Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[veerus]

Hey guys. I've been following the game since about day 3 or so and was hoping I'd be able to replace in as I love chess. So here I am, thanks mod for taking me!

I must say I haven't been too happy with white's play so far and I'll do my best to try and improve that as we enter the middle game. I will review the options and make a move vote tonight.. please don't move until I post again later.

[veerus]

Ok, i've finished re-reading and making notes. Before I post some analysis in the next post, I have a couple of questions for the

mod

.

1) What happens when the game ends in a draw?

2) Rules indicate that if equal # of players/mafia is present, mafia wins. I disagree with his as the town still has a chance to win the chess game. Just wanted to make sure that this was considered...

[veerus]

Ok, here's my analysis up to this point:

1. e4 c5 -- e4 was a good opening as it lends itself to more tactical and open games which in such a move-by-committee setup is significantly better than the closed positions that 1. d4 creates

2. Nc3 Nc6 -- meh.. while Nc3 is less popular, it is also less aggressive and less "sound". There's a reason why Nf3 is the more popular move...

3. f4 e6 -- f4 is a poor move against sicilian as it opens the king for nothing instead of Nf4 to fight for control of the center.

4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 -- more or less forced by the poor choice of 3. f4

6. Qe2 Be7 -- ?? Qe2?? and slow white's development to a screeching hault??

FOS: SensFan

for first suggesting it, though his 7. Qe3 follow-up is decent (but the whole move sequence is wasteful).. 6. Bc4 was best here.

7. Nd5 Nb4 -- ?? why waste a move and attack a piece that's

quadruple(!)

protected without a means to follow up??

FOS: Pesco

for first suggesting it.. You guys should've continued with 7. Qe3 to free up the bishop.. SensFan, why did you abandon this line??

8. Nxb4 cxb4 -- forced

9. d4 Nf6 -- Qe5!! sigh...

Ok so here we are.. not all is lost, though our position is in shambles. The white squared bishop has nowhere to go. The black squared bishop has nowhere to go as well now that 9. d4 took away the fianchetto option. I strongly advise those voting 10. g3 to reconsider. Our own pawn on d4 takes away the effectiveness of the bishop on b2.

So the question is how do we free up our bishops and keep the pressure on the e-file? Simple:

move: 10. Qe5

Here's why:
10. Qe5 attacks the pawn on f5 and keeps the pin on the bishop on e7. After that we can follow up with 11. d5 which frees up the fianchetto option again. Getting the queen out of the way also gives us some options with placement of the white squared bishop and subsequent castling.

10. Qb5 and 10. Qc4 are both wasteful moves. Especially Qb5 since Qe5 is much better becuase it still attacks the f5 pawn and keeps the pin. Qc4 is good if you wanted to force a queen trade (10. Qc4 d5 11. Qb4+ Qd7) but given how active our queen is compared to how immobile black's queen is, we don't want to trade. The time to attack is now.

I must say that whoever ends the day by moving Qc4 without a really good counter to my suggest and finishes off the day should be considered as #1 scum suspect whos lynch should immediately follow.

Also, while I'm at it, here is the list of people who have dominated my notes so far by making the most "bad" suggestions for white:

IH, Gorrad and Pesco.

SensFan deserves special mention for convincing the town to play the restricting 6. Qe2 and then not following up with his own plan of 7. Qe3.

[veerus]

I can't believe I didn't even consider Qe5.

Actually I believe you were the only one to mention it early on.. you just didn't look at it hard enough. Qe5 is obviously not as good as it would've been on the last move when we would've won a pawn (at least), but it is still our best move.

[veerus]

IH, 10...0-0 is followed by 11.Qxf5. That's the point.

6. Qe2 Be7 -- ?? Qe2?? and slow white's development to a screeching hault??

FOS: SensFan

for first suggesting it, though his 7. Qe3 follow-up is decent (but the whole move sequence is wasteful).. 6. Bc4 was best here.

That's complete bullshit. First of all, 51%+ agreed with the move, plan on FoSing them, too? Next, explain exactly what the problem is with pinning the Black Bishop to e7.

I realize that you weren't the only one who voted for the move to happen. My fos is based on the fact that you were the first one to suggest it thus planting the seed for further discussion. That and the subsequent failure to follow up with Qe3 are my only dings against you at the moment. In fact, you didn't even make a case for it, opting to move quickly with Nd5 which, if nothing else, at least planted a seed of doubt in my mind that your original suggestion was geniune. Care to explain what changed your mind?

Anyway, here's why I have a problem with 6. Qe2:
1) it blocked our white squared bishop which hampered development and easy castling
2) the pin did not accomplish

anything

.. in fact, if there's one thing it accomplished is wasted a move for white while "forcing" black to play a natural move that would allow for quicker castling (as evidenced by the current position)
3) it broke one of the cardinal rules of chess -- we brought the queen out too early (read: before our minor pieces are developed) and paid dearly for it in development. Look at the position right now -- black can castle on its next move while it would take us *3* moves to achieve the same. 10. Qe5 allows us to catch up a bit by making one of those 3 moves with tempo.

Also, Pesco, when I looked through the game, I noted when you (and others) suggested poor moves

at that time

thus my comments were not based on the current position.

[veerus]

Oh ok, let's set up scenarios to fit a bad argument. That'll show me!

You still haven't answered why you abandoned Qe3 for an inferior move.

[veerus]

Back onto the move at hand please.

How I'm seeing the Qe5 sequence:

10. Qe5 d6
11. Qb5+ Bd7

From here taking b7 results in black getting the advantage of development in the trades.

If we go

12. Qxb4 Nd5

Move 13 will be irrelevant since black can now call check from both sides of the board. g3 is by far the safest move we can play.

Unmove, Move g3

I'm about | | this close from voting you. I'm still giving you the benefit of the doubt that you're just bad at chess.

Taking on both b7 or b4 would give us a free pawn. After 12. Qxb4 Nd5, there are numerous GREAT replies with Qxb7 being best of the bunch and putting is up 2 pawns.

[veerus]

That was poorly worded. I'm pretty sure you can't use fool's mate to demonstrate that a general rule of playing good chess is wrong... because no one even remotely mediocre is going to play that opening for white.

Fine. What about 1. e4 e5 2. bc4 bc5 3. qh5 Nf6 4. Qxf7#

Not to beat a dead horse, but this also counts as fools mate. Regardless, e4, Bc4, Qf3 (not Qh5) is a valid opening with wild tactical possibilities that I've used effectively in the past. Point is, in this case the opening is designed to to use the queen as a main weapon for quick tactical strikes (primarily the constant mate on f7) and general disarray. In the opening the town has chosen (and most openings in general), the queen is intended to be developed after castling and placing most/all minor pieces into more productive squares (ie.. during the middle game).

[veerus]

Is there a reason that we're choosing to play hyperaggressive? Just in general, almost everyone seems to be in tune with shoving our queen out there without the benefit of careful development.

Yes. Several in fact:
1) We are behind in development, therefore the time for "careful development" has passed.
2) Qc4 leads to a likely queen exchange which will only highlight our lag in development since our queen is the only active piece we have.
3) Qb5 is just a lesser and poorer Qe5.
4) g3,

currently

, would be a wasted move. Generally, the fianchetto is used so we can park a bishop on the g2 square so it oversees the long diagonal. As long as our pawn is on d4, the bishop (and the previous g3) will be wasted.
5) Qe5 is simply the

best

move we have. It attacks an unprotected pawn and it stops black from completing its development for one move while bringing us one more closer to the same objective.

And yes, you're right.. it is scholar's mate.. that name escaped me..

[veerus]

IH.. this is the first highly useful post I've seen you make all game. I did not see 11....d5. The only change in your diagram that I would make is 14. Qb3, but I agree with the rest of the analysis and will have to consider if this position is better than the one resulting from Qc4. From looking at it right now, Qc4 does look better... I'll sleep on it. More to come tomorrow.

[veerus]

Only have a minute.. will post more later, but I'd like to see what others think. The continuation to Qe5 as shown isn't terrible but it is no longer as attractive as I once thought.

And no, Pesco, I'm not backtracking, I just thought black's best option would be to protect the pawn (with g6, d6 or d5) and not castle and then try to equalize as you've demonstrated. We still come away a pawn ahead, but the question now is whether or not that is worth leaving our king open in the middle of the board. The other continuations (g6, d6, d5) do not lead to such active piece play by black.

[veerus]

Ok, I've thought it over and while I still believe that Qe5 is best and leads to more complications, in a game where moves are made by committee with several people self-admittedly not being very good (and two having a hidden agenda), introducing complications may not be the best route.

Therefore, I will vote for simplifying the position by forcing a queen trade.

*chess tag removed*[White Everyone][Black ? and ?]e4 c5 Nc3 Nc6 f4 e6 Nf3 f5 exf5 exf5 Qe2 Be7 Nd5 Nb4 Nxb4 cxb4 d4 Nf6 Qc4 d5 Qb5 Qd7 Qxd7 Bxd7 Bd3*/chess tag removed*

Unmove; move: Qc4

[veerus]

A slight problem with that, black is not 'forced' to play Qd7 at all.

Would could they do instead? Any other move likely loses a pawn.

[veerus]

Which forfeits their castling... I'm ok with that.

[veerus]

No one will show you a tactical reason for why g3 isn't good because

tactically

it's not terrible. However, strategicially, it's awful. We are entering the middle stage of the game with our king in a very vulnerable position. We need to get our king to safety and moving our queen and bishop out of the way should be our priorities to allow for castling..

The only other thing I would support is Bd2 so we can long-castle next move. However I have reservations about that as it still keeps our position cramped.

Why do you want to move g3 so bad? Not only is that pawn NOT under attack, it is also protected by the c1 bishop.

[veerus]

where's our mod? I know he left for a while.. but he said he'd found a replacement.. can we get a vote count and prods?

[veerus]

You keep saying we need to castle and protect the king, and yet you refuse to play a defensive move. If there is anything genuinely wrong with a move in any way, just saying that it's bad without telling why makes you very obvscum.

I thought I explained why g3 is bad? What move are you talking about? And why are you pointing fingers instead of providing counter-analysis?

We need to keep our king safe. That should be our #1 priority since we are already behind on development. That's the definition of being "defensive". And g3 is not defensive.. it's passive.. "filler" as Goat puts it. It protects a pawn that's not under any attack. While still keeping our king in a dangerous situation in the middle of the board. In fact, if we do g3 and black castles, we'll *HAVE* to move our queen next or risk it getting pinned against the king by the rook.

Why not move the queen now and gain some momentum in the process while we still can? To me, we have to move the queen now.. it's just a matter of where. Qe5 looked best (and still does to me) however black castling as a response is not something I expected. It complicates the position though we come away with a pawn. If we can't come to an agreement on a simple strategic decision as getting our king to safety, I can't imagine getting anywhere once the position becomes complicated. Therefore, Qc4+ is best given the circumstances.

[veerus]

buncha stuff in post 376

IH, you've really made a turn for the best. Two great posts in a row. I agree with pretty much everything you said in the post above.

[veerus]

Requesting the replacement mod make their presence known and do a vote/move count. And send some prods.

According to the old mod's post in the mini-theme thread, our replacement mod is

MafiaSSK

. I will PM him.

[veerus]

Probably not a bad idea.. The game really stagnated in the last week or two. I'm in another game that Sensfan is modding and he hasn't been heard from in like a week, so a replacement or two may be in order as well.

[veerus]

....and the verdict is?... I like Qc4, I could live with Qe5 (though it would've likely been my preference if I didn't have to convince half a dozen others every time). Other moves are very poor.

[veerus]

Probably not a bad idea.. The game really stagnated in the last week or two. I'm in another game that Sensfan is modding and he hasn't been heard from in like a week, so a replacement or two may be in order as well.

Oh, of course, replace SensFan. Don't bother prodding him, since Mister veerus obviously knowbs best...

Our mod hadn't been heard from in over a week too so I wasn't really expecting a sudden replacement out of nowhere. :p Wb.

[veerus]

You shouldn't have been expecting a reaplcecement PERIOD. And I was never gone anywhere.

Seriously, its ungrateful assholes like yourself that make me regret putting hours into set-ups.

Dude, chill, it's not like you were posting, so I misspoke and said replacement instead of prod. I didn't mean anything by it. Besides, did I complain about YOUR game? It's a great concept! What's with all the anger?

[veerus]

Screw it. I hope y'all have a plan.

Vote: Qc4

Sadly, this is what happens with long days like this one. People lose interest and decide 'whatever, I just want to see something happen'.

Let's try not to let it get this far next day, people.

Next few moves will likely be semi-forced, so hopefully we'll be able to go through them a bit faster.

[veerus]

move:d5

Our goal this move is to prevent 11. ...d5, which makes our last move worth even less. If black moves 11. d5 b5, then now the queen can move to d4, preserving our ability to develop the bishop. And then black will castle at 12, of course. But I hate to say I told you so.

This makes sense.. sort of. However this would put our pawn on d5 under a lot of pressure from ..b5, Qb3

Another thing to consider is that there is no threat to the queen right now. We should continue with our plan of developing the white-squared bishop.. in this case to either e2 or d3 so we can castle when able. I like Be2 better because if our queen is attacked, we can retreat to d3 and stay near the middle of the board as compared to on the edge of it if we move Bd3, Qb3.

move: Be2

[veerus]

...then what? Black's best response is d6. Our pawn on d5 will be like the living dead after that. We can't reliably protect it and black can snap it off at any time after Bd7.

It also frees up the a7-g1 diagonal (the place where our king will be when we castle) for attacks by the queen or the black squared bishop.

Another potentially dangerous reply by black that I just thought of is Qc7 threatening Bc5 and completely driving us into disarray.

I am also against castling on the queen side. Black's pawns are breathing down our neck on that side and the c-file is open for black to pressure us with rooks.

[veerus]

I don't see the merit of Be2?

It's a continuation move after Qc4. We develop our bishop and castle king-side when possible.

[veerus]

I don't see the merit of Be2?

It's a continuation move after Qc4. We develop our bishop and castle king-side when possible.

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. Be2
*/chess tag removed*
Then what, ...b5 or ...d5 are looming. And the bishop is still not developed until it moves to Bd3 or we move the knight away, or the queen. Maybe it's just because I think too short term, but I still don't see the merit of this move, other than the castling at kingside but that hardly warrants a move if there's no other merit.

A

big

part of why we moved 10. Qc4 is to move our bishop out so we are able to castle. Since our queen is not in any danger, there's absolutely no reason not to continue with our original plan while still delaying black castling. In response to ...b5 or ...d5, we would simply move Qd3 and be able to castle at will after that. Bottom line is that we need to castle to get our king to safety and castling queenside is a suicide due to the open c-file and pawn on b4.

[veerus]

mod: please

prod

Gorrad, Goatrevolt and Sensfan.

[veerus]

No.

[veerus]

It's a bad move.. It moves the queen to the corner of the board where it becomes largely useless.

TCS: I'm not very happy with your right now. You are blatantly disregarding king safety in a key junction of the game. Not only that, you're advocating a move that shuts down the diagonal that stares down into the heart of black's position and makes our last move a complete waste. Especially since Qc4 was not a waste, and since the queen is not under attack, we need to get the king out of the middle of the board before it's too late.

[veerus]

The b4 pawn can be easily protected by a5 or Qb6. However, for the purposes of development, I suppose I could get behind Bd2 as long as we agree that castling queen-side is a BAD BAD idea and the f1 bishop will need to be developed sooner than later.

TCS, you're really tickling my spider sense right now. You propose risky and complicated moves and suicidal castling ideas. You don't want to go over lines because you know they're unneccesarily complicated and unsound. And what's with the draw talk?

[veerus]

Is our queen under attack? -

no

. So why is it bad that our queen is where it is? It's safe with no chance of getting trapped and it's stopping black from castling.

If we move d5, black will answer with d6 and then our pawn will be LOST. Do YOU want to be down a pawn and in an inferior position?.. apparently so, if you're SCUM. And the fact that you're driving so hard at that makes me think that you ARE scum. You voting me for essentially wanting to keep our king SAFE is doubly so.

I know this is an omgus vote, but because you beat me to it by voting me with your next scummy post shouldn't stop me from doing what I wanted to do last post --

vote: TCS

[veerus]

Well, ok, d6 itself wouldn't neccesarily play out right away, but the point is that the pawn would be in no-man's land. For example, the bishop could occupy the d6 square just as easily. Or this:

*chess tag removed*
1. e4 c5
2. Nc3 Nc6
3. f4 e6
4. Nf3 f5
5. exf5 exf5
6. Qe2 Be7
7. Nd5 Nb4
8. Nxb4 cxb4
9. d4 Nf6
10. Qc4 a6
11. d5 b5
12. Qb3 Bb7
*/chess tag removed*
Then how do you save it?

The point is.. black wouldn't let us get the pawn to d6, and on d5, the pawn would block the diagonal to where the king would be if black castled and we wouldn't be able to unblock it. And also, the pawn on d5 would be at the mercy of black after a similar sequence of moves to those shown above. It also opens up the a7-g1 diagonal for black making our castling options on the king-side look as dreary as those on the queen-side. We can not let that pawn go and lose it. If we do, we will forfeit whatever presense we have in the center of the board and lose the game.

It is a fundamental rule of chess that the king is safer when it's castled and not when it's in the middle of the board. The fact that you are trying to suggest everything BUT trying to get the king to safety tells me that you may have alterior motives.

[veerus]

Qd4 is not a legal move nor would it save the d5 pawn.

[veerus]

Goat, 12...d6 fails due to Qxb4. And 12. Qd4 does not prevent us from losing the pawn after 12...Bb7.

Is our king in danger? Is he safer castled? Until a point where our king is in danger, or we need to get that rook in play, castling is unimportant.

Yes, our king is MUCH safer castled. And due to our position beind under-developed, we may not have enough time to get him to safety when the king does come under pressure. But if you want to take that line of reasoning, our queen is not under attack either. Why is there such a push for d5 as a knee-jerk reaction to protect the queen from

future

attacks?

Pesco: Back-rank mates happen when you suck at chess and/or you're not paying attention. The odds of that mate happening in this game are 0 due to its structure. Besides, with the current pawn structure, a back-rank mate isn't even possible since the king can get off the back rank from the square it lands on after the castling.

I'll repeat again -- queenside castling would lead to a fiery doom. It is an open file for black who could put tremendous pressure on the king's position after moves like Qb7 and Rb8.

[veerus]

As I said, I'm ok with Bd2 as long as we don't then castle queen-side.

[veerus]

What does Bd2 do for us? Nothing, does it? Let me dig up a post of mine.

2. A better option is Bd2. It doesn't restrict our queen, (1)develops the other bishop, (2)threatens the b4 pawn, (3)and still allows us to castle, just via queenside. (4)Castling is also going to be more effective, since castling to the kingside would involve also having a bishop at e2, effectively keeping the rooks from getting into the game for a while.

1. How?
2. That's pretty nice indeed, but ...a5 would stop that
3. So does Be2?
4. Not following about the rooks part.

Could we continue this discussion?

1. By not taking up e2 which could be occupied by the queen (don't know why though)
2. That's ok though.. it's still a development move for us.
3. Be2 allows castling king-side which is a much better option
4. When we do castle king-side, there won't be a bishop on c1 instantly conecting the rooks as soon as we castle.

That being said, I'll repeat my earlier sentiment. I am ok with Bd2 if we do NOT castle queenside.

[veerus]

No. I'm not going to vote this move unless there's absolutely no other option.

This isn't a forced sequence.. there are always options.

[veerus]

Without analyzing too much about it: Qd3 then Qb3? Seems like a wasted move making the rest of your analysis flawed.

[veerus]

Your analysis makes Bd2 less appealing than I thought it was.

What about a4? If black chooses to en passant, we will free up some of the congestion on the queen side. If they choose not to, the only way to attack the queen will be d5 which isn't exactly terrible for us. Well, except for making the e4 square inaccessible to white.. Hmm.. not sure I like that.

Another option is c3.

However, anyone wishing to chase after 11. d5, please reconsider. It's a bad move, and believe me when I say that we'll be forced to resort to lynchings to win.

QFT.

[veerus]

As is becoming evident, if we don't castle now, we may not have time to castle later. I still say Be2 is our best option.

[veerus]

Why? The queen will not be under attack, therefore black has no reason to move d5. After such a passive and tempo-giving move, black would be better off continuing development with b5. If we keep mucking around with our queen, the eventual sequence of Bb7-Bd5 will ruin any hopes of winning.

Also, keep in mind, as your move 12 implies, d5 allows us to park a knight on e5 without an easy way to get it off.

[veerus]

People... we cannot plan eight moves ahead. Black can. What move gives us the best position? Stop thinking in terms of plans and start thinking in terms of board position, points of power, and the center... in other words, we need to play hypermodern.

QFT.

And d5 does NOT give us the best position.. so why are you voting for it? I like my vote on you, scum.

[veerus]

Pesco, I'm convinced you're scum. In addition to voting for moves through most of the game without much of a reason, you rarely give analysis and now you have asked for a deadline at a key junction in the game to hurry the town into making the wrong decision. This is about as anti-town as it gets.

unvote; vote: Pesco47

[veerus]

As an aside to the lack of activity in this game, I think it's a design flaw that some sort of chess clock system wasn't implemented to keep the players participating.

I'll agree with you there. I was thinking that too. The game would benefit from a clock, maybe with incremental moves (as in 2 months + 1 week for each move made or something).

[veerus]

Obviously the design is flawed. But it is also first of its kind, so if anyone runs another one (I might at a later date), it would be wise to include a chess clock deadline of sorts to ensure games don't drag.

Now, can we get back to the game? I think all the alternative moves have been shown to be inadequate and still stand by my Be2.

[veerus]

Yeah. black wouldn't castle after d5.. I would answer d5 w/ d6.

[veerus]

It leaves our pawn on a vulnerable (d5) square and closes off the diagonal that allows our queen to peer deep into black's territory.

[veerus]

Yay, fresh blood. Hopefully this will liven up the discussion somewhat.

Ditto d6 as well for me. d5 is just a no-brainer.

Help out a foreigner here: does that mean you think d5 is obviously the best move, or that only noobs would play d5 (and thus it's a bad move)?

To me, he's agreeing with me saying that d5 is a bad move because of d6.

[veerus]

No change from me since my last posts.

Why? It's been shown that Bd2 is inadequate.

[veerus]

...d6 is not a good refutation to d5? what's so good about that for white?

[veerus]

You may be on to something here...

[veerus]

Am I missing something. 11...Qa5 12. b3 allows us to fianchetto our Bishop, and locks in their Queen behind the Pawn.

As much as you people seem to think otherwise, we NEED to devellop our Bishops, then castle AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

12...Nxd5 and we lose the pawn.

I knew there was a reason why d5 was bad (besides the d5 hanging there). Qa5 kills that idea sooner than b5, Bb7...

I still say Be2, then we castle, then we think about our attacking options with the king safe. Sensfan, fianchetto isn't beneficial to us right now. Black diagonal is too clogged up by our own pieces (queen would lose a possible open square with the pawn on b3) and white diagonal would weaken the king-side to the point where castling may no longer be safe.

Also, I think I've seen enough of Pesco's non-commital illogical explanations. In that position, the queen has more than 2 weak squares to land on, and wide open spaces never look like a bad end. Plus we're about equally developed and the position is closer to = instead of -/+. They give us more room to maneuver and make the right tactical decision.

unvote; vote: Pesco47

We are in a bad enough position where no move is a great move and most lead to worse positions. Pretty sure us beginning to lose the game was the agreed point at which we would start lynching.

[veerus]

The position that I referred to as = occured after a sequence of moves shown to be as inferior for black, thus the two bolded parts don't really relate to each other since black is unlikely to make an inferior move.

[veerus]

Qb3 is ineffective and wasteful since our queen isn't under any pressure right now and will have that square to retreat to next move if we so desire.

Bd2 has been shown to lead to a huge advantage for black

Be2 is a safe move that allows us to get our king to safety on the king-side of the board where nothing is really going on.

How are the first two options better than Be2?? I don't understand.

[veerus]

DL is approaching and you've yet to vote for a move... now would be a good time for that.

[veerus]

@ Veerus: Read all of sirdanilot's posts this game and tell me what he's posted.

You haven't answered this yet, Veerus.

yes, i know he's coasting, but unlike you, he's not directly trying to throw the town off of the better moves

[veerus]

Why weren't we doing Bd3 again?

re-read IH's posts from around Dec 28. Black likely gains advantage in freedom over the board while most of our pieces become cramped.

And pesco, if I was scum in this game, I would try to shoot down better moves and promote worse ones (what you're doing). He's a non-factor in the move discussion, which means he's at least not trying to push us down the path of destruction, which at worse is just bad town play, not scummy.

[veerus]

Hm.. both Qb3 and Qd3 leave us in an equally undesirable situation. The following Qb3 follow-up will likely result in an exchange that will open up the board but will leave us a pawn down.. do we really want to do that? Or are those voting for Qb3 not planning on capturing the pawn next move?

>

Current chess board

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qb3 Bb7 13. Bxb4 Bxf3 14. gxf3 Bxb4 15. Qxb4 Nd5 16. Qd6 Qh4

[veerus]

Qd3 can be answered with d5 or g6. Black wouldn't castle.

Also, I didn't realize that in my earlier analysis, but AA is right - we are a pawn up before black gets that pawn back. My reservations about that position is that our king is under pressure from the black knight/queen combo. The position I posted puts us in a real jam after 17...Nxf4 or Qf2 depending on where the king moves. On the other hand, 17. Kd1 kind of neutralizes both of those moves at the cost of locking one of our rooks in the corner for a while which isn't great either... hmm (just thinking out loud here)

I guess the point is that both moves are bleak but there may be some hope for getting out of this jam in a few moves. I'm still torn between Qd3 and Qb3 as both delay black castling for a turn and put pressure on a different pawn. I've played out one possible scenario for Qb3. Still need to examine 12. Qb3 a5.

Also 12. Qd3 followed by g6, d5 and Bb7 (with the threat of Be4 if Qxf5)

[veerus]

EDIT: When I say 'Whoops!', I meant that the analysis for going immediately to Qb3 was in my next post.

erm what?

[veerus]

I personally don't think that black has played poorly thus far.

Goat, while the idea sounds good on paper, I really don't see how we can pick one person to make THE move. At best, I would agree that such a person would be allowed to have a double/tripple vote, but I wouldn't feel comfortable unless that person's move was backed up by at least 2 other people.

[veerus]

i think the people who have been the least vocal in the discussion should give up the vote...

those being sirdanilot, sensfan, pesco, tcs

then after today's move, we re-evaluate if those with more votes are leading us down the right path

speaking of which..

mod: we need a replacement for pesco.. during the last night, he posted in his other games that he had a death in the family and requested replacement

[veerus]

Based on my notes of your (very few) suggestions, I personally don't consider you a stronger player than some of the others who have been active in the discussion..

Plus if you don't feel like arguying about a move, why not further relieve yourself of the responsilibity? By your own argument, it would make sense that you should let your vote be used by someone who actually is willing to discuss possibilities.

[veerus]

LOL, Veerus. What do you think of me, then?

I had my doubts about you at first, but lately your analysis has been solid and often closely followed mine.

[veerus]

Based on my notes of your (very few) suggestions, I personally don't consider you a stronger player than some of the others who have been active in the discussion..

Weren't you one of the people arguing for Be2?

Yes and I still think it was the better move.

[veerus]

My current rating on gameknot is 1690 which is in the 85th percentile. It was as high as 1765 before I timed out on like 6 games in close succession a few months ago.

[veerus]

wait.. what the hell.. we just made a move like a week ago.. what's w/ the sudden deadline??

[veerus]

I think both moves provide a lot of variations within a fairly short span of moves so we need to decide which move is best *right now*. Positionally. From that point of view, I'm leaning toward Qd3 because it keeps our queen centralized and thus more active.

[veerus]

no.. because attacking that pawn is a secondary objective.. the primary objective is to move the queen out of the way into a position where it would be useful.. and technically g6 ruins the pawn structure on the kingside if black castles there

[veerus]

no.. because attacking that pawn is a secondary objective.. the primary objective is to move the queen out of the way into a position where it would be useful.. and technically g6 ruins the pawn structure on the kingside if black castles there

Makes sense, but if g6 indeed ruins their pawn structure (which I'm not sure about but whatever), why not force them to play g6 by playing Qb3?

Because g6 would be likely after

Qd3

not Qb3.

[veerus]

Yeah, I doubt we'll get much more useful analysis beyond what's already been said.

move: Qd3

[veerus]

The move has already been voted on, we're waiting for the mod to end the day and all that.. in fact, i'll go PM him now.

[veerus]

I thought this game had died... MSSK, didn't you get back-up mod access? Just use your own screenname...

--

So do we go on with our initial plan and capture the pawn on f5? If so, how do we deal with the discovered threat after the knight moves?

[veerus]

Qxf5, d5
Qd3

I'm not sure what I was thinking about the discover attack from the knight. I think I was still thinking of a scenario where black had already moved d5.

We MUST take the pawn to have any shot at equality at this point. We will be up a pawn, but down in development. A standard gambit situation. The onus will be on black to deliver. If we defend solidly, we should win the endgame. Basically what AA said.

[veerus]

works for me..

move: Qxf5

[veerus]

move: Qd3

There's no other option, really.

[veerus]

So in the interest of the game, should mafia/town mutually agree to kill/lynch the two people who need replacements? Or does anyone know anyone who likes chess and would be willing to replace?

[veerus]

g6 or Be3....

Is there any other way to stop Nxd2-Rxf4?

[veerus]

16...Bf5 is a tricky move. Makes me want to move 16. Ne5 so we can follow up with Nc6 to either grab another pawn or trade down (a good idea for us since with less pieces our pawn advantage will be more pronounced)

[veerus]

For some reason I have the hunch veerus is mafia. My hunch is usually right, but I'm not going to vote him anyway. Unlike Max I do think we should be playing chess since we aren't hopelessly fighting for a losing cause.

So let me get this straight.. You have a hunch that one of the people who's been doing the bulk of the analysis in this thread is scum? While you, who's barely contributed, is

surely

not. Right?

If this is not a scum trying to start something against one of the more active players, I don't know what is.

vote: sirdanilot

[veerus]

Ne5 leads to a deadlock position. We're a pawn up therefore we need to trade down to make that advantage more pronounced.

[veerus]

Be2 gets too cluttered.. why not leave that space for the queen if needed and play g3 instead? Then we can develop the bishop to g2 if we want.

[veerus]

Ok, looking at it. I'm fine trading away our bishop for their knight. Right now our top priority is safety. We achieve that mainly between development and repositioning our king. Be3 doesn't help us develop, whereas g3 does. I don't like our bishop on e2 as it suffocates our already vulnerable queen so I want to develop it to its right. g3 protects the pawn and moves to develop the f bishop.

Move: g3

Pretty much agrees with what I said. Since sirdanilot is undecided gives me more comfort that he and his scumpartner don't want this move played and all the more reason for me to

move: g3

[veerus]

I like Qb3. It puts pressure on the b4 pawn and allows us to later play c3 to clear up some of the cluster on that side of the board. Plus it also gives us the option to play Bf3 which develops the white squared bishop while prompting another chance at an exchange.

Oh, and,

vote: sirdanilot

. My money's on him not really being useful in this day's discussion except to claim who's scum.. i.e. pretty much to continue what he's been doing most of the game.

[veerus]

I don't see any gains.. it's a passive move that doesn't accomplish anything except to lock our queen in with our own pawns and, theoretically, put it on a collision course with a possible pin in the e-file in a couple moves. In fact, as long as the king isn't castled, I'd like for the queen to stay away from the e-file.

[veerus]

Ah ok now I get it.

Qe3 is better. Unlike what veerus-scum is trying to indoctrinate into our brains, Qb3 is clearly not the best option. It does not put any pressure on any pawn; a simple ...a5 will suffice to lock the queen up. Qe2 puts the queen too far back, meaning Qe3 will get my vote.

move: Qe3

Says the guy who didn't even realize we needed to move the queen in the first place.

move: Qb3

It's really the only option that makes any sense in this position.

[veerus]

my vote is in..

fyi, see sig

[veerus]

I prefer Qb3. It puts pressure on several pawns.

Plus it also gives us the option to play Bf3 which develops the white squared bishop while prompting another chance at an exchange.

I don't get this.

Sorry, I meant Bd3.

[veerus]

Hi guys, I'm back from vacation. Looking over the recent comments, I'm not convinced that Qe3 is the better option.

Qb3 with c3 as the potential follow-up is the best way to simplify the position somewhat.

[veerus]

tick tock tick tock...

[veerus]

who's there?

shrug... i'm starting to get the feeling that players are trying to put a kibosh on this game through severe inactivity

[veerus]

I was hoping black would play this.

move: Kxd2

This gets the king off the back row allowing us to connect the rooks and hides him behind a chain of pawns where he's going to be as safe as he can be for quite some time. Not to mention the fact that the king can protect the c2 pawn if we decide to move the queen back to the middle now that the lack of the knight has somewhat simplified the situation.

[veerus]

-d2 is much safer than e1 and possibly even safer than either of the castle squares
-The knight is in a much better spot at f3 than it would be on d2

QFE

[veerus]

To me, there are no merits to Nxd2 when Kxd2 is available which provides the benefits stated above. Nxd2 takes away a powerful piece from the middle of the board, not to mention that after that, the only square that knight can go to after the capture is right back to f3 which is an unneccesary loss of tempo.

[veerus]

That's impossible with the bishop on d3 blocking the queen.

[veerus]

The a1 rook will be needed on c1 when black moves their rook to c8. My suggestion is to move the queen to e3 which THEN allows for Bd3 (which is a good move.. just not

now

).

[veerus]

c3 = BxN (unless we move the queen now)

[veerus]

i disagree.. needlessly Be2 cramps our position

move: Qe3

[veerus]

Perhaps Wall-E would like to replace some of the less active players here?...

Anyway, to the people voting Re1, what will your response be to ...Rc8? Our best reply to that before was c3 however that is no longer an option.

[veerus]

AA, personally, I can't believe I missed that move. Goat seems to have missed it as well. Perhaps, in hindsight, pointing it out wasn't the best thing but I think that sends some major pro-town vibes. I do think that it's quite scummy of Goat/Lawrence to QUICKLY hammer the move that would hang the bishop ONLY IF black didn't see it. But since it was explained and revealed, the purpose and the element of surprise of Re1 was gone and it was obviously the lesser move at that point.

I personally have some notes of some scummy things that I noticed both Goat & Lawrence do in the past and this just adds to the pile... So,

vote: Lawrencelot

(I have more notes against him)

fos: Goatrevolt

--

Anyway, I still like Qe3.. Bg2 isn't too terrible either..

--

As for rule changes, I think the only thing this game suffers from is extended days with little activity. Here's what I was thinking we should do (and what I would do if I ran a chess mafia game like this). Add time control deadlines with bonuses for making moves quickly. Something like this:
- each day lasts 14 days
- for each move that is made before the deadline, add the # of left-over days to the next day's deadline (so if a move is made in 10 days, next move's deadline is in 18 days)
- max for this roll-over should be somewhere between 20 and 25 days
- mod needs to not forget about the game

[veerus]

Here's why:

So Qe3 looks better than Re1, then.

Since Re1 would DEFINITELY not work due to black knowing the danger behind that move, it was a subpar move compared to Qe3, even by your own admission.

[veerus]

So wait, no one else thinks lawrence/goat look scummy for what they did?....

Bg2 is not a terrible move in my opinion and should be considered with Rg1 as a follow up

However, I like Qe3 best with Bd3 as the follow up.

move: Qe3

[veerus]

ok fine..

before the trap was revealed you were of the opinion that Qe3 is better. And it

is

better UNLESS black doesn't see the trap behind Re1. Therefore once the trap was revealed, Qe3 was the hands on favorite. Here's why:

As I mentioned before, the pin on the knight makes c2 a very WEAK place for white and a very GOOD target for black. Rc8 puts so much pressure on white it's insane. Previous answer of c3 no longer works. In addition, the a5-a4 push for black also threatens putting the queen in the corner where she is totally useless. Rc8, a5-a4 are likely even more potent in a combination.

That's why Qe3 was better than Re1. And you seemed to agree with all that when you voted for Qe3. Until the Re1 trap was revealed and thus nullified. So instead of saying, oh well, we missed it, now Qe3 is DEFINITELY the better move because the only redeeming quality of Re1 (the surprise trap) was gone. But no, you and lawrence help speed-hammer the now completely useless move.

And I've seen you play in other games. You are a very good player. Missing this line of thought seems out of character for you... unless it was on purpose.

In the end, the result of this set white back: we wasted a move while black was able to move its king into complete safety. Now we MUST play Qe3 and then deal with defending the c3 pawn. Another delay will bury us and the extra pawn won't mean a thing.

[veerus]

Looks like AA said everything I would've.. Goat, scenario w/ the King on g8 is significantly better. Black's king is in a vulnerable position and we're about to get rid of their bishop on e4 and blow the position wide open. We have not yet wasted a move by moving Re1 and have plenty of options still.

To answer your question:

Can you say with a straight face that you think black was happy to move Kh8?

Yes, I think they were. Our current position is terrible. Their king is safe while our problems are not solved because we wasted a move while black fortified their position.

As for g5.. I think the proper response would still be Bd3. It'll likely result in us giving the pawn back to black, but that's the price we pay for Goat/Lawrence scum hammer of a terrible move.

[veerus]

Scum are quiet having done their damage. I have already made my vote.

[veerus]

Of course you're interested.. you need to know if we have a great reply that makes g5 a poor continuation for black.. but for the benefit of the rest of the town, i'll oblige:

No, I was not expecting g5 however my reply to it would still be Bd3. g5 is only dangerous if capture the pawn. After Bd3, nearly whatever happens will result in us likely losing the pawn thereby relinquishing our earlier material advantage. For example:
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. gxf4 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Rxf4

Now, if we DIDN'T make the move you brilliantly forced on us, here's what would happen.
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Qe3 g5 19. Bd3 gxf4 20. gxf4 Bxd3 20. Qe6
Which one looks better now?

Not the continuation that you caused.

[veerus]

can we either speed this game up or declare it dead.. it holds up a valuable mini spot which is a nagging inconvenience for everyone involved i'm sure

[veerus]

uh.. IH.. why would you propose sacrificing a rook for a bishop with no clear drawn position in sight?

[veerus]

can we either speed this game up or declare it dead.. it holds up a valuable mini spot which is a nagging inconvenience for everyone involved i'm sure

I can give the game a mass prod, is that fine?

Personally? Unless you massprod weekly, I'd vote to kill the game because it seems we bog down way too often and half the people don't even bother to post anymore.

[veerus]

My analysis and questions still stand. But since

I'm going to be V/LA from 5/25-6/3

I will make a move to help the game move along without me.

Move: Bg2

. Reread my posts this move and last for details.

Bg2 doesn't really do anything... The knight is still pinned and will still be pinned after whatever black do next.

Qe3 gives us an adequate response to g5 and allows us to break the pin on the next move with Be3.

[veerus]

this game is such a ghost town that people can't even bother to post whether they want to abandon it though i suppose in this case silence may speak louder than words

[veerus]

Due to the length of the game, most people simply lost interest. Case in point: we're talking about continuing the game or abandoning it and most people have made their first comment on it in the last few days despite the fact that the issue was first brought up nearly 2 weeks ago.

[veerus]

I'll think about it today. But, if a lynch or a move count has been made then that will overrule or agree with my decision and the game will go to night.

Any deadline related change won't affect things because half the players haven't posted in quite some time. Get them back and then we can get the game back on track.

[veerus]

Just replace SensFan. AA is V/LA until tomorrow and IH seems to be semi-active.

[veerus]

I'll have to re-read the analysis since it's been a while but I seem to remember my Bd3 idea being the best..

[veerus]

And then we lose. No thanks.

The f4 pawn is lost. We need to salvage the game before we lose that too.

[veerus]

Both of those lines are aboslutely ridiculous and completely unrealistic.

[veerus]

doh, on a side note, i deleted all my notes about this game because i thought it was going to be dead i guess i'll have to re-read if this goes down to the wire

[veerus]

prod avoidance

now do the same thing but with a move suggestion

[veerus]

Great. On the bright side, I'm warming up to the idea that you suck too much to be scum. Rejoice.

move: Bd3

[veerus]

Qe2 opens us up to fxg3 which puts unneccesarily dangerous pressure on the knight.

move: gxf4

[veerus]

Our pawn structure will be broken either way.

However,

unmove

. fxg3 may not be as damaging as it first looked. I'll have to examine the possibilities.

[veerus]

No connection unless you suggest some really terrible moves and somehow convince the town to follow you off the cliff (moves 3, 6, 7 for example).

move: Qe2

[veerus]

no question about it..

move: Qxd3

[veerus]

There was no mate in 4. I'd like TCS to prove me wrong but I doubt that'll happen.

g4 is a viable solution however that gives black a passed pawn which I'm not crazy about. I'm thinking Ne5 is better.

[veerus]

nod.. Qxe7 would've returned the pin on the knight which would've sucked.

[veerus]

Why Re6? While it grabs space, it doesn't deal with the fxg3 line that grants black a free passed pawn. And I don't think anyone is seriously arguing for gxf4.

[veerus]

Re6 does seem like the better option despite not being anything special... I really dislike g4 and Ne5 isn't great either though it's better than g4.

[veerus]

So you're ok with a passed pawn and our knight essentially playing the role of a pawn?

[veerus]

@veerus: A knight is techincally speaking the best piece to block a pawn with.

How so? Last I checked a pawn is the only piece to best block another pawn w/o sacrificing the bigger piece's other advantages.

[veerus]

The more I look at it, the more I like Re6.

move: Re6

The other moves will likely still be there later if we choose to make them.

[veerus]

I know too well I've got practically no credibility in terms of analysis, but I just don't see a point to Re6. Whereas g4 I can see leading to a kingside pawn attack, plus it keeps the f-rank from being opened, which also keeps the bishop penned.

I don't want to explore all of the lines, because I'm expecting black to make a mistake in the next couple of moves. That being said, what is your countermove to Re6?

Probably not a good idea to ask for this to be posted at this point. Re6 looks like it'll win the day and there is a pretty decent black response that I'm hoping they overlook tonight.

[veerus]

No deadline yet, but I really don't see how g4 could be better than Re6 at this point.. especially since we can likely make the g4 move later while we likely won't be able to get to e6 later.

[veerus]

or that... should you lower the voting threshhold since we're missing like 3 people?

[veerus]

Ng5 doesn't lead anywhere except a very quick draw. We would probably have more options with Rhe1.

[veerus]

Goat, and everyone else on the Ng5 wagon. What do you think is the best reply by black is. If you find it, then you've found the draw-ish resolution (or at least anti-climatic given how good Ng5 seems at first). I'm reluctant to post it as it is a great reply, in my opinion, and I'd rather not give it away if black doesn't see it.

[veerus]

I'm leaning towards Rhe1. It allows us to double up our rooks and still leaves Ne5 as an option to force a trade or severely restrict black's bishop's influence. It also neutralizes "THE move" and, if black trades rooks, lets us plant another rook on e6 without an immediate way for black to get rid of it. And if black goes with fxg3, we can always bring the rook back to h1 for a crushing attack.

[veerus]

That's the money move I was referring to. We're =/= at best.. but we're not ahead. I think our best option is to begin trading down and force a draw.

Rhe1 forces a trade, which isn't the worst thing in my opinion. Kd1 is decent too, but may cost us valuable tempo and allow black to bring the a7 rook closer to the action (...Rg7 for example). For this reason, I'm leaning towards Rhe1, to force the trade.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Rhe1 Rxe6 26. Nxe6

move: Rhe1

[veerus]

Rf8 is a discovered attack on the knight. But you do have a point.

unmove

for now

[veerus]

h4 hurts us big time after fxg3

Rhe1 Rf8
Rh6 for a killer attack

[veerus]

Erm.. i definitely had some blindfolds on when I was looking at that... I don't know what to do.

[veerus]

Bah.. there's active discussion.. I think we should get another week.

[veerus]

Due to lack of better options and the possibly likely event of the mod not extending the deadline for us, I'm inclined to believe that Qf3 is our best option in time pressure all things considered.

unmove; move: Qf3

We shouldn't have rushed with Ng5.. now we're paying for it.

[veerus]

What about Rhe1 Rf8... then what? Only thing I can come up with is Nh3 but that move doesn't make me overly excited since that gives black some time to bring the a7 rook into the fray.

Qf3 keeps the pressure on black by attacking the d5 pawn and protecting the exchange at f4/g3.

[veerus]

IH is right. We've been through this earlier. Rhe1 leads to death no matter how you spin it.

Kd1 is passive and allows black to bring the other rook into the mix.

Qf3 is best because it keeps the pressure and forces black to continue defending.

[veerus]

So what's up? Are we moving Qf3? Did we get deadlined into moving Qf3?

[veerus]

well then, let's hope people vote for Qf3 or we'll probably have to start lynching

[veerus]

We have 3 votes for Qf3.. shouldn't the day end now?

[veerus]

h4 fails to h6.

Rhe1 is the better move here. I'll be V/LA until monday but this is our best move it seems. Black is defending well and this is our last chance to push for an advantage. I'll vote Rhe1 when I come back unless there's a compelling argument against it.

[veerus]

hm, good point.

what about Nh3? I really don't want to leave our g3 pawn exposed to fxg3 with that bishop covering it. And Nh3 would allow us to put pressure on that pawn.

[veerus]

I really don't want to leave our g3 pawn exposed to fxg3 with that bishop covering it.

Really? I don't see fxg3 being a viable move for Black.

Not right away, no. But that pawn will remain weak for the rest of the game and fxg3 will surely be viable in a few moves.

[veerus]

move: h4

I don't like it, but it's probably our best move all things considered.

[veerus]

no that's terrible.. our 2 options are Rhe1 or gxf4

[veerus]

why are you both voting for Re5 w/o explanations when that move is our worst choice?

i'm actually leaning towards Rhe1 since that pins the bishop

[veerus]

ok fine, i see it, but i'm still not convinced it's better than the other options... i'll think about it

[veerus]

IH, that's brilliant.

unmove;move: Qd3

[veerus]

I still believe Re5 is our worst choice. Not crazy about Nxh7 either.. primarily because Qd3 accomplishes pretty much the same thing without the early knight sac.

[veerus]

MSSK has been MIA for a bit sounds like. No reason for us to stop talking. I still like Qd3.

[veerus]

i don't want to sac the knight now.. it's too early and way too unneccesary.. (at least i assume that you meant Nxh7 not Nxf7)

also, what's your response to 28. Nxh7 Qf7.. none are satisfactory and all stall our attack big time

move: g4

we need to force the issue now

[veerus]

IH, what's your response to Qf7?

[veerus]

Wrong.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. Nxh7 Qf7 29. Ng5 Bxg5 30. hxg5 Kg8

And the attack is no more.

g4 is the way to go or we're going to play ourselves into a draw and force unnecessary lynches

[veerus]

the position above is vastly worse than one that would result from g4

[veerus]

@veerus: Black thwarts White's attack, but gives White an even stronger attack. Your point is...?

white doesn't have an attack anymore.. it's an even (and draw-ish) end-game

[veerus]

..but gives White an even stronger attack.

You didn't read this?

i did, and i strongly disagree. Show me an attack stronger than g4 which, AT WORST gets us a piece advantage going into the end-game

[veerus]

the position above is vastly worse than one that would result from g4

You can't see that Nxh5 leads to a white attack, while g4 leads to a black attack?

1. Nxh5 is invalid.. I assume you mean Nxh7 which, as I showed above, leads to nothing
2. g4 leads to us obtaining a material advantage in the WORST case
3. Nxh7 isn't a sac under the line i showed however it is a sac for your purposes since i'm assuming you expect the king to capture the knight (and losing a knight for a pawn is a sac.. and a poor one at that)

[veerus]

what's the flaw with the line i showed then? show me how that leads to a stronger attack.. you and your scum-buddies are obviously trying to persuade everyone away from the better move and i would like the rest to see how wrong you are

mod: prod/replace mastin (probably replace based on Tar's comments in the MTG game)

[veerus]

Yes, my line isn't the only possible option, but others aren't much better either and some still end up moving g4. If we do it now, we don't provide black with some material cushion for the likely loss of the rook.

[veerus]

I don't know how much more clear this can be. A guaranteed material advantage is FAR better than a questionable, poorly timed attack that can be easily neutralized.

mod: prod goat please

[veerus]

Here. Waiting for one of the following to happen:
-The inactives to become active.
-The Move-hammer for Nxh7.
-The deadline to hit.

Or hopefully for someone to think things thru and go for g4.

[veerus]

yes, as something that wasn't great for white.. but whatever, i guess we'll see how it plays out since it'll obviously win at the deadline

[veerus]

Rh6 - good response to Qf7, imo.

which is neutralized with Qg7 which leads to white maybe winning a pawn or two.. hardly an attack.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. Nxh7 Qf7 29. Rh6 Qg7 30. Qxf5 Qxh6

Compare that to g4 which keeps the pressure up and wins a rook for a knight in the worst case scenario.. maybe same net result except that after g4 the black king is still under pressure

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Bxg5 29. gxf5

[veerus]

1. I'm not scum.. if I was, I wouldn't keep trying to find holes in the poor moves that have been suggested by you and co
2. Lack of your (and your buddies') desire to respond to my valid arguments and be content to wait until a worse move is deadlined is textbook scum.. considering you replaced sirdanilot who didn't contribute at all to this game except to make attacks or lurk, you're not convincing me that his (and your) play wasn't scummy
3. Nothing we say can really "help" black at this point. This is chess and there are a few FORCED sequences here after g4, all of which win material in the WORST case. Your suggestions lead down a questionable path with no clear way to secure a comparable advantage. If your line is such a great attack, show us a FORCED sequence that gives us an advantage (like g4 is) and everything will be solved. This "helping scum" routine is, well, scummy and if this game ever gets to the lynch stage, you'll be at the top of my list.

[veerus]

Anyway, like I've said before, both lines lead to positions where White has the advantage, so I'm not too concerned with us winning this game, at the moment. But I favor g4 because it leads to immediate, undeniable,

significant

material gain, whereas Nxh7 lacks that characteristic.

QFT. As I said, show us a FORCED line that leads to an advantage like g4 does.

I've gone through the likely line after Ng5 earlier in the day and showed that it sucks. Rh6 is slightly better gaining an advantage of a pawn or two which is not nearly as dominating as winning a rook for a knight with the added bonus of having two active rooks against a handicapped bishop and a rook on the other side of the board.

[veerus]

I looked at that line and Rh6 is not nearly as clear or strong as g4 is. I still welcome you to prove me wrong and show me how this golden line of yours is better than our current path.

As for deadlines, mod is happy to get votes and have the game moving. This isn't the first time a move after the deadline has been accepted. But it's always been the majority move.

Goat, here's the cliff's notes: the Nxh7 discussion wasn't all that heated. It was basically Zazier/IH/Emptyger claiming that Nxh7 was SO GOOD but couldn't tell us why out of fear of revealing their master plan to "the scum". Then I mentioned that g4 leads to a FORCED line which scum couldn't stop since this is primarily, you know, a game of chess, so revealing moves isn't that big of a deal. As the answer to showing us a FORCED line after Nxh7, we heard a lot of crickets and stalling posts hoping for the deadline to come.

[veerus]

move Qf6

with the threat of Re8.

[veerus]

move Qf6

with the threat of Re8.

You mean Qf5, right?

Err sorry, I meant Qg6.

unmove;move: Qg6

[veerus]

You're all wrong. No matter what black plays after Qg6, our response is either Rxh7 or Re8. Both lead to a strong attack and more material won. It's game over.

[veerus]

You're all wrong. No matter what black plays after Qg6, our response is either Rxh7 or Re8. Both lead to a strong attack and more material won. It's game over.

[veerus]

You're all wrong. No matter what black plays after Qg6, our response is either Rxh7 or Re8. Both lead to a strong attack and more material won. It's game over.

[veerus]

You're all wrong. No matter what black plays after Qg6, our response is either Rxh7+ or Re8. Both lead to a strong attack and more material won. It's game over.

[veerus]

You're all wrong. No matter what black plays after Qg6, our response is either Rxh7+ or Re8. Both lead to a strong attack and more material won. It's game over.

[veerus]

Holy crap sorry about that. Pc at home kept hanging and I had to run out for work.

The answer to your question, AA, is like I said - Rxh7. Black is forced to capture with the rook and we follow up with Re8.

And can we please drop the crap about hiding moves. We're in the forced sequence mode where our BEST move is much BETTER than theirs. After that I'm hoping Zazier will resign and save us all the trouble of playing out a won ending.

[veerus]

Holy crap sorry about that. Pc at home kept hanging and I had to run out for work.

The answer to your question, AA, is like I said - Rxh7. Black is forced to capture with the rook and we follow up with Re8.

And can we please drop the crap about hiding moves. We're in the forced sequence mode where our BEST move is much BETTER than theirs. After that I'm hoping Zazier will resign and save us all the trouble of playing out a won ending.

In your scenario Black gets two rooks for a queen and a pawn. That isn't that good for us.

Point received. I will consider other continuations.

[veerus]

The only problem I see with Qg6 is that we likely end with a Q vs RB ending and according to some website I was able to google, that's a drawn ending.

[veerus]

I should clarify that QvRB is a draw in a

pawnless

ending. We have pawns and personally I'd rather have the queen than a RB but that's a matter of preference. Hmm, but it would give up the material advantage that we just acquired. So let's look at other options.

unmove

Qf5 trades queens pretty much which isn't a terrible option considering we need to simplify into the end-game with an advantage. The only BIG problem with this move is that we give black TWO passed pawns.

[veerus]

I've already said that Qf5 forces a trade which isn't the worst thing in the world except that it allows black TWO passed pawns that theoretically have a higher chance of getting to the 8th rank as compared to our one pawn considering black's king and bishop are right there.

Has anyone looked at Rh5 or Rhe1? Neither excites me. And I'm thinking that Qg6 and the resulting QvRB with one passed pawn each is probably better than Qf5 and 2 black passed pawns vs one of ours in heavy traffic. What does everyone else think?

[veerus]

Then why did you agree to play in the first place?

Anyway, did Qf5 get hammered or should I continue exploring the board?

[veerus]

Ok then, what about Re5? It gets the bishop away while keeping the pressure.

[veerus]

We have a free shot at the d5 pawn and prevent the discover check after f3.

[veerus]

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. Everyone else seems to have a big case of group-think going on.

unmove; move: Re5

[veerus]

We have a free shot at the d5 pawn and prevent the discover check after f3.

My question was what is your response move after black has played a move if we play Re5. Not what the advantages are of playing Re5.
Because I don't see what we can do after threatening a black pawn and a black bishop.

Well, black can't effectively protect the bishop AND the pawn, so unless you can point something out, our response would be to capture whatever piece is not protected. How is that not obvious?

[veerus]

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. Everyone else seems to have a big case of

group-think

going on.

What do you mean with the bolded?

I mean that there's no discussion and no consideration of alternative moves. Especially when the move being voted on is terrible.

[veerus]

I still say that Qf5 is not the right move. It's not a bad move- in fact it's a good move, and I could support it under different conditions. But I think it's a mistake to trade off our strongly placed and active queen for black's inactive and poorly placed queen.

QFT

[veerus]

Because this..
1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Rxg5 29. hxg5 Bxg5 30. Re5 Qd8 31. Qg6
...is unstopable.

And Rg7 is no longer a valid response whereas it could be now.

OR

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Rxg5 29. hxg5 Bxg5 30. Re5 Qg8 31. Qf5

Both scenarios benefit us tremendously and take advantage of black's queen being pinned on the 8th rank in defense. Qf5 trades queens making black get rid of its weakest piece while making white lose its strongest.

[veerus]

move: Qf5

obviously

[veerus]

What he said..

Move Rhe1!

Hasta la vista...queenie!

[veerus]

32. Rhe1 Bh4
33. R1e2 Rf7
34. Qh5 f3
35. Re8 ...doesn't matter

[veerus]

sorry.. was out of town for a few days...

move: Rhe1

if it was missed the first time