Mini 731 Speed Dating Smalltown: Over!

[Korts]

farside, I would say no to that thought. Here's why: if scum can choose roles for others instead of themselves, they have a far better way to mess with the town. Choosing for ourselves is the better way to go.

[Korts]

Korts, that doesn't really matter. The roles switch owners each day, or Wendy should do something against it. That's why Wendy should be discussed who to take her. I don't want a random player to have Wendy.
But this is the only role who should be discussed. As she decides if roles get switched or not, she has a huge power in this game. The other roles don't have to be discussed. If Wendy decides not to keep the same roles, it won't matter which role was picked day 1 as everyone has a different role. It is all about Wendy. So I would like to discuss about her and keep this role to someone we can hopefully trust.

That's sound reasoning; let's do this.

farside, I would say no to that thought. Here's why: if scum can choose roles for others instead of themselves, they have a far better way to mess with the town. Choosing for ourselves is the better way to go.

You were missing the beauty of my plan.
If scum did that or a person told someone they should pick a role that was useless there better be a really good reason. Thanks for ruining that.

Sorry. They still have to do this, though.

[Korts]

farside, why the sudden change of heart regarding your being questioned first? I mean, Empking may not have had the chance to ask any questions from you at all. You stated your desire to be asked a couple things just as I was going to sleep, and by the time I woke up, you had already chosen without any imput from anyone else. The four hour timespan between your posts 25 and 27 was not nearly enough to give Emp the chance to ask questions; looking at his posting records, his last post yesterday was four hours

before

you asked him to question you, and his first post today was two hours

after

you decided you wouldn't wait for him.

[Korts]

Okay. I think some discussion about who I should pick is reasonable. I'm comfortable with Wendy, if everyone else is. It will probably work like this anyway: whoever has Wendy shall only override rotation if the town's majority agrees to it (voting on this subject before a lynch is therefore something the town should do every day); if they use Wendy's ability without the town's permission (this will be noticed by everyone I presume) they will be subject to a lynch unless they can adequately explain their reasons.

[Korts]

Wendy's ability can really screw with the scum, so in short, fuck the subvote. Korts, you're turning a role powerful in its inherant choas into predictability.

I agree, yes. That is partly my intent, because this inherent chaos is too harmful in the hands of scum; since they know exactly which roles are in their factions hands, they could decide to keep any powerful roles that way

unless

we restrict the use of Wendy's ability.

[Korts]

Ok, I'll

take Wendy

and we can discuss her use later on when the game starts.

[Korts]

vote: Seraphim.

I agree with you.

[Korts]

Vote: Korts

for voting somebody who is schizophrenic.

Why do you believe him? I say he's scum with a bad excuse for it. And you're his partner for defending him. Hah! I've got you all figured out, you scumbags.

[Korts]

I have tried to bandwagon Korts in a different game (ongoing), but it failed. With my vote in this game, it will work
I think Korts knows what I'm talking about I'm surprised that he didn't vote RS.

Ehheh. I don't have grudges. It's not my fault you're misguided, nor is it that RS is

[Korts]

I support the change in roles. vote yes

farside, Wendy's ability is to

stop

rotation, not to start it. So if you want the roles to change hands, you should be voting no.

Also, I myself think that this will need to be decided later, when we will have a proper read on those holding powerful roles and those holding useless ones.

[Korts]

Wow, Empking, getting serious a bit fast there huh? We have plenty of time to look into that if need be. Though it is kinda suspicious that she took what amounts to the second/third most powerful role in the game.

Uhh, why are you throwing shit around based on nulltells? After all, farside had equal motivation both as town and as scum to take as powerful a role as she can.

[Korts]

As a further thought: we'll (or rather, you will) probably need to decide whether I can be trusted with this role, and whether the player above me on the list (Seraphim) can be trusted with this role if it's decided that I shouldn't use Wendy's ability. Again, though, this will probably need to be decided prior to a lynch instead of here and now.

[Korts]

Only wondering why anyone would vote themselves. Please enlighten me why anyone (only exception Natirasha) would do that?

Fun, promoting discussion if they don't usually do it; there are multiple semi-valid reasons.

[Korts]

unvote, vote: Tanarin

Getting it out of my system

[Korts]

It lessons the town's information? I've never understood how random votes are supposed to give information in the first place, but that's just me.

EmpKing's case on Farside is quite clearly tripe.

Hrm.

Unvote Vote: Tanarin

I don't follow your train of thought, Shanba. Tanarin's made valid arguments so far. Clarify?

[Korts]

(also, the fact that FS broke the rules and wasn't replaced for it. Does suggest a power role and the only powerroles are scum.)

This bullshit is enough for me to change my vote.

unvote, vote: Empking

[Korts]

Korts; You're running a game. A VT breaks (on purpose, with intent) the rules. Do you just joke with them about it?

Letters one size smaller: borderline. It was perfectly clear that farside was simply making the point that she's frustrated and not trying to communicate through code.

[Korts]

No it doesn't.

Good argument

sir!

[Korts]

Lack of posting which isn't as bad as writing in small text.

Can I comfirm that you don't thing people had a problem with your lack of waiting pre-game?

Were you or were you not able to read what farside wrote? The point you're pushing is bullshit.

[Korts]

I only saw it because Shafted quoted it. i can read black (is that the term for the text that's only seen when quoted?) doesn't make it OK.

FS; Is that a no or a yes? Post 97 is just you misrepresenting me, not clarifying where I misrepresented you. You contradicted yourself. Yay or nay.

What did shaft.ed quote from farside? Show me.

[Korts]

Oh, he didn't quote from Farside. He dis respond to it though. (Note how Korts completely disregards what I was saying instead (knowing he's wrong) tries to look for technicalities. Doing both is fine, missing the first part isn't fine.)

I'm proving the point that you could read it in the original post, without shaft.ed having to quote it. Note that you didn't actually say anything that should require me to respond, yet you attack me for not responding.

[Korts]

Oh, he didn't quote from Farside. He dis respond to it though.

(Note how Korts completely disregards what I was saying instead (knowing he's wrong) tries to look for technicalities. Doing both is fine, missing the first part isn't fine.)

I'm proving the point that you could read it in the original post, without shaft.ed having to quote it. Note that you didn't actually say anything that should require me to respond, yet you attack me for not responding.

I could read the black text but that doesn't make that OK, does it?

Why should the application of rules be black and white when there's an obvious distinction in the case of this rule between a deliberate code and an out-of-context comment about being frustrated?

And please don't ignore me. Why did you attack me when there was nothing for me to respond to?

Also see bolded: rereading, I spotted that you break the fourth wall and turn to the town in general to point my scumminess out. I find this a pretty good tell.

[Korts]

Korts: There was something for you to respond to.

SHOW ME

[Korts]

What response should I have given to that? You state an opinion ("doesn't make it OK") without any reasoning to back it up; all I can state is my opinion in response, which I had already made clear--there was no breakage of rules.

Here's my response: WHY is it not OK?

[Korts]

You don't consider using small text breaking the rules when the rules clearly state that its against the rules and the mod thinks its against the rules.

It is not OK because it shows a complete disrespect to the mod and his rules.

IMO the intent of the rules is more important than the exact wording. Farside's post wasn't in the spirit that the rule was trying to prevent, so I don't have any problem with it. More importantly, this is the mod's judgement, and shaft.ed's an experienced and unbiased enough mod to modkill anyone who deserves it regardless of their role in the game.

Your hypothesis that farside must be scum due to not being replaced/modkilled hinges on the mod being biased, and that assumption is ultimately flawed and stupid. Add to this the fact that infraction of minor rules will not draw modkill upon first offense usually; immediate modkill is usually only applied in the case of otherwise game-breaking acts: quoting PMs in particular.

[Korts]

Also, please clarify what kind of response you were expecting to the quoted part, because I still hold that there is nothing there that isn't opinion (or false, like the claim that shaft.ed quoted farside).

[Korts]

I uh...look....

Oman, any particular reason you left this in here? Trying to insinuate pro-town uncertainty, perhaps?

[Korts]

The fact that Shaft.ed pointed it out suggests he condidered it a violation of the rule. So FS broke the intention of the rule.

The fact that shaft.ed pointed it out suggests that it deserved a warning. If it deserved a warning, then according to his judgement it didn't deserve a modkill. Seriously, why are you trying to make the point that farside is

likely

to be scum based on the mod's presumed rule enforcement policies, and why do you assume that the mod's said policies would be the same as yours? As you probably know, to assume is to make an ass out of u and me. But mostly you.

When did I use "must" or similar words?

Irrelevant to the point. You implied that farside was more likely to be scum due to not being replaced or modkilled, and that is utter craplogic.

I expected something like. "I find writing in invisible text perfectly fine. I do it all the time in fact."

Did you expect that answer from me? Seriously? You are being a complete idiot.

I hope you're not actually believing your own arguments, Empking, because they are less than bullshit.

[Korts]

1. So FS did break the intent? Are we agreed with that?

No.

2. No it was in fact the entirety of the point. The fact that I used an absolute like "must" was your entire point. So are we agreed that your entire point was BS?

No. You are completely ignoring what I said. My point is, farside isn't

any more likely

to be scum based on the fact that shaft.ed didn't modkill her. You say she is, therefore you are bullshitting.

3. I was working off the assumption that invisible text and the like was universally not encouraged. If you thought differently then if you're town its your duty to tell me

I told you clearly enough, you're just too thick, it seems, to understand. ONE FUCKING SIZE SMALLER IS NOT THE SAME AS INVISIBLE.

[Korts]

1. Shaft.Ed pointed out the rule so Shaft.ed thought it broke the intent. What makes you think you know Shaft.ed intent more that Shaft.ed himself?

Where did you gather that I thought that? Stop putting words into my mouth. shaft.ed's decision is his own.

2. Everyone is biased. I don't think shaft.ed is any less biased. Which gives us the slightly more likely to be scum. Now "must" be scum suggests that I'm saying is that FS must be scum because she wasn't modkilled. Completely different from what I said.

What makes shaft.ed biased? And no, for all intents and purposes, must be is simply and exaggeration of your original point. It isn't all that different, because in reality you're still wrong. It doesn't make farside even slightly more likely to be scum, because there is no proof of shaft.ed being biased. He doesn't have a scum wincon, therefore I don't see why he'd fail to modkill scum more probably than town. And you still haven't addressed the point that first offense doesn't draw modkill with most mods.

Here, let's settle this more conclusively.

mod:

does first infraction of Rule 10 draw a modkill?

3. Both missed over on the first read. Both can be seen. Both are against the rules. Perhaps you can enlighten me on the difference?

The difference is that what farside posted can be read quite easily. The fact that you missed it doesn't prove anything.

And I am opposed to invisible text, but farside didn't post in invisible text, so your point is still nothing.

[Korts]

EBWOP: left this out

1.

Shaft.Ed pointed out the rule so Shaft.ed thought it broke the intent.

What makes you think you know Shaft.ed intent more that Shaft.ed himself?

Where did you gather that I thought that? Stop putting words into my mouth. shaft.ed's decision is his own.

While you accuse me of knowing shaft.ed's intent "more than shaft.ed himself", you are guilty of that exact thing. What makes you assume anything about what shaft.ed thought?

[Korts]

2. He's biased because he's human.

Mod: Are you human?

You are hiding behind general "truths" to avoid having to face that your original point was bullshit.

3. Invisible text can be read quite easily if you know its there. Just like tiny text.

And it was plain to see what farside wrote. Stop arguing semantics and accept the mod's decision. A warning is a warning.

[Korts]

1. A general truth is a truth.

Note the quotation marks around "truth". If you're not going to assume a professional mentality from the mod, don't play in his game.

Doesn't make the fact that he didn't even give FS a warning less food for thought.

That was a warning.

[Korts]

FS lied.

The time of the post in which farside chose you to question her: Fri Jan 09, 2009 11:22 pm
The time of the post in which farside chose a table: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:06 am

That's six and a half hours. It's true: this isn't the same as 12 hours.

FS did appeals to emotions.

That wasn't an appeal. It was a simple expression of frustration. In contrast, an appeal to emotion is this: "if you lynch me, you will lose!" Appeal to emotion is about using

others'

emotions to further your own ends; expressing your

own

emotions doesn't manipulate others.

FS purposely misinterpreted people

If you mean the "12 hours a minute ago" vs "12 hours ago this minute", I don't see the difference between the two.

[Korts]

How can "a minute ago" be read as "this minute"

The same way you skimmed over farside's frustrated outcry. Nevermind the fact that they basically mean the same thing.

[Korts]

So they don't mean the same thing?

They refer to the same time frame.

[Korts]

Do they. Doesn't one refer to the past and one to the present?

One is: "12 hours [ago] a minute ago."

The other is "12 hours ago this minute."

What is the difference?

[Korts]

My point is, that one minute doesn't matter.

What did you write then? Because it seems I misunderstood something. The [ago] was filled in by me for full clarity.

[Korts]

She said "12 hours"
Then in another post she said. "8 hours"
Then I said. "It was 12 hours a minute ago."

Ah, I get it.

[Korts]

Korts, it seems shaft.ed agrees with me.

Strange, I was thinking the opposite.

[Korts]

unvote

I'm not comfortable with this wagon anymore. Give me some time to reread.

[Korts]

I smell

I agree. Why do a 180 turn? What has Empking said between your last two posts that he hadn't said before? Your lack of proper reasoning looks like you're giving in to the lure of a big wagon while trying to imply something in addition.

[Korts]

Doing the reread now. Posting this so I don't give myself the opportunity to "forget".

[Korts]

Hmm. I just noticed that farside chose her role at the

beginning

of her 12 hours before being skipped, not at the end, like I believed. The latter would make sense; the former wouldn't. Perhaps she was trying to keep up the front of being helpful and giving the choice to someone else; of course this theory is full of fail because of the dice roll with which she decided to choose Empking. Still, farside, were you aware that you would still have had another 12 hours before you'd be leap-frogged?

I'm not liking Empking's choice by PM. I don't have a problem with the actual choice, rather the medium through which he made it.

I'm not liking neko's empty reasoning for the choice he made:

I picked the gun owner because I haven't played a game like this before and I didn't want to immediately take a role w/ too much responsibility (like Wendy). I also felt that the pgo should be a townie role

First, I don't see how a PGO isn't a big responsibility without a confirmed alignment. Secondly, it hasn't been established that neko is town, therefore his reasoning that "the pgo should be a townie role" is null; it is also null because of the rotational system.

Post 49 from Seraphim feels wishy-washy regarding Table 10:

Honestly, if no one minds, I don't think who I want to choose matters much. I get the leftovers unless I leapfrog someone. Though I suppose you already know which table I want: table 10.

His projected train of thought switches directions multiple times within one sentence. I'm uncomfortable with sentences like that.

1. I would've chosen tracker. Simply because I think its one of the easiest roles to find scum with. Its not too dangerous as scum, but as town, it kicks them right in the nuts.

Why would you go with an unambiguous role when you are one of the players with the best grasp of theory and practice? I would find it more pro-town, following your train of thought, to leave the easy scumhunter role to those who presumably wouldn't handle more complex roles with the same efficiency.

And I'm up to the start of Day 1. I'm sorry, but it's getting blurry. I'll finish this up later on.

[Korts]

Wait, what happened? Why do you keep waffling on Empking?

I'm not, its still a bad wagon.

Yet you voted him.

[Korts]

Post. Short on time. Sorry, I'll get to this game first thing on-site.

[Korts]

I don't have the motivation for that reread. So I'll just comment on recent thoughts.

Empking, do you think scum would have

any

motivation to change from 12 hours to 8 hours? If so, what would they achieve through it?

But, Korts defended farside as well and as thus attacked Empking

Mmm, so you think I should've let that piece of craplogic fly?

[Korts]

Yet, Korts was the one defending you the most. True there were other people but he was defending the hardest. And IIRC he actually defended you against a scumtell.

Well, if you call farside not getting modkilled a scumtell, yes. Go back and read that argument. What I did was point out that that isn't a scumtell; when Empking replied, I answered his points, which he answered, which I replied to usw.

[Korts]

Korts: Yes, scum do have a motivation for it.

SHOW ME.

[Korts]

Shanba: Baits townies and makes a towny seem worse.

I don't see how this would happen by changing 8 hours to 12 hours. I specifically checked your posts, and you didn't post in between the time farside asked you to question her and the time she chose a table; therefore any accusation would've been invalid anyway. Whether this was 8 or 12 hours is a moot point, and any townies wouldn't have been baited by a claim of 12 hours as opposed to 8.

This is a bad idea. In a sense you are telling scum who looks town and they in turn look at it as who to kill. I believe in scum list but not town list.

I disagree. Crackers! mafia convinced me that scum get confused and can't take it in their stride if town starts calling other town town. It's almost as important to find town as to find scum, since if all else fails, process of elimination is a useful tool.

Tan- this is the way I see it: The PGO isn't going to be investigated, narrowing down the options of those with investigative roles.

It would be a great role for the scum to have

, which is why it's just as beneficial for the town to have it (just so that the scum don't). By taking it, I figured I'd give the town a better chance of investigating scum.

Exactly, it would be a great role for scum to have. Which is why you're scummy for taking it so early on and without consulting the town.

vote: neko

I'm interested to see where this takes us.

[Korts]

The RS wagon is bad. He's been inactive in other games as well. He hasn't posted in 4 days, and before that, sparsely. It's fairly obvious his wagon is scum-ridden, especially late arrivals are suspect.

That means you, Shanba.

unvote, vote: Shanba

Indecisiveness is one thing. Baseless opportunism, a whole other.

[Korts]

@Korts
Regarding post 309. Why don't you like Neko's reason for his choice, while Empking's reason for chosing tracker is technically the same?

PGO is a much more dangerous role in scum hands; PR hunting in this setup is useless because it's already public who has what role.

Oman, what's your impression of Tanarin when you're talking to him privately?

It's MafiaSSK talking to Tanarin in private.

[Korts]

The indecision and the opportunistic hopping from one big wagon to a growing one and back. It makes me think he's contemplating on an easier lynch.

[Korts]

Huh. I didn't see his Empking vote. Going back to look, it was just a third vote, but you have a point.

If I wanted to go with the easy wagon, why did I spend all that time building a case against neko when empking was a much easier lynch, sitting right there before me?

Huh. Shows I'm really out of sync with this game. I thought you were on the Empking wagon and jumped off only after it lost momentum. Looking back, you

could've hammered Empking if you wanted to

no, Empking wasn't at L-1 any more by the time you posted. Still, I agree you could've tried an Empking lynch and possibly would've succeeded.

It would make no sense, if I was simply looking for an easy lynch, to hop so briefly on the RS wagon. All that my short stay achieved was an amount of unwarranted attention. It would make much more sense for me in that case just to sit on the RS wagon (given that for your theory to work, both RS and neko would have to be town, and therefore I, as scum, would be perfectly happy lynching either one - in fact, I should perhaps be slightly leaning towards RS whose role is slightly more useful to the town and a lot less useful to the scum.)

On the whole I agree. My first thought was that it's a slight towntell that you changed your vote to RS and then back to neko two posts later. But then I considered the (apparently false) fact that you were on the Empking wagon also and had the thought that you were fishing for the quickest wagon.

unvote

[Korts]

Hmm. farside is town.

[Korts]

I don't know why, but I can't just get into the game. I just can't. The game is really interesting and has an interesting format, so I don't want to be replaced out and I won't. I think it's unfair for me to just sit back and not say anything, but, I don't know what else to say

I wonder if this will to all shaft.ed games. Pick a Player was the same: quick pace to start off, good player list, came close to stalling after a couple pages.

Korts post is a bit off too. farside just called him scum, and Korts replies with "farside is town". Honestly, is that all you're going to respond to that with?

What else can I reply with? There's nothing for me to actually answer there, she just threw in a theory; the fact that I have a town read on her based on her most frequent posts is a seperate matter.

[Korts]

EBWOP:

wonder if this will

happen

to all shaft.ed games.

Actually I find my games run best with higher chick densities. When my games are a sausage party everyone peaks too soon.

[Korts]

I agree with Shanba on the Empking wagon when it comes to Empking's role, and I agree that his craplogic and tunnelvision isn't scummy, only anti-town. If the majority wants him for a lynch, he'll still be around tomorrow, but tracker is possibly the most useful role in the setup for town, and the least useful for scum.

And after all this was explained, OP tries to start up the Empking wagon again. Flailing scum trying to keep a halting wagon going, it looks like.

unvote, vote: orangepenguin

[Korts]

@Korts: I don't really know what to say. Your vote on me is pretty weak, I might add, with the slight OMGUS, from you, because I called you out about not replying to farside or whatever

Weak? State your case on Empking again please, because all you seemed to be doing is pushing a wagon where the only basis is Emp being boneheaded. After this has been asserted and acknowledged by multiple people, I just find it scummy that you come in and start bitching about how suspiciously quickly the Emp wagon collapsed, especially when that collapse was due to the realization of a very valid point.

The fact that you try to discredit my vote on you by bringing up the possible motive of OMGUS due to a shockingly minor point indicates to me that you are anxious to get my vote off you and people's votes on me.

[Korts]

Note how OP makes a fairly good point and then concedes how he does such things too. If the latter is true, why did you think it was a scumtell in the first place?

[Korts]

Ho hum. (pun intended.)

I don't see the point in the quote you're pointing at, either, hohum. I see what you're trying to say, but to say that it's fabricated is an understatement.

Let me make this clear: you think that simply because Empking expressed an intent to lynch farside, he was going for a

quick

lynch? I don't see the correlation between conviction and speed, like you're implying.

[Korts]

But if we lynch scum with a role you consider good today, day 2, we could lynch another scum, and then day 3..

I don't think we should base lynch choice off of role. That just gives scum with good roles a free pass and another day to slip by. Possibly lynching scum all three days (unlikely, I know), not basing choice entirely on role, then will it matter at all if we don't have a tracker, or whatever? No, because we'd be this much closer to winning. I see what you're saying though, but I think it's silly to not lynch a scummy person just because they have a role that is considered good.

Transcript: no really I want us to get rid of any useful power roles along with the shiny mislynches.

The point you're missing is that there is no difference technically in lynching Empking today and tomorrow, except that the tracker role stays in play (which is a GOOD thing, since town has great use for it and scum doesn't.)

Also, you're pushing the Empking wagon on a "why not" basis, addressing the point of lynching today compared to tomorrow instead of the point that he hasn't done anything scummy (boneheaded yes, scummy no).

[Korts]

Personally I don't see what's wrong with posting in an account called "Empking's Alt" instead of in the one called "Empking". I mean, he couldn't be more obvious about his identity anyway.

OK, Well what were to happen if the person we DO lynch does not flip scum? Then do we waste our second day lynching empking anyway and possibly going LYLO? I mean I can see seriously considering a lynch of emp if we happen to lynch scum today as we will have the breathing room. Also, we need to consider if we want to keep the role switcher around as emp is due to become that role tomorrow should he make it that far.

Considering a usual 9:3 setup even if we mislynch today, scum kill tonight, and Empking is still the most viable lynch tomorrow, we'd be at 7:3, therefore his supposed mislynch wouldn't cost us the game, pushing us only into 5:3 or 6:3 depeding on the following night's actions' resolution. The former is a mislynch or lose situation, and the latter is still one day from LYLO. I don't see any serious problem with this, if Empking will still be the biggest lynch target tomorrow.

[Korts]

EBWOP:

The former is a mislynch

or

and

lose situation,

[Korts]

So you believe Emp is a mislynch now?
Are we forgeting about a RB, Role switch and all those things that help and could prevent a kill?

Haha, read what I say again. I try to point out that in a general worst case scenario presuming 9:3 town:mafia without third party would still allow for an Empking mislynch; note that I'm making assumptions for a worst case scenario where Empking would be the D2 lynch. The point I'm making is that Tanarin is being too much of a doomsayer here.

[Korts]

Though OP is starting to look like someone we should consider, as he seems to be the only one really pushing the whole lynch emp today thing.

I was one of the first people who started pushing the Emp wagon if not the first; however I'm on the fence about the whole "don't lynch his role" argument.

I think he's a better D1 lynch target than Neko.

I need to go back through the thread and reread the arguments for and against lynching him based on a power role and see if I can draw my own conclusion.

After this comment I really want neko lynched. If he's scum, hohum is probably one as well.

[Korts]

Hmm, I see that I forgot to follow up post 602 with the appropriate vote.

unvote, vote: neko

The Xtoxm wagon is poor and the self-vote stupid.

For those people who have played with Xtoxm before, can you please describe his playstyle for me

Those games that I've been in with him he was generally lurkish, but none of those games was filled with excitement. He's easily bored apparently. I've read some games though where his activity was very high.

[Korts]

Which part?

Self-voting is stupid because it does not further win conditions regardless of alignment; the wagon is poor because stupid=/=scum; I forgot because I'm silly.

[Korts]

Oh. I didn't realize that was the case on him. Fair enough; it's still not better than a neko lynch, or a hohum one, because of the leaked connections from hohum.

[Korts]

you are a double voter today, hohum.

[Korts]

I tried to block rotation last night, but it seems it didn't go through. Now either I sent it too soon (I sent it before post 701 had been posted) or farside blocked me. I sent a pm to shaft.ed asking for clarification on whether my choice had been accepted as valid.

[Korts]

Ok, shaft.ed confirmed that he recieved my night actions, so. farside, why'd you block me? Why did you want to ensure rotation?

[Korts]

Ahaha. You talk like there had been a concensus yesterday. In reality we didn't really discuss whether I should use it or not, so I used my own judgement. And I didn't (don't) really trust hohum with such a swingy role like the role switching blocker.

[Korts]

EBWOP: oh hey, nicely done, evading my question. Any reason you don't want to tell why you blocked me? Bad conscience?

[Korts]

Oh clearly the "only" move she could've done. Saying

afterwards

that she did good in blocking me is fine, but why did she block me in the first place? "I didn't trust you" is as vague as it gets, and if she really thought emp is scum why not block him?

Empking wasn't really scummy IMO, compared to OP and hohum and neko; I didn't want hohum to have the role switching blocker because he was the top of my scumlist.

hohum, didn't and don't refer to the same role. I didn't and don't trust you with the role switching blocker; I didn't mean the double voting. Also, why would your role be worthless? And hohum, seriously? Coasting through? Back this up with something, lest you look like you're pulling shit out your ass.

[Korts]

I didn't actually realize the JOAT can block too. How would ThAdmiral failing to swap roles draw that connection? Elaborate please.

[Korts]

Haha. I asked for clarification on why you believed your role to be worthless; how was I not paying attention when it wasn't clear

why

you said what you said?

So basically you pull a shitty-shitty point out your ass to justify your accusation of "coasting through".

Don't and didn't refer to the same role because hey look I KNEW YOU WERE GOING TO HAVE THE ROLE SWITCHING BLOCKER D2. it doesn't take really big brains to realize that; add to this the fact that the role itself is ambiguous and powerful, and the fact that I suspected you nearing the end of day 1 pretty strongly; what you get is no trust past tense

or

present tense.

[Korts]

OK, you got a result PM saying I didn't do anything, yet OP claims to have jailkeeped ya. I dunno about the rest of you guys, but I think I see a conflict of claims here.

Unvote

I'm gonna need to think about about this some, but today's vote has to be one of empking or OP from what I can tell.

No result usually encompasses being blocked as well as targetting someone without a night action. Otherwise it'd be all to clear who was blocked and who wasn't.

[Korts]

I didn't get any PM, of being blocked or otherwise. farside's post 736 doesn't make sense to me, although I'm a bit pissed. Can you clarify that? For now it seems that you're trying to have the town believe that you blocked me because you knew beforehand that I would use my power?

[Korts]

Ugh. Tanarin, since no power roles should be aware of having been blocked, it stands to reason that if a role wouldn't get a pm otherwise, they don't get a pm if blocked; but if they'd get some kind of result, they get a "no result" pm. Emp was a tracker, therefore he was bound to recieve a report either way.

[Korts]

I didn't call Xtoxm

town

ever. I said that the case on him was weak, and it was weak because the basis of it is his lurking, something which I've seen him do as town multiple times.

And I didn't have any particular suspicion of Emp, thus I didn't have any particular problem with him staying tracker.

[Korts]

No.

[Korts]

Now will you answer my question and stop stalling!

What question? If you mean why I had no problem with Emp staying tracker, I answered.

[Korts]

Most everyone at the start of the discussion said no to you using it. You stated yourself you would use it based on what everyone wanted. That was a lie.

You say it yourself; it was at the

start

of discussion. If people had come to this conclusion after a general idea of suspicions had formed, I would've gone with it, but we didn't discuss whether I should use my role or not after the day's top suspect(s) had been established, so I used my own judgement. And my own judgement was that hohum couldn't be trusted with the role switching blocker while empking wasn't suspicious enough not to keep the tracker.

[Korts]

Yes. And that's exactly the reason why I wanted to block rotation, so you wouldn't have this role (role switching blocker) today, either.

[Korts]

IT HADN'T OCCURED TO ME UNTIL AFTER I HAD TO DECIDE ON A NIGHT CHOICE TO ASK. ALSO THERE IS NO NEED TO WRITE IN CAPS

[Korts]

Yes. And that's exactly the reason why I wanted to block rotation, so you wouldn't have this role (role switching blocker) today, either.

Why exactly am I the target of your scrutiny? I have no intention of using my power without town consensus. Unlike what happened yesterday.

Nice indirect accusation. I'd made my reasons for suspecting you clear yesterday; I saw connections between you and neko as well as you and OP, both from your side. That was indicative enough for me not to trust you with an ambiguous role.

[Korts]

I think Kort's reasoning is valid for why he did the stop. I'm not sure why he didn't bring up the block later in the game when he wasn't satisfied with the early discussion.

Oh my god hell froze over. I agree with Emp

Ugh. Since I promised town I would use the role switch blocking power according to general consensus (unless I had good reason to go against the public opinion), I decided it would be the best to tell the town upfront about me having used the power even though there hadn't been an agreement.

Well the last person to give up info is Oman. Tell us who he protected.
Shanba are you telling me you think Korts reasons for trying to block a change is valid after he was the one to discuss agreeing with the town from the get go?

DON'T GIVE ME THAT BULLSHIT AGAIN FARSIDE YOU KNOW THE AGREEMENT WAS BEFORE THE TOWN HAD EVEN DECIDED ON LYNCH CANDIDATES

By the way I don't think there even was a majority about it. Either way it had been prior to serious and thorough discussion therefore I overruled it and came to my own conclusion.

Shanba: jus saw your post and just a MINOR nitpick. There was a kill, unless of course ThAdmiral is actually a Ken Kesey. >.>

I had it in my head that we were guaranteed a serial killer. Apologies for that, Tan.

Assumptions without basis? If there's a SK Shanba is more likely to be it than not.

I don't see what hohum has as something to worry about.

He has the only power role in the game that can stop people from getting new roles and losing their prior ones, and now that the switcher is dead he alone controls the distribution of abilities. And I'm not happy with that, at all.

Doing things half cocked that takes away information from the town doesn't help
Fos: Korts and OP

How does what I did take away information from the town, for fuckssake? And btw you're already voting me, no need to be theatrical.

[Korts]

Meh. I had good reasons, something you're ignoring. The focal point you chose as your case is that I didn't follow the exact wording of my promise instead of something

scummy

per se and the fact that you're pushing this bullshit is making me want to accuse you.

[Korts]

Now please explain why you think that role is too powerful for scum to have.

I already have. Scum having sole control of the role distributions gives them the choice of keeping beneficial roles and having town keep crappy ones.

Now explain how tracker can ever be useful in scum hands when all the role distributions are open and there is no incentive to power role-hunt.

[Korts]

If scum is dumb enough to hold roles (as you tried to do) they deserve to be lynched.

Oh yeah. Brilliant logic. Scum might try to hold roles, I tried to hold roles therefore I am scum QED.

Korts omgus reaction to me questioning him with a valid reason mind you. Why Emp isn't calling a korts a liar.

OMGUS? Valid reason? Liar? Please substantiate these claims.

[Korts]

What makes you think I can't handle the pressure?

You keep saying you wanted to stop hohum from getting a "powerful" role however the point I keep making and you are not answering is why is it powerful. You stated that he could keep scum with roles that help them. I'm pointing out that if he does it without the town's premission he should be lynched.

Reasons are not hard to come by and town would be stupid if they blindly lynched anyone who broke the rules that had been set up. If town doesn't lynch me my point is proven that the role is a powerful one, therefore my usage of it was justified.

As you tried to do without a valid reason in my book.

I gave you my reason, you don't consider it valid, that's settled.

I DO NOT SEE THE ROLE AS POWERFUL.

I DO.

And for the record, in reply to a parallel argument, tracker has no use in scum hands other than keeping it from town; mafia trackers are useful basically only to find power roles, and your point about lying about targets is true for basically any active role in the game.

[Korts]

Only scum lies.
I don't see you handling pressure when you want to vote for me.

I don't want to vote for you at this point, but the fact that it's largely bullshit you're pushing would be a valid reason.

How is the role powerful? I already stated why it isn't in counter to your reason why it is powerful

Well, and I don't agree with your counter-argument. My opinion is still the same.

I'll post the hohum case later, when I have the time to dig the stuff up.

[Korts]

farside, it's one thing to question me, but why are you so intent on having

everyone

question me?

[Korts]

So just because Emp doesn't make another bullshit case, you think he's scum? Brilliant.

[Korts]

I could definitely see OP as scum, based off that comment.

[Korts]

Vote farside

Reason?

[Korts]

Eh.

vote: orangepenguin

For no new reason.

[Korts]

Korts, how is your case on hohum coming along?

I've been procrastinating. It won't be happening today. I'll try making it tomorrow.

[Korts]

Vote farside

Reason?

I would still like an answer, SSK.

Also, your jump onto one of the leading wagons with little reasoning and the power of two votes (putting him at L-1 btw) is noted.

[Korts]

My reason was that FL seemed scummy with the argument. No real tell standing out here.

With what argument?

[Korts]

I've gone back through your posts for the OP case you reference. These quotes are all the mentions in your posts of OP.

OP could possibly be scum. He doesn't post as much as the rest of the town does so I'm not sure.

Vagueness, uncertainty.

Now in this game, I am more active than usual(especially 539). I am also actually scumhunting in this game.

Scumhunting? You haven't even put out a single vote out yet, not even a random vote. You have only gave a finger of suspicion towards korts and empking and Tan and Neko has given you town vibes. I would hardly call it scum hunting.

unvote, vote: Mafia SSK

I thought I had voted neko a bit earlier on,apparently not.

This is a defense of yourself and there is no reference of OP being scum.

There's an exchange about pressure voting:

Interesting that you immediately post after Xtoxm voted for you. Maybe a little pressure is all you need?

Pressure does seem to work on me usually.

It actually works on me too, to be honest. I usually post more, when addressed specifically and pressed. Otherwise, I tend to take a back seat, I guess.

It works on nearly everyone. Hence why there is such a thing known as a "pressure vote".

Note how OP makes a fairly good point and then concedes how he does such things too. If the latter is true, why did you think it was a scumtell in the first place?

I was basically thinking aloud. I don't have anything to hide, so I might as well type out my thought process behind everything. I think it'd be scummy for me to hide that I do stuff like that too, somethings, so I just put it out there. It didn't occur to me in the first place. My vote stands though, since I still think MafiaSSK is scummy.

How come?

This is a vague question regarding, again, your own defense instead of anything resembling an attack on OP.

So I ask again: what is your reasoning for thinking OP is scum?

----------------

By the way, what happened with this:

@SSK: So when will we see a neko PBPA? Or do I need to go and get it all set up?

Nearly done. This game has not been at my top priority as thus I have focused less on the Neko PBPA because I have limited access.

[Korts]

Ok so please elaborate on OP as well as explain why you referenced a non-existent case.

And I don't know why I haven't done this yet.

unvote, vote: MafiaSSK

[Korts]

The case on MafiaSSK is not just the vote to L-1 on OP--that is a big point, but there is also the talk about a non-existent case when he had barely accused OP ever.

So please get a lynch together people.

[Korts]

Ho hum. (pun intended.)

I don't see the point in the quote you're pointing at, either, hohum. I see what you're trying to say, but to say that it's fabricated is an understatement.

Let me make this clear: you think that simply because Empking expressed an intent to lynch farside, he was going for a

quick

lynch? I don't see the correlation between conviction and speed, like you're implying.

Though OP is starting to look like someone we should consider, as he seems to be the only one really pushing the whole lynch emp today thing.

I was one of the first people who started pushing the Emp wagon if not the first; however I'm on the fence about the whole "don't lynch his role" argument.

I think he's a better D1 lynch target than Neko.

I need to go back through the thread and reread the arguments for and against lynching him based on a power role and see if I can draw my own conclusion.

After this comment I really want neko lynched. If he's scum, hohum is probably one as well.

These two quotes summarize my problem with hohum quite well. I also distinctly remember a connection to OP which I can't seem to find. I would try researching that further if I wanted a hohum lynch.

But right now, I would like a MafiaSSK wagon plz.

Satisfied?

[Korts]

Korts: Have you ever played with dcorbe? Hi hohum!
I ask because people are metaing with mafia so I want to see what meta you have on the player in question
I'm not really satisfied at the moment no. It really weak reason at the moment.
1) He talked about emp pushing a quick lynch. This is false. Emp was just pushing a lynch.
2) is he disagree's with saving Emp based on his role. It's his opinion. Do you really think scum would fight on something like that?

I have. And I don't see that his meta has anything to do with a supposed correlation between conviction and speed, nor with deflection off neko in favor of the bullshit case that was Emp's. And compare the roles: neko was PGO, Emp was tracker. His call that Emp's role is, for lynching purposes just as useless as neko's is utter nonsense. Like I said, it smelled particularly like deflection.

unvote:
vote: Korts

I really hate your stalling at this point.

BTW nice alibi-vote. Weren't you convinced of Empking's guilt a moment ago? My "stalling" was over a case that was no longer relevant to discussion, while I kept actively scumhunting; I don't see how that is anything compared to your projected conviction in the Emp-case.

On another note completely I really get scum vibes from Korts that just aren't going away. His reasons for hohum and case is really lacking.

Meh. It was a pretty good starting point for Day 2.

Is there anything that I actually need to address in your quick analysis of me?

[Korts]

@Korts: Did you read the case or do you just want me to answer that last question because that is really a bad comment.

I read it; you alternate between points that I have already responded to and vague bullshit accusations ("follow, follow and follow") so I didn't feel it needs any response. Nevertheless I've been attacked before for "ignoring" cases on me. So,

do

you want me to answer anything in the case?

[Korts]

@Korts: Was this

I agree with Shanba on the Empking wagon when it comes to Empking's role, and I agree that his craplogic and tunnelvision isn't scummy, only anti-town. If the majority wants him for a lynch, he'll still be around tomorrow, but tracker is possibly the most useful role in the setup for town, and the least useful for scum.

a breadcrumb?

No. What would I be breadcrumbing here?

[Korts]

So who wants to join me in the SSK lynch?

[Korts]

Because he opportunistically jumped on OP's wagon to L-1, and to defend himself he initially referenced something that didn't exist. From Tan's version of the story I didn't get the feeling they talked much about OP other than being uneasy about him. Referencing a non-existent case implies, to me, a lazy way out of explaining opportunism (L-1 vote).

So, wagon?

[Korts]

Neko: Basically we were concerned about his lack of posting and his behavior, I know in the end I felt i was scummy but not enough to vote on at the time.

This is what I was talking about, farside. Even though none of the relevant keywords are present I'm fairly certain Tan was talking about speaking to MafiaSSK regarding OP's scumminess.

[Korts]

Sooo. I see MafiaSSK is still not lynched...

[Korts]

I am sorry for this, and especially because this game needs any active player it can get, but I have no time for mafia whatsoever at this point in my life.

I'm sorry for the trouble I may be causing, but

mod: please replace me

[Korts]

I can confirm that I was targeted, although whether it was by Shanba I don't know. I would also like anyone else who targeted me to claim so.

[Korts]

Actually, Shanba, there were three deaths, not two. and looking at the roles, I'm very surprised that Oman (PGO) died and the SK didn't. The possibilities are he was blocked, the SK is NK-immune, or the SK and someone were switched by a bus driver; since the first could only have been the JOAT considering farside and Shanba's night action claims, and the third is also the JOAT's ability, I'm looking at you,

neko

DGB. You haven't answered farside's question: who were switched? Whose names did neko send in last night?

[Korts]

EBWOP: I'm thinking the third option is most likely btw, seeing as there were three kills and there are no active killing roles.

[Korts]

Ah, right.

[Korts]

Hmm. If hohum wasn't swapped, who shot him? There were two shot players and one slit throat; the latter is obvious SK, the former is mafia and PGO very likely.

Also, considering the role resolution order in the second post, I wonder why DGB isn't dead.

mod:

if the doctor protects someone who visits the PGO, will the protected player survive? Also, if the SK is night kill-immune, will they be immune to the PGO's shots as well?

A theory I have is this: mafia and SK both tried to kill farside, and doc also tried to protect her. DGB switched farside and Oman, and all three targeted OmanPGO instead--killing the doc and one scum, but not the SK, because they have NK-immunity. Unfortunately this theory doesn't explain why DGB is still alive... If DGB was protected, the doc wasn't shot by the PGO but by mafia, but then why would hohum be dead?

[Korts]

Paula the Paranoid Paranoid Gun Owner : Paula doesn't trust easy. She's jumpy and she thinks everyone is out to get her. And she packs a pistol. Shoot first ask questions later, is her motto. I'd recommend you don't make any sudden movements or loud noises.

If anyone should target you at night they will be killed, no matter their intentions

.

I'm thinking DGB might be a SK since she isnt' dead.

vote: DGB

I would be inclined to buy this, but why would she switch her target with someone else?

[Korts]

Well yes, that explains all the deaths. But why would DGB swap her target and the PGO? It doesn't really make sense to me. If she wanted to get rid of the PGO, she could simply have killed him, instead of speculating on whether scum will try to kill you or not.

On second thought though, she may have fakeclaimed her night actions--but that wouldn't explain why both doc and scum would be so thick as to target the PGO.

[Korts]

farside, you can now see that my apprehension concerning hohum was justified--I think my case on him presented yesterday was enough to keep him from a powerful role.

OP, Shanba, and Korts are scum. Shanba most likely from vibes. Korts because of reasons mentions previously. Same with OP

Heh.

vote: MafiaSSK

If this vote needs to be explained at all, you need to view MafiaSSK in isolation up to this post. You haven't once mentioned reasons for voting me. Add to this yesterday's referencing a non-existent OP case, and I see a pattern of lazy opportunism. Note how SSK's most recent scumlist strangely coincides with farside's suspicions on two out of three points (and the third probably differs only because farside's third one was SSK himself).

[Korts]

Oh really? Look at post 951 and various other posts along side it.

Hm, I skipped that post for some reason. Fair enough in that you raise a couple points and express general suspicion. A couple points: you call me misinterpreting the time difference between farside asking and stating the time limit during drafting stage a possible scumtell--which I don't see how it could be, considering that scum wouldn't have any particular motive for that. You also call my reasoning for trying to block rotation inadequate--without any justification of your own. Then you FoS me based on the minutiae of an offer I made--ignoring the clause of "unless I have good reason" which IMO I had (this would be a point that I can concede if you could actually give a sensible argument as to why my reasoning was inadequate in the first place). Also, you come in with a baseless hypothesis that I'm somehow breadcrumbing something that would make no sense to be breadcrumbed as scum.

Tan and I both explained it.

Please link to the post(s).

As to your scumlist, I disagree. Shanba is generally pro-town, OP is middle of the road, and me you've only recently jumped on. The reasonings you give are not adequate by far, especially considering how you only produced a case on OP after I'd called you out on referencing a non-existent one; also, your only point against Shanba is "vibes"--which is basically an admission that you have nothing and are just going with the flow.

[Korts]

Okay, I'm ready to vote orangepenguin. I blocked him last night.

[Korts]

Korts is there any reason you are holding off on your vote?

I didn't want to vote until you checked in--you were a JoAT last night, with a roleblocking ability still available.

Since you apparently didn't block, I'm comfortable voting now.

vote: orangepenguin

I really don't get scum targeting scum on this.

unvote:

I'm talking about OP, jailing Emp day 1

Why unvote with this information?

[Korts]

Good game. Sorry about the replacement issues, and thanks for the good modding, shaft.ed.

I'll post some comments maybe, maybe not. depends on how lazy i will be.