Mini 830: Time Bomb Mafia (Game over!)

[Seraphim]

Alright, let's end this nonsense immediately. This has gotten far too silly. We have thirty days. That's it. Thirty. Blooming. Days. To find four scumbags. This might be tricky. As such, I am declaring LAL(Lynch All Lurkers). Any players who need a prod get lynched ASAP. This will stop players from lurkering with impunity. This will also hopefully create more scum slips as they will have to post content or die. Nightless set-up...this is prime strategy.

Vote: llamaeatataco

If a replacement is not found in 72 hours, let's lynch him. He's wasting our time anyway.

29:22:40:19

[Seraphim]

Damn, I was hoping to have some type of real time display in the first post. That would be cool.

I second Konowa, we cannot be screwing around with lurkers in this game.

Vote: Seraphim

because I want Empire at War to start NOW.

Tell people to join faster!

29:22:40:03

[Seraphim]

Vote: Datadanne

Based on his lurker play in the game I modded (viewtopic.php?t=11336) I think a vote on sight is in order.

So is this a random vote or a policy vote?

29:22:32:28

[Seraphim]

It's an IGMEOY vote.

Sorry, but most players simply state IGMEOY rather than a vote. Now, answer the question: is this a random vote or a policy lynch vote? Seeing as he hasn't posted yet, it can only be one or the other.

29:22:29:40

[Seraphim]

I was going to make a quote wall, but let me explain my position instead. In the beginning of the game, there is little information. That is why the random vote stage exists, to generate discussion and reads on other players. That is the natural state of the game.

However, players also may drop votes based on past play and possibly even seek that player's lynch. I call this a policy lynch or a policy vote, made because of a player's play in other games rather than this one, threatening to seek their lynch.

The reason for my question is that I have seen some players make a "random" vote on another player because of how they played in another game but not seeking their lynch in any way.

Even if you're not seeking their lynch right

now

you said you might in the future. This makes it a policy vote.

I suppose a better question would have been "are you seeking Data's lynch or not?". I hope this explains it. There's nothing wrong with it, I was just curious.

I do, however, find Seraphim's attempt to turn Artem's vote into an either/or situation a little disconcerting.

Why?

29:20:39:49

[Seraphim]

vote: seraphim

lynching lurkers is fine, but trying to off someone who hasn't confirmed is just plain rude.

note to all(mostly to self): be sure and understand rule #3. it may be important later on.

I thought we were hunting scum, not rude people.

It looks like we may be getting a replacement for him anyway. If so, I will stop trying to get him lynched. Generally, in the time it takes to get a replacement, time will have been wasted. We can't waste time.

Why is rule 3 important? All that it says is that the vote count doesn't reset between days.

29:17:01:17

[Seraphim]

Failure to confirm is not indicative of alignment since the player may not have even read their role PM. DJ is calling you rude, not the player you're voting.

Exactly. He joined the game and failed to meet his commitment to playing the game meaning that that slot is now vacant. We are not able to get a read on that player until that slot is no longer vacant. If that slot continues to be unfilled, we will lynch that slot as it is wasting our time by not allowing us to achieve a read on that slot. Very simple. Also, while I will try to be courteous, I do not have any pity for lurkers, active or otherwise, especially in a game like this.

The game has been active now for almost a whole a day. How long until we decide someone not posting is lurking?

72 hours is when my vote will be cast on them.

However, please to not consider me lurking if I post Friday at work and then do not post again until Monday morning!

Just don't waste our time and we won't lynch you.

As for the voting, just be careful. Don't let a player get within quick-lynching range unless we want that player to be lynched. L-4 is quick-lynching range so be wary of that come endgame...

seraphim's push and his seemingly ignorant response to the suggestion i have made about being sure to understand rule #3 will be keeping my vote on him until further notice.

"Seemingly ignorant?" I understood the rule, I just didn't understand why it was interesting. I've played nightless games before and I've seen that rule before. I understand now of course but I don't see how that is anti-town or scummy.

Your "case" on me looks like placing a vote on me to look like you're doing something. I've got my eye on you, DJ.

Unvote

Welcome to the game. I don't want you replaced, I want you to post. Which you did. Thank you. Now I can hunt scum.

(I should note that I feel all this talk of lurker watching will most likely have scared any scum out of actually lurking now, so I figure lal would be most ineffective for this game tbh. It should be quite an active game however, which is always good)

Good, that's the point. Let's scare the scum and lynch the lurkers...causing scum slips and an active game. An excellent environment for the town to work in.

Currently, we are more than a day into the game. Three players(Santos, dothefandango, Datadanne) have not posted yet. I hope these players will post soon.

Currently, don_johnson is my biggest suspect for his contrived case on me. I also hope Konowa will answer my question relatively soon.

28:21:13:52

[Seraphim]

It caught my attention Seraphim, because I understood what Artem was/is trying to do. It looked anti-town that you were trying to hard line his actions into an either/or situation, when it was neither.

By doing this, it takes away from the effect of the vote

.

I'm interested in the bolded part. How exactly did my actions make his vote less effective? And why is it anti-town? I was trying to classify his vote. This is not an anti-town action.

28:17:13:40

[Seraphim]

I immediately took Artem's vote to mean post or die. By trying to classify his vote as either random or policy deflates it in my opinion. If I see that a vote on me is random or policy I am not going to take it seriously. That is why I view it as anti-town.

You wouldn't take a policy vote seriously? Why?

28:16:44:30

[Seraphim]

seraphim:

ignorance can be defined as the absence of understanding. you acknowledge that you did not "understand" the implications of rule three yet you attempt to cast suspicions on my statement of "seemingly ignorant" when logically, and by your own admission, my statement was spot on.

I think you misunderstand. Take a look at my response to your "case" on me:

"Seemingly ignorant?" I understood the rule, I just didn't understand why it was interesting. I've played nightless games before and I've seen that rule before.

I understand now of course but I don't see how that is anti-town or scummy.

check the bolded part. You were pretty much saying I was scummy because I didn't understand the implications of rule three.

That's

the problem I have with it.

Also, mislynching a spot because you can't get a read on it would waste more time (literally) than letting the mod fill it. (Unless, of course, the mod fails to fill it within three days.)

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Let's pretend a player flakes out or starts lurking. It will be 72 hours without a post before the mod prods that player. Then that player has 48 more hours to respond to that prod. Even then, they may not replaced. This is wasted time for the entire town of up to FIVE DAYS before a replacement is even

considered

. Let's assume it takes one day to find a replacement(which would be extremely lucky)...that player has been gone from the game for 6 days, one-fifth of our playing time. And what if the lurking player is scum? There is one-third chance of us hitting scum randomly so we gain time by lynching lurkers if they're scum and if they're town, there are less suspects to pursue.

i think sera is the first scum. not trying to tunnel here, but nothing about them is logical. also, he camped his vote on the unconfirmed player attempting to imply that unconfirmed=lurking. if he flips scum i'd look at llama as a scum partner.

Wow, lining up lynches too? I have stated my logic on the matter. You say vote-camping, I say insurance policy. How did I know that llama would be back? I didn't. Hence my vote. Very simple.

Your cases on me are extremely contrived.

So, since you're so eager to go after the spots/players for which you have no reads, care to share what read you got on llama?

He's extremely eager and prove himself after I tried to get him lynched. He's making up for lost time...unfortunately, this is a null-tell. He hasn't brought any thing new to the discussion so I suppose we'll see.

I hope dothefandagno graces us with his presence. Especially since he signed up for my Mini Theme.

28:01:54:33

[Seraphim]

But we're not talking about a flaky lurker. We're talking about an unconfirmed spot,

that the mod already started looking for a replacement for, as stated in post 3.

True. An excellent point. I wanted to show that I am taking a hard stance on lurkers/inactive players in this game. If a replacement had not been found in three days(or llama had not come back), I would have pushed harder for his lynch. But as it stands, this did not happen.

Why did you unvote then? I thought you were interested in lynching players/slots that give you no reads or does that only apply to unfilled slots? If so, can you explain the practical difference between lynching an unfilled slot from which you are unable to get a read and lynching/pressuring a player on whom you have a null read?

I think you misunderstand. I wanted llama lynched because he was not posting. That is the long and short of it. Are you going to lynch a player you have a town read or a null read on? The null read, of course. The more a player posts, the better a read you are going to get on that player. An unfilled slot, an active lurker, a flaker...what do these have in common? You will not get a read on them because they do not post enough. End of story.

In cubic mafia, you mentioned a game which you played with Riceballtail in which you were scum.

Yeah, I'll go get that. Don't expect to form a meta on me though...my play is highly variable and unpredictable.

27:22:16:50

[Seraphim]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10744

This is the game in question.

27:22:16:13

[Seraphim]

Ok I'm all caught up.

While I don't agree with whom Seraphim has pointed his initial vote for, I do agree with his methodology. I wonder why he hasn't changed his vote, though.[/b]

I unvoted. I have not voted for anyone else.

Also, your reasoning contradicts itself.

a.) it's the first day, and there aren't any big leads out there right now. b.) he seems the most anxious to vote,

You say that I am the most anxious to vote...however, you put a vote on me based on very little evidence because there "aren't any big tells out there."

Wouldn't that make you anxious to vote as well?

When another more obvious tell is shown, I will change my vote. For now, it stays.

Vote-parking.

27:19:46:29

[Seraphim]

Just in case it wasn't obvious, I don't think your case warrants a vote.

You agree with my methodology...what exactly does that mean? And why don't you agree with my vote?

I agree, Konowa. It seems like he's building off what others have said about me.

27:19:43:59

[Seraphim]

I get a bad feeling from llama's 66. Not sure why, just thought I'd point it out.

27:19:01:53

[Seraphim]

I'm sorry, I genuinely did not see that he unvoted. Shoot!

UNVOTE

, one thousand apologies Seraphim.

That was the entire basis of your vote? O_o

27:18:15:52

[Seraphim]

Gagh, simul-post.

I will continue to watch llama's posting...you're right, that does look a tad suspect. Fence-sitting while encouraging others to vote you...hmm...

27:18:14:07

[Seraphim]

I'm sorry, I genuinely did not see that he unvoted. Shoot!

UNVOTE

, one thousand apologies Seraphim.

That was the entire basis of your vote? O_o

Yes it was. Like I said, it was all I had to go on at that point. And now that even that is gone, I have nothing. Holding the bag looking like an idiot.

How about this: tell me, excluding Data and Santos who have posted nothing of substance, what you think of each player so far. Intial reaction to each player in the game.

27:18:12:33

[Seraphim]

Here is how I see your play: you are very spastic

Won't deny that.

Yes, all those have a lack of a read in common. This is exactly why you should have kept your vote on llama. He provided you with no better read than an empty spot. By your own standards, this deserves a vote. Yet, you unvote because "now you can hunt scum".

I'm giving him a chance to give me a read. There were other players that provided me no reads at the time. The difference with llama is that he hadn't confirmed. Seeing as he was a new player, I assumed he might have flaked off the site. This was a bad assumption. Therefore, I voted for him.

How is that going by the way? You are not pressuring anyone.

Have you been paying attention? I am trying to question DJ about the case on me, I've been interrogating dothefandango, I've been having this extremely enlightening conversation with you, I had a nice back-and-forth with Konowa, and I'm also attempting to question llama a bit farther and get a read on him.

What did you learn from asking me about my vote? What did you learn from your vote on llama? What was the point of either if you didn't learn anything?

1. I learned that you were extremely touchy about that vote. I also learned that you take stock in the metagame which I will be looking at.
2. I learned that llama is eager not to be lynched.
3. There is a point. There is always a point. By looking at a player's reactions, even to the stupidest things, you gain insight in their mind and how it works which is why I hate lurkers, especially in a game like this.

The ironic part is that you're accusing DJ of trying to appear busy, while you're more guilty of it than he is.

*waggles finger* Now you're bullshitting. How has DJ aided the rest of the town in hunting scum?

Overall, you put a lot of stock in the meta game. However, you underestimate me. I'm spastic because I like to cover as much ground as possible. I want to force players to react, I want to analyze those reactions and hopefully catch scum.

With all that said, I think that we should wagon Santos or Datadanne right about now.

Agreed.

Vote: Datadanne

27:17:49:09

[Seraphim]

Ok Seraphim I'm just going to put my gut reactions. I urge everyone not to freak out by what I say about them, because these are purely hypothetical observations.

Kreriov: Seems to be actively looking for scum.
JamesBond: I like his idea to unvote/confirm vote at L-1, if I read his post correctly.
Llama: I don't like his posts. Period.
Artem: The vote off the bat like that doesn't usually help anyone, but I think he has a valid point. The problem with Artem is how much I hate metagaming, and how much he uses it. I hope to act differently in every game I play, but so far data hasn't changed his ways or responded to Artem, so thus far it isn't a misplaced vote.
don_johnson: Seems like a cooled headed player.

That's all I got so far, I have some things I have to take care of.

You see, Artem? This is a gold mine of information especially when he finishes this post with the other players. If DTF is scum, I'm guessing he will be looking for a llama lynch. He may also be scum with DJ due to his neutral read on him. Cool-headed means little or nothing and is a non-commital read.

27:17:43:57

[Seraphim]

Interesting. Konowa, why wagon Santos instead of Datadanne?

27:17:19:39

[Seraphim]

Um...no. Not really. Shouldn't we try and quickly reach a majority on each player rather than slowly on both of them?

27:17:16:01

[Seraphim]

If the activity of this game keeps up this pace I do not think slow is going to be a problem. If anything, I am more worried that town could start speed wagoning on lurkers and that could hurt us more than it could help us.

Alright. But if Data flips scum, you're next. Just remember that.

27:17:04:06

[Seraphim]

I don't think that sort of language is smart, threatening people like that sounds like you know that person isn't gonna come up scum and thus get two birds for one stone.

Konowa voted for the other lurker rather than bandwagoning Data. I also feel that his latest post may be a result of prodding from his scummates.

That's the second count of double-standards towards DJ. Why?

There is a major difference between the statement DJ made and my own. His statement was based on little evidence. However, I make it clear above that Data and Konowa may be scummates together and there is a much higher likelihood of it than llama and I being scummates.

Jackass, Why even the thought that i would flip?

Your first real post is just an insult towards me? Tsk tsk. You will flip because we are going to lynch you because you have posted no content in this game.

EVERYONE SHOULD BE PUTTING A VOTE ON EITHER DATADANNE OR SANTOS RIGHT NOW. DATA IS ACTIVE LURKING, SANTOS HAS NOT POSTED ANYTHING SINCE THE POST FROM HIS BLACKBERRY.

GOGOGO!

26:22:27:07

[Seraphim]

OrangePenguin has put in minimal content since D1, I will admit, but not only have Data and Santos posted NO content(active lurking on Data's part, just plain lurking on Santos's part), they have a reputation of poor play and such.

I trust OP will grace us with his presence soon enough. llama isn't lurking even if he hasn't answered the question yet.

I refuse to slow down. We have 27 days. I will not waste a single second.

26:21:51:46

[Seraphim]

If lynching lurkers is such a great idea, DTF, how come you aren't contributing to the two lurker wagons?

[Seraphim]

OP has at least posted content since the beginning of the game. Santos and Data have not. Besides that, Data's game-related moves have been to call me a jackass and then replace out.

I still don't understand why I'm a suspect. I'm eager to lynch lurkers, yes, for the numerous reasons I have stated. If you want to continue wasting the town's time, go right ahead.

Otherwise, let's lynch some lurkers.

[Seraphim]

Doublepost.

Since DD is replacing out, and Santos already got pressure on him im gonna do this:

Vote: Orangepenguin

Maybe this will get him to come out and play

I think you misunderstand the entire concept of Lynch All Lurkers. Players lurk. We lynch them. I suggest giving OP one more day and joining the Santos or Data wagons so the town can accomplish something.

[Seraphim]

I'm not one-hundred percent yet but I have a feeling that JamesBond is scum.

[Seraphim]

Alright, alright...

I still think Data or Santos would make better lynches however, the time is ripe to lynch Orange Penguin and if that's where the votes lie...

Unvote
Vote: Orangepenguin

Concerning JamesBond: mere gut. I don't have anything concrete, I am merely stating a certain unease in regards to his posting. Like I said, nothing concrete, and it may just be paranoia.

I was defending OP mainly because I wanted to give him a chance to post(which he did have, he was posting in other games). Santos said he would post but didn't, Data made a very odd replacement request as soon as the pressure was on, and I found that more deserving of votes.

[Seraphim]

No, you can only vote one person at a time.

Artem, the point is to lynch the lurkers. I am down for any lurker lynch and OP is the place to be right now.

[Seraphim]

Unvote

More content later.

25:00:15:21

[Seraphim]

What made you change your mind about OrangePenguin...?

Haha, I can't call you scummy for a perfectly legitimate question. I changed my mind about OrangePenguin because the time between his last post and the current date had exceeded 72 hours which is going to be my limit for lurkers. That's where the votes were, I want to lynch all lurkers, I know where my vote is going. My vote is gone now, of course, I just hope he scum hunts more.

I do not like the op wagon.

Why does this look like Konowa covering his ass just in case OP did indeed flip town?

I just want to point something before I continue: if you're not going to be able to post for a while, inform the rest of us so we don't try and lynch you. It nearly happened to OP because he didn't post in this game for a while.

I don't like the eagerness of players to lynch lurkers. Yes, lurkers bring games down, blah blah blah, but for this game, scum are going to try to pass off as town, and posting more is important as ever for them, since time is a factor.

If you have a better idea on what to do with lurkers, feel free to tell me, as I'm all ears.

Except, if a player isn't reading the thread, pressuring them doesn't quite work.

STATE IF YOU'RE NOT READING THE THREAD DAMMIT. You entire attitude is pissing me off, like you expect us to read your mind. If you're not going to be onsite or able to post, tell the rest of us or we'll think you're lurking instead of not reading the game. You sound surprised but you shouldn't be. I stated at the beginning of the game that we should lynch all lurkers. Some people agreed with me. Or maybe you didn't read that part?

Basically, Santos lied about not posting and Data did something suspicious, but because I was more worried about other games and posted in those, instead of bothering to check this thread. I love how you have to defend your reasons for defending me.

I want. To lynch. All fucking lurkers. In a normal game, lurkers don't need to be lynched, we have time to replace them. However, in a game with a set time limit, lurkers are wasting our time. Not posting in a game like this is ANTI-TOWN. Who is ANTI-TOWN? SCUM! I would have been more forgiving if you had posted, "Sorry guys, focusing on other games, I'll catch up with this in a bit," or something along those lines. But you didn't. This makes it look like you are lurking, someone to be LYNCHED.

That way, tomorrow, you can lynch either Data or Santos, and if you find anything concrete on Bond, James Bond, you could possibly lynch him! Isn't lining up lynches fun?

If they aren't replaced in the meantime, yes. And as for JamesBond, wow, I'm not even allowed to post my suspicions. I'll just sit down and shut up and let the master scumhunter and martyr Orangepenguin take care of everything!

Im starting to change my mind about the LAL-thingy. I belive that lurrking right now is a null-tell, because it CANT be active-lurking, noone would be that stupid, not as town, not as scum.

Changed my mind. We gotta do SOMETHING, clock is ticking.

*face-palm*

24:23:19:26

[Seraphim]

And now for a case on Konowa.

Also, anyone lurking and/or stalling will be considered scummy.

Excellent, great, good to know, keep this post in mind later.

I have no problem wagoning lurkers in this game.

Vote: Santos

Alright, great, a vote for Santos. However, he says he has no problem "wagoning" lurkers yet he has started a wagon rather than building on someone else's bandwagon(like the Data wagon for instance).

If anything, I am more worried that town could start speed wagoning on lurkers and that could hurt us more than it could help us.

Wait, what? This contradicts the quoted posts above. Apparently, he

does

have a problem wagoning lurkers.

Note: I am not including Data because he has replaced out.

This is the second instance of Konowa ignoring Datadanne for no real reason. He doesn't even comment on the strange circumstances of his replacing out.

From these posts, what can we conclude?

There are definite connections between Konowa and two other players, notably Orangepenguin and Datadanne. Both of them were getting wagoned for lurking and Konowa did follow suit, preferring to continue voting Santos.

We can also conclude that Konowa is being cautious when it comes to voting lurkers. In his opening posts, he says anyone lurking/stalling will be considered scummy, yet this doesn't apply to OP or to Datadanne.

Notice that Konowa only gets uptight about wagoning lurkers once Datadanne starts getting wagoned and then later OrangePenguin.

I think lynching Konowa and determining if he is scum is now of paramount importance. If he does indeed flip scum, there is a high likelihood of Datadanne being scum.

I don't think Orangepenguin is scum as Konowa stated that he did not like the OP wagon, setting up for an "I-told-you-so" moment if OP had indeed been lynched.

The other problem, if you read him in isolation, is the strangely neutral tone all of his posts take. It's off and I noticed it almost immediately but didn't state it outright. I highly recommend reading Konowa in isolation to get what I'm talking about.

Vote: Konowa

Normally I would vote for Datadanne or Santos but I am nearly positive I have caught scum in Konowa.

24:22:58:52

[Seraphim]

Konowa, while I agree that Llama doesn't look the most town, I don't think his attempted vote on Santos was distancing. In fact, I think it looks like you're jumping at shadows. Besides his lurking, I see no reason to suspect of being scum(then again, I haven't dissected his massive wall yet).

Tomorrow afternoon, I plan on going through the massive wall of text that Santos built, work on getting Konowa-scum lynched, and figure out what the deal is with llama and why everyone wants him lynched.

Until then, good night.

23:15:42:57

[Seraphim]

Santos: That was the best post I think I've ever seen you make. Usually I don't like PBPAs, but this was a pretty good one. Don't make any more giant walls(they can be as bad as lurkers) but I'm definitely glad you are here. Keep it up.

I get some explanation from your last (good) post, but i dont really feel a proper difference with OP and Data.

Maybe its because im drunk atm, but can you please give more info?

Don't drink and scumhunt, my good man. XP

Anyway, the difference between Data and OP is that Konowa ignored the Data wagon completely and then proceeded to condemn the OP wagon, not for its speed, but because one player failed to look at Santos's recent posts on site.

I clearly stated why I did not like the op wagon, Seraphim. I did not like how Kreriov went out of his way to check that op was posting in another game but not Santos. That does not feel scummy to you at all? It feels to me like scum covering for another.

I could say the exact same thing for you and Data or OP.

Now please explain how I am uptight/cautious about wagoning lurkers.

You had a problem with lynching OP who was definitely lurking. You didn't just say that competing wagons were win for town, either. You condemned the lynch, based off of one player's comment that OP had posted elsewhere. This doesn't make any sense! You stated in your first post that lurking was scummy, why should one lurker be different from another?

More Santos votes please.

Wow, right after his giant wall? More Konowa votes please.

That makes LAL policy pretty useless.

No, it makes it even more important. Once players start lurking again, that's when we POUNCE. This should stop lurkers in the first place.

The fact that my wagon died as I returned showed how confident most of you all felt about it. Yet you all were willing to lynch me. Kind of scary for the town if it moves as much as the wind.

Two words: "lurker lynch". You stopped lurking. We stopped lynching.

It is statements like these that make me twitch. We need to be hunting scum, not lurkers.

This is a fail attempt for Konowa to look pro-town. You stated earlier that lurking was scummy, therefore making lurkers scum. Are you taking back this statement when it applies to your scummates?

Seraphim, as I have pointed out from the beginning, is making wild accusations and seems really eager to vote. This, in my opinion, has always been a scum tell.

A very weak scumtell at best. There are much stronger scumtells out there. Look for contradictions.

Good point about Konowa not hammering, when (if) we learn out the alignments of either Konowa or OP that will be something to remember, as you so well said.

Unfortunately, it doesn't mean anything. If Konowa hadn't condemned the wagon, I would have agreed with you. If Konowa flips scum, it would be highly unlikely that OP is scum with him.

Why OP over DD or Santos?

Read the game as I have answered this point several times.

And for the record: competing wagons IS pro-town, so you can drop the "he voted Santos over DD" argument

Out of the three lurkers, Konowa's most likely scumpartner is DD. He has hounded Santos, far too much to be bussing IMO, and condemned the OP wagon, setting up to look town later when OP flipped town. Here's a list of my reads so far:

Town:
Seraphim(dur, of course I'm town, I'm always town)
Kreriov(solid town read on him, don't think he's scum)
Santos(Despite his early game lurking, I really don't think he's scum)
DJ(I thought he was scum at first, but looking at his posts in a different light, he may be town too, very close to neutral)

Neutral:
JamesBond(At first I thought he was scum...however, I'm not sure if this read is correct or not. He may need looking into)
Artem(seems fixated on me, not sure if he's scum or not, only time will tell, defends Konowa, interesting)
ThAdmiral(needs to post more, last time he posted little even if it was town, he was scum)
orangepenguin(I am almost positive that OP is town, but he's down there just in case I'm wrong about Konowa)
DTF(I don't think he's scum but...same as JamesBond, needs more looking into)


Scum:
Konowa(I have stated my opinions on the matter)
llama(there is just something off about him. Is he newbietown...or newbiescum? Difficult to read)
Datadanne(lurker, replaces out under slightest pressure, should be lynched immediately after Konowa)

---

Unvote
Vote: Datadanne

I want to lynch this lurker. Konowa can wait. I'm tired of wasting time. OP's lynch was scum-driven but I also believe that Santos's was too.

LYNCH THIS LURKER! SCREW COMPETING WAGONS, WE NEED INFORMATION!

22:16:32:31

[Seraphim]

BTW, sorry for the wall and the lack of Santos analysis but I have a strong town feeling on Santos and I don't want to lynch him unless he starts lurking again.

22:16:25:22

[Seraphim]

2) Why do you think Santos is town? Cant really see it, maybe ive missed something?

It's just a general gut read. There are scummier players and lurkers out there.

As for the rest, maybe when DD flips scum, you'll think otherwise. I am nearly 100% sure that Konowa is scum. You're not. Not terribly surprising, we're only eight pages in.

And let's not get friendly until after the game where we laugh about how paranoid we were of each other. Until then, my gut still says you're scum even if my head says you probably aren't.

22:16:13:06

[Seraphim]

I highly doubt that, Konowa. I think the supposed distancing between llama and Santos is a feeble attempt at scumhunting. I look at that post and I see him attemptin

I really don't understand the llama case besides the poor play he's made but I suppose it's worth a look if so many people are suddenly bandwagoning him.

If Data has a replacement, I guess I'll let time tell if he's scum or not.

Speaking of time, we are RUNNING OUT OF IT.

21:21:23:31

[Seraphim]

Yeah, sorry. Allow me to finish that statement.

I look at that post and I see him attempting to vote both lurkers at once. I'm not saying what he did was pro-town, but I'm fairly sure that what he did wasn't distancing.

21:21:02:26

[Seraphim]

Hmm.

Unvote
Vote: llamaeatataco

Took a look at the posts. Besides some of the other points people have pointed out, there is also some active lurking going on and I'm not sure I really see any serious scumhunting on his parts besides weird and random accusations on DTF.

Oh yes, sorry for the doublepost, but I will say that santos has now posted more words than me in this thread (I think) So I can't say that he's lurking. -_-

This should stop any accusations of distancing. He seems disappointed that he can't vote for Santos anymore.

21:20:38:09

[Seraphim]

How can I trust your gut read on Santos when I know your gut read is shit, considering your gut thinks me scum. Thats a paradox I cant handle at this time of day.

My gut has been wrong before but also has a nasty habit of being correct too. Which is why I never vote someone unless my head and my gut are in consensus.

21:19:03:11

[Seraphim]

I wonder if that wasn't a scumslip from either of them...?

24:02:19:41

[Seraphim]

In the town PM, it makes clear that this is an open set-up.

In the scum PM, it does not.

24:01:32:05

[Seraphim]

That was a pleasant surprise. DTF is almost definitely not scum based on interactions off the top of my head. With a confirmed scumbag, looks like a more in-depth read in iso is in order.

Also:

llamaeatataco (7): ThAdmiral, Kreriov, JamesBond, Konowa, Seraphim, don_johnson, Santos

Betting there's more than a few scum on this wagon. Judging by the speed of it, llama got bussed hard by at least one of his scum mates.

23:22:34:53

[Seraphim]

Interesting points in the llama reread:

His fourth post...he says that it looks like DTF is trying to be scumbuddies with him. Highly unlikely that DTF is scum based on his ridiculous accusations.

His sixth post...he tries to vote Santos and OP. Unfortunately, I don't think this reveals anything about either alignment as he was just voting lurkers besides Data.

His eighth post...he defends himself against Santos. I still think Santos is town and going after him is a waste of time.

That's about it. I also noticed that llama did not go after Datadanne and in fact never mentioned him at all. Does anyone else find this suspect?
Most thoughts later, I want to reread the entire game and look for interactions with llama.

23:22:28:45

[Seraphim]

SABERWOLF!

Get sober and actually post a case on me!

Then we can talk.

23:17:22:44

[Seraphim]

Hmmm. DJ needs to be read in isolation as I'm getting a heavy gut reading of scum.

In the meantime, I don't like the Santos wagon in the slightest. I really don't think he's scum. The only thing resembling a case I have seen is Krer talking about a connection between Santos and llama. If this is the supposed "distancing" that has been discussed earlier, this is seriously jumping at shadows.

I want to see an actual case on Santos.

[Seraphim]

My vote is on the sidelines because I'm not sure who to vote yet.

Vote: saberwolf

I'm fairly confident with this vote. saberwolf replaced a scummy scumbag and has not helped. There is no analysis, he's been active lurking.

I seriously don't see any sort of case on Santos. It's a terrible wagon. Unless you guys have a real case beyond "Well, uh, llama distanced him!!1!" then I suggest you find better places for your votes.

[Seraphim]

Seraphim attempting to stop the Santos wagon, which, if I recall correctly, is also someone he never voted for in D1. Further, Llama's double vote here where he named Santos as his second vote, regardless of whether it counts, seems more now like a scum distancing tool. I'm reading it the same as when you vote one place and FoS your partner.

I think llama was seriously just trying to vote both of them in order to look pro-town and lynch lurkers.

[Seraphim]

I am almost completely convinced saberwolf is scum now.

I still don't see the case on Santos. Could someone please tell me why we are bandwagoning him?

[Seraphim]

Also, saberwolf, do you think both of Konowa and myself are scum or just one of us?

[Seraphim]

Well, whatever then.

*waits for the flip*

[Seraphim]

Wow. I did not see that one coming.

Hmm.

Shit, I'm going to get lynched, aren't I?

[Seraphim]

I think there might be a good chance of ThAdmiral being scum simply on the basis on that he's not posting as much as he usually does. That's gut unfortunately and there's no real basis behind it.

I think that there is still a chance that Konowa is scum but it is much less likely given how hard he pushed Santos's lynch.

I really need to reread the game because I did not expect Santos to flip scum at all. I thought I had him pinned as town.

[Seraphim]

I think I'm just awful at Mafia, honestly.

[Seraphim]

Maybe BECAUSE YOU'RE SCUM?!?!?!

No, just kidding.

Unvote

I'll reread the game tomorrow. Don't lynch me in the meantime, please.

[Seraphim]

...

Vote: JamesBond

[Seraphim]

dothefandango is quite literally the one person I am quite sure is not scum based on what we know. Not to mention your logic is crap...simply because players are not voting for scum does not mean they are scum themselves.

It may just be terrible logic or it may be you scrambling because half of your scum team is dead.

[Seraphim]

One more thing before I leave:

That would be pretty smart but since they cannot talk

Scum have a QT in which they can communicate throughout the game. Day-talk is pretty standard for nightless.

When did I say this?

[Seraphim]

Yeah, the scum can't talk.

BTW, after deep rereading, I think DJ is most likely to be the next scum.

After Santos's flip, I reread Konowa and now believe it is highly unlikely that he is scum. Same thing with saberwolf.

DTF has about the same chance of being scum as Konowa for the reason that both llama and Santos tried to push a DTF lynch. Llama made some statements that make it highly unlikely that DTF is scum.

Your logic is crap, no offense to you, because scum often bus especially towards the end of a wagon when it looks inevitable. If someone misses two wagons, it's because they aren't paying attention. DTF has pretty much been active-lurking which we may end up lynching him for anyway.

OP doesn't seem like scum.

Unvote
Vote: DJ

Artem knows where it's at. DJ has nearly always been last(hammering and L-1 vote) for both scum lynches. This is prime bussing location. Not to mention that DJ seems incredibly nervous. Look back in iso to see what I mean.

[Seraphim]

I didn't slip. I checked the rules. I checked out the scum role PM. After planning, they can't talk any more. And they weren't just trying to bus past D1 either. I don't think that DTF is scum based on his connections with scum.

BUT WAIT.

This isn't completely true ladies and gentlemen!

I have reconsidered. He was part of the OP wagon after making a 180 on him once it was confirmed he was a "lurker". Very odd. I think that the last scum reside in the following four players:

dothefandango
don_johnson
saberwolf
JamesBond

The others I find unlikely to be scum.

Mod: Could we get a prod on ThAdmiral and dothefandango please?

DJ, it's not funny at all. I just found out that scum connections make it highly unlikely for my main suspect to be scum. I need to scumhunt so we finish this sucker up.

I find it EXTREMELY odd that you were the 6th vote both times on the scum wagons. You put llama at L-1 and you hammered Santos.

[Seraphim]

Never mind about DTF's prod. He has posted recently.

[Seraphim]

More don_johnson votes please.

@saberwolf

You are less likely to be scum but I still have a scum read on you(similar to DTF). DTF's and your play seem scummy but if you are scum, you were being bussed by Santos and llama. Which is possible. You could still be scum but not based off connections with flipped scum.

[Seraphim]

Unvote
Vote: Dothefandango

We've stalled out. Let's lynch some LURKERS!

[Seraphim]

I think my vote was the hammer.

[Seraphim]

More comments after the flip.

[Seraphim]

Vote: don_johnson

Hey, I defended someone and he flipped town!

I'm fairly sure the following people are town:
Konowa
saberwolf
Artem
Kreriov
Myself

The rest:
ThAdmiral
DJ
OP
JamesBond

I think that I have the strongest scum read on DJ. I have the weakest scum read on JB because frankly, he's not all that scummy. ThAdmiral needs to post more after he gets his new modem. OP has been active-lurking.

That's all.

[Seraphim]

*sigh*

Good luck town. I cannot see myself getting out of this one.

Unvote
Vote: Seraphim