Mini 857 Disney Movie Mafia 2 - The Classics (Roll Credits)

[Crazy]

Vote: semioldguy

for SINGLE-HANDEDLY LOSING THE GAME LAST TIME!!

(Nah, I'm kidding.)

[Crazy]

Crazy, why specify that you are kidding?

Because in case it wasn't obvious, I didn't want SOG to think that I was serious.

[Crazy]

This:

LOL, do be honest I didn't even see your vote until after I voted. But I usually vote for whoever stands out in the RVS.

Then this:

I did read some, but usually the RVS isn't meant to be taken seriously. Hence the term random votes.

So in order for Monkey to be town, we'd have to believe the following:

1. He usually votes for whatever stands out in the RVS, but this time he didn't, because apparently "it's not supposed to be taken seriously." Even though that's what he usually does! XD

2. He read only the very beginning of the RVS, but not enough to see Starbuck's vote. Yeah...

Unvote
Vote Monkey

(L-3)

[Crazy]

What he said to you? This?

Okay, this is just getting stupid. Let me know when you guys want to move on.

Err, no, that's not what I was referring to at all. After you've given Monkey a chance to elaborate, I'd much like you to explain how what I said has any relation to

that

quote.

[Crazy]

Also, Crazy's first point against Monkey makes no sense whatsoever. I can't fathom what he's trying to say with that sentence.

Monkey said that he usually votes for whatever stands out in the RVS. This time he didn't read the RVS for some reason, or only read "some" of it.

But anyway, Kmd's "LIAR" thing is enough to lynch him right there.

[Crazy]

But anyway, Kmd's "LIAR" thing is enough to lynch him right there.

The second of those statments was clearly sarcastic.

Yeah, you're right. Nevermind.

[Crazy]

What discussion did it generate? Whether or not Gorrad is scummy? Why would Gorradtown want us to discuss that?

I hate when people use logic like that. When they do, I turn it back:

What motivation does Gorrad-scum have for not randomvoting?

[Crazy]

What motivation does Gorrad-scum have for not randomvoting?

He doesn't connect himself to anyone or bring attention to his vote.

Lol, but by now everyone knows you get just as much attention, if not more, if you don't vote!

It wasn't much of a scum tactic a long time ago... under the current meta it's completely useless.

[Crazy]

Meh. True. Crazy seems to think that the only way scum are caught is if they do something that would benefit them though.

Not exactly. I just don't like the argument of "This makes no sense as town, so he must be scum."

[Crazy]

Wow, this is so stupid. Monkey has to be scum. Not on the emotional appeals, but refusing to play the game means either scum or horrible town. And I think Monkey is too experienced of a player to do this as town.

[Crazy]

You guys are being ridiculous. Could he handle it better then he is ? Yes. Is his reaction completely understandable anyway? Yes.

For a newbie, maybe. But for someone who's been around for almost a year and has more game posts than you?

[Crazy]

Eh... I gotta look at this game later.

[Crazy]

I apologise for my lack of activity the past few days. I've been somewhat busy. I'll probably get caught up tonight.

I see Monkey's still the leading wagon, so I'm pretty happy.

[Crazy]

Okay, I read the thread.

I still think Monkey is scummy for what I said earlier about the RVS. And yes, I do find it unlikely that Monkey would read some of the RVS but not enough to see Starbuck's vote. This is mainly because Starbuck's vote was right after Kmd's first post, and I can't imagine that anyone wouldn't focus on Kmd's post, since he was one that was actually saying stuff during the RVS.

The other main point against him is his protest. At least he stopped it, though; if he didn't I'd expect him to be an obv-lynch.

And I don't really like his vote jumping to SOG and Brandi. Both of those votes seemed for rather petty reasons.

I have to admit, though, that Starbuck's case on him is horrible. She just keeps citing his "overreaction" and his "appeals to emotion," neither of those being valid scum-tells.

(And Starbuck, you are being way more condescending than Monkey is.)

@chamber - What's the purpose of your fuzzylightning vote?

[Crazy]

I don't think chamber is scum.

I find Starbuck's and SC's cases on him horrible. They mainly just add up to "He's defending Monkey."

And SC's post right before mine is one of the biggest strawmans I've ever seen.

[Crazy]

Example: Self voting is a scum tell.
Player A always self votes.
Self voting is STILL a scumtell.
The end.

People who play like scum on purpose and to try to say "oh it's how I play, so you can't point fingers at me!" are retarded and I have no sympathy for them~ These types of people always hurt the town.

Being anti-town even when you're always anti-town is anti-town. But being anti-town when you're always anti-town is not scummy; it's a null-tell.

Our job is not to discourage anti-town play; it's to catch scum.

I don't give a darn about your RVS actions, but as for leaving an argument for it being crap, that's not how you handle such a situation. You explain why it is crap. If you're good at doing that, then the tide changes in your favor. BUT NO. You had to go cry in a corner. So that bit, yes, makes you scum.

I really don't like stuff like this, either. SC is basically saying, "This is what you should have done. You didn't do it. Thus, you are scum."

I do think Monkey is scummy in some ways, true. I just don't care for the ways that SC and Starbuck are going about it.

[Crazy]

You're overgeneralizing my attack. There ARE things that are scummy if you don't do them. I think you're also focusing on the wrong part of my statement. That he got up and left is scummier to me than if he had merely ignored it.

I wasn't looking at your whole attack, just that post, really. I gotta look more into what you've said before.

[Crazy]

Right now I think the towniest player is Starbuck with her very sensible scumhunting, and semioldguy is a good candidate for second place.

Starbuck's scum-hunting isn't even remotely sensible. My scumdar screams at her nearly as much as it screams at Monkey.

I'll be back later; I got homework to do.

[Crazy]

Right now I think the towniest player is Starbuck with her very sensible scumhunting, and semioldguy is a good candidate for second place.

Starbuck's scum-hunting isn't even remotely sensible. My scumdar screams at her nearly as much as it screams at Monkey.

I'll be back later; I got homework to do.

What's not sensible about my scumhunting?

You're attacking Monkey for his over-reaction and his appeal to emotion, mainly, which are two of the worst "scum-tells" ever.

You also attack chamber merely for depending Monkey, although isn't it plausible he just disagrees with you?

[Crazy]

Have you been following the game at all to see the other reasons why I haven't moved my vote from Monkey? It's quite apparent that you have not.

I'm a little behind, and for the past day or two I've only been answering questions that have been asked of me.

And even if you added reasons later on, that still would be mostly irrelevant, since your original case on Monkey was stuffed full of crap.

[Crazy]

And about chamber defending Monkey, I can't see what's so wrong with that. I defend people all the time in my games if I don't like the case.

And there are quite a few things to not like about the Monkey case. There are some things I like, but those are mostly my own reasons, and not why you find him so scummy.

[Crazy]

Well, you might wanna go back and re-read because my original vote on Monkey was for a reaction, which he gave in abundance. His continued actions, reactions, and overall scumminess since then have given me reason to not move my vote from him.

You should really re-read before you start throwing around baseless accusations.

Yah, "reactions." That's what I was talking about when I said your case was full of crap. Reactions don't mean anything; townies over-react all the time. More than scum, probably.

[Crazy]

I'm not saying that you have to like my case on Monkey. You keep saying over and over again that it's full of crap, but you have not stated why it is or what part of it is, only that it's crap.

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong. The main proponents to your Monkey case are the following:

1. He overreacted to your original vote on him, and then proceeded to use appeals to emotion.

2. He threatened to stop posting any content until the wagon on himself had dissipated.

I strongly believe that #1 is not a scum-tell. Townies over-react all the time, really.

Also, if all you were doing was fishing for a reaction, then how can you blame Monkey for REACTING and saying that your vote had no justification?

#2 is a stronger point, and if he pursued that philosophy then I'd be happy to lynch him. But he didn't pursue that, so I don't see the problem.

So now that I repeat myself again, you FINALLY realize why you think my case is crap? I really don't buy it.

I always said your case was full of crap.

[Crazy]

And yeah, I just read you and SC in isolation before that last post. No great case that I can see.

[Crazy]

Also, I just reread you in iso, and I seriously want a full case, in your words, against monkey.

If you're talking to me, look at my iso #13.

He DID PURSUE THAT. I wish you would re-read so you would see this!

Crazy, he didn't just stop posting. He left the game, and was posting in his other games and not posting in our thread. We finally got to the 72 hour prod rule, and we asked him either to participate or be replaced.

He did come back after he was prodded, though.

[Crazy]

So now that I repeat myself again, you FINALLY realize why you think my case is crap? I really don't buy it.

I always said your case was full of crap.

This is true, but you never provided reasons until now.

*shrug* Okay, well now you know.

[Crazy]

But he shouldn't have had to be prodded. He was being active in his other games, but not this one. That's called active lurking.

Actually, active lurking refers to posting regularly but not contributing much useful information.

But anyway, yeah, you're right, he shouldn't have had to be prodded. But after 3 days, the prod must have made him come to his senses because then he started posting regularly again.

Which means his leaving was just a hissy fit due to frustration, because he later realized it wasn't a very good idea. I can forgive an emotional outburst for a little while. Only if he had continually not posted indefinitely (or for a significant time period, at least), then that would show that it was more than a hissy fit, and it would be scummy.

[Crazy]

Whether overreacting is a scumtell I'll leave up to debate, but appealing to ___(fill in the blank)___, as far as I am aware, has never been pro-town. You're basically saying "But I'm this!" or "But this is going on!" to get people to listen to you. People will listen to scumhunting and common sense.

Yeah, appeal to emotion isn't a good thing, but it's not a scum-tell.

Uhh... Starbuck has accused chamber of white knighting MonkeyMan576, which is more than merely defending him—he's defending him FOR him.

Fair enough.

FoS: Crazy for this post being tantamount to chainsaw defending MonkeyMan576.

I'm voting Monkey. In my mind, they're about equal scumminess at this point. They're probably not

both

scum (unless if one's from another faction, or something), but I'm pretty sure one of them is. I agree with Starbuck that Monkey is scummy; I just don't agree on the reasons that he's scummy. Personally, I find Monkey's votes on Brandi and SOG scummier than anything Starbuck mentioned about him.

And I realized you said "tantamount," but I could pin the chainsaw defense thing on you regarding Starbuck.

[Crazy]

What about Starbuck's reasoning do you disagree with?

"Over-reaction" and "emotional appeals." See post #308 for more details.

[Crazy]

In that case,

Unvote
Vote: Starbuck

What does the "conditional" part mean, Monkey?

[Crazy]

Read below my RC.

Oh, okay. That went past me.

Does that mean Vanilla Townie or any pro-town person?

[Crazy]

Vote: Chamber

: With this claim from Monkey, and his constant defending of Monkey, I see this as possible buddying.

Buddying?

To me it seemed that chamber was more interested in attacking Starbuck/SOG/you rather than defending Monkey. Notice how he kept asking for a case on Monkey?

What in particular made you think it was buddying of all things?

[Crazy]

Crazy, how did you manage to miss the obvious there?

Regards,
Jazz

I guess my mind just didn't click, lol. Why does that matter?

[Crazy]

Despite the whole "Remy is not a weak tracker" thing from last game, I still want some flavor info from Monkey.

Monkey, why is Peter Pan a watcher?
Why is Peter Pan a conditional watcher rather than just a regular watcher?

[Crazy]

Pixar is owned by Disney and there were Pixar characters in the first game, and Toy Story is most definitely a "classic." It came out in 1995, which was in a time period that Disney was still making its own traditionally-animated classics.

Besides that, if Starbuck isn't town, that's the most brilliant fake-claim I've ever heard. Buzz Lightyear is the definition of a Vanilla Townie.

Unvote

I think I've given enough role info at this point. It should be rather obvious why he's a watcher, although not so obvious why he's a conditional watcher.

That's the scummiest thing you've said the whole game. You've claimed. Keeping information back now is useless. Besides, it will help me discern whether you're fake-claiming.

[Crazy]

Between Starbuck's fakeclaim and me recently seeing Toy Story & Toy Story 2 in 3D, I can't get this scene out of my head:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy-1xI1nbao

[Crazy]

Between Starbuck's

fake

claim

Lolz. No, I'm not scum with Starbuck. XD

[Crazy]

One post as a response to Starbuck's big post. One post for everybody else.

Starbuck's post:

So why is this an absolute?

He could easily be bluffing.

If I wanted to get you lynched, I could do so without making myself look like scum with you.

I don't think you're scum. I stand by that.

Quoted for truth. How else does Crazy know that Starbuck's claim is fake?

I suppose I have to explain my side. I merely interchanged the words "claimed" and "fakeclaimed."

That shouldn't be hard to believe, but for the life of me I can't help you about Starbuck's thing; that's crazy!

It will give us info, regardless of what you flip. Even if you flip Townie, I think Crazy's post could still be odd.

He tries to justify Monkey leaving in this post by saying that Monkey came back after he was prodded. My issue with all of this is that Monkey shouldn't have left the game in the first place and should not have needed to be prodded when he was being active elsewhere on the site. He admits that I'm right about this via this post, but then says he can forgive Monkey's outburst when originally (look at the above quote), he didn't feel that way.

When Monkey first posted that, I didn't think he'd come back. Like I said, if Monkey did leave permanently, he would have been an obvious lynch as far as I was concerned.

I really don't like this because Crazy is most definitely being anti-town, and it seems like he's using the reasoning as an excuse to be anti-town.

I don't recall being anti-town. I believe the post was in reference to Gorrad. Being anti-town is not a good thing, but no, it's not scummy by itself.

Another thing that bothers me about Crazy is that he does not see anything wrong with how Chamber has been answering for Monkey and white-knighting him. I think it was StrangerCoug that put it best. Chamber has been defending Monkey for Monkey instead of Monkey defending himself.

That's probably true, but I don't find that as a big issue unless if Monkey flips scum. And lynching Chamber because you think Monkey is scum is stupid.

I'm also bothered by the fact that he kept calls my case crap via this post, and doesn't seem to remember why it's crap until I make mention of what my case on Monkey was via this post.

Actually, I first said what I didn't like about your Monkey case in Post #298, which was before both of the 2 posts you cited.

You then said that there were other reasons... and I said I didn't know about those. When I looked back, I discovered that there were no reasons that I didn't know about already.

After Monkey claims, Crazy immediately unvotes Monkey and votes me. He then immediately unvotes me after I claim. Let's take a look at this post

Yup. I'm not lynching a claimed watcher Day 1. And I'm not lynching someone with a claim as good as yours.

So if he thinks I'm fakeclaiming, why isn't he voting for me?

BECAUSE I DO NOT THINK YOU ARE FAKECLAIMING! Notice I corrected myself in the following pots!

[Crazy]

Lol, it looks like I can't even copy & paste correctly.

Everyone else:

I think you just slipped there, Crazy.

OMG!!!!!!!

Anybody else get the incredible irony in that statement. If I didn't know I was town, I'd seriously think me & Starbuck were scum together just from that!

I can't blame this wagon, seriously.

Crazy, why haven't you learned about flavor arguments yet? I know that Llama as a player HATES flavor arguments, so I doubt he'd make it that easy for us. Hell, I'll put up an argument opposing yours just to show that it's possible. Buzz Lightyear comes in as a new toy and nobody likes him right away. He's initially a bit of an antagonist (spelling?), so why not make him scum? It could go either way.

You didn't complain about that when I used a flavor argument to defend your lynch in the first game.

Besides, this isn't about determining alignment from flavor; it's about determing

role

. In the last game, about everyone (maybe not Panzer) had a perfectly fitting flavor for their role.

Mod: May I please be replaced in this game, I haven't been able to get a feel for the game with what's gone on, I apologize if I have wasted people's time

Aww, it was just getting really interesting, and I was just about to peg you as scum. Crap.

It will give us info, regardless of what you flip. Even if you flip Townie, I think Crazy's post could still be odd.

"Could still be odd." Gotta love phrasing like that. It might be, but it might not be, but if it is, it's only "odd."

If you think it's scummy, say it's scummy! And tell me

why

it's scummy, please.

So why is this an absolute?

He could easily be bluffing.

If I wanted to get you lynched, I could do so without making myself look like scum with you.

I don't think you're scum. I stand by that.

Quoted for truth. How else does Crazy know that Starbuck's claim is fake?

I suppose I have to explain my side. I merely interchanged the words "claimed" and "fakeclaimed."

That shouldn't be hard to believe, but for the life of me I can't help you about Starbuck's thing; that's crazy!

It will give us info, regardless of what you flip. Even if you flip Townie, I think Crazy's post could still be odd.

Tell me what "odd" means, please.

If you think it's scummy, say it's scummy, and say why it's scummy. "Odd" is a wussy word that is only used by scum and townies with no backbone.



*****

In conclusion, me saying "fakeclaim" instead of "claim" was just a slip of the tongue, and not a slip because I'm scum.

Anyway, if Starbuck is lynched, which seems likely, I'm about 95% sure that he'll flip town. If he does, then that doesn't reflect on me at all. If on a rare chance he does flip scum, then I'm sure I'm next, but at least that's not the end of the world.

And flavor arguments rock.

[Crazy]

Starbuck is totally town but I don't know how I can argue that since everyone seems to have some aversion to flavor arguments.

[Crazy]

I was self-voting because it was pretty obvious the town wasn't going to move anywhere, and I was going to end the day since the town wasn't doing so.

This is not pro-town. Please do not do this ever.

I understand the frustration, but that is never what you should do.

[Crazy]

It was a good claim? How hard is it to claim vanilla? *insert disney character here*, I'm a Vanilla Townie. How is it a good claim?

Buzz Lightyear thinks he's this great, awesome, Space Ranger, but in reality he's just a toy.

Hence, he has no real ability. Ta-da.

And yeah, if someone came in and claimed "Hercules - Vanilla Townie," then no, I wouldn't say that was a good claim.

If anything, I would think Buzz would NOT be a candidate for a vanilla.

That just shows that the mod is being smart and goes for something that isn't your immediate hunch, but makes sense once you think about it.

I complained that flavor was even being used as a reason for anything. Seriously, I was lynched for not knowing was a Bolt was.

I personally thought it was odd that you'd never heard of Bolt, and thought that you might have been hiding the fact that you could make up a good fakeclaim. But in the end, I didn't go along with that.

But seriously, look at all the roles from the last game. They are AWESOME!

Saying Starbuck is scum is saying that she...

1. Claimed Vanilla as scum, which is a very risky gambit.
2. Claimed perfectly matching flavor and ability.

No offense intended, but I think that might be giving her a little too much credit.

[Crazy]

Didn't I just tell Crazy it's too early to speculate on what name could be what role? We have absolutely nothing solid.

Have you looked at the roles from the last game, dude?

Bolt - Vanilla Townie
-Bolt is a TV superhero that believes he has powers but really doesn't.

Violet - Cop
-Violet has the power to turn invisible, which would make a very good cop.

Kenai - Jailkeeper
-A man that turned into a bear and who ends up taking care of a young bear cub.

Kronk - Vanilla Townie
-He appears strong, but he's pretty dumb, so he doesn't end up helping do anything in the film.

Diego - Vigilante
-Diego is totally a rebel, all the way.

Lightning McQueen - Bus Driver
-He is a car, and he drives pretty fast. XD

Stitch - Traitor
-He appears as a dog to Lilo, but all he really likes to do is cause destruction.

Remy - Weak Tracker
-Still don't quite get this, although Remy

is

a rat.

RJ - Theif
-One of the most obvious; he's a raccoon that's stealing a collection of food to ward off a hungry bear.

Po - Vanilla Townie
-Po is very incapable compared to the rest of the martial arts characters.

Dory - Vanilla Townie
-Has short-term memory loss and she never really initiated anything by herself.

Morph - Some kind of redirector or something
-I'm actually not familiar with Treasure Planet, but the character and role both involves morphing.

[Crazy]

^That's awesome.

Unfortunately, I can't beat you there.

[Crazy]

I agree that fuzzylightning was bad; I wish he had stayed long enough to answer my question.

I'll give Neopi time to respond more in-depthly first, though.

[Crazy]

And all of this information helps me in this particular game how? I find it easier and more effective to scumhunt than to concentrate on claims and potentially get caught in a mod-WIFOM game. If you want to give me a lesson on Good Claims and Bad Claims 101, you can, but I'd rather it be in Mafia Discussion, and it's probably safest to do that when the game is over.

Scum-hunting is used mainly to determine who we want to claim. The claim will result in a lynch (if the claim sucks), a refusal to lynch (if the claim is good), or more scum-hunting (if it's neither). If we're going to pick "more scum-hunting" every time, regardless of what the claim is, then there's really no point in claiming.

Personally, I think Starbuck's claim is good. It matches the ability nicely in a somewhat unexpected way, which is what you'd expect from a good role PM. And it matches the generality of the role PMs of the last game.

[Crazy]

Personally, I think Starbuck's claim is good. It matches the ability nicely in a somewhat unexpected way, which is what you'd expect from a good role PM. And it matches the generality of the role PMs of the last game.

What ability?

Vanilla.

[Crazy]

@Neopi - Why didn't you mention mine and Starbuck's so-called "scumslips?" That appears to be the biggest reason that most other people are voting Starbuck. What do you think of it?

[Crazy]

Ugh, I'd swear SC and Starbuck were scum together if I didn't know better.

(And I never FoSed Gorrad, btw.)

[Crazy]

People are too quick to vote Neopi. Neopi is probably town with scum on the wagon.

I actually have the same hunch; I don't see much wrong with Neopi; the only thing that bothered me was when fuzzylightning said that chamber was probably scum buddying up to Monkey.

[Crazy]

And yeah, all my suspects on my list are gone right now; I need to look at this game some more.

[Crazy]

Yeah, I don't see any reason why "Toy Story" isn't a classic.

And Kmd, you were so quick to dismiss all flavor arguments earlier; why would you allow this one?

FoS

[Crazy]

You're making quite a big deal out of nothing, Starbuck. He just wanted to see if your claim was isolated from the rest.

If you were the only person that claimed to be someone from a movie after 1980, then it would be pretty obvious that you were fake-claiming.

[Crazy]

And Monkey, can you just explain why Peter Pan is a "conditional" watcher?

[Crazy]

I can see the argument. Yeah, it's probably a bad idea to go in that direction, but really. Does Toy Story fit with the title of "Disney Classic"? I don't think it does.

Well, I think it does, but that's not the point here. I like flavor arguments, and you don't.

Why do you like flavor arguments in this case?

I'm also surprised you'd still support that Toy Story doesn't fit considering your character is after 1980...

[Crazy]

I should add that I thought the kill could have happened because Kmd4390 was talking too much about his role. I'm not invalidating it as the reasoning behind it, but as I said above we know he was not modkilled for that.

I don't understand your logic here. It's like your saying:

A. Kmd talked about his role.
B. Kmd was killed.

Thus, A caused B? How? It sounds like you're making up some random reason just so people don't talk about their roles.

[Crazy]

the mod kill thing seems suspicious.....


possibly the mod dosent like that?

ocrrection very likely

It wasn't a modkill. The mod edited SC's post and said it wasn't.

[Crazy]

I'm not saying that A definitively caused B. I'm saying that A could have caused B, but we now know regardless that it can't have been because of the mod's doing.

I still don't get what you're saying. How could someone saying their movie was post-1980 and classic-like possibly cause someone to kill them.

[Crazy]

Right below that post Crazy asks what conditional means, but Monkey says it right there in his claim. So I believe he did elaborate, so I can see his frustration when he has already elaborated and people are asking him to do so still.

Yeah, I missed that. But I'm not asking that now; I'm asking what in his flavor makes him a

conditional

watcher.

Monkey, you've already claimed your role; you have nothing to benefit scum by explaining the flavor in it.

If you don't explain now, expect me to vote you the first time we lynch a townie.

As for now, I'd much rather lynch Neopi than Starbuck, but I want to see if anybody else catches my eye.

[Crazy]

The mod confirmed by editing my last post is that Kmd4390 did not get modkilled and I don't see him as enough of a bastard mod to include a day SK, so I think we have a day vig somewhere.

o_0 What a weird thing to say. Why is a day SK bastardly? You said you didn't want a mod-WIFOM game, but I don't see why a day SK is bastardly at all.

[Crazy]

He is scum because he won't explain his flavor? He may not even know his flavor.

Yes. And I'm sure everybody has flavor. And even if he didn't, he should say that he doesn't.

My reasoning is that refusing to claim flavor is what "Peter Pan - Random Scum Role" that just made up the "Conditional Watcher thing" would do.

[Crazy]

Yes I have flavor. I just don't want to give any more info unless there is justification for it. I've already claimed with my role and power.

Your justification is to prevent a mislynch of yourself. And because it's harder to do if you're scum that's fake-claiming.

The day SK being bastardly is basically my perception of things in general. Perhaps I pre-inned for what, by my definition, is a bastard game without knowing it. I have no problem with people disagreeing with me here; people have differing definitions of bastard modding (e.g. I don't consider a bomb to be a bastard role unless it's a normal).

Well, it sounded to me like you were scum distancing himself from the kill (that and the modkill comment). To me, the kill seems more likely to come from anti-town (probably SK.) Partially because of the flavor (eraser shavings?) and partially because I wouldn't expect a dayvig's kill to extend the deadline.

[Crazy]

Well, if players don't want to think for themselves to figure out my flavor or do research, then that's their problem, not mine. Voting on someone because you think they are scummy is one thing, voting on someone because you are lazy is something else.

I think it's scummy that you don't reveal flavor. And even if I did research and thought up a reason, it wouldn't matter because it wouldn't be coming from you. And if town can do research and find out, then scum could to so you're not withholding anything from the scum by keeping quite.

Does anybody here besides Monkey honestly think that revealing flavor would help scum to any significant degree?

[Crazy]

Vote: Monkey

I've had enough.

[Crazy]

Why? You've clearly been in the center of far too much suspicion to be a viable NK target. All scum has to do, assuming you're telling the truth, is put focus on another townie and you're rendered harmless!

Seriously. No sane scum would be putting pressure on you.

That's a lot of WIFOM.

Actually, it isn't. I'm sure the scum have bigger threats than a watcher that might not even get to watch that, in addition, appears scummy to a lot of people.

Your flavor makes sense. Withholding it for that long does not.

[Crazy]

Your flavor makes sense. Withholding it for that long does not.

This.

ALthough I agree with this statement, I don't agree with the conclusion that it doesn't make sense in a scummy way. It just doesn't make sense period.

Unless if he needed time to come up with something that was convincing.

[Crazy]

Chamber has a point about Monkey.

Unvote
Vote Neopi

Better than any alternative I can see at this point.

[Crazy]

LAL is the worst policy ever.

It's more the timing of the lurking.

[Crazy]

Yikes.

By "combined watcher/tracker," do you mean that you can do either or that you do both simultaneously?

Like Chamber asked, how does the Tramp distract you?

Why (flavor wise) can the Tramp only distract you after Day 2?

***

Personally, I'd like a Tramp-claim, since it seems like it's another player, but other people need to input on this.

[Crazy]

The reason I want the Tramp to claim is that Neopi pointed out that he's unconfirmed.

So if there is a Tramp, he's not confirmed town as soon as he claims. So it's not like scum can just kill him right away and kill a confirmed town.

Or, as my hunch is, Neopi is being over-creative here and is just completely lying, in which case there is no Tramp. And if everyone claimed not-Tramp, then it would be obvious that Neopi was scum. Or possibly, one of Neopi's scum-partners would be forced to claim Tramp.

[Crazy]

For how long it took him to actually claim his flavor, I think it's a good possibility.

Despite my earlier argument, Chamber's convinced me here. It is hard to believe that someone would not come up with their role and flavor together.

[Crazy]

2) Like Curious George in Weather Mafia 1, 'Tramp' is NOT a character, but is in fact an entirely different game mechanic. (In Weather Mafia, The Man in the Big Yellow Hat could investigate one person a night to try and find Curious George. It was assumed that George was a person, but as it turned out George stayed with whoever sent in a kill that night.)

Branching out from this theory, Neopi, does your role PM explicitly say that Tramp is a player in the game?

[Crazy]

no it does not

Answer all the other questions that people have asked you, please.

[Crazy]

How does the tramp distract you?

Why (flavor wise) can the Tramp only distract you after Day 2?

[Crazy]

This is why I really don't like going into the whole flavor debate because it detracts from hunting scum. Now people are just looking for well who's flavor makes the least sense.

go play normals.

Unvote: Neopi

and

vote: chamber

just for this. Why are you essentially telling Starbuck to shut up?

He meant that analyzing flavor is an integral part of Themed games, take it easy.

[Crazy]

To quote Starbuck:

Wow,

Monkey

StrangerCoug. You seem to be getting worked up over something so small.

Honestly, that was a very sneaky way to get off of the Neopi wagon and back onto the chamber wagon.

[Crazy]

Neopi and Monkey are my #1 and 2 (Neopi first), so I'm satisfied with either of their lynch. Starbuck is in my bottom 2 or 3. True, she is scummy, but her claim is awesome.

Monkey's claim works as well, though not that innovative or hard to come up with. Especially since he says he's watched a lot of Disney. And I still find him scummy for that RVS stuff.

Neopi's claim is crap. And I didn't like fuzzlightning's statement that chamber was "buddying up" to Monkey.

[Crazy]

Well, okay.

Now I need to figure out who to vote for.

[Crazy]

Considering Neopi flipped scum, I'm finding SC's switch from Neopi to chamber to Monkey very scummy.

Unvote
Vote StrangerCoug

@Gorrad, why do you think Yank is scummier than Jazz?

[Crazy]

Is that important, Crazy? Do you disagree?

Not drastically important. I just wanted to see why you thought that way.

[Crazy]

Yeah, that is a bit disappointing, but I don't think it matters too much, because it would just be a lot of WIFOM.

[Crazy]

Considering Neopi flipped scum, I'm finding SC's switch from Neopi to chamber to Monkey very scummy.

Unvote
Vote StrangerCoug

Going from Neopi to chamber I regret doing as I ended up engaging myself in an exercise in futility, but it's a tad weird to me that you mention going my going off chamber to vote MonkeyMan576. For me to stay on chamber and nobody else to switch would have resulted in a no lynch. And yes, MonkeyMan576 was suspicious. So was Neopi, but I am not a double voter.

Well, a switch from a scum wagon to a town wagon always is scummy, but having chamber as a median point makes it more suspicious to me because it makes it look less obvious.

[Crazy]

If Gorrad doesn't want to same something, I'm not going to make him.

And I'm a little lazy, too.

Still, I have to think SC is scum for getting of the Neopi wagon for such a ridiculous reason.

[Crazy]

I'll check the thread later.

[Crazy]

Brandi, who are you suspicious of?

SC/Gorrad/anyone else on the Starbuck wagon - What happened to me and Starbuck obviously being scum together? Obviously I never approved of the wagon, but I'm curious to why it dissipated.

[Crazy]

Crazy, correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that your only reason for thinking Starbuck is town is that she claimed Buzz Lightyear as her role. Have you thought about that further since Neopi flipped scum with the role of Lady from Lady & the Tramp? I mean, it seems to me that you're basing your entire read on Starbuck on the fact that she claimed Buzz Lightyear, but by that reasoning, Lady from Lady & the Tramp should also have been a vanilla role, and we now know that it was not.

That is why I think Starbuck is town.

If Neopi had claimed vanilla, I probably wouldn't have lynched him but I would have thought the claim was merely "okay." However, a Buzz-vanilla-claim is exceptional.

[Crazy]

Brandi, who are you suspicious of?

SC/Gorrad/anyone else on the Starbuck wagon - What happened to me and Starbuck obviously being scum together? Obviously I never approved of the wagon, but I'm curious to why it dissipated.

Bigger fish to fry is why I personally stopped pursuing it, and right now Starbucks vs. Brandi reeks to me of a... what's a clean way to put it? Basically, I'm getting nothing useful out of it--they might as well be arguing with each other for the sake of arguing with each other.

You unvoted Starbuck with no revote.

You voted for Neopi about a day after that for his alleged lurking.

If you had "bigger fish to fry," why was your unvote off the Starbuck wagon not accompanied by a revote?

[Crazy]

This does not make sense to me. You seem to be basing your entire read on Starbuck solely on the fact that she claimed vanilla Buzz Lightyear because Buzz Lightyear is an obvious (to you) vanilla role. But Lady from Lady & the Tramp is an equally "obvious" vanilla role. I mean, come on, cute little dog with zero connotations that I can think of that could be viewed as potentially evil.

And yet, Lady was scum.

So, I am not following your train of thought here, and I do not understand why you think that claiming vanilla Buzz Lightyear is a "brilliant" claim, and I do not understand why you accept it at face value.

Regards,
Jazz

It has to do with the role, not with alignment. I agree that flavor cannot be used to discern alignment.

Buzz Lightyear is a great vanilla because he thinks he is this all-awesome space ranger but he's really just a toy.

Lady

could

work as a Vanilla, but that wouldn't be especially clever. And the role that Neopi claimed was too confusing to be believable.

[Crazy]

@all - these constant V/LAs are very annoying. Please do those that want to play this game a favor and either participate as you should or be replaced.

I don't think that's a big problem. Most people are V/LA from time-to-time.

I'll abstain from posting until everyone returns.

Um...

Why?

[Crazy]

I'll post tomorrow; I'm too sick right now.

[Crazy]

Yank, you still need to explain this:

I'll abstain from posting until everyone returns.

And my brief thoughts:

Starbuck is still likely town because of her claim.

I don't think Gorrad is scum. I'm thinking his "mystique" is more likely to come from town, actually. Think what you will (WIFOM, etc.), but I don't see scum motivation for acting that way.

I still find SC scummy for his interaction with the Neopi wagon.

I have a relatively null-leaning-town read on both SOG and Jazzmyn.

Yank's posts are unimpressive; I wouldn't be at all surprised if he was scum.

Brandi's only posts Day 2 have been to defend herself, which is quite scummy.

[Crazy]

I was prodded.

I still like my vote on SC. If it gets to a point where YankCane is the only plausible lynch (or I prefer it over the alternative), I will switch my vote.

If anyone has any questions directed to me, I'll answer them. Otherwise, I don't see anything at the moment that I can comment about unless if I go searching for stuff in past pages (which I'm too lazy to do right now.)

[Crazy]

Welcome, KK.

[Crazy]

if you are voting, a quick line or two why you are voting who you are voting...feel free to link me or repost your case.

I am voting for SC because he changed his vote from Neopi (scum) to chamber (on a horrible reason, too) to Monkey (town, which was a critical vote to get him lynched).

I realize this is not something that he can defend easily.

[Crazy]

373, crazy comes of Star’s wagon, reasons based on flavor…blah

Yes, flavor. I used flavor arguments in the first Disney Movie Mafia Game as town, so I know it can't count as a scum-tell.

And it's hard for me to imagine Starbuck claiming Buzz - Vanilla Townie as scum.

375, WTF?!?

Normal reaction.

WHY IS THERE NO CRAZY WAGON AT THIS POINT?

Because a wagon on myself would be based on the fact that I knew Starbuck was fakeclaiming. Which means wagoning me isn't any better than wagoning Starbuck (which is what did happen.)

you know better, how?

I know better because of me thinking Starbuck is obvtown because of his claim, and such.

SC, would have put him in the town category, but his vote ended MM, and I am shocked that he didn’t vote neopi after neo antics….interested to see if anyone asks him about this Day 2.

That's why I'm voting him.

[Crazy]

Jazz, this guy has been super scummy all of Day one. His votes and post are pragmatic and his defense of the Mafia GF is horrid.

What's wrong with pragmatic posting? Are you sure "pragmatic" is the word you mean?

Looking through his posts, I never saw him defend Neopi. I noticed he was on the fence to the Neopi wagon, which is scummy, though.

[Crazy]

Safe claim provided by LlamaFluff, the GM, perhaps?

(Just thinking out loud).

Regards,
Jazz

Since when is a safeclaim any more than a character name or something? "Buzz Lightyear" might be a safeclaim, but "Buzz Lightyear - Vanilla Townie" wouldn't be one.

[Crazy]

I'm pretty sure if Neopi had a safeclaim of some sort. He would have used it.

Well, he did use his character name. He just made up the ability.

[Crazy]

Since some mod decided to give the scum fake role PMs to use. I've gotten such a fake in my first mini theme.

Interesting. How likely do you consider that possibility?

Because I started believing the claim less and less and MonkeyMan576 was acting so scummy that I figured my best option was to reconsider what I had said. I lost Mini 825 for believing a jailkeeper fake claim to the point I barely questioned it. (I'd have to check the day the claim was, though.)

Was it more that you didn't believe his claim or that he was just so scummy?

[Crazy]

Yeah, I agree. I just wanted to see if SC would push for the possibility that he mentioned.

[Crazy]

Yeah, I agree. I just wanted to see if SC would push for the possibility that he mentioned.

I was merely answering a question you asked. I have more reason to believe you asked Jazzmyn specifically than me specifically, but that was a question any experienced player could answer. For me to seriously suggest that LlamaFluff changed the way he does scum PMs, I'd have to have gotten one in this game, and I haven't.

And that would be why I asked. =)

[Crazy]

Posting here later tonight.

[Crazy]

Eh, mostly wondering why Starbuck didn't answer the questions I asked her. The fact that she ignored my questions to her and instead focused on my Gorrad vote doesn't sit well with me.

The tone in these sentences is incredibly evasive. Why would you say "I wonder why Starbuck didn't answer my questions" instead of "Starbuck, please answer my questions?"

@Gorrad - You seem interested in dissecting the Monkey wagon, yet you were on it at one point. Why does that make sense?

Btw, I will still stand by that Monkey was very scummy. My post #114 that you're worried about; however, was incorrect, since Monkey did come back to the thread.

[Crazy]

And ckd, I must say it annoys me that you're automatically dismissing any flavor argument with a flick of the wrist. I've said it so many times - flavor can't help deduce alignment, but it can help deduce roles! And Buzz Lightyear - Vanilla Townie works excellently!

[Crazy]

WTF? That's pretty cheap and scummy of you Crazy. You quote my response in Post 1119 and dissect it as scummy without acknowledging what I was responding to.

In context, curiouskarmadog asked me what I was doing, what my plans were for this game. And I replied that I was waiting on Starbuck. I was not addressing Starbuck directly but I was hoping to lightly prod her (which worked, BTW).

I understand the context, but that doesn't seem to be a big deal for me. I suppose what bothers me more is that you never actually asked Starbuck to answer your questions. (For me, I tend towards this behavior when I'm scum, which is why I'm asking.)

You asked all your questions on November 22nd. If you actually did care, then why did it take you until November 25th to ask Starbuck why she hadn't answered your questions?

Starbuck even responded immediately to your vote on Gorrad - why didn't you ask her then?

[Crazy]

Why did the source of what bothers you change from my tone to the delay in prodding Starbuck to answer?

It's all kind of the same. It's either "You never asked her directly" or "You only asked her indirectly."

She stated that she was preparing for a memorial service. And she was so distracted that she missed an entire paragraph of my post. I figured it could wait.

Uhh, you mentioned her "focusing on the Gorrad vote" as scummy.

Eh, mostly wondering why Starbuck didn't answer the questions I asked her. The fact that

she ignored my questions to her and instead focused on my Gorrad vote doesn't sit well with me.

Did it only occur to you that that was scummy 3 days later, or did you just neglect to mention it for 3 days?

[Crazy]

When curiouskarmadog asked what my plan was for this game, I thought about it. I went back and looked at who answered the questions I asked and who didn't. That's when I noticed that Starbuck hadn't answered. That's when I prodded for an answer.

So my answer is that it only occurred to me 3 days later that her behavior was scummy.

But couldn't you understand that because she was preparing for a memorial at the time?

[Crazy]

I'm thinking massclaim, since we have at least 2 scum, and probably an SK out of 6 players.

Anyone disagree?

[Crazy]

First, what is an "innocent child" role is in this game? The mafia wiki tells me nothing useful.

I remember it was a possible role from C9++. If it means the same thing here as it does there, then it's a Vanilla Townie that can have the mod confirm him as town to everyone else once during the game.

And I agree with popcorn.

[Crazy]

I have nothing of importance to say. I consider both Starbuck and ckd to be about 90-95% town. Unless if one of the other 3 says something that makes them look really really town, then I'm not straying from that.

[Crazy]

I've said many times that I find Starbuck's claim to be really good flavor-wise (Buzz makes a good Vanilla Townie - if she claimed a power role it would be less believable), which means she is very likely to be town.

Let me make this clear - I'm not saying that I like the claim because Buzz is likely to be pro-town; I'm saying that I like the claim because Buzz is likely to be VANILLA.

I'm assuming that ckd isn't lying about his double-vote, because that would be ridiculous. Saying that, he is absolutely confirmed non-mafia, because if he was mafia, then he would have already won by now (Kill someone other than SC, then use the double-vote plus his partner's vote to win). Thus, ckd could only possibly be town or an SK that was given extra powers.

[Crazy]

I'm Genie from Aladdin, Vanilla Townie. Flavor is that I have awesome powers, but since I'm always either working for a master or trapped in my lamp, all that isn't much use.

KK can claim next, though I also want to hear the rest of Jazz's claim.

[Crazy]

Okay, I'm almost positive that Jazz is telling the truth about Gorrad giving her the medicine. Just look at Gorrad's posts from early Day 2 and it becomes obvious.

Also, Jazz's vanilla flavor is clever and pretty believable. Clearly one of Starbuck/Jazz is good at making up fake flavor, because unless if the eraser is town (which I doubt), then one of Starbuck/Jazz must be scum.

I think I'm probably going to want to lynch KK today, but that might change if his claim is really good, too.

[Crazy]

Unright

- Copper from Fox and the Hound - Tracker

Alt? Lol.

Okay, well first, there's no eraser-claim, so he/she must be anti-town (SK, probably.)

By process of elimination, I'm thinking SOG is most likely to be scum. Robin Hood as a Vanilla Townie seems rather "meh," since there's likely greater potential for that role. Also, SOG is the only one of the claimed vanillas to not give flavor reasons for

why

he has no night actions.

[Crazy]

Hi, I'm Walt Disney, Serial Erasist.

Obviously, that means I'm responsible for killing Kmd, Neopi, and ckd.

My flavor: I'm disappointed in all my animated creations, because they're killing and lynching each other and stuff. My goal is to eliminate all but one of them (with my eraser, of course). The one that remains at the end of the game with me will become the Disney mascot, and, interestingly, will win with me, regardless of their previous win condition.

To kill someone, I can send a PM to the mod once per day, but I have to also say what their character name was (like Belle, Lady, Simba, etc.) To make this easier, I was given a list of all the character names at the beginning of the game. This way, I was able to guess about Kmd's character, based on his statement that he thought the movie he was from was before 1980, but then he looked it up and it wasn't. From my list, I narrowed it down to either Beauty and the Beast or The Little Mermaid (chamber's role), and I guessed right.

I was sure that Neopi was scum simply because I knew there wasn't a "Tramp" in the game. Oh yeah, and his claim was a confusing mess, anyway. I killed him because I didn't want 3 scum all alive.

I actually wasn't thinking when I killed Neopi so quick, my mistake.

Originally, I had planned to claim vig later on, but based on later speculation that the eraser was an SK, I decided against that.

***

Now, on to the important part, I am un-NKable. And I make my kills during the day, which means Jazz's one-shot doctor protection is useless. The only way I can

lose

is if someone other than mafia is lynched today. If mafia isn't lynched today, then they will instantly win.

So it's in the town's best interest to lynch mafia, as well, since anyone still has a chance to be the last survivor with me and also win. To be fair, if it gets to that point, I will roll a die to determine my last kill.

If we lynch mafia today and the other mafia doesn't kill, I will not daykill anybody tomorrow.

So we need to find mafia. Can everyone please tell me who they think the 2 mafia are?

[Crazy]

Oh, and I killed ckd because he was confirmed town, and in addition, his double-vote could have cost me the game. And I think we can still lynch scum today.

[Crazy]

You're totally scum, SOG. You're arguing that the town should lynch me and let the mafia win. Come on.

Simply put:
If I am lynched today, mafia wins.
If a townie is lynched today, mafia wins.
If mafia is lynched today, I will win along with one other person.

Supporting any lynch that you don't think is mafia is going against your win condition, because if mafia isn't lynched, YOU WILL LOSE!

[Crazy]

No, that isn't what I'm arguing.

How do you propose I not go against my win condition? Regardless of what I do I cannot meet MY win condition. If I go for your supposed win condition, that is also going against my win condition.

If you are a threat to the town, which you claim to be since you don't share our win condition, then my win condition says that I can't win unless you are eliminated. Killing you and not killing you both go against my win condition.

Well, I just realized that the town can still win as a group... if mafia is lynched today, nobody dies tonight, mafia is lynched tomorrow, then I could be quicklynched on the final day before I'm able to erase anybody.

Yes, that is very unlikely to happen, but nevertheless, it makes your point moot, because even by your standards you should take a 1% chance of winning over a 0% chance of winning.

[Crazy]

I think this sounds a little BS-y. I don't think you just realized it could happen. By letting the mafia know that you're unnightkillable, you've guaranteed that a group town win is less likely to succeed.

But I guess that's pretty moot. Your claim isn't really up for argument.

The chance of town winning is very marginal; I just made that point so I could try to stump SOG.

Hey Crazy, now that you fullclaimed and stated that you know which claims are true and false...

What kind of weight and relevance should I give this quote:

No weight or relevance, it was still just a misuse of language.

I can attest that every character in the game has been accounted for; nobody has claimed a character that they are not. Starbuck IS Buzz Lightyear, SOG IS Robin Hood, you ARE copper, and Jazz IS Baloo.

[Crazy]

I'm a little paranoid. Starbuck/KK, would you mind unvoting? We have tons of time to talk before deadline... and I don't want a quickhammer.

[Crazy]

Your ideas are flawed, SOG, because of these two things:

1) You assume everyone else in the game has the same "ethical" notions that you have, and would prefer a slim shot of winning as a group rather than a larger chance of winning with me. The goal of the games on this site is to "play to win," not "play to your win condition."

2) A setup that included only 2 scum is NOT more likely than 3 scum. Adding an SK actually DECREASES the mafia's chances of winning. Think about it - if a standard setup has 3 mafia, and you add an SK that can kill them AND they lose one of their members, doesn't that severely hurt the mafia's chances of winning?

Vote: semioldguy

It's clear what you're doing - you're trying to get the town to lynch me which will lead to a mafia win, because, as you know, there were originally 3 mafia in this game.

[Crazy]

Adding to my point, note the site rule:

Play to win the game.

And I'm telling you, if I'm left at the end with one other person,

that person also wins the game!

Think about it guys, would a pro-town SOG completely disregard a certain way to win, just because he considered in "unethical?" The win condition was PUT INTO THE GAME; that proves that it's a valid way to win!

[Crazy]

For now, I'm going to assume Starbuck is town. She has a decent fitting flavor claim, she was on the Neopi wagon, and if she was scum, she would have had to claim Vanilla Townie before mass-claim, which I consider a very risky gambit, since most vanilla claims are just lynched. BAM!

That leaves the possible scumteams as:

SOG/Jazz - If this was true, then they didn't take a risk by trying to quicklynch KK or Starbuck. It's possible, but somewhat unlikely.

SOG/KK - SOG did seem to attack KK, but never voted for him, and instead switched his focus to me. Also, note how SOG seemed waiting for Jazz to post before he voted. He even said "Consider me voting for KK." Perhaps he was waiting to see if Jazz would vote for Starbuck and enable him to quickhammer?

KK/Jazz - If KK and Jazz were scum together, then I can't imagine why Jazz didn't side with SOG against me. Thus, this seems to be the least likely pairing of these three possibilities.

So I'm thinking it's SOG/KK, with SOG/Jazz as the next likely possibility. Obviously, I'm keeping my vote on SOG.

[Crazy]

And I'm not going to entertain the point that there were only 2 mafia at the start of the game. It's absurd to think the mafia could both be killed before Night 1. 2 mafia don't possibly have a chance in a setup with a Day-SK and 4 or 5 pro-town power roles.

[Crazy]

If I thought there was a decent chance that there would be a 2-man scum-team, I wouldn't have claimed.

I see the logic there, but I think that by excluding Starbuck from your thought processes, you are missing things. And, you're scum, of course, so I can't help but think that you're doing so on purpose.

Why would I be doing that? I lose if mafia isn't lynched today. I'm excluding Starbuck because I think she's town.

Honestly, I don't think Starbuck-scum would try to claim Vanilla Townie before a mass-claim. Have you ever seen a game where scum didn't claim a power role if they were forced to claim before mass-claim? (discounting any case where it wasn't viable because of an open setup or something?)

[Crazy]

KK, people that claim Vanilla Townie Day 1 are still lynched far more often than people who claim power roles. The only reason Monkey was lynched instead was because his role was ridiculously weak so it really didn't make a difference.

I don't see myself voting for Starbuck under any condition, really. How you and Jazz expect to get a lynch on her without my vote is beyond me.

[Crazy]

Bleh, the lack of a quickhammer led me to believe that Jazz/KK weren't scum together.

(SOG, if I would have voted KK, would you have done so as well?)

Honestly, I thought you were scum, SOG, just because you seemed to ignore the possibility of my win condition on principle, and not because you thought I was lying.

Actually, I was lying. Nobody could win with me. *wince*

Well played, KK and Jazz. I had a hunch you were scum, KK, but I wasn't really sure at all. Jazz, that was cool how you tried to save Gorrad from being lynched, and that was a major town tell for you in my point of view.

[Crazy]

crazy killing me then claiming I dont understand AT ALL.

I wanted to get the town in LyLo. If I managed to do that and then scum was lynched, I would win.

I chose to kill you because I didn't want to hit scum, and you were confirmed town. Also, since you were a double-voter, and if the scum didn't kill you (and with Jazz being scum, I'm not sure they would have, because if you were killed that would pretty much out Jazz as scum), that could mess up my game.

I claimed because if I was ever lynched, I knew the mafia would instantly win. I didn't consider that people would start talking like SOG. Also, claiming would instantly remove myself from the town's suspect list and make scum-hunting more productive.

I believe killing you still gave me a better chance of winning than trying to aim for scum. It made it simple - I win if scum is lynched; I lose if scum isn't lynched.

[Crazy]

Huh.. I figured that if you were lying, it was probably about the NK immunity. What would happen if there was 1 town/1 mafia/1 SK and you day-killed the mafia.. Would the townie win, or.. what?

Nope. I would be the only winner. I said it just so I couldn't lose in a Kingmaker scenario (1 mafia, 1 SK, and 2 townies left alive.)

[Crazy]

Why was Jazz trying to save Gorrad (both sooo late and quite ineffectively by also not doing anything herself to support the idea, i.e. moving her vote to help save him) a town tell for you Crazy?

Trying to save him is strictly more townish than not trying to save him, isn't it?