Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[ZazieR]

Ok, I'm gonna look over the given suggestions of this day. But I've seen that Qf3 has a lot of support. I haven't read why yet, but from the look of that last bord given, it would give the rook on the f-line a lot of freedom. I don't see why we want that. It would result into a giant attack on the knight, which only the rook and the queen can protect. The rook is easy for black to take down, leaving two black pieces (the queen and the rook) to attack the knight with only the defence from the queen. Leading into a knight win for black or a knight and queen with as return a rook.
The other option would be to get the knight into safety, which would lead into a giant battle among the pawn at f4. And again, black seems to win that as they would have 4 pieces to attack, while we can only defend with 3 pieces (once again, the rook that is now at e6 can't do a thing).

Either this line of thinking is wrong, or I'm not seeing something that you are seeing.

tl;dr
In my opinion, Qf3 will lead into a lot of destruction at the least. At most, we'll lose.

[ZazieR]

P.S. I'm from the Netherlands, so I'm not sure if I have used the correct names for the pieces
If I'm correct, they are:
pawn, knight, bishop, rook, Queen and King.

[ZazieR]

First move, Rhe1.
I'm not in favor of it. As pointed out by IH, rook will go to f8, resulting into an attack from the black queen against the knight. Either a defence from h4 (resulting into fxg3 for the bishop to attack and/or an opening for the black rook), a defence from the rook (which results into a bishop - rook loss), doing nothing and let him hit (resulting into an attack around f4 again) or we leave (resulting into a battle around f4 as well)
So the only move that might be useful is the defence from the rook. And even that one is bad.

[ZazieR]

Rf1 is for now my favorite.
It gives us a defence against a possible battle around f4. And if played correct, we can play Qf3 later without the reasons why I think it's bad stated before.

[ZazieR]

...My response for Rf8 was responding to Rhe1. Anyways,

Rf1 Rf8 h4.

Why h4?

[ZazieR]

Another move suggested was Kd1.
And again, Rf8 is a great move for black to do.
See the reasons what our options are when the knight gets attack in post 1189.
Though due to Kd1, we can have the opening better.
So I can support this move.

[ZazieR]

h4 hurts us big time after fxg3

Rhe1 Rf8
Rh6 for a killer attack

Uhm, what?
Can you explain this in more detail as I don't get what you are saying here.

[ZazieR]

I don’t really see the point of moving the h-rook. 25. Rf1 is disastrously bad: after 25… Rh6, we can’t protect against all of 26… Qxg5, Rxe6, and Rxh2+. And I don’t see any “killer attack” after 25. Rhe1 Rf8 26. Rh6. What I do see is 26… Qxg5 27. Rxd6 (am I missing something better?) fxg3+ threatening 28…gxh2. Still looking at 25. Reh1 Rf8 26. h4, but don’t see anything obviously good here.

Uhm, it's been a while since I've last played chess. So it's possible that my assumption is wrong here, but at the dots is what should be our move, right?
If so, I don't see what your problem is with Rf1.

[ZazieR]

Rhe1, Rxe6
Nxe6, Qf6
Qf3,

Made a change. Opinions?
So one question, if we do Rhe1, why would black want to trade rooks, instead of doing a different move?

[ZazieR]

g4

Booooyah. We give black the passed pawn, but f3 is a veritable minefield, so I don't see black advancing that bad boy any time soon. g4 prevents black from being able to gain any possible advantages in terms of fxg3 shenanigans. It also allows us to play h4 and continue our onslaught on black's kingside.

Errr...damnit. Never mind. I think this move fails to Rxe6.

I don't get this one. Why wouldn't black do f3? If our queen hits the pawn, wouldn't the bishop come into play at f4? Queen can't hit him or we'll lose her. Which means we lose our knight as the king has to leave, and the next move for us, the queen will be attacked. If she doesn't move to e2, we'll also lose our rook at the e-line.

[ZazieR]

Goatrevolt:
I don’t see a response that doesn’t result in them losing at least a pawn. And I would rather not explain which lines lose more and which lose less- and I don’t have the time for anyhow, and we're too close to deadline besides. So I would like to instead make the following statement:

I am confident enough to stand behind Qf3 with my life. That is: if we lose material as a result, then if we later are forced to resort to lynching, I will offer myself as the first lynch.

Can anyone else say that about the move that they are advocating?

In other words, we have to trust you blindly. It's indeed a good move, IF we can first get rid of the rook at the f-line.
Also, that statement doesn't mean a thing.

[ZazieR]

So my preferences:
1) Rf1
2) Kd1
3) Rhe1 - If it can be proven that black will trade the rooks at e6 and f6, I'll switch to this one.
4) Qf3 - Good move, if used later after one of the above three mentioned moves.
5) g4 - Either you are seeing something I'm not seeing or I hope that this was a joke.

Move: Rf1

[ZazieR]

Qxe6. We lose the knight.

Followed by Rxe6?

Will look at what you said about the trade.

[ZazieR]

1) Rhe1, Rf8
2) Rh6, ...

Another attack on the pawn at h7.

Unmove Move Rhe1

[ZazieR]

Meh, wasn't really paying attention. However:
1) Rhe1, Rf8
2) Qf3, Qxg5 (very likely)
3) Rxd6, ...

the black Queen is useless there and a double attack on d5 with only the black Queen defending it. Pawn at f4 can't do a thing either.

[ZazieR]

Ok,

IH

explain this now:

...My response for Rf8 was responding to Rhe1. Anyways,

Rf1 Rf8 h4.

Why h4?

h4 protects the knight from a discovered attack instigated by Black's queen.

The only difference here is that the Rook is not Rf1, but at Re1. But the black rook still went to f8. In your situation, you've proposed h4 to defend our knight against the black queen. But ever since we have the discussion about Rhe1, you haven't mentioned it at all. How come?

[ZazieR]

In other words, you'd agree with Rhe1 if we afterwards do h4, correct?

[ZazieR]

Move h4

[ZazieR]

The main problem is that they are thretening an attack on one of our rooks.

This needs elaboration.

[ZazieR]

Mod

- It seems Sirdanilot has returned. Does this mean he's back in this game or not?

[ZazieR]

Back. Will look at this game tomorrow.

[ZazieR]

Wow, that was a ridiculously long night for what I think was basically a forced move.

Ok, our plan was Nxf7. My "secret" plan was g4 immediately. I'll bold that move tomorrow unless someone sees a problem with it. I don't see much reason to discuss all the consequences at this point unless you see a problem with a line. We should keep all of our threats close to the vest if we can. All they have to miss is one of them.

If someone points out a refutation that is obviously flawed, then don't explain why.

Nxh7>g4
It's that simple. I'll gladly point out why if needed.

Nxh7

[ZazieR]

i don't want to sac the knight now..

it's too early and way too unneccesary.. (at least i assume that you meant Nxh7 not Nxf7)

also, what's your response to 28. Nxh7 Qf7.. none are satisfactory and all stall our attack big time

move: g4

we need to force the issue now

g4 is fail to play at this point. Hint: Black pawn that stands at f4 right now.
Also, explain the bolded part (I know what 'saccing means', I want you to explain how Nxh7 will sac the knight, but g4 won't)

[ZazieR]

Yes, I meant Nxh7 as our previous plan, sorry.

I will stick by my move.

move: Nxh7

Hmmm. Don't you see the superiority of g4?

I'm pretty sure friday comes after wednesday (Days of posts my time). Why haven't you bolded your move, while you said you would?

[ZazieR]

IH, what's your response to Qf7?

Off the top of my head? Ng5

Fixed. No doubt needed.

[ZazieR]

Short summary:
Nxh7 is the winning move. g4 will start a new battle field at a different spot.

[ZazieR]

Giving us the attack. If we do g4, it gives black the attack.
I can see how we can make the perfect attack in this situation.

Also, what happened to not discussing what black can do?

[ZazieR]

the position above is vastly worse than one that would result from g4

You can't see that Nxh5 leads to a white attack, while g4 leads to a black attack?

[ZazieR]

You guys make me sad.

Move: g4

Any reason why you didn't answer my question?
Also, explain why you didn't mention that Veerus showed why he thinks Nxh5 is flawed.

[ZazieR]

Veerus

, why haven't you answered the question in Post 1304?

[ZazieR]

Mod

- Can you prod the third scum, ah(and the numbers that follow)?

[ZazieR]

3. Nxh7 isn't a sac under the line i showed however it is a sac for your purposes since i'm assuming you expect the king to capture the knight (and losing a knight for a pawn is a sac.. and a poor one at that)

Ok, now I understand why you are ignoring my question: Your blind
See what that move leads to.
Also, I don't know if we'll gain material, but Nxh7 leads to a strong attack, which I don't see g4 doing.

[ZazieR]

what's the flaw with the line i showed then? show me how that leads to a stronger attack.. you and your scum-buddies are obviously trying to persuade everyone away from the better move and i would like the rest to see how wrong you are

So that black can look at what to do? Sure
If you can't see how the position in Post 1308 doesn't lead to a win, you're either scum or you need to look better.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR:
Why do you care so much if veerus understands? We don't need unanimity, just a majority.
Also, 9 players = 2 mafia. Why would you think 3?

There are some players absent. So any player that votes Nxh7 is an extra voted, which is good to reach that majority.
When I think of 'mini game' regarding mafia, I think of a twelve-players game with 3 scum. Seems this is one of those exceptions ._.

[ZazieR]

Zazier, forget veerus. You don't have to listen to him - he has no credit in this game anyway. I for one am not interested in veerus' attempt to drag this game down into just another mafia game.

But I want my ego boost

[ZazieR]

Then again, unless the game of chess is going badly, we don't have a reason to hunt for the Blacks.

Which move do you prefer?

[ZazieR]

AA, do you seriously miss that Nxh7 leads to a powerfull attack, while g4 doesn't?

Also, is that all you have to say towards something you don't approve off? And why didn't you do so sooner?

[ZazieR]

The line posted in 1308 is not a very powerful attack at all. Very similar in strength and even position to what will happen after g4, while we have a much better material advantage after g4. It is as simple as that.

Disagreed. Nxh7 can lead to two results, of which both will lead to a powerful attack for white. g4 can lead to may different scenario's, in which the worst leads to material gain, but with no powerful attack left.
I prefer the first.
Also, if played well (Which is very likely to happen) Nxh7 will lead to a better material gain.

[ZazieR]

based on what I can see into each of the moves, I can see the attack that Zaz is thinking of that would actually be pretty good, despite the piece disadvantages. It'd be a good end game position for white and would likely promote a win if played correctly (with very little chance of black successfully retaliating... unless they can see where it is headed as well).

move: Nxh7

assuming black plays as shown by veerus, it's a really good move that's not very obvious at first.

actually pointing out the sequence in question after this would be telling. Put simply:

I agree with

Yos2

Zaz

Even if black doesn't play the move Veerus showed, it has only one other option to save its queen from our knight. Which also has good results for us.

And I like the last sentence ^.^ It makes me sound as a famous player XD

[ZazieR]

based on what I can see into each of the moves, I can see the attack that Zaz is thinking of that would actually be pretty good, despite the piece disadvantages. It'd be a good end game position for white and would likely promote a win if played correctly (with very little chance of black successfully retaliating... unless they can see where it is headed as well).

move: Nxh7

assuming black plays as shown by veerus, it's a really good move that's not very obvious at first.

actually pointing out the sequence in question after this would be telling. Put simply:

I agree with

Yos2

Zaz

Even if black doesn't play the move Veerus showed, it has only one other option to save its queen from our knight. Which also has good results for us.

And I like the last sentence ^.^ It makes me sound as a famous player XD

I thought you were a "famous" scummer?

Also, I was merely examining the move choice made by black in Veerus' line of reasoning. It looks to me as if he doesn't see the options available.

Didn't know that I'm a "famous" scummer O.o

But anyway, Veerus is just trying to discredit the move as he knows how destructive it is

[ZazieR]

Yes, my line isn't the only possible option, but others aren't much better either and some still end up moving g4. If we do it now, we don't provide black with some material cushion for the likely loss of the rook.

How many times does it have to be stated that a powerful attack for white > material gain.
And even if you disagree, Nxh7 can easily lead to a better material gain than g4 can give.

[ZazieR]

Here, thinking not out loud.

Any move you prefer?

[ZazieR]

Also,

Mod

- I'll be LA for a couple of days.

[ZazieR]

Rephrase please?

[ZazieR]

ZazieR:
Take a breath and close your mouth. You're trying to argue an argument that's already been won. If someone has something to say, let them say it- until then, there's no reason to give play advice when only 2 players are objecting.

Sorry, it's just frustrating that we can't play sucg a good move as Nxh7 as the remaining players who can move for it are either objecting or absent.
And there isn't much else to discuss ._.

[ZazieR]

Moderator: Prod everyone who has not posted a move vote until now.

In case the mod wants to hear names

Prod GoatRevolt, Ah2190 and TCS

[ZazieR]

Mod - Still waiting on the prods. And when's deadline?

(Yes, BUMP post)

[ZazieR]

Here. Waiting for one of the following to happen:
-The inactives to become active.
-The Move-hammer for Nxh7.
-The deadline to hit.

[ZazieR]

Prod recieved.

MOVE COUNT

, [french]si vous plait[/french].

And please no French >.<
I'm glad that I don't have to deal with this language anymore. Please let it stay that I don't have to deal with it >.<

[ZazieR]

German is even worse ._.
I was better at French than at German.

[ZazieR]

But I'm not English. (Don't ask me where I'm from though as that language is even closer to German than English >.<)
Also, I have troubles with the German words. French words are easier in my opinion. But grammatica are easy in both languages ^.^ (That was when I studied it... Now, I can't remember what everything is ._. Though I can almost count completely from 1 - 20 in French )

[ZazieR]

Here. Waiting for one of the following to happen:
-The inactives to become active.
-The Move-hammer for Nxh7.
-The deadline to hit.

Or hopefully for someone to think things thru and go for g4.

Not waiting on that to happen.

[ZazieR]

Keep dreaming, Veerus.
But remember: "

De meeste

dromen zijn bedrog"

[ZazieR]

Unofficial Move Count:

g4

(2) - Veerus, AA

Nxh7

(4) - IH, Zazie, Emp, Ray

[ZazieR]

I just want to know where we stand before I vote.

Same here.

Nothing to add at all?

[ZazieR]

I smell the other scum partner amongst the two of you.

In any case, TCS, neither move is L-1, so not much to worry about. If you don't want to vote on a move, at least discuss and debate about Nxh7 v. g4, or throw out new moves if you think you see them.

Agreed with the second paragraph.
Also, if one of Veerus and AA isn't scum, it's very likely ah is scum.

[ZazieR]

yes, as something that wasn't great for white.. but whatever, i guess we'll see how it plays out since it'll obviously win at the deadline

Disagreed. You have 'showed' that Nxh7 doesn't lead to an attack. Would g4 have lead to an attack? Because if it does, I don't see it. Nxh7 does.

[ZazieR]

I am an idiot.

g4 is a better move by far from what I can see. The lack of response to my query regarding Nxh7 Qf7 seems to indicate to me that

we don't have one

.

The more I look at this the more I wonder how this debate is even happening. Nxh7 is aggression for the sake of aggression, with our pieces in shitty position. g4 puts our pieces in better position.

Also in case anyone was wondering, en passant would not be a legal next move for black in the position resulting from g4. I say this because I'm stupid and thought it was, writing g4 off earlier.

move:g4

Two things:
-What better position? The way I see it, Nxh7 continues our attack, while g4 destroys it.
-If I'm correct, you mean with 'your query' the question asked in Post 1383, right? Because if you do, I seriously don't like Post 1387. Only one of the four supporters of Nxh7 posted in between the time frame of the two just mentioned posts. And the one he showed is good. You're trying to discredit Nxh7 based upon three supporters of Nxh7 not posting in between a specific time frame. That doesn't mean that there isn't a countermove present.

[ZazieR]

Rh6 - good response to Qf7, imo.

I like the move, but could you have waited with it? Deadline hits soon with Nxh7 having more support than scumdriven move g4. There was no need to show such a strong attack.

[ZazieR]

Already looked. Won't state anything about it yet though.

[ZazieR]

Veerus, stop proving that you're scum.
No further comment for now in case I might help Veerus-scum.

[ZazieR]

I'm not going to respond, because it only will help black. Veerus is trying to help him and his scumbuddy to let us shout what will happen so that they know what they are up against. Not going to fall for that again.
And TCS, stop proving that you haven't read what has been going on.

[ZazieR]

1. I'm not scum.. if I was, I wouldn't keep trying to find holes in the poor moves that have been suggested by you and co
2. Lack of your (and your buddies') desire to respond to my valid arguments and be content to wait until a worse move is deadlined is textbook scum.. considering you replaced sirdanilot who didn't contribute at all to this game except to make attacks or lurk, you're not convincing me that his (and your) play wasn't scummy
3. Nothing we say can really "help" black at this point. This is chess and there are a few FORCED sequences here after g4, all of which win material in the WORST case. Your suggestions lead down a questionable path with no clear way to secure a comparable advantage. If your line is such a great attack, show us a FORCED sequence that gives us an advantage (like g4 is) and everything will be solved. This "helping scum" routine is, well, scummy and if this game ever gets to the lynch stage, you'll be at the top of my list.

1. You are scum and you're trying to find holes as you know that Nxh7 will be more destructive to you and your scumbuddy than g4.
2. If I was scum, I'd be all over g4 right now. Your argument of me going for the worst move is therefore invalid. The argument about Sirdanilot is also invalid when you look at his posts.
3. Wrong. Make a move. Most of the time, there are different moves you can do in return. This applies to both g4 and Nxh7. By discussing the moves, black can discuss what to do. Take the g4 bord in Post 1394. Do you really think that black will think at night?:
'Oh, look. A bord that shows how white can gain an advantage. Let's do exactly what they showed.'
Even you and your scumbuddy aren't that stupid. Instead, they will know what the plan can be when white players will discuss it and think of countermove(s) during the night. Without discussing, they don't know what will follow.
And as Emptyger luckily said:

ZazieR:
Take a breath and close your mouth. You're trying to argue an argument that's already been won. If someone has something to say, let them say it- until then, there's no reason to give play advice when only 2 players are objecting.

Though it's now 3 players who are objecting.

[ZazieR]

1. I'm not scum.. if I was, I wouldn't keep trying to find holes in the poor moves that have been suggested by you and co
2. Lack of your (and your buddies') desire to respond to my valid arguments and be content to wait until a worse move is deadlined is textbook scum.. considering you replaced sirdanilot who didn't contribute at all to this game except to make attacks or lurk, you're not convincing me that his (and your) play wasn't scummy
3. Nothing we say can really "help" black at this point. This is chess and there are a few FORCED sequences here after g4, all of which win material in the WORST case. Your suggestions lead down a questionable path with no clear way to secure a comparable advantage. If your line is such a great attack, show us a FORCED sequence that gives us an advantage (like g4 is) and everything will be solved. This "helping scum" routine is, well, scummy and if this game ever gets to the lynch stage, you'll be at the top of my list.

I am town and I agree with the above statements.

I am town and I disagree with the above statements.

[ZazieR]

And it's so self-destructive not to discuss moves for fear that black will have too much information that I want to go back and lynch whoever suggested that strategy. The town by its nature has less information, and we're limiting ourselves further. It's as if this town were a paraplegic who'd rather drag himself around by his elbows instead of using a wheelchair for fear of potholes.

TCS, stop proving again you haven't read this day.
And no, it's actually a good suggestion.

[ZazieR]

Ray

, I disagree with the white move after Qxg5.

[ZazieR]

Ray

, I disagree with the white move after Qxg5.

Really? Because I disagree with white throwing away a rook instead of taking a bishop for free.

Which rook?

[ZazieR]

I mean, seriously... Ray and Zaz, if you're going to try to trick black into making a godawful move, you should be voting for the move of white that leads to said godawful move that you are promoting.

Rephrase?

[ZazieR]

Ray

, I disagree with the white move after Qxg5.

Really? Because I disagree with white throwing away a rook instead of taking a bishop for free.

Which rook?

Seen it already. So never mind. It does exactly what I was aiming for, only better.

[ZazieR]

Doesn't TCS (as well as anyone for that matter) ever read my previous posts?!

I do ^.^

[ZazieR]

And I ask Zazier--why are you standing up for godawful lines? Do you even understand how to play this game or are you just entering characters into the chess tags to see where the pretty shapes go?

Yes, I know how to play. Which is why I support Nxh7.

[ZazieR]

Ng5

[ZazieR]

Ah, we agree on something.

[ZazieR]

The same can be said regarding g4.
The difference being, I see the moves resulting from Nxh7, but not those from g4.

[ZazieR]

Anyway, like I've said before, both lines lead to positions where White has the advantage, so I'm not too concerned with us winning this game, at the moment. But I favor g4 because it leads to immediate, undeniable,

significant

material gain, whereas Nxh7 lacks that characteristic.

But in the end is the following still true., a strong attack is better than material gain.
Nxh7 gives the first and if played correctly is better at the second as well.

[ZazieR]

Anyway, like I've said before, both lines lead to positions where White has the advantage, so I'm not too concerned with us winning this game, at the moment. But I favor g4 because it leads to immediate, undeniable,

significant

material gain, whereas Nxh7 lacks that characteristic.

QFT. As I said, show us a FORCED line that leads to an advantage like g4 does.

I've gone through the likely line after Ng5 earlier in the day and showed that it sucks. Rh6 is slightly better gaining an advantage of a pawn or two which is not nearly as dominating as winning a rook for a knight with the added bonus of having two active rooks against a handicapped bishop and a rook on the other side of the board.

No, instead, you can respond to point 3 of Post 1402.

[ZazieR]

Move g4

I will read the bajillion pages I've missed later.

You do know that you're too late, right?

[ZazieR]

Hrmmm... I've looked through the moves again. tcs and co are right that my line(s) of reasoning fail, and I can't follow a line of reasoning that

is

good for Nxh7... cuz of this, I'm changing over, since I can see how the line I posed (with the change tcs showed) would be beneficial to white.

unmove, move g4

Because your move 'fails', doesn't mean that other moves resulting from Nxh7 fail.
(Yes, I disagree with TCS and Veerus that your move fails)

[ZazieR]

Also, happy scumday AA ^.^

[ZazieR]

Because white can easily counter it.

[ZazieR]

Seeing that SSK has posted today, I think he forgot about us

[ZazieR]

Move hxg5

[ZazieR]

*Enter frustrations what the mod did here and abusing his mod powers to make what he did ok in his mind*

[ZazieR]

Wrong.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. Nxh7 Qf7 29. Ng5 Bxg5 30. hxg5 Kg8

And the attack is no more.

g4 is the way to go or we're going to play ourselves into a draw and force unnecessary lynches

Now that the mod has ruined this attack, it's time to reveal why this was a good move:
Reh6 should have been the move afterwards.

[ZazieR]

Goat and Ray voted for a move after deadline. Therefore, they shouldn't have been counted. And if they hadn't been counted, Nxh7 would have been moved.
That's why I also blame the mod.

[ZazieR]

Also, I do not entirely agree.
I just saw one move that can make this a strong attack against black. That is, if they play the right move.

[ZazieR]

What's wrong with g4? I don't see any obviously winning lines from Nxh7, whereas I have cashed in on a Rook v. Bishop endgame to a win countless number of times. A rook in endgame defends pawns better and attacks pawns better than a bishop. The 1 pawn (strictly materially) advantage we have will almost definitely be stretched into more once things clear out a bit more.

I don't understand the whining over a winning move. Get over it and let's win the game???? Seriously...

Move hxg5

I wouldn't be complaining this much had the mod only counted the votes before deadline. And guess who's part of that problem due to him voting after deadline?
If you were so opposed to Nxh7, why didn't you join the discussion about it?

[ZazieR]

Move: hxg5

Goat already hammered this move.

[ZazieR]

Ok,

Mod

- Why were you considering replacing me?
I can only see one reason, but if that was the reason, then I don't understand why me posting within 48 hours will make you rethink this.
I'm confused ._.

[ZazieR]

Even if the mod screwed up with the deadline votes, which it looks like he did, I completely fail to understand why this is such an enormous deal. We are going to win the chess game. Relax, play smart chess, and enjoy.

For me, it's just my way to out my frustrations. It's now done (Mostly).
Besides, I saw the attacks Nxh7 would cause, while I don't see them as strongly with g4 as I can see a lot of ways out.

[ZazieR]

I looked at that line and Rh6 is not nearly as clear or strong as g4 is. I still welcome you to prove me wrong and show me how this golden line of yours is better than our current path.

Go ahead and make a move after we'd have played Reh6.

Goat, here's the cliff's notes: the Nxh7 discussion wasn't all that heated. It was basically Zazier/IH/Emptyger claiming that Nxh7 was SO GOOD but couldn't tell us why out of fear of revealing their master plan to "the scum". Then I mentioned that g4 leads to a FORCED line which scum couldn't stop since this is primarily, you know, a game of chess, so revealing moves isn't that big of a deal. As the answer to showing us a FORCED line after Nxh7, we heard a lot of crickets and stalling posts hoping for the deadline to come.

Because as stated before, there was no point in telling black what to do in response to our attacks when it seemed Nxh7 would be the move.
Waiting for the FORCED move that will follow now

[ZazieR]

I was going to, but I got interrupted.
Will get to it soon.

[ZazieR]

Agreeing with Emptyger here.

Move Qf5

Qf5 is a better move than Rg6

[ZazieR]

Did you bold the right move?

[ZazieR]

AA just hammered...but the discussion ought to continue. Since Rg6 is confirmed, anyway, Zazie, can you reveal your plan had we gone with Qf5?

First of all, Goat had FoSed.
Secondly, you need 5 votes for a move.

I'll only elaborate if it's needed to make this move happen.

[ZazieR]

move Qf6

with the threat of Re8.

You mean Qf5, right?

[ZazieR]

move Qf6

with the threat of Re8.

You mean Qf5, right?

Err sorry, I meant Qg6.

unmove;move: Qg6

Qg6 is worse than Qf5. Black has one move in response to Qg6 that will block future attacks that we will have present if we play Qf5.

[ZazieR]

Naturally, if White moves Rg6, threatening the bishop, Black naturally moves Bd8, which moves it out of harm's way, but more importantly, removes the threat of an attack on the king.

But what if black doesn't play Bd8?

[ZazieR]

You think they will move Qe7 in response to Rg6? White simply moves Kd1, moving it out of harm's way.

You don't play Kd1 in response to Qe7.
And you should know by now that I'm not planning to show black the move I see as best.

[ZazieR]

AA

, didn't you say something like this as well?

We should keep all of our threats close to the vest if we can.

[ZazieR]

Zazie:
I'm not seeing a problem with Qg6. Does your counter cause White to lose material or let Black escape without trading? If so, say it- we have 2 other decent options so we can abandon this line if it's bad. If we win at least a pawn even with your counter, it probably is better to save it quiet.

No, the trade will very likely happen even with the move I'd do if I were black. However, that move has a high chance to lead the game to a pawn endgame or a Rook, Bisshop, pawn endgame. The first could lead to our loss depending on how we play it, while the latter gives us a better chance at winning.
But if we play Qf5, said move for black doesn't exist. Meaning we can still continue our attack.
Ask yourself this when you look at the board we currently have:
Can black do something else than trading, without losing a piece right after we move our queen?

One move of said queen moves we're discussing will have as answer 'no', while the other has 'yes' as an answer.

[ZazieR]

It's so hard to be vague >.<

[ZazieR]

You're all wrong. No matter what black plays after Qg6, our response is either Rxh7+ or Re8. Both lead to a strong attack and more material won. It's game over.

And the difference with Qf5 to you, is?

[ZazieR]

And the difference with Qf5 to you, is?

With Qf5 we don't threaten Re8. That is the big difference.

You do know that we don't need Re8 if we play Qf5, right?

[ZazieR]

First of all, the question was asked to Veerus who is in support of Qg6. By stating that we don't need it, I'm trying to show Veerus that Qf5 is better than Qg6. (1 and 2)
So far, I haven't seen a move from black to which it's best for us to play Re8 if we play Qf5 as there are better moves. (3 and 4)

[ZazieR]

And can we please drop the crap about hiding moves. We're in the forced sequence mode where our BEST move is much BETTER than theirs. After that I'm hoping Zazier will resign and save us all the trouble of playing out a won ending.

Please explain the difference, Veerus.
Previous game day, I supported a move. You disagreed with it and showed the move black could do due to which you thought that the move I was supporting was bad to move.
This time, you support again a different move. Yet this time, you don't put a board up which shows why you disagree with the move I support.

[ZazieR]

ZazieR:
I think you're going to need to say it outloud, because I'm looking, I've slept on it, and I'm still not seeing a problem with Qg6. I see either a lot of piece trading and us winning a pawn, or else black losing at least a piece. I hate to help black with get those outcomes, but it seems that one of us is missing something.

Why Qf5 over Qg6:
If the queens don't get traded, black loses a piece. This threat isn't present if we play Qg6 due to the black rook.
If you disagree, make a move with black after Qf5 has been played other than Qxf5.
And if black plays Qxf5, our pawn will take us to victory.

Do you need to know anything else?

[ZazieR]

Veerus

is also allowed to play a move for black in response to Qf5, though I wonder if he'll take this chance as he didn't take the chance after I revealed why we should have played Nxh7.

[ZazieR]

I've already said that Qf5 forces a trade which isn't the worst thing in the world except that it allows black TWO passed pawns that theoretically have a higher chance of getting to the 8th rank as compared to our one pawn considering black's king and bishop are right there.

Disagreed. How will black attack our pawn? It won't work with a rook and a bisshop against two rooks.

[ZazieR]

The only problem I see with Qg6 is that we likely end with a Q vs RB ending and according to some website I was able to google, that's a drawn ending.

Also, *headdesk* at this.

[ZazieR]

Mod

- What's the status of ah2190 and how's the replacement for Mastin coming along?

[ZazieR]

Anyway, did Qf5 get hammered or should I continue exploring the board?

I think Qf5 has three move votes. So yeah, you can continue exploring.

[ZazieR]

Ok then, what about Re5? It gets the bishop away while keeping the pressure.

What will be done after black has moved?

[ZazieR]

Also, if correct, Qf5 is at M-1.

[ZazieR]

We have a free shot at the d5 pawn and prevent the discover check after f3.

My question was what is your response move after black has played a move if we play Re5. Not what the advantages are of playing Re5.
Because I don't see what we can do after threatening a black pawn and a black bishop.

[ZazieR]

move Re5

Fork the bishop, pick up the pawn. There's no rush to trade queens; white has the advantage, and should play to press it, I think. Black's queen isn't doing anything spectacular, whereas ours is active.

We will still have the advantage if we trade queens. By playing Re5 the chance arrives for black to make their queen active.
Qf5 takes more time, but doesn't risk anything.

[ZazieR]

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. Everyone else seems to have a big case of

group-think

going on.

What do you mean with the bolded?

[ZazieR]

Also,

Mod

, when's deadline?

[ZazieR]

Mod

- Could we have a Move Count?

[ZazieR]

You guys stilll aren't done, even though I largely ignored this for about a week?

We were almost there. This news gets even better when you hear that we almost had a hammer move on the correct move, Qf5. But then Sudo replaced in and everything changed.
Also, I just saw that there were others who haven't weighed in for a while now as well.

Mod

- please prod them in case it might make a difference.

[ZazieR]

We have a free shot at the d5 pawn and prevent the discover check after f3.

My question was what is your response move after black has played a move if we play Re5. Not what the advantages are of playing Re5.
Because I don't see what we can do after threatening a black pawn and a black bishop.

Well, black can't effectively protect the bishop AND the pawn, so unless you can point something out, our response would be to capture whatever piece is not protected. How is that not obvious?

Yes, black can.
Also, wasn't one of the advantages of Re5 that black can't move f3? What you suggest in the quote gives them this opportunity. Only protect the bishop, Veerus wants to whack the pawn, f3 and either check (And what the main reason of Re5 was fails) or we trade a rook for a pawn and bishop, perhaps with an included check.

[ZazieR]

Thanks for confirming my thoughts. Everyone else seems to have a big case of

group-think

going on.

What do you mean with the bolded?

I mean that there's no discussion and no consideration of alternative moves. Especially when the move being voted on is terrible.

The queen trade isn't that terrible according to you. As for the two black pawns, both won't last long at all. It's two black pawns, a bishop a rook and perhaps a king against a white pawn and two rooks.
Yes, black has more pieces, but our pieces are stronger placed.

Short stated: Qf5 is not a terrible move and is in fact better than Re5.

[ZazieR]

ugh That's the second time today, isn't it. Betwen Re6 and Qf5.

I thought it was between Re5 and Qf5

[ZazieR]

Prods were more aimed at Goat, ah and TCS.
Though Goat has stated computer issues and ah has a lack of interest ._.

[ZazieR]

Zazie:
I really think you're missing something in your analyses- about both Re5 and Qg6.

In case you're wrong again, do you mean Qf5 instead of Qg6?
Because if you are, I'm pretty certain I'm not.
There's one moveblack can do as response towards the two moves, Re5 and Qf5, that gets supported. However, if it gets played after Qf5, it's a great loss towards black. But we can't make it as destructive if Re5 gets played.
Still standing that Qf5 is certain victory, while I can't say that about Re5. That move has too many holes.

[ZazieR]

Also,

Sudo

and

Veerus

should explain why they don't want to trade queens as black's queen is yet inactive, while the move they support can make black's queen active.

[ZazieR]

According to Emptyger, I'm missing something. Sudo thinks this is the best move, while Qf5 would have prevented Qg8 or it would give black a lot of damage. So I'm waiting for them to show why this was the right move to make.
I'd have liked to include Veerus to the above names as he supported Re5 as well, but he already showed what he wanted to do. And even if black didn't prevent it, it was still a bad plan.
In other words, I'm not seeing why Re5 was such a great move and therefore don't know where to go next.