Mini 692: Boost Mafia (Game Over!)

[Huntress]

Hi! I'm reading and will catch up asap.

[Huntress]

Unvote

for the moment.

I've finished my initial read-through but it's a lot to swallow at one gulp so I'll probably take some time to fully digest it all. My first impressions make me suspicious of Electra, iLord, eldarad, sthar8 and springlullaby/Guardian although this may change when I've delved deeper.

There is, however, one thing that stood out from right at the beginning (post 16) which I don't think was addressed.

Finally, we're going to want to know what the boost did to the best of the boostee's knowledge, so we can continue to use it effectively, so if we do boost a protown power role, then we would potentially have to out that role the next day.

What makes you think that the benefits of outing these power roles would be greater than the benefits of keeping the details of the roles secret?

[Huntress]

Huntress, so it looks like you think Incognito's town?

What do you think about his not commenting on Electra in the beginning?

I don't think he's scum with springlullaby/Guardian but I'm not ruling out the possibility that there might be more than one group, or that they may both be townies. It's just that of the two, I think SL/Guardian more likely to be scum. Bear in mind that this was from an initial read, some of which was quite heavy going, so I'm pretty sure I haven't caught every nuance yet.

As for his not commenting on Electra in the beginning, I note that he seemed more interested in other people's reactions to her and didn't comment on the claim itself but he explained this in post 85 which I found plausible. I haven't done an in-depth study of anyone yet so I might well change my mind after further investigation.

[Huntress]

Seriously, though, if you had to vote/boost, who would it be for?

I'm not ready to vote for anyone yet but if I really had to it would be Electra at the moment for wanting to out the boosted powers among other things. She is the first on my list to look at in depth. As for boosts, I just don't know at the moment.

Sorry, I haven't really been following this game for a little while.

Finally, we're going to want to know what the boost did to the best of the boostee's knowledge, so we can continue to use it effectively, so if we do boost a protown power role, then we would potentially have to out that role the next day.

What makes you think that the benefits of outing these power roles would be greater than the benefits of keeping the details of the roles secret?

Uh... to determine if we want to boost the person again? Obviously the ideal boosts for the town are boosts on town that cause the best effects. I would consider things like extra cop investigations, roleblocks, etc, to be the best effects while things like night immunity or an extra vote or something like that (just theorizing) would be nice, but don't really give the town much information. So if someone only gets an extra vote the next day from boosting, I'd rather not boost them again.

You've described the benefits of outing the roles here but you haven't answered my question or apparently considered the dangers of outing them. Are you assuming the boost will make them permanently NK-immune?

[Huntress]

HI Huntress! Long time since NG 576

Hi! Good to play with you again

@Mana_Ku, Huntress, and Random Gem: How have you felt about this thread so far upon replacing in? Have you found it to be a difficult read?

It certainly took a lot of getting through, too much to take in at one go! I think I got the gist of it from my initial read-through but I will need to go through it again in conjunction with individual reads on each person before I'm really up to speed. Once I've done that, and posted the results, it will be easier to keep up with the current posts.

[Huntress]

My first impressions make me suspicious of Electra, iLord, eldarad, sthar8 and springlullaby/Guardian although this may change when I've delved deeper.

Lots of suspicion . Are these all about equal levels? Can you order them possibly? Who is most suspicious (Electra?)? Least? Can you say anything about why these players peaked your interest?

They're in no particular order at the moment. I'll go into more detail when I've done the individual reads.

[Huntress]

This is the first of my individual reads on players. I'm trying to avoid repeating things which have already been looked at but I may not always succeed.

So to try to aid this, I'm going to put myself up for being boosted, and also claim-ish. I don't have a role, so I'm vanilla, however my role PM says that if I'm boosted, I'll gain information about the town (reworded, of course). I don't mind claiming since I'm not a power role, and if I'm not boosted, then Mafia have no reason to kill me, and I think that if I can get information, then it's a smart choice for a boost.

Here Electra claims to be vanilla but also claims to have a role PM which is clearly not vanilla; and a role which gains information about the town if boosted could just as easily be given to mafia as to town.

@ TD - you don't know. I am hoping the fact that there was no night (aka the mafia would not have been able to discuss this as a strategy) and that I did it so quickly works for me. In addition, mafia would not know that there would even be roles where it's stated what type of general thing a boost might do for you.

How do you know that the mafia would not know there could be such roles? They might have similar roles themselves. And how does the fact that you did this so quickly prove anything?

I think in terms of responses to my original post… first I appreciate the boosts, and I hope that you’re doing so because you think I’m town-ish.
Second, in terms of suspicious responses – Crazy’s “I’d like to just play normally and ignore all this boosting stuff” seems weird to me, it’s a bit passive, and sort of seems like scum trying to have a “safe” opinion. I find eldarad’s post to be unscummy, as I think that there’s no reason for scum to be the first to “react” to such a unique post. :p I also find iLord’s post to be unscummy for a similar reason.

You are misrepresenting Crazy here. He did not not say "ignore all this boosting stuff”. What he actually said was "I'd rather play normally and then find someone pro-townish to boost. I think it's likely that everyone will get at least something from being boosted... so I don't think boosting Electra is conceivably better than boosting anyone else at this point." Why is it 'passive' and 'like scum' not to give his boost to the first person to ask for it? Later on, in post 286, you write, "I know that I at least am being very careful about boosting people, and that before final boosts, I plan to reread the thread and decide which people are the least likely to be scum." So why did you think Crazy was scummy for showing the same caution? And why is it unscummy for eldarad and iLord to be quick to react?

@Huntress: Do you see anything suspicious from Electra that doesn't have to do with boosting/theory talk/setup talk?

The main thing is that, except for one or two of her more recent posts, she seems to be observing rather than actually scumhunting. She almost seems to be using her case against Crazy as an excuse for not going after anyone else, yet when she details her case on him she's listing things that are anti-town, not necessarily scummy.

[Huntress]

Do you think she is ignoring other cases besides Crazy then? Do you think her observing is scumy or just anti-town?

Apart from one or two of her more recent posts she seems to be just responding to questions, not asking them. The observing is a possible scum-tell but I would have to do a meta on Electra before deciding if it's actually scummy for her or not.


From an individual read of iLord's posts I get a much more townie feel than I did from my initial read-through of the whole thread.

Mana_Ku, RandomGem and Huntress - we need this town way more active, and you've had enough time to catch up by now. Post, boost and vote asap, please.

I've been posting in case you hadn't noticed! I mentioned earlier who I would vote for at the moment if I really had to, but if you're desperate for me to vote I can always vote for you . I'm not going to boost anyone just yet.

[Huntress]

After doing individual reads on the following players, Elderad and Electra are my top suspects at the moment, Skillet/Manu_Ku I'm not sure about and iLord, Jahudo, sthar8, fuzzylightning/RandomGem and TDC are looking town-like so far. I still need to re-read Incognito, Raging Rabbit and Springlullaby/Guardian.

Elderad will probably be getting my vote (I'll have more to say about that later), unless it's one of the three I haven't finished looking at yet, and I'm still waiting for Electra's response to my comments in post 458.

As for a boost, TDC is looking most likely at the moment.

[Huntress]

After doing individual reads on the following players, Elderad and Electra are my top suspects at the moment, Skillet/Manu_Ku I'm not sure about and iLord, Jahudo, sthar8, fuzzylightning/RandomGem and TDC are looking town-like so far. I still need to re-read Incognito, Raging Rabbit and Springlullaby/Guardian.

Elderad will probably be getting my vote (I'll have more to say about that later), unless it's one of the three I haven't finished looking at yet, and I'm still waiting for Electra's response to my comments in post 458.

As for a boost, TDC is looking most likely at the moment.

Further to the above, I've just finished my read of Raging Rabbit. There are a few things I'm going to check again later but for the moment he goes into the middle of my list, alongside Manu_Ku. Next job is the case on Elderad I promised earlier and then a read on Incognito.


@ Electra: As I said above I'm still waiting for a response to post 458.

[Huntress]

I'm defining vanilla as not having a role. Boosts are specific to this game, and anyone can be boosted, so if I don't get anything unless I'm boosted, I'm vanilla to me.

I wouldn't have described an information role, however limited, as vanilla; but I guess we can agree to differ on that one.

Why would the Mafia assume that town had these roles even if they had similar roles? It's just too much of a leap. People just aren't that smart/bold. :p The fact that I did this quickly means that it was an easy thought process because I was telling the truth. If I was lying, then I'd have to think through much more to make sure I didn't say anything that would screw me up.

I would never take it for granted that someone couldn't be smart enough to think that quickly.

In addition, mafia would not know that there would even be roles where it's stated what type of general thing a boost might do for you.

How do you know that the mafia would not know there could be such roles? They might have similar roles themselves.

I think you missed this bit. You made a statement that the mafia "would not know" something. How do you know that? It could be infered from what you say that you know what roles the mafia

do

have.

Second, in terms of suspicious responses – Crazy’s “I’d like to just play normally and ignore all this boosting stuff” seems weird to me, it’s a bit passive, and sort of seems like scum trying to have a “safe” opinion. I find eldarad’s post to be unscummy, as I think that there’s no reason for scum to be the first to “react” to such a unique post. :p I also find iLord’s post to be unscummy for a similar reason.

You are misrepresenting Crazy here. He did not not say "ignore all this boosting stuff”. What he actually said was "I'd rather play normally and then find someone pro-townish to boost. I think it's likely that everyone will get at least something from being boosted... so I don't think boosting Electra is conceivably better than boosting anyone else at this point." Why is it 'passive' and 'like scum' not to give his boost to the first person to ask for it? Later on, in post 286, you write, "I know that I at least am being very careful about boosting people, and that before final boosts, I plan to reread the thread and decide which people are the least likely to be scum." So why did you think Crazy was scummy for showing the same caution? And why is it unscummy for eldarad and iLord to be quick to react?

He said play normally and then find someone to boost later. I take this to mean, ignore boosts, don't talk about them, and then pick the least scummy. I'm mainly advocating talking about the strategy behind boosting. Mafia would obviously not want to delve too deeply into a strategy because it would hurt them.

So you called Crazy suspicious based on what

you

decided he meant, not on what he actually said.

---------------------

Huntress continues to look like a fine catch of fresh scum. She may not be leeching or following the crowd like crazy was, but her entrance named nearly half the town as possible suspects, which is suspicious for the reasons that Incog has already enumerated in guardian's case.

So it's scummy to mention that as many as five players had given me reason to look closer at them from a quick initial read? Considering there are likely to be around threeish scum I don't think five is excessive. Neither do I think that Incog's comments re: Guardian apply here.

Furthermore, the only specifics we have from her are a case against electra, a claimed info role, after she was boosted. Now, I'm not going to say we should treat electra as confirmed town (my straw men wouldn't be that obvious Wink ) but this seems suspiciously like scum trying to eliminate a dangerous role without using up their NK. Given the information in-thread, I can't think of any situation short of mod-confirming electra as scum (Patrick, not elmo) that could possibly make electra the best lynch today, before we've gained any info from her claim or fake-claim. Assuming the absolute best about huntress, this is still a waste of her time, and the town's, especially so close to deadline.

I started with Electra because she was the first to catch my attention. I was doing my read on her and getting my thoughts together before she was boosted. What would have been the point of not posting it? I still had questions I wanted answered. Please don't forget that I'm still catching up and didn't have the opportunity to raise these points at the time they originally came up. Remember, there's also the possibility I might not be alive tomorrow. Would you rather my thoughts on her remained hidden?

Boost: TDC

- I'm sticking with my earlier decision on this one.

I'm not giving my boost to sthar because although I didn't find him scummy when reading his posts in isolation I still have a lingering doubt from the impression I had of him when I did my initial read of the whole thread. And his current scramble to divert attention from Elderad back to me combined with his desire to supress discussion of my other top suspect obviously doesn't help.

@ Sthar: The reason I haven't been saying much about others is that almost all of it has already been said, at length, earlier in the thread, and I see no need to repeat it unless and until I am making a case against someone, as I will be doing on Elderad. That's why I've just been saying whereabouts on my list they are as I finish my individual reads. Contrary to what you are saying, I haven't been spending my time on Electra; I've barely looked at her since writing post 458.

[Huntress]

eldarad - his first posts read pro-town to me, but his three-scum theory seems way too far-fetched. I don't think SL faked her anger to distance herself from scumbuddy Incognito. Even if scum had planned this beforehand, SL came into the game late, and so I don't think she would have really been a part of this discussion. Furthermore, Guardian would definitely have not been part of this discussion, and so I don't really see how this could be.

Quote credit fixed.


A brief summary of my reasons for voting Elderad:

1) His too-quick boost of Electra.

2) His pushing of the Skillet wagon, which already had two random votes on it before he added his, for reasons which look like making a mountain out of a molehill, the molehill being Skillet's joke and theory discussion.

3)

Crazy

- as much as I like people agreeing with me, I am surprised that springlullaby pulled Incog up for referring to my opinion, but completely ignored Crazy doing the same in a much more blatant way.
I also don't like the continued assumption that Electra's "information" will be a cop investigation.
vote Crazy

What "continued assumption"? The

only

thing Crazy ever said about this was "The problem is... the information Electra gives us is not testable. What if she claims an innocent on Player X? How would you test that?" (post 151). Electra had said earlier "I don’t know what kind of information I get, but I do hope it’s something cop-ish, and it certainly would be nice if I got scum out of it.", so this wasn't an assumption by Crazy but a point about a possible scenario.

So his only reasons for voting Crazy were that Springlullaby ignored him and Crazy's "assumption" about Electra's possible information. Definately very flimsy reasons for a vote.

4) The fuss he made about iLord switching his boost to Electra.

Vote: Elderad

In other news Incognito has overtaken Springlullaby/Guardian on my scum-o-meter but I haven't finished my read on them yet so this may change.

[Huntress]

Hi Green Crayons!

So it's scummy to mention that as many as five players had given me reason to look closer at them from a quick initial read? Considering there are likely to be around threeish scum I don't think five is excessive. Neither do I think that Incog's comments re: Guardian apply here.

It could be. As Incog pointed out, scum have more incentive to accuse a greater number of people: since they are looking for easy lynches, they want to be free to move their vote (or opinions) around without looking suspicious. Normally this argument is very weak when applied to a replacement, because a new perspective in the game may be at least a little more paranoid than others. Under such circumstances, the argument that you are simply vomiting forth any useful information might hold some water. However, in this game, we are required by a game mechanic to publicize our opinions on who is town as well. You failed to mention who had given you the most boostable impressions, leaving me to wonder why you chose to release one type of information without the other. I conclude that you were either very intent on helping us find scum, or you were trying to keep "avenues of suspicion" open for later exploitation. Given the information that has resulted from your "deeper look" I find it much more likely that you simply didn't want to commit to calling anyone protown.

When I did my initial read I wasn't thinking about who to boost, just looking for possible scum.

I started with Electra because she was the first to catch my attention. I was doing my read on her and getting my thoughts together before she was boosted. What would have been the point of not posting it? I still had questions I wanted answered. Please don't forget that I'm still catching up and didn't have the opportunity to raise these points at the time they originally came up. Remember, there's also the possibility I might not be alive tomorrow. Would you rather my thoughts on her remained hidden?

I don't care about your questions and probing before the deadline, or before the boost. Once we had boosted electra, especially under a deadline, a townie would have evaluated how useful her information would be to the town. You might still have posted it, but I would expect at least some effort to

find lynchable scum

instead of what we got, which was, "I'm posting!"

Your statement about not being alive tomorrow is ridiculous. In fact, I'd be glad if scum killed someone who isn't contributing anything relevant to town discussion, and killing scummy townies would be a welcome assistance.

You imply that I'm not making any effort to find lynchable scum and yet, in the same sentence, you quote a couple of words from a post that reports the progress of my continuing individual reads, my read on iLord to be precise.
I note that you address the second to last sentence of that quote but not the last one.

I still have a lingering doubt from the impression I had of him when I did my initial read of the whole thread.

In other words, "I don't want to call him scum, but I'd like to be on record against him in case his wagon becomes convenient." This further validates my suspicion of your list of suspects.

I'm perfectly happy to call you scum if you want me to, but I'd rather record accurately my current level of suspicion against you.

And his current scramble to divert attention from Elderad back to me combined with his desire to supress discussion of my other top suspect obviously doesn't help.

"But look at these other undesirable things he's doing, that should make his points less valid." And do we

really

need to discuss why electra should live until tomorrow?

No, we don't need to discuss why Electra should live until tomorrow. So why are you raising the subject? Was it to avoid commenting on the first part of that quote? Come to think of it, is that an admission that you

are

trying to divert attention from Elderad?

The reason I haven't been saying much about others is that almost all of it has already been said,

Bull. This view is incompatible with your stated reasons for uselessly pushing electra.

The points I was raising with Electra were things I couldn't find answers to in the thread. I had questions about others but all that I wanted to ask had already been asked and answered in the thread and I didn't see the point in repeating them. If I should want clarification on anything you can be sure I will raise it when I need to.

Contrary to what you are saying, I haven't been spending my time on Electra; I've barely looked at her since writing post 458.

Apart from one or two of her more recent posts she seems to be just responding to questions, not asking them. The observing is a possible scum-tell but I would have to do a meta on Electra before deciding if it's actually scummy for her or not.

Elderad and Electra are my top suspects at the moment [...] I'm still waiting for Electra's response to my comments in post 458.

@ Electra: As I said above I'm still waiting for a response to post 458.

And, of course, the first 2/3 of your last post, which I'm sure everyone can find.

Post 478 was a reply to Jahudo; 497 was an update of my current opinions on most of the other players, it mentioned Electra but gave no reason for you to assume I had spent any more time on her; the note to her in 521 only took a few seconds of my time; and 538 was just quick replies to her comments. None of them required any additional research. So what is your point here?

And the point isn't that you've ignored everyone else, it's that we don't have a solid or reasoned opinion on

anyone

else. The most specific you've gotten (aside from your recent ad hom against me) is:

iLord, Jahudo, sthar8, fuzzylightning/RandomGem and TDC are looking town-like so far.

I guess you must have completely overlooked post 545, which I posted nine hours before you posted this, and which contains my case against Eldarad. And what ad hom do you mean?


I've got to stop now to do some cooking. I'll reply to the rest of the posts later.

[Huntress]

Why?

I'll be able to answer that better when I've finished my reads. I haven't consolidated my thoughts on them yet.

Please don't forget that I'm still catching up and didn't have the opportunity to raise these points at the time they originally came up.

That makes sense, but looking at Electra will not help as much in finding scum today since she is not a lynch choice. I think there’s a handful of people that are essential to the catch up reads when looking at a lynch choice IMO {Jahudo, Guardian, Incognito, iLord}.

No Eldarad there is very interesting.

I was giving a suggestion for a catch-up read. Those four people, {Jahudo, Guardian, Incognito, iLord} have had suspicions throughout the day and still do. Eldarad has suspicions but nothing anyone has caught from the past except what Guardian said about eldarad’s post 32. I do advocate a closer look at eldarad’s past posts but I didn’t want to say that there was anything there yet because I need to look myself.

But most of my reasons for voting Eldarad come from the past! And there has been suspicion on him right from the beginning so why are you suggesting there wasn't? As for your suggestions for a catch-up read, they're a bit late because, as you will have seen from my posts, I have finished my individual reads on all except Guardian and Incognito, who I am working on now.

A brief summary of my reasons for voting Eldarad:
1) His too-quick boost of Electra.

Why do you think that’s scummy?

Because it seemed too quick. He boosted her in his very first post for making an early move but in his next post he said, "But also note that I was trying to start a boostwagon too.", from which I infered that this was originally partly a gambit. In the same post he gives what is apparently his only reason for supporting Electra, "And, as Electra said, for a scum to make that leap of faith about the existence or otherwise of boostable vanilla townies, or whatever, is pause for thought." His only other comment on Electra is in post 234 where he says, "You have a point that Electra has kept a low profile since her initial entrance. Her last post where she says "early game is as boring for scum as it gets" is a bit worrying, isn't it, given her apparent boredom with the game...". But despite it being "a bit worrying", he is still content to leave his boost on her.

4) The fuss he made about iLord switching his boost to Electra.

Can you elaborate on why the fuss looks scummy?

The bit that, if anything, bothers me the most is how iLord unboosts someone he thinks is town in order to have the top two in his list as the ones he boosts.

Why on earth should it bother him so much that iLord wanted to boost the two he feels most certain about? That's what I found odd. It would have made more sense if he was bothered by iLord boosting Guardian instead of Electra in the first place. I couldn't think of any pro-town reason for him doing this so I assumed he must be doing it to make iLord look suspicious. After all, Eldarad called for someone to boost Electra, so why does he then jump on the one who does?

I don't see the eldarad case, I still have him as likely town.

What is your opinion of his reasons for his votes on Skillet and Crazy? I'd be interested to hear this from Jahudo too.

[Huntress]

I want to know why you made the comment earlier that Incog was more scummy than me -- why did he get more suspicious than me to you before you did your read?

That came from impressions I got while re-reading others, and particularly while checking points for the case against Eldarad. But I need to look at the quotes that gave me those impressions in their proper context before drawing any more conclusions from them.

[Huntress]

Let us assume for a moment that you are correct and sthar is trying to keep the focus on you rather than me. Do you think it is scummy for players to speak out against wagons that they disagree with, or to push other wagons that they think have a better chance of lynching scum?

Not as such, but it can be when combined with other factors.

So do you think that both of Today's boosts (Electra and Sthar) are poor choices?

I wouldn't have chosen either of them; not Electra as she is one of my top suspects, nor Sthar for the reason I gave in post 538.

How was my boost of Electra too quick? (Rather than just "quick"?) Do you disagree with my "leap of faith" logic regarding Electra?

See my reply to Jahudo re: the boost in post 565. As for the leap of faith, I don't entirely disagree with it but I don't give it as much credence as you seem to be doing.

Do you think my boosting of Electra harmed the town? If so, how? If not, how is my boost scummy?

It will only harm the town if she is scum. I just don't think the reasons you gave for thinking she is town were strong enough to keep your boost on her; particularly in view of your comment in post 234.

2) His pushing of the Skillet wagon, which already had two random votes on it before he added his, for reasons which look like making a mountain out of a molehill, the molehill being Skillet's joke and theory discussion.

Why are the presence of random votes significant?
Crazy pushed the Skillit wagon too, for virtually the same reasons as me. Why do you think that is?

I don't think that the random votes are significant; I was just noting that this wasn't a first or second vote on Skillet. I don't know why Crazy pushed that wagon, nor do I agree with the point he made with his vote which, however, was

not

the same point you made when you voted Skillet.

What "continued assumption"? The only thing Crazy ever said about this was "The problem is... the information Electra gives us is not testable.

What if she claims an innocent on Player X?

How would you test that?" (post 151).

Bolded part of your quote...
Contrast with:

I don't have a role, so I'm vanilla, however my role PM says that if I'm boosted, I'll gain information about the town (reworded, of course).

I don’t know what kind of information I get, but I do hope it’s something cop-ish

So Crazy focussed on "I hope I'm cop-ish" rather than "I don’t know what kind of information I get."

The trouble with clipping quotes is that it sometimes takes things out of context. What I actually said was:

What "continued assumption"? The only thing Crazy ever said about this was "The problem is... the information Electra gives us is not testable. What if she claims an innocent on Player X? How would you test that?" (post 151). Electra had said earlier "I don’t know what kind of information I get, but I do hope it’s something cop-ish,

and it certainly would be nice if I got scum out of it.", so this wasn't an assumption by Crazy but a point about a possible scenario.

Also note that in the same post, in a response to TDC on the subject, Crazy says, "and I'd like to see Electra's clarification on that", which shows he didn't have a closed mind on the subject.

So his only reasons for voting Crazy were that Springlullaby ignored him and Crazy's "assumption" about Electra's possible information. Definately very flimsy reasons for a vote.

You missed the most important part - the fact that Crazy agreed with EVERYTHING I said consistently up until post 166 when I turned around and voted for the person who had been blatantly sheeping off of my opinions.
Can you think of a pro-town reason why Crazy would do that? Do you think it is scummy for me to react to that behaviour in the way I did?
Why did you totally ignore this when you summarised my reasons for voting Crazy?

Your statement that Crazy agreed with EVERYTHING you said consistently up until post 166 is blatantly false. The only things he seems to have agreed with you on are the points raised in your first three posts, mainly the comments in post 32 about the boostwagons. Why should you object to him agreeing with you on that?

In addition, there was also the possible double-standards from sl that suggested possible sl-crazy linkage.
Do you think possible linkage is a good basis for a vote? If not why not?

If you saw double standards from sl that might have been a basis for a vote on her but why on Crazy? If player X seems to be buddying up to or ignoring player Y, which would you call more scummy, the one doing the buddying etc.? Or the one on the receiving end?

But most of my reasons for voting Eldarad come from the past! And there has been suspicion on him right from the beginning so why are you suggesting there wasn't?

What do you mean by this? Who was suspicious of me right from the start?

This was in reply to a comment by Jahudo. It was iLord who showed an early suspicion of you.

[Huntress]

When I did my initial read I wasn't thinking about who to boost, just looking for possible scum.

So you chose to ignore a significant game mechanic and barrier to lynching during your first read? Like I said, given the quality of information that we have recieved, I don't believe you.

That's your choice; but I don't see how I could choose who to boost without first discounting those I thought scummy. Having finished my initial read I looked at Electra first, partly because because she was my highest suspect at the time, but also because so many were prepared to boost her so I needed to be sure of my read on her in order to take a decision on that too.

You imply that I'm not making any effort to find lynchable scum and yet, in the same sentence, you quote a couple of words from a post that reports the progress of my continuing individual reads, my read on iLord to be precise.

I'm not sure how I could have been more explicit with that statement. And your "progress report" gives us exactly

zero

information, which is basically my whole point.

So telling you that a player I originally thought possible scum now gives me a townie feel after a more focused read is giving you

zero

information is it? If you wanted me to expand on it you only had to ask. And if you had rather I hadn't said it at all ...

I started with Electra because she was the first to catch my attention. I was doing my read on her and getting my thoughts together before she was boosted. What would have been the point of not posting it? I still had questions I wanted answered. Please don't forget that I'm still catching up and didn't have the opportunity to raise these points at the time they originally came up. Remember, there's also the possibility I might not be alive tomorrow. Would you rather my thoughts on her remained hidden?

I don't care about your questions and probing before the deadline, or before the boost. Once we had boosted electra, especially under a deadline, a townie would have evaluated how useful her information would be to the town. You might still have posted it, but I would expect at least some effort to

find lynchable scum

instead of what we got, which was, "I'm posting!"

Your statement about not being alive tomorrow is ridiculous. In fact, I'd be glad if scum killed someone who isn't contributing anything relevant to town discussion, and killing scummy townies would be a welcome assistance.

You imply that I'm not making any effort to find lynchable scum and yet, in the same sentence, you quote a couple of words from a post that reports the progress of my continuing individual reads, my read on iLord to be precise.
I note that you address the second to last sentence of that quote but not the last one.

Ok, I'l do it now.

That last sentence is a manipulative strategy using a fallacy known as a "straw man" in which you assume the weakest and least relevant argument possible on my side in order to make my argument appear less valid. I'm pretty sure everybody saw it, categorized it correctly, and ignored it, because it bears no relevance to the discussion.

No. It wasn't a strawman. It was a genuine question which you have avoided answering and have tried to excuse yourself by calling it a strategy. So I'm going to ask it again. Would you rather my thoughts on Electra remained hidden?

So why are you raising the subject?

Um, you accused me of attempting to "suppress discussion" on this topic. So, you brought it up. So, what's your point here?

Waaay to take things out of context! Go back and look at the original posts. I'd quote them here but I realised that would be falling for your diversion tactics.

The points I was raising with Electra were things I couldn't find answers to in the thread. I had questions about others but all that I wanted to ask had already been asked and answered in the thread and I didn't see the point in repeating them. If I should want clarification on anything you can be sure I will raise it when I need to.

So all that stuff about how important it is for you to express your opinion on every subject no matter how irrelevant to the current discussion fits into this how?

Pardon?

Actually, that post was typed mostly before your post, but due to the family emergency I didn't have enough time to revise as I would have liked. Regardless, what are you trying to say with that "nine hours" nonsense?

It just seemed odd, that's all, but emergencies I understand so I'll ignore it in this case.

And what ad hom do you mean?

And his current scramble to divert attention from Elderad back to me combined with his desire to supress discussion of my other top suspect obviously doesn't help.

This is pretty much a textbook example of attacking someone to decrease the value of their arguments. It may not be as personal as some of the examples we've already had in this thread, but that doesn't make it any less fallacious.

That comment was just part of a quick explanation of why I wasn't joining your boostwagon, and was a description of how I saw your actions, not of you personally, so I think 'ad hom' is a misnomer here.

You missed the most important part - the fact that Crazy agreed with EVERYTHING I said consistently up until post 166 when I turned around and voted for the person who had been blatantly sheeping off of my opinions.

Your statement that Crazy agreed with EVERYTHING you said consistently up until post 166 is blatantly false.

Massive QFT to everything that eldarad has said so far.

I don't know where he got the number 166, but your emphasis is clearly in the wrong place.

The emphasis was Eldarad's, not mine.

I want to remark at this time that I have an odd vibe against Huntress; everything mentally is telling me that she is town, but I have this weird gut that she is scum; when I played with her previously I got this overwhelming town-vibe from her, now I get a neutral vibe.

Could that be because last time you

knew

I was town? . But I'm aware that the fact that I'm not fully caught up yet is affecting my posting a bit and I'm sorry about that. Still doing my read on Incognito.

[Huntress]

I'm not completely done, but I'm really comfortable with iLord's criticism of jahudo and sthar's/eldarad's criticism of Huntress - moreso than my criticism of Rabbit - mainly because I don't think either jahudo or Huntress respond to their criticism as diligently, thoroughly or convincingly as Rabbit has done (though not to say I still don't find Rabbit suspicious, just that I think jahudo and Huntress' response to being put under scruitiny has led me to believe that they're more likely to be scum).

What is it exactly about my responses that make you think that?

Still don't know what to think about Huntress. I mentioned previously that I didn't have much of a problem with Crazy but Huntress hasn't really done much to really base my read on. I do, however, almost get the impression from her posts that she's sorta succumbed to the idea that she might be the D1 lynch, so her seeming lack of urgency to finally update all of us on her thoughts is somewhat bothersome. I haven't looked into how many games she's in currently so I don't know what her division of time and labor is but yeah, just throwing that out there.

Pardon? Where on earth do you get that impression from? I'm no more likely to be lynched at the moment than you are. There are only two votes on each of us at the moment. You may be "just throwing that out there" but if you're trying to push a lynch on me you're going to have to provide evidence, not just unwarranted slurs about my commitment to the game. I might be wrong but I'm guessing this is some kind of pre-emptive OMGUS attack in response to the increasing suspicion I have on you that I mentioned earlier. I'm hoping to have my read on you finished by the weekend.

[Huntress]

Errr, Huntress, where do I even

suggest

that I'm going to attempt to push a lynch on you?

I saw your post as an attempt to push for my lynch without committing to it yourself; especially coming as it did after Green Crayons's post. But it could be that my read of your post was affected by my annoyance at your implication that I was giving up.

Of the two two vote wagons I prefer Huntress.

Why is that? Looking back through your posts I can't see any reason for this decision.

Before I start, I just want to disown Skillit's weird "illogical" argument against Electra that occupied the first few pages of his posts. It was dumb (to be frank), flawed and pointless.

Huntress

, how does this affect your opinion that my pushing of Skillit was scummy, given that GC -

who shares the same role PM as Skillit

- believes that Skillit's point was flawed and pointless?
Do you disagree with GC on this?

It doesn't affect my opinion at all. Why should it? It doesn't change what was said and done at the time, or throw any new light on it. I think GC may have been a bit harsh here but that's something to note when looking at Skillet/GC, which we're not doing here.

Not as such, but it can be when combined with other factors.

So, in this specific case, (ie, sthar trying to divert attention from the eldarad wagon) what other factors exist to make you believe that sthar is not town?

I haven't said I believe he is not town. In fact, I still have him down as probable town but, as I said earlier, I still have a lingering doubt from my first impression of him.

So if you had a second boost vote (you don't because you replaced in late, and then avoided expressing any positive opinions on other players for a while) who would you boost?

Probably iLord at the moment.

See my reply to Jahudo re: the boost in post 565. As for the leap of faith, I don't entirely disagree with it but I don't give it as much credence as you seem to be doing.

What part of the 'leap of faith' logic do you disagree with?

I just don't think it's as strong a town tell as you seem to.

On what basis do you believe that my opinion on the leap of faith is not sincerely held?

I never said I thought it wasn't.

Given that the majority of players agree with my 'leap of faith' logic, how can that possibly be used as part of a case that I am scum?

I didn't use it in my case against you.

Because it seemed too quick. He boosted her in his very first post for making an early move but in his next post he said, "But also note that I was trying to start a boostwagon too.", from which I infered that this was originally partly a gambit.

What do you mean by my boost vote being (partly) a "gambit"?

Your comment about starting a boostwagon gave me the impression at first that you may have been doing it to see who jumped on; but that initial impression changed to the feeling that the comment had just been an excuse to start the wagon.

I think the leap of faith is a sufficient reason alone for boosting Electra and a majority of players agree with me. So you need to explain not why I am wrong (I may be wrong, but that doesn't show I'm scummy as 6 other players made the same mistake) but why I am scummy for putting that argument forward whereas the other 6 players who didn't put the argument forward but who did agree with the argument are not scummy.

As I said above, I didn't use it in my case against you. I never said you were scummy for using that argument.

*Shrugs*
It is a bit worrying, but not worrying enough to unboost Electra. Especially since a number of players appeared to be bored with the game at that time.
In any case, I think the Electra boostwagon will have analysis value in the future.

I don't think 'bored players' or analysis value are sufficient reasons.

I don't think that the random votes are significant; I was just noting that this wasn't a first or second vote on Skillet. I don't know why Crazy pushed that wagon, nor do I agree with the point he made with his vote which, however, was not the same point you made when you voted Skillet.

Why is the fact that there were votes already on Skillit significant? You seem to be trying to suggest that I picked Skillit that there was already a half-formed wagon on Skillit and that was why I decided to push him.
Is that an accurate assessment? How does that hold up now that you have accepted that the presence of pre-existing votes for Skillit isn't significant?

Yes, I think that's an accurate assessment. The other votes weren't significant in themselves, as they were random, but the fact they existed

was

significant.

How can you use pushing the Skillit wagon as a scumtell against me whilst at the same time claiming that it isn't a scumtell against you/Crazy?

Where did I claim it wasn't a scum tell against Crazy?

[Huntress]

You missed the most important part - the fact that Crazy agreed with EVERYTHING I said consistently up until post 166 when I turned around and voted for the person who had been blatantly sheeping off of my opinions.
Can you think of a pro-town reason why Crazy would do that? Do you think it is scummy for me to react to that behaviour in the way I did?
Why did you totally ignore this when you summarised my reasons for voting Crazy?

Your statement that Crazy agreed with EVERYTHING you said consistently up until post 166 is blatantly false. The only things he seems to have agreed with you on are the points raised in your first three posts, mainly the comments in post 32 about the boostwagons. Why should you object to him agreeing with you on that?

OK, so he agreed with everything up to post 79, and then made a point of repeating his complete agreement with post 32.

Let's look at what you are calling sheeping.

Your first post was 14 in which you commented on the mass claim.
Crazy's first post was 28 which did not in any way sheep yours.
Your second post was 32 where you discussed boostwagons, mentioned the leap of faith, and voted Skillet saying his theory felt like reaching.
Your third post, 48, was a reply to iLord about the order of lynching and boosting.
Crazy's second post was just a promise to post later.
In Crazy's third post, 79, he votes for Skillet for an entirely different reason than you did, comments on four other people, and then makes the comment "Massive QFT to everything that eldarad has said so far." That single comment is the

only

thing you are basing this claim of "massive sheeping" on! And post 151 implies that he was just referring to posts 14 and 32.

Sheeping as I understand it means following another player's suspicions, reasons and votes. Crazy did none of this.

Now answer the original questions:

Can you think of a pro-town reason why Crazy would do that? Do you think it is scummy for me to react to that behaviour in the way I did?
Why did you totally ignore this when you summarised my reasons for voting Crazy?

My point is that he didn't do that.

If you saw double standards from sl that might have been a basis for a vote on her but why on Crazy? If player X seems to be buddying up to or ignoring player Y, which would you call more scummy, the one doing the buddying etc.? Or the one on the receiving end?

If there is linkage between two players then both players are linked. Combined with the massive sheeping Crazy had been doing on me, I thought my vote would be better on Crazy.

So if a scum buddies up to a townie then they are equally suspect? That seems to be what you are saying.

[Huntress]

Huntress, Electra, sthar8, and Eldarad: Do you support a Jahudo lynch?

I'm coming round to the possibility but I'd still prefer an Eldarad lynch. I didn't get a scummy vibe on Jahudo from my initial or individual read but since then I've been feeling a bit more uncomfortable about him. I will have another look at him to see if I can work out exactly why.

I will reply to Eldarad later but my first impression of his last post is that he's being extremely selective about the bits he responds to.

[Huntress]

Well, I've re-read Jahudo and I still don't see the case against him. I think the discomfort I had about him came from the way he seemed to be trying to direct others, including me, as to where to look and was keeping a fairly neutral stance. This isn't necessarily scummy but it could be. It may be just a matter of play-style but I would need to do a meta on him for that and I don't have time at the moment but I might be able to manage it tomorrow afternoon. I've read iLord's and Incognito's cases on him but I don't find them convincing. I couldn't find Guardian's case if there was one.

So I'd rather not vote Jahudo today. I'd still much prefer to stick to Eldarad or if necessary switch to Incognito (yes, I know I haven't written up my case on him yet).

I know I've still got to reply to Eldarad's last post, and others, but in the meantime where does everyone stand on him? (mainly addressing those who haven't said in the two or three pages).

Incognito has asked me to claim. I'd rather avoid doing so unless absolutely necessary but if I will if I need to.

[Huntress]

It's <48 hours before deadline. I don't see how you think waiting until you claim is going to help the town at all.

Because I'm still hoping it won't prove necessary. The only ones asking me to claim so far are my two top suspects. I'd rather wait until I hear what others have to say than give further information at the request of those I think most likely to be scum.

[Huntress]

Because you are saying that my pushing of Skillit is scummy, yet someone who is guaranteed to share Skillit's alignment is saying the same thing.

The fact that Green Crayons disowned Skillet's theory doesn't mean he saw it as scummy. See the last two paragraphs of post 559 for his comments.

But you actively avoided the sthar boostwagon. That doesn't sound like someone you think is probable town.

I avoided it because I was less sure about him than I was about others.

You are happy that my stated opinion as to why I boosted Electra is sincerely held?

No. I don't know whether it was or wasn't. We won't know that until your status is revealed.

I didn't use it in my case against you.

Lies.

A brief summary of my reasons for voting Elderad:

1) His too-quick boost of Electra.

Because it seemed too quick.

He boosted her in his very first post for making an early move but in his next post he said, "But also note that I was trying to start a boostwagon too.", from which I infered that this was originally partly a gambit.

In the same post he gives what is apparently his only reason for supporting Electra, "And, as Electra said, for a scum to make that leap of faith about the existence or otherwise of boostable vanilla townies, or whatever, is pause for thought."

His only other comment on Electra is in post 234 where he says, "You have a point that Electra has kept a low profile since her initial entrance. Her last post where she says "early game is as boring for scum as it gets" is a bit worrying, isn't it, given her apparent boredom with the game...". But despite it being "a bit worrying", he is still content to leave his boost on her.

This quote is your reasoning as to why (1) indicates that I am scum.

So my boost was too quick. I already explained my reasoning for the quick boost. That means that you do not think my reason (the leap of faith) is sufficient for a boostvote.

You are misinterpreting this. It's right that I did not think it was sufficient for such a quick boostvote. BUT NOWHERE did I say that you were scummy for the 'leap of faith' itself.

Yet you also accept that my opinion is sincerely held.

No. See my comment on this above.

Explain how this is indicative of scum.

The fact that you are trying to put it across that I accepted something I didn't is indeed indicative of scum.

You also think I should have unboosted because of #234, so again I need to ask whether you believe whether I sincerely hold the opinion that Electra's claim is townie because of the leap of faith.
If you accept that I do hold that opinion sincerely then how can you make the judgement that the slight element of doubt that may have been introduced because of Electra's choice of words (about scum being bored when she herself was showing signs of boredom) outweighs the leap of faith?

See my comment on this above.

I don't think 'bored players' or analysis value are sufficient reasons.

But you are also saying, as part of (1), that when I didn't unboost Electra because she appeared to be bored, that was scummy of me.
I'm explaining that Electra being bored is not an indicator that Electra is not town.
You appear to be disagreeing with me.

I meant that your statement that "a number of players appeared to be bored with the game at that time" was not a good reason to continue with the boost, but I think I may have missed the point you were making there, so thanks for explaining that here. Which players were you refering to, by the way?

Where did I claim it wasn't a scum tell against Crazy?

Awesome.
Is Crazy a townie?

Yes, but townies sometimes do things that can be scum tells too.

"Massive QFT to everything that eldarad has said so far" covers:
massclaim isn't a breaking strategy
boosting Electra
boostwagons can give info so let's use them right away
voting Skillit for reaching

Note that you are now using two of those things as reasons why I am scum. I don't get the impression from 151 that Crazy was

reducing

his agreement with me. I understand how you have a strong incentive to so do.

Crazy didn't boost Electra
He didn't join any boostwagons
He didn't vote Skillet for reaching. He used his own reasons for voting.

Just typing "QFT" does not equal sheeping.

Sheeping as I understand it means following another player's suspicions, reasons and votes. Crazy did none of this.

---------------

That said, now that Huntress is at L-2 and the deadline is right there, she should certainly be thinking about role claiming really, really soon.

Huntress, I didn't want you claiming right at this very second either.

So what do you call "really, really soon"? This looks like backtracking.

[Huntress]

Huntress:

Up until this last page or two, your posting pattern in this game has been sporadic at best. I wrote my post suggesting you claim real, real soon at 2 days 2 hours before the deadline if I remember correctly. I actually didn't even expect you to respond to that within two hours time; taking your posting pattern into consideration, I thought you'd be more likely to return to the thread like a day before the deadline actually, which is about the time I would consider an L-2 claim in a 'No Lynch' at majority game to be acceptable.

My posting's been sporadic because I've been spending my available time reading, then posting when I've got something to say or when I'm replying to posts. I'm in the middle of replying to Green Crayons post at the moment but as I rarely get uninterrupted time to concentrate until the rest of the household is asleep it can take a bit of time to get a long post together. (I've been interrupted twice while just writing this.) I can assure you though, I am on and reading two or three times a day, sometimes more.

[Huntress]

No. I don't know whether it was or wasn't. We won't know that until your status is revealed.

I was asking for your OPINION.
Given that you are voting for me - and this is one of the 4 stated reasons you have given for your vote - I think it is reasonable that you tell the town whether YOU think I am lying about my reasons for boosting Electra.

I did give my opinion! My opinion is that I don't know. You were trying to imply that I accepted that you were being sincere. If I did that, why would I be trying to lynch you? It wouldn't make sense.

Nice how you avoided answering the question that causes your case to unravel. By not answering you manage to respond to the rest of my post with "N/A"

Your questions were based on a repetition of the false implication that I believed you.

As you haven't mentioned the other points in my post, can I assume that you accept them?

Yes, but townies sometimes do things that can be scum tells too.

Heh. So, given that you know that a townie can do that thing, explain how it is a scumtell against me.

I would have switched my vote to Incognito but that wagon seems to have been deserted too so I'll leave it on Eldarad for tonight and see what's happening in a few hours time. I'll look at the other posts in the morning.

[Huntress]

Not really, but Jahudo's the only other option at the moment and I don't want to put him too close to a hammer when I'm not around to react to a claim. Still not happy about voting for him anyway, but it would be better than a no-lynch.

[Huntress]

It looks like it's time for me to claim.

I am pro-town and I can boost one player during the night. There was no role-name or title on my PM.

If I have to vote for Jahudo in order to get a lynch I will but I would very much prefer a lynch of Eldarad or Incognito. I think there are enough people posting regularly to get a lynch on one or the other before the deadline if you start moving your votes now. How about it?

[Huntress]

No. It has to be another player. As for Crazy, I suspect it was the problem of keeping up with the long posts, rather than the role, that made him decide to leave.

[Huntress]

I boosted iLord last night.

And now I'm thinking I may have made a mistake by replying to Eldarad's question earlier:

So if you had a second boost vote (you don't because you replaced in late, and then avoided expressing any positive opinions on other players for a while) who would you boost?

Probably iLord at the moment.

Although it was before I claimed, so it was probably a quite innocent question, but I think I'll be keeping quiet about whom I'm intending to boost in the future.

[Huntress]

Although it was before I claimed, so it was probably a quite innocent question, but I think I'll be keeping quiet about whom I'm intending to boost in the future.

Probably

a

quite

innocent question?
What's with all the qualifiers here? Do you think it

wasn't

an innocent question? That I was somehow trying to find out who you planned to boost at Night

before I even knew you had the ability to boost

? Is that what you're suggesting?

Though I could see "booster" as a scum role, too,

If the scum had a booster it would be a reasonable assumption for them to make that the town had one too, so the more info they could get about who people were willing to boost, the better. You asked me that question because I hadn't said who else I was willing to boost. In hindsight I can see a possible motive for it. Even if the scum don't have a booster of their own they might have guessed at the existence of one.

Did you kill Guardian last Night?

No.

[Huntress]

I don't really understand how this follows. If the scum were assuming that the town had a booster because they had one, why would they boost a player based off of your non-existent second boost before they knew you had a boosting ability? And I'm not entirely sure what assumptions you're making re: your boosting ability affecting their decision to boost someone.

I was implying that they might want the information to help decide on a night kill, not a boost.

I'd still like to force a claim, in order for us to be able to better reeavaluate sthar. The extra nightkill gives me shivers.

Even if a claim doesn't benefit town? Or do you have reason to distrust him?

Electra posted while I was doing mine. Reading her post threw me off so I went ahead and reread Electra's claim post. I thought she claimed she received information about how many people of the town performed night actions, but apparently it wasn't in that original post of hers. Did my memory just elaborate her initial claim or did this specificity ever occur?

You may have been thinking of TDC's speculation in post 46.

[Huntress]

Huntress, before day's end you claimed that you had this case against me that was going to pretty much bring the wagon of death to me.

Wow! That's quite an exaggeration . Would you care to point out where I said that? I believe I said I was suspicious of you and was doing a re-read.

Do you still think I'm scum? If yes, can you explain why in as much detail as you possibly could? If no, can you explain why in as much detail as you possibly could?

Yes, I still think there is a reasonable likelihood of you being scum, but the detail will have to wait until after Christmas now.

Everyone: Is there any reason I should save the second vote, or can I just go ahead and demonstrate, to prove my claim?

It seems a waste to use it just to prove your claim. I can see it as being useful if we are ever in danger of failing to get a majority in time for a deadline. One extra vote then may make all the difference.

Huntress, I forgot if you mentioned, but what is your role's flavor?

There was no role-name or title but the wording indicated flavor of a spiritual nature.


I'm going to be very short of time over the next few days. I'll try to get some posts in if I can but no guarantees.

[Huntress]

I haven't been able to look at this since my last post but I hope to get down to it tomorrow.

[Huntress]

I haven't been able to find time over the last few days to really look at this game but I should have time to catch up now. I'm going to re-read Jahudo first and then review my case against Eldarad as he is my top suspect at the moment.

@ TDC: What are your reasons for choosing to boost Eldarad? A glance at your posts shows hardly any comment on him; just a brief comment when you boosted him right at the beginning of the game and a statement later that you don't see the case against him and still have him as likely town.

[Huntress]

My re-read of Jahudo hasn't changed much apart from lessening my suspicion of Incognito. I hope to have my comments on Eldarad up tomorrow now that my RL routine is back to normal.

[Huntress]

Just checking in. (For the second time. My first post a few hours ago was lost.)

I'm sorry, what did this reread entail?

What do you mean?

[Huntress]

My re-read of Jahudo hasn't changed much apart from lessening my suspicion of Incognito.

I didn't catch your initial impressions of Jahundo that didn't change apart from a lessening of suspicion of Incognito. Where might I be able to find them?

I was saying here that my re-read of Jahudo hadn't changed much of my views of other players, not of Jahudo himself, whom I had thought was town apart from the comments I made in posts 646 and 656.


@ Iceman: What makes you choose to boost Raging Rabbit rather than the other players?

[Huntress]

I've been held up by other games with deadlines but I should be able to finish my re-read of Eldarad shortly. In the meantime there's no reason not to go ahead and vote for him.

Vote: Eldarad

[Huntress]

Just got a prod. I should have some time tomorrow to get that case up.

[Huntress]

Are you saying there's something else besides the double-vote?

[Huntress]

How is he more scummy than Sthar?

[Huntress]

I still fail to see how anyone can see Sthar as scum.

I didn't like the way he was trying to deflect attention from Eldarad among other things and although an individual read of him made him look more town, my initial read of the whole thread, plus his later posts, make him seem more likely to be scum. He was/You are currently my second highest suspect.

[Huntress]

I didn't like the way he was trying to deflect attention from Eldarad among other things and although an individual read of him made him look more town, my initial read of the whole thread, plus his later posts, make him seem more likely to be scum. He was/You are currently my second highest suspect.

Oh. So your opinion on sthar has changed? When did that happen?
Was there one particular point where your opinion changed, or has it been gradual? Why didn't you mention your change of opinion before now?

It was a gradual change which you can see from my day one posts.
In post 351 I said I thought he was suspicious after my initial read.
In post 497 I said he seemed more town-like after completing an individual read of his posts.
In post 538 I mentioned a concern about him when I explained why I wasn't joining his boost-wagon (second to last paragraph).
Further exchanges with him increased my suspicions.
He rose to second place due to the lessening of my suspicion of Incognito.
The inconsistency between Sthar and Xtomx re: the claim has served to confirm that placing.

[Huntress]

vote iceman
primarily because there is a lack of content, not just from iceman, but from all of the other players who have had that role. Possibly it suggests that there is something in the role PM that incentivises them to keep quiet?

Fuzzylightning seemed to have no problems posting content, and RandomGem had one decent length post (488) which had an interesting point at the end re: the value of a boost on him.

[Huntress]

Xtoxm's claim does seem to make more sense now; but it doesn't necessarily mean that it's a pro-town role.

[Huntress]

I think that makes Iceman L-1. I'm willing to hammer him before the deadline but I want to finish my comments on Eldarad first.

[Huntress]

Ah, sorry. I overlooked your 991 extending the questions in 990 to everyone.

I don't quite see why Sthar felt the need to claim in post 722 in the first place, apart from the fact that you asked him to. He could have simply said that he didn't have a kill. I also didn't like this:

I'd also like to get it out of the way, because it could potentially be devastatingly swingy in a LYLO situation, and I don't want the pressure should it come to that.

726: Good point about the massclaim suggestion.

Looking closely at Sthar's posts, I find no indication that he thought a second boost would get him another double vote; in fact the bit I quoted above implies that he thought there would only be one. Maybe he was just keeping quiet about the possible result of a second boost. Maybe it's random which attribute gets boosted.

[Huntress]

As I said earlier, I am willing to switch to Iceman before the deadline but of the two, I think I prefer Xtoxm.

Unvote
Vote: Xtoxm

[Huntress]

Huntress, why did you never make your case on eldarad?

Still planning to make it, but one thing after another keeps getting in the way. Although most of it is in my previous posts.

I still think Hunt is town, but I guess i'll have to vote her.

Why?

[Huntress]

Crazy looked town, and I think you were then scum's mislynch yesterday.

I meant, "Why do you think you have to vote me?"

[Huntress]

I'm perfectly willing to switch my vote back to Eldarad if he's lynchable today. He's still my first choice.

[Huntress]

Unvote
Vote: Eldarad

I should be around much of the time on Tuesday if a change is needed.

[Huntress]

I should be around much of the time on

Tuesday

Monday if a change is needed.

Fixed.

[Huntress]

I'm perfectly willing to switch my vote back to Eldarad if he's lynchable today. He's still my first choice.

We have two fairly major issues going on here that you have so far totally ignored, and I would like your input on.

What is your opinion on the potential contradiction between sthar's claim and Xtoxm's?

See posts 914, 950 and 1008. Please explain how you can possibly describe these as having "totally ignored" the issue.

What do you think about the Iceman's reason for not using his cop ability? Do you think it is plausible for Iceman to have forgotten his role so soon after replacing in? Do you think Iceman's reason ("I forgot until I was asked to claim") is consistent with his implication earlier that he wasn't posting often because of his role?

1) As he replaced in just before the deadline I can see the point of not using the ability if he really did think it was only one-shot. Better to save it for when he could make an informed decision.
2) Not knowing him, it's impossible to say. There are too many factors that could have affected it.
3) Not really, but I can see a possible way it could be. I suspected at the time he posted 916 that he was just using it as an excuse for not contributing much, which is what prompted my reply in post 917.

Given that you were willing to hammer Iceman earlier why have you changed your mind now that we are so close to deadline?

I haven't changed my mind. Why are you implying that I have?

I can't be bothered to ask you for your case on me again, it's obvious you haven't got one.

My case on you was made here, and further points were made here, here and here. The only thing I haven't done is to consolidate it into one post, add some more comments, and recap some of iLord's points.