Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[Abstract Actuary]

Hi all. I've been loosely following along since the 4th move or so, but I'm pretty busy today. I'll make a post sometime this weekend with at least my thoughts on the chess position and hopefully some thoughts on the mafia game, too.

[Abstract Actuary]

Bd2 and Be2 are both decent moves. I haven't seen a good refutation for d5 and it seems like a stronger position for white, cramping Black's position and Black's development.

I'm torn about the "I rape your line, you rape my line" game. I like it as a way to force people to refute things other than just saying "that move sucks" but it does give Black help making their moves when we do select one of the options.

[Abstract Actuary]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. d5 d6 12. Qxb4

[Abstract Actuary]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. d5 d6 12. Qxb4 Nxd5 13. Qd4

I like our position better here than our current position.

[Abstract Actuary]

We look even worse off than before in that position.

Care to elaborate?

Someone may correct me, but I think Black would play Nf6 here. I rather like our position after

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. d5 d6 12. Qxb4 Nxd5 13. Qd4 Nf6 14. Bc4

[Abstract Actuary]

Sure, AA is fine with me.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. d5 Qa5

That does look strong. Here is the board for others to see. At the moment I don't see a good play for White. Let me think about it more.

[Abstract Actuary]

Our d pawn is hanging. And Qa5 doesn't open up the opportunity to play b3 and fianchetto our bishop. We can do that right now.

[Abstract Actuary]

Ok, I support Bd2 over the alternatives.

Move: Bd2

[Abstract Actuary]

There is a deadline in 2 days. If I am reading and interpreting the rules correctly if we don't make a move then the mafia will get a free kill. That is definitely the worst scenario. We'd rather make a bad move or randomly lynch somebody than that.

I would rank our options as

-Make a well thought out and agreed upon good move
-Lynch the scummiest player
-Make a decent move that we agree shouldn't hurt us, but doesn't really help us

-----gap-------

-Lynch a random player
-Make a bad move

-----huge gap--------

Pass

I'm not sure we have time to accomplish the first or second option at this point. Any suggestions?

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Qb3

Black isn't making optimal moves. This is something that could come in handy when we start playing mafia.

[Abstract Actuary]

d5 looked much better to me than b5 for black. Also, Qb3 looks much better to me than Qd3. I think we should wait until a few more people weigh in before we discuss anything. If a large majority want one move or the other, then we should just play it without discussion. Force them to go into this next move with a smaller idea of our plan and how to follow up against these moves.

[Abstract Actuary]

Hm.. both Qb3 and Qd3 leave us in an equally undesirable situation. The following Qb3 follow-up will likely result in an exchange that will open up the board but will leave us a pawn down.. do we really want to do that? Or are those voting for Qb3 not planning on capturing the pawn next move?

>

Current chess board

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qb3 Bb7 13. Bxb4 Bxf3 14. gxf3 Bxb4 15. Qxb4 Nd5 16. Qd6 Qh4

We aren't a pawn down in this position. In fact we are a pawn up (although about to lose one back).

[Abstract Actuary]

He didn't say this position. He meant the position later.

There is no later forced position where we are down a pawn that I can see. As a matter of fact, I like the position he shows (which may not involve optimal moves for either white or black) a lot better than our current position.

In any case, please refer to post #530 for all the stupid things that will happen with 12. Qb3.

Why does everyone insist on talking so dramatically like they've always 100% refuted a line when they haven't even come close? In your own post below you say "There may be better moves than this" and then "but the position obviously gets us nowhere". That is nowhere near "all the stupid things that will happen".

In addition, your 530 is a line that involved Qd3, then Qb3. So (1) it absolutely does not apply to playing Qb3 first and (2) is an absolute waste of an analysis, because we would never play Qd3 and then Qb3. Like you said "there may be better moves".

11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qb3 Kh8 14. Bd3 Bb7 15. Bxf5 Rc8 16. Ne5 Ne4 17. Bxe4 Bxe4 18. O-O Rxc2

e4 c5 Nc3 Nc6 f4 e6 Nf3 f5 exf5 exf5 Qe2 Be7 Nd5 Nb4 Nxb4 cxb4 d4 Nf6 Qc4 a6 Bd2 b5 Qd3 O-O Qb3 Kh8 Bd3 Bb7 Bxf5 Rc8 Ne5 Ne4 Bxe4 Bxe4 O-O Rxc2

That's on my piece of paper. There may be better moves than this, but this position obviously gets us nowhere, in my opinion.

[Abstract Actuary]

I think it is a decent strategy. Although I think our current strategy could work. The main reason I think this is because I think Black is made up of weak players. The move that doubled their pawns on the b file in addition to their most recent move have been very far from optimal. If we exchange a lot of pieces and get this down to the endgame, I'm confident we can win the game.

[Abstract Actuary]

Do any of the players in this game play chess on mafiascum regularly? Or play on ICC? Or play over the board standard chess in tournaments regularly?

I think choosing a player shouldn't be hard. We should go with the best established mafiascum player, if there is one. Then we should go with the top ICC or real life players. The mafiascum first, because that can be verified, whereas the others we would have to take people's word. I haven't played here on mafiascum, though I do play on schemingmind.com.

[Abstract Actuary]

Or play on ICC? Or play over the board standard chess in tournaments regularly?

I play both at chess.com (the biggest and best online chess site) and I also play OTB chess in tournaments regularily.

At chess.com, I'm rated about 1400, which in the 64th percentile. My average opponent rating is also over 100 points higher than me.

Chess.com is quite possibly the best free online site, but the best place to play online by a very large margin is ICC (Internet Chess Club). It has the strongest talent by far, including many GMs.

I'm not sure how to judge your chess.com rating as I don't play there. What is your OTB rating?

[Abstract Actuary]

I'm still here and I still support Qb3.

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Given a brief look, I believe they've hung their f pawn and we should take it. I disagree that it is acceptable to say that "we'll take it later anyway."

It looks like they can discover attack by moving their knight on f6 or their pawn on d7, but I don't see anything resulting from that that is better than going up a pawn. I will look into it closer, but I agree we shouldn't really jump all over it right away, until we are sure there is nothing deadly following.

But, once we do go up this pawn, we can change our in-game strategy. I believe we'll be able to openly discuss the game, as I believe we will be able to methodically just make sound moves from here on out and win in the endgame.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Qxf5

[Abstract Actuary]

I don't like Qe5 as it leaves our Queen in a position to be trapped or pinned to our king more easily. Now that we are up a pawn we need to secure our position. At first glance I like Qd3.

[Abstract Actuary]

Ok, I think we need to get all of our pieces developed now and castle our king, or move him to the d file.

If they play Nxd2 and we play Qxd2 they can't play Rxf4. I would also consider Ne5 here.

Still, I think I like Be3. It puts a piece on the e-file in front of our king and protects the f2 sqaure which is very vulnerable and preventing us from castling queenside and protects the d pawn again.

I briefly considered Ne5 as another way to stop up the e-file and give us a very strong piece of our own, but I think there are more important things to do right now.


Hmmmm, what is our plan after Be3 Bf5?

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. Be3 Bf5

I guess Qe2 looks alright.

[Abstract Actuary]

Btw, despite the fact the mod hasn't announced it I'm a new replacement. We have 15 days worth of information for us to use to find scum, we no longer should be playing the chess, we should play the mafia

Why?

[Abstract Actuary]

Btw, despite the fact the mod hasn't announced it I'm a new replacement. We have 15 days worth of information for us to use to find scum, we no longer should be playing the chess, we should play the mafia

Why?

Because the mafia can influence the moves we make, they have a strategy, so they have the advantage when we play chess, now we are a good deal through the chess game we can now use information that has been gathered throughout the playtime. Though at some points it may be hard to tell who is misleading scum or stupid town we can rattle down a large number of players.

Max, we are winning the chess game right now, despite any influence from scum. There is no reason to change our strategy. Also, we have the luxury of stopping the chess game and switching to mafia on the town's time. So if we do start losing control of the chess game we can always stop and start playing mafia at that point. But until then we are in more control of the game if we continue with the chess game.

Ok, I think we need to get all of our pieces developed now and castle our king, or move him to the d file.

If they play Nxd2 and we play Qxd2 they can't play Rxf4. I would also consider Ne5 here.

Still, I think I like Be3. It puts a piece on the e-file in front of our king and protects the f2 sqaure which is very vulnerable and preventing us from castling queenside and protects the d pawn again.

I briefly considered Ne5 as another way to stop up the e-file and give us a very strong piece of our own, but I think there are more important things to do right now.


Hmmmm, what is our plan after Be3 Bf5?

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. Be3 Bf5

I guess Qe2 looks alright.

I am still leaning towards Be3.

[Abstract Actuary]

Ok, looking at it. I'm fine trading away our bishop for their knight. Right now our top priority is safety. We achieve that mainly between development and repositioning our king. Be3 doesn't help us develop, whereas g3 does. I don't like our bishop on e2 as it suffocates our already vulnerable queen so I want to develop it to its right. g3 protects the pawn and moves to develop the f bishop.

Move: g3

[Abstract Actuary]

We have to move the Queen. e3, e2 and b3 are the only safe squares. At this point I can see some merit for each of them and at the same time none stand out as great moves. After Qe3 or Qe2 a knight move discover attacks the c2 pawn, while opening up the e-file for an attack on our queen/king. I'm not seeing anything particularly devastating, but it isn't good for us. For this reason, I'm leaning towards Qb3, despite it suffocating our queen.

Here are the boards.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qe2

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qe3

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3

[Abstract Actuary]

At this point I still favor Qb3. Our queen has less mobility, but it also adds pressure, defends our c pawn and is less vulnerable than on the open e-file.

[Abstract Actuary]

Why do we need to move the queen?

They are threatening Nf2 or Nxg3.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Qb3

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Still here, nothing has changed for me. I still think Qb3 is slightly better than Qe3.

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Anyone who doesn't have a vote on a move needs to make one or generate discussion.

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I'd like to finish it. Maybe we could institute quicker deadlines if people refuse to discuss things. Frankly, I think these moves are very close, and I also think that Black is liable to make some mistakes against either move, which is why I don't want to elaborate on their follow up move.

I think everyone should have a vote for one of the two moves or be questioning something. That would lead to a majority.

[Abstract Actuary]

I can't decide which move I like better. The king move looks significantly superior now* but I'm nervous about the long-term safety of our king in the middle of the board.

*
-d2 is much safer than e1 and possibly even safer than either of the castle squares
-The knight is in a much better spot at f3 than it would be on d2

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Kxd2

[Abstract Actuary]

Re1 seems ok, but it doesn't address our weak and attacked knight or the pin of the knight on the rook. It is true that neither of those is an immediate threat, but it is a danger and weakness in our position.

Not a current threat: We have no reason to move our knight, it is currently protected and they have no way to immediately attack it again.

But, long term danger: If they can get pressure on our knight before we protect it again or break the pin, we could lose material.

So I think it is in our best interest to work towards breaking the pin and/or protecting the knight.

Options:
Bg2 - strengths: breaks pin on rook and protects knight; weaknesses: weak diagonal for the bishop and creates pin on currently unprotected bishop.
Be2 - strengths: protects knight, connects rook, frees h1 rook to move away from pin; weaknesses: does not break pin.
h4,Rh2,Rf2/e2 - strengths: begins advancing pawns for kingside attack, frees rook to second row, to allow to break pin and more easily double rooks; weaknesses: takes a long time, weakens pawn structure

As I said earlier, they can't immediately attack our knight, but they can add pressure quickly. They are two queen moves away from adding a second attacker and they could also play the risky, yet pressureful g5.

Before hearing any response, I'm leaning towards Bg2 or Be2 followed by Rf1

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Be2

[Abstract Actuary]

I like our queen where she is. A move to e3 doesn't seem advantageous to me.

Move: Re1

I had a whole post typed up explaining why I disagreed with Re1 and questioning you about it. Then in post preview of the move and subsequent responses, I decided that I liked it.

Unmove, Move: Re1

[Abstract Actuary]

I've been waiting well over a week to say this . . .

Anyway, to the people voting Re1, what will your response be to ...Rc8? Our best reply to that before was c3 however that is no longer an option.

Then Rxe4, and Black might as well resign.

I absolutely CAN NOT BELIEVE that this post was made. It was not an obvious tactic at all and I missed it the first time through as did a bunch of other players. With the mistakes that Black has made, they were very likely to miss that pin and hang that piece. Why would you make this post?

It isn't like we were having a heated debate between the played move and another candidate. This move was going to go through and a vague safe response would have sufficed to his question. Instead you made a post that only helped scum. And at that, it only helped scum if you were town, so you can't even get a scum read from it.


As it currently stands, I am of the opinion that you can't change the rules of the game mid-game. And as others have said this clearly benefits scum. Although the rules clearly benefit town, since we have sole control over when deaths occur. Still, I am against a midgame rule change and I don't want to abandon this game or draw. I want to simply play out the chess/mafia game.

Scum is free to resign. Or, in lieu of resigning, try some crazy chess/mafia gambit where they claim something ridiculous to try to get us to start lynching people.

Once we get to lynchings or if the game ends, I would be interested to see if I (or any of us) could pinpoint scum by rereading the current chess discussion.

[Abstract Actuary]

Back to the chess game. Now, since the hanging bishop tactic didn't work, we are back to where I said we were before the last move. Our top priority is to get out of the pin/protect our knight. I like Bg2 or even Bh3, followed by moving the h rook.

See below for my thoughts before the most recent move. With our rook on e1, I like Be2 less than I did before, since it further cramps our pieces.

Re1 seems ok, but it doesn't address our weak and attacked knight or the pin of the knight on the rook. It is true that neither of those is an immediate threat, but it is a danger and weakness in our position.

Not a current threat: We have no reason to move our knight, it is currently protected and they have no way to immediately attack it again.

But, long term danger: If they can get pressure on our knight before we protect it again or break the pin, we could lose material.

So I think it is in our best interest to work towards breaking the pin and/or protecting the knight.

Options:
Bg2 - strengths: breaks pin on rook and protects knight; weaknesses: weak diagonal for the bishop and creates pin on currently unprotected bishop.
Be2 - strengths: protects knight, connects rook, frees h1 rook to move away from pin; weaknesses: does not break pin.
h4,Rh2,Rf2/e2 - strengths: begins advancing pawns for kingside attack, frees rook to second row, to allow to break pin and more easily double rooks; weaknesses: takes a long time, weakens pawn structure

As I said earlier, they can't immediately attack our knight, but they can add pressure quickly. They are two queen moves away from adding a second attacker and they could also play the risky, yet pressureful g5.

Before hearing any response, I'm leaning towards Bg2 or Be2 followed by Rf1

[Abstract Actuary]

Re1 was not the optimal move if the trap wasn't in play. I understand your point that it was basically a "free" move since black had to move their king. But really it gave black the free move to move their king to safety and it didn't really gain us any tempo, since we will likely have to move our rook back to c1 very soon anyway. In the two positions shown above (with and without Re1, the one where we didn't play Re1 is better. Their king is still somewhat vulnerable and our rook isn't out of position (it will need to be back on the queen side). Also you assume that we would have played Qe3 instead, which was not a foregone conclusion and likely wasn't the best move in that situation.

Re1 was not optimal after the trap was revealed. It was probably our 4th best move or so. See my post from earlier in that day for details.

I don't want to have to play c3. That would severely weaken our pawn chain and strengthen their pawn chain at the same time. Both of those would result in a much more dangerous position for our king, as well.

It seems the Qe3 crowd is worrying a little too much about c2 and forgetting about the pin on the knight. If they wanted to attack c2, they didn't have to move their bishop to e4. In fact, I doubt they even noticed the weakness of c2 until we brought it up here.

What is our response to g5?

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5

[Abstract Actuary]

My analysis and questions still stand. But since

I'm going to be V/LA from 5/25-6/3

I will make a move to help the game move along without me.

Move: Bg2

. Reread my posts this move and last for details.

[Abstract Actuary]

I'm back and have always followed this game. I've always had my thoughts/questions on the table each move.

Someone said that Bg2 doesn't break the pin. I agree that we still can't move our knight immediately, but it does break the pin on the rook and it adds protection to the bishop. I believe that Bg2 weakens black's g5 option.

[Abstract Actuary]

20 Ne5 Bxh1

We obviously can't play 20 fxg5.

I think our candidate moves are Bd3, Bg2, Bh3 and Rg1.

I favor Rg1 at the moment. It breaks the pin and places our rook on the g-file, which may soon become open. Actually, as I look back at the board, I'm seeing some potentially troublesome moves for black if we don't deal with some of our weaknesses on this move. Although Rg1 breaks the pin, it does not add any protection to any of our weak squares. I favor Bd3.

In order to help facilitate the speed of this game, I'll also bold my move, even though we are in preliminary talks.

Move: Bd3

[Abstract Actuary]

Our three weakest and most vulnerable squares are f4, f3 and c2 and while Rg1 does relieve the pin, it does not protect any of those squares. I didn't want to have to show black the troublesome moves I was seeing after Rg1, but since the support for it is growing, I will show one.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Rg1 Qc7

[Abstract Actuary]

No.

20. Rg1 Qc7
21. Bd3 Qc2. Check.
22. Bc2. They give us their queen.

We don't lose anything by waiting a turn.

Also, if they do

20. Rg1 Qc7
21. Bd3 Qc3. Check.
We respond by simply capturing their queen with our pawn.

Simple, really. They can't harm us.

Mastin, these are two absolutely ridiculous lines. The players in this game aren't grandmasters, but most of them aren't terrible chess players either. If you see a line where they lose their queen, don't even explore it.

Qc7, attacks both our c2 pawn and our f4 pawn.
20. Rg1 Qc7
21. Bd3 Bxd3
22. Q/K/c xd3 gxf4
23. gxf4 R/Q xf4

and we've lost a pawn. The moves with slashes allow for different pieces to use for certain captures, but ultimately don't affect the lost pawn, though may affect the position.

[Abstract Actuary]

Qc7, attacks both our c2 pawn and our f4 pawn.

We can guard the c2 pawn with our bishop once Qc7 is done, the f4 pawn is protected by a pawn AND our queen. So if they captured the f4 pawn, we'd capture their f-4 pawn, nothing to take our pawn's position. If they use their queen, guess what? We capture it with our queen.

So, no, nothing wrong with waiting.

Please reread my post. It lays out the exact thing you discuss. Here is a sequence of moves with capture pieces chosen to make it more clear.

20. Rg1 Qc7
21. Bd3 Bxd3
22. Kxd3 gxf4
23. gxf4 Qxf4
24. Qxf4 Rxf4

and we have lost a pawn.

Sound strategy, but that you've missed the rook lurking on the f8-square.

As far as I can see, Rg1 definitely has a chance for us to salvage something from this game, but otherwise, it leads to a drawn position.

@AA: I disagree with your move. I think that

20. Rg1 Qc7
21. Bd3 Bxd3
22. Kxd3 Bf6
23. Ne5 Rac8

Also, you guys are not including Bd3 in your discussions.

Maybe I am unclear on your read of my post. My current proposal is for Bd3 and against Rg1. In your moves above they wouldn't play Bf6, they would play gxf4, just like I describe above . . . twice.

[Abstract Actuary]

Can we get a move count? And how many does it take to finish a move?

At first I thought Qe2 was terrible and gxf4 was the obvious choice, but I now agree with Indigo Heron.

21. gxf4 Bd6

If 22. Ne5, then 22. ... Bxh1 and we are down the exchange to a pawn and what could be more. LOL, I wish we would have broken the pin instead of playing Re1.

If 22. other, then 22. Bxf4 and we've lost that pawn anyway.

However, after

21. Qe2 fxg3
22. Bxe4 dxe4
23. Qxe4 and we lost that pawn, but have a chance to get it back.

[Abstract Actuary]

Can we get a move count? And how many does it take to finish a move?

Yes, you may. In the next post. It still takes 5 to move.

Thanks!

We need to use the pawn to capture--
It's not guarding anything.

The Queen, however, is, and using her to capture it would leave her exposed.
Not going to hammer it, yet.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. gxf4 Bd6

And now we will lose the pawn back, unless we play Ne5, in which case we will lose the rook. We do have the option not to capture back on this move.


Because of this, I will

Move: Qe2

[Abstract Actuary]

I like Ne5 here, without too deep a look. I'll take a deeper look on Monday. Maybe Re6.

Again (1) I haven't looked too deep and (2) this doesn't matter because it is passed . . . but why did we quick-move without even waiting for everyone's opinion and why didn't we consider Qxe7?

[Abstract Actuary]

I didn't like g4 at first, but I'm starting to think that may be ok for us. The three plausible moves in my opinion are g4, Ne5 and Re6. Re6 is still my favorite. With their over extended pawns they are very weak on the 6th and 7th rank and I'd like to begin attacking that as soon as possible. It will also be the first step in doubling our rooks, which I don't want to do now, but usually becomes a goal at this stage in the game.

Move: Re6

[Abstract Actuary]

due to a family emergency I wil have to request at least temporary replacement out of my games.

Hope everything is alright/gets resolved optimally/my condolences.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Re6

[Abstract Actuary]

I like Ng5. I'll bold the move tomorrow if no one finds anything damning about it.

[Abstract Actuary]

I also have a move in mind that neutralizes Ng5 pretty well, but I still think that is our best prospective position from here. I also think there is a chance Black won't find that move, which leads me to strongly favor Ng5 and strongly favor no one pointing out any good moves for Black.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Ng5

[Abstract Actuary]

I don't like Rhe1. It doesn't do much, since if they take the rook, we still have to take with the knight (otherwise our knight is hanging). And it opens up a pawn loss with fxg3.

I'm actually liking Kd1, in order to move our king off of its black square. So that gxf4 Bxf4 is not with check.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Kd1

. I'm not enthralled with any of the other arguments or moves. I believe getting our king off of his dark square is pretty important and this is a great time to do it, with no other move accomplishing much.

[Abstract Actuary]

I still think Kd1 is the best move.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: h4

It is a pretty clear choice here. All other lines mentioned so far and that I can see are clearly inferior. And all discussion around the move is only potentially helpful to black at this point, especially given how likely we are to play it.

-Only bring up possible counters if you see something that is very bad for us.

-Additionally, if someone mentions a move like h6, that is obviously a terrible move, just ignore it. Most of us obviously see how bad it is, and we will appropriately disregard it, and who knows, maybe that person will be on black. Wait until a bad move gets some traction, which likely won't happen, before refuting it.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Re5

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

Wow, at first I was dismissive, but I think Indigo Heron may be right. I love Qd3. In fact, I would go as far as to call it 'Qd3!'.

Move: Qd3

[Abstract Actuary]

I've looked into all candidate moves for black immediately following this move and I don't think they have any saving defense. I believe I've looked at all candidate moves 2 moves deep for black and again, I still don't seem them avoiding the loss of material, maybe significant.

I agree that Nxh7 has similar threats and many similar outcomes, but I have seen some possibilities for black to weasel out that they can not do against Qd3.

Also, as long as you are comfortable playing chess, there is no reason to even be concerned with the mafia aspects of this game.

[Abstract Actuary]

Qd3 leads to Qd3 Qf8 Nxh7 Qf7 Ng5 Qf8. Unless black blunders, I didn’t see us winning more than a pawn here.

Nxh7 is harder to analyze, because I’m also looking at alternatives to Bf8 and Rf6. I’ll say that so far I’ve not seen any problem with it, but I’m not yet ready to say so definitively.

If the worst we are doing is winning a pawn, then I think this is a pretty clearcut choice.

Additionally, I may have some alternatives to that line which work out even better for White. But it should be obvious, they need not be mentioned at this time.

[Abstract Actuary]

Qd3 leads to Qd3 Qf8 Nxh7 Qf7 Ng5 Qf8. Unless black blunders, I didn’t see us winning more than a pawn here.

Nxh7 is harder to analyze, because I’m also looking at alternatives to Bf8 and Rf6. I’ll say that so far I’ve not seen any problem with it, but I’m not yet ready to say so definitively.

If the worst we are doing is winning a pawn, then I think this is a pretty clearcut choice.

Additionally, I may have some alternatives to that line which work out even better for White. But it should be obvious, they need not be mentioned at this time.

Sorry for the double post. But I thought it crucial to point out at this point that we should never make a move before we have heard from everyone (or close to it). I would be pissed if I came back on Tuesday and we had played Qd3, then black had played their response and we had pushed through our next move already.

I will repeat. I may have even better alternatives for white than those suggested so far.

[Abstract Actuary]

Wow, that was a ridiculously long night for what I think was basically a forced move.

Ok, our plan was Nxf7. My "secret" plan was g4 immediately. I'll bold that move tomorrow unless someone sees a problem with it. I don't see much reason to discuss all the consequences at this point unless you see a problem with a line. We should keep all of our threats close to the vest if we can. All they have to miss is one of them.

If someone points out a refutation that is obviously flawed, then don't explain why.

[Abstract Actuary]

Yes, I meant Nxh7 as our previous plan, sorry.

I will stick by my move.

move: Nxh7

Hmmm. Don't you see the superiority of g4?

[Abstract Actuary]

You guys make me sad.

Move: g4

[Abstract Actuary]

I still maintain that g4 is significantly better.

We said we didn't want to show black how to defend, but it has already been done a little bit in 1308.

Those that say Nxh7 is better point to the f-file passed pawn and the elimination of our attack, but 1308 shows that Nxh7 leads to both of those same results.

Also, it should be noted, despite the point system, a Rook for a Knight and a Pawn is much, much better than winning a pawn (even though they are both "worth 1 point"). Also, double, isolated pawns are almost equal to one pawn. So the pawn we would be gaining under Nxh7 is worth about .2 of a point.

[Abstract Actuary]

Honestly, the game is currently in our favor, but it is not 100% decisive in any case, so I still want to avoid giving any additional information to scum.

The line posted in 1308 is not a very powerful attack at all. Very similar in strength and even position to what will happen after g4, while we have a much better material advantage after g4. It is as simple as that.

Even if the attack is slightly better with Nxh7, neither attack is decisive, thus there is no need to have a slightly better attack when ultimately we will win the game by liquidating and winning our materially superior endgame. Nxh7 leads to a much less sure endgame victory.

[Abstract Actuary]

I'm not sure why I'm even posting since my thoughts are known and I'm just going to restate them. Wait, I know why I'm posting, to add to he lulz about Ray's sequence where we end up in a drawn endgame.

My favorite move he chooses is the Rook for pawn sacrifice of 32. Rxh7! Honestly, Ray, what are you even trying to do? You chose a sequence of moves with the sole purpose (for both sides) of equalizing the material and getting to a King and Pawn endgame. Neither side would have that goal in mind.

Anyway, like I've said before, both lines lead to positions where White has the advantage, so I'm not too concerned with us winning this game, at the moment. But I favor g4 because it leads to immediate, undeniable,

significant

material gain, whereas Nxh7 lacks that characteristic.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: hxg5

[Abstract Actuary]

Rg6 is definitely not the best move. As someone else said Re5 is a much better version of Rg6. In fact that is my favorite move with Qf5 and Qf3 as close seconds. I see us playing one of those two moves next.

Move: Rg6

since I'm the only one with that move, it shouldn't stifle discussion (by hammering a move before we have a good chance to discuss things here).

[Abstract Actuary]

D'oh.

Unmove Rg6, Move Re5

[Abstract Actuary]

I still think Re5 is a strong move that leads to us winning a pawn*. So I went to refute the "queen trade" line and I saw some things I didn't see the first time. I think it is our best move. This assumes that we feel that a queen trade is stronger than winning a pawn at this juncture. And I think it is. Partially because I think we will be able to win the pawn after the trade anyway.

I'll probably switch to Qf5 soon, but I know it already has some votes and wouldn't mind seeing some more discussion.

Also, IH, black wouldn't play Bd8.


*30. Re5 Qd8/Qg8
31. Qf3 Rd7
32. Rh8
We win at least a pawn, block their passed pawn, gain our own passed pawn, connect our rooks.

[Abstract Actuary]

EBWOP: That last move should be Rh5.

[Abstract Actuary]

AA

, didn't you say something like this as well?

We should keep all of our threats close to the vest if we can.

True. Eh, I feel that the line I offered was not giving anything away. Neither side is playing any dynamic move. All are pretty forced and the result is only a won pawn.

AA:
Any reason why you keep ignoring the move currently under discussion? First you choose Re5 > Rg6, ignoring Qf5. Now you choose Qf5 > Re5 (while leaving your vote on Re5!), ignoring Qg6.

Hmmm. At the time I made my first move, Rg6 had the most support. I directly commented on my dislike for that move and also mentioned Qf5 and Qf3 as alternatives along with my suggestion Re5.

As of now, honsetly, I thought Qg6 was a typo. I thought the person wrote Qf6 and I thought they meant Qf5. Anyhow, I hadn't considered that move, but I am looking at it now and I see a very powerful move for black. Unless there is a strong refutation to the move I'm thinking of it is far inferior to Re5 or Qf5.

[Abstract Actuary]

And the difference with Qf5 to you, is?

With Qf5 we don't threaten Re8. That is the big difference.

You're all wrong. No matter what black plays after Qg6, our response is either Rxh7+ or Re8. Both lead to a strong attack and more material won. It's game over.

Unfortunately, I don't think we have a good response for Rg7. If I'm missing something obvious, then maybe there is no need to point it out, but both Re8 and Rxh7 don't work according to my calculations.

[Abstract Actuary]

And the difference with Qf5 to you, is?

With Qf5 we don't threaten Re8. That is the big difference.

You do know that we don't need Re8 if we play Qf5, right?

That doesn't even make any sense. (1) I was just telling you the answer to your question. (2) I am on the side of Qf5 over Qg6 . . . so . . . not sure what you're arguing about. (3) Re8 is a potentially devastating move. I understand that we don't need that move to win, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to land it if possible. (4) You must not fully understand the Qf5 threats if you think "we don't need Re8". That is all that needs to be said. There is no need for us to argue and discuss moves if we are both driving towards the same move anyway.

[Abstract Actuary]

First of all, the question was asked to Veerus who is in support of Qg6. By stating that we don't need it, I'm trying to show Veerus that Qf5 is better than Qg6. (1 and 2)
So far, I haven't seen a move from black to which it's best for us to play Re8 if we play Qf5 as there are better moves. (3 and 4)

You asked "and the difference with Qf5 is"

One difference is that we don't directly threaten Re8. What don't you understand about your question and that simple answer? Maybe the meaning of difference? Your question didn't tell him "we don't need the threat of Re8". That seems to be what you think you said. (Your response to 1 and 2)

Again, if you don't see the lines where we may employ a similar threat as Re8 (not necessarily in the very next move), you don't fully see the potential responses to Qf5 and what our responses will be to those moves. (Your response to 3 and 4) This point is irrelevant right now as we can only decide on our immediate next move, so you don't need to know those and we don't need to discuss them.

Again, there is no reason to continue with this. We're arguing about semantics (1 and 2) and we both support the same upcoming move (3 and 4).

[Abstract Actuary]

Holy crap sorry about that. Pc at home kept hanging and I had to run out for work.

The answer to your question, AA, is like I said - Rxh7. Black is forced to capture with the rook and we follow up with Re8.

And can we please drop the crap about hiding moves. We're in the forced sequence mode where our BEST move is much BETTER than theirs. After that I'm hoping Zazier will resign and save us all the trouble of playing out a won ending.

In your scenario Black gets two rooks for a queen and a pawn. That isn't that good for us.

[Abstract Actuary]

And can we please drop the crap about hiding moves. We're in the forced sequence mode where our BEST move is much BETTER than theirs. After that I'm hoping Zazier will resign and save us all the trouble of playing out a won ending.

While I agree with you somewhat, here is my thinking. Yes, we essentially have a forced win by slowly working down, gaining small material and winning an endgame. That will take forever. I don't see black resigning. I'm hoping they miss a mate or a queen threat so this game can end faster. That is why I prefer not to disclose all of our responses to each move, so they are given the opportunity to miss a major threat.

If someone is adamantly against a good line because of a bad response, if necessary, I don't mind showing our plan to make sure the better move is played. But if we all see it, or enough of us to hammer, than I don't see a reason to talk about it.

[Abstract Actuary]

The alternatives to trading queens after Qf5 are the exact types of moves that I'm hoping black plays. I think this move will be the final move and I currently don't see a reason to show black our plan from here.

Also, EmpTyger, have you read the last page? Qg6 Rg7.

Move: Qf5

[Abstract Actuary]

We just had two pages discussing those two moves. Do you have any more specific questions? Anyone without a current vote needs to either make a vote or ask some questions/give some suggestions.

[Abstract Actuary]

Sounds good.

[Abstract Actuary]

Hello new friends. Now analyzing the game; I'm unlikely to read through all the pages anytime soon, but I'll try.

I'd say just analyze the current position for now and give us your thoughts. Possibly look back over the last 3 or 4 days to see how we got here and what we discussed. Peruse the rest of the game at your leisure. It is really only valuable if you are searching for scum, which is unnecessary at this point.

[Abstract Actuary]

We have a free shot at the d5 pawn and prevent the discover check after f3.

My question was what is your response move after black has played a move if we play Re5. Not what the advantages are of playing Re5.
Because I don't see what we can do after threatening a black pawn and a black bishop.

Well, black can't effectively protect the bishop AND the pawn, so unless you can point something out, our response would be to capture whatever piece is not protected. How is that not obvious?

Black can easily protect them both on the upcoming move. Have you even read all the posts made this day?

[Abstract Actuary]

Don't prod me. I"m here and my thoughts are all known and I have a vote on the table for my preferred move.

[Abstract Actuary]

Rh5 and Qf3 are also alternatives, although I think Qf5 is probably best.

[Abstract Actuary]

Hmmm. I didn't even consider that option. I only considered them moving away the bishop. Is there some exploit here that I was seeing that made me dismiss this? I don't see it right now.

My first thought is Rh5. Rhe1 also looks somewhat interesting.

[Abstract Actuary]

Emp: We've already won the d pawn, and there is nothing they can do about it. So we don't need to take it this move. Rh5 makes it so they can't play f3+ and it goes after an additional pawn (their passed pawn, by way of forcing them to move their bishop). But it with their most recent move, I think they get our g pawn in return, so not a big gain for us.

Rhe1 doesn't win the queen.

In fact, following on what Emp suggested . . .

32. Rhe1 Bh4
33. R1e2 Rf7
34. . . . f3


After all of this, I'm thinking Rh5 is still best. It isn't dynamic, but is a slow and steady way to win the game.

[Abstract Actuary]

32. Rhe1 Bh4
33. R1e2 Rf7
34. Qh5 f3
35. Re8 ...doesn't matter

Boy that is a dicey position, but I think you're right. I looked at fxe2, f2, Rf8, etc. and I think we have good answers for each move.

[Abstract Actuary]

veerus/AA:
And if black doesn't do 34...f3? What if they move their rook or queen instead?

So . . .
32. Rhe1 Bh4
33. R1e2 Rf7
34. Qh5 ???

Other than f3, we either win their bishop or play Re8.

If you mean before Rf7, so . . .
32. Rhe1 Bh4
33. R1e2 ???

I don't see how they are going to prevent Re8 on the next move.

[Abstract Actuary]

Nine people in this game. If just THREE players PM me (not including the mod) saying they want to continue playing within 72 hours, I'll figure out what to do with it. If I don't get the asked for messages within that time, I'm going to put this never-ending game out of its misery.

Yeah? Yeah.

PM sent.

[Abstract Actuary]

Alright.

Rhe1

[Abstract Actuary]

Do we want to revisit the lines we discussed yesterday? I couldn't find anything new for black that I didn't mention yesterday, but it is a dicey position. Here is the conversation from "yesterday".

Emp: We've already won the d pawn, and there is nothing they can do about it. So we don't need to take it this move. Rh5 makes it so they can't play f3+ and it goes after an additional pawn (their passed pawn, by way of forcing them to move their bishop). But it with their most recent move, I think they get our g pawn in return, so not a big gain for us.

Rhe1 doesn't win the queen.

In fact, following on what Emp suggested . . .

32. Rhe1 Bh4
33. R1e2 Rf7
34. . . . f3


After all of this, I'm thinking Rh5 is still best. It isn't dynamic, but is a slow and steady way to win the game.

32. Rhe1 Bh4
33. R1e2 Rf7
34. Qh5 f3
35. Re8 ...doesn't matter

32. Rhe1 Bh4
33. R1e2 Rf7
34. Qh5 f3
35. Re8 ...doesn't matter

Boy that is a dicey position, but I think you're right. I looked at fxe2, f2, Rf8, etc. and I think we have good answers for each move.

[Abstract Actuary]

Ok.

Move: R1e2

[Abstract Actuary]

Hmmm, I just tried to get it to work using the codes, too, and I couldn't. Seems like a bug. It wasn't programmed to handle a number indicator. It is definitely a legal move, so you can send it in to night and submit the problem to support while they are debating their move.

[Abstract Actuary]

I have a request for the mod. Once the game is over (black resigns). Leave it open for a couple of days before revealing the roles. I'd like to hear everyone's guesses on who was black. (and formulate and make some of my own).

Move: Re8

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

You guys are totally right. I was thinking this was the continuation that me and (I forgot who) discussed a couple of days ago, but it isn't quite the same. Black forgot the intermediate move Rf7.

Move: Qxf3

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

You guys are totally right. I was thinking this was the continuation that me and (I forgot who) discussed a couple of days ago, but it isn't quite the same. Black forgot the intermediate move Rf7.

Move: Qxf3

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

You guys are totally right. I was thinking this was the continuation that me and (I forgot who) discussed a couple of days ago, but it isn't quite the same. Black forgot the intermediate move Rf7.

Move: Qxf3

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

You guys are totally right. I was thinking this was the continuation that me and (I forgot who) discussed a couple of days ago, but it isn't quite the same. Black forgot the intermediate move Rf7.

Move: Qxf3

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

You guys are totally right. I was thinking this was the continuation that me and (I forgot who) discussed a couple of days ago, but it isn't quite the same. Black forgot the intermediate move Rf7.

Move: Qxf3

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

You guys are totally right. I was thinking this was the continuation that me and (I forgot who) discussed a couple of days ago, but it isn't quite the same. Black forgot the intermediate move Rf7.

Move: Qxf3

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

You guys are totally right. I was thinking this was the continuation that me and (I forgot who) discussed a couple of days ago, but it isn't quite the same. Black forgot the intermediate move Rf7.

Move: Qxf3

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

You guys are totally right. I was thinking this was the continuation that me and (I forgot who) discussed a couple of days ago, but it isn't quite the same. Black forgot the intermediate move Rf7.

Move: Qxf3

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

You guys are totally right. I was thinking this was the continuation that me and (I forgot who) discussed a couple of days ago, but it isn't quite the same. Black forgot the intermediate move Rf7.

Move: Qxf3

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

You guys are totally right. I was thinking this was the continuation that me and (I forgot who) discussed a couple of days ago, but it isn't quite the same. Black forgot the intermediate move Rf7.

Move: Qxf3

[Abstract Actuary]

Unmove

You guys are totally right. I was thinking this was the continuation that me and (I forgot who) discussed a couple of days ago, but it isn't quite the same. Black forgot the intermediate move Rf7.

Move: Qxf3

[Abstract Actuary]

Wow. Hopefully you guys get the point! (hopefully some mod can come and clean this up). Mafiascum kept taking forever and never resolved after I hit submit, so I thought the post didn't go through. Sorry.

[Abstract Actuary]

Qxf3 is bad.:
34. Qxf3 Rxg4
35. Re8 Rxd4+
36. Kc1 Bg5+ and then we lose *our* queen.

Look, put yourselves in Black shoes. What do they want? To prolong the game with a chance for counterplay.
*Black* would love to sac a pawn for that opportunity.
*White* wants to forces trades of as much material as possible to a superior endgame.

Stop being greedy and stalling and finding ways that might prolong and lose a won game.

(Besides, if it's an extra pawn you want, I'm fairly certain we can get one after the RR/QP trade.)

Good catch. Rxd4 is a pretty sweet combo. Totally missed that.

Unmove, Move: Re8

[Abstract Actuary]

What's the current vote count?

[Abstract Actuary]

2.Votecounts are also not necessary in this game recently seeing as almost all decisions can be counted by yourself.

What's the current vote count?

Apparently they're necessary for at least

some

of the players.

3.I have failed at setting deadlines

Is this something you're planning to rectify? I seriously don't understand what's happening here...

I'm on record as wanting to kill this game when it was just a wee thing of 7 months...now it's up to 16 (SIXTEEN!111) months old. Last time I tried, several of you said that it's "almost over anyway" and that was about 7 weeks ago. Do you all

really

want to keep playing? I don't think I can find another mod for this and you're all but guaranteed to lose another player.

Is there a reason you want this game dead? Does it slow down the server (I've noticed this thread is slow). I just want to finish it for the sake of winning the chess game and then ultimately find out who was on which side.

I think the mod is doing alright, I would just put in faster deadlines. Most of us who are keeping up with the game make a post and vote within the first 2 or 3 days of the game-day. Just make a 1 week deadline. Push it back if there is serious discussion going on, if not, push the game along.

[Abstract Actuary]

Oh, fine. I resign from moderating this game. Meme can do what she wants with it. If she ends it, then I'll post the roles and all that jazz.

Thanks! This is probably going to look great on your resume!

[Abstract Actuary]

I'm committed to finishing this game out. I like to finish things I start.

I didn't think MafiaSSK was a particularly terrible mod, as others have expressed, although I think the quality was going down and I think part of the deterioration of this game has been due to the modding. But to me, "abandoning" a game as a moderator is pretty much an ultimate sin. And I was under the impression to even be a moderator on this site you need to have a "resume", so I was just commenting that an abandoned game as a moderator is going to look awful on his "resume".

[Abstract Actuary]

Ok, so what is the plan? Try to keep the game going ourselves and PM MeMe whenever a move decision is reached? Or someone on black with some integrity/mod experience PM MeMe and request Mod powers over this thread (to lock it and update moves).

I think option 2 or getting a new Mod is the only way this is actually going to work.

[Abstract Actuary]

Ok, so does that mean a majority will be reached with a different number of players? Can you make those rules completely clear?


Back to the game. There are aspects about both moves that I don't like. Re8 has the advantage of removing all counterplay. [[R1e2 is still causing problems, so I had to work around it in the move history.]]

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Rxg5 29. hxg5 Bxg5 30. Re5 Qg8 31. Qf5 Rg7 32. Rhe1 Bh4 33. Qe4 Qf8 34. Re2 Qg8 35. Qf5 f3 36. Re8 fxe2 37. Rxg8 Kxg8 38. Kxe2

Whereas Qxf3 leads to some dicey positions. Can someone walk me through our responses after

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Rxg5 29. hxg5 Bxg5 30. Re5 Qg8 31. Qf5 Rg7 32. Rhe1 Bh4 33. Qe4 Qf8 34. Re2 Qg8 35. Qf5 f3 36. Qxf3 Rxg4 37. Qxd5 Bg5

[Abstract Actuary]

I agree to that.

[Abstract Actuary]

I was going to refrain from commenting until we figured out our administrative plan, but I think we should try to push the game along. If we can trade down and eliminate their attacking chances then I think Black will resign.

And AA, in the 2nd scenario, pretty sure 37. Re8 is the right move with Kd3 as the escape after Bg5.

They would play Rxd4 before they played Bg5, which is why we play Qxd5 instead of Re8. After Re8 Rxd4+ we are in some serious trouble.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Rxg5 29. hxg5 Bxg5 30. Re5 Qg8 31. Qf5 Rg7 32. Rhe1 Bh4 33. Qe4 Qf8 34. Re2 Qg8 35. Qf5 f3 36. Qxf3 Rxg4 37. Re8 Rxd4

[Abstract Actuary]

Actually I think one active black player could definitely cause the long nights. He sends something out, waits a few days before his black counterpart (who is largely inactive in the thread) responds with their analysis, then they make the move, a few painstaking exchanges later. Also, another possible culprit which makes any speculation pretty pointless is that the mod was just inactive about ending night.

[Abstract Actuary]

Mr. Black, can you continue to post the board after each move. I'm still having trouble with the R1e2 move that it won't allow, but the workaround I used earlier does the trick. So you can start with this, if you'd like.

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Rxg5 29. hxg5 Bxg5 30. Re5 Qg8 31. Qf5 Rg7 32. Rhe1 Bh4 33. Qe4 Qf8 34. Re2 Qg8 35. Qf5 f3 36. Re8 Bg5

We have to play Kd3 here.

Move: Kd3

Move Count

Kd3 (4): Herodotus, EmpTyger, Thok, Abstract Actuary

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Rxg8+

Move Count
Rxg8+ 5

- veerus, Sudo_Nym, Herodotus, EmpTyger, Abstract Actuary


Thanks to Mr. Black and everyone else. This game is moving along nicely, now.

[Abstract Actuary]

Qxd5 looks good to me. I'll let others check in and vote if needed.

Thanks to all for replacing. At the current pace we should wrap this up rather quickly.

[Abstract Actuary]

Kxe2 is the best move right now. I don't think the queen check then take the pawn is that bad, but it isn't optimal. Realistically they can't threaten very much with the Bishop and Rook, especially if we keep the queen away from the king. And our queen is about to wreak havoc on the remaining pawns of black, so I don't want to bring it back to e2 to take the pawn.

Move: Kxe2

Move Count:
(3) Kxe2 - Thok, Indigo Heron, Abstract Actuary

[Abstract Actuary]

I prefer Qf5. Qc5 allows them to reposition their bishop to a better square.

If we do my move, we check the king, then the rook will be drawn out to defend it, then we get to take the rook.

Haylen. . . . Geez. Come on. This is so ridiculous. Is this the only move for Black? To lose their rook? So why would they play it???? If you see a line where either side loses major material, the conclusion is that they wouldn't make the preceding move(s) if there is any alternative.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Qf5

Move Count:

Qf5 (3) - Indigo Heron, veerus, Abstract Actuary
Qc5 (1) - Haylen

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: d5

Move Count

d5 (2) - Sudo_Nym, Abstract Actuary
Qd7 (1) - Indigo Heron

[Abstract Actuary]

I like Qc5, except that it leaves our g pawn vulnerable. Our queen's current square is extremely powerful. Protecting a lot of our vulnerable squares and stifling blacks pieces significantly.

[Abstract Actuary]

I like Qc5, except that it leaves our g pawn vulnerable. Our queen's current square is extremely powerful. Protecting a lot of our vulnerable squares and stifling blacks pieces significantly.

Not much more to say. People may be missing the impact and existence of the 'stifling' aspect of our queen's current square.

[Abstract Actuary]

I like Kd3. Ke3 is a black square and on an open file making the king at risk of both of their remaining pieces. Granted, it isn't at risk of either of them at the moment, but since we have a choice we want to make sure that is never a problem for us.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Kd3

movecount:

Ke3 (2) - veerus, EmpTyger
Qe5 (1) - Haylen
Kd3 (1) - Abstract Actuary

[Abstract Actuary]

I actually have some ideas for how to make this game run much more smoothly (and be a better combination of chess and mafia) that I've been thinking of running on another site I play mafia on. I wouldn't run it again with the current rule set.


Anyhow, I much prefer Qe5.

[Abstract Actuary]

I check this game (nearly) every morning, so there is never a need to prod me. If there is nothing new to say from my last post then I don't post anything. Generally when I make a post on a day it contains a sufficient amount of content, including my opinion of the position and the potential moves. Today is a bit different, mostly because all the moves are really unclear to me. My strength is endgames, but not unbalanced major material endgames and I'm having trouble figuring out what both sides plan is going to be from here on out. Thus, my moves are centered around moving our king and queen to the most impactful squares that have the least weaknesses.

Maybe this will help me. If it doesn't compromise our plan, what is our strategy for the point where black has all three of its remaining "pieces" in a bunch in the middle with all of its pawns protected? Attempt to break up the queenside pawns and get two advancing passed pawns? I'm not seeing how we can force the issue with just our king, queen and one passed pawn, at the moment. I think because of the value of our only material piece (the queen) we have very little ability to kick their pieces off of key squares.

So maybe Qd7 is the best move, with the idea to try to keep their three pieces from getting to the blockade squares.

[Abstract Actuary]

Based on my earlier conclusion.

Move: Qd7

Move Count

2 Qe4 (Thok, veerus)
2 Qd7 (EmpTyger, Abstract Actuary)
1 Qc8 (Indigo Heron)
1 Qg5+ (Sudo_Nym)

[Abstract Actuary]

My first instinct was g5 as well, but I was really hoping to hear from Emp before we got into it. But it isn't worth it to waste the day waiting for him. So maybe give him until the end of today?

[Abstract Actuary]

Alright, well I thought we were going to get something more powerful than that. I care enough to look back at the wording in the original post, but this isn't all that devastating of a move. However, I do agree it is our best move.

Move: Ke4

Movecount

2 Ke4 (EmpTyger, Abstract Actuary)

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Ke5

Not really much else to even consider. Moving the queenside pawns, maybe? Anyway, seems pretty cut and dry to me from here.

Movecount

Ke5

- 2 (Herodotus, Abstract Actuary)

[Abstract Actuary]

I think the next phase of our plan is to start pushing the queenside pawns and gain another passed pawn or won pawn, with which to force the issue. I would choose between c3 and a3, but I lean towards a3.

Move: a3

Movecount

a3

- 1 (Abstract Actuary)

[Abstract Actuary]

Actually, I just found a better follow up then I saw before, and I now prefer c3. No need to expand now, but I will after this move.

Unmove, Move c3

Movecount:

c3

- 2 (Sudo_Nym, Abstract Actuary)

[Abstract Actuary]

Hope everything is alright and you feel better soon.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: bxc3

Movecount

bxc3

- 3 (Indigo Heron, Thok, Abstract Actuary)

[Abstract Actuary]

veerus and Sudo, why did you not vote for bxc3 here? Especially you, Sudo, you just talked about speeding the game up. So let's do it.

[Abstract Actuary]

Although this changes our plans, I think it improved our position and based on where I think it will go from here, I prefer Kf4.

Move: Kf4

[Abstract Actuary]

Meh. I don't think a full fledged discussion is necessary. There are some potential blunders to be made in this upcoming move for black, that I would rather not eliminate for them. If you see a problematic response to Kf4, go ahead and post it. We may not even need to spell it out if there is a good response for white and enough of us see it without showing our cards.

Just to restate my stance, I don't think Kd4 is bad, but I think Kf4 is better, at the moment. They both probably lead to long-term wins, but Kf4 could win much faster.

[Abstract Actuary]

I'm not seeing anything devastating for black after Kf4. The best move I can find for them is countered by simply moving our king back to its current spot. Every other move I can see leads to a very strong situation for us. Kd4 and Ke4 are both longer term weaknesses. We have two avenues for attack from here, and Kf4 is stronger for both of them, because our queen could need to move in both of them, and we don't want to give up the pawn that leads to check.

[Abstract Actuary]

I'm considering our long term plan, and I think not having the g pawn protected will be a detriment to both long term plans I have in mind.

I understand what my response implied. I didn't heavily imply it, because it is very possible they have something else in mind, which I'd like to see. If they don't, then we can reevaluate at that time and still make the Kd4 move.

[Abstract Actuary]

If the only downfall of Kf4 would be that we have to wait a move to get a second chance to play Kd4, then I don't see why we wouldn't play Kf4.

[Abstract Actuary]

I don't really know what to do here. If our plan is to play Kd3, I wish we would have played Kf4, because the same move I was worried about then, is now still a threat.

[Abstract Actuary]

what's wrong with c4?

We want to keep the c pawn so we have connected passed pawns, ultimately.

[Abstract Actuary]

This was an interesting experiment. It failed. gg all.

move: draw

Rather than voting for a draw, wouldn't we just change it into a mafia game and start lynching? veerus, just shot to #1 on my suspect list.

I've lost a little bit of motivation because I just don't see what our plan is anymore. I had a couple of plans, but now they both seem compromised and weaker.

I guess I support Kd3.

Move: Kd3

[Abstract Actuary]

Chances are we'll be playing Qf5 next move, according to my analysis.

[Abstract Actuary]

Losing motivation is not the same thing as giving up (voting for a draw). When White has a very good chance at winning through chess and at least a 50/50 chance of winning, if not better, by simply switching to straight mafia, voting for a draw doesn't make sense. It seems to me like something scum would do to try to improve their projected outcome.

When is the deadline?

[Abstract Actuary]

c4 is bad. Our best chance is to have connect passed pawns and c4 gives that opportunity away. Kd3 is the first step towards getting a second passed pawn.

[Abstract Actuary]

In order to get a second passed pawn we need to remove the b pawn. The king on d4 puts a wrench in that plan for one reason. Also, we could get rid of the b pawn by using the king to help, the first step of which is Kd3.

Regardless of how Kd3 helps us achieve that goal, c4 immediately ends it, thus c4 should be unvoted.

[Abstract Actuary]

Man, I really wish this eliminating the b-pawn exchange didn't have to happen. Sucks.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Qf5+

I'm going to be V/LA from 6/14-6/22

[Abstract Actuary]

A lot of us saw Rd6 coming. It was the unspoken move that Thok and I were discussing the last couple of moves. It disrupts our position and our prior plan and isn't ideal, but it isn't deadly.

[Abstract Actuary]

I prefer Qe4, although Qh5 is decent. Qe4 protects all three pawns, can't be kicked easily and protects the a4 square. Qh5 defends against the king moving to e8, but it isn't that big of a concern right now.

Move: Qe4

Move Count

(2) Qh5+: SaintKerrigan, Haylen
(2) Qe4: Herodotus, Abstract Actuary

[Abstract Actuary]

I don't see much threat or value in moving to h7. Our queen is positioned well now.

Move: Kc2

Move Count

(3) Kc2: SaintKerrigan , veerus, Abstract Actuary

[Abstract Actuary]

I'm here. Kb3 may be played in the future, but may not be necessary, depending on their line. a4 is necessary.

Move: a4

[Abstract Actuary]

I lean towards Kb3. My ultimate goal remains connected passed pawns on the c and d file.

[Abstract Actuary]

What would be the point of that combination? Kb3's value is protecting a4. Once we play axb5 the king has no where to go from b3.

[Abstract Actuary]

For some reason this game has grinded to a halt again.

Move: Kb3

Count

Kb3 - 2 (veerus, Abstract Actuary)

[Abstract Actuary]

I prefer Qd4, though I'm not sure what are plan is from here. It is better than axb5, though.

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Qd4

[Abstract Actuary]

I'm thinking Qd3.

[Abstract Actuary]

Board position in first post isn't updated.

I'm really liking axb5 right about now. I'll hold off on a vote while I stew on that move (and others; a5 is the other move that interests me, but axb5 seems much stronger for white).

I'm not seeing the benefit of Qd3 at the moment.

Qd3 has a benefit that we need black to miss, otherwise it just stalls a bit. No harm done. We still have both of your options after this move. Speaking of those options, what is your plan after that? After either one of those moves I see no clear plan for white.

[Abstract Actuary]

If we're taking requests, can we get the letters and numbers put back around the outside of the board?

Ok, I do see some value to axb5 axb5, Qc5, but from what I can tell it doesn't actually win a pawn, but it does give us connected passed pawns. But it is at the expense of a passed pawn for black. I think that would put the game into a bit of a rat race between the passed pawns and their king is positioned a lot better than ours.

I wouldn't call "being back at square 1" a "huge problem". A bit of an overstatement. Also, Qd3 doesn't screw up axb5. In fact it threatens it more severely. But now that you've let the cat out of the bag it is pointless. Yes, black can just play Rb6 again, in which case we can just play Qd4 again. And if black doesn't play Rb6 we win a pawn. That kind of opportunity is a no risk, huge reward situation for us (albeit with small chance of that reward). Not sure why that is so hard to figure out.

[Abstract Actuary]

Very nice. Didn't see that check.

Move: axb5

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Qc5

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Qxb5

[Abstract Actuary]

Move: Qb6+

[Abstract Actuary]

I looked into a bit a little. I don't think we have a way to force it, but it could definitely happen. The check we are starting with is a great place to start. Also, this was a positional thing that we didn't want to tip them off about.

[Abstract Actuary]

What do you mean by White having a huge advantage? In a pure chess sense, because they move first? In a game with players below Master level, that advantage is almost nothing. Also, in terms of the chess aspect of this particular chess-mafia game, I think the mafia has a huge advantage. They can devise plans and openly discuss with one another what they are, whereas town doesn't have that luxury, because any planning they do in the thread will be fruitless unless it is unstoppable. So basically, town's only chance is to play solid positional chess, whereas Black can attempt attacks, tactics, etc. I think White was able to win this game, simply because the chess players on the mafia team were not our stronger players (no offense intended).

Honestly, I don't have much of a guess at who is mafia. I started out taking some notes trying to figure it out, but once White gained an advantage in the game, I stopped caring about who was mafia completely and just concentrated on the chess game.

I would guess that Thok and Herodotus aren't mafia simply because they were the ones working with me the most to solidify white's position, but then again, at that point the game was just about lost for Black and they may have been doing that as a final sell that they were town, in case we decided to make it interesting and start lynching.

As for Chess Mafia 2, I have some pretty good ideas for how to make this more of a hybrid game and force the action. I was thinking each piece captured gave that side the right to kill someone. So when white captures a piece they can lynch someone (or pass) and when black captures a piece they can nightkill someone. The number of players would be crucial, because you wouldn't want it to get to a point where Black can sacrifice their queen for a pawn to get the final nightkill. Also, if it is a big enough game, I was thinking pawns=1 kill, minor pieces=2 kills, major pieces=3 kills.

[Abstract Actuary]

One benefit of the game I describe above is that it shouldn't be boring chess. With each move the sides must not only consider the chess aspects of the variations but the killing that goes along with it. At times it may be beneficial for lynching and at times black may be willing to sacrifice to get a night kill, etc.

Other possibilities:
1. Ignore pawns (for capture=kill purposes)
2. Make checks result in a kill or some other special power (could be in coordination with capture=kill or not).
3. Roles. Obviously, this is always an option but certain roles could prevent the Q for P sacrifice from black
4. Assign each player to a specific piece (minor or major or even random pawn, I guess). When that piece is killed, that player dies in the game. Obviously, checkmate is a win for that side.

1. Ignore pawns

[Abstract Actuary]

I'm disappointed that we didn't last quite long enough to set the biggest newbie record (we'd need 6 pages of discussion to do that, which would be excessive).

That said, I can understand black resigning now, the next move by white was going to hurt black hard (and despite what veerus might have said, QxP wasn't the correct move.)

I don't think we could win their rook by force, but they would have had to play it perfectly to avoid it.

[Abstract Actuary]

For starters, I think that the town is the one with the advantage, because they've got more brains to collaborate among- the fact that their reasoning is public doesn't really hurt them all that much- "solid positional game" is still a good game, discussed publically or not. The scum can't influence the town into a bad move, because there's too high a chance they'll get caught, with so many brains analyzing.

Second, tying kills directly to captures is probably going to be unbalancing, but it's a start.

Well you know we disagree on the first point.

For the second, I'd be interested to see why you think it would be unbalancing.

[Abstract Actuary]

Sure, I agree with both lines posted. All three lines are winning in very similar timespans.

[Abstract Actuary]

As Herodotus said, any idea where a single player ultimately gets to make the move for white will be game breaking and render the chess useless. One move for White made by Black, even if it sacrifices that player effectively ends the chess game.

The 10 moves/lynch idea is a decent one. I like it and my own because it provides some mixed incentives for the chess game. Instead of just playing chess with the goal of capturing the king the players may have incentives to slow down or speed up the game, make it a closed game or open game (encourage captures), etc. This will make the chess more interesting and also make it so that ultimately the mafia-aspect of the game will be more important.

[Abstract Actuary]

I don't check any of the forums so someone post a link in here or PM me if there are plans to start a second version of this.