Mini 774: Case Closed Mafia (One Truth Prevails!)

[Lindisfarne]

Hello folks.

Four hours until I go to work, so I'm going to catch up and post (by this afternoon, at the latest, if I don't hit it before I post). I should warn you all, I am a bit long winded at times, so bear with me.

[Lindisfarne]

Allrighty:

Random voting degenerated fast, and what followed was a barrage of crap logic. Its in the past but a few things that stuck out:

Millar was damn aggressive. The whole philosophy is bumpkis of not voting until totally sure. An FOS or HOS just doesn't get the job done in my book. When you vote as a townie, its either because you believe that person is detrimental to town, or to put on pressure. Until you get around l-2, its primary use is to put on pressure. An HOS or FOS just doesn't hold the same weight, its not as damning. its just like saying "you COULD be scum! I have my eye on you." Well, yeah, thats how you should be to EVERYONE. No offense, just stating why I disagree with that little philosophy. Other than that, I applaud him for trying to get the ball rolling.

yadda, yadda, going through a bit more, post 49 made me laugh. Firestarter is going on about how pressure on someone is good, and is a good tactic....and he then tells millar to calm down and unvotes him? Wow, way to nix your own logic there.

*note, I am typing as I read, and I'm smiling at how you guys are picking up on these things. I'm glad this game has an observant bunch. so I apologize if something has been mentioned before and I echo whats been said, I'm just voicing my opinions as I go*

Stranger, on page three you goofed, you said firestarter hadn't voted for millar at all, and his last vote was fatchic. Wrong, his last vote WAS on millar (post 35). Unless, I've misread that is.

Basically if I make typing errors or, use the wrong word don't take it too mean something that it doesn't. Half full rather than half empty.

Bollox-ology Im afraid...

You dont mistakenly write the wrong word, wrong letter, yes, not the wrong word.

Upgrading to...

VOTE: millar13

What the hell.

Ok, fire and stranger riding millar was working. he was breaking, but you guys took it a bit far. You were nitpicking over really inane things, like his wording. You should have picked at his logic instead, or forced more out of him. And that vote upgrade was just funky, fire. understandable from the perspective of putting pressure on him, but I hope you start picking more at his logic and less at the way he words his posts.

Typing the wrong word is a scum-tell.
Well lah dee dah...I must be scum then.

Mhmmmm FireStarter you just more and more scummy, as you looking for the smallest of things to blow out of proportion, so you can "justify" your vote on me oncemore.

I'm not giving you the satifisfaction of voting for you yet though.

christ, kids, cut it out. Don't make me get the hose on you.

something I want to make a comment on:

A vote is sacred.

People who vote, unvote, vote and unvote can actually be most unhelpful.

I disagree. A vote is not sacred. Expect to see me put votes around often. Its all a part of the pressure game. I actually find it slightly scummy when people rarely vote at all, especially in the face of good evidence (granted, that is subjective). I find it akin to lurking, its like sitting on the sidelines. So long as the person not voting brings up good content to the game and keeps productive, I don't mind, but it can easily turn into someone just sitting back and letting the town rip each other apart. This doesn't mean I will jump down people's throats for not voting every few days, but its one of many things I keep my eye on. Just an insight into how I play.

Isacc, thank you for post 107.

1. because I forgot you were in the game until I read that. And its a pleasure playing with you in a game.
2. that post lead to firestarter's post 108, which says:

We just found millar13's scumbuddy...

Wow. Instead of trying to properly defend yourself and refute his logic, you throw that out? Aww c'mon. (strike against fire)

Going a bit further, 5 pages in and already it seems like things are getting majorly personal. I think both Millar and firestarter are taking things way too seriously at this point (and thats odd coming from me, I normally take this game to extreme levels of seriousness, and back). It seems like there's a lot of tension. We're all adults here, but I still think I should say, this is only a game folks. Lets try not to rip each other apart when we play.

Ok, millar13, you have 2 hours to post your case on me, Ill be gone for this time.

Next time I log on, I want to see your clear & concise case, in 1 post, got it?

Chill out.

Now you clearly are not just a plain vanilla townie...that is more than clear from post 121. Clearly you are sitting on some sort of power position (I doubt you pro-town, so the assumption almost concretes scum) otherwise you wouldn't be so frustrated and resorting to using offensive language. Why would someone with no real power feel the need to swear and your such horrible and disgusting I do not know.

Psychology is an interesting tool to use in mafia, but you're looking at it the wrong way. Don't assume he has a power role just because he's cursing. People get mad, people get aggressive. it happens. Besides, if he had a power role, he wouldn't be aggressive because of it on the 5th page on d1. Especially not an anti-town power role as you claim.

After millar13's last post, I propose a trade off with him.

Lynch me, and when I flip town, lynch him.

Are we agreed millar13?

Im happy to take a hit for town here, your play is unbelievably scummy.
Not only that, but town have alot of info to work off on others who have blatantly ignored what Ive posted throughout the game.

millar13... What you say?

Fire either has no power role (or a REALLY crappy one) or he is trying a gambit. He had 4 votes on him at the time, so he wasn't in utter danger of a lynch yet, but he wasn't making any fans with any of his arguments. Either way, I dislike how that post was. At its base, assuming on the chance fire is town, it means he no longer cares to play properly, and instead is blinded by a little vendetta. it might seem logical to him, but to me, it just reeks of bad sportsmanship.

Stranger and isacc basically sit back and give millar a pat on the back and say he's doing a good job so far. This reminds me. I hope rage, fatchic, ghostwriter, and pacman end up speaking up some more.

Going through a bit more, this whole thing just degenerates into a mess.

Stupid acting like an idiot with posts like this

First of all... Do Not Abuse Me.
Im not here to be abused by anyone...

GOT IT?

Wow. This is a damn game. Chill out, both of you.

Ok, Millar and fire are pretty jacked at each other, that's for damn sure. But what bugs me is how everyone else can stay outta the spotlight. fire points fingers at anyone that backs up Millar, but no one else is really scum hunting one another, and that irks me.

mother of the main protagonist, probably a vanilla if its true

Don't try to outguess the mod.

OH SNAP!

Im a Vanilla Townie and I'm off to bed.

*points back up to where I said he is either a townie with no power role (or a really bad one), or was trying a gambit*

I dislike seeing people try to figure info from just the name. That assumes the mod isn't competent to prevent his game from being broken. I advise against it.

after the full claim, batt says this:

Wow Millar, first you complain that making a mistake in wording isn't scummy, it just makes you human. Now that it has happened to Firestarter (spelling or wording), you jump on his case for it.

Honestly Millar, you are being a hypocrite over chasing fire based on one word, when you essentially had the same problem before. I think after this game, you two need to bury the hatchet.

Regardless of whether your claim makes since, I will vote you. Why? You claimed vanilla townie. Whenever someone on the chopping blocks claims that on D1, my policy is to lynch them. The reason is because the scum now know Firestarter isn't a powerrole, which increases their chance to NK a powerrole if we lynch/out another role.

Policy Lynches kill innocent people. And on purpose in your case. Look, Firestar wouldn't be NK'd if he claimed or not. No intelligent mafia would waste an NK on someone that can be lynched easily. so even if he didn't claim, it would make no difference.

But the point is: we have a chance to kill someone today. Our BEST BET is to catch scum. Fire may be a bit off (I digress, VERY OFF), but if he is a towns person, him being in the game is helping our chances. Its boosting our numbers. Killing him, if he is a townie, only makes us lose a day we could kill scum, and instantly cuts our chances.

lets assume, for the sake of argument, we have 9 townies and 3 anti town roles.

In one scenario, we lynch off a goon on d1. They kill a townie at night, the following day, we have 8 townies, and 2 goons, an 80% majority.

In the next scenario, we lynch off a vanilla townie on d1, and the scum kill a townie during the night. 7 townies and 3 goons. Our majority during the day drops to 70%

The best thing town has going for it, is that we are the MAJORITY. That is our power. And as such, we need to treat every one of us (townies that is) as a commodity that we cannot afford to lose.

That is my views on the matter.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

A lot of back and forth in this game, and I'm actually a bit torn. My PRIMARY concern right now is not firestarter. I'm actually more concerned about scum hiding in the shadows. There's so much spotlight on fire and millar this whole game, it would be easy for scum to just be quiet and let the day pan out.

This is a difficult situation. On one hand, I don't honestly think fire is scum. I'm inclined to believe the claim. I dislike the logic of lynching someone because they are a vanilla townie. However, I dislike the concept of a no lynch on d1 even more, a no lynch on the first day is like starting the game a man down for town. Also, fire's attitude grates me something fierce.

Bottom line is, I can't see the harm in taking at least a day or two to get some discussion going on our other observations. There is no sense to rush this.

THIS IS WHAT I WANT TO ASK OF EVERYONE

I would like you to pick a person who is most scummy to you right now, and explain WHY they are scummy.

The catch: NO ONE pick Millar or Fire. We've heard plenty over them. We have experienced people in this game, so I'm sure all of you folks who's been quietly observing have something of note to say.

When I get back from work, I'll post who my suspicion lies on (I'm actually torn between two).

[Lindisfarne]

Actually, Firestarter's resignation towards being lynched makes him seem more townie to me. Why?

If he was scum, he I can see acting resigned and acceptant to being lynched as a gambit, and indeed, firestarter did just that back when he was at l-4 (I believe it was l-4 at that point).

HOWEVER. If he was scum, and that ploy didn't work, I would expect some backpedaling. If you're getting closer to a lynch, and being acceptant to the lynch isn't working for a scum, I'd forsee the said scummer to pull back and try a different approach. being resigned to death can be a risky ploy. It seems that no matter what aligment, fire still WANTS to be in the game. If he didn't, he'd vote himself. If scum is playing, and is on the chopping block, and a gambit at acting like you dont care if you're voted off doesn't work, then the only saving grace is for you to pull back from that view and fight, and try to refute whatever logic people have on you.

On the FLIP SIDE of the arguement;

And my guess is that unless someone comes along with the same Townie traits shown by Lindisfarne, then Ill be lynched.

Because I don't think fire is scum, he thinks im town. now THAT raises a few eyebrows in my book. It just smells scummy to me.

All in all though, I cannot support a vote on Fire. He has had some scummy behavior, yeah, but the townie tells I've gathered outweigh them.

Isacc: Yeah, I liked playing with you in Neapolitan mafia, and I've seen you play in other games (we have some of the same friends, and they've pointed you out to me before). Mainly because, I've seen you verbally thrash people before, logically, and just in basic arguments. And I hope some game you'll attack me. I think it'll be fun

Your whole argument on policy lynches I completely disagree with. We can lynch off townies until lynch or lose (granted we do not know what day that is, but for game balance reasons I will assume we have 1 or 2 MLes to use).

Whoa, what? You think its a bad idea because we're free to lynch townies until Lylo? Holy Crap.

lets use an example. 10 players in a game, 3 mafia members. d1, a townie is lynched. N1 scum kills a townie. d2, a townie is lynched. n2, scum lynch a townie. Guess what? on d3, there are 3 townies, and 3 scum. Town has a shit poor chance of pulling out from that. It's possible, but not friggin likely.

So there are two days of mislynches there. After two screw ups, mafia has an INSANE advantage (remember, town is about the majority if mafia is equal to town, it puts town in a position that is hard to pull out from). So after just two mislynches, the scum has the game pretty secure.

Now, granted, we do have 12 players, yes. And who knows what roles are in this game? But don't bank on that. We all probably assume there being a cop amongst us, which is a huge asset to town, especially in this game *points to the theme* but who knows what the scum have up their sleeves to balance things out? It's best to not get too caught up in those or bank on roles.

The main point here; in that game with 10 players, assume the town has a good chance still on d2. It's 3 townies and 3 goons. And what do they have to go on? Two days of interrogations? technically one, since on d1 no one really has a strong grasp on suspects, its mostly the guy that smells fishiest sleeps with the fishes. Mafia is about information. The more days we have to judge reactions, to interrogate, the better.

In the end, This is just personal preference, I guess, but I have to strongly disagree with you Sajin.

Also, lynching off firestarter here will allow his flip to tell a lot. In fact I think its scummy wanting to keep him alive at this point.

What the hell will his flip tell? Unless you're banking that whole comment on him being guaranteed scum, and then you can point a finger at whoever defended him (note: me). That tells you possible info on ONE person, if you kill him and he's scum. That is not telling a lot Sajin. Honestly, enlighten me, how will it tell a lot?

As a side note, I think it's scummy how quickly you people want to end this day. Rushing a day only leads to mistakes being made, and bad judgment calls. But of course, that's all a matter of opinion.

And claiming who we think is town and who is not here lets scum set up day 2 better. We already have a decent lynch.

What? How do you play mafia, honestly, I want to know your tactics, because that belief dumbfounds me, and you too korlash.

I am asking now, on d2, who people are suspicious of for a reason. And there is also a reason why I omitted millar and fire. And if you can't figure that out, you don't know how to scum hunt (no offense).

If people ignore the question, or pull out really obscure or wtf logic on their suspects, I'm going to get a scummy vibe from that. Fire and millar took the spotlight, and all eyes have been on them. Scum WILL fade in the background because of that, and feel safe, they have nothing to fear. I ask who people have their eyes on under the basic theory that townies scum hunt.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, and odd for playing this way, but when I play mafia, I don't narrow my eyes on one person when they are under fire, and just drill them, ignoring everyone else. We have 13 pages here, so I am sure each one of you townies has a mental list of who is scummy and who isn't.

Mafia...why would they? They don't scum hunt, they are the scum. They might keep tabs on certain scummy acts, just to bring up later to try and incriminate people, but they would not be keeping tabs half as much as other townies, especially when theres a neck on the chopping block (this is under the assuming theory that fire is innocent).

Next: I did not ask who you think is town, I asked who you think is scummy. And how in the hell would this help scum "set day 2 up better" or help them "decide on who to kill"? A list of folks townies think are scummy on d1 will help sway who they want to kill? Why? How? Huh? Seriously, im baffled, HOW would that honestly help them? I really don't see the sense in what logic you could have behind that. All you are suggesting is that town not share information. Hell, we might as well not even talk about who we're suspicious of for the rest of the game! Because mafia might play off that and do some sort of super NK that will win them the game.

Don't mind the sarcasm, that just really baffles the shit outta me.

I'm sorry, but it takes more than "you're overdoing this" to get me to relax the pressure.

It looked more like you were just baiting him to look like an ass though. If you peck at someone long enough over trivialities, eventually they will flare up, which will make them look awful. I know this tactic, I used it to get a townie to vote him self at lylo, and quit mafia (newbie 681, if you want some light reading material sometime). It's an underhanded tactic. I don't have a problem with the pressure, but the way you went about it felt a bit off (since I've done the same sort of thing as scum).

Stranger, thanks for giving input on your suspicions.

Does everyone else mean to tell me that out of this whole game, the only one you are suspicious of is Fire?

*side note, I have to cut this post short, I was intending to say a bit more, and go into detail about who I found suspicious, but it's late and I just got off work. Running on 2 hours of sleep in the past 24 doesn't help the brain. I'll hit you guys with it after I wake up*

[Lindisfarne]

Sajin:

@Lindisfarne

1: The first part of your post is a WIFOM argument. Scum could think you would think that and thus adjust their actions/reactions accordingly.

Play mafia more, you'll realize that all interpretations of actions in this game lead to WIFOM one way or another.

It's bad form to flat out say "that's WIFOM" as a defense, or as an attack on something. Guess what, in some roundabout way, everything can be looked at as WIFOM, every action in some respect.

It's all about odds. What is more LIKELY to happen. To me, what I outlined is what I feel is most likely to happen. I've weighed the odds and that's my logic. Just saying it's WIFOM doesn't do crap for an argument, try to refute it with better logic.

But in the end, it's just my assumption. you're totally free to interpret actions how you want.

1:My other quote that this refers to is referring to the possibility of them being either scum or town. Its not useless depends on meta, but I have no idea what the meta of this game would be. But it was a meta argument to counter a meta argument. Neither is that useful to this actual game.

I'm not following what you're trying to say here. Please clarify. (I just got off of a night shift, so my mind isn't working it's best, bear with me.)

3: His flip gives us more information regardless of what direction the flip is. Obviously it would help more if he is indeed scum.

2: The information gained would be the insight into his posts. Because he posted a lot I referred to a lot of information. Knowing the alignment behind 75 posts or whatever he is up to now in the thread adds up to a lot of stuff that can be dug through.

BS. Be specific, since I don't believe this. What posts will reveal information to you depending on his flip? All I see is him attacking miller, and whoever attacked him. How does that reveal a "lot of information". So far this game fire has been mostly lashing back at people like a cornered dog (no offense). If you want to lynch someone for information, d1 is normally not the day to do it.

4: It is not D2, it is D1. I will probably post a list on D2. If not then, D3 for sure. I think we have a decent first day lynch. But giving more info to the scum lets them setup better for the next day. I am not going to example this because no mafia game thread should ever have decent scum tactics posted in it. However right now I think we have a lynch and I would rather us post all the information we have tomorrow. Posting it right now would setup better night actions for scum.

4 "next": So your saying a list of scum does not provide a list of who you think is town as well?


Alex. Don't assume scum wont bus each other. I did from d1 in a game, and when my buddy died on d2, I was in the clear. I single handedly won that game (although it wasn't pretty, I basically verbally abused a townie into self voting at lylo, and they then quit mafiascum. Mr. Flay said it might have been unethical, but still totally legal. I'm a bit too ruthless in how I play mafia sometimes)

Also, you're defending fire something fierce. Hell, I don't think he's scum, but im not going to stand up and act like a big brother, attacking who pointed fingers at him. You seem to have beef with coug, which is interesting to note. And you're earlier meta on him, about replacing him, although I can try to appreciate from a psychological perspective at least, is weak.

*side note: awesome to see more replacements, this place should take off with discussion soon, which will make me happy.*

Yeah. I replaced you as scum therefore I know a bit of your thoughts processes. And maybe that would lead you to think I'm gonna suspect you. Anyway, I don't think I'm gonna pull meta on you. I should study more cases were you're town first.

DONT DARE HAMMER!!!

If you do... I'll pursue you tomorrow till you're lynched...

Fosing me for the first thing I write? Is it because you know I've seen you as scum and think I may tunnelvision you or something?

...Anyone else have a problem with this stuff? He has some crazy meta and tunnelvision on coug, and gives one of the biggest anti-town threats I've seen in awhile.

/will be continued after I wake up, since my work schedule balances out finally tomorrow. I post once a day with my crappy schedule, and each post takes a good deal of time, and its normally when im running on very little sleep, so I have to cut it short sometimes, my apologies.

[Lindisfarne]

Just got home from a double shift, and im dead to the world. sorry I haven't been able to post. My new job is kicking my ass. But I'm off for two days.

Also, Mod, I messaged a friend of mine and told them about the game. They've been on MS quite awhile. If he's available, he'll contact you to replace in. I'll see if I can help fill those other spots too. I wont be able to message them until tomorrow though.

Tomorrow morning, I'm hitting korlash's last post. I have some serious beef with it.

Once again, sorry for the delay. But you can all expect a novel from me in the morrow.

[Lindisfarne]

Starting on page 14:

Sajin:

post 338;

1-Yes lots (not all, but lots) are WIFOM arguements. But clearly I perfer the other glass of wine in this case. Your clearly judgemental on my join date. Do you bow down in homage of 2004 players?

Which "glass" you prefer is fine, but saying "thats WIFOM, scum could manipulate blah blah blah" is not a good counter, defense, or attack on any point of logic. It is a given that scum will try to manipulate any goings on they can in this game, to the best of their ability. Instead of saying it's WIFOM, instead elaborate even more on why you believe the other end of the argument.

I'm not too judgmental on join date. I'm judgmental on how someone is playing. And countering a point with just saying that it's WIFOM, and not backing it up with much more is weak play. No offense intended.

2-3: I can't tell you what information until the flip occurs. The lot strictly refers to him having a lot of posts in the thread which sheds more light on possible information because we now know the true alignment of more posts in the thread. If you don't consider this as information then

Is your response to me saying:

BS. Be specific, since I don't believe this. What posts will reveal information to you depending on his flip? All I see is him attacking miller, and whoever attacked him. How does that reveal a "lot of information". So far this game fire has been mostly lashing back at people like a cornered dog (no offense). If you want to lynch someone for information, d1 is normally not the day to do it.

You say it will reveal a lot of information by lynching him, and yet, you say by a lot you referenced his post count, which I had a counter initially for saying the whole game he spent pretty much defending himself. All those posts of him defending himself don't count if he's lynched, since we'll know what his alignment is by lynching him.

And I still don't believe you, by the way. If you honestly wanted to use his posts as weight on cases against others, after knowing his alignment, you'd feel better about not pushing the lynch so fast. The more fire talks, the more material to work with when his role is revealed. I think you were just wanting a good, quick lynch.

4- I do not see a response.

sorry about that, I normally take all questions, put them in a list on a quick reply page and answer as I go down. I missed that one.

4 "next": So your saying a list of scum does not provide a list of who you think is town as well?

No, it doesn't. I could name two people I think are most likely to be scum. Does that mean I think EVERYONE else is town? HELL NO. Why would you even assume I think that? I asked for the top two scummy people from everyone.

If someone tells me top two, that doesn't mean they only think two people are scummy, or that they think all the rest are townies. It just means that out of all of us, those two are the most likely to be scum to them. I don't see why anyone would assume the others on the list are townies in that person's eyes.

Even so, even if someone made up a detailed list saying" _____, ______, and ______ are scum to me and ______ and ______ are definitely townies" how does that benefit scum? Will they chose their nightkill based off of what one person thinks? Scum will kill whoever benefits them the most to die. Killing one person listed as scum or townie on a player's list does not benefit them much if at all. And if you suggest they would use the list to manipulate a kill to frame someone else: Wake up. Scum can and will do that regardless of a list. Hell, if millar and fire live today, and millar dies in the night, scum could have orchestrated a kill to frame fire (WIFOM, but im using it just as an example, I don't think that situation would happen at all, unless the scum wasn't very bright). Scum can orchestrate such a thing without a list, because those two have animosity in game already.

I don't see how a list will give scum an unfair advantage. If anything, it gives us more material to question one another, and probe each others alignments.

The problem with that post is you went from EVERYONE to just two people. You didn't relate to why, and how it was changed. You over exaggerated and to make matters worse didn't actually bother to quote, which mean you already knew you were trying to make it sound more than it actually was.

I agree fully. Either he was posting whatever he wanted without actually looking up the facts, or he was purposefully misconstruing the facts to better suit his case. Either way is scummy.

It might seem like a null-tell, but after a while enough null tells form a foundational base for a scum member.

I don't think it's a null tell, more of a slight scumtell to me, but still I have to disagree with you; enough null tells does not form a foundational base for a scum member. How can it? It's a null tell.

What would you say if someone suggested a name massclaim?

Personally, I would vote against it. It's a random variable thrown into the pot. If everyone claims a name, the names could be totally eskewed, or as we'd expect. They were given in secret, they should stay secret.

This is the second time you've committed WIFOM, and that along with you constantly saying one thing when the reality is another is really getting on my nerves here.

^ This. The WIFOM bit I don't mind, since his actions can honestly go both ways, and bringing that up doesn't make him scum or town: but he is saying one thing while the actuality is another -Points at millar's quote earlier in this post-

You must be thinking of my Father Mr. Korlash. I'm actually 12th in line for Blackblade and haven't quite mastered Grandeur yet.. ;-; But when I do I'll be putting two islands into play! yeah... Take that...

Oh god, just enough for a counter! U/B never sounded so good...

post 49 made me laugh. Firestarter is going on about how pressure on someone is good, and is a good tactic....and he then tells millar to calm down and unvotes him? Wow, way to nix your own logic there.

How is it nixing my own logic?

You went against your own philosophy. You say in that post that pressure is good, a good tactic, and in the same post, you try to calm down your aggressor, and you even unvote him. You were going against your own philosophy.

[quote="fire]LF, can you point to the part in M13's logic, I or SC should have attacked, it seems you seen something? [/quote]

I am not going to make a case for you, fire.

I admit this looks bad on my part, but Isaac just turns up after Ive tried to defend myself for so long, and imo, without as much as reading anything, he stated what others wrote and instantly placed his vote on me. The post he made this in was his 3rd of the game, the other 2 coming in the RVS. I got highly pissed off that if Isaac is town, he should have thought things over more before jumping on a BW. He did not come across as someone who thought about that instant vote, imo.

Call it meta, but isacc thinks things out quite well, from what I've played with him. There are times in a game that your honest views match what others have said, or that you have nothing else to add. Just because his views matched others, doesn't mean he is a scumbuddy (especially not if it was, as you said, just his third post. You would have had no way to get enough information to judge that). Seems like you got heated up and lashed out, but at least you admit to it instead of trying to cover it up with bad logic.

For alot of pages previous to you replacing in LF, Ive had to defend myself against a barrage, of what I consider to be crap, of attacks.
You came into the game, and took a good look back through the game and gave an assesment I'd attribute to townies. I didn't state you were townie or likely townie to me, just that your first real post was pro-town.

Fair enough.

I cannot elaborate without breaking forum conduct rules, namely referencing other mafia websites and/or ongoing games. Suffice it to say its happened before.

That said, I like your arguments here.

unvote, vote: strangercoug

Wha?

Dodging answering the question, questionable logic in how to play (see beginning of this post) and

Don't OMGUS me and then I may respond to you.

bugs the shit out of me.

Firestar has been coming across as townie in his latest few posts. This neither clears him nor confirms him. With 3 possible new people coming in I don't want to see a quick lynch. I am pursuing another lead for the moment. And his squirmyness as I turned my eye has made me more suspicious.

How? What in his post sounds townie?

Korlash:

I know I've explained it somewhere... But it helps because it gives them info on who to NK in order to set up the next day's mislynch. and it is not WIFOM, it is fact. Posting a scum list right before a lynch is a dumb move. The only people who should do it are the person ebing lynched and the person(s) that are Nked. (And yes, I know no one knows if they will be Night killed which is why it's a dumb move by anyone)

I've explained earlier in this list that there are other ways scum can set things up. Not posting a list of who we find scummy makes no difference, and saying that scum will base choices off that is a reach.

I wouldn't be such a stickler on this if it didn't seem like so many people so absolutely aberrant against sharing information with town.

Becuase they still lead to helping the scum choose and pick their NK and manufacture the next days mislynch. That combined with how obsolete they become only solidifies not doing it, not only does it help scum but it in no way helps town, A.K.A. Don't do it.

Now, I will state that yes, I agree lists become obsolete, but if scum wanted to rip a kill to influence tomorrow's lynch, it can be done easily enough period, without lists. I understand you wanting to be cautious, if that's your playstyle, and I wont fault you for it, but I feel not sharing our thoughts as townies is an anti-town activity, as such I've gotten on sajin for.

Do you disagree with my point on a scum list (with details on WHY we find these people scummy, not just a list; I also wanted reasoning behind it) being a tool to help sniff out scum?

If you don't understand how it can be utilized to find scum, I'll be happy to elaborate on it. I was just assuming everyone would see it's usefulness.

Stretching? it is in no way stetching what so ever. I gave you the opprotunity to answer it and you blew me off. If it was a stretch you should have corrected me then and there.

Fire, just because you "told so much" doesn't mean people won't vote you. I agree with korlash here.

You are the only one of those players calling for more time though.

No, I've also called for more time in a roundabout way.

sadly I feel the extra discussion may lead to you walking, which is going to cause problems in the future... You flip will give town piece of mind if nothing else. You surviving until endgame will definitly decrease our odds of winning. And no, that is not the only reason I want you lynched, but it is a good thing to remember. You're flip also has a good chance of turning up scum, and in the event of turning up town you have been the most centered person today, meaning you will likely have connections to every player, thus giving us that much more to work with.

Peace of mind? how so? I wont have full peace of mind until the game is over. Peace of mind is a horrid reason to lynch. How will his surviving to endgame DECREASE our odds of wining? his turning up town won't give us diddly, although I do think I think I can forsee what scum will try to do if he does turn up town. All of your points on him are HEAVILY opinionated, and none that I've seen in that last post have any good evidence or backing.

i don't personally believe this time is going to help us out. (the fact people seem to be going away from your lynch for instance)

Korlash, I would like to ask you, what is it fire has done that has made him such a scummy target?

You seem almost bloodthirsty for fire in how that's worded, and you strongly don't want town to move from this lynch, therefore you must be deadset that fire is the right lynch for town. I don't want opinions or you're thoughts on how town can gather information from his flip, I want evidence please, what evidence can you show us that marks fire as scum?

You dont want people to move from a fire lynch, so here's your chance. Spell your case on him.

No... it is not... Scum Run Discussion is alway detrimental and disasterous to the town. All my other examples, tl;dr, wow, and whatever else I said is also always bad. Discussion based on false assumptions and misinterpretations or misunderstandings will always lead to the wrong conclusions and thus is always bad. Do I need to go on? Discussion is not "always good, everytime" Cased closed. One truth prevails, yadda yadda... so on and so forth...

Guess what? We don't know who the scum is. So while I agree, we all would; Scum running the discussions would be bad, yes; we have no idea who is scum and who is a townie. Thats what the discussion is FOR. Mafia is played under the premise that scum will act differently than town. Just because scum running discussion can be bad, doesn't mean we shouldn't have discussion at all. That example, on top of the point of you being afraid to post a list because you think scum can manipulate it makes me wonder if mafia is really the game for you. No offense korlash. Mafia isn't a game where we're all mavericks, we work as a team. It's good to have a level of paranoia, yes, but we can't let that cause us to fear discussion.

And of course if my hypothesis is true and this new discusion leads to your wagon failing, and you survive until endgame... It could very well lose us the game if you are town.

Survive until endgame? but you were talking before about how he'd be on the chopping block throughout the whole game if he lives today. You are trying your BEST to make sure fire dies TODAY. Your future logic is fuzzy.

Vote:Korlash

Two things:

1. I want to hear more from you, especially why you think fire is such a menace that NEEDS to die TODAY.
2. Don't take anything I said offensively. I can come off sounding a bit mean at times, and it's not my attention. I just find your logic very questionable.

MOD: I've talked to two players about replacing in for you, hopefully you'll hear from them soon.

* I ended up accidentally miss-pasting things around in the middle of typing that. I've looked it over a few times, but if anything doesn't make sense, let me know, I might have accidentaly lost something.

[Lindisfarne]

Sorry for the double post, I'm glad the two I mentioned above are in the game

Hello guys.

[Lindisfarne]

Sorry folks, new person starting at work, and I'm having to pull a few doubles until they start on monday, as such, I'll be V/LA until monday afternoon.

[Lindisfarne]

Sajin:

@Lindisfarne

1: I got tired of the quadruple nested quotes with long posts all on the same subject. Conversation was lacking especially with out replacements.

2-3: I still think it provides information. This is not a strong argument I agree.

4/next: I think the benefits *ON DAY 1* favor scum over town. Later on, I totally agree with you.

1. Fair enough. Hell, I can agree, some of this is just dragging on far more than it should: and that's a big thing to be coming from me, since I generally write novels for posts.

2-3: I see it providing for very little, but I respect you acknowledge it isn't a strong argument. I think this just ends up a conflict of playstyles, ultimately.

4/next: Actually, for the purpose I was suggesting the list for, to scum hunt, I find it's use to be the OPPOSITE. I find it far more effective early on, in the first two days or so.

My logic:

As I said before, townies will be scum hunting to the best of their ability from d1. Scum have two common (note:COMMON) tactics: to sit back in the early game and let town poke at each other, or try to be vocal, and a key manipulator in the events of the day. Scum wont be scum hunting: they will be keeping their eyes open for scummy behavior to exploit, but mostly they have their own tactics of wining. Asking for a list early on, gives me a good judge on who is actually scum hunting. We've had 22 pages so far, if anyone says they don't have a good read, or don't have any main suspects when confronted, I'll feel something is up. We've had too much happen so far for anyone to have no suspicions. That is how I would have looked at the list, and treated it as a tool to hunt scum by.

You may disagree, but I still believe it's use is best early on (not in the first few pages, but by the end of d1, early d2).

Korlash

However, I would rather our cop investigates someone who will likely be useful, AKA not freaking vanilla, so when and if any massclaim comes about we get more (and more important) town confirmed.

Ok, this point I can agree with. I would rather our cop investigate more...useful players. I still feel fire is town, but I would think that investigation could be served better elsewhere. This is a point I didn't think of kor, kudos.

... No... it is not a reach. Just because there are other ways scum can set things up doesn't change that they can and will also use end game scum lists.

Where did I say we need to do a list at the end of the game? If I'm not mistaken, I was asking for a list for today. I stated my reasoning why earlier in this post.

sharing info is fine, but sharing that specific info right before night is stupid. It in no way helps us and only creates opprotunities for us to lose

WAIT.

Sharing info is fine?

Sharing that info before night is stupid?

That same info, which you said before was fine, helps us in no way? Then why share it period. Your tactic sounds like everyone running around aimlessly with no communication between town. You don't want to share info, your post made that very clear. That is stupid.

The lists scum would give us have the same cahnce of outing them as any other post they make, so it's kinda not necessary for that

read earlier in this post, I said why I feel a list is helpful for catching scum. If you can't utilize that to find scum tells, then fine, I can't fault you if you play a different way than I; but I try to, you know, utilize as much information as possible to determine who is scum and who isn't.

Hell, now I have an argument that makes it anti-town. Do you seriously think this is still worth fighting me over?

Big whoop. I told you how a list can be used to find scumtells, depending on the timing. Threatening me with "anti-town" bs doesn't scare me in the slightest. If you think I'm scummy, vote.

In fact, posting it day 2 does have some higher cahnces of catching scum.

(Although granted in some situations posting at the end of day 1 has higher as well)

What? You've gone on about how its this HORRIBLE idea to post at the end of d1, and now you're admitting that it can have higher results of catching scum as well?

So in a nutshell, you're admitting its usefulness, but your fear of giving scum information is going to hold back gathering more evidence for town?

well I'm hoping my post here has given you some insight into this a bit more. I think he is scum for his claim, I think he needs to be lynched TODAY because of what his surviving will do to the town, be it a wasted cop investigation or a fucked up endgame. Even tomorrow, a lot of time will be wasted on him. He will almost certainly get a wagon formed on him again at some point. All of this is based on my opinions and my experiences if you don't agree his claim is worth lynhing him for and you don't agree letting him live is a bad idea then don't lynch him.

I see nothing scum-like in his claim, and find it believable, I DO agree with your point on him being a wasted investigation however. A wagon can be formed on anyone. We shouldn't lynch you now because you could have a wagon later on you (which can happen) I find that a moot point. Thank you for pointing out your reasoning more though.

*I've shortened this post up A LOT, and took off a big segment here that took me about 30 minutes to type. It was basically points I've brought up earlier in this post, and me being very snarky towards korlash and his attitude. These posts are long enough as it is, so I've omitted a lot to make my posts more focused.

@alex: don't base anything off people's wikis. Hell, anyone who reads mine would really get the wrong idea about me. It's just a little place for some silly info, not the best place to delve playstyle from.

Post 478

UNVOTE

Korlash, 478 put several things into perspective for me. I too find it odd that he finds you less scummy after his tirade on you, and switches to batt. His reasoning on Batt is weak (c'mon, referencing votes in the random voting stage? That's weak, man). Although I don't agree with all of your points, I do see him as a possible waste of an investigation.

(The matter stands that I still disagree with your logic on lists, but you can't win 'em all)

(cut for space) and you guys have posted such an utterly ridiculous Wall-o-text frenzy that it's nearly impossible to keep up. I am a pretty heavy poster at times and I even think it's getting out of hand with the super-massive overly-complicated posts.

That said, people need to start making their arguments consice and organized. Many of the wall posts are definitely NOT necessary or understandable.

^^^ This

Kairyuu- What I don't understand, though, is your vote. Why not take it back off until you have time to tell us why you voted for him in the first place. Why are you so deadset in leaving it on him?

To gauge a reaction, maybe? We've already been over pressure earlier this game, that should be a given.

The modkill thing was clear. I don't know why he suggests after saying someone is town, that he should be modkilled. That's not very cool.

kair said he was confused why fire wasn't mod killed. The rules say you cannot quote you're role PM. Obviously Kair thought this was an infraction of this rule. Shouldn't be that difficult to get

How does 1412 Maple Street sound? There... it's addressed.

I friggin lol'd.

Hello madeofphail.

Mod: is there a way to extend the deadline at all, to give our final replacement more than two days to catch up, post, and debate with us, I believe we're also waiting on some input from a few other players as well

[Lindisfarne]

Batt:

I play under the premise scum are generally more defensive than town in their reactions. What kair is doing is not very scummy, alex is being a bit overly defensive in my eyes. I'd think a townie would be annoyed, yes, but wouldn't fret so much over it, especially when there's only one vote on him.

[Lindisfarne]

Am I correct in interpreting this statement that Mafia rarely take the middle ground in terms of what you're talking about?

You would be correct in interpreting that d1 the most common tactics for scum are to either sit back and watch the days events unfold, or leap head-first and become a vocal figure early on. I'm sure theres several people who play the fence between lurking and being vocal the first day, but that is not the most common tactic from what I've seen.

Explain, in your own words, what you think Kair is doing and why it's not very scummy.

In my own words:

"Kairyuu thinks you're scummy for things he saw during his initial read. He says he has been busy with prom, and senior projects, and has little time to work with. Seeing as I recall how hellish my last month or so of high school was, I'm inclined to believe he's busy with school. The fact he made a goof and posted under an alt further shows me he's trying to post as much as possible with the time allowed.

kairyuu said when he gets time he will post at great length all that you have done that is scummy. I look forward to gaining insight into whatever he's thinking, but I know that badgering him about it or his attitude won't speed things up at all"

There. For the record, I will say I personally don't dig kair's attitude right now; but this is a game where I'm noticing a lot of attitude conflicts. Hell, I had to omit a great deal from my last big post to maintain civility.

Mod: Thank you for the extension

[Lindisfarne]

millar, what are your thoughts on the argument of lynching fire, even if he's town?

Would you prefer a no lynch over lynching him, if no other strong suspects arise?

[Lindisfarne]

Hershal Agasa, Tracker. last night's track was Kairyuu: who did not target anyone.

Now care to explain yourself? Your reasoning behind this had better be damn good.

[Lindisfarne]

The name itself was directly copied and pasted from the PM, so yes, that wasn't an error on my part.

My reasoning on Kair was mostly meta, actually. Him and I have a bit of history together on MS. I know his attitude when he plays. The aggressiveness? It's there regardless of his alignment. Even as a cop, I would prefer to investigate a stronger player that I'm 50/50 on, than a weaker on that I feel is more likely to be scum. From my experience with him, kai is one of those stronger players. It was actually a bit of a toss up between observing him, or you, korlash. But your actions, although I don't fully agree with your logic most of the time, ring very town to me.

I did not have any sort of quote like firestarter.

It went on to say that I am an inventor, and through the use of my "toys" (the word the mod used) I am able to track a single player's actions at night.

[Lindisfarne]

Allow me to clarify things a bit. Well, not a bit, a lot.

Phail doesn't think I am scum because I claimed tracker and he says he's a tracker. He thinks I'm scum because he tracked me, and saw that I targeted both kairyuu, and him. And he claims that due to a drug, he is now a different character.

And he is absolutely right, I'll explain.

I am a tracker, yes. In fact

Kairyuu, did you make a night action last night, or no?

That will settle that.

Note when I described my character, I said I was an inventor who uses "toys" (that was the wording from the PM, but also take note that it is plural). Tracking is NOT my only ability. I have two, actually. Which can both be used each night. The thing is, I had no idea what my second ability DID.

In my role description PM, when describing my second ability, My PM said (wording change to avoid a modkill), That I crafted a new invention that is so advanced, I don't even know what it does! (exclamation kept, as it was in the PM and I found the whole thing a bit funny) Each night, I can target someone with my top secret toy, that it does not replace my tracking ability (I had to ask the mod about this, to verify, it can be used every night with my ability) and can be used on any living player in the game.

It wasn't easy deciding who to test it on, since I had no idea what could happen. I actually thought, at one point, to test it on myself. But I decided to err to the side of caution. That is why I chose madeofphail. Made was a replacement, we had little to go on with him I figured that with a ability that could be either good or bad, it was best to use on someone that I was split on.

You calling me out was a bit of a shocker, I had no idea what happened to you with my device, I sure as hell wasn't expecting it to be the drug from the manga.

That said, I'm glad you clarified just what that ability I have is, but a few things do still linger on my mind.

You said you became a character and received a new role, correct? What of your alignment? did it clarify in the new PM what your alignment was?

Turning a tracker into a vig is an improvement, in my eyes. I am wondering if the drug only has upgrading effects coinciding with the anime? If so, I would assume that, in this game, there is also a Sherry, and the effect on that character would be an upgrade as well.

This is quite a bit to take in and to dwell on, what happens if the drug is used on someone besides jimmy and sherry? would it kill them? would it make them a vig too? How can we best utilize this?

There is still the thought in my mind as well that Made may be an SK, and not a Vig.

What's everyone's thoughts? I can support a lynch on me if we have whatever investigative roles we have investigate Made. I'm trying to come up with some scenarios and percents that best benefit town, but there's too many factors (and it doesn't help that I just got off of work and am dead tired).

[Lindisfarne]

lynch me at your leisure. In the sport of the game, I won't vote myself.

I am a tracker, and I tracked Kairyuu. He did not target anyone.

He refuses to confirm this, and my flip will reveal it, and I'm sure a slew of people will be wondering why the hell he hid this information, when admitting it would have cleared that fact about me (given it seems some people don't believe agasa would be a tracker) It is also startling to me why, instead of talking things out like he was keen on before, he is very blatantly trying to end today. I still have no honest idea what my second ability is, but if made is lying he deserves an award. It has also not been said if he MUST chose a target or if he has the choice not to. This NEEDS to be cleared before today ends. Having a vig choosing on their own who to kill is a liability and a half. Town needs to discuss and plot out who should be targeted beforehand, and weight the effectiveness of choosing a target. I won't participate in that conversation, since my input will be chalked off as scum trying to prod town in a direction.

Disregard this until after my flip, since it obviously won't be given a second thought until then:

D2 had a lot of wonkiness brought out, and instead of properly sorting through it, votes were rushed. I don't believe made is scum, I did target him, and his story is too elaborate to BS.

Bat, throughout this whole game has been sitting 50/50 on my radar. I see him a possible SK.

Kairyuu did not target anyone. Look at how gungho he is about this lynch. Even so, he is a precise player. If he had, in fact targeted someone, he would have used that as evidence against me. His only logic now is that my role reeks of scum. But instead of building more on that case, like he usually does, he just pushes that as hard as he can. I think he, out of everyone, would be the best investigation choice tonight.

Miller's actions d1 speak town.

Korlash I am fairly sure is town. Once you get past the attitude he shows at times, he is logical. He wasn't trying to rush today, and would rather have conversation than a quick lynch. Scum love quick lynches.

Saijin and SC both seemed slightly shifty, but I didn't have enough to go on either of them to peg either down.

I'm not going to contest any votes on me, since I am the best lynch, information-wise, for town today. I'll answer any questions anyone might have for me. It might give you guys some insight tomorrow.

[Lindisfarne]

"Bah"

[Lindisfarne]

Read what korlash said before. I had no idea what that ability was. You never reveal everything. And I never, at any point, said tracking was my only role. This has been covered.

[Lindisfarne]

One minute late on your part there alex.

[Lindisfarne]

Firstly:

Since May 13, 2009 5:52 pm he has been not posting here when he could try to say whatever last words he can to try and guide town into what he thinks is correct.

That is what, 24 hours? I posted a list of my thoughts on who I consider town and who feels scummy. I offered to answer any questions. Direct a question to me and I will answer.

Your new post here makes me think you're not positive on what's going on made:

I did not track both kair and made. I never said I did. I TRACKED kair, as I said. With made, I simply targeted him with my second ability. There was no tracking involved with him. I can only track one person a night. Some people doesn't think agasa should have a tracking ability, yet kairyuu refuses to confirm my result on him, which would be a chip in my favor.

[Lindisfarne]

Wait, saying you are the best lynch for the day is a scummy move to save yourself? You must be one of the most paranoid players I've met on MS.

That's great. But you made that post when you thought you were alive

And I stick with what I said: no questions have been asked directly of me. Korlash has been sorting out the qualms I have with your logic, and the rest of the posts is mostly people saying they wish so-and-so would talk.

I did say I night acted twice though. I tracked kairyuu, which I admitted to, without beating around the bush, after made asked me my role. I did not know what my other ability did, so I wasn't going to put everything out in the open 1. not knowing what my other ability did, and 2. not knowing made's intentions. All I know is I targeted him with an ability, and he, the next day, votes me and tells me to role claim. Don't tell me you wouldn't be cautious in that situation, and spill every detail of your role off the bat?

Made said I targeted him, and as for me targeting kairyuu, he has said this:

Lindisfarne is telling the truth about targeting Kairyuu last night

[Lindisfarne]

@LF: I am neither confirming nor denying that I made an action last Night simply because in a non-lylo situation, a power role counterclaim from scum leads to a 1-for-1 tradeoff at best, and simply losing a scum at worst. Therefore, assuming phail to be scum, he must be completely illogical and irrational to gambit the way he did outside of lylo. The only logical conclusion is that you are scum. Hence, confirming or denying your statement will either a) let you off the hook if I confirm, and I will not let a scum off the hook, or b) provide your buddy/buddies with power role information that the town does not want them to know. Both situations negatively impact the town, and positively impact the scum.

Logic says I keep my trap shut.

Your logic is off Kairyuu.

You say confirming my statement will let me off the hook if you confirm. You then go to say you wont let scum off the hook: if you confirming is a pip towards my claim being honest, why hide it? What is it that makes you so deadset that I am scum?

Also, your logic dictates either made or I is lying, and does NOT take into the account that maybe both of us are telling the truth (which I find to be likely, since I DO agree with you that I don't think made is making his information up).

You're being narrow minded.

[Lindisfarne]

Scum really had a bad stroke of luck in this game. This is also the first game I died twice in. Fake claims, and appeals to logic really couldn't help me in the end. Tracker watched me as I turned him into a vig, what are the odds? lol.

Good game all, nice win, Town.

[Lindisfarne]

I RB'd kairyuu because he was the only player I feared. Isacc was a stroke of luck, I normally kill players on N1 that provide little for town to work with. It was dumb luck he was the cop. Made, we were up in the air over.

IVS and I both sent a different set of actions to the mod. I tried to get ahold of IVS, and he never responded back, so I compromised and told the mod to go with the made/kai/isacc choices. We honestly had no idea what the drug did, so I figured it was probably best to test it on someone who had yet to impact the game at all.

Why did you track me, made, and why did isacc investigate me? I normally don't give off very scummy vibes.