Mini 852- Crayola Catastrophe Game Over (Post 1158)

[ZazieR]

Oi~
Replacing Chamber. Will read this game now.

But I must say that the flavour written and the person killed as NPC are fun and very creative

[ZazieR]

Unvote; Vote: ZazieR

Has a tendency to excessively lurk in every game we've played together as the game goes on (with the exception of one in which he was killed night one) and always to the detriment of the town. The lurking into oblivion after early spells of activity has not been enjoyable in any of those games and I don't want it to happen for a fourth time. I'd much rather just get rid of ZazieR now.

Which is why I'm at page 3 and have already found two scum?
Also, RL>Mafia.
SoG, you're not a policy guy voter. Stop making you look like obvscum. You're making it too easy already.

[ZazieR]

Page number for the second quote, please. Seems I was right about SoG not being a policy lynch guy.

[ZazieR]

Done. Easy read with easy reads on most players.
So here is how it works. I'm two things:
-A stalker (Not for this game though)
-A 'spammer' (Every game in which I'm active)
You'll see a lot of posts of mine soon. Each addressing one post (and sometimes multiple posts). If either your username is mentioned in the quote or is bolded, it's very likely aimed at you. There are a few exceptions possible.

One warning, you don't want to interrupt my spamfest!
And as I have to add the violet everywhere, there's a good chance you will. If you do, prepare for the worst.

Let's start ^.^

[ZazieR]

Post 4 – Can

somebody

tell me if Nacho used black or a different colour before the mod (I assume) fixed it?

[ZazieR]

Post 11 –

Manzcar

, what’s bad about L-2? Due to Post 14, a better question would be: ‘What’s bad about a mini-bandwagon’?

[ZazieR]

Post 22 – For clarification, what was your reason to unvote,

Chibo

?

[ZazieR]

That is like unfair lynching me cause of my color!

I've been begging the mod to do something

but there's no other color's beside white. Do you want white?? Huh, would you like that better than yellow?

vote:ChiboSempai

for racist against yellow crayons. And that goes for the rest of the crayons who are racist too!!

Regarding the bolded, are you serious? If so, why did you ask him?

[ZazieR]

Post 27 – Why the ‘warning’,

SoG

?

[ZazieR]

Post 31 – Scummy from

Josh

due to calling a player out on lurking on the same day (At least, in my time) that the game started.

[ZazieR]

Post 32 – Scummy from

SoG

for pointing out a possible breadcrumb.

[ZazieR]

Don’t like Posts 42, 43 and 45.
Mostly, Post 42
I don’t like it how

Pome

asks a serious question in Post 45, yet didn’t check before Post 42 if she was ‘misrepped’ or not. As for Post 43 from

Manz

, it’s the same as Post 45. Giving the impression that Kirby did it on purpose to attack Pome.

[ZazieR]

Regarding unexplained votes:

Did you know that unexplained votes are the best things ever?
A few underlying principles:
1) Players -- especially when scum -- like to be comfortable. Bringing pressure that is difficult to respond to pulls them out of their comfort zones, making them react in a way they normally wouldn't react. This makes it significantly more likely that they will say or do something particularly telling of their alignments.
2) In the long-term, players often reveal the most about themselves when acting on limited information. While this maxim generally applies to the notion that D1 and D2 are the most revealing parts of a mafia game, it also applies when dealing with "unexplained votes."
2a) Let's look at the general case of an unexplained vote from a player of unknown alignment. The motivation for a protown player is to discern the intent of the voter, generally in order to obtain their alignment. The motivation of an anti-town player is to discern the intent of the voter (which sometimes involves seeking alignment) and to best utilize the situation to their advantage. There is an important, if subtle, difference. By cultivating our exploration of these differences, we can find new tools to seek and destroy the scumbaggoes amongst us.
2b) Now consider the case where I am a confirmed protown player making an unexplainded vote. In this case, my motivation is very clear. In some way, I am seeking to find scum. Here, I'm actually going to dip into one of my trade secrets and note that protown players tend to have a broader picture of our voter's intent, whereas scums tend to focus more on themselves (or, sometimes, their allies). If the person I'm voting is more concerened with how everyone else reacts than with deflecting my attack, they are usually more likely to be protown. If they immediately seek to bury someone else in accusations, wildly reject my vote/claims outright, or blame-shift, they're more likely to be scum.
3) Taking an alternate approach to scumhunting allows one to take advantage of "weak points" in other players' gameplay. Most mafia is played in the public arena. Players openly debate and discuss who is scum and why. Thus, most people tend to focus most of their attention on growing and evolving as players in this realm of open banter. A couple years ago, I learned that the vast majority of players didn't know how to react to certain circumstances. One such circumtsance was a completely irrational, yet intensely focused onslaught from an established player. This was a very noticeable chink in the mafia community's collective armor, and while you had your Internet Strangers and your Baby Jesuses (the paragons of this style of play), people who effectively played without explanation were very few and far between. Thus, very few players put the necessary time, thought, and effort into ensuring that they new how to interact with these playstyles. Over time, parts of the community evolve, and playing such playstyles shifts and changes just as the overall game meta does. Not only do they not know how to react, and not only do they give more information about themselves, but their weaknesses are actually exploitable, allowing the attacker as an individual to crack other players' shells and expose their soft, fleshy interiors, thus opening the game up for everybody.

[ZazieR]

Post 60 – Though Kirby gave multiple reasons what he didn’t like about a certain post of Chamber. You,

SoG

, didn’t do so, but you do state that you agree with most of Kirby’s points. Why didn’t you point these reasons out then?
Also, can you re-phrase the last sentence?

[ZazieR]

Post 76 (Budja) –

Zaz Reminder

[ZazieR]

Anyone who tries to vote for someone because they have an unreadable color will earn my vote from this point forward. There are much easier ways to deal with being able to read them (such as highlighting all their text with your mouse).

A silly blanket statement that can't be enforced.
You can't lynch someone based solely on them voting for a person over an off color.

Nor did you follow up on your apparently hollow threat. I voted you for an even more ridiculous reason, and yet you shrug if off as a random vote. I already made a random vote. And you were already calling out people with their random votes. And yet you ignore a blatantly obvious post that is right up your alley? Is that because it was targeted towards you? You didn't want to OMGUS yourself especially after calling someone else out on it with your NEXT post after my vote?

I like this argument that Socio used in Post 77. SoG’s post that follows doesn’t explain this as he didn’t change his vote at all in the post that he’s describing. Why didn’t you do so,

SoG

?

[ZazieR]

Chambers L-3 comment did look like a typical scum-trying-to-look-town comment for one.

Elaborate.

[ZazieR]

I thought it would look like I was stretching my original intent and that would look bad

. I didn't want to make an additional excuse for a poor vote. Even moreso because I saw something that was more worthy of comment. So I commented on that instead as it would be more productive and progress the game/scumhunting

Regarding the bolded: Seems somebody is scared to get attention.

[ZazieR]

Posts 87 and 88 –

Zaz Reminders

You guys are basically calling for a policy lynch on chamber, which is just as anti-town as the claims you have of him. Even players who play in anti-town ways will have tells that will out them when they are scum as opposed to town. Policy lynching avoids and ignores actual scumhunting.

Zaz Reminder

[ZazieR]

Post 96 –

Josh

, what’s rather irritating?

[ZazieR]

Post 98 – Don't like the talk of Chamber (me) being a powerrole by

GreenDude

. Looks like fishing. This gets also discussed in Post 103

[ZazieR]

Having a scummy meta and then defending those scummy actions in game with a cry of "but thats my meta!" is also scummy.

No, it’s not.

[ZazieR]

Post 121 – Scummy post from

Bunny

. First of all, acknowledging that it’s Chamber’s playstyle. The part about Budja shows some serious fence-sitting. And as SoG already asked, explain the part about Sociopath.
But now for the thing that is really scummy. The part about SoG. Reason stated that he’s scummy is the vote jumping. Yet, she agrees that Chamber’s playstyle is scummy and she can see the Budja case. Meaning that she thinks that SoG had good reasons to switch votes, yet still sees it as scummy. Explain why.

[ZazieR]

Post 137 – Scummy. Will elaborate later.

[ZazieR]

So my list would be as follows:
Scummy - SoG, Manzcar and to a lesser extent Budja
Neutral to Leaning scummy: Bunny, Pome, GD and Josh (Need to post more to get a better impression)
Who?: Nacho
Towny: Socio, Kirby and Chibo.


If you haven't posted yet, congratsulations ^.^ You won't be punished as the 'Spam fest' is over now

[ZazieR]

What's the point to all the self reminders and the "elaborate later" type comments? I don't like that at all. If you have something to say either say it now or keep it to yourself until it's relevant, hinting at it does the town no good and is only a distraction.

Zaz Reminder

means I have to look back at something.
I only said at one post that I'd elaborate further later in case Kirby, at whom the post was aimed, wanted to respond first.

[ZazieR]

Post 27 – Why the ‘warning’,

SoG

?

Because I didn't want people making a useless vote for that reason. I thought it better to warn than to not warn. As if I didn't warn and just voted someone who said that it could be seen as an excuse to vote that person rather than an excuse to vote that reason. It's more difficult for people to try to frame or misrepresent me if I provide a warning declaring my intentions. It also ends the random voting.

Due to the first sentence, the following question:
Do you see it as scummy for voting with such a reason or not?
Again, it seems you are scared of getting attention.

Post 32 – Scummy from

SoG

for pointing out a possible breadcrumb.

In my experience I've seen more breadcrumbs from scum than I have from town. I am also against breadcrumbing entirely, for reasons already mentioned.

So you think it's scummy that he 'bread-crumbed'?

Post 60 – Though Kirby gave multiple reasons what he didn’t like about a certain post of Chamber. You,

SoG

, didn’t do so, but you do state that you agree with most of Kirby’s points. Why didn’t you point these reasons out then?
Also, can you re-phrase the last sentence?

I felt that I did, but that he just stated them better. As for rephrasing I thought it was pretty straightforward. He issued an ultimatum/challenge to the town, that in itself is scummy and was deserving of my vote. This was prior to the meta defense of chamber and the ultra-fast wagon.

Kirby mentioned three things against Post 53. Your response to Post 53 only shows Kirby's second argument. I don't see anywhere the first or the third argument.
Why did you write the last sentence? Did those two things effect your view of the wagon? If so, why and how?

Anyone who tries to vote for someone because they have an unreadable color will earn my vote from this point forward. There are much easier ways to deal with being able to read them (such as highlighting all their text with your mouse).

A silly blanket statement that can't be enforced.
You can't lynch someone based solely on them voting for a person over an off color.

Nor did you follow up on your apparently hollow threat. I voted you for an even more ridiculous reason, and yet you shrug if off as a random vote. I already made a random vote. And you were already calling out people with their random votes. And yet you ignore a blatantly obvious post that is right up your alley? Is that because it was targeted towards you? You didn't want to OMGUS yourself especially after calling someone else out on it with your NEXT post after my vote?

I like this argument that Socio used in Post 77. SoG’s post that follows doesn’t explain this as he didn’t change his vote at all in the post that he’s describing. Why didn’t you do so,

SoG

?

This was already explained. I said that I would vote for the next person to do X. SocioPath didn't do X, he did Y. Therefore, I did not vote for him. Yes, X and Y are very, very similar, but they are not the same.

Due to the first quote of yours in this post, this explanation is bad.
You state that you made the 'warning' so that other players wouldn't make a useless vote for a difficult-to-read colour. Key words: Useless vote. As SocioPath's vote could also be defined as useless, you need to explain why you didn't vote him for his 'useless' vote.
Also, I was talking more that you stated that you were thinking of voting him, but in the end decided not to do so.

Regarding the bolded: Seems somebody is scared to get attention.

If that were true, which it isn't, then why would I point it out and bring attention to it myself?

As it was the only excuse you could think off to try and get the argument away of not voting SocioPath?

[ZazieR]

Pointing out a breadcrumb isn't scummy. Scum would benefit more from keeping quiet about it and just silently killing that person during the night.

Tell that to Nuwen
And no, scum can have reasons to talk about it in the game. For examples:
-Getting discussion at a possible powerrole.
-Trying to make a player look bad if he claims a powerrole.
-Looking into reactions from other players to see who can be a powerrole, especially at the one who 'breadcrumbed'

[ZazieR]

Post 137 – Scummy. Will elaborate later.

Please elaborate now. You took the time to make the post take the time to validate your claim. I would like to know how it is scummy. I don't see anything scummy there. Statements without reason do nothing for the town.

Kirby I don't find you scummy it just seemed lazy to me for you to want others to tell you who to vote for. Which is how I took your statement.

The way you formulated your question from the earlier post and not responding to what Kirby's response was.

[ZazieR]

What's the point to all the self reminders and the "elaborate later" type comments? I don't like that at all. If you have something to say either say it now or keep it to yourself until it's relevant, hinting at it does the town no good and is only a distraction.

Please elaborate now. You took the time to make the post take the time to validate your claim.... Statements without reason do nothing for the town.

I agree completely.

I agree. Posting "reminders" to yourself in a public thread seems ..... I don't know, less than Town. Surely you have the means to keep notes to yourself on your own computer, or perhaps a piece of paper, or maybe scrawling in crayons on the wall.... It just seems to be shitting up the thread for no apparent reason.

Ctrl+f is my best friend after Wikipedia

[ZazieR]

Post 31 – Scummy from

Josh

due to calling a player out on lurking on the same day (At least, in my time) that the game started.

You missed the part where I said "semi-random" -- right?

No. It's why I pointed it out.

[ZazieR]

Sorry,

Unvote; Vote: ZazieR

Why?

[ZazieR]

In response to the part of Kirby's three arguments against Chamber -

SoG

, with which of those did you agree?

[ZazieR]

As said, if you wanted to respond to it as Manzcar was talking to you. As you didn't, I pointed out why it was scummy to me.

[ZazieR]

Post 121 – Scummy post from

Bunny

. First of all, acknowledging that it’s Chamber’s playstyle.

What's so scummy about that? I've seen playstyles like that before, so I'm not really surprised.

Check the linked post. You were making personal attacks to him regarding his mafia playstyle (See the first three sentences and the last two of the first paragraph) That's scummy.
Also, a question: Why do you still have your random vote active?

The part about Budja shows some serious fence-sitting.

Fence-sitting? I gave my opinion on it. What else did you want? A whole speech about why I don't buy the case?

The reason why I don't like this, is because you disagree with it. I can't see how you can see why some players can agree with it, while you disagree with it.

And as SoG already asked, explain the part about Sociopath.

I meant Sociopath pointing out SoG's rolefishing in post 32

What's bad about it?
It seems you like this less than SoG pointing out something he can see as breadcrumb. Why?
Also, if you didn't like SocioPath pointing this out, why didn't you mention me doing it?

But now for the thing that is really scummy. The part about SoG. Reason stated that he’s scummy is the vote jumping. Yet, she agrees that Chamber’s playstyle is scummy and she can see the Budja case. Meaning that she thinks that SoG had good reasons to switch votes, yet still sees it as scummy. Explain why.

One thing is the usual playstyle, the other is a specific situation. I can see why others would go for Budja case, but I don't think it's strong enough (more like a misunderstanding).
SoG's vote jumping I don't like, but that doesn't mean he can't have reasons to move from one place to another. I just don't like that he can't keep a vote in a single place. And that's not the real problem. The thing is that he moves back and forth from the players he previously voted. That, I don't like. I'm not saying that it's a scum marker, but it's something worthy of looking up.

Can you give your opinion of each SoG vote switch?

P.S. For some reason, this last bit doesn't appear in violet O.o

[ZazieR]

Hi, SoG

[ZazieR]

In response to the part of Kirby's three arguments against Chamber -

SoG

, with which of those did you agree?

All of his points minus the part that he thought abrasiveness was a scum tell. I already said this. You should read my posts.

Yes, I think it is potentially scummy that Josh Lyman might have breadcrumbed. I stand by my opinion that scum would be better off not bringing up potential breadcrumbs. If you think scum benefit from talking about it (I don't think this) then why do you keep bringing it up? That seems like a contradiction to me. If you were town and thought this then you would just request to have the subject dropped.

Chamber's explanations were good, yet despite that his wagon and lynch support continued to grow. Yes I am suspicious of his wagon, as evidence by my reason for voting Budja and my case against him.

The questions you are asking almost all have already been answered if you go back and actually read my posts.

Then you still need to explain how come you didn't mention the first argument Kirby used yourself.

Thanks for telling that you thought it was scummy of Josh. Noted that you only pointed it out, but didn't continue persuing it. Also, at Death Note Mafia, I stated that I wanted Misa Misa dead. How come Josh's opening post here contained a 'breadcrumb', but my post at Phables wasn't to you?
As for your accusation, I don't think it was a breadcrumb and I don't like how you're attacking him for that post. I'm keep bringing it up, because I think it shows that you are scum.

As for the part about Chamber, the meta defence was made before you unvoted. And you did post after that explanation. As for the second reason given, you are not allowed to complain about it as you stated that if you could, you'd have voted him 2 or 3 times more.

Last, but not least, this post contains an unanswered question in the first paragraph. Please answer.

[ZazieR]

Post 31 – Scummy from

Josh

due to calling a player out on lurking on the same day (At least, in my time) that the game started.

You missed the part where I said "semi-random" -- right?

No. It's why I pointed it out.

Got it. No random voting stage with

ZazieR

.

Anything else I need to know to keep from offending you?

RVS is fun.
My problem is the 'semi' bit.

[ZazieR]

Post 137 – Scummy. Will elaborate later.

Please elaborate now. You took the time to make the post take the time to validate your claim. I would like to know how it is scummy. I don't see anything scummy there. Statements without reason do nothing for the town.

Kirby I don't find you scummy it just seemed lazy to me for you to want others to tell you who to vote for. Which is how I took your statement.

The way you formulated your question from the earlier post and not responding to what Kirby's response was.

Can you please elaborate.
How did I formulate the question in a scummy way?
Also are you saying that I am scummy because I didn’t respond to Kirby’s response? .

A player asked what the case on a different player is. You were questioning his reasons for doing so. You asked the following:
-Kirby any particular reason you want others to do the heavy lifting for you?
Which is scummy formulated as you're soft attacking him in it based upon an assumption, making it basically misrep. Note the difference between the above question and this one:
-Kirby, why did you ask for the Budja case?

Main reason why you're scummy for this post is the above question. You not responding is still scummy, but less.

[ZazieR]

SoG

, why nothing against Post 36?

[ZazieR]

@people not voting
Why aren't you voting? Who would you vote if you had to place a vote right now?

because in my mind I do not have a definite lead as to where I should place my vote.

Not liking this.

There are no "definates" as of now, and you certainly can't say you don't have ideas about anyone so far.

Perhaps scum that is a little too worried to place a vote on someone they know isn't scum.

Withholding votes is withholding information.

Not liking this.

WIFOM. To say because I don't feel like I have a good enough idea or a definite idea in my own mind who I find scummy means I am scum trying to hide is scummy. Why are you trying to force an accusation and place suspicion because I answered a question? Do you think it is more protown to just vote for anyone or to vote when you feel comfortable about the vote? You are inferring that I am withholding information because I am not voting but I fully answered the question withholding nothing that I am thinking. So how did I withhold information?

Zaz Reminder

[ZazieR]

As you can see, I don't have very many reads, but I'm doing this because I think it's important to contribute.

Noticed that. One scum read, two you think are town and all the others come basically down as neutral. So why did you make a list, instead of focusing your post mainly on the player you think is scummy?

Secondly, you write at SoG a bit that you don't think it's scummy to be not voting. Yet, it's SocioPath who attacks Manzcar for something like this on this page. Why didn't you point this out at SocioPath, especially when you said that you like his views?

Also, Zaz= he/him

[ZazieR]

@Josh - I'm not crazy

[ZazieR]

So my list would be as follows:
Scummy - SoG, Manzcar and to a lesser extent Budja
Neutral to Leaning scummy: Bunny, Pome, GD and Josh (Need to post more to get a better impression)
Who?: Nacho
Towny: Socio, Kirby and Chibo.

Previous list^^
The changes: Pome goes to the scummy list. Budja goes to the Neutral list. GD goes to the towny list, and so does Nacho. Will each time when I post a list include an updated previous list in the same post.

[ZazieR]

Sorry for not posting more. I don't get to go on the computer very often.

I would probably say that the scum are hiding. Just sitting back as a few people make arguments and try to lynch semioldguy.

I don't find where SoG is scummy. Could someone write out the case on him?

If SoG is townie, then the scum most likely have their vote on him but aren't saying anything to keep the bandwagon moving. At least that's what I think.

I actually like this wagon. We've got 5 votes on SoG, who's scum. I'm on it and I know my role. SocioPath and Kirby are very likely to be town. And we've got busser, Pome on it. (And of course neutral Budja).

Anyway, SoG doesn't fit his meta I have of him as town (The breadcrumb bit for example), the policy lynch vote of his and him being a hypocrite. (A very short summary) SoG is the most obv scum to me.

[ZazieR]

@Josh

What I don't like about your semi-random vote is:
-It was based upon lurking, while the game had started that day.
-You were the 11th player to post. Only Kirby (The one you voted based upon 'lurking') came after you.

*Except ZazieR, but I need to stay far, far away from the crazy right now.

Then what are you calling me here?

[ZazieR]

Ugh, I hate it when players post in the quotes ._.
As for the Kirby quote in which

SoG

responded inside the quote in this post, those statements you made were said earlier. This was what you said in response to Chamber's post, while Kirby responded like that:

From the wiki:

OMGUS stands for "Oh My God, You Suck (for voting for me)!". it is sometimes used as a shorthand to indicate that you are voting for someone primarily because they voted for you.

Since my vote wasn't because you voted me at all it is in fact NOT an omgus vote.

Also I don't explain my votes, get over it.

If you don't explain your vote, then you can't explain that it wasn't an OMGUS vote.

I don't see any statements like you pointed out in it.

As for the part where I talk about your post regarding Josh's 'breadcrumb':
You still felt the need to point it out. In Death Note, you didn't. So the explanation of not following up on it as reason given for not mentioning mine 'breadcrumb' in Death Note is fail.
You may also explain why you think Josh is your best town read.
The second paragraph in your post about this, shows exactly why I don't like it. You gave up pretty easily for something you think is scummy.

Don't understand the part about your response to my accusations of your reaction to the Chamber case. Please rephrase.
As for the part about Chibi, the way he responded to it, makes him more likely to be town.

As for the last bit of that first quote, it's easy. It has to do with SocioPath's vote. Because his vote could also be defined as 'useless'. Yet, you didn't vote him. Why is the 'useless' vote regarding unreadable colour vote worthy, but not SocioPath's 'useless' vote towards your colour?

I'll address the Remindrs if they are indeed an indication of allignment. Which is why I need to check them again.

[ZazieR]

Hi, SoG

SoG

, why nothing against Post 36?

Don't we love unanswered questions ?
State why you didn't respond to them,

SoG

after answering them

[ZazieR]

For

Pome

:

As you can see, I don't have very many reads, but I'm doing this because I think it's important to contribute.

Noticed that. One scum read, two you think are town and all the others come basically down as neutral. So why did you make a list, instead of focusing your post mainly on the player you think is scummy?

Secondly, you write at SoG a bit that you don't think it's scummy to be not voting. Yet, it's SocioPath who attacks Manzcar for something like this on this page. Why didn't you point this out at SocioPath, especially when you said that you like his views?

Also, Zaz= he/him

[ZazieR]

He voted twice for me.
Here and here (Posts 127 and 173)

[ZazieR]

My opinion on the bandwagon on semioldguy:

While I like the bandwagon in terms of the pressure it's giving, I can't say I'm a big fan of where the bandwagon's going. So far, the bandwagon on SoG has made everyone focus on his scumminess, leaving the rest of us in the dark. While I see mentions of what seems to be the general opinion right about now, I don't see it being a valid enough reason to put him at L-2, or even a valid enough reason to put my vote on him just yet.

The first vote he places on Zazie looks like a pressure to get him to be active, rather than an attempt to get a lynch. And as for his supposed "hypocrisy"... I view that as an attempt to avoid saying that it's simply a pressure vote; after all, that would entirely remove its potentcy. Notice how he hints this with the phrase "I am a pressure vote guy though...".

Also, I've been a big fan of semioldguy's aggressiveness; let's not forget who brought us out of the RVS, shall we? I'm getting a pro-town read from him simply because he doesn't seem afraid to mention what looks scummy, nor does he seem to tunnel on anyone; when he sees something scummy, he questions it.

As for who I actually find suspicious at this moment, that award falls to Budja. I'm not a big fan of his complete lack of questioning and scumhunting, and his little counting fiasco seemed to me like an attempt to push the Chamber bandwagon over the edge.

And because Im a big fan of encouragement, here's a

Vote: Budja

to help the explanations come faster.

Regarding SoG's votes on me:
-The first vote was indeed stated to be a pressure vote.
-The second vote is the hypocrite vote. How come you didn't include this vote in your analysis of the SoG wagon and what's your opinion of it?

I have one other thing to respond to later on.

[ZazieR]

Also, I've been a big fan of semioldguy's aggressiveness; let's not forget who brought us out of the RVS, shall we? I'm getting a pro-town read from him simply because he doesn't seem afraid to mention what looks scummy, nor does he seem to tunnel on anyone; when he sees something scummy, he questions it.

SoG

, your opinion of this quote please.

[ZazieR]

That was just the very explanation I was looking for.

Unvote: Budja. Vote: Josh Lyman

That vote will not move until I see five posts from him.

That is a good point, I hadn't thought of that. However, it doesn't explain why semioldguy is still voting for Zazie and in fact pushing for his lynch for no good reason.

It seems to me that you have the two confused. SoG may still be voting for Zazie, but he definitely isn't fighting for the lynch. Right now, he seems to be defending himself, which I think he's doing a pretty good job of.

Please elaborate on the part in which you say that that was the explanation you were looking for.

Why Josh and not somebody else?

SoG is going for my lynch.

[ZazieR]

Dear SoG,

Can you please help me? When I thought I found the three scum in you, Pome and Manz, Nacho suddenly decided to act as a possible buddy of yours. Whom of the three is not your buddy?

Please respond asap

Zaz

[ZazieR]

@Josh

What I don't like about your semi-random vote is:
-It was based upon lurking, while the game had started that day.
-You were the 11th player to post. Only Kirby (The one you voted based upon 'lurking') came after you.

Okay, fine. Yes, it was based on lurking,

on the first day.

What is it about 'jokevote' that you don't get? And, yes, everybody else had posted; that's why I singled out Kirby

for not posting.

Can you say "overanalyzing?" I knew you could.

Once again, it's based upon the 'semi-' bit.

[ZazieR]

Demanding content would be better than posts. Josh can spent the most of his posts defending himself. IMO, that whole fuss over the random vote is a bit much.

It's the only thing he has to defend against, which is almost the only thing he does lately though.

[ZazieR]

Hi, SoG

Hi. The answers are there pretty clearly if you look for them (though probably not in that same post). You seem a little over-concerned with this vote on you considering the attention you are giving it despite that it is the only one you've gotten.

You can still restate them and where you posted those reasons. Because as said, this vote is a hypocrite vote to me. You attacked Chamber for not explaining his vote and you're doing the same in the post with the second vote.

SoG

, why nothing against Post 36?

I thought I'd responded to this one in my last big post, but I guess I deleted that part accidentally. What it said was something like "Why would I? He didn't vote for a color being unreadable."

Which brings me to this again:

As for the last bit of that first quote, it's easy. It has to do with SocioPath's vote. Because his vote could also be defined as 'useless'. Yet, you didn't vote him. Why is the 'useless' vote regarding unreadable colour vote worthy, but not SocioPath's 'useless' vote towards your colour?

So please explain. Also, anything you want to say regarding Post 249?

Also, I've been a big fan of semioldguy's aggressiveness; let's not forget who brought us out of the RVS, shall we? I'm getting a pro-town read from him simply because he doesn't seem afraid to mention what looks scummy, nor does he seem to tunnel on anyone; when he sees something scummy, he questions it.

SoG

, your opinion of this quote please.

Looks good to me

Not to me.
-You do tunnel
-You state that you only point out the scummy things of your top 2 suspects.
Making the last two statements invalid.

This is a bad wagon right now.

We need to run up a counter wagon to get some responses

.

Unvote; Vote: Pomegranate

Elaborate on the bolded

[ZazieR]

@Josh

What I don't like about your semi-random vote is:
-It was based upon lurking, while the game had started that day.
-You were the 11th player to post. Only Kirby (The one you voted based upon 'lurking') came after you.

Okay, fine. Yes, it was based on lurking,

on the first day.

What is it about 'jokevote' that you don't get? And, yes, everybody else had posted; that's why I singled out Kirby

for not posting.

Can you say "overanalyzing?" I knew you could.

Once again, it's based upon the 'semi-' bit.

Well, whatever. I obviously can't stop you from perseverating over this, but I

can

stop responding to it. Therefore, this is my last post concerning my 'semi-random' vote.

Aaaawww, I <3 you too ^.^

[ZazieR]

Post 283

<snip>

That is a good point, I hadn't thought of that. However, it doesn't explain why semioldguy is still voting for Zazie and in fact pushing for his lynch for no good reason.

<snip>

Please elaborate on the part in which you say that that was the explanation you were looking for.

Why Josh and not somebody else?

SoG is going for my lynch.

I wanted an explanation for his action. An explanation is what I got.

Why Josh? I looked through and saw a minimal amount of content from Josh. Posts? Sure. Content? No.

And how do you know SoG is going for your lynch? You aren’t psychic, are you?

My question about the explanation from Budja, was mainly due to: "That was just the very explanation

I was looking for

."
Please elaborate on that.

Don't like your reason for voting Josh. You stated that he has posts, but no content. What do you ask from him: 5 posts. The right use of words would have been that you wouldn't move your vote until you would see content from him. Explain the choice of words you've used.
Also, I don't like how you're going for pressure votes.

Budja showed some good posts where it was shown that SoG was fighting for my lynch.

Dear SoG,

Can you please help me? When I thought I found the three scum in you, Pome and Manz, Nacho suddenly decided to act as a possible buddy of yours. Whom of the three is not your buddy?

Please respond asap

Zaz

You mind explaining why I'm acting as a scum buddy to SoG? Because I don't agree with a bandwagon that doesn't have a whole lot of thought put into it?

Looking at the opinion given at Post 257:
-You discuss his first vote against me. First of all, you're using your own impression of it. Eventhough SoG had already stated that it was for pressure.
Second, his second vote was the worst vote and you leave that one completely out of your analysis. And I ask once again, why is that?
-The other thing is shown in the paragraph about SoG's aggressiveness. Because as SoG stated before, he only focuses on his top two suspects or one and even then, he was mainly focusing on me at that time. Making the things you said there, untrue.

[ZazieR]

Not to me.
-You do tunnel
-You state that you only point out the scummy things of your top 2 suspects.
Making the last two statements invalid.

Surely you're not serious. You have been focused on ONE suspect this entire game, and you're saying someone else is tunneling? Forgive me if I'm missing something here, but the only scummy thing you actually pursued came from SoG.

Secondly, I fail how to see how the second bullet point is scummy. Your two major subjects are the two people who you have the most information on. So, in focusing on the two scummiest, you get a lot better read on someone, as opposed to flying all over the place and pouncing on scummy things about everyone. It doesn't mean your not noting it, but it does mean your keeping silent about it.

Only one suspect? Tell that to Josh. Or all those other players I've questioned their behaviour off.
Secondly, did I call the points scummy?

[ZazieR]

Ok, so I think I can give a more realistic representation of SOG's discussion with Zazie over not voting Socio than they can themselves...

I'm going to vote for anyone who votes for someone based on having an unreadable color.

I vote SOG for having a

readable

color.

SOG, you don't find that scummy?

No, it's perfectly OK, since he voted for the opposite reason I mentioned.

But it's still a vote based on color, which is in the same ballpark as what you mentioned.

But it's not the same, so I don't find it scummy.

But shouldn't you find it scummy, since it's still a color issue?

No.

Is this basically what SOG and Zazie mean by their arguments?

I hope this helps you both to stop arguing about this, and maybe team up to do some scumhunting

I was more interested in the "why". It seemed as if SoG didn't want the votes as he thought they were useless. The same applies to Socio's and GD's votes. But both didn't get mentioned.

And "team up"?

[ZazieR]

This is a bad wagon right now.

We need to run up a counter wagon to get some responses

.

Unvote; Vote: Pomegranate

Elaborate on the bolded

No.

It is not always pro-town to come forward with reasoning first. I'll elaborate after it happens. If you disagree with something that doesn't come with a reason, you should post your reason for why you think it would be bad to do that.

HoS: ZazieR

How would it not be pro-town to give reasons for why you think something? This game is built on reasoning, and if you're not willing to state it, it makes you look pretty scummy.

The difference between semioldguy and chamber is that SoG said "... come forward with reasoning

first."

chamber, on the other hand, wasn't going to explain. Ever.

I see the difference. Don't you?

And SoG was? Couldn't tell that as he refused to tell after all the times it was asked

[ZazieR]

Ok, so I think I can give a more realistic representation of SOG's discussion with Zazie over not voting Socio than they can themselves...

I'm going to vote for anyone who votes for someone based on having an unreadable color.

I vote SOG for having a

readable

color.

SOG, you don't find that scummy?

No, it's perfectly OK, since he voted for the opposite reason I mentioned.

But it's still a vote based on color, which is in the same ballpark as what you mentioned.

But it's not the same, so I don't find it scummy.

But shouldn't you find it scummy, since it's still a color issue?

No.

Is this basically what SOG and Zazie mean by their arguments?

I hope this helps you both to stop arguing about this, and maybe team up to do some scumhunting

I was more interested in the "why". It seemed as if SoG didn't want the votes as he thought they were useless. The same applies to Socio's and GD's votes. But both didn't get mentioned.

And "team up"?

Now with colour

[ZazieR]

Unvote

as promised. But I still want more content.

@Snow Bunny:

1) To me, vote patterns (how much you vote) are null-tells. You can vote for one person because you find them the scummiest, or you can vote for multiple because you believe in pressure voting.

2) Did you read my bit on SoG's hypocrisy? If so, what do you think about it?

3) Not necessarily stretching. Pointing FoSes without votes down suggests a fear to have to explain a vote.

4) Self-preservation isn't scummy either. If you are a townie and are trying to avoid being lynched, defending yourself and starting a bandwagon against someone else is preventing a mislynch, which is pro-town.

You voted Josh for more content, but here you unote him, eventhough you want more content? Yep, needs some explanations.

And why did you respond before SoG did?

[ZazieR]

Sorry, I have been sick the past couple days, just caught up.

So SoG is at L-1?

Tell me SoG, what is your reasoning for voting Pomegranate? Make it a good one.

This was all you had to ask after your read?
Before the last few posts of the day, you were wondering why so many players were voting SoG. The reasons got stated, and you don't address them. You only ask SoG for the Pome vote. Why didn't you give a comment about the SoG case(s)?

[ZazieR]

I've read the thread, I know what's going on, but I want to hear in one concise post your specific reasoning for that vote, especially since the only reasoning next to your vote post is that you want a different wagon to start.

Did you see Post 287?

[ZazieR]

SoG I think you're trying too hard to push for a wagon on someone else. I don't think thats deserving tbh.

Vote: semioldguy

Please elaborate on the reason.

[ZazieR]

@Pome

Did you check up on Point 2 in Post 308?

[ZazieR]

I just realized I hammered SoG... Well, technically, it was ChiboSempai, as my vote was already on him (well, at least the intention was there.) Anyways, SoG was still scummy in front of my eyes.

Don't like how she's trying to blame Chibo.

[ZazieR]

No, that hammer was from you. And it was completely uncalled for. We just got a new replacement; thus, a new viewpoint on the SoG case. At least wait for the replacement to express his views before hammering :/

Gut is activated on this.

[ZazieR]

If correct, everybody has posted after the lynch. So I'm curious:
How come nobody asked what a jester is and how it already won?

This question should be answered in this queue:
First - Chibo and Nacho
Second - GD and Kirby
Third - Pome, Socio and Budja.

Doesn't matter when you answer, as long as the those mentioned before your group answered before your group.

[ZazieR]

I don't feel it changes anything. SoG wasn't town either way which means to Snow_Bunny for all she knew he was town seeing that she would have known he wasn't mafia (considering shes mafia and knows the other mafia members).

The whole line of voting for her really didn't sitwell with me. I know I was one of the ending votes, but I didn't hammer for a purpose and wanted to see how she would handle the pressure having a chance from a normal vote to be turned to a hammer, and she jumped right to the occasion not thinking about it.

Why did you answer a question that wasn't aimed at you?
Would you have hammered him?
Is this the main reason you think Shanba is scum?

[ZazieR]

zazie is right about just about everything, but some of his lines of enquiry are pretty pointless (like asking green_dude if he really wanted his colour changed - I'm pretty sure he did!) In particular, though, I wanted to try and explain his attack on josh_lyman since I think he hasn't been entirely clear there: Josh's vote is for lurking, which josh explains as a jokevote - but in his post he says that it is only semi-random - which indicates that it can't be entirely random. I don't think this in and of itself is significant, but I do think the amount of time Josh spent debating on this and not talking about other, more important things is scummy.

My reason for asking GD that question wasn't to ask IF he asked the mod that, but WHY he asked the mod that question. The IF question was only asked as 'side track question'.
As for the part regarding Josh, it was because of the 'semi-'. As already stated, it was the first day it had started and Josh was the one who was almost last. Only the one who he voted posted later than Josh. Add that he hasn't pursued any other lurker that day, while stating he hates them. Those are the reasons why I don't like this vote.

As for your scum list, I say Josh (Now EK) and Pome in the scumteam. The third is one of the other three players you've mentioned.

[ZazieR]

EBWOP: As for the third spot for scum, my list:
1. Chibo
2. Budja
3. Nacho

[ZazieR]

Before anything, Shanba can you please not type in all bold, even if it is a little easier to read. It makes it harder for people to scan and find votes, even if you put bold tags around it, though it comes out as text since your already in bold.

I already explained my vote on SoG. It was to put pressure on Snow_Bunny. I wanted to see if her reasoning for thinking SoG was legit. People vote differently when it's a vote (especially putting them at L-1) and hammering them. I almost wanted to see if she had the guts, believed in her reasoning enough, and would debate about it more before she hammered.

Her hammer post was well... Interesting. I don't like how it turned out. Besides the fact she missed color (which almost everyone has done at some point or other) but it seems to hint at rushing to get that hammer in before someone unvotes. She posted 3 minutes later trying to explain how it was technically me who hammered him also claiming that she didn't realized she hammered him at first, but that's not gonna fly. If she had actually thought about what was going on and read the ~1 page of posts between her two votes, she would know whats going on, and there would also be no need for two posts, the first being rushed imo, which had to be in even 3 minutes before her explanation.

Same policy as the Zazier replacement though, I'm not just gonna let a replacement clear all doubts. If Snow_Bunny acts scummy, with the chance she's scum (her being my #1 suspect right now), then her replacement is scum as well, being Shanba. Shanba is going to have to prove that he's not scum, instead of the opposite (finding reasons to think he's scum) like other players after my scum read on Snow_Bunny.

Vote: Shanba

Zazier seems to be one of the best players here at analyzing the situations and all of the players. What's your take on Snow_Bunny/Shanba concerning Bunnie's fake (accidental) vote on SoG, and her hammering post, and Shanba's reasoning for voting me?

First of all, why didn't you point out these things regarding SB in your first post of the day? You did state that you thought it was scummy, but not this detailed.
Secondly, I don't think you ever addressed SB's reasons for voting SoG. How come and what did you think of them?

At this moment, I'm leaning town on Shanba (Previously SB). Shanba has good accusations and I can see a reason why SB's hammer vote can be explained. Leaving my previous accusations, but compared to arguments against others, she looks better than most of them.
Also, I can see where Shanba is coming from against you as the reason for your vote is weak with reasons explained.

[ZazieR]

May I first read? Thank you.

[ZazieR]

I only skimmed half the game, not taking notes,

since I wasn't sure I would see morning

.

Why (Regarding the bolded)?

Pretty sure from the above post that Shanba is scum though. Buddies to chamber, affirms that SoG wagon was good except for the end because he wants to blame budja and chibo. And then connects me to budja because budja didn't agree with an attack on me... some BS reasoning that since the attack was weak, we are likely scum together? Why assume we're scum, rather than , oh say, budja saw weak reasoning and disagreed with it?

How did he buddy?
As for the SoG wagon bit, looking at your list with opinions of each player, you also state that Budja's vote was scummy. So do you still think that Shanba was blaming Budja? Also, what did you think of Chibo's vote?

Shanba's brand of reasoning is divisive, discouraging town from picking on a bad attack lest they be accused of being scum buddies. If Shanba agrees that it was a weak attack against me, then what Budja did was perfectly natural.

Rephrase?
Also, the last thing isn't what Shanba said.

I also think that discussing scum buddies TOO much is a scum tactic. Noticing relationships between players is a good thing, but noticing a connection between two players should not be the basis for thinking they're both scum. It is simply not enough and too open to manipulation. Possible scum connections should only be supporting evidence, until such time as somebody flips scum. That is the only time that we should get too far into scum buddy talk, when we have something concrete. Otherwise it is a fallacy.

Oh, and BTW, Shanba replaced snowbunny who hammered instead of allowing me to play the game as manzcar. Didn't want a replacement coming in and changing the lynch, did she? Not when she knew the lynch was not on any of the scum team. Push that baby through and NK me... much easier for them.

And another thing, did anyone else notice how Shanba blames the end of the lynch, conveniently not mentioning his part in it, how snowbunny's hammer was probably the worst vote of them all?

First paragraph: Looking at your list with opinions of players again, you didn't mention this at my bit. Eventhough you think it's scummy. How come?

Second paragraph: Do you still think this is the case?

Third paragraph: SB's vote wasn't the worst vote.

[ZazieR]

Chamber was replaced but the player slot is not dead. If you're saying chamber wagon was bad and he's town, then you're saying zazie is town too.

Oh? Didn't you say that the wagon was bad and that Chamber looked town? Yet, you think I'm neutral. Please explain the difference between this quote and your impression of me.

[ZazieR]

Yea SOG did play Jester pretty damn well lol.

But all seriousness aside, I'm not buying these posts from Shanba.

I like how he tried to even call Snow_Bunny scummy but claims it's not a problem since he knows the hammer didn't come from a scum player. Since you're declaring yourself as a townie here, mind telling us which one?
It's too convenient to play the whole replacement excuse trying to push all of scum reads on the person he replaced onto that person, and not on the role they shared.

If Snow_Bunny acted scummy (which I think we can agree overall it was a horrendously scummy move), it was because the role Snow_Bunny was playing was a scum role, not because Snow_Bunny was a scummy player.

And the scum role gets passed onto the replacement, Shanba.

Rolefishing.
Also, how did you come to that conclusion? (see the bolded)

[ZazieR]

Wow, I think this is the first post I disagree with Socio.

[ZazieR]

I agree with EK in that this was not necessary, and also a bit scummy, but I don't like her last sentence. Why do you think this, EK?

I don't think shanba is obvtown or anything. But the fact that chibo seems to be rolefishing hard makes me think shanba

may

be town. You know, that he's the victim of rolefishing-scum-chibo.

Perhaps Chobo is too new to know otherwise.

Seems this isn't the case as he just pointed out he has played before. Thoughts about his rolefishing?

[ZazieR]

Ok, so looking back, I think my case on Josh was a little far-fetched, and EK hasn't been acting scummy at all, so for the moment she's off my scumdar. Shanba, on the other hand,

has

been acting scummy (I concur with Chibo and Socio, although I trust Socio more atm), so, true to my only other post today...

Vote: Shanba

Chibo went up on my list for the rolefishing, but I think his case on Snow/Shanba holds water.

Please elaborate on the following:
-You stated that you think your case against Josh is a little

Why do you think this?
-You state that Shanba has been acting scummy. With which arguments used by Socio and Chobi against Shanba do you agree?

[ZazieR]

Top 2 scummiest players please, everyone.

Pome and EK

[ZazieR]

ooh, I've managed to slightly shock shanba.

Noted that this was the only thing you had to say in response to Post 345

[ZazieR]

I'd like to hear from more people, like Greendude, Nacho, and Zazie. But I'd give them some time, considering that Night didn't end that long ago.

That, and I was LA back then.
But if you wanted to hear more from us, why didn't you ask any question?

[ZazieR]

In response to this post from Chibo:
-Why didn't you state earlier what you didn't like about Shanba's big post?
-Why is this not the time or place to side discussion about Shanba's post?

[ZazieR]

Shanba, in response to your post about my 2 most scummy players, #1 is obvyou, since that's where my vote is. For #2, I'd like to hear from players who haven't posted in D2, but right now, if you prove you're town, which you're doing a horrible job of, I'd go after either EK or Chibo. But the case on you depends on them being town.

Rephrase?

[ZazieR]

While deciding who to vote in D1, we don't have much to go off of, nothing has really happened yet. Move forward to D2 however, and we have the voting procedure leading to the lynching of SoG from D1, the night kill, and the morning reactions. All of these things together point directly at Shanba.

How are all these pointing towards Shanba?

[ZazieR]

Alright, I have to disagree with you there. Defending against a weak case is not a scumtell IMO. Townies defend against weak cases so they can shut down stupid bandwagons (like the one on chamber or SoG, for example) before they even begin, or to challenge it (in my opinion, true townies challenge EVERYTHING). Scum defend against said weak cases to protect their partner(s). In other words, I think that it's a nulltell because both sides have equal motive for doing so.

Shanba later gave more reason why he thought it can be a connection between Budja and EK. Why didn't you address that and what do you think of it?

[ZazieR]

Ah Chibo, if you are still here, mind answering if you'd have hammered SoG and why?

[ZazieR]

Not only is he not doing the best job of ridding the suspicion imo, but it feels that he is actively trying hard to rid this suspicion and push it onto others, why would he make this such a priority? By just being a legit town player, everyone else should be able to pick up on this and worry about a possibly mislynch. However, he has to actively fix his reputation for a reason... why? Because he's scum.

I just re-read some more of his posts and found some even more things to be worrisome about... In Shanba's first post, right off the bat (though it is a catch-up post, but still...) he mentions suspicion on 5 different players. Then, when looking at all of his posts, especially considering he mentions how it is scummy to have connections with any other players, he strictly does not mention who he thinks ISN'T scum in any of his posts, and instead only mentions who he is suspicious of. This could easily just be his playstyle which is completely legitimate imo, but with how much he went into detailing the situations for covering other players, I get the feeling that he wants to drill the idea of no connections being a pro-town movement into everyone's minds then act specifically that way so everyone naturally believes he is town.

Regarding the first paragraph: If you think this is scummy, then why didn't you point this out against SoG and Josh?
Gut triggered due to the accusation in the second paragraph.

[ZazieR]

I have a question for you people: what did scum gain by snow_bunny's hammer?

Earlier end of day, meaning less discussion.
Easy target next day if SB/Shanba isn't scum, which I think is the case.

[ZazieR]

Ok, so I think I can give a more realistic representation of SOG's discussion with Zazie over not voting Socio than they can themselves...

I'm going to vote for anyone who votes for someone based on having an unreadable color.

I vote SOG for having a

readable

color.

SOG, you don't find that scummy?

No, it's perfectly OK, since he voted for the opposite reason I mentioned.

But it's still a vote based on color, which is in the same ballpark as what you mentioned.

But it's not the same, so I don't find it scummy.

But shouldn't you find it scummy, since it's still a color issue?

No.

Is this basically what SOG and Zazie mean by their arguments?

I hope this helps you both to stop arguing about this, and maybe team up to do some scumhunting

I was more interested in the "why". It seemed as if SoG didn't want the votes as he thought they were useless. The same applies to Socio's and GD's votes. But both didn't get mentioned.

And "team up"?

Well, they had obv played together before, and therefore they now know each other's playstyle and could maybe complement each other's cases better than other players.

"They" as in SoG and me?

[ZazieR]

I have a question for you people: what did scum gain by snow_bunny's hammer?

You really need us to answer this? Ok...

Snow, unless she has some role-revealing role, would not have known that SOG was Jester. If she was scum, which most of us believe she was/you are, scum didn't really "gain" anything. Rather, they lost something they're glad to be rid of; a voter, who could assist in lynching them, and a vocal player (remembering they/y'all had no idea he wasn't scum), who could build up cases against them.

See, the more I think about it, the less I think this really holds. I firmly believe that by that point the semioldguy lynch was inevitable. If this is the case, then surely all the town lost was time. The scum gained, in essence, a slightly shorter day: an advantage, but not one that merits the risk snowbunny is taking by hammering.

This. Which is why the 'no color in vote post' isn't valid in my opinion.

[ZazieR]

*Some of the things zazie said I don't agree with, I wasn't particularly in agreement with his scumlist in post160.

During which read?
And since when is disagreement a scumtell? Because if it is, many players in my games are scum
(Inkt is gone ._.)

I don't understand why zazie is so different in some games -- zazie, can you explain why you either lurk to replacement or go into spam overdrive?

If I can stay uptodate with a game, you'll get 'spam'. If not due to RL, you'll get 'lurky' in which I try to catch up. But I always stall the read as long as possible. Which leads to my replacement most of the time ._. Trying to change that though.
Is this important?

Also, how come you make many statements, but don't address the reasons made by the players about these statements?

[ZazieR]

Regarding this post from Elvis:
-I think both would want to lynch the jester, but townies more. The jester is a distraction for the town which is useful for a lynch and it's still a free lynch for the scum.
-SoG was acting scummy.
-His strategy was to attack players for reasons that would make him look scummy.

Why didn't you answer questions 1 and 3?

[ZazieR]

I said 5 posts because I wanted to see how he would respond. If he spammed 5 posts, then I'd know he was in a rush to get the votes off me. If he made 5 content-filled posts, I'd view him as more pro-town. If he make 5 semi-spammy posts, I'd count that as a point against him. In giving him more freedom in how to respond, I gain more information.

Why did I leave SoG's second vote out of my analysis... Because I didn't notice it, maybe? I am human, y'know.

SoG was mainly focusing on you, you were mainly focusing on him. Congratulations, we're back to square one. Oh, and you mentioned other people every now and then, but nothing even kind of significant.

In response to the bit about Josh, you still wanted more content from Josh when you unvoted. Which you haven't explained yet why you did that.
You missed the second vote? In Post 256, I give two links to the posts where SoG voted me. In Post 257, you state that SoG's

first

vote was possibly a pressure vote. Explanation?
Of course I mentioned SoG the most in my posts. He was my top suspect? However, I did point most (If not everything) out that struck me as scummy from other players.

Can't say why that post activated my gut. It just did

[ZazieR]

Unvote

as promised. But I still want more content.

@Snow Bunny:

1) To me, vote patterns (how much you vote) are null-tells. You can vote for one person because you find them the scummiest, or you can vote for multiple because you believe in pressure voting.

2) Did you read my bit on SoG's hypocrisy? If so, what do you think about it?

3) Not necessarily stretching. Pointing FoSes without votes down suggests a fear to have to explain a vote.

4) Self-preservation isn't scummy either. If you are a townie and are trying to avoid being lynched, defending yourself and starting a bandwagon against someone else is preventing a mislynch, which is pro-town.

You voted Josh for more content, but here you unote him, eventhough you want more content? Yep, needs some explanations.

And why did you respond before SoG did?

But did I ask for posts or content? Hmm...

You asked for posts

[ZazieR]

The case against me is as follows:

Unspecified Snow_bunny scumminess
Snow_Bunny's hammer
I'm buddying up to chamber
I used a scumtell that EK and others disagree with
I've laid out too much detail on who I think is scum and not enough on who I think is town?

+Bunny Being replaced for no apparent reason.

Is her allignment revealed in the games she did stay?

[ZazieR]

No comments on my catch-up post?



I worked so hard.

Well, I did ^.^ (At least, the part aimed at me)

[ZazieR]

Scummy:
Pome
*Generally does nothing, her posts amount to active lurking as she says nothing in them

She explained that as being caused be school and religion. I started to press her on it and she explained that she had a lot on her plate with her holidays. Which is believable.

Active Lurking isn't the same as Lurking.

[ZazieR]

Will continue my catching up tomorrow

[ZazieR]

Mod - I'll be V/LA from tuesday (tomorrow) till thursday

[ZazieR]

EBWOP

However it was true that next to his post all he said was that he wanted a different wagon to start, which I didn't really get.

Then wasn't it a trap (In the case of you not seeing Post 287)?
Either he would keep the answer you had seen of wanting to start a different wagon or he'd change his reason. Both would have been scummy to you.
In the case of you having seen Post 287, it's scummy that you've voted him.

(Page 16, so I've got a lot to catch up with...
I also need to do some cleaning, so I'll be back later.)

[ZazieR]

Sorry, I have been sick the past couple days, just caught up.

So SoG is at L-1?

Tell me SoG, what is your reasoning for voting Pomegranate? Make it a good one.

This was all you had to ask after your read?
Before the last few posts of the day, you were wondering why so many players were voting SoG. The reasons got stated, and you don't address them. You only ask SoG for the Pome vote. Why didn't you give a comment about the SoG case(s)?

I either agreed or were simply content with what I had read. I don't need to comment on every single thing. I also wanted to be careful with my questioning at that point since SoG was at L-1, taking things a step at a time. It just so happens that question was the first on my mind.

First of all, SoG wasn't at L-1 at that time. So this excuse is gone when you found out about this.
Please state the arguments against SoG you agreed with and why

[ZazieR]

SoG I think you're trying too hard to push for a wagon on someone else. I don't think thats deserving tbh.

Vote: semioldguy

Please elaborate on the reason.

Partially from

his response to what I mentioned in this post

, part from

the reading I caught up on as mentioned in the last post

, and also to put pressure on Snow_Bunny, the plan that I already explained earlier. I wanted to see how she would react with the potential power to hammer. She fell right into my trap. It's SUCH an obvious read.

I GUARANTEE you that Snow_Bunny/Shanba is scum

Please elaborate on the bolded.
And no, Shanba isn't scum.

[ZazieR]

So you would recommend to the town to lynch you immediately if Shanba turns up pro-town, right?

If not, why not. Being that confident in scum or not-scum suggests something more than just a vanilla townie.

Role-fishing is noted.
And why did you bring the bolded up?

[ZazieR]

Maybe all this is just some really really aggressive bussing.

Any reason for thinking this?

[ZazieR]

Let's just compromise and lynch pome.

I support a Pome lynch. Though it seems you don't anymore. Did you think once that she's scum or not?

[ZazieR]

So you would recommend to the town to lynch you immediately if Shanba turns up pro-town, right? If not, why not. Being that confident in scum or not-scum suggests something more than just a vanilla townie.

Gotta trust in how you play the game right? Sure, I'm game. Go for it. I'm just a vanilla townie but I'm confident that I've nailed a scum player here.

Why do you support Nacho's 'suggestion' and why did you claim early?

[ZazieR]

@Pome

Did you check up on Point 2 in Post 308?

I realize I was mistaken, and must have missed it.

Though looking at a later scumlist of yours, Socio is still high on your list as town. Did you include this point this time or not?

[ZazieR]

*Well, he based a somewhat random vote based off of it, so I thought he'd looked at it correctly. Also, I knew it was likely it was a typo, and that's why I asked him. I didn't mean to accuse him; I wanted him to clarify that he hadn't twisted my words.

But you didn't ask

if

I twisted your words; you asked

why

. There's a difference there. I don't find you scummy for it, I'm just pointing it out.

I asked you 'why' because you did. Saying 'if' would imply that you mayor may not had, which wasn't true.

*Well, he based a somewhat random vote based off of it, so I thought he'd looked at it correctly. Also, I knew it was likely it was a typo, and that's why I asked him. I didn't mean to accuse him; I wanted him to clarify that he hadn't twisted my words.

The next game is called: 'Spot the contradiction'. Will you be the next after ZazieR who spots it?

[ZazieR]

EK

- Do you think there's a difference between Pome in this game and Pome in Twilight Mafia (Mini 812)? If so, what?

[ZazieR]

So you would recommend to the town to lynch you immediately if Shanba turns up pro-town, right? If not, why not. Being that confident in scum or not-scum suggests something more than just a vanilla townie.

Gotta trust in how you play the game right? Sure, I'm game. Go for it. I'm just a vanilla townie but I'm confident that I've nailed a scum player here.

I think chibo is telling the truth.

However, please don't claim like this in the future.

I know nacho sort of goaded you into it, but it's not usually so good for the town to claim when you're not being run up to a lynch. It helps scum find power roles if they can narrow the field.

BTW, slight role-fishing tingles from nacho.

Why do you think that chibo's telling the truth? And that was meant to imply scum, not power role...

Why would it suggest scum?

[ZazieR]

Chibo and Nacho have both raised on my scumdar recently, because of the recent exchange. Nacho was pretty wrong to rolefish there (and yes, that's what "more than vanilla" means imo), but Chibo should have called him on it immediately, rather than broadcasting to everyone, "I'M VANILLA GUYSSSSSSS!" Other than that, Chibo just seems like a new player who gets his words twisted around himself sometimes. Automatically adding some tact and wisdom to his posts would greatly benefit town

I don't believe I was rolefishing because I didn't ask for a claim, nor did I infer something was needed. If I was rolefishing, then what was I rolefishing for? A cop with a guilty result or scum, maybe, but that's not really that scummy to me. Secondly, I was pointing out a fact. Copious amounts of confidence suggest knowledge that a vanilla townie shouldn't have. Am I wrong in saying this?

Yes, you are.
Also, why did you point out Chibo's confidence of having found scum, but not mine when I was attacking SoG?

[ZazieR]

Um I tend to believe Chibo because there was no benefit to him doing that as scum, IMO. I just know when I'm scum that I want to leave myself as open-ended as possible so that I can claim whatever I need to if things happen. I wouldn't want to commit to a claim unless I was forced to. Unless it's some kind of gambit, but I don't know what kind of gambit would involve claiming vanilla.

I'm pretty sure that you were a player in Mafia 96. But due to this comment, I'm having doubts about that. So were you a player in that game or not?[/sarcasm]

In other news, Budja is still scum. He hid on easy wagons all D1, and the only original thought he's had all game is voting kirbyoshi, and I think kirby is town.

If Pome can do some scum hunting I'd like to move my vote to Budja.

Serious question: Are you reading this game? Because Budja responded to your accusations of hiding behind easy wagons, yet no comment. How come?

[ZazieR]

I'm not following you zazie...

So what was the point of asking GD WHY he asked the mod if he could change his color? What would this indicate to you either way?

And I still don't understand the "semi" part and why you objected to it and josh lyman. And what have you thought of me since I joined? I've been much more active since taking over the player slot, so that should make it easier for you to judge allignment.

Why I asked GD that: There were some players voting him for a difficult to read colour. Had he asked the mod after all these votes if he could get a different colour, I'd have connected this. But he claims he did it before, so it's not scummy.

As for the 'semi' part:
-It was the same day the game had started and Josh 'semi' random voted a player based upon lurking.
-He was the 11th player to post and 'semi' random voted a player for lurking.

And you're scum.

[ZazieR]

Before anything, Shanba can you please not type in all bold, even if it is a little easier to read. It makes it harder for people to scan and find votes, even if you put bold tags around it, though it comes out as text since your already in bold.

I already explained my vote on SoG. It was to put pressure on Snow_Bunny. I wanted to see if her reasoning for thinking SoG was legit. People vote differently when it's a vote (especially putting them at L-1) and hammering them. I almost wanted to see if she had the guts, believed in her reasoning enough, and would debate about it more before she hammered.

Her hammer post was well... Interesting. I don't like how it turned out. Besides the fact she missed color (which almost everyone has done at some point or other) but it seems to hint at rushing to get that hammer in before someone unvotes. She posted 3 minutes later trying to explain how it was technically me who hammered him also claiming that she didn't realized she hammered him at first, but that's not gonna fly. If she had actually thought about what was going on and read the ~1 page of posts between her two votes, she would know whats going on, and there would also be no need for two posts, the first being rushed imo, which had to be in even 3 minutes before her explanation.

Same policy as the Zazier replacement though, I'm not just gonna let a replacement clear all doubts. If Snow_Bunny acts scummy, with the chance she's scum (her being my #1 suspect right now), then her replacement is scum as well, being Shanba. Shanba is going to have to prove that he's not scum, instead of the opposite (finding reasons to think he's scum) like other players after my scum read on Snow_Bunny.

Vote: Shanba

Zazier seems to be one of the best players here at analyzing the situations and all of the players. What's your take on Snow_Bunny/Shanba concerning Bunnie's fake (accidental) vote on SoG, and her hammering post, and Shanba's reasoning for voting me?

First of all, why didn't you point out these things regarding SB in your first post of the day? You did state that you thought it was scummy, but not this detailed.
Secondly, I don't think you ever addressed SB's reasons for voting SoG. How come and what did you think of them?

At this moment, I'm leaning town on Shanba (Previously SB). Shanba has good accusations and I can see a reason why SB's hammer vote can be explained. Leaving my previous accusations, but compared to arguments against others, she looks better than most of them.
Also, I can see where Shanba is coming from against you as the reason for your vote is weak with reasons explained.

Shanba didn't even introduce himself yet, and I was curious to see what he was going to say first.

Also, I don't have to put every single one of my thoughts all into one giant post at a time, sometimes I split them up into a couple posts to focus on certain ideas or topics.

My vote doesn't seem to be weak with people agreeing with me. I don't think Shanba's explanations have been that good imo.

I do not buy the bolded at all when the player who stated it helds what the one who replaces out did against the one who replaced him/her.
At what is the part in italics aimed?
And why didn't you answer the question about SB's reasons for voting SoG?

[ZazieR]

Yea SOG did play Jester pretty damn well lol.

But all seriousness aside, I'm not buying these posts from Shanba.

I like how he tried to even call Snow_Bunny scummy but claims it's not a problem since he knows the hammer didn't come from a scum player. Since you're declaring yourself as a townie here, mind telling us which one?
It's too convenient to play the whole replacement excuse trying to push all of scum reads on the person he replaced onto that person, and not on the role they shared.

If Snow_Bunny acted scummy (which I think we can agree overall it was a horrendously scummy move), it was because the role Snow_Bunny was playing was a scum role, not because Snow_Bunny was a scummy player.

And the scum role gets passed onto the replacement, Shanba.

Rolefishing.
Also, how did you come to that conclusion? (see the bolded)

He started it by saying he was town. It's simple for any mafia member to just say "oh hey look I'm town." What he said had no base and could be explained further, or he could choose not to explain it further if he pleases. People don't have to answer every question. Sometimes not answering a question can give the questioner the response he/she wanted.

Would there have been a difference in the way you're attacking Shanba if he had claimed a powerrole or a townie? If so, what and how?

We all know the scummy read from SB, but we have to ask ourselves, do you think she would have acted in such a way (the quick rush hammer) if she was not scum? No. She definitely would have not. It was such a huge slipup that it dead obvious.

Disagreed.

[ZazieR]

Chibo

- In one of the games on a different site, did you learn what rolefishing is?

[ZazieR]

Chibo

- As you claim you didn't want to lynch SoG D1, who was your prefered player to lynch?

[ZazieR]

Zazier, why exactly do you believe Shanba isn't scum? Do you think his reasonings (posts) this day are just legitimately good?

Even though all mafia gained from the SoG lynch (besides them voting for someone they knew wasn't another mafia member and potentially town) was more time. SB joined not too long ago (1 month, 4 days ago) and I would think it's a very common noob scum tactic to instantly hammer whoever is not scum when the opportunity arises. Perhaps it was her first time in a scum role?

It's a combination between gut, Shanba's posts and the bandwagon against Shanba.

As for your second paragraph, disagreed. I'd say that newbie scum would be more careful with their votes.

[ZazieR]

ooh, I've managed to slightly shock shanba.

Noted that this was the only thing you had to say in response to Post 345

Humorous, considering:

Wow, I think this is the first post I disagree with Socio.

Noted that this was the only thing you had to say in response to Post 337.

Note the difference before comparing two things:
In the Shanba/EK situation, EK asked for clarification for something Shanba asked of her. Shanba gives this in Post 345. And all what EK said, was that.
In the Socio/Zazie situation, I disagree with something. If you had asked for the reasons why, which you can already find in other posts of mine, you would have gotten them again.

If correct, everybody has posted after the lynch. So I'm curious:
How come nobody asked what a jester is and how it already won?

This question should be answered in this queue:
First - Chibo and Nacho
Second - GD and Kirby
Third - Pome, Socio and Budja.

Doesn't matter when you answer, as long as the those mentioned before your group answered before your group.

I refuse to answer that question based on that it is dumb.

When this game, and a different one of ours, have been completed, we'll talk about stubbornness.
You may think it's dumb, it might give us information. So please answer.

I agree with EK in that this was not necessary, and also a bit scummy, but I don't like her last sentence. Why do you think this, EK?

I don't think shanba is obvtown or anything. But the fact that chibo seems to be rolefishing hard makes me think shanba

may

be town. You know, that he's the victim of rolefishing-scum-chibo.

Perhaps Chobo is too new to know otherwise.

Seems this isn't the case as he just pointed out he has played before. Thoughts about his rolefishing?

Playing a few games is different than knowing what to do in them. Knowing a few roles is different than knowing how to play them.

Mod

- Is Chibo allowed to link to his games at a different site where he plays mafia games that are still ongoing?

[ZazieR]

If correct, everybody has posted after the lynch. So I'm curious:
How come nobody asked what a jester is and how it already won?

This question should be answered in this queue:
First - Chibo and Nacho
Second - GD and Kirby
Third - Pome, Socio and Budja.

Doesn't matter when you answer, as long as the those mentioned before your group answered before your group.

I don't understand the question.

Why didn't you ask what a jester is and why it had already won?

[ZazieR]

zazie, your posting is really rubbing me the wrong way how you seem to ask about stuff that is in some cases seems really obvious, and in others seems completely inconsequential.

It's making me not even want to answer anything that you've written because I have to sift through so much stupid stuff.

Well, you do know that there is 'stupid stuff' among it and you know I answered your question. Meaning you did go through some posts, perhaps through all.
Add how you were complaining that nobody commented on your catch up post, making you lazy, hypocrite scum.

P.S. Try using Ctrl + f and type EK. It will become your best friend.

[ZazieR]

Perhaps EK is successfully buddying up to me (but why do that when she could simply get me lynched instead) but I'm going very cold on thinking she is scum. I'm cooling on chibosempai too. I may need to give this game another once over.

Unvote, Vote: budja

Reasons?

[ZazieR]

lol, but I was actually talking about Shanba saying I'm buddying to him. I don't know why he would do that if he's scum.

I could see slight motivations.

Like?

[ZazieR]

And where was my analysis again? I'm not a player that worries on every single thing everyone else says; when I search for a reason to vote to lynch someone, I find a good reason. Any person can look scummy if you try hard enough to make him to, and being hung up on one or two words in a person's post is the perfect way to.

And you commenting other player's scumminess is NOTHING if you don't follow up with it.

Then why not bring it up later, when you've found the reason of your gut feeling? You're basically screaming at the scum "HEY! Watch out, I might be getting a bit suspicious of you..." or "By the way, I have my suspicions on so-and-so but can't explain them... Mind doing the hard work for me?". Bringing up gut feelings is a useless move as town unless you have something behind them.

If the bolded is aimed at me, stop the lies again. Do I need to give examples where I thought somebody was scummy, pointed out why and kept questioning his/her responses till I got what I wanted?

As for the second paragraph, disagreed.

[ZazieR]

If correct, everybody has posted after the lynch. So I'm curious:
How come nobody asked what a jester is and how it already won?

This question should be answered in this queue:
First - Chibo and Nacho
Second - GD and Kirby
Third - Pome, Socio and Budja.

Doesn't matter when you answer, as long as the those mentioned before your group answered before your group.

I don't understand the question.

Why didn't you ask what a jester is and why it had already won?

Because, though I'd never played a game including a jester before this one, I'm familiar with the role.

How?

[ZazieR]

Unvote

as promised. But I still want more content.

@Snow Bunny:

1) To me, vote patterns (how much you vote) are null-tells. You can vote for one person because you find them the scummiest, or you can vote for multiple because you believe in pressure voting.

2) Did you read my bit on SoG's hypocrisy? If so, what do you think about it?

3) Not necessarily stretching. Pointing FoSes without votes down suggests a fear to have to explain a vote.

4) Self-preservation isn't scummy either. If you are a townie and are trying to avoid being lynched, defending yourself and starting a bandwagon against someone else is preventing a mislynch, which is pro-town.

You voted Josh for more content, but here you unote him, eventhough you want more content? Yep, needs some explanations.

And why did you respond before SoG did?

But did I ask for posts or content? Hmm...

You asked for posts

Exactly... >.>

I asked for posts, he gave me posts. So I kept my word...

Why Josh? I looked through and saw a minimal amount of content from Josh. Posts? Sure. Content? No

Another game of 'Spot the Contradiction'. Who will win after ZazieR?

[ZazieR]

Pome, good job! I really like that list.

I'm sure I should care about reasons, like nacho just said, but I'm really just excited because it seems very reasonable.

unvote Pome, vote budja

EK

, next time, make it a better reason if you need a reason to unvote your scumbuddy.
You asked for scumhunting! Scumhunting involves reasons. If you disagree, why?

Also, why did you vote Budja? And state your reasons. If you want to be lazy scum again, link to a post if you have already stated these reasons.

[ZazieR]

Scumlist:

***Scummy-
1) Budja- Don't feel like we've gotten much from him D2 so far. His first main post D2 was a lame vote on Kirby, in post 351. His next main post, 408looked big and full of quoted, but didn't really contain much info; it was just Budja stating some obvious things and defendimg himself. Those were the only two posts he made so far D2 that had any content.

2) ZazieR- I personally had no problem with chamber's playstyle, but Zazie's bothering me now. She's asking a lot of pointless questions, the worst of which was stated in post 418- if I didn't know what a jester was, couldn't I just go look it up on the wiki? I don't understand 420either. He made a lot of posts on page 19, but I didn't feel that there was any actual scumhunting going on.

5) Nachomamma8- I have a fairly neutral read on him. His posts enough make sense, but I don't see thatmany/that much content in them. I disagree with him about Chibo's rolefishing. I agree with his post 483.

These are the main ones. First of all, you're hypocrite scum. If we had to name players who have posted little content, your name would be included.
Secondly, both Nacho and Budja state that they have little content. Why is one neutral and the other your main suspect?
Third, why no vote on Budja when your reason for finding him suspicious has been present a very long time?

About me, I have my reason for asking the jester-question. I'll elaborate on it when everybody has answered it of those I have asked to answer it. And the same goes for my other questions. You may not see it, but I have my reasons for asking each question. If you don't understand why, ask. But to not do so and then classify them as scummy, is scummy.
As for Page 19, yes, little scumhunting there. Doesn't take away Pages 17 and 18 which contained posts made on the same day as those on Page 19 or all the other pages with posts that contained scumhunting.

[ZazieR]

I'm going to give Budja's replacement a day or two.

EK: If I was his scumbuddy, why would I put him at the top of my list anyway? I could just vote for Zazie or Shanbe, based on their scumminess.

You've never heard of distancing/bussing?

[ZazieR]

I seriously forgot.

You forgot? Eventhough you didn't like his vote against Kirby?
Even when Shanba voted Budja?
Even when EK mentioned switching from you to Budja?

[ZazieR]

In light of waiting for Budja's replacement, I'll go ahead and vote the other main contender for numba one scum.

Unvote
Vote:ZazieR

Lets see where this takes us.

Reasons?

[ZazieR]

Also, I'm not liking all this favoritism of me.
I'm not used to playing in game where every player isn't attacking me at some point.
People should start making cases on me.
I find it easier to read those that are attacking me.

If so, then why didn't you mention this during D1 where many also saw you as town?

[ZazieR]

Attempt?

Does that mean it isn't working??

I'm very wary of a player, who, right after I make a point that I get better reads from people that actively attack me, you go and make a deliberate direct attempt to do the exact opposite.
Sarcasm or not, you haven't made a single comment about me that hasn't been either directly or indirectly positive.
Quite scummy for being so certain of my alignment.

Pom is just as bad as well, except she hasn't been around to post as much in general, but I've got my eye on her as well.

Don't understand this post. Can you elaborate?

[ZazieR]

There was an aspect of Zazier's back and forth with nachomamma that interested me and I want to go check it out

Have you done so?

[ZazieR]

I seriously forgot.

You forgot? Eventhough you didn't like his vote against Kirby?
Even when Shanba voted Budja?
Even when EK mentioned switching from you to Budja?

I bet you won't listen to my answer anyway, but yes. It took a while to make that post, and I wasn't thinking about votes.

Then what were you thinking about?

[ZazieR]

Because, as of now, no one seems scummy enough to warrant my vote. Budja is my top subject, but he hasn't even replaced in yet. And before you ask why I find him scummy, it's because he was scumhunting less than everyone else in the game, and when he voted, it was always after someone else had voted for that same person, and he never actually added anything to the cases other people made, so it seemed to me like he was just trying to skate along...

Then why didn't you vote him earlier?
Also, this was the reason why you voted him the first time, yet his explanation was worth an unvote. What changed?

[ZazieR]

Failure to scum hunt is usually a sign of scumminess,

but a lot of people are doing it this game

which makes it harder to find the scum. So if everyone who is town could get their asses in gear and start giving their opinions and pressuring who they think is scum, that would make things much easier. It will force the scum to post more too which will increase our chances of catching them in lies/manipulation/misdirection. Or if they continue to post little content we can lynch them for that too. Either way works for me.

Name them

[ZazieR]

Shanba, honestly, you could warp that no matter what words I used in that situation. I used an objective marker so I could quite literally force him to post more; in asking for more content, I could've guaranteed I would have been ignored. I'm a bit confused as to why this is so scummy, but... meh.

It's not the words you used, as such. It's that you were trying to get him to do something (i.e. post content) but despite the fact he didn't do it, you unvoted. And this is because you put down such rigid criteria. I reckon I might be getting upset over nothing, but such inconsistencies always draw my attention: I still don't understand

why

you would use objective criteria at all in such a context.

This is what I was trying to say.

[ZazieR]

Post 531
I don't see it as a slip and as we don't know the reason behind SB replacing out, I won't join the speculation with you and EK.

[ZazieR]

I don't much like the idea of Chibo's trap. I could see the motivation as scum, as well as the reasoning as town. I see it as slightly scummy, but generally a null-tell, as both town and scum attempt "traps".

If the reason for SB replacing out is because she made a dumb move as scum, she did the wrong thing. I think of that as indecent. I don't see any real town motivation for hammering, especially for trying to shift the blame to someone else.

As Budja is not replaced yet, I will

Vote: Shanba

. I'm still waiting to hear what Budja's replacement has to say.

Why Shanba?

[ZazieR]

oh my god, that was so much to read, i skimmed through alot of it. But i find it scummy that Snow_Bunny is playing in another game with me, but replaced out of this one after people go after her for hammering.

Vote: Shanba

Anything else you want to say?

[ZazieR]

how can you be so sure that shanba is scum. I mean i agree her role from snow bunny is suspicious but i am not 100% sure she is scum because of that. The only way you can be so sure is if either you are his scum partner or you are a cop and investigated him. otherwise there is no way to be so sure...

Yep, you skimmed.
The same thing against you.

[ZazieR]

Post 555
Regarding the hammer, didn't you state earlier that you could see a reason how the hammer could have been accidental? What happened to that?
And why didn't you point out the last paragraph sooner?

[ZazieR]

Nice analysis Shanba, after that post im getting a sense that you are a townie because i dont believe a scum would be that detailed about their opinions of everyone. This doesnt mean I agree with all that you said, but alot of it seems valid. Also, could i have a description of what Budja has done to seem so scummy? I read most of this thread and other then lurking alot i didnt notice alot of scumtells, but i could have skimmed over them.

Also, I am disappointed with Nachomamma this game. I have played one other game with him with him as town and he was extremely active and very informative about his thoughts. He was also very aggressive with scum hunting. This game seems like polar opposites....

Unvote, Vote: NachoMamma

Why didn't you point the part about Nacho out earlier?
Also, link to that game?

[ZazieR]

I am not voting shanba.

I decided.

Reasoning please?

Also, don't people realize what is going on? The extreme analysis is more of a scumtell than anything to me. Fact, it is generally considered to be a towntell if you analyze a lot trying to really rule out the scum.

Fact, Shanba needs to appear as town as possible to get this suspicion off of him (ESPECIALLY if hes scum). So would a regular townie go all out in such an insanely long post like that? I really don't think so. I feel it was almost forced that he had to do something like that, almost like he's trying to act so town to convince people otherwise. It's a great thing to analyze things as they happen, find out what's going on, decipher actions, etc. But I almost feel like part of this is for the shock value of seeing so much. It doesn't change anything for me.

Yes, he would.
Question: If you thought you'd be lycnhed and you're town, what would you do?

[ZazieR]

I seriously forgot.

You forgot? Eventhough you didn't like his vote against Kirby?
Even when Shanba voted Budja?
Even when EK mentioned switching from you to Budja?

I bet you won't listen to my answer anyway, but yes. It took a while to make that post, and I wasn't thinking about votes.

Then what were you thinking about?

The scumlist. It took a

long

time. It slipped my mind.

Then when did you start with it?

[ZazieR]

Post 623 isn't aimed at you. You'd have known that had you clicked the link.
Post 621 isn't only about the Shanba wagon. It's in general. Was that all you had to say after reading this game?
As for Post 622, your post looked almost exact like a post another player had made. What I wrote at that one, goes for you as well (The fishing is scummy)

[ZazieR]

Vote Pome

[ZazieR]

And where was my analysis again? I'm not a player that worries on every single thing everyone else says; when I search for a reason to vote to lynch someone, I find a good reason. Any person can look scummy if you try hard enough to make him to, and being hung up on one or two words in a person's post is the perfect way to.

And you commenting other player's scumminess is NOTHING if you don't follow up with it.

Then why not bring it up later, when you've found the reason of your gut feeling? You're basically screaming at the scum "HEY! Watch out, I might be getting a bit suspicious of you..." or "By the way, I have my suspicions on so-and-so but can't explain them... Mind doing the hard work for me?". Bringing up gut feelings is a useless move as town unless you have something behind them.

If the bolded is aimed at me, stop the lies again. Do I need to give examples where I thought somebody was scummy, pointed out why and kept questioning his/her responses till I got what I wanted?

As for the second paragraph, disagreed.

Don't be so paranoid.

Also, why do you disagree? For the hell of it?

Nope, I have my reason. No point in telling as it would lose its purpose due to that.
If it wasn't aimed at me, then what was the point of the bolded?

[ZazieR]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12091

There's that link you wanted.

Will look at it some other time.
But do you agree with what Yankee said about the way you play this game and in the game you linked and why?

[ZazieR]

Post 633 (Not a fan of quote pyramids)
Anyway, yes, there is. You state that you asked for posts, so that it would lead to more content. But in the second quote, you state that you see posts, but no content (before Josh gave the (almost) five posts).

[ZazieR]

I seriously forgot.

You forgot? Eventhough you didn't like his vote against Kirby?
Even when Shanba voted Budja?
Even when EK mentioned switching from you to Budja?

I bet you won't listen to my answer anyway, but yes. It took a while to make that post, and I wasn't thinking about votes.

Then what were you thinking about?

The scumlist. It took a

long

time. It slipped my mind.

Then when did you start with it?

I don't exactly understand the question, but I recall that I did it over the course of a few sittings.

What do you mean with sittings?

[ZazieR]

Zazie -- do you think she has played differently this game from twilight?

No, but the tone is very different. I got at least the impression she was trying to scumhunt at Twilight.
Here, she sounds fake.

[ZazieR]

At least Shanba sees my point against Nacho.
Also, according to my dictionary:
Sitting - zittingsperiode, vaste plaats in de kerk, broedsel.

Bonus question for our quiz:
Which of these three fits Pome's given definition?
I vote D: None of them

[ZazieR]

Maybe all this is just some really really aggressive bussing.

Any reason for thinking this?

Chibo's overconfidence and Shanbo's scuminess.

If correct, everybody has posted after the lynch. So I'm curious:
How come nobody asked what a jester is and how it already won?

This question should be answered in this queue:
First - Chibo and Nacho
Second - GD and Kirby
Third - Pome, Socio and Budja.

Doesn't matter when you answer, as long as the those mentioned before your group answered before your group.

I refuse to answer that question based on that it is dumb.

When this game, and a different one of ours, have been completed, we'll talk about stubbornness.
You may think it's dumb, it might give us information. So please answer.

See, the thing is, scum get very uneasy when you keep things from them. So stubbornness can be very protown. Especially when scum keep asking you one particular question over and over again that is irrelevant to anything other than their own personal motivations. Its foolish to try to ignore the information gained from responses to stubbornness.

But wait...why I'm I explaining this to YOU of all people? You are the one that posted this to try and save your own ass from who you replaced:

Regarding unexplained votes:

Did you know that unexplained votes are the best things ever?
A few underlying principles:
1) Players -- especially when scum -- like to be comfortable. Bringing pressure that is difficult to respond to pulls them out of their comfort zones, making them react in a way they normally wouldn't react. This makes it significantly more likely that they will say or do something particularly telling of their alignments.
2) In the long-term, players often reveal the most about themselves when acting on limited information. While this maxim generally applies to the notion that D1 and D2 are the most revealing parts of a mafia game, it also applies when dealing with "unexplained votes."
2a) Let's look at the general case of an unexplained vote from a player of unknown alignment. The motivation for a protown player is to discern the intent of the voter, generally in order to obtain their alignment. The motivation of an anti-town player is to discern the intent of the voter (which sometimes involves seeking alignment) and to best utilize the situation to their advantage. There is an important, if subtle, difference. By cultivating our exploration of these differences, we can find new tools to seek and destroy the scumbaggoes amongst us.
2b) Now consider the case where I am a confirmed protown player making an unexplainded vote. In this case, my motivation is very clear. In some way, I am seeking to find scum. Here, I'm actually going to dip into one of my trade secrets and note that protown players tend to have a broader picture of our voter's intent, whereas scums tend to focus more on themselves (or, sometimes, their allies). If the person I'm voting is more concerened with how everyone else reacts than with deflecting my attack, they are usually more likely to be protown. If they immediately seek to bury someone else in accusations, wildly reject my vote/claims outright, or blame-shift, they're more likely to be scum.
3) Taking an alternate approach to scumhunting allows one to take advantage of "weak points" in other players' gameplay. Most mafia is played in the public arena. Players openly debate and discuss who is scum and why. Thus, most people tend to focus most of their attention on growing and evolving as players in this realm of open banter. A couple years ago, I learned that the vast majority of players didn't know how to react to certain circumstances. One such circumtsance was a completely irrational, yet intensely focused onslaught from an established player. This was a very noticeable chink in the mafia community's collective armor, and while you had your Internet Strangers and your Baby Jesuses (the paragons of this style of play), people who effectively played without explanation were very few and far between. Thus, very few players put the necessary time, thought, and effort into ensuring that they new how to interact with these playstyles. Over time, parts of the community evolve, and playing such playstyles shifts and changes just as the overall game meta does. Not only do they not know how to react, and not only do they give more information about themselves, but their weaknesses are actually exploitable, allowing the attacker as an individual to crack other players' shells and expose their soft, fleshy interiors, thus opening the game up for everybody.

Funny how you post that and clearly don't believe in it.

As for the 'WHATS A JESTER?' question...sure, I'll humor you...

When I first found this site, I read large chunks of it even before making an account. I read the wiki, I read games, I read mafia discussion. I knew what 90% of the roles (including uncommon ones, not including the scumchat ones) that existed, and knew how they all functioned.

My first game on the site people refused to believe that I was not an alt because of how I carried about myself. ICs in my newb game though that I was the one that was inexperience challenged. This applied to the more social parts of the site, consider the background that I knew about the players themselves.

And thats how something as simple as 'WHATS A JESTER?' is no more different than you asking this to me:
'WHATS A MAFIA GOON? HOW DID YOU KNOW HOW THEY WIN?'
Not everyone is as oblivious as you, or as least, tries to appear to be.

In light of waiting for Budja's replacement, I'll go ahead and vote the other main contender for numba one scum.

Unvote
Vote:ZazieR

Lets see where this takes us.

Reasons?

'UNEXPLAINED VOTES ARE THE BEST THINGS EVER!' as your quote goes.

But the reasons I'm voting you include the fact that you are a chronic lurker, feign ignorance on the simplest of things, and actually post very little in terms of your own opinions.

You mask your non-contributions with spam and questions.
80% of the things you say are questions.
People don't learn YOUR stances when all you do is question others.
Its good to hide behind that as opposed to posting content.
You sit back and relax because you focus on making others post content themselves while not doing the same.

A good gameplay experiment would be to compile all of your posts together in one post, and leave out anything that is either asking a question, or directly quoting others, and to see how long (or short) that would be. Not saying anyone should actually DO that though.

Also, I'm not liking all this favoritism of me.
I'm not used to playing in game where every player isn't attacking me at some point.
People should start making cases on me.
I find it easier to read those that are attacking me.

If so, then why didn't you mention this during D1 where many also saw you as town?

D1 is a different kind of monster.

Attempt?

Does that mean it isn't working??

I'm very wary of a player, who, right after I make a point that I get better reads from people that actively attack me, you go and make a deliberate direct attempt to do the exact opposite.
Sarcasm or not, you haven't made a single comment about me that hasn't been either directly or indirectly positive.
Quite scummy for being so certain of my alignment.

Pom is just as bad as well, except she hasn't been around to post as much in general, but I've got my eye on her as well.

Don't understand this post. Can you elaborate?

Up to that point, and somewhat part that, she has buddied me all game. Even after pointing out that she has buddied me all game. I was noting that as things I said I do. I attack everyone, and get conclusions based on such. Just like I encourage people to attack me.




I'm happy with my vote placement.

It's actually interesting that you agree with the quote from Glork, yet you did vote Chamber.
Anyway, no, stubbornness isn't always pro-town. You have learned why already and as said, we'll discuss that later. Choosing to not answer a question isn't pro-town.
As for your 'funny' thing you pointed out, it's called playing style. I choose to post reasons. Doesn't mean that I disagree with not posting reasons.
Invalid comparison noted regarding the Jester question.
And then come the reasons for him voting me. Which is now just based upon policy. Which is again interesting when these reasons have been present for a long time already, yet you never pointed them out. Also, you stated that you wanted to see my defence against the accusations against me. You're not gonna comment on that?
I do post content. My questions show where my suspicions lie and I explain the suspicions behind them as well. I also comment on the responses given to them if needed. And I'm pretty sure I've stated many times who I think is scum and why.

[ZazieR]

Noticed this gem amidst the flurry of crap:

Pome, good job! I really like that list.

I'm sure I should care about reasons, like nacho just said, but I'm really just excited because it seems very reasonable.

unvote Pome, vote budja

EK

, next time, make it a better reason if you need a reason to unvote your scumbuddy.
You asked for scumhunting! Scumhunting involves reasons. If you disagree, why?

Also, why did you vote Budja? And state your reasons. If you want to be lazy scum again, link to a post if you have already stated these reasons.

Are you calling me scum?

I asked for a scumlist actually, and that's what she gave me. Yes reasons are helpful and I do want them, but her list really jived with my thinking. It made me think she was townier.

As to my buja vote... READ THE THREAD.

Budja
*Guy is on every bandwagon, and in a scummy way, like he's taking the easy way out and voting easy targets. Page 1 greendude racism wagon. Chamber hatewagon. SoG jesterwagon. He gets on these easy wagons without even doing any hard work or attacking.
*Also he said "null" on Pome's horrible waffle scumlist post.

Yes, I'm calling you scum.
You should have known that already. Also, will you now comment on all my stuff aimed at you? Or will you keep being lazy scum?
As for you Pome vote:

If Pome can do some

scum hunting

I'd like to move my vote to Budja.

I asked for Budja. Especially as he commented on it and you''ve ignored his explanation fully.
Also, disagreement isn't a scumtell.

[ZazieR]

POP QUIZ: When does the deadline end?

Answer: In two days. Closest person to lynch is Shanba at 4 votes, then Yankee at 2. Take's 6 to kill...

Unvote, Vote: ChiboSempai

I want him to die because he's too confident to be scum.

I wouldn't mind Pome dying because EK's reasons are sound.

I wouldn''t mind Shanba dying because that's the only lynch I could honestly see us putting into action today.

Regarding Pome, EK stated she thinks Pome is acting townier. So what's up with what you said?

Also, with this said, I prefer lynching Pome. I'll only switch at deadline if needed.

[ZazieR]

Is it not possible to combine all your thoughts into one post please? So annoying having like 4-10 posts in a row everytime you post. Also, I dont believe Shanba is Scum, i think people are just anxious to get to day 2 and are starting to vote the person with most votes.

It's possible. However, it's my playstyle for a reason.

[ZazieR]

I am now willing to lynch zazie.

I take this as you're going to continue to be lazy scum.
Reasons behind this statement?