarn

I still don't see the merit in the case on CR. I'm surprised that both Axel and rofl voted him on replacing in and makes me wonder if I'm missing something.

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Could you be "wrong" about Batt? Could Caboose be bussing his scum-buddy? And due to this dilemma, you choose to vote for no one.

If that is, in fact, your logic, then I don't like it very much. It's very questionable to refrain from voting player X because player Y is voting for him. And if you think player Y is scummier, then why don't you just vote for player Y? This is being non-committal.

The game seemed to be in early stages of discussion when I replaced in. I was hoping for more to work with, I guess reactions, after my first post.

In post #133, you apparently no longer have problems voting for Batt. It appears, however, that your primary motivation for the vote is general inactivity and a desire to get things moving. You don't make any kind of actual case here or urge others to vote the same way.

Getting things moving is not always a bad reason to vote someone, but the way you did it in that post does not strike me as a vote actually calculated to make something happen. Batt. was not under any serious kind of pressure that I remember at that point.

I dunno. At that point, it seemed that my first post hadn't really done anything and posting was really low. I wasn't sure what else to do to make things happen. And voting Batt

did

get him talking. Maybe check the timestamps to see things in context of the game's pace at the time.

You do a lot of defending of CR, which, as you can imagine, I don't agree with. Right up until recently where you ask yourself if you are missing something because both the most recent replacements have found him suspicious. I find it a little odd that you would post something like that.

I was planning to do a reread of CR and the cases on him immediately after I posted that.
In the meantime, what do you make of my take on CR in Post 162?

About Caboose, he hadn't seemed to have contributed much. 85 didn't help, since it looked like more evidence that CR's wagon wasn't a good one. Batt's vote on CR didn't look good and 85 looked like Caboose was clearing his throat. He went into major lurk mode after I replaced in and his minimal posts aren't incredibly helpful, but I'm not liking CarnCarn right now and he was quick to jump onto Caboose's wagon. (bussing not likely, etc).

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Hi, letting you all know I'm going to have limited access until Dec 14.

I will get another post in before the weekend is over. I feel like I'm kind of losing touch in this game, so if anyone has anything specific they'd like me to comment on or any questions, they're welcome too.

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Hi, letting you all know I'm going to have limited access until Dec 14.

I will get another post in before the weekend is over. I feel like I'm kind of losing touch in this game, so if anyone has anything specific they'd like me to comment on or any questions, they're welcome too.

How do you feel your current vote on CarnCarn? None of the reasons you listed were particularly strong IMO: his FOS on rofl, his IGMEOY on Caboose, and his jump away from CR.

It felt good at the time. I noted that I'm on LA until Sunday, but I'd like to find some time to have a look over everything before deadline (which I assume will be placed soon).

I think CC's FOS and IGMEOY looked like noise/distractions. Neither were appropriate or useful. The IGMEOY was mostly malignant, but looked worse in retrospect when he tried to attach some pro-town spin to the FOS. His reasons for the FOS didn't add up - rofl would only be helping scum if he was town. Even if it was just a theory disagreement, why

suspect

someone over it? That doesn't make sense. Scum are trying to find excuses to suspect people, townies don't need to.

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Here's the explanation you gave for the Axelrod FOS.

I also find Axel mildly suspicious for his "townie" list, especially this early in the game.

I didn't remember that you'd done that. You didn't explain why you found townie lists scummy that time. It sounds like you could have meant that you find townie lists suspicious because they're unnecessary or something. That plus the little of the thread I'd read before my next post probably explain why I didn't call you out on it at the time.

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CR, you should probably claim now. I think the deadline is about 36 hours away.


Mizzy's minimal voting activity is unhelpful. I've seen her be the same with her votes as town before, so I'm inclined to see it as a null-tell in her case, even if I believe it's anti-town.

His next post or posts can stop me from voting him, which is why I am waiting. What he says will directly impact my actions.

What would be the difference between (a) voting him now then unvoting if his next post changes your mind, and (b) waiting for him to post, which he may never do, before deciding what to do? If he never posts, does that mean you won't vote him? If you will, how long do you wait before placing the vote?

You can always remove a vote, so I see no point in waiting to decide when you've already found a reason to vote someone. Yes, this is somewhat consistent with my past experience with you, but I don't see a good reason to hold back on something like this.


rofl, you haven't commented on my own read of CR or my case on CC. Can you do that?
You also say that no lynching would be unforgivable, but won't vote CC to stop one. Which is more important - avoiding a No Lynch or keeping CC alive?
What do you think CC's reasons for FOS'ing you were?

Mod:

Can Caboose and ortolan be prodded? They seem to have disappeared.

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Caboose's lurking (he's definitely posting elsewhere on site) trumps CC's scumminess. The only other votes on CC are from Caboose himself and Thad, for reasons I don't wholly support myself. Nat's play doesn't seem malicious to me so far and I expect it to improve. Caboose hasn't really done anything different all game.

Unvote
Vote: Caboose

That's 3 votes on Caboose. CC is down to 2.

A claim from either CR or Caboose would be good right about now.

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Why am I claiming? Why isn't CarnCarn claiming as well?

Because at the time you were most likely to be lynched at deadline. No one had said they were going to vote for CC while some had said they'd switch to you.


I'm seriously confused right now. Urz has done more in like two days than Caboose did all game. Caboose didn't just lurk, he flaked. I don't have the energy to go and find out if he's ever dropped out of a game like this before so I don't know if it's telling either way. So...

Unvote

I still don't think CR is scum. CC's irrational pointing of fingers still seems like the scummiest thing I can pick up so far this game.

Vote: CarnCarn

I realise I'm now the only person voting him and could switch to... someone to ensure a lynch but I don't feel strongly about anyone but CC right now. Nat's posts weren't great, and even though I didn't feel like he was being insidious, his is the only other lynch I can see myself supporting.

I don't know what to make of the rofl votes. I don't know why he's seemed to ignore pretty much every question I've asked him so far this game either. On entering the game, he named CR, Battousai and myself as scum but never really explained this when I asked. He hasn't answered my recent questions in 354. My case on CC is largely based on the BS attack he made against rofl and that's what's stopped me from probing around here more. He sort of explained himself on CC in 364 but without any reference to the actual case on CC. I understand what he was saying in c), but was expecting a more pragmatic answer.


Also, I'm having a look at the setup rules again and remembered these:

2.) There are nine members of the town. The town will have one [1], two [2], or three [3] of the following roles in any combination: Cop (Sane or Insane), 1-Shot Vigilante, 2-Shot Role-Blocker, Doctor. This means that having three town players with the exact same power role is possible.

...

4.) Deaths will always be revealed as either (a) “Town,” or (b) “Mafia.” The traitor death will always be revealed as “Town.”

I assume that this means there are no role reveals, only alignment. Given that there are at most 3 town power roles I think it's important that anyone who is on the brink of being lynched claim and that a refusal to do so is at the least anti-town. I say it's important that we get claims because it reduces the chances of scum successfully fake-claiming - if more than 3 players claim powers, we can know for a fact that at least one is scum.

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Unvote
Vote: Natirasha

Because I don't know what else to do with my vote.

CR or Batt can make the difference.

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Ya, ort needs to explain his unvote. With no day abilities, I don't see why he would have found a reason to flip on CR at the last minute.

CC, what's your problem with my Nat vote?

As a result of it, CR is looking a whole lot more town, don't you think?

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When I said this:

With no day abilities, I don't see why he would have found a reason to flip on CR at the last minute.

I meant, at the last minute without an explanation.
I'm not sure that flavour is telling of alignment in this game, which makes me wonder how wise ort's actions were, but...

The way Day 1 ended only makes CR look more like town. If he's scum, his play was counter-intuitive. Assuming CR is town, ort's unvote is counter-intuitive as scum - why unvote a player who is town at deadline to lynch another player who is town? I don't think it's really WIFOM, since I didn't see the real or likely benefit it would provide either as scum, unless someone thinks they're both scum and were doing some crazy bussing dance earlier in Day 1.

So, basically, as opposed to not seeing the case on CR, I'm now pretty sure he's town and that scum were on his wagon. The living players who were on his wagon at deadline yesterday are: Urzassedatives, CarnCarn.

I'll do some rereading of Urz and the players who left CR's wagon before deadline, but in the meantime.

Vote: CarnCarn

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Maybe. I tend to think that scum will try to avoid voting with their buddies, so it's possible that they were on both wagons. I already mentioned that I thought scum had been on CR's wagon earlier in day 1 and the way the day ended was an affirmation for me.

For me, Nat was more like a policy vote, the least pro-town lynch candidate, since I wanted my vote to be useful at deadline.

If there were scum on both wagons, I want to start with CR's since there are fewer players alive who were on it, which is a smaller sample size to work with and so easier for my head. I think CC was one of the first on and on it at deadline too. Coupling that with his FOSing rofl (who flipped Town), I'm happy to pick up where I left off yesterday.

Also, Nat might have been the traitor. I wonder if anyone actually said they

didn't

want to vote him...

knowing him he would have just redoubled his efforts against cr today (who seems to be town)

What made you say CR seemed to be town? And to parrot CR's question, why the needless speculation about the nightkill?

Urz, what are your reasons for voting CC?

Mizzy, what do you make of my case on CC?

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In fact I think that might be somewhat scummy trying to get us to focus on only two people.

vote: destructor

I'm using a small sample of players to find bearings and get a better read of the game. I'm interested in everyone who was on it, not just CC and Urz.

Do you have a reason to believe scum

weren't

on CR's wagon?
Do you have a better place to look for scum?

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You have my condolences, Shea. =/ Take as much time as you need.

Furthermore if there was scum on the cr wagon, why kill off one of the only other people on it? It would obviously just make people focus on the remainders?

I don't know if it's obvious. CR wasn't confirmed town at the end of the day. Maybe scum didn't think people would change their mind on him. I don't think it's worth speculating over at this time.

As for a better place to look. Let me put it this way: considering ortolan and clockworkruse as town there basically has to be scum on the natirasha wagon.

The people off Nat's wagon were: CC, Urza, CR, Battousai and ort, at least three of which I'm already leaning town on. So, yeah, I am tending to agree with you on this.

@ destructor: question - do you think it would be a good idea to lynch both people on cr's wagon, one after the other?

Not solely for them being on the wagon. Caboose was kind of useless but Urza seemed townish. It would have been nice to know why he voted CC now, but we won't know that for a while at least. There are other players who were on it too that I wasn't comfortable with, like Battousai, but I felt his play later in Day 1 was very pro-town. I think the people to look at are those with the most spurious reasons for having joined CR's wagon.

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Destructor:

I'm not sold on CC's scumminess. Your case seemed to consist of "CC was voting CR." Why vote one of Urza or CC when they were both doing the same thing and you hadn't yet re-read Urza? Not an attack, that's a real question.

In my answer to ThAdmiral, I mentioned that I wasn't interested in voting people for being on CR's wagon alone. I was voting CC in Day 1 for what I saw as opportunistic play. His FOS of rofl, which made no sense, and his jump onto Caboose when it looked like CR's wagon was coming apart. These are all parts of my case. What do you think of them?

MM, you said you didn't find the reasons I gave for voting CC yesterday very strong. Do you still feel the same way? Do you the conclusions I came to regarding the end of Day 1 are reasonable?

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Also, CR is still on my scummy-list. Not sure why some folks are treating him as more town or as nearly confirmed town just because of ambiguous flavoring in ort's role message (or so he claims). Heck, I'm not sure why ort unvoted based on that.

Why wouldn't CR-scum have voted for Nat?

@ destructor: question - do you think it would be a good idea to lynch both people on cr's wagon, one after the other?

Not solely for them being on the wagon. Caboose was kind of useless but Urza seemed townish. It would have been nice to know why he voted CC now, but we won't know that for a while at least. There are other players who were on it too that I wasn't comfortable with, like Battousai, but I felt his play later in Day 1 was very pro-town. I think the people to look at are those with the most spurious reasons for having joined CR's wagon.

Can you explain what makes you think "Urza seemed townish"? Would you lynch Urza after you lynch me and I flip town, or a vice versa situation (i.e., do you think there was definately scum on the CR wagon?)?

Urza seemd townish mostly because he was contributing and active. Or maybe his activity made me think he was less likely to be scum, or something.

I do think at least one scum was on CR's wagon. I think you are scum.

MM, you said you didn't find the reasons I gave for voting CC yesterday very strong. Do you still feel the same way? Do you the conclusions I came to regarding the end of Day 1 are reasonable?

Yes because I still see the context/circumstances of CC's actions to be reasonable.

But no one, importantly including CC himself, has yet provided an explanation for why he would FOS a player for helping scum choose a nightkill. How is that reasonable, whatever the context or circumstances?

ThAd, I've seen you writing about scum definitely being on Nat's wagon and say MM should look at both Nat's and CR's wagon for a more thorough analysis. Who do you suspect on Nat's wagon? Who do you suspect on CR's wagon?

If you are breadcrumbing that you're a cop and actually have a guilty on me, then your sanity is in question.

Whoa what? What did you expect Urza to say to that?

Post 426:

Don't like this post at all. By saying me or CR could make the difference strikes me as if he's trying to shift the blame for a mislynch onto us (mostly me)because we weren't voting at the time and we COULD have voted to save Nat. His post was also at the end of the day, which I think he could have thought the final vote count would be soon and I wouldn't have gotten on. From this Destructor and CR could be a scum team, or Destructor just prefered a Nat lynch due to their being less information gotten from it.

-5

I haven't blamed anyone for anything. Levelling the vote count meant anything ANYONE did would be more telling. The only people who really had to worry about that were scum.


I have to go now. I'll finish catching up tomorrow.

[destructor]

Mizzy, you never got back to me about the rest of my case on CC. Can you do that now?

@ Everyone

- How many of you have read the setup rules? I see Batt, ort and CR talking about CR being a Miller, but a Miller isn't even a possible role in this setup so I think Batt's reason for being iffy about CR (504) are null.

You say CR seems town and that scum had to be on his wagon and vote one of them with that being your only reason.

This wasn't my only reason and I thought I made that clear. I noted his "noisy" FOS, hop to Caboose when the opportunity arose.

Why wouldn't CR-town vote for Nat? CR-scum could have gotten a traitor vibe or something from Nat - who knows? Sure, I see his not voting Nat as a protown point in his favor, but my question/comment was directed at the people who pointed to ort's claim as evidence for CR being more protown.

For most purposes in this game, there are only two scum who matter. If the two Mafia who know each other die, scum lose, even if the Traitor is alive. If CR was one of them, letting himself get lynched when he could have stayed alive would be terrible play. If he's the Traitor, he would obviously have known that Nat was town. The point here is that scum have WAY more incentive to stay alive than town do.

I had to look back to see who the people who said ort's claim was evidence that CR was town and couldn't find anyone. Who do you think used ort's claim to try and clear CR?

That's not quite what I asked. What I asked was what if I'm not? I take it now that your next lynch suspect would definitely be Urza, even though you have a townish read on him. This is noted for future reference.

I know what you asked. I

didn't

say that Urza would be my next lynch target. I said I think you're scum. It sounds like you're trying to accuse me of setting lynches up or something.

I gave reasons for why I thought it was anti-town play. Then, the general opinion became that it was mostly a theory clash, which I'm OK with, too. What are you missing?

I don't believe

you

ever provided a reason for the FOS. I know what other people said and I asked, "Why FOS over a theory dispute?" The fact is that you were trying to paint rofl as suspicious for something that was only anti-town

if he was town anyway.

I don't see how that makes sense as town.

I expected him to say he was a cop with a guilty on me, because that was what I thought he was suggesting...

What would be the benefit in outing a Cop? I

really

find the assumption that he had a guilty result on you scummy, with or without the overt role fishing.

Regarding the ort-Mizzy drama, I honestly have been finding it hard to follow, but reading Mizzy's 515 sounds like a reasonable request. I assume the last line of ort's last post meant he was agreeing to do this.

[destructor]

As for where I should put my vote next, I think destructor is most suspicious to me for [1]pushing a case which is not at all a scum-tell or indicative of scumminess. Also, insisting "there must be scum on the CR wagon and it has less surviving members so lets lynch 'em" is pretty much derived from [2]tunnel-vision on me, IMO, and [3]reeks of setting up lynches on players (me, Urza) who are probably both town. So,

Vote: destructor

1. Your explanation...

You never considered the Traitor in this setup and how they might communicate with mafia in thread (doing something that helps them figure out who is looking the most town, for example). And you never responded to this post, either, and instead choose to continue your rampage of "CC is scum for FoSing someone doing something he thought was anti-town!"

... is a huge speculative reach. If you are suggesting that

this

is the reason you really FOS'd Axelrod and rofl then why did you say "The problem with that is that it makes deciding NKs for the scum a lot easier if they know who the town thinks is town and who the town is unsure of." This isn't adding up. Why would the Traitor have a better idea of who the town thinks is scummy than the rest of the Mafia? Your comments following your FOS' looked to me like comments about your feelings on town-lists generally and not specifically in relation to this game itself. I really think you're just backtracking here.

2. How can I, as

scum

, get tunnel-visioned?

3. Where have I suggested that I wanted to lynch Urza? I am not prepared to take a position on this yet. I think it's obvious that that was what you were trying to get me to say in your initial question on the topic. I.e., you created an argument against me then tried to get me to act in a way to support it. If you really thought I was trying to set lynches up, why would you have needed to ask me those questions?

CC is pretty obvScum, guys.


I am becoming increasingly confused as to why Mizzy is ignoring my question to her about CC.


And, this is now the only game I'm playing on ms. I won't joining any new ones. In light of this, I will be giving it a thorough reread and basically outing the rest of teh scums. I'm going to be away on the 4th, so you can expect me to post the results of my reread by the 6th at the latest.

[destructor]

desctructor Post #426:

Votes Nat and says "Because I don't know what else to do with my vote." That struck me as odd then and it strikes me as odd now, because it seems very listless and even potentially lazy and I don't really see those as destructor traits.

There was nothing to be gained in keeping my vote on CC. I wasn't going to vote CR, and neither did I want him lynched. I was okay with a Nat lynch. So I voted Nat.

desctructor Post #449:

He seems to be saying he's okay with a Nat mislynch because he was a) the least pro-town and b) could have been the traitor. I can understand a) but b) bothers me.

The Traitor comment was in response to MM's question to me.

desctructor Post #505:

More wishy-washiness and not a lot of real content here. A couple questions, one good point, but the rest is all very unsolid.

I said a number of things in this post. What did you find wishy-washy? What was the good point?

I think the CC case has some merit but it took other people talking about CC in order for me to feel that way. I mostly have a gut feeling forming (which is new, by the way, as of re-reading to do this post) but that's not enough for me to act on.

Is that good gut or bad gut? Leaning town/scum? On CC?


A few of the points you bring up are vague, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say to them. Like the comment about day-time abilities pinging.. something. You also make a special note of aggressiveness without any clear indication of what you think this means. I'm okay with people acting on feelings and gut, but you've used the terms without explaining what it is they're making you think. This makes it hard for me to respond to you.

Also, I assume you missed my latest post (545) at the end of which I said I was going to get a reread done.

I don't deny that I haven't contributed as much as I normally would, which was largely due to how much time I could commit to ms. Since the site was down for the last few days, I wasn't able to finish my reread either. That'll come later today. That said, I'm very comfortable with keeping my vote on CC.

[destructor]

That is my feeling about town lists in general, but, if you think about it, it's a way for the Traitor to communicate with mafia ("hey guys, these are pretty townie looking people, you might want to think about NKing them")

in this game

.

I don't believe that this is what you were thinking when you FOS'd Axelrod and rofl.

3. Where have I suggested that I wanted to lynch Urza? I am not prepared to take a position on this yet. I think it's obvious that that was what you were trying to get me to say in your initial question on the topic. I.e., you created an argument against me then tried to get me to act in a way to support it. If you really thought I was trying to set lynches up, why would you have needed to ask me those questions?

I gave you a chance to clarify what you meant but you choose to just attack me for asking the questions. I pointed out what I felt was a contradiction in what you said (there must be scum on the CR wagon; Urza is town to me, CC is scum; then I asked, what if I'm not? does your initial belief still hold? you choose to just ignore answering that at all, which suggested to me that I was probably on to something about you)

What was there to clarify? I've said since day 1 that I think scum were on CR's wagon. It looked to me like you were trying to get me to

put in stone

something that I couldn't possible know for certain barring an investigation and then use that to accuse me of setting lynches up.

CC is pretty obvScum, guys.

For what, again? You didn't answer the question from my previous post, asking what I've done makes me scum.
If you're talking about the FoSing stuff, that's pure BS and I think everyone sees that. It's clearly a way for cross-communication, which I, as scum, would have no need to speak up about and discourage as I've done.

You're play makes me think you're more likely to be scum than town. I don't believe you're being sincere about the FOSes and that your explanation for them is contrived. I think a townie would have been more likely to say, "Yes, you're right, FOSing them makes no sense." Instead, you've backtracked and tried to justify yourself. You wagon-hopped yesterday. You assumed that Urza had a guilty on you. You tried to set me up. I conclude that you are most likely to be scum.

[destructor]

So, I didn't get that reread done, and to be honest, I don't think I will, at least before the day ends. I think my time will be better spent responding to CC.

Also, without rereading, I have MM and Mizzy down as CC's most likely scum-buddies right now based on MM giving CC a pass for the FOS thing and Mizzy 'missing' my case on him. MM needs to die asap if CC flips scum.

I don't believe that this is what you were thinking when you FOS'd Axelrod and rofl.

Why not? Don't you think it's possible anti-town behavior? I suggested that's what I thought it was quite early. No, I didn't come out and say exactly what I said above, but I FoSed for anti-town behavior. What's contrived about that explanation? Why does FoSing for what I thought was anti-town "make no sense"?

Point by point:
• Anti-town and scummy are not the same thing.
• I can understand and appreciate FOSing someone for doing something anti-town that might allude to scummy intentions.
• So, there is a gap between what is anti-town and what is scummy.
• What you FOSed Axelrod and rofl for did not bridge this gap and your attempt at demonstrating that there was one - that one of them might have been the Traitor trying to help the Mafia choose a night kill - is a humongous reach.
• On top of that, I see no indication that this was even part of your thought process when you made the FOSes in the first place, which implies that you were backtracking when you suggested the Traitor theory.

You assumed that Urza had a guilty on you.

Blatant misrep - I never thought he was a cop. Not much more to say about this one.

?

I expected him to say he was a cop with a guilty on me, because that was what I thought he was suggesting...

You tried to set me up.

I asked you a hypothetical question which you gave a very politically-correct answer. A townie would have responded with more conviction.

Based on what?

And I

didn't

answer your question, so political correctness, whatever it means in this context, doesn't come into the picture. I thought it was obvious that I ignored your question and called you scum instead. I saw were you were going and didn't want to go down that path, but you went there anyway.

I would have to look at your vote changes from Day 1 again to see what you mean. My issue with the vote changes was how they happened rather than when they happened. But really, I'm swayed by the irrational FOSes more than anything.

[destructor]

You spotted that line fine.

The disagreement you've expressed with me over the CC case has been vague and entirely non-specific. I found your initial comment on the case odd because you'd reduced the case to this:

Your case seemed to consist of "CC was voting CR." Why vote one of Urza or CC when they were both doing the same thing and you hadn't yet re-read Urza? Not an attack, that's a real question.

Even more, you make a point to ask a question about it, which tell me that you were apparently interested in an answer. But, you never followed it up even after I posted a response in my very next post. For a number of days you continue to post without a mention of it, despite me noting that I'm still waiting for an answer twice, and only refer to the CC case again on the last page in a way that is vague to the point of basically giving us nothing to work with at all.

And that isn't all. I responded to your last post and you neglected to respond to that but find the time to protest against me linking you to CC. I found that really interesting in light of this:

What I mean, is that CC I think may be a possibility but I really think the wagon there (with the exception of Bat) is a lazyish one. Possibly with some distancing going on.

Firsty, the wagon is lazy, so he might not be scum. But then maybe those scummy people who are pushing it are actually

bussing

CC. That is, a weak defence of CC followed by a mention of

distancing

to cover the base when CC flips scum.

I'm really interested in hearing what it is that made you think that Urza, Batt or I were distancing because I'm really not seeing it.

[destructor]

The deadline is fast approaching.

@ MM, ort and ThAd

- Do you think the people you're voting for are going to get lynched today? We need 4 votes to lynch by deadline, no wagon has reached this and you're the only ones voting on your respective wagons.

@ Axelrod and CR

- You should probably be voting sometime soon...

Mod:

I just noticed that the last vote count was missing ThAd's Axelrod vote.

[destructor]

Skimming, I'm cannot see why there are still votes on me. Mizzy's case was completely vague and CC's... I'm not even sure I know what CC's case on me is. So why have Axelrod and MM said they're leaning towards voting me at deadline?

CC, do you think Mizzy's vote for me makes sense?

Same question to both Axelrod and MM - What is the case on me?


Will respond to the rest next.

[destructor]

I hate the anti-town =/= scum arguments. I really do. And they carry even less merit in this game when there is a townie working with the scum. The point is not that only Traitors can use town lists, but that both scum AND traitor can use them as a way for

cross

-communication.

Anti-town =/= scummy is true, though. I use "scummy" to describe something that is done with the

intention

of harming the town or benefiting scum. Lurking, for example, is almost always anti-town but not necessarily scummy. Repeatedly refusing to hammer a player in Vengeful Mafia, though, is huge on the scummy scale since it almost guarantees that the player refusing to hammer is a Goon and the player at L-1 is the Mafia Godfather.

This was certainly part of my thought process. I said very early that I don't like town lists because the people on them end up dead the next day. That's pretty much the condensed version of my explanation of town lists being possible method of cross-communication.

I don't buy this. Lots of people agree that listing who you think is pro-town is anti-town because it indicates to the scum who is least likely to be mislynched and so guides their kill, which is what I believed you were referring to when you said that those people tend to "end up dead." I still maintain that your cross-communication theory was

not

in your mind when you made the FOSes in the first place and created after the fact.

And really what is so scummy about FoSing Axel and rofl for this anyway? I never voted them, never pushed suspicion on them after the FoSes.

I called you out on it before you ever had a chance to follow it up. This would not a point in your favour anyway. At best, it would only indicate that you realised the argument was weak and decided to drop it.

Basically, the FoSes served their purpose of stopping town lists, which is what I wanted to see happen. You're pushing this absurd FoS theory so hard (and for so long, now), and with no one else agreeing, that I'm beginning to consider that you're just confused at this point, and not actually scum.

This is inconsistent. Now you're adding that the FOS's purpose was to stop town lists? Why didn't you say this earlier? Why FOS for this instead of explaining why they're anti-town?

Regarding the cop thing, I never believed he was a cop because I don't think a cop would have acted the way he did. Therefore he could not have a real guilty on me. He could be making one up, however. Thus, expecting him to say he was a cop with a guilty on me doesn't mean that I actually thought he was a cop.

What? So you thought he was going to fake-claim?

And I didn't answer your question, so political correctness, whatever it means in this context, doesn't come into the picture. I thought it was obvious that I ignored your question and called you scum instead. I saw were you were going and didn't want to go down that path, but you went there anyway.

Well, that

is

the politically-correct response (not answering the question because it's too much of a risk to commit one way or the other). I would expect a townie to be less afraid to say what they actually thought, instead of ignoring the question and calling the questioner scum for asking it. That's just based on standard mafia theory. Scum are more likely to be fencesitting than townies.

Sure on fence-sitting, but why should a pro-town player be expected to commit to something like that, especially if they think they already know who the scum is?

Axelrod's post coming next.

[destructor]

Quick reviews of CC and Destructor have me leaning more towards a Destructor vote at the moment. I really don't like the way he abandoned responsibility for the lynch between Nat. and CR. Basically - here I am going to vote this person which now ties the votes up and I'm going to let everyone else decide who to actually lynch.

I

never

abandoned responsibility for the Nat lynch. My vote was part of the difference that caused Nat to be lynched over CR and I never said otherwise. What makes you think I did?


So, that didn't take as long as I expected... so here's the rest of the thread.

destructor, do you think Mizzy is town/scum? Why?

I think there's a high chance that she is scum with CC for the reasons I outlined in 587. In isolation, I find her vagueness unhelpful and anti-town. Her case on me, for example, is inadequate, which I find unsettling even if she admits that it's not very solid.

I still would most prefer a ThAdmiral lynch, but if I had to choose between destructor and CC at the deadline, it would be destructor since I do not see his continuous case on CC to be very strong.

But you see the case on

me

to be strong? What

is

the case on me?


Finally, CC, if you are town, now is absolutely the time to claim given that you are now the deadline lynch. I fail to see what there is to be gained by pushing the town to a potential deadline vote change scramble.

[destructor]

There was nothing to be gained in keeping my vote on CC. I wasn't going to vote CR, and neither did I want him lynched. I was okay with a Nat lynch. So I voted Nat.

And yet you're bitching about my vote on you when I have basically the same reasons? I don't think there's any place my vote would be more helpful than on you. I'm okay with seeing you lynched, so that's where my vote is. What I didn't like is that you didn't explain this when you voted. You just tossed the vote out there with no reasoning worth a damn.

Yes, I can appreciate voting as you did, and I realise that it's up to me to deal with that, which is what I'm doing. The whole idea that you're okay with

me

being lynched over CC or others in this game is what I'm contesting because I don't believe you have made a reasonable case on me.

You're ignoring the fact that I actually thought CR was town as well. So, Day 1's lynch, in my mind, was between CR-probTown and Nat-neutral. You've been very ambiguous about what your read of CC is, so your analogy only goes so far.

The Traitor comment was in response to MM's question to me.

That doesn't negate my point, really.

You never

made

a point. The original quote:

He seems to be saying he's okay with a Nat mislynch because he was a) the least pro-town and b) could have been the traitor. I can understand a) but b) bothers me.

"b) bothers me", as a statement, has little meaning. I can't address the "bother" because I don't know

why

it bothers you.

I said a number of things in this post. What did you find wishy-washy? What was the good point?

Bolded parts are wishy-washy:

Urza seemd townish mostly because he was contributing and active.

Or maybe

his activity made me think he was less likely to be scum,

or something

.

CC asked me why I thought Urza seemed town. It was a gut call late in Day 1 and I was trying to shed some light on my train of thought at the time. I didn't have much else to say. The second sentence isn't that vague when read in context with the first.
And for reference:

I'm seriously confused right now. Urz has done more in like two days than Caboose did all game.

Is that good gut or bad gut? Leaning town/scum? On CC?

The gut feeling about CC is that CC is reeling, and seems unsure of how to play. There feels like a lot of floundering going on which makes me wonder if CC doesn't quite know how to play his role.

So, does that make CC likely town or scum? Why have you been so vague about this?

As for being unsure how to respond, just ask me things. Ask me for clarification, ask me for explanations.

Everything I refer to here:

A few of the points you bring up are vague, and I'm not sure what I'm supposed to say to them. Like the comment about day-time abilities pinging.. something. You also make a special note of aggressiveness without any clear indication of what you think this means.

1. My mention of Day-time abilities pinged... what?
2. Why did you make a not of my "aggressiveness"?

---

Axelrod:

You are saying, I don't know what to do, so I'm putting this vote here (which creates a tie) and I'm going to let other people make the final decision. That is very much a responsibility absolving post. I'm not saying you ever claimed you didn't vote for Nat. or didn't "want" Nat. lynched. The way you voted was really, really weak though.

My vote was on CC before I changed it to Nat. Why would I vote for Nat as a means of absolving responsibility for the day's lynch if I could have left it on CC, who wasn't going to be lynched, and so have

even less

to do with the day's lynch?

Also, this from earlier today:

Levelling the vote count meant anything ANYONE did would be more telling. The only people who really had to worry about that were scum.

Doing something that would make you look more town isn't something a townie needs to worry about. Results: CR didn't vote for Nat = + town points, ortolan unvoted CR-probTown to see Nat-Town get lynched = - scum points. Basically what I said in Post 441.

---

Battousai:

Destructor: What was your read on Mizzy yesterday, did you post one?

I can't remember if I made a specific post about it, but I had a mild town read of her yesterday based on a few things. First was her early reaction to the Ramus-hate, pointing out that his evasiveness was a greater issue than his self-vote, which I found to be thoughtful and more likely to come from town. Second was meta. I've seen Mizzy play in a few games, always as town and her play seemed not to be much different from what I had seen before, but I did acknowledge that I'd never seen her play as scum.

The reason I ask this is because Mizzy is similarily doing the same thing today as yesterday (defending someone and attacking their attacker); except this time you are Ort and CC is CR. I don't recall you calling out Mizzy for it yesterday, which makes me think you only think Mizzy is scum because its happening to you.

Unless I missed it, Mizzy hasn't explicitly stated that she thinks CC is not scum, or is town, or anything. I pointed out how she had been vague about CC in Post 587. Mizzy's case on me seems to be mostly detached from my case on CC as well.

[destructor]

Korejora, scum have only to fear outing themselves but more likely bussing their buddy by quicklynching since this isn't lylo but a mislynch would put us there, oh yes. But this probably isn't a mislynch.

Vote: Mizzy

[destructor]

I'm trying to work out if massclaim is the best play right now. We'd out any remaining town powers but we'd also be forcing scum to claim

something

. I'm not sure what we stand to realistically gain through it, though. Thinking...

I'm willing to make a case on Mizzy since she makes sense as scum. For a start, why is she voting me? She only responded to some of what I asked her yesterday and seemed to completely ignore other parts. Her vote on me today is sloppy and I don't like that she did it despite what was pending from her case yesterday.

I think Mizzy is scum, but Urza's reaction is surprising for the reasons everyone else has said. Mizzy flipping town doesn't necessarily incriminate ort at all.


Batt, I didn't think your early play was great at all, but I unvoted you after you really upped your contribution. It wasn't your defence against my vote as opposed to your improved contributions that led me to unvote and I think that's completely reasonable. Your later play trumped my issues with your early play.

I was wrong about CC, but I still don't believe his FOSes were sound, or that the explanations he gave us were completely sincere. You didn't seem to have a problem with my case yesterday, so I don't think you should have one with it now.

[destructor]

im conflicted right tnow.

Im thinking if we're going to masscaim it should be when we're actually at lylo.

first benefit of doing it role/vanilla is we get how many powers claim and can know if scum are fake-claiing. If that's al we want to know, then there is no benefit in full claiming besides considering setup balance stuff.

I dont like the idea of finding another explanation for the lack of kill. If both ort and Mizzy were telling the truth, then anothe town power stopped the kill last night and I don't see why we should be forcing them to out themselves, especialy if they're a doc. so not sure why thats being suggested

Still don't like urza's mizzy->ort comment since the setup clearly allows for mtiple roles that can stop kills

[destructor]

Anyone else feeling that this little tiff between Urza and Mizzy is sounding

just

a bit staged?

Eh, this is what I was thinking. Not staged so much as bus-mode. If Urza and Mizzy are scum together and Mizzy flips scum, Urza would have gained a heap of town points. Mizzy has apparently resigned to the fact that she's the lynch and named Urza as a top suspect, which caught my attention since she's voting me but didn't even name me in her top three.

Batt, unless I missed it, I'm not seeing the merit in naming who everyone finds most pro-town and I'm confused as to why so many people did.

ThAd, what has Urza's done to look the most town?

[destructor]

I think accusations of bussing are usually lame if they're in Day 1 or something, but in possible end-game situations they're much more reasonable. Mizzy was at L-2 before ort unvoted and Kore was voting her in spirit. I don't know why you're saying that there was a sentiment in the town that Mizzy shouldn't be the lynch. She was pretty much the play from the moment ort claimed. Only Batt suggested another wagon (me) along with Mizzy, obv, and by the time ort switched his vote to you it would have looked completely weird for you to back off.

That's not a case for bussing at all, yeah, I know. But you wrote off other possibilities for the lack of kill, implying that ort MUST be lying if Mizzy flipped town, which is what makes all of the above more likely to be part of a bus. It's like you knew she had been blocked.

[destructor]

I'm a Cop.
N1 - Mafia on CarnCarn. He flipped town - I am Insane (see rule 3).
N2 - Town on Mizzy - She

is

Mafia.

Town:
1 2-shot Roleblocker
1 Doc
1 Insane Cop
6 Vanilla

That's pretty powerful. I would count on the scumteam having a Roleblocker. It's night 2 now and the RB may have used both shots already, in which case I can guarantee another investigation tonight if Batt protects me. Even if I'm blocked, at least we'll know for certain if a scum RB is in this setup.

I thought from the get go that if a Vig was in this setup it'd be scum given that the Mafia could lose by Night 1 if they (not including the Traitor) were lynched and Vig'd, which seemed unreasonably swingy. If Mizzy is a Vig it's entirely possible that her kill was blocked or stopped last night or that Batt stopped her kill in Night 1. On the other hand, she's fake claiming altogether and has successfully outed the town's powers.

Batt, who did you protect N1?

[destructor]

If Mizzy flips town, destructor is scum, lynch tomorrow

(2) he's lying, which will become evident immediately after the Lynch, leading to his own death tomorrow.

Whatever she flips, she is definitely Mafia.

Note that Mizzy's reaction to my claim is not to say that I am lying, but that she

thinks

I'm lying. As town, she could not possibly be anything short of certain about the honesty of my claim.

[destructor]

I don't understand the gambit. A vigilante (which could have even been the traitor) doesn't seem worth a mafia death. Why the suicide?

If there is any possible way destructor is not lying, I don't see it. At all.

If Mizzy hadn't have been the Traitor, this conversation wouldn't even be happening.

Why is it more likely that I'm lying than telling the truth? The argument that there was a lack of motivation for scum to claim Cop at that point is a good one - Mizzy was already going to be lynched and there would be little to be gained by fake-claiming besides scrutiny. I was hesitant about claiming until Batt did, at which point I realised that the best play was to claim immediately.

Or another way, why is it more likely that Mizzy was a Townie and not the Traitor? Her biggest contribution to the game was getting into a spat with ort. She was wishy-washy, said she didn't like to vote until she was "sure" about things, yet called me scum with the vaguest case we saw all game. I also pointed out how her comments about my claim at the end of yesterday were telling of her alignment and how she named ThAd, Urza and MM as scum then backtracked when I mentioned that she was still voting for

me

.

Frankly, I don't see how we let him live here. I did my Maths wrong yesterday (doh), so right now there are 7 of us with still a potential 3 scum. If there are three scum and we miss-lynch, we just lose. If, we got the traitor already, then we don't lose, but we don't know if we got the Traitor until Destructor is dead. If he comes up town, then we got the Traitor. Plus we get the benefit of whatever inspector he got last Night.

So a Destructor Lynch means, worst case, that tomorrow there will be 3 town and 2 scum. That, at first blush, seems easily the safest thing to do.

See above, re: why I would fake-claim and Mizzy revealing that she wasn't Town by saying she

"thought

I was lying. Your plan is total overkill that will put the town into a precarious 3-player end-game in Day 6 as opposed to having 1 scum left tomorrow and the 2 lynches you need to find them without fail.


As for my result:
"Town" on ThAdmiral.
Last scum is Urza or MM, leaning Urza.

Vote: ThAdmiral

[destructor]

I got a "Mafia" result on CarnCarn but he flipped Town, so he couldn't have been the traitor. (Set-up rule 3)

[destructor]

You ought to be too, since you'd be auto NK tonight if you were telling the truth and you would not be getting any more investigations anyway.

Only that I'm all but entirely certain that we'll inevitably win if we lynch ThAd today.
Lynch ThAd -> 6 players (1 scum, 5 town)
NK -> 5 players (1 scum, 4 town)
Proceed to lynch MM and Urza over Days 5 and 6.
Game over! Town wins!

Winning in Day 6 will essentially come down to a coin flip if both Urza and MM are still alive. That is, there's a 50% chance the town loses.

if he's not scum then this game is screwed and town had no chance anyway.

Hi ThAd-scum. If you are town, how could I possibly not be scum?

[destructor]

This still doesn't necessarily clear destructor, and I find it somewhat unlikely that he'd happen to hit scum. Although less useful, I'd feel better about trusting him if he had found a townie.

In my mind, the last two scum could only have been from MM, ThAd and Urza, so I had a 2/3 catching them last night.

And with terrible timing...

Mod:

I'm going to be on LA for about three weeks. I can try to get on once every few days, depending on whether or not I can find free wireless hotspots. heh. If this is a problem, I can help you find a replacement or something. =/

[destructor]

I think it would be cool if we could get some role flavour, and hear Urza's opinion of the situation.

I was just going to suggest this.

I'm Dom Claude Frollo. My flavour says that while I have my flaws, I am not evil and I have a kind heart. I have a lot of scholarly knowledge and this makes me more privileged than most.


I'm seriously confused as to why anyone is thinking that MM's vote or ThAd makes it more likely that he's

my

scum-buddy as opposed to bussing

his

buddy.

I don't get what Urza's doing.

[destructor]

I'm home again for the day. I've found out there's a internet cafe down the road from where I'm staying, so I'll be getting online at least once every two or three days. I think that should give me enough time to respond to whatever is going on here.

I'll be home until tomorrow morning, so I can get another post in before I leave. That's around this time tomorrow. If anyone has anything they want to ask me, now's a good time.

I'm mostly just waiting for you guys to decide what you're going to do.
Any thoughts on my claim? Is ThAd supposed to claim too? Are we going to go for a mass flavour claim?

[destructor]

I read my result wrong on ThAd yesterday. I actually had a "Mafia" on him and got it mixed up along the way. Worst mistake I've ever made in a Mafia game and I expect to be hounded for this for a while. There is basically nothing else I can say.

I investigated MM last night and he's scum. I saw his quick vote on ThAd as really freakin weird given the state we were in. I though it was the likely action of a scumbuddy wanting to distance and quickly, but that obviously can't be true. It seems more likely now that he saw an opportunity to secure a win by taking full advantage of my mistake and ensuring two mislynches - ThAd and then me today. Even if I had been lynched first, the town would have lynched ThAd today given my result. So, in some ways, I'm especially glad I wasn't lynched yesterday, heh.

Urza is the most likely scum-buddy. MM had Caboose/Urza as his suspect for most of the game but never truly did anything to make his lynch likely.

ort's hammer of ThAd was definitely odd and uncharacteristic of his play most of this game, but I still can't see why he would have switched from CR to Nat like he did in Day 1 if he were scum (unless CR/Kore is scum, which is not likely) and that's secured him as town in my mind since early Day 2.

[destructor]

However destructor cannot be telling the truth at this point- as an insane cop he's claimed innocent results (which means they're guilty) on both Mizzy and ThAdmiral, and only one can be the traitor (if either are), which means his claim cannot be true, and he is scum.

To be fair, I

thought

I was telling the truth. lol

Mizzy was definitely the Traitor.


It should be noted that we're in LYLO.

Regarding my mistake and explanation, I'd ask you all to consider in the context of the rest of my play and it's merits.

[destructor]

Pretty sure it's over.

Good game guys. I had a hoot.

I'm interested in seeing the full reveal, but I'm thinking Nat may have been the Traitor. LOL

I was serious about thinking that bussing was like an absolute last resort in this game. I don't see what scum had to gain through bussing besides in end-game, just like ort did.

ort was right, we both thought MM was the Traitor coming into Day 4, which is why I claimed a guilty on ThAd. We thought we'd win with one more mislynch. MM voting him straight away only made me more confident of this, which led to me being real surprised when Day 5 began. haha. I'm not sure if anyone realises how much MM looked like the Traitor. He named me as not being a suspect in Day 2 for reasons that I didn't really see and his method of analysis meant he didn't have to comment on ort either. Then throughout the game, he just kept seeming to side with either ort or I. It was nuts.

We thought a few players might have been the Traitor throughout the game, including CC and even TSQ/Caboose. I personally ruled CC out because he was making a case on me, and I didn't think a Traitor would do that. Same went for Mizzy, I don't see why she'd make cases on ort and I if she were the Traitor.

On Mizzy, she was pretty much right about me. My Day 1 play was shoddy, and I think that's what she picked up on. I was just lucky that she never made a very tangibe or solid case and that I was able to keep her on the back foot.

I'd like to know if rofl followed the game and what he thought of how things went. It was pretty much on my insistence that he was killed night 1, hehe.

[destructor]

I'm cool with our quicktopic being posted.

I was glad that quoting our text wasn't allowed. I figured the less flavour could play a role in the game, the better. Ultimately, I don't think flavour was telling (unless all scum claimed truthfully). It think pj made a point about that in the rules too.

I signed up as a replacement because the setup interested me. I was surprised that more people we're really paying a heap of attention to the details of it, and that led to discussions about roles that didn't exist as well as late realisations that we had alignment reveals only. It was strange that even when I bought it up in thread there was basically no response.

There more I'd like to talk about, but I don't have time right now...

Looking forward to seeing some of pj's commentary.

pj, why did you write scum's rolenames differently in each PM?