Mini 731 Speed Dating Smalltown: Over!

[neko2086]

Table 11 is mine, betches.

[neko2086]

@BSG- I picked the gun owner because I haven't played a game like this before and I didn't want to immediately take a role w/ too much responsibility (like Wendy). I also felt that the pgo should be a townie role (that said, I agree with shanba that I shouldn't keep this role. I think that later on down the road there may be a point in which we feel keeping one person in the role would be better than giving it to scummier alternatives, but it should certainly be rotated for at least few days).


Korts is next to pick. I'd say he, shanba, or oman should take Wendy, though this isn't based on much. We don't have a whole lot of time to discuss this.

[neko2086]

Anyone object to Korts taking Wendy for today? I like his plan, and I think we can assume he'll follow by it, which wouldn't be as certain with others.

[neko2086]

Shanba- he could go against his own plan, yes, but that would be a pretty blatant retraction on his word, which would force a considerable amount of attention to him. That's why I think it's less likely he'd go against the plan than somebody else. Another person could have taken the role without pre-agreeing to the subvote.

Of course, Korts said in certain situations he might not go with the plan if necessary, but it would need to be justified the next day. It's all about accountability, really.

[neko2086]

Oooh, double-voting yourself must be twice as scummy as regular self-voting

vote: Oman

So much WIFOM and the game hadn't even started yet!

[neko2086]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say we'll probably end up wanting to switch roles today, and opt to keep roles later on in the game...

It probably is too early to decide, though.

The farside/empking thing is a non-issue to me, btw.

[neko2086]

Wow, this is getting ridiculous.

There are far too many players building themselves the deliberate "always scum" meta.

^This.

Don't have much time to post now, but I think empking is full of it. Shitty, nitpicky cases on farside quite frankly.

vote="empking"

[neko2086]

oppertunistic vote, I think right now we as the town need to find out if the 2 ton gorilla in the room that is empking is scum (Which I personally think is given his reactions,)

...my (failed) vote is opportunistic, yet you agree that empking is scum...

Tanarin, sorry that I haven't posted a million times to argue about who said what when and how f-ing scummy that makes them. It's a ridiculous argument, and empking is insisting that he's got a fail-safe case on farside over an incredibly minor issue.

I'm obviously not going to hammer empking right now, but I'll at least

unvote

[neko2086]

I went on an unexpected excursion. I'm back. Did you miss me?

[neko2086]

Again, I haven't really been inspired by the argument that has dominated the discussion thus far. There hasn't been much else to go on yet.

[neko2086]

Tanarin, I haven't been inspired to join into the argument. All I can see is that empking is pushing a terrible case on farside, which is more than worthy of a vote. See the difference?

[neko2086]

There was quite a long period of time between those first two posts you pointed out. I didn't expect empking to push the issue as far as he did.

To clarify: I thought it was a non-issue originally (statement A).

Statement B: After

several

pages of the same ridiculous argument, pushed mostly from the empking side and with terrible reasons, I

did

change my mind (true, though, I did not specify that my mind had been changed).

Statement C: Not what I was trying to say. My response to tanarin about not being inspired to join the argument was in response to what I interpreted as an accusation of lurking. He said I'd only made a few posts, and I said sorry I haven't joined the ridiculous argument.

Is that clearer?

[neko2086]

Korts, Shanba, I'll address your points in another post shortly. I've been working on this for the last hour and I want to post it first. I realize I haven't been very proactive so far, so I wanted to share my thoughts on everyone:

BSG

I have no major issues with her as of now. She’s put some good thought into the use of roleswitching and such in the game. Her vote on empking seems decent.

Empking

Out of 59 posts, only a few actually address somebody other than Farside, but it always still goes back to her. The rest of his posts are a series of pointless minute contingencies with Farside. The tunnel-vision is pretty bad, especially considering what a tiny tunnel it is.

farside

In some ways, I think she’s guilty of feeding the troll, but for the most part it’s clear she’s defending herself from a terribly contrived case. She has only recently gotten out of her tunnel-vision mode, but at least she has.

Korts

I have just one problem with him:

Wow, Empking, getting serious a bit fast there huh? We have plenty of time to look into that if need be. Though it is kinda suspicious that she took what amounts to the second/third most powerful role in the game.

Uhh, why are you throwing shit around based on nulltells? After all, farside had equal motivation both as town and as scum to take as powerful a role as she can.

unvote, vote: Tanarin

Getting it out of my system

(To be fair, this seems to be a joke in response to something Tanarin said, but still, after that last post addressed to Tan, I just have to wonder).

It lessons the town's information? I've never understood how random votes are supposed to give information in the first place, but that's just me. EmpKing's case on Farside is quite clearly tripe. Hrm.

Unvote Vote: Tanarin

I don't follow your train of thought, Shanba. Tanarin's made valid arguments so far. Clarify?

Really? Then why did you argue with him earlier and then vote him?

Oman

This is a bad wagon.

In reference to the Empking wagon.

Unvote, Vote Empking

I smell a rat.

Wait, what happened? Why do you keep waffling on Empking?

orangepenguin

Hasn’t posted much, which I’m guilty of as well. I don’t see anything extremely troubling about his posts so far, though it would be nice to hear more from him.

Rogue Shenanigans

Has posted very little content, less than me even. I still agree strongly with his post about the “always-scum meta.” Again, would be nice to hear more from him, though.

Seraphim

Empking has a meta of acting scum when he's town and scum when he's scum.

I know not everybody agrees with this, but I feel strongly that nobody should ever be given a free pass just because they're "always scummy." I'll ask you the same thing I ask others when they make statements like this: What would it take you to vote empking?

Another point of interest is the fact that if we lynch Empking, we lose the Tracker role.

This is something we're going to have to discuss. If we think somebody is scum, but we really want to keep the role, do we wait to switch them into a role we'd feel more comfortable losing? If that means making a half-assed, compromising lynch instead, I say no, it's too risky. Inevitably, we're going to lose lots of roles along the way, and I'm not sure the role a person has at the moment should really be a make-or-break factor.

Empking is an easy wagon. Looking back in topic for scum who are looking for an easy ride, regardless of whether or not Empking is actually scum...

It would be great to know, though, whether you think he's scum or not.

Shanba

I do appreciate his trying to look around the main argument for another avenue of discussion, but I would like to know if he actually thinks empking could be scum. He has said he would be a bad lynch, but only in comparison to my lynch, it seems.

Tanarin

Thinks I am scum bussing a partner, but only after Shanba had already brought some complaints against me. Tanarin, how might your theory apply to orangepenguin or RogueShenanigans? You’ve made no mention of them in this context, and that worries me.

[neko2086]

Shanba, I'd just like to know if you think that tunneling in on one player with really shitty reasons is excusable. I think we may just be at a point of disagreement.


Korts, my reason for picking the PGO will obviously have no meaning for the town as I'm unconfirmed, but from my perspective, I'd rather not let scum have the chance to take the role and thus be subject to investigations. You don't have to like it, and I in no way expect you to, but that's my reason.

[neko2086]

It's a figure of speech.

[neko2086]

Fine. In some ways, I think Farside is guilty of feeding the flames. This is closer to what I was trying to say, anyway.

I don't think ad homs are helpful. That wasn't my intent.

[neko2086]

I'm actually getting quite close to helping lynching Emp for a few reasons:

1. This isn't getting us anywhere, no-one by Tanarin is looking elsewhere

2. The game is stalled around this

3. Today will likely end in a deadline Empking lynch anyway.

Do you think he's scum, though?

[neko2086]

Because I can't see anyone better as it stands.

Why not, though? We need to hear something substantial from you.

[neko2086]

Unvote

FS is scum, though. I'll pretenfd that FS doesn't exist from now on.

Did nobody notice this?

I'm fine with alternative bandwagons for pressure and a well-rounded D1 discussion, but to what extent are we willing to let empking get away with things like this?

I have to admit, though, that I'm having a difficult time finding a good answer to the question of why scum would push such a poor and unpopular case for so long. Is he just trying to appear to be scumhunting? Surely he could do so in a different manner. Is Farside scum and they are just trying to do some uber-distancing? I think farside is better than that, but it's possible.

Considering that there is plenty of time left for D1, I have no problem moving my vote, but I'll be watching Emp.

unvote; vote: RS

Post something useful.

[neko2086]

From what I can tell, I've already addressed the points brought up about me. Oman and Shanba can't decide whether or not they think I'm scum.

If there is a specific question or concern that somebody would like me to address, I gladly will.

[neko2086]

Oh for F sakes, that was a simulpost.

And then jumping on the nearest bandwagon?

My vote on RS is the second one. My problem with RS isn't coming out of the blue, either, if you've been paying attention.



SSK, is there anything

before

your post accusing me of dodging questions/concerns you'd like me to address?

[neko2086]

As far as my choice of the PGO, yes. I never expected anyone to like my reason for it.

As far as my interactions and vote on emp, clearly not. Is there any reason you need me to tell you this rather than you use the "Display posts by" function? You asked me why I'm ignoring the case on me, yet you haven't explained what it is exactly I'm supposed to have been ignoring.

[neko2086]

Oman, do you think I'm scum?

[neko2086]

What in my last few posts put me "closer and closer"?

[neko2086]

Neko anfd his recent reactions.

Specifics, please?

[neko2086]

Tan- this is the way I see it: The PGO isn't going to be investigated, narrowing down the options of those with investigative roles. It would be a great role for the scum to have, which is why it's just as beneficial for the town to have it (just so that the scum don't). By taking it, I figured I'd give the town a better chance of investigating scum.

I didn't take the mason role because I figured it would be more helpful to take out the PGO. Of course, these explanations don't mean anything if you don't believe I'm town, but y'all keep asking me about it and I'm not going to lie to make you happy, so terribly sorry if you don't like them.

You seem to bre trying to defend yourself but not saying why you're not scummy

?
Aren't I saying why I'm not scummy by virtue of defending myself? What distinction are you making? Do you need me to explicitly

tell

you that I'm not scum?

[neko2086]

We hadn't talked about discussing who should get which role until after I (and OP) made my choice, and even then, we had pretty well decided only the role-switch blocker needed to be discussed.

So, if we weren't going to waste our time discussing who should take the role,

anyone

taking the PGO would look suspicious. Really, I don't know what you were all

hoping

to hear when asking me why I chose the role.

[neko2086]

Please point me to a specific post and show me the difference.

[neko2086]

Ok, but that was

one

instance in which I wanted to know if he was voting for me because he thought I was scum or just for pressure (which is a valid and appropriate question).

Clearly, there are other instances of me defending myself.

[neko2086]

There was quite a long period of time between those first two posts you pointed out. I didn't expect empking to push the issue as far as he did.

To clarify: I thought it was a non-issue originally (statement A).

Statement B: After

several

pages of the same ridiculous argument, pushed mostly from the empking side and with terrible reasons, I

did

change my mind (true, though, I did not specify that my mind had been changed).

Statement C: Not what I was trying to say. My response to tanarin about not being inspired to join the argument was in response to what I interpreted as an accusation of lurking. He said I'd only made a few posts, and I said sorry I haven't joined the ridiculous argument.

Is that clearer?

[neko2086]

1. Obviously I understood that. I think it's worth it, why wouldn't it be?

2. At this point, only the scum can be 100% of who is scum and who is town. I think it's always good sign if someone is looking in multiple places with good reasoning, even if it brings negative attention to a townie.

[neko2086]

Well, that

wasn't

his question, and do you really think I purposefully

tried

to bring negative attention to myself? I think you need to reread Shanba's question and my response.

[neko2086]

Then I am confused as to what you're trying to say, Tan. You're

not

saying that I'm trying to bring attention to myself, but you

are

saying that I'm redirecting questioning to myself. What distinction are you making, and how does it make me scummy, exactly?

[neko2086]

OP, why the unvote?

It's nice to know you don't think I'm scum, but I'd rather know who you think is.

[neko2086]

I don't think you would have received as much attention as you have been if you didn't point out Shanba was indeed looking elsewhere

???

Do you really believe this? If you've been paying attention, I clearly started getting flak before I made such a mention, and that mention wasn't questioned until a considerable amount of time later.

And why don't you answer

my

question first? What on earth do you mean when you say I'm not trying to bring attention to myself, though I am redirecting questioning to myself? Also, you are asking me to account for something I believe I haven't done... I can't answer a question that makes no sense.

And here's a question for

you

. If you're not trying to imply that I'm scummy, just what

are

you trying to prove, and why

aren't

you scumhunting?


Is this guy making sense to anyone else?

[neko2086]

I know it's because you love me, Shanba, and you can't stand the thought of me suffering through this any longer. It's ok, you can admit it.


Tan, I'd still like to know what exactly you're trying to prove if it's not that I'm being scummy, and why this line of questioning is better than scumhunting.

[neko2086]

Emp, why are you asking me? If you don't know, why are you voting me? Why not reread?

I

think that I'm a default lynch. I think I've explained myself sufficiently, but people are still hanging on for somebody with a shitty role to lynch. Like, Farside, for example. Without your wagon or the RS wagon to follow, she gets on mine, and I'm hoping she'll explain why, shortly.

Seraphim should be back and posting soon. Terribly anxious to see what he has to say, as I think he's slipped under the radar for the most part this game.

Since RS is being replaced,

unvote; vote:Seraphim

[neko2086]

Will post again soon. Dealing w/ issues.

[neko2086]

Hm. Xtoxm, now that you've been here a few days, mind sharing your thoughts on who might be scum?

[neko2086]

My lack of activity is based on having said pretty much all I can have said. People seem determined to lynch me, and it also seems that some of them are more motivated to just be rid of the role.

If I could do it again, I would have picked a different role. At the time, I just thought, hey, I don't want scum to have that role.

Anyway, I would like to hear more from thAdmiral, SSK, and Xtoxm.

unvote; vote: Xtoxm

The hider is a pretty useless role, too, if that's the ruling logic of today's lynch.

[neko2086]

Shanba- partially, yes. You seem as though you'd like to believe I'm scum, as you felt strongly so early on, but you've been increasingly conflicted. I get the impression that you are comfortable voting me mostly because you'd be rid of the PGO.


I would say, however, I'm more worried about those that are solely using this line of reason to support my lynch.

To this, and also responding to Tan, I'd say that if you're vote on me boils down to some poor play and choosing a weak role, I would ask you to ask yourself why my lynch is preferable to xtoxm's, for example, who has really contributed nothing, even actively lurking.

Just a note: my last post was not to say that I'm giving up. I don't intend to let y'all lynch me easily, and I hope it will become apparent who's just tagging along for the easy ride. Also, maybe I'm not always able to post 5 times a day, or even once a day, but when I do post, I at least try to make it worth it.

[neko2086]

hohum, why single out shanba as somebody who is wanting to lynch based on roles and not xtoxm or others?

OP, I very much agree with you, but please indulge us with an idea of who you think that person might be.

[neko2086]

xtoxm, can you please explain why you find farside scummy?

OP, yes, people want to lynch me, but what do

you

want to do? Also, I was interpreting your statement differently than you, apparently, because you seem to be viewing this as an either/or scenario.

Clearly, the best way to go about this is to lynch based on both role and alignment. There are several roles we can do without, and if a scummy person is holding on to one of them, they are a perfectly acceptable lynch candidate.

So, OP, do you think I'm scummy? What about Xtoxm? Others?

[neko2086]

MafiaSSK, OP, any reason you're not yet voting? Deadline is coming up soon.

mod, I'll be V/LA until late on the 15th

[neko2086]

You did what??? How did jailkeeping the watcher help us?

Also, jailkeeping involves both roleblocking AND protecting. Why jailkeep instead of roleblocking if you didn't trust him?

[neko2086]

Tracker/watcher, I still don't see how blocking the tracker is at all helpful. OP needs to explain his thought process there.

[neko2086]

Farside, do you agree with that entire statement?


OP, one more question about your night action--had you been thinking during the day about how you might use your power? Like, which you might use and who you might use it on? Or, had you not planned on using any of them? It just seems odd that you would have been caught completely off guard like that and had to make a hasty decision.

[neko2086]

Shanba, OP has pretty well established that he wasn't thinking. I don't think this is just unfortunate, rather, it might be telling.

I've been thinking about this more, and it seems that both scum and town have some motivation to use one of the JOAT actions. I do think it's possible, however, that OP as scum could've been so distracted by night talk and making a decision on a NK, that he completely forgot he had a JOAT responsibility.

I think it's even more likely that he's the SK, if we have one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we're looking for a SK, we need to look for evidence of somebody working on their own, in their own self-interest. It seems like for somebody to not have thought

at all

about their role that requires

two

decisions (who do I target and what action do I take). Scum would at least, I would think, feel a certain amount of responsibility to the scumteam to take an action with the role. I think a SK would more likely make such an oversight.

Now, if it turns out that we

don't

have a SK, I think it's only marginally more likely that OP is scum than town, but I

really

think this shouldn't be overlooked.

vote: OrangePenguin

By the way, how badly do we want to keep our masons?

[neko2086]

There were two decisions as JOAT- Who to target, and which ability to use. You thought about neither during the day, apparently.

And why does it seem so hard to understand that jailkeeping and roleblocking are

not

the same thing? Jailkeeping also involves a protection. If you thought he was scum, protecting him makes absolutely no sense (as town).

[neko2086]

I find it curious that neko is speculating that I am a SK. Like Oman just pointed out, there is no evidence of a SK. Unless..neko knows something we do not?

I am not the first to make such a speculation. I don't like this attempt to deflect attention. I also don't like your ignoring your mason partner, or your general attitude about this game.

[neko2086]

Thought I was voting OP.

vote: orangepenguin

Korts' explanations have made sense thus far, but it seems to me it's very much contingent on his hohum case.

[neko2086]

Of course, Korts said in certain situations he might not go with the plan if necessary, but it would need to be justified the next day. It's all about accountability, really.

I was wrong about him not going against his own plan, but as I've said, I'm fairly comfortable with his explanation so far. Also, he's already come under quite a bit of scrutiny, which I think is appropriate, but I see no reason for me to ask him why he did what he did, as that would just be redundant.


Tanarin, Korts' plan also required the participation of everyone to give an opinion on how to use the role toward the end of the day. Sure, he didn't ask for it, which I think is unfortunate, but we all forgot about it. The voting we took at the beginning of the day was stale by the end, so I don't really blame him for considering it useless. It was mentioned a couple times that the early voting on the issue was pretty useless anyway.

[neko2086]

Korts, how is your case on hohum coming along?

[neko2086]

Oh the irony. OP you are just precious.



Seriously, skimming through your posts, I've not seen you say anything about SSK before. What happened to you thinking Empking is scum?

[neko2086]

OP,

If you haven't forgotten about empking, that certainly hasn't been clear in your last few posts. I

did

skim through your posts, singling you out even, and I really had a hard time finding much about SSK. I really don't think it's too much to ask for a refresher on why you think he's scum so that we know you're not just "hopping on the hottest new wagon," to use your words.

You've accused SSK of not scumhunting and you've voted him. That's about all I can find. The rest of your posts mostly deal with empking, but then you switched back to ssk without really explaining why you think ssk is scummier than emp. Since you think I'm just making things up (which is speculation isn't it? Is that the same kind of speculation you're accusing me of?), I'd be glad if you could prove me wrong.

[neko2086]

I am good as dead.

Appeals to emotion aren't helpful.

It's hilarious seeing MafiaSSK's scumbuddies being quick to defend him though. Very telling.

Wild guess... am I included in the assumed scumbuddy group? Can you post instances of me defending SSK?

I wasn't being omgusy towards neko

Really? Cuz you kinda just threw me into your scumlist after I started making a case against you, deciding that things I did were scummy in retrospect.

there is also the talk about a non-existent case when he had barely accused OP ever.

And then there's you with a non-existent case on hohum. So it'd be nice if we could get that.

SSK, the pbpa on me would be nice, as well as reasoning for voting OP. Since he's obviously scum to you, surely you've got something tangible to say about it.

[neko2086]

Uh... they were masons yesterday.


SSK, mind sharing your D1 thoughts on OP?

[neko2086]

OP, I still want evidence of me defending SSK.


SSK, I was hoping for a summary of what you and Tan talked about in regards to OP.


Farside, can you qualify "less than stellar" a bit?
Oman, anything specific spark that last vote?

[neko2086]

You really don't think so? I think I have. I've asked questions and given my input on who I think is scum. I don't always have the time to post every day and multiple times per day like you do, so clearly I'm not as active as you, but I don't think lurky is accurate or fair at all.

Why are you bringing this up just now if I've been lurky and unhelpful for 39 pages?

[neko2086]

Thank you, Tan.

This got me thinking, what did you think of SSK while/after talking to him in private?


SSK, same question about Tan.

[neko2086]

Pretty sure I've been talking about him a lot lately, but through our conversations I think his night choice is more than just unfortunate, that he hasn't been scumhunting (though apparently I haven't either, so what do I know), that he's drawing baseless (until he can answer my question about it) connections between myself, SSK, and empking, and that his appeals to emotion as well as his omgusy reaction and deflection to me

really

aren't helping his cause.

I still have a question for him as well as others on the table, so clearly I'm not 100% sold on him.

Also, my case on him does not rely on him being a SK. It was just a thought I wanted to toy with.

[neko2086]

SSK, Tan, that was my assumption, but I thought it might be useful to have that stated for the record.


Oman, still wondering what sparked your last vote. You also said you'd look over the OP case. And before that, you said a Empking/Korts pairing warrants a reread. So, can we get those now?


Also,

V/LA through 3/14

[neko2086]

Oman, the OP post that looks townie to you contains this:

I doubt you even skimmed, I bet you were just saying that to make ME look bad.. FOS: neko

...

neko, your vote on me doesn't make any sense. Plus, it's all built around your own speculation that has no merit.

I'm not sure what you saw in the rest of the post that looked very pro-town to you.

Also, do you not consider appeals to emotions scummy? If not, fine, but I'd like to know why rather than you just arbitrarily discrediting my posts.

[neko2086]

OP, I've been over this. See my post 904.

As far as the speculation, of course it's not based off evidence, but it's based off of likelihood. At any rate, that was just what prompted my vote. There have been other things I've not liked from you already mentioned.

I don't like appeals to emotion because they're a desperate move that townies really don't need to make, as they're more expendable than scum.



Oman, gut is great and all, but when you say it's not OP's content that looks townish to you, I just want to know what

do

you think of his content?

[neko2086]

So... ineffectual mafia are harder to find? Come on, there's 40 pages of material here. Surely there's something besides gut you can find.


I see I'm no longer in OP's list of people he'd like to lynch. I seem to drift in and out of there with no warning.

[neko2086]

requesting replacement

. Sorry.

Ciao, it's been fun, y'all.

[neko2086]

Woohoo, I was actually helpful!

Sorry for flaking out there, everyone, RL is just beating me to death and I think I have to take a break for awhile. I might play again in the summer, but that might be it.

Honestly, I had a bad gut feeling that Oman was scum. So I figured if farside was town (which I was pretty sure of), she'd likely be targeted, and I could save her by putting her in the PGO's spot, and have Oman-scum killed, plus the NKer killed. Didn't work out exactly that way, but hey, not bad.

Great game. Great mod.