Mini 828 - ProzacMod 3 - Lost Mafia - Over

[VP Baltar]

/confirm

[VP Baltar]

real life day or game day?

[VP Baltar]

Drench's logic checks out.

Vote Locke

[VP Baltar]

Reckoner, as one of the newer players on this list, who do you see as potentially the biggest threats in this game?

[VP Baltar]

Threat, as in formidable opponent.

[VP Baltar]

Just trying to get conversation moving. RVS is pointless.

[VP Baltar]

What is wrong with a Locke wagon?

[VP Baltar]

Seriously though, Drench, are you always this much of a wimp when it comes to wagons? Someone gets two or three votes and you're ready to stop the presses? How do you expect the game to move out of the RVS?

[VP Baltar]

Which votes were serious?

And yes, asking whether a wagon is serious or not is taking a pretty active role in derailing it, whethere you used the word "stop" or not.

Let me put this a different way then, what is your motivation in asking if the wagon was serious or not?

[VP Baltar]

To be honest, I find it hard to believe any such wagon would be serious at this stage of the game.

Are you a Drench alt?

[VP Baltar]

ATTN ALL: Post 50 is directed at Drench. kthxbye.

[VP Baltar]

VP:
What do you think about Reckoner’s reaction to the LL bandwagon?

Anti-town at best.

@VP Baltar and all questioning Drench: Are you questioning him because you think he is scummy for asking about the seriousness of the wagon?

I think it is anti-town to derail a wagon that could potentially move the game from the RVS.

NOTHING major HAS HAPPENED yet this game. So I really don't get how Channel and Locke are acting as if we have had some major scum slips going on.

Just where exactly where they doing that? Anyone can see that the issue Channel and locke were getting at was zoneace KNOWINGLY extending the rvs when there was really no reason for it.

Maybe it should be put another way: Do you really feel that nothing had happened that was worth commenting on? If so, why did you have things to say in your post even if you didn't random vote?

I'm not saying it is a scumtell, but I think it is a reasonable argument to make this early in the game and I'm not sure why you would want to tear it down or stop it.

[VP Baltar]

Wow, Zoneace, you're certainly sensitive about people voting against you. I agree that jason's vote is just sheeping along, but you're certianly having a fit over nothing.

[VP Baltar]

Frankly, you ought to be lynched for being such spaz. Why even play mafia if three votes puts your blood pressure through the roof?

[VP Baltar]

scummy comment and noted.

What is scummy about it?

@jason and zoneace-STFU, both of you, until you actually have something useful to say.

[VP Baltar]

I saw Pokerface do something similar in Cowboy Beebop. It's a good way to get out of early game banter and see who is just making a bullshit case and who stands behind what they are saying.

Ok, fair enough.

I find it hard to believe that scum could get that much emotion into that.

I'm just using you as an example here, Drench, since a few other people said things along these lines, but I am not a fan of this line of thinking at all. Saying someone overreacted too much, therefore they are likely town is very silly reasoning.

jason is pinging the scumdar.

Elaborate please.

@Zoneace-When you were at L-4, did you really think it was a serious concern that four people who rapidly vote you? Why did you keep rounding up to say you were half way to a lynch?

@Jebus-do you think players should always provide original reasoning before joining a wagon?

[VP Baltar]

I realize this, but just because a case has been stated elsewhere doesn't make it any less true or any less representative of what I think.

Well, then, what makes him more scummy than you if you're doing the same thing? Just because you say you realize this is the case, doesn't make it any less so. So, explain what the difference is.

I find it interesting you felt the need to reassure me in the form of 'you're just an example'. Why was that?

I find it even more interesting that you somehow divine I'm trying to "reassure" you about anything here. I said I am using you as an example because if I didn't say something along those lines, it would only be a matter of time before someone would come bungling along and say something to the accord of, "OMG, why are you picking on Drench when player X did the same thing? You must be on a scum team with player X!" When people say things like that it makes me bang my head against the wall...and I don't actually enjoy that. So, I'm saying you're all using the same crappy logic there and it should stop.

btw,

Unvote, Vote Reckoner

[VP Baltar]

I'm

very

good with my vote.

[VP Baltar]

That's certainly compelling. More Reckoner votes.

[VP Baltar]

LL, out of curiosity, what do you think of Reckoner's vote for Jason and defense (?) after being attacked?

[VP Baltar]

Not true at all. However, this game is severely lacking a diversity of voices.

[VP Baltar]

how is quick lynching somemore for being a spaz anything but scummy? dont act like it wasnt. I understand it was in jest (I think), so all I said was noted. You feel your comment wasnt scummy? Please explain, if you wish to push the issue.

No, my comment was not scummy. I was very clearly not serious, which you recognize (you think). In all of the games you have ever played in or read, how many players have been actually lynched over a reason like 'you're a spaz'? I'm going to use my amazing psychic abilities and say zero. My lack of voting for him should have also shown that I was not serious.

Now, judging by your reaction of wanting to sling mud over such a trivial and clearly not serious comment, I can come to one of two conclusions: 1) you were dropped on your head a lot as a child 2) you are scum

Since I think you're a pretty smart guy and your profile pic doesn't show any significant dents in your dome, I'm leaning toward the second option.

[VP Baltar]

then why are you not voting me?

Because Reckoner has still managed to outscum you. Hurts to be second best, doesn't it?

That being said, I think you bring up a relevant point against LL.

I indicated my doubts about Reckoner even when I put my vote on Jason.

That's one of the problems though, isn't it? As ckd said, you're leaving the door open to switch wagons if necessary.

Let me ask you this, what do you think of Zoneace going off the radar for awhile? Do you think makes him more or less scummy than you felt he was before?

[VP Baltar]

I think it was probably sensible for Zoneace to step away from the game for a bit, although having read some meta it seems that his response to the votes was fairly typical of him anyway. I think it's a little convenient that he disappeared just as more votes started to get put on Jason and attention shifted away from him. It makes him a little more scummy in my eyes.

So wait, It's sensible but scummy? So, I did what was best for the town, but clearly that makes me scum????

Could you TRY A LITTLE HARD TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS?! Why don't you just set it up so that you look good no matter which way you vote EVERYONE, set up a little thing like you just set up with me, so that no matter what happens, you don't look bad.

See, that is my exact problem with what LL is saying here. I personally think Zone did the right thing stepping back for a few days to let the dust settle. Even if you want to say it is scummy, that is ok (though I don't agree). The problem is when you are taking both sides on the issue.

@LL-if it made Zone more scummy in your book, and he was one of your main suspects before he took off, shouldn't you be voting him? Explain to me how Reckoner's sheeping onto the jason wagon made him more suspicious than someone you had already found suspicious?

[VP Baltar]

So, I'm scum for... voting jason, despite posting a case when asked to

Well, let us take a look at your case for a moment:

You hammered on the discussion on Zoneace being "late to the party" on serious discussion, which I think was very gun-jumping of you.

What is the scum motivation for trying to move the game forward out of the RVS? How exactly is this jumping the gun? What should jason have waited for to make his vote on zone appropriate in your eyes?

And in your unbearable back and forth with Zoneace, I got frustrated townie vibes from him, while I got the "calm and collected scum" vibe from you.

Not everyone plays as calm scum or acts like they have an aneurism when they are town...and since you don't believe in meta, this means a whole pile of squat.

Also, WTF.

A misreading of a mistake is somehow unconvincing as a scumtell.

tl,dr-Your reasons for voting Jason are heavily padded and it was a very opportunistic wagon to try and get on at that time.

I can't promise a post today. I can promise one in 24 hours time. If I don't, you are free to throw polar bears at me.

tick tock

why is Reckoner more scummy than Jason for doing the exact same thing that you are voting Reckoner for? Or more succinctly, what are your views of Jason?

Because Reckoner is being very opportunistic and not actually scumhunting. That's the difference. As far as Jason, definitely VI but I don't have a good read on his alignment yet. He has made some tremendously stupid statements that could have scum motivations, but he also seems to at least be

trying

to hunt scum (however poorly executed those attempts are). I think there are probably better suspects to be pursuing at this time.

Ah, see, a prime example of this ridiculously scummy crap that is almost too hard to believe from jason:

the fact he can say that he has already found scum... I would like to know how he is 100% sure I am scum... it is a pretty big statement to declare you have found scum.. It is almost like he knows 100% in that statement, that is why I asked can you be 100% certain as he declares I am scum

[VP Baltar]

(Note to self, don't post before drinking caffeinated beverage)

QFT!

And here I thought I was the only one.

[VP Baltar]

@ Emptyger:

This seems an earnest enough attempt at scumhunting, this seems like trying to question people's actual motives and get them to explain themselves, and this is him giving some sort of reasoning for a Reckoner vote (although some of it is regurgitated from other players and it was only after asked to explain it).

I'm certainly not saying he's playing a great pro-town game, because there are just as many examples where he is being scummy and him actively scumhunting has dropped off in times of being under pressure, but there are moments in his play that seem earnest to me.

This seems less true of Reckoner's play, imo.

[VP Baltar]

I'm good with my vote. It'd be nice to have an actual case against which I can defend myself instead of just "Reckoner's play is scummy" followed by votes.

So, I'm scum for... voting jason, despite posting a case when asked to

Well, let us take a look at your case for a moment:

You hammered on the discussion on Zoneace being "late to the party" on serious discussion, which I think was very gun-jumping of you.

What is the scum motivation for trying to move the game forward out of the RVS? How exactly is this jumping the gun? What should jason have waited for to make his vote on zone appropriate in your eyes?

And in your unbearable back and forth with Zoneace, I got frustrated townie vibes from him, while I got the "calm and collected scum" vibe from you.

Not everyone plays as calm scum or acts like they have an aneurism when they are town...and since you don't believe in meta, this means a whole pile of squat.

Also, WTF.

A misreading of a mistake is somehow unconvincing as a scumtell.

tl,dr-Your reasons for voting Jason are heavily padded and it was a very opportunistic wagon to try and get on at that time.

Feel free to reply as you see fit.

[VP Baltar]

Still happy with my reckoner vote. Still waiting for him to reply. Still waiting for townpersons who don't live in the UK to actually play this game and not just pop in every 48 hrs.

[VP Baltar]

Emptyger, who do you think is scum and why? You've been playing this background investigator role for far too long now.

[VP Baltar]

I'd like to hear what VPB thought of my response to his case on me.

Why so impatient?

The reasoning wasn't solid, I'm saying. Scum motivation for trying to move the game out of RVS isn't there, but neither is any solid reasoning.

Yes, but the town motivation of moving the game along is there, correct? How solid of a case do you think someone should be able to bring before voting that early in the game?

Hey, guess what, you can get vibes from people without knowing their meta. I know, crazy, right? Because some Mafia players like myself don't have time to read through pages of old games just to memorize someone's playstyle.

Your vibes are wrong. You don't have to read through pages of other games to check on these things. If player X always acts angry when questioned as town, then that should become less of a factor in your read of them being scum, correct? I'm not saying you have to discount your vibes, but you have to take them in context as well. Skimming a couple iso reads to look for something specific takes all of about 3 minutes.

I failed to see how that was a misreading of a mistake.

A mistake was printed of jason instead of jacob. Jason misread this as an attack on him when it was really just a failed joke.

I agreed with the wagon and added some ADDITIONAL things that were bothering me re: Jason.

My point is that you sheeped onto the case (which you attacked jason for earlier, iirc) and padded your case with bogus reasons to make it look less than completely obvious.

The best example was his bringing up (i think) CDB's wiki entry. It made it look like he was doing something and being helpful, but in reality accomplished nothing.

This is probably the least valid example available.

Santos has replaced Drench

Hey!

re:bussing talk---please stop. I hate bussing talk when there have been no alignment flips. Find scum and you can do wagon analysis later. Doing it now is more likely scum trying to fabricate reasons for voting, and/or working toward chain lynches. + scum points for jason especially

[VP Baltar]

@ Reckoner

1) moving the game out of RVS is more likely to be carried about by town than scum. Plain and simple. More often than not, scum are not going to want to be sticking their necks out early in the game by going after people. They would rather wait for a secure wagon to form and then chime in to try and drive it through.

2) That's how I roll.

3) Ok, I dont' even care about this one that much, so agree to disagree.

4) Then why not just say you are voting him for other people's reasons? Yeah, it's not going to look that great, but it looks a lot better than fabricating some garbage to make your case look better.

5) See, I'm not

that

unreasonable.

*scrolls down*

*sigh* There's no pleasing you, is there, Baltar?

I can vouch for the truth of this comment (ok, sorry. will stop now. )

WHAT!!!!!!!

Could this be VPB and Juls agreeing on something for the first time in three games?!?!?!?! No way!

Awww, you know I think you're the tops...even if we both know every game has to end with us entering a winner-take-all bloodbath in the Thunderdome.

[VP Baltar]

So, which is it?

Basically what I am saying is that it reads to me like scumhunting coming from Jason. The does not mean that I think it is good scumhunting, just that he seemed to be trying to his own ability level. I've never played with him before or seen him in a game, so I jumped on him early for "sheeping", but as the game has progressed that seems to be his modus operandi. In other words, my gut is telling me that jason would sheep as both town and scum.

In other news, I don't quite buy your whole 'feeling out the weirdness' thing here. It's page 12 for crying out loud and you haven't voted anyone. What is your exact plan here, wait until deadline and then plunk down on the leading wagon?

Discussing allows the opportunity to rebut something that’s false, or to get on the table something that’s a possibility. There’s no guarantee that player who notices the possibility will still be alive after the reveal- or the players who would rebut it still be alive either. In short: discussion is good.

Discussing something that has no logical reason to be believed either way is a major waste of time on D1. This is particularly true when you start going down the road that jason was heading where the 'bussing theory' was starting to become a scumpoint. In short: not all discussion is good.

You’ve said that LL is guilty because it seems like he’s bussing Reckoner…
And then you’ve said that LL is bussing Reckoner because they’re both guilty.
That couldn’t be more circular.

So you agree with me that it is a horrible discussion point? Why would you think it's a good idea to even bring to the table then?

[VP Baltar]

Did you breadcrumb anywhere Reckoner?

[VP Baltar]

Since you're claiming, give us your name and full flavor please.

[VP Baltar]

Kate as a cop seems strange considering she's a fugitive for most of the show. What was your question and answer now so if it comes up we know you are telling the truth.

[VP Baltar]

I second Zoneace's question. I don't see what a vote there would be hurting until the best course of action is determined.

[VP Baltar]

Simulpost: Are you scum jason?

[VP Baltar]

Yeah it does kind of, but I probably don't want to get into a big outguess the mod thing here.

A better question would be, why was reckoner breadcrumbing desmond if he is kate?

[VP Baltar]

Here is the post I'm talking about Zone. In fairness, Reckoner does come right out and say that its' from Desmond, so it may not be a breadcrumb at all. Just seemed that way to me when I first read it.

In other news, can someone who watched season 5 more recently inform me if the marshall who arrested Kate even makes an appearance in that season. If not, we have caught scum here.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, comparing my pm I do have a very brief "history" line, but what Reckoner is claiming seems a bit too specific and most of my PM is more season 5 related...ugh, I hate PM analysis.

Of course, even if Reckoner is telling the truth, he is going to be dead tonight (though our lynch would still be better spent elsewhere if that is the case).

I want to hear the thoughts of the people who have not been vocal on this claiming business yet.

CDB, why did you back off so easily when his claim was so empty to begin with?

[VP Baltar]

@Emp-I don't understand whatever you're getting at. I actually think your "the" vs. "a" argument is much more senseless. Please explain what is so odd about the questions that Juls or I asked.

re:Reckoner--I thought about it quite a bit this morning, and the best course of action might just be to let him live. If he really is who he says he is, then the scum are going to go after him tonight anyhow because they can't risk a guilty result. We are probably better served to use our lynch on Jason, whose reasoning for backing off the cop is basically verbatim of scum motivation. Jason is a big distraction anyhow and shouldn't make it to endgame.

[VP Baltar]

Outguess the mod isn't all that useful of a game to play.


Reckoner, any comment on the episode text revealed above? Was it what you were expecting, not what you were expecting or do you consider it irrelevant to the question you were asked?

[VP Baltar]

Your second choice for lynch is someone who you’ve been reading all day as innocent?

This is somewhat of a misrep on my position. While I said I have read him as slightly more town than scum, I have pointed out several scummy actions from him and noted during the day that he is still a lynch option. I said I would have

preferred

other people, but don't mistake that for me saying jason should absolutely not be lynched today. He is most certainly not playing a pro-town enough game for me to take that stance.

He hasn't exactly been helpful and I would see it as a policy lynch in some ways to end his distracting scumminess. While I'm inclined to believe that he is more likely to flip town, there is still a considerable enough chance that he is bungling scum for me to be comfortable with the lynch.

You seemed immediately sure about what information would and wouldn’t be included in a role, enough to conclude that Reckoner was lying. (The worst being “In other news, can someone who watched season 5 more recently inform me if the marshall who arrested Kate even makes an appearance in that season. If not, we have caught scum here.”) Not only do I not see any basis for that certainty, but my role at least doesn’t bear out the assumptions your making about flavor-matching, making me personally skeptical.

I don't speak in wishy-washy terms and fail to take stances unlike other players in this game. The flavor that Reckoner gave does not necessarily seem consistent with what is in mine. I find it quite healthy to question claims on D1, particularly something convenient for scum, like cops.

BTW, you any closer to actually coming to any sort of conclusions instead of sniping from the sidelines and committing to nothing?

[VP Baltar]

if we do indeed have a cop...who (character) would it be? Also this is getting into a flavour/mod outguess debate.

There have been some suggestions brought up already that would make a more logical fit. Sawyer definitely would be a good choice. However, like you said, it's outguess the mod, which is very dangerous territory.

Do you think questioning the cop claim is scummy?

Who do you think today's lynch should be?

I still don't quite get the question thrown at me, then.

Are you talking about the question from the mod in relation to the episode flavor?

[VP Baltar]

No, I don’t find it healthy to first state that a certain detail cannot possibly be in the role PM, then when that doesn’t gain traction reverse to oh-wait-I-actually-do-have-something-like-it-in-my-PM, then try to sweep the matter away by deciding outguessing-the-mod-is-a-bad-idea. Which you have done.

Except you intentionally ignore where I explained why I don't think that detail fits given my PM, and instead try to charactarize it as "oh-wait-I-actually-do-have-something-like-it-in-my-PM". Your 'not gaining traction' theory is complete bullshit because the time between me saying the first and second thing was LESS THAN AN HOUR. If I was really trying to push that angle, don't you think I would have waited at least long enough for someone to log on and actually read what I wrote?

Also, I like how you are now stating that I'm covering something up, when I have done no such thing. Questioning the format of a role PM and outguessing the mod about what character would be which role are two very different things. If Jason flips scum, you are almost certainly his buddy.

If you’re trying to slander me specifically, I challenge you to say what’s been wishy-washy, because I have been quite precise in pointing out exactly what I feel.

Really? Wow, because I don't have much of a clue who you think is scum and who is not. This is your progression in this game simplified: you random vote, unvote, you pop in and ask some questions that never seem to come to a conclusioin, and now you want to pursue a lurker wagon. That's some pretty aggressive scumhunting you have going on there.

[VP Baltar]

You 180 from being certain that something can’t be in a PM, to outguessing the mod is bad, and I’m not seeing any justification for this sudden reversal.

Surprisingly, I'm a sentient being and not every one of my thoughts is documented in this thread. The basic of it is that I posted the first line because his "history" line seemed to be quite disparate with my own. After some reconsideration, I decided I may have been jumping the gun there.

You have reasoning to go with this non sequitor? Or did I just do that good a job of convincing you that discussing pairings before reveals can be helpful?

I don't see what is non-sequitar about it at all. Nor is it the same as what I was saying was wrong with people calling buddies earlier. Mine is conditional on jason flipping scum. Earlier people were making the argument that 'player X is bussing player Y', without seeing an alignment at all. Do you think these are really similar statements?

I’ve stated who I think is suspicious, either by pointing out what they’re doing that’s suspicious, or by explicitly saying so. (Such as in [285] in response to your asking me, remember?)

The problem is that this far along in the day you should not have to be prompted to state your suspicions. This is exactly what I think is scummy about your play, and you can't really deny that it is taking place when before I asked you directly who you thought was suspicious, no one could have definitively stated any conclusions you had come to in the game.

Is that different from what you’re now attacking me for? Did I miss where that reached a conclusion, or did you just have no good reason for asking it in the first place?

Yes, it very much is different and I don't understand what anything I said about Jebus has to do with you not following up on your suspicions, other than this looks like a fairly poor strawman attempt. That line of questioning didn't seem to be leading anywhere, and I think it was obvious to anybody that I was more interested in Reckoner as the game progressed. You really think I haven't made my suspicions known this game?

Now, you are saying that after all of these questions you've asked throughout the day, you've reached a good conclusion with Jebus. Well, as I said before, I call shenannigans. You implied that your reasons for voting him are clear enough and are not just related to him lurking. Well, let us take a close analysis of those reasons.

Reason #1:
You question his post 143 as being hypocritical-

So, Jason is suspicious to you because he simply restated and paraphrased others’ reasons without adding anything.

…yet you express your suspicion of Jason by repeating and paraphrasing others’ reasons without adding anything?

Jebus eventually responds-

Second, in response to Emp from way back, that was laziness at 1:00 am, I really don't know what I was thinking then >.<

and you say you are "not satisfied" with his response.

Reason #2:
He has lurked and hasn't caught up with the game.

Well, gee-whiz, after 15 pages and a million questions, that is certainly a great case you have there. I don't care what kind of weirdness you are professing as a hinderance to you playing the game, you are clearly fake scumhunting.

Unvote, Vote: Emptyger

And just so you don't (falsely) accuse me of being hypocritical again if I don't state my reasons clearly, I shall put them in a convenient to remember format:

• You are fake scumhunting
  
• You only put up a case when prompted, and it is majorly weaksauce
  
• You try to excuse your lack of scumhunting because of "weirdnes", when many other players don't seem to have a problem.
  
• You have made several attempts to call my points hypocritical, when that clearly is not the case
  
• You are expressing a strong obsession with semantics, a common scum tactic

I also plan to hopefully do some meta of you here pretty soon. We'll see if you play this game is similar to your other town games.

I’m curious: whose level of contribution (besides your own, I’m sure) fits your criteria?

I am extremely disappointed with the level of participation right now, but there are several players (CDB, Juls, Zoneace) who seem like they are genuinely scumhunting when they are here.

mod, this game needs some major prodding. I know you said you would do it tomorrow, but I would prefer today if possible. Thanks

[VP Baltar]

Please Prod list

canadianbovine
Santos
Jebus

Thank you.

[VP Baltar]

Replying to Emptyger:

1) The point is that your scumhunting seems to have no real direction. That is why I feel it is fake. I don't care how effective you think your questions are, they aren't reading that way to me.

2a) Yes you did only finally vote someone after prompted (twice) by me. I will quote it for your convenience:

<snip>
BTW, you any closer to actually coming to any sort of conclusions instead of sniping from the sidelines and committing to nothing?

I’m reaching the conclusion that after 4 days absence, 6 days of I’ll-post-soons, and then finally a disavowal of what he was saying 10 days prior, it’s time for that pressure

vote: Jebus.

2b) Again you are deflecting to a lesser point. I'm saying that if after 15 pages of a game the best case you can come up with is a mostly lurker vote on Jebus you are clearly not trying. You have considerable experience on the site, and I expect you are more than capable of effectively scumhunting. This fits nowhere near those expectations. Are you really willing to lynch Jebus over one single statement?

As far as if he has done something pro-town, no not much, but he hasn't really done anything scummy either because he hasn't hardly said anything this game. I don't see how anyone could have anything better than a null read on him.

3)

Unless, by “many other players don’t seem to have a problem”, you just mean that since they haven’t said anything opposing it, that means that they’ve completely analyzed it and don’t see any problem with it. In which case, well, many other players don’t seem to have a problem with “attempts to call your points hypocritical. I guess that means that many players think that you’re hypocritical.

I fail to see how this addresses what I said about you excusing your lack of scumhunting. By "other players don't have a problem", I mean that no one else but you seems to be having so much trouble at least voting and saying who they would like to see lynched. Even though some of them have bad reasons for their wagons, they at least seem to be taking

some

kind of discernable stance.

4) And you failed to explain how my refutations to these in examples

within actual context

is wrong. Instead, you prefer to continue comparing apples to oranges, which is why I say your arguments are not the actual case.

5) No, you're arguing semantics and it's scummy. Reckoner's "a" vs. "the" thing is the most obvious example.

re: non-sequitor- Fine, I should have pushed the return key there so it wasn't so confusing for you. The point still stands.

The point is that both you and Jason were making statements that 2 players were mafia together without any actual reasons connecting the 2. Just like Jason. And regarding Jason’s action, you had this to say: “Discussing something that has no logical reason to be believed either way is a major waste of time on D1.”

Again, mine was conditional and Jason's was not. IF he flipped scum, you could be a likely partner certainly does have a logical flow to it. Talking about bussing taking place with no insight does not.

If Jebus’s behavior wasn’t suspicious, then why did you ask essentially the same question?
If Jebus’s behavior was suspicious, then what in Jebus’s behavior since indicates that he’s innocent to invalidate the suspicion?

I find these questions rather irrelevant. Please explain how they are necessary.

No, you made an assumption that there’s no other cop in the game. That assumption didn’t come from your PM. I’m trying to figure out where it did come from. That’s hardly “useless”.

Hint: This is a mini-game. There is no way in hell there is multiple cops unless the mod is horribly stupid. That is most certainly not the case. Ergo: there aren't multiple cops and this is you pushing semantics.

[VP Baltar]

your prompting was not what prompted my vote of Jebus. His actions did.

Glad you are sticking by this even though you quoted me prompting you just before you voted. I'm not buying your explanation at all here.

you seem to be implying that there’s no possible situation that any serious D1 vote on Jebus could be valid.

How does me saying that there is no way you could have a read on Jebus at this time given his contribution thus far to the game translate into "there's no possible situation that any serious D1 vote on Jebus could be valid"? Blatant exaggeration.

Well, after 14 pages the best you had was a bandwagon hop onto someone you had been defending until then.

Really? How would you assess my involvement in the Reckoner wagon? Do I seem to be genuinely pursuing my case against you?

Didn’t you just say that according to you, only 3 other players “seem like they are genuinely scumhunting”? Which is the “weirdness” I mentioned, in which far too many players are

This is some really BS selective quoting you have going on here. You asked for persons who met my expectations for contributions. I gave you three names. That doesn't mean I think there are only three players who are contributing. I have an admittedly high standard. Jason, CKD, LL, and Reckoner have all been regularly contributing, but it doesn't necessarily meet what I consider good contribution.

The difference with your play and their play is that your attempts to scumhunt seem especially disingenious, which is why I think you are likely scum.

Or, am I supposed to say “Player X just did 1 or 2 or 3 contradictory things. I’ll ignore them because I’m sure X has a perfectly good contextual explanation for all that.”?

What I'm saying is that when you brought up every single one of those "contradictions" originally, I explained why, based on the context of my words, your accusations were incorrect. You then simply restated the "contradictions" again out of context, as if I had never addressed them in the first place.

Let’s hear the antitown motivation for the following context:
Reckoner claims cop/Kate.
VP and Juls try to get Reckoner lynched because Kate doesn’t match cop and because marshall was mentioned.
EmpTyger makes up an attack on Reckoner while simultaneously rebutting the attacks that 2 others have against Reckoner.

How does that make any sense? Unlike, say, that I’m genuinely reacting to questionable statements made by each of VP, Juls, and Reckoner?

The anti-town motivation is that you are casting suspicion on both sides of an argument so you are guaranteed to come out on the "right" side of it later. Also, please quote for me where you "rebutted" anything Juls or I said about Reckoner's claim. All you did was say that me backing off my line of questioning was hypocritical.

Why am I guilty if Jason is guilty?

If jason flipped scum, I would suspect your "attack" on me as being a chainsaw defense.

Speaking of which, what is your opinion on jason anyhow? I don't remember hearing you clearly state which side of that argument you're leaning.

You’re saying that my attack on Jebus is invalid because you “don't see how anyone could have anything better than a null read on him.” I’m pointing out that based on *your* actions, either:
You think he’s behaved suspiciously, or
You were doing the same thing you’re accusing me of doing.

So, because I questioned one thing he said you think I have a scummy read on him? If that were the only criteria for me to consider someone scum, then pretty much everyone in the game would be a suspect of mine.

So, that's answered, and your questions are still irrelevant to my original point that you haven't followed up on any of your suspicions in this game without provocation.

Do I think that that is definitely what happened? No. But I don’t see why a potential slip shouldn’t be dismissed just because it’s “semantics”. Do mafia never misspeak when they make up a claim?

What do you place the odds at that this game has multiple cops in it?

No, but I’m willing to lynch Jebus over his behavior this entire day. (and more on this below)

I didn't see this anywhere in your post. Please quote me any single reason that you already brought up in the thread beyond his one line and lurking that you want to lynch him over.
------------------------

This back and forth, while revealing, is getting a bit old. A wider variety of voices is definitely necessary. I think some more prods may be in need of going out and soon.

[VP Baltar]

@emp-if it is alright with you, I am going to wait on responding to your points until we hear from some other players. If there is something specifically you feel absolutely needs to be responded to, I will, but I think this impasse isn't really making progress for the town at this point.

@Reckoner-why the switch back to wanting jason lynched?

mod, please prod Zoneace and curiouskarmadog

[VP Baltar]

Doesn't this quote contradict that, considering that that's kind of what I was doing earlier?

I rebuked everyone who did this at that time, and iirc I said I was only using jason as an example.

[VP Baltar]

I never stopped wanting Jason lynched, I just wanted EmpTyger lynched more. I said I'm still partial to a Jason lynch, meaning I'd happily lynch either of them.

Who do you think is more scummy and why?


Thank you for sticking with us canadianbovine.

What do you think of Emptyger? Do you think he would make a good lynch today? If not, who would you like to see lynched today and why?

I want to apologize for not being about as much lately, I started rehab in hospital recently and am doped up on what is effectively morphine!

No problem...though you lose points for not sharing.

What do you think of Emptyger? Do you think he would make a good lynch today? If not, who would you like to see lynched today and why?

[VP Baltar]

Most of what I posted is a defensive response to your attacks, so if you don’t have response to it, then I’m done too.

I mean, I could respond to it because there are still points there that I disagree with you on, but I think it might be best if we leave that for now before it just becomes a huge distraction for the town. I think we've both made our points clear enough.

I’d like you to explain how what you’ve done with Jebus isn’t the exact same thing you’ve said is a suspicious thing I’ve done to Jason.

You're welcome to call it that if you'd like. It doesn't nullify that is what you were doing. What is strange to me about you and jason, however, is that you seemed to be suspicious of jason, so I don't know why you would try and detract from attacks on him. With Jebus, I don't have much of an opinion either way yet, nor do I think attacking someone who clearly needs to be replaced is helpful to the town's end.

Also, what do you think about this?

I'm curious as to why Juls would help research a point that she claims to have disagreed with. Seems very strange to support a line of quetioning and then in hindsight call it bad.

Dear Everyone,

Stop talking about breadcrumbing.

Thanks,

The Management

[VP Baltar]

I just realized that we have three days to deadline. We should probably start getting whoever we are going to lynch lined up so he/she would have time to claim and that claim be assessed properly.

Right now, I would prefer an Emptyger lynch for stated reasons; however, I would back a jason lynch for compromise purposes.

Reckoner can wait a night.

What say you?

[VP Baltar]

prod received. i don't have time to catch up at the moment; I will read the last few pages later.

It's later. Post or be replaced.

[VP Baltar]

When do you plan on catching up? How far along are you in your read? Do you have any opinions at all so far?

We are three days to deadline. I would prefer if you weren't replaced, but you have to at least participate somewhat and not just lurk until the night comes.

[VP Baltar]

The silence in this game disturbs me. It seems you're Mr. Popular, Jason. I suggest claiming asap.

[VP Baltar]

Jason, please claim now. It is not helping the town by trying to resist. Lynching you without a claim would happen and could severely hurt the town.

@zone-what are your feelings on the dust up I had with emptyger?

[VP Baltar]

Zone, answer my question above please.

Jason, if you aren't going to full claim, you at least need to partial claim so there is something to assess. If reckoner is telling the truth about who he is, even if you are a PR it is unlikely you will be killed tonight. Scum cannot afford to have a cop around outting them or confirming town. Furthermore, zone is correct above. Without a claim you are most definitely going to get lynched, and if you have information we need to know before you die, it is going to hurt the town far more than it will help the scum.

I agree with emptyger above (imagine that!). Jebus and Santos need to post immediately. This lurk your ass off BS is getting old. Play the game if you want to play, or asked to be replaced. You're making it unfun for the rest of us. Regardless of what your alignment is, lurking is quite irritating.

[VP Baltar]

I have read up to the end of Emp's 379, but I have to stop now - I'll read and comment on the subsequent posts later.

Waiting. Unlike some others in this game*, I know I have seen you posting elsewhere. I doubt you're intentionally lurking, but we could use your input as soon as possible.


*stupid disabled search function

[VP Baltar]

Well, everyone pretty much knew you were Richard Alpert. It's not like your breadcrumbs had any subtlty to them.

Does your PM say anything about you not being able to protect the cop?

[VP Baltar]

It is important information for the town to know when considering Reckoner's claim against yours. I highly suspect one of you is lying. Answer the question and please stop fighting this tooth and nail the whole time.

Also, has anyone in this game played in a game that Porochaz modded before?

[VP Baltar]

If you don't want to answer that question specifically, let me rephrase so you can actually be useful here, does your PM mention cop protection (it doesn't matter for or against)?

[VP Baltar]

If I say yes... it could give a hint to if I can or can not protect him.

How does you answer that question give them a hint either way? It's the same WIFOM as if you didn't answer it.

quite frankly im wondering why you are pushing something that will give them such an advantage in the night by knowing what I hypo can or cant do with my role

Perhaps you don't understand the bigger picture very well. And again, it is no advantage to the scum.

[VP Baltar]

You didn't answer my question by restating that bit.

I asked you HOW answering if your PM mentions a cop would give any indication to the scum as to whether or not it is possible?

All I want you to say is yes or no if your PM mentions a cop.

[VP Baltar]

I'll try to up my participation, and if there's any particular part of that debate you'd like my thoughts on, I'll suck it up and wade into it again.

That's fine, we clearly have more pressing matters that need attention. I also want you to jump in here because I'm trying to not make this game just about me accusing people and that is the only way to get them to make an appearance. With 3 days away, I think we need to step up the level of discussion that is happening.

I am willing to give more insight into my thought process about Jason and Reckoner's claims if Jason would just answer my damn question. One of them could likely be lying depending on that answer.

Mod, since the search function is disabled, would you be willing to provide us with links to the games you have modded in the past?

[VP Baltar]

Reckoner, you really seem to be reaching to put doubt on his claim. Seems artificial to me.

[VP Baltar]

Jason, would you give me a yes or no answer to my question, please.

[VP Baltar]

Jason, would you give me a yes or no answer to my question, please.

[VP Baltar]

Ugh, alright I will tip my hand a bit, but only because I think you are too scummy to be scum (yeah yeah, fallacy I know).

Given current site meta, I think it would be very highly unlikely that a mod would create a game with a cop and a doc where the doc can protect the cop. It is a very big no-no in a mini because the cop would only have to claim and could be protected throughout the game by the hidden doc. It basically makes it impossible for the scum to win because by the time they find and kill the doc, the cop would have likely either found them or cleared enough innocents that it would be very difficult for the scum to hide.

Unless your PM says something specific about not being able to protect cops or not being able to protect the same person on consecutive nights, I think it is highly likely that Reckoner is lying and I would like to lynch him today. Obviously I didn't want to divulge my thoughts immediately because, if you are scum, it gives you an easy opportunity to alter your response to my question accordingly.

And again, scum receive no real benefit from it unless you are absolutely certain you are both telling the truth.

[VP Baltar]

I understand your thought process perfectly fine. I'm telling you, however, that the information is crucial in assessing both of your claims and you hiding it is hurting the town more than it is benefiting.

[VP Baltar]

I asked you to explain how it benefits the town once before ... I am asking you once again to explain as all you have said it is crucial in accessing our claims.

Given current site meta, I think it would be very highly unlikely that a mod would create a game with a cop and a doc where the doc can protect the cop. It is a very big no-no in a mini because the cop would only have to claim and could be protected throughout the game by the hidden doc. It basically makes it impossible for the scum to win because by the time they find and kill the doc, the cop would have likely either found them or cleared enough innocents that it would be very difficult for the scum to hide.

Unless your PM says something specific about not being able to protect cops or not being able to protect the same person on consecutive nights, I think it is highly likely that Reckoner is lying and I would like to lynch him today. Obviously I didn't want to divulge my thoughts immediately because, if you are scum, it gives you an easy opportunity to alter your response to my question accordingly.

[VP Baltar]

I'm flabergasted that anyone could be that incapable of understanding simple logic. Congrats, you win the award for MS biggest VI.


To everyone else, do you think one of reckoner and jason is lying given their claims? I personally think jason is utterly dense and reckoner is lying through his teeth.

[VP Baltar]

OK, I looked over the mod's Batman and Doors games, as those would be the most applicable to our situation.

Batman had a Doc and no cop in it, while also including roles that are dependant upon good choices as town to be successful (busdriver).

Doors did have a cop and a doc, but the odds of the town getting both at the same time were slim from what I saw while I was skimming.

From this, I'm pretty well inclined to believe that Porochaz is more than competant enough to know that a doc + cop combination is seriously broken.

[VP Baltar]

Before I go... Lynching Reckoner (claimed and uncountered cop) who hypo flips cop leaves it open for scum to NK me (claimed and uncountered doc) and town loses both Cop and Doc before day 2.

wowie, this is an amazing deduction!

VP: so you're leaning towards the Reckoner lynch? Without Jason confirming or denying the particulars of his role, is a lynch based on the cop-doc argument really a good idea?

It's risky, but I'm not uncomfortable with it. The odds are quite high that one of them is lying, plus Reckoner's play reeks of scum. Apart from all my points before, he was wanted to be on pretty much any wagon that looks like it has a chance and was very quick to build a contrived bunch of reasons why he didn't believe jason could be telling the truth.

While jason is no doubt being majorly anti-town, there is an earnest noobishness about him, which I definitely do not get from Reckoner.

If the town really has no guts to follow through on a reckoner lynch, I'll still go with an emptyger lynch, but that didn't seem to get much support when I proposed it.

[VP Baltar]

Unvote, Vote Reckoner

I think I would rather look elsewhere altogether, but I don't know where to start. I'll take a gander at other options ASAP.

I'm interested to hear what you find.

[VP Baltar]

If reckoner flips scum will you make me blueberry pancakes?

[VP Baltar]

So on what grounds would you ever lynch somebody day 1? Any scum with half a brain is going to claim some sort of PR. So, do you think we should just go around outting everyone's role before the end of day 1 until we find an actual vanilla and then lynch that person "just in case"?

Even if there is a roleblocker, I don't know if I would consider that balanced (though it would be moreso). Have you looked at the types of roles in the mods other games? From looking at those, does he seem like the type of mod who would put a doc +cop combo in a closed mini?

Also, who would you prefer to lynch today then?

[VP Baltar]

Isn't it closer to 48 hours to deadline?

[VP Baltar]

It is highly likely that you would be a liar in that situation, yes. Glad you see how annoying it is when people don't answer your questions though.

[VP Baltar]

God you really are feeding the scum aint you?

If he flips cop.. it is highly likely I am lying, scum then keeps me alive and I am lynched tomorrow as you feel I am lying because Reckoner telling truth

God could you please stop handing scum this game! unless of course this is what you want

^That is exactly why I didn't respond to the question. I knew you were going to go, "OMG HE WANTS TO LYNCH ALL POWER ROLES!!!!"

So on what grounds would you ever lynch somebody day 1? Any scum with half a brain is going to claim some sort of PR. So, do you think we should just go around outting everyone's role before the end of day 1 until we find an actual vanilla and then lynch that person "just in case"?

Even if there is a roleblocker, I don't know if I would consider that balanced (though it would be moreso). Have you looked at the types of roles in the mods other games? From looking at those, does he seem like the type of mod who would put a doc +cop combo in a closed mini?

I would actually like answers to these.

[VP Baltar]

If I had claimed vanilla (which I was considering BTW) would I have been lynched?

Depends on if it would have seemed believable, but probably because it wouldn't be the current cop/doc thing and I would be more inclined to believe reckoner then.

re: outguessing the mod--there are not generally "facts" in mafia games to go on and most of what you lynch people over ends up being speculation and what you feel the optimal play is. I'm saying the mod has a history of making setups that are reasonably balanced. There is little reason to believe that this game would be any different.

[VP Baltar]

Jason, what do you think of Reckoner's push for a lynch on you after you claimed?

[VP Baltar]

Zone, who do you want to lynch and why?

[VP Baltar]

But with 48 hrs from lynch, that isn't really telling us who you want lynched more and why you would prefer that person. Which of them do you think is a better choice.

[VP Baltar]

Emp, you really think the mod would just copy the F11 setup for his themed game? When was the last time you saw a small theme with a doc and a cop in it?

Say lurker Jebus isn't the lynch today, who would you like to see strung up?

[VP Baltar]

Also,

A) whose fault is it that detail wasn't revealed? I asked repeatedly. I even said please.
B) I actually mentioned a roleblocker earlier, but convenient of you to ignore that. Still doesn't mean cop/doc combination isn't fucking stupid and unlikely.

re: the quotes you cite--yep, more out of context BS considering what was being talked about in those "outguess the mod" subjects was entirely different (one about role pms and one about setups given the mod's meta, iirc)...but that is no doubt irrelevant for your hunt of all things

scummy

hypocritical!

[VP Baltar]

IMO, if Jason lives tonight, then it only casts more suspicion on himself.

So what happens when the scum purposely don't kill him tonight? You waste a lynch tomorrow because you have no balls to lynch obv. scum reckoner?

Speaking of which:

Unvote, Vote: Jebus

Re-read. On my way to Inglorious Basterds. On phones browswer. Will post full case when i return

I thought you were convinced jason was scum? Good thing your opinion changed along with the likelihood that he would actually be lynched!

[off-topic]How was the movie? Worth seeing?[/off-topic]

I think now I could lynch Reckoner. When I know how the votes look, I'll put my own down, unless Jebus now has a bigger wagon (don't think so), in which case I'll vote for him. Not wild about a Jebus lynch but not as frustratingly torn as I am on Reckoner and Jason.

Yeah, I don't see how anyone could not see that post as last ditch effort scummy.

Town, mark my words if I die tonight, the scum team is Reckoner, canadianbovine, and Emptyger.

[VP Baltar]

Zone, we could use your vote on the Reckoner wagon please.

[VP Baltar]

Also, ckd's presence in other games while being absent here should be noted.

[VP Baltar]

Let's hear that result Reckoner. Also, I still want you to post this case on Jebus even though he's dead.

[VP Baltar]

who did you investigate...seems like a crucial piece of information.

[VP Baltar]

Locke was actually Locke... funny.

That's all you have to say after lurking most of D1...what's your opinion of Reckoner?

[VP Baltar]

@Santos-you are so wrong on this it's not funny. Character names have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with alignment. If they did, most theme games could be broken on page one by mass claim. Scum could have also received fake claims. Stop arguing that as a defence for reckoner because it makes no sense.

@Canadianbovine-even when you are present in this game, you don't seem to be doing too much scumhunting.

@reckoner-explain to me why you would investigate me over your alleged number two suspect, Emptyger.

[VP Baltar]

I know we're all frothing at the mouth to prove VP right, but let's relax on the lynching for a minute. I'm all for reckoner dying, but we do have a whole day to gather information. I also have a feeling that I'm going to be dead tonight, so I think you can at least give me a bit to pursue some other avenues before I head to the great gig in the sky.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: I'd appreciate an unvote for now to prevent a self-hammer.

[VP Baltar]

My #1 suspect was Jason, but I figured with the Doc claim, either I'd be dead or he would on D2. If he was still alive I planned on coming at him full-force on D2.

So you figured it was you or him, but if he survived you'd come at him "full-force" the next day?

hint: YOU'D BE DEAD GIVEN YOUR ASSUMPTION.

VP's alignment would be more helpful to town.

How so?

@Emp, who do you suspect are reckoner's scum buddies?

[VP Baltar]

Wouldn't the vibes be more odd from Emptyger since he was your second suspect?

Also, address my point about your plan with jason had he lived.

[VP Baltar]

I don't believe that there is a role thief in the game. Roleblocker is a better possibility, but slightly unlikely...but that is nothing more than me speculating.

Let me ask you this Reckoner (and please no one jump in here until he answers), did your PM indicated anything about your role possibly changing over the course of the game or is this an unforseen happening and that is why you think it is a scum role working their magic?

[VP Baltar]

^ What he said.

[VP Baltar]

Why do you believe this?

When I play aggressively, I tend to die very early. Apparently scum don't like that. I'm guessing they might have come after me last night, but the claimed doc was too juicy. You can check my wiki, VP Baltar, for corraboration. (yay, WIFOM)

[VP Baltar]

Definitely would like to hear from CKD and Juls (I know you're busy with school), as soon as possible.

[VP Baltar]

do you have a question or are you just wonder general thoughts?

I'll take all the support I can get from town members. I appreciate your last post and would like to hear more if you have other thoughts.

What do you think of zoneace?

[VP Baltar]

ugh. Reckoner is not helping me here. He either has a fake claim or he's telling the truth. I need to think on this a bit. Plus not lynching him is a good thing as we wait for questions.

@Santos-I have not received any information to say that I am on the island, and if the game was going strictly by the show I would have expected to be. You need to get out of your obsession with the flavor and start actually looking for scummy behavior.

Btw, who do you think has acted scummy?

[VP Baltar]

If VP is the only one here besides me who began off-island and still is off-island, we can confirm each other as innocent.

I'm not certain how that confirms either of us as innocent.

I know there’s a good chance you don’t see how what I’m talking about above is possible. If I’m right in my guess, don’t panic. Because if Reckoner is telling the truth, we probably shouldn’t.

You've been speaking cryptically for quiet some time now and I've kept my mouth shut like a good little boy giving you the benefit of the doubt, but at some point you are going to have clue the rest of us in if you can actually be of help. This kind of thing isn't doing much in town's favor.

is anyone else confused with what he is saying?

He doesn't KNOW anything about reckoner. He's apparently hell bent on arguing a very bad point on some information he has that he believes reckoner does as well, it seems. Whether that is coming from town failing at being helpful, or scum trying to save their buddy, I don't know.

mod closes the game what to me is a day early?

See, this is a very important point that has been bothering me since yesterday. I can't quite figure out what happened there, but I think we need to know. Does anyone have any idea or information that we need to know?

[VP Baltar]

Vote canadianbovine

an iso read has confirmed my suspicion that he and Reckoner are scum buddies. Look back at how stealthily avoids taking any solid position on the reckoner situation until today when the wagon is steadily chugging along. Now he is finally coming around to the idea. (<--none of this is really confirmable until an alignment flip)


Furthermore, what few solid stances he has taken in this game have all been against confirmed town members and his push for the jason lynch yesterday doesn't feel right.

-----------

CDB, your lurking is officially scummy now. Congrats.

Juls, comment on something! I have no idea what your alignment is in this game and I don't like that.

[VP Baltar]

If you had said VP is scum in like 80% of games that he plays I could buy this (because it is pretty much true btw) but Odd Vibes < Scum Vibes. Seriously.

lulz. Only games you are in.

I kinda indicated I would post Thursday. Today is Thursday. Sorry if I wasn't clear.

It's really my fault for being impatient. I know you're a good scumhunter, so I want you to be here when you can to help me sort out this mess (assuming you are town).

Huh? Why would you vote cb until you find out Reck's alignment?

He has been reasonably scummy for the other reasons I stated. Plus, I'd like a little bit more time for discussion before the Reckoner lynch goes through. I don't feel my vote is hurting anything there right now.

Awesome. However, I don't think you're taking into account a) the pace of the game, which is accruing at least a page per day at current rate, and b) my level of activity generally. If you compare my posting rates in Slicey's Pokemon Mafia and /in-vitational 3 (the other two games I am currently alive in), you'll see they're roughly the same.

Alright, I'll look at those games. I probably would have before I said anything in the first place if search was working.

I'm wary that canadiantown was lynched as town recently for not being the sharpest tool in the box, though, as Reckoner should be, seeing as he was in that game as well.

link?

[VP Baltar]

vp's right, while reck is CLEARLY the lynch today, we have time to gather more info.

is he dead yet?


if not, VP get off the cow and lets kill us a lying scum.

Not liking this change in stance at all. What happened to gathering more info?

[VP Baltar]

what more do you think we can glean from today VP?

Plenty. Don't forget that we have questions that seem to affect the game in some way. This is actually one thing that bothers me about the reckoner lynch. I could possibly see a mod putting a doc and a cop in a game together if their roles were going to change somehow later down the line due to these questions.

Emp also is acting very strange and I would like to hear his answers to my previous questions. If he has info we should know (and can without compromising anything), I'd like to hear it.

Third, there are still some players in the background who will likely need more time to get involved and take more stances.

i never took a position on reckoner. i still do nto believe in lynching an un cc cop. If anything i'd like to lynch tyger. or hell, probably you, because you have attempted to push the lynch of a cop for 2 days now, and are trying to place it

He's allegedly not a cop anymore. Add scummily not paying attention to the reasons you should be dead.

In my offense, YOU have been on reckoner since acting scummy and still support his lynch after his claim.

See above. Furthermore, I'd like you to point out what is pro-town about his play or anything he has done that would make you believe his claim.

are you sure you read up on that game after you were NK'd? i was NK'd night 3 being the doctor, i was almost lynched twice in that game, the second wagon being very scum driven.

in closing.

vote: vp baltar

So...you are voting me because in a different game a wagon on you was scum driven?

[VP Baltar]

I say 4 because i think we've assumed that there is a serial killer, unless this game has weird post day 1 flavor kills? didnt think so.

It could very well be a vig. LL wasn't exactly beyond suspicion yesterday.

I'm not ready to take that risk by voting for the one person who is currently cop.

HE'S NOT A GOD DAMNED COP. [/zoneace impersonation]

[VP Baltar]

So no matter how scummy a player is, all they have to do is claim cop and you give them a free pass forever? Noted if I'm ever scum against you.

[VP Baltar]

Well, that was a pretty useless page. Still waiting for Emptyger to reply to me.

[VP Baltar]

I know I have a bias here, but for what it’s worth, I don’t have any problem with a cop choosing to have investigated VP in this situation.

Well, I have not problem with any cop investigating me, that's not the issue. The question is if Reckoner really would have investigated me after stating no suspicion of me whatsoever yesterday while simultaneously claiming that Jason and yourself were his top suspects. Does that make sense to you?

I don’t believe that you disagreed with VP’s argument.
Because- as I’ve already said- a player who disagrees with “If A then B” does not spend as much effort as you did to prove A, while not saying a word about the “but that doesn’t imply B” part, as you didn’t.

I tend to agree with you here. This is one of the few things Juls has said this game that stands out as scummy to me.

(Sorry, which previous questions are you waiting for me to answer?)

Eh, looking back I guess they weren't questions so much as comments, which I believe you went on to address.

I don’t think there’s anything I can say to make you trust me. Maybe with a massclaim

Ok, that's what I'm getting at. You're really hinting at some things here, but it's impossible to tell at what. If you are certain you can confirm yourself and others as town, then I'm inclined to think that you should do it. It will narrow down the pool of suspects and make us much more likely to hit scum today and in the subsequent days. So, without revealing anything, yes or no do you think you can confirm people today with any knowledge you may or may not have?

[VP Baltar]

One thing I think is rather odd is that Reckoner has been at L-1 for some time now and has not self-hammered. Pure WIFOM and we haven't had a vote count in awhile now, but still odd.

[VP Baltar]

Any intelligent scum would hammer themselves so discussion would end and their scum buddies would have less of a chance of being discovered.

[VP Baltar]

I would like to hear from the people currently voting reckoner if they are more inclined to believe him now that Santos has allegedly vouched for him.

[VP Baltar]

Not really, but I can pretty much guess that zone is going to say he doesn't care.

[VP Baltar]

My point exactly. Still, I'd like to hear from others.

[VP Baltar]

I don't think you have any place to call the town idiotic there, Reckoner. Your play has been utterly atrocious this game if you are indeed town.

[VP Baltar]

Emp, can you confirm anyone as town or have a strong inclination about someone being scum. I'm particularly concerned about CKD, CDB, canadianbovine and zone.

[VP Baltar]

can you tell us if you were roleblocked too?

What is the point of this question? If you don't have one other than you think it helps reckoner, then it seems like rolefishing to me.

[VP Baltar]

Well, I think that if reckoner is telling the truth (with Santos as corraboration), moving to the island may be related to his losing the ability. I'm not saying I straight up believe him, but it's enough to make me second guess the overwhelming push to get him lynched quickly at the start of the day.

I guess you're right. I was trying to determine if mafia has a roleblocker or was it a result of "coming to the island".

That's what bugs me though. I think you have very sharp instincts Juls, and I would think that it would be obvious to you that asking if Santos knows if he was roleblocked or not would make it easier for the scum to determine what kind of role he has/had.

I don't see a lot of town motivation in asking such a question.

The reason I ask is because I think that town would not have roleblocked Reckoner last night since he claimed cop. It would have to be scum.

You're speaking as though you're certain that the scum have a roleblocker. I thought you didn't think reckoner was scum, hence the unvote.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not saying I believe him outright, but why is it not worth considering as an option?

[VP Baltar]

That is what I am leaning toward. But I see your point about how Santos answer could reveal more to scum. I withdraw my question.

Alright.

In other news I'm sure that Juls can appreciate, I just became a miller due to the last round of questioning. I now believe there was/is a cop and that one of CDB,CDK, or canadianbovine is the correct lynch.

[VP Baltar]

no i will not. You became a miller....so you think there only was a cop? what if theres a new cop?

Well, let's see, the very quote you posted read as follows: "I now believe there

was/is

a cop ". Bold added for your ease of understanding. That being said, I don't think we need to role fish and find out if there still is.

I'm curious, why would you want to switch your vote back to me because I said I became a miller?

You got the result of your question/answer right away?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I was asked my question last night (real life last night, that is), replied and then got my answer plus role change shortly thereafter.

@ckd-what changed? I thought you didn't believe reckoner?

[VP Baltar]

no i will not. You became a miller....so you think there only was a cop? what if theres a new cop?

Well, let's see, the very quote you posted read as follows: "I now believe there

was/is

a cop ". Bold added for your ease of understanding. That being said, I don't think we need to role fish and find out if there still is.

I'm curious, why would you want to switch your vote back to me because I said I became a miller?

convenient excuse incase a cop investigates and comes up guilty, mais non?

That must be it. I thought I would just randomly say that I became a miller in the off chance a cop investigated me tonight.

[VP Baltar]

@VPB: Mind giving us a flavor claim with that miller claim? Also, were you vanilla before?

I'm ok with claiming if most people want me to, but I don't know if revealing what I was before is a good idea at this time. I'll leave it up to the rest of the town to decide by majority.

[VP Baltar]

^ I would like to hear the reply to both of these as well.

Emptyger, you done rereading yet?

[VP Baltar]

Reckoner can you please explain how your question and answer business went. I don't know if it was the same as mine or not. When were you asked a question and when did you recieve the answer?

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: Also, I wouldn't say that my role "changed" per se, just that I also became a miller on top of it.

[VP Baltar]

More votes on canadianbovine please.

[VP Baltar]

VP did your flavor of your question/result kinda make sense based on your choice?

Yes, actually, if I'm understanding you correctly. The question was directly what changed my status. I'm happy to give it, though I think I am going to have to claim if I do because the question is going to implicate who my character is.

It's up to you guys if you want that, but I'm comfortable with it. I'd like to hear people's thoughts in their next post: Do you want my question and result? If so, do you think I should claim or would you like me to try and phrase it in a way that doesn't directly indicate who I am (not sure if I can do this, but I could try)?

Also, did Santos receive a question? I don't remember him saying so, but I could be wrong.

Juls has pretty much the exact same reads that I do, so I'm definitely inclined to believe she is town. Santos is probably town too, but that's about as far as I'm willing to go at this point. I am sort of trusting Emptyger right now, but I'm also growing a bit impatient waiting for his thoughts.

[VP Baltar]

Ftr, I never said I had any powers to begin with. I just said that my role didn't change. I may or may not have had any powers to start. I was intentionally vague about that for now.

[VP Baltar]

this (lurking) appears to be across the board..

I'm pretty sure I have seen him posting in GD at least somewhat while not being present here. I would have to check to be sure.

VP, who would say did the pushing?

I think it came from several different sides. Zone was the most adamant about it, but it is hard to tell if this is honest or not, since he apparantly is forceful like that. What bothers me is how quickly he got to L-1 without anyone really trying to figure out anything. He acted scummy for sure, but to almost have a lynch that early worries me that it was scum driven.

were you asked a question?

Yes.

[VP Baltar]

Can you give us a paraphrase of your flavor bovine? Have you received any questions?

Also, everyone seems to have ignored my previous question: do people want me to paraphrase my question and answer?

[VP Baltar]

Juls, did the timeline for your question and response fit closer to mine or Reckoner's?

@Reckoner-did Santos say somewhere for sure that he received a question? I think I missed it if he did.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, well there you go. I had a seemingly negative result from my question, and Juls had a seemingly positive result, but we both received our answers in a timely manner.

Reckoner, did you receive a reply after you answered your question or just a PM that night saying you lost your ability and were going back to the island?

[VP Baltar]

I'm busy all day playing cricket in Gouda. I'll give my thoughts tomorrow.

It's tomorrow's tomorrow. Plus you have a nifty new avi and I'm a bitch about activity.

*sips Folgers International instant coffee*

Tell me what's on your mind.

[VP Baltar]

So Reckoner got a question, answered and never received a reply? Santos basically is saying that PM he received at night is unrelated to the questions at all. God, this game is frustrating.

[VP Baltar]

Well I'm happy to look at any new angles you might have, because quite frankly I'm getting exhausted of trying to come at this in a different way. What "sides" are you seeing and what conclusions are you coming to from that?

[VP Baltar]

I thought I made it obvious that role names have nothing to do with alignment.

I'm a NOT.

Juls said she's a NOT awhile back I'm pretty sure.

I'm also NOT very impressed with your "sides" and the lack of conclusions that have come from it.

[VP Baltar]

Trust me, I see no possible direction that Santos is going which makes any kind of logical sense given which "side" he has taken, but I'm willing to hear it out.

Bovine still needs more dead, btw.

[VP Baltar]

VP: what do you think of CKD?

He's in my potential scum pile, which unfortunately has too many names right now.

Is there more to be discussed?

I would appreciate if you hold off for a bit. I want Emp to do some explaning or at least give his conclusions before the day ends.

when the people of this game have pushed the lynch of a lurker, he flipped a power role. also bandwagoned on VT, and a doctor. what im saying is the players have had bad karma with who've they have placed their votes on. at the moment, players are going for the 4th town player dead. which is a mistake. LyLo tommorow, correct?

This is the biggest bunch of BS scare tactics I have seen in awhile. You were on the freaking Jebus lynch I was trying to stop! Or did you forget that now that your head's on the chopping block? Also, you voting patterns yesterday show that you were consistently going after confirmed town players. Now you are trying to play the good guy and say that everyone sure seems to be making a lot of mistakes this game.

I prefer CKD over a CB lynch, personally. But do what you want.

Why? I don't think you've explained why it would be a better lynch.

Juls and canadianbovine have not answered correctly. Maybe they should read again.

Get to the frakking point already. As I said before, Juls already stated that she doesn't believe names have anything to do with alignment.

[VP Baltar]

Hint #1: we already had this discussion with Reckoner regarding the changing role.

Hint #2: mods do give out fakeclaims from time to time.

Hint #3: canadianbovine is scum.

[VP Baltar]

I prefer CKD over a CB lynch, personally. But do what you want.

Why? I don't think you've explained why it would be a better lynch.

[VP Baltar]

also it was the way he said it......the prasing and spacing.

Which refutes none of the points I made.

[VP Baltar]

It's Korean.

Also, I have no clue why you think Emptyger is scum other than 'he's acting weird' and your 'number two suspect'. Explain.

[VP Baltar]

just a vibe, but mostly process of elimination.

So, the best possible thing you can come up with for a lynch that could lead us to lylo is a "vibe"? How does your PoE work? How did you eliminate people and who else is scum besides emptyger?

do you know what it means (the korean?)

It was translated earlier in the thread, or you could put it in a translator if you don't believe that. I just recognize it as Korean because I have friends who are Korean.

[VP Baltar]

here is the translation:
"He appears she which likes her to be knowing"

Naturally it's nonsense.

I ran it through 4 translators and that's what i was from 3 of them.

the other one had it as:
"He took her and her, who is known to have expected"


still nonsense.

My guess is that he put an english phrase into a translator to get the phrase he pasted there. I doubt that it would retranslate into anything intelligible.

[VP Baltar]

I agree with CDB on this.

[VP Baltar]

Juls, has anything changed for you? Do you think bovine should still be today's lynch?

Emptyger, I'm still waiting on the conclusions from your reread? Who do you think is scum and who is not now that you have reevaluated whatever info you claim to have? No more dilly-dallying.

CDB-I don't think I have a very clear indication of who you think is scum. Little help here.

[VP Baltar]

I agree that CB is appealing to emotion rather than honestly defending himself.

I want to hear from CDB on that issue, since he has experience with him. If anyone else has experience with CB, please pitch in your two cents here if you think this fits his town or scum meta.

[VP Baltar]

I’m sorry if I gave the impression that I would definitely be revealing something significant today. At this point, I don’t expect to be. I can elaborate on [737] if you’d like, but for the most part it won’t be directly related to what prompted my reread, just incidental things I noticed in the course of it. (Actually, I should probably do this anyway, but running to work now.)

My main concern is that if you are town and the scum come after you tonight, your information dies with you. Obviously it is a calculated risk to reveal, but it's not going to help us if you just simply die when there is something we should know.

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP: Of course, if you don't think it will be that helpful at this point, then it is best to just keep it to yourself for now.

[VP Baltar]

So with that, I'm still trying to decide who I think I'd rather lynch today.

Well, it sounds like you'd prefer a reckoner lynch, correct?

[VP Baltar]

CB? does anyone else know if he is posting elsewhere?

I don't. Let's find out.

CB, can you link us to all of your ongoing games please?

[VP Baltar]

[outguess the mod time] in my little world, isnt a safeclaim usually just giving you a name that isnt used by others, or a role name?

No. I've received full fakeclaims before. Depends on the mod.

Reckoner probably knows me best [better then CDB], last 3 games i've been in have been with him, and CDB died early in...the game he was talking [not remembering the number right now]

I know you hate meta and all Reck, but surely you have some insight into if this seems closer to bovine's town play or scum play.

I'll check the game you linked in a bit.

[VP Baltar]

he said you played 3 games together and already linked that one. What were the others?

[VP Baltar]

nyeh...reading CB's game as scum hasn't reassured me about his lynch.

Did anyone else look at it or care to give a comment?

[VP Baltar]

Deadline is on Wednesday 16th September

[VP Baltar]

Well, we're waiting to hear from Santos. That wasn't a hammer was it?

[VP Baltar]

ok, cool. Santos, speak up.

[VP Baltar]

Although, it’s getting to be a better question why you keep giving quick denials that don’t hold up and as little explanation as possible, instead of a straight answer.

What really gets me is that he is doing absolutely no scum hunting now that he is under suspicion. He's staying very quiet and in the background, and only pops in occasionally to tell us how bad his lynch is. If he thinks you are scum, why is he not actively pursuing your lynch? It's not like you've been beyond suspicion this game and people would be unwilling to listen. He has a very resigned scum feel about him right now.

Reckoner lying is a big point in your favor.

About his question? If so, that bothers the hell out of me too. I don't see why the mod would respond to everyone else and not Reckoner.

Attn: DID ANYONE ELSE RECEIVE A QUESTION, BUT NOT GET A REPLY FROM THE MOD AFTER ANSWERING?

Incidentally, how come you’re not worried about CB self-hammering, like you were Reckoner?

It was basically me gambiting to get hypo-scum Reckoner to hammer himself and take the doubt out of it. Him not doing it certainly doesn't make him town, but I figured it was worth the effort.

Also, is there something in particular we should be looking at in CB’s prior?

If you're referring to his meta, I suggest it. That is the only thing nagging about me with his lynch. He actually seems more proactive as scum in the linked games, but I don't see it as exactly deterring his lynch here.

his claim was almost exactly what my PM looks like. I understand VP's fake claim idea, but fake claims (provided by the mod) are rare and never right on...like this.

I think you said it before, but what was your feelings on Reckoner's claim?

[VP Baltar]

what claim?

The whole part where he claimed his role and gave insight into his role pm said. Are you still not caught up in the game?

[VP Baltar]

CKD not paying attention at all really bothers me here. Lynch worthy bothering.

[VP Baltar]

how do you know I am not paying attention...

Because you miss things like this:

[qutoe="reckoner"]Let me not quote the PM directly then.

I'm Kate, I used to be a fugitive, I proved myself as a leader on the island, now I'm looking after Aaron, I'm a cop, I can investigate once per night, but my role might change during the course of the game. [/quote]

That is what I was asking you to assess, since you think the PM talk clears CB, but you don't believe Reckoner. I want your opinion on what he says his role PM is.

[VP Baltar]

GAH, tag fail.

EBWOP:

Let me not quote the PM directly then.

I'm Kate, I used to be a fugitive, I proved myself as a leader on the island, now I'm looking after Aaron, I'm a cop, I can investigate once per night, but my role might change during the course of the game.

That is what I was asking you to assess, since you think the PM talk clears CB, but you don't believe Reckoner. I want your opinion on what he says his role PM is.

[VP Baltar]

VP you have a meta of me as scum...do I typically "not pay attention" as scum? That statement from you knowing the game we shared is interesting....lynchable interesting..lol

heh. One game is hardly a scum meta, but it was a funny joke.

[VP Baltar]

I'm talking about the wording and spacing of his claim, since you declared that was CB's saving grace. I wanted you to compare the two and tell me what differences you see between them are since you believe one and not the other.

Also, why such a strong reaction from a simple question?

If I'm reading above correctly, your main reasons for wanting me lynched is that I said it is possible CB has a fake claim and that you haven't been paying close enough attention. Is that correct?

[VP Baltar]

this is a scummy move...the game is slowing so you want to stir something else...

What is the scum motivation for that?

I'll gladly answer your question, though they are quite horrible and pointless:

in that game VP, did I not pay attention..or did I pay attention?

Honestly, I can't speak to this very well. I died the night after I replaced into that game. At your hands in fact. I didn't pay close enough attention after I was gone to fairly assess if you were closely paying attention or not. I thought you were more townish in that game than here, but you also were actually hunting the other scum team, which is likely not the case here.

Have I or have I not already expressed my opnion (pages ago) about Reck's claim?

Not in the way I am asking.

Who here is not really paying attention to not know that?

This is horribly pointless question.

and now I have given you my opinion again..why did you ask now?

Again you didn't answer what I'm actually asking you to do here, which is compare them and tell me the difference.

re: claims- the recently completed ViPod had full claims written by the mod. You said you know of a game that had them. They are not impossible, which is why I said that a claim's wording and spacing should not be the sole reason that you believe someone's claim. It is a possiblity that the mod wrote full claims, why is that impossible in your mind since you have indeed seen it before?

[VP Baltar]

what do you gather from all of that?

What I don't understand is why you believed CB's and not Reckoner's. Look closely at the formatting and you'll see it is exactly the same:

Name:

I'm Kate

I am juliet burke

History section:

I used to be a fugitive

I worked for the others 3 years ago

Current status:

I proved myself as a leader on the island, now I'm looking after Aaron

and have since joined the islanders

Role:

I'm a cop

I am vanilla town

Powers:

I can investigate once per night

my special power is to vote, and my night power is the power of sleep

Disclaimer:

my role might change during the course of the game

my role may change over time.

So, I don't see how you can say you can't "vouch" for Reckoner's claim because he is a power role. The formatting is exactly the same. Reckoner claiming exactly what he did actually made me back off because it was close to my PM as well.

I wanted you to explain the difference to me because I think it is very feasible that CB either has a fake claim, or simply wrote his claim in the same format as Reckoner's previous claim.

I don't see how you didn't buy reckoner's claim but you were very quick to call CB pretty much confirmed town, especially since he could have directly copied Reckoner's claim and inserted the VT part.

Also, wtf is with the unprompted claim? That makes no sense whatsoever.

And where is zoneace and santos?

[VP Baltar]

*drumroll*

[VP Baltar]

*arms increasingly tired from drumrolling*

[VP Baltar]

So Santos, from what I gather from your giant post, you think we should be scumhunting. Brilliant.

What is an iron townie?

What do you think of ckd bugging out earlier today? Zone and CDB, what did you think of ckd's little fit?

[VP Baltar]

what fit? I must have missed it.

Start from the very last question I asked him on page 37 (post 924) and read through my interaction with him on page 38, particularly where he claims and OMGUS votes me.

Juls, what are your feelings on that?

Also, I never got any replys, but can everyone who was asked a question state in their next post if they received a pm from the mod after they answered.

I did. Juls did. Reckoner did not. Zone has not been asked a question. I'm unsure (or can't recall) for everyone else.

Like zone said, lets get a comprehensive list going.

[VP Baltar]

Someone said we all should know that our roles can change? Where does it state that?

My understanding is that everyone's role pm says this. Am I incorrect or is this a scum slip of the grandest fashion?

[VP Baltar]

Like zone said, lets get a comprehensive list going.

Then do it, lol.

Answer my question and maybe I could.

[VP Baltar]

looks like I signed off just in time last night to miss all of the excitement....

Oh, but of course, MOAR NAME CLAIMS PL0X.

No, you need to be lynched for even thinking that mass claim is a good idea on Day 2. There are already way too many people who have claimed at this point in the game, and outting more serves no practical purpose for the town.

also VP in reference to the Reck claim...it is hard for me to swallow..but given what I know about my PM and seeing CB claim, it clears Reck enough to not vote him today....so on some level I dont believe, CB's claim indirectly confirms Reck...so for the time being, I dont think Reck should be today lynch.

But why were you quick to say that Reckoner's claim was bad when it is the same exact formatting as CBs? That is what I'm really not understanding here. I don't see how, since they are formatted similarly, CB's "indirectly confirms Reck" or his is somehow inherently more believable than reckoner's. That is what I would like you to explain to me.

If she is claiming Jin that puts me in a tougher spot as there is more stuff in my PM that will clearly make me have to take my vote off of her.

This is one magically changing PM you have here. Pretty awesome.

BUT HE WAS A TOWNIE. it doesn't matte if he was an other, starting on the island is not indicative of starting vanilla.

Thank you. For christ's sake this discussion about what being on the island and off the island means is ridiculously stupid.

attn all: The game is not going to be crackable based on the flavor. Any decent mod is going to go out of his/her way to prevent this. Names mean nothing either, how about some scumhunting?

In that same vein, CDB hasn't said shit for a long time and CB seems quite happy to lurk his way through while Santos tries to out everyone's role. This is starting to get very frustrating now.

I'm going to go out on a limb and ask what do you all think about lynching a claimed miller who hasnt provided a name?

You can add 'and won't be providing a name' to that list as well. Some of us actually would like the town to win this game.


The following people need to be lynched today, and I support any of their wagons:
CB
CDB
Santos
ckd

I believe a majority if not all of the scum are in that grouping.

Juls and Zone are obv town for now and I wouldn't be supporting wagons on either of them.

[VP Baltar]

CB's claim indirectly confirms what reck said BECAUSE of the island and what my PM says (already explained this, are you "not paying attention"?)

VP, would like to hear your case against me....3 points? maybe a vote? or do you want to wait to see which wagon gets bigger first?

So, you are willing to argue that because reckoner didn't type his claim out with the same spacing as yours that his claim is less believable, even though it has all of the same exact parts in the same exact order and was presented before anyone else had claimed?

Are you serious? Do you normally make sure that when you type your claim out it matches the spacing of your PM?

And don't try to give me the 'I was just skimming' argument because you were relatively active at that time and seemed to be up to speed on things.

As for reasons why you could be scum:

1) Your criteria for believing one claim versus another are simply ridiculous. I understand your spacing argument, and it's quite idiotic. The spacing of my PM is different from what both CB and Reckoner wrote. So, what does that prove? Nothing since they are not copying and pasting from the PMs

2) Your conniption fit at me calling you potential scum looks bad to me. This is coupled with your pointless OMGUS because I said you weren't following along. What is also interesting is that first you played it like you were indeed not following along (making the argument that as scum you are inclined to follow along), and now you are edging closer and closer to saying that I am misrepping you because you have allegedly already explained the things I have been asking. Let me ask you then, do you think you have been paying close attention to this game?

3) You are continually pushing the game toward the flavor issue, which is completely pointless and not helpful in finding scum. Who do you think is scum, apart from myself and why?

4) Your reasons for voting me are quite possibly the worst I have heard all game:

my main reason is that you are saying that a.) I am not paying attention to the game which is untrue...

At best this is a difference in opinion. At worst you are openly stating your are OMGUSing me.

b.) that that is scummy (if it was true..)...

Ok, so your second reason is that your first reason points out I'm scummy? wtf?

c.) you were kept pushing on the CB lynch after I vouched for the claim..

Oh man, you're so right, I should totally believe you because you said so...and stuff.

Also, I noticed you didn't reply to some of my counter arguments to the rest of your "reasons". I'll cut out the stuff about the claims that you answered:

this is a scummy move...the game is slowing so you want to stir something else...

What is the scum motivation for that?

in that game VP, did I not pay attention..or did I pay attention?

Honestly, I can't speak to this very well. I died the night after I replaced into that game. At your hands in fact. I didn't pay close enough attention after I was gone to fairly assess if you were closely paying attention or not. I thought you were more townish in that game than here, but you also were actually hunting the other scum team, which is likely not the case here.

re: claims- the recently completed ViPod had full claims written by the mod. You said you know of a game that had them. They are not impossible, which is why I said that a claim's wording and spacing should not be the sole reason that you believe someone's claim. It is a possiblity that the mod wrote full claims, why is that impossible in your mind since you have indeed seen it before?

[VP Baltar]

Why is Juls “obvtown”? I read her as being shut-up-Santos-before-you-do-more-damage.

Mostly meta reasons. Juls and I have been playing a lot of games together recently (in which she was always town), so my gut says town on her based on that. I'm not ruling out the possibility of her being scum, but for the today it's not even really a consideratioin of mine.

[VP Baltar]

did anyone ever see what reckoner wrote when he QUOTED his pm and the mod deleted?

I did. It was basically just a more detailed version of what is up there now, i.e. he may or may not have directly quoted from his pm.

Also, lol @ ckd. How about you respond to my points and questions and then we can talk if you are worth lynching. No need to get your panties in a twist.

[VP Baltar]

I'm not into pissing contests. Now play the game and stop pouting.

[VP Baltar]

As effective as false dilemmas are, I'm actually trying to figure this game out and what you are doing is in no way helping town if you are indeed town. The best way you can help town is to actually analyze the information we have and try to find scum from it.

As I asked you before, apart from myself who do you think is scum and why?

[VP Baltar]

do you think I am scum?

You are one of my scum suspects, yes. Does that guarantee you are scum? As much as I like to trust my abilities, I have been wrong before. Answering my questions would go a long way toward me be able to say with more confidence either way.

[VP Baltar]

do you think I am scum?

do you think I am scum?

You are one of my scum suspects, yes. Does that guarantee you are scum? As much as I like to trust my abilities, I have been wrong before. Answering my questions would go a long way toward me be able to say with more confidence either way.

[VP Baltar]

Honestly CB, your guess is as good as mine.

[VP Baltar]

1) You go from “obvtown” to “gut for meta reasons that only you have”.
2) I’m leery that you apparently need me to point out the logical fallacy here. (Consider the following analogy: “Juls hasn’t been eaten by giant purple alligators in your many recent games. Juls was town in your many recent games. Therefore, since Juls hasn’t been eaten by giant purple alligators in this game, she’s town in this game!”)
3) More seriously, you’re implying that if Juls were mafia, she’d stupidly behave so obviously differently that you’d be able to catch her? That’s almost implausibly absurd thinking on your part.
4) I’m rather dubious that there’s a precedent that explains Juls behavior here. She seemed to be trying as hard as she did anything up until that point to get the day to end before Santos spoke (once ignoring my directly pointing out that we were still waiting on Santos). Then she tried to convince him to drop his argument. And she abandons the very principle she was arguing to do the very thing she is allegedly arguing against.

For those of us who haven’t played a lot of games recently with Juls and you, can you provide any specifics of what is so telling to you?

What you are essentially describing above is what meta is...I don't understand what makes you so uncomfortable about it. Having played a couple games in a row with Juls, I have noticed a few different aspects that seem indicative to her being town. These elements seem to be present in this game, and so that is reassuring to me. Now, going off of your analogy, yes, she could be faking these things and fooling me. However, I would argue that the things I am looking at might be difficult to fake (not that they are impossible). Her suspicions have also been close to mine throughout the game, so that makes me feel better as well given that I know I am town.

Her not being around as often as normal complicates this, obviously, but there is little that can be done with that since she has school.

Yes, the Santos thing looks sort of bad and I noted it as well, but several members of the town (yourself included iirc) looked awful at the beginning of the day to me because they wanted to lynch Reckoner with almost no discussion whatsoever. That may or may not have been a royal mistake, but given the revelations this day has brought I am glad that I went out of my way to stop it.

I dont' appreciate you trying to say I changed my position on Juls from "obv town" to something lesser for meta reasons. Juls looks obvtown to me right now, but I never said that had to apply to someone else's read. I was stating that I would not be supporting her (or zone's) lynch today, and as far as I am aware I'm entitled to my own opinion on the matter.


Welcome back, CDB! I like your 1099. I'm not as big of a fan of:

The "wager" with VPB is bizarre. I can't see much reason to do it as either town or scum, so I'm just going to write it off as one of CKD's eccentricities and ask him to drop it.

Which looks a bit like coaching. What is your read on ckd at this moment? Do you think he is more likely to be town or scum (based on his overall play, not just the spaz attack)?

Happy Scumday, Porochaz!

[VP Baltar]

If you had to pick three scum, who would they be and why?

[VP Baltar]

I would like to wait for this:

Question going out

to be resolved before the hammer falls. Let's wait a day or two.

[VP Baltar]

What I would like to hear is if that is indeed what Santos was insinuating. Santos what connection to Juls (Jin) are you proposing with your statement? Have you communicated with her in this game?

[VP Baltar]

What are vegas' odds on the wager? Is there a spread?

[VP Baltar]

Does that mean something other than “Juls is obviously town” to you?

Yes, as I stated before, I'm not asking anyone to take me at my word. I'd rather not give away specifically what I'm looking at because that gives her information to use if she is ever scum in a game with me.

you’re implying that if Juls were mafia, she’d stupidly behave so obviously differently that you’d be able to catch her.

That's not what I'm implying at all actually. I'm not saying it's something bold that would be blatantly obvious to anybody, but this seems like town Juls to me based on a certain honesty I see in her play that is comparable to her other town games.

I'm curious why you have such an issue with that. Also, why do you think it's ok for me to say it about zone and not Juls? I don't have any experience playing with zone at all, so it seems like the vice versa would be the valid argument to make.

[VP Baltar]

I am betting my life that VP is scum.

That is like totally serious and stuff. Your buddy bovine is getting lynched today. You can come tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

My guess is that ckd really really does not want us to lynch bovine (cult or something of that nature perhaps?), so the best course of action is to stick with our guns.

[VP Baltar]

VP..WHY ARE YOU AVOIDING MY QUESTIONS?

It's pretty humorous at this point. Keep up the tantrums, though, I'm digging it.

[VP Baltar]

you cant answer where I fall on your scum list?

I

could

answer that question, but I'd rather lynch bovine and watch you squirm while we're doing it.

[VP Baltar]

What's protown about spazzing out and doing nothing productive toward helping find scum?

Why is your lynch so much better than a bovine lynch? Wouldn't they prove the same exact thing according to you?

[VP Baltar]

@Emp-

1) Juls is obvtown to me for meta reasons. Why is this incomprehensible to you? Also, don't use quotes for things I did not say, thanks.

2) Just because I've never played with her as scum does not mean I haven't skimmed her scum games.

3) Where are you getting this "stupid play" thing from because I'm not getting it at all. You think that the only way meta is useful is if people make glaringly bad mistakes? It's a lot more subtle than that.

4) So because I said Juls is obv town to me, that means to you that I'm incapable of finding something she did suspicious? I believe in never marking someone off of your list unless they are confirmed...that includes town reads.

There is in-thread evidence that Zoneace is town

I would like to know what you think those actions are.

[VP Baltar]

If you are proposing that your statement that Zoneace was obvtown was baseless

What? Where the hell are you getting that from?

Why did you say that Zoneace was "obvtown"?

His accusations and questions have been on point all game with my own. The only thing that worries me is potential buddying, but given the scummy play of some other players in this game that's not really anything I'm too worried about right now.

I also find his scumhunting to be relatively consistent, a town tell in my opinion.