Mini 852- Crayola Catastrophe Game Over (Post 1158)

[elvis_knits]

Hi all!

I'll read up tomorrow morning, and get posting.

[elvis_knits]

Hello again!

Please nobody kill me again before I get to post actual content.

I only skimmed half the game, not taking notes, since I wasn't sure I would see morning. Luckily, I have been reincarnated as dark red. So now I have to pay a bit more attention to the game. I will post thoughts later today.

Pretty sure from the above post that Shanba is scum though. Buddies to chamber, affirms that SoG wagon was good except for the end because he wants to blame budja and chibo. And then connects me to budja because budja didn't agree with an attack on me... some BS reasoning that since the attack was weak, we are likely scum together? Why assume we're scum, rather than , oh say, budja saw weak reasoning and disagreed with it?

Shanba's brand of reasoning is divisive, discouraging town from picking on a bad attack lest they be accused of being scum buddies. If Shanba agrees that it was a weak attack against me, then what Budja did was perfectly natural.

And if me and Budja are so scummy together, why is he voting Chibo?

I call shenanigans.

I also think that discussing scum buddies TOO much is a scum tactic. Noticing relationships between players is a good thing, but noticing a connection between two players should not be the basis for thinking they're both scum. It is simply not enough and too open to manipulation. Possible scum connections should only be supporting evidence, until such time as somebody flips scum. That is the only time that we should get too far into scum buddy talk, when we have something concrete. Otherwise it is a fallacy.

Oh, and BTW, Shanba replaced snowbunny who hammered instead of allowing me to play the game as manzcar. Didn't want a replacement coming in and changing the lynch, did she? Not when she knew the lynch was not on any of the scum team. Push that baby through and NK me... much easier for them.

And another thing, did anyone else notice how Shanba blames the end of the lynch, conveniently not mentioning his part in it, how snowbunny's hammer was probably the worst vote of them all?

Man, I found so many reasons to vote Shanba, and I haven't even read through the thread closely.

I guess I will hold off my vote until I finish the read, but... I'm pretty sure SHANBA IS SCUM.

[elvis_knits]

Chamber was replaced but the player slot is not dead. If you're saying chamber wagon was bad and he's town, then you're saying zazie is town too.

If you are a fan of people defending each other what makes budja commenting on an attack on me a scummy thing? I'm sure there are lots of other instances throughout the game of people doing similar things. So what makes this one worthy of comment and condemnation above all others?

I agree you only mentioned the one horrible argument about scum buddies. Is that "too much"? You decide.

I was more thinking that I didn't like your comments because of this part of my arguments:

noticing a connection between two players should not be the basis for thinking they're both scum

[elvis_knits]

Since you're declaring yourself as a townie here, mind telling us which one?

People don't claim unless they're about to be lynched. Asking him to is scummy. Even if I do think Shanba's scummy, this is wrong.

Congratulations, you have now made me think maybe Shanba is town.

[elvis_knits]

Since you're declaring yourself as a townie here, mind telling us which one?

People don't claim unless they're about to be lynched. Asking him to is scummy. Even if I do think Shanba's scummy, this is wrong.

Congratulations, you have now made me think maybe Shanba is town

.

[elvis_knits]

Well, I hate that now I am in the position to defend Shanba...

But WTF do you expect him to to? Whether he knows he's town or he has to pretend to know he's town, of course he will blame snowbunny's actions on her and not her role. And there's only so much a replacement can do to explain their predecessor's actions.

[elvis_knits]

I agree with EK in that this was not necessary, and also a bit scummy, but I don't like her last sentence. Why do you think this, EK?

I don't think shanba is obvtown or anything. But the fact that chibo seems to be rolefishing hard makes me think shanba

may

be town. You know, that he's the victim of rolefishing-scum-chibo.

[elvis_knits]

Yeah, maybe.

[elvis_knits]

Shanba in either of those situations I probably ignore my scum buddy. But maybe that's just me. Well, I might buss my buddy in scenario where it's a good case, and ignore the whole thing in a weak case. Why leave a trail when the case probably amounts to nothing?

However, this is largely WIFOM.

I think I need to read the whole game in order to be sure what I think.

I agree you only mentioned the one horrible argument about scum buddies. Is that "too much"? You decide.

1) it's not a horrible argument. I've given my side of this, you have yet to give yours. Please do so.
2) it's not the only reason I suspect these players.

What do you mean I haven't given my side? Didn't this start with my side... What is it you need me to explain?

It seemed like a substantial part of your case to me. The only other part of your case being that they helped lynch a jester. Which you also did, BTW.

Also, I didn't.

I'm not sure what you dislike about joshlyman, so it seemed like you were condemning me based on budja defending me slightly. And you were saying he was scum for helping lynch a jester. If I'm misunderstanding this, let me know.

And everyone else is either riding EK's coattails or referencing the hammer. I'd like everyone to have more suspicions than just me even if I do get lynched today, so that there's some room for some actual analysis. Top 2 scummiest players please, everyone.

This is a good idea. We should be thinking about everyone in the game.

[elvis_knits]

ooh, I've managed to slightly shock shanba.

[elvis_knits]

DAMMIT I was typing up my big readup post and pressed back to look at the last page and lost it.

REwrite...

Scummy:
Pome
*Generally does nothing, her posts amount to active lurking as she says nothing in them
*Scum list in post 209 was one big waffle of unhelpfullness
*She stays in RVS until post 109 when she unvotes but doesn't place a real vote. That type of post has a name. It's called "Most useless post ever."
*Then she doesn't place a vote until her big waffle scum list in 209 where she votes SoG. Which is not an impressive vote to me. It's not like voting SoG was going out on a limb.
*I disliked post 45 because she says kirby was "twisting her words" when it really looked to me like a typo to me even before kirby said it was a typo.

Budja
*Guy is on every bandwagon, and in a scummy way, like he's taking the easy way out and voting easy targets. Page 1 greendude racism wagon. Chamber hatewagon. SoG jesterwagon. He gets on these easy wagons without even doing any hard work or attacking.
*Also he said "null" on Pome's horrible waffle scumlist post.

Neutral/conflicted:
Shanba
*SB lurktastic then ISO's SoG to make vote. Like she wasn't reading the game, only ISOed SoG to make a case cause she wanted to vote him.
*SB hammer was bad, but I see now could have been accidental. Although trying to blame chibo is pretty scummy. I dislike the fact that SB ISOed SoG with the intent of voting him. That's the scummiest part of the whole thing (since the hammer was perhaps accidental).
*However, the fact that he said he didn't think Chibo was rolefishing last page, when IMO chibo was, and Shanba could have easily agreed to strengthen his case... seems like something scum would not do. It makes me rethink. I think that atleast some of the stuff flying at shanba is crap, which makes me reevaluate.

Zazie
*I had a town read on chamber and know him as a player. I have no problem with his playstyle and found him consistent.
*Some of the things zazie said I don't agree with, I wasn't particularly in agreement with his scumlist in post160.
*Zazie spearheaded the SoG wagon, which I guess could mean anything, but it did steer the town toward a non-scum lynch.
*Called the scumteam as Sog (no), Pome (I think yes), and manzcar (no)
*Harped on Joshlyman because he called his RVS vote "semi" random.
*I've played in a number of games with zazie recently and always get the uber-lurker zazie. I have seen him do the spamfest participation in other games but never experienced it until now. I don't understand why zazie is so different in some games -- zazie, can you explain why you either lurk to replacement or go into spam overdrive? I don't understand.

Chibo
*Fourth vote on the page 1 greendude racist bandwagon, unvotes when people call him a hypocrite. Nobody seemed to care that he put a fourth vote on while copying everyone's reason of "yellow too hard to read." This just struck me as opportunist newb scum.
*Pushed to lynch chamber rather than give replacement a chance, which I find scummy, but I got the feeling that he wanted to do it because he really thought that chamber was scum and knew the allignment carries over... not because of the policy lynch thing.
*I just generally get the feeling that he believes what he's saying and not trying to trump stuff up, even though I find myself disagreeing with him a lot. Maybe like he's just inexperienced?
*This is basically my gut does not agree with my brain on him, so I have him neutral.

Town
Sociopath
kirby
nacho - 257 was so right on it's not funny, sadly he backs off this quickly
greendude

My town people are not OMG-I'M-SO-SURE reads, and some not even for such specific reason. They are basically people who have not pinged my scumdar, or that I have a gut town read on them for some reason. If anyone wants me to elaborate, I can try.

[elvis_knits]

This may be useless speculation, but I'm wondering what people think...

Do people think scum or town are more likely to want to lynch the jester?

Do you think SoG was acting like a jester? I actually thought he was town for a long time (lol). Certain things he did I consider scummy, like not wanting policy lynches and then going for one on zazie. But otherwise I thought he sounded sort of reasonable, atleast in the earlier posts.

What was SoG's strategy?

(I guess what I am wondering is if it was his strategy to try to attack scum and elicit their attack that way, as a defense of themselves, but also of their buddies).

Perhaps we can't ever know any of this until endgame when we ask him, but it's just something I was thinking about, watching the dynamics of how his lynch went down.

If this is stupid, we don't want to waste too much time on it, but I just wanted to throw it out there in case it could be helpful.

[elvis_knits]

Oh and

vote pome

[elvis_knits]

No comments on my catch-up post?



I worked so hard.

[elvis_knits]

LEt's just compromise and lynch pome.

[elvis_knits]

Pome
*Generally does nothing, her posts amount to active lurking as she says nothing in them
*Scum list in post 209 was one big waffle of unhelpfullness
*She stays in RVS until post 109 when she unvotes but doesn't place a real vote. That type of post has a name. It's called "Most useless post ever."
*Then she doesn't place a vote until her big waffle scum list in 209 where she votes SoG. Which is not an impressive vote to me. It's not like voting SoG was going out on a limb.
*I disliked post 45 because she says kirby was "twisting her words" when it really looked to me like a typo to me even before kirby said it was a typo.

*I generally lurk as town. In the one game where I was scum,( Mini 844,) I was fairly active compared with my normal meta. It's the way I play the game.
*I'm sorry you saw it that way.
*I forgot to unvote; I even mentioned in that post that I forgot about my RV, so I don't see what you're criticizing.
*Wait, so I'm not allowed to vote for someone I see as scummy, even if there is a wagon on him? Moreover, there was nothing wrong with everyone else's vote, yet there was a problem with mine?
*Well, he based a somewhat random vote based off of it, so I thought he'd looked at it correctly. Also, I knew it was likely it was a typo, and that's why I asked him. I didn't mean to accuse him; I wanted him to clarify that he hadn't twisted my words.

SO who do you think is scum now?

Most of my points just go to one thing -- you are not scum hunting. So while you may have individual excuses for some of it, I just want to tell you that it doesn't seem like you are trying to find scum, IMO. Overall, I don't think you're doing it.

Please tell me who you think is scum, as this could possibly make me rethink my assessment of you.

[elvis_knits]

So you would recommend to the town to lynch you immediately if Shanba turns up pro-town, right? If not, why not. Being that confident in scum or not-scum suggests something more than just a vanilla townie.

Gotta trust in how you play the game right? Sure, I'm game. Go for it. I'm just a vanilla townie but I'm confident that I've nailed a scum player here.

I think chibo is telling the truth.

However, please don't claim like this in the future.

I know nacho sort of goaded you into it, but it's not usually so good for the town to claim when you're not being run up to a lynch. It helps scum find power roles if they can narrow the field.

BTW, slight role-fishing tingles from nacho.

[elvis_knits]

Um I tend to believe Chibo because there was no benefit to him doing that as scum, IMO. I just know when I'm scum that I want to leave myself as open-ended as possible so that I can claim whatever I need to if things happen. I wouldn't want to commit to a claim unless I was forced to. Unless it's some kind of gambit, but I don't know what kind of gambit would involve claiming vanilla.

Basically his claim and reasoning are consistent. He thinks the snowbunny hammer guarantees us that shanba is scum. And he's too new to realize that "guarantee" makes most of us think of investigation and power roles.

This is not to say that I wouldn't challenge chibo if he said or did something I thought was scummy, but for now I tentatively believe him.

Nacho, why don't you believe him? Do you think he is scummy? If so, what are the reasons? Is it because of his claim, or other reasons?

---

In other news, Budja is still scum. He hid on easy wagons all D1, and the only original thought he's had all game is voting kirbyoshi, and I think kirby is town.

If Pome can do some scum hunting I'd like to move my vote to Budja.

[elvis_knits]

zazie is right about just about everything, but some of his lines of enquiry are pretty pointless (like asking green_dude if he really wanted his colour changed - I'm pretty sure he did!) In particular, though, I wanted to try and explain his attack on josh_lyman since I think he hasn't been entirely clear there: Josh's vote is for lurking, which josh explains as a jokevote - but in his post he says that it is only semi-random - which indicates that it can't be entirely random. I don't think this in and of itself is significant, but I do think the amount of time Josh spent debating on this and not talking about other, more important things is scummy.

My reason for asking GD that question wasn't to ask IF he asked the mod that, but WHY he asked the mod that question. The IF question was only asked as 'side track question'.
As for the part regarding Josh, it was because of the 'semi-'. As already stated, it was the first day it had started and Josh was the one who was almost last. Only the one who he voted posted later than Josh. Add that he hasn't pursued any other lurker that day, while stating he hates them. Those are the reasons why I don't like this vote.

As for your scum list, I say Josh (Now EK) and Pome in the scumteam. The third is one of the other three players you've mentioned.

I'm not following you zazie...

So what was the point of asking GD WHY he asked the mod if he could change his color? What would this indicate to you either way?

And I still don't understand the "semi" part and why you objected to it and josh lyman. And what have you thought of me since I joined? I've been much more active since taking over the player slot, so that should make it easier for you to judge allignment.

Also, I asked you why you are very active in some games and lurk hardcore in others. Can you explain?

[elvis_knits]

zazie, your posting is really rubbing me the wrong way how you seem to ask about stuff that is in some cases seems really obvious, and in others seems completely inconsequential.

It's making me not even want to answer anything that you've written because I have to sift through so much stupid stuff.

[elvis_knits]

Shanba, I thought you were scum at first but changed my mind. I really don't think you would saying "Chibo's not rolefishing" or "Don't hold chibo responsible for my lynch when I flip town" if you were scum. It would be totally easy for you to bury Chibo, or atleast throw some doubt his way, but you're not doing that. And I sure as hell would if I were you and I were scum.

I really want to turn your budja vote into a wagon but pome still isn't scum hunting so I can't unvote her

[elvis_knits]

Maybe Shanba is some devil of deception but I don't normally see scum accuse town of buddying to them.

I mean, when I'm scum I just thank God that I got a townie to agree with me and I let them do it all day long. I certainly don't discourage that behavior.

[elvis_knits]

lol, but I was actually talking about Shanba saying I'm buddying to him. I don't know why he would do that if he's scum.

[elvis_knits]

Scum list, plux.

[elvis_knits]

Scum list, plux.

Huh? (I dunno what plux is.

)

I want to know who you think is scum.

How many times do I have to ask?

[elvis_knits]

Pome, good job! I really like that list.

I'm sure I should care about reasons, like nacho just said, but I'm really just excited because it seems very reasonable.

unvote Pome, vote budja

[elvis_knits]

I wonder if it's a coincidence Shanba forgot to bold his budja vote and Pome didn't vote Budja at all.

[elvis_knits]

How come you didn't vote budja before he asked for replacement? He was at the top of your list but you weren't voting him or anyone else.

[elvis_knits]

Okay.

I just don't want us to lose momentum in this game. It's good to be careful, but it's bad to sit around and do nothing. And I mean that as a general statement to everyone.

[elvis_knits]

I HATE UUUUUUUU Sociopath!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111

DIE!

[elvis_knits]

Attempt?

Does that mean it isn't working??

[elvis_knits]

Wait, now I can't tell if you're serious or not.

[elvis_knits]

Just got prodded, but don't have any earth shattering things to post. Mainly waiting for Greeny and Zazie to do their catch up posts.

Why aren't you voting anyone?

[elvis_knits]

Because, as of now, no one seems scummy enough to warrant my vote. Budja is my top subject, but he hasn't even replaced in yet. And before you ask why I find him scummy, it's because he was scumhunting less than everyone else in the game, and when he voted, it was always after someone else had voted for that same person, and he never actually added anything to the cases other people made, so it seemed to me like he was just trying to skate along...

Look, being all careful and not lynching people before replacement is probably a good idea. But we can't have people sitting around, not voting, and just checking in to say "hey i've got nothing to say."

Failure to scum hunt is usually a sign of scumminess, but a lot of people are doing it this game which makes it harder to find the scum. So if everyone who is town could get their asses in gear and start giving their opinions and pressuring who they think is scum, that would make things much easier. It will force the scum to post more too which will increase our chances of catching them in lies/manipulation/misdirection. Or if they continue to post little content we can lynch them for that too. Either way works for me.

[elvis_knits]

Yeah I thought he was joking around about that. I mean, I understand if he gets better reads when people make attacks on him, but I don't know how you can ask people to make cases on you. If they don't think you're scum, do you want them to make stuff up? And if they make stuff up how are you going to be able to get a good read off that? I don't really get it, if it wasn't a joke.

[elvis_knits]

This is the weirdest thing I've ever heard of, and I weirdly think I'm buddying to you more now by humoring you than I was before. But here is my case on you:

Some exchanges with kirby and pome early in the game that were sort of useless joking or maybe buddying.

Wagoning chamber just because he has a non-standard playstyle. Which amounts to a policy lynch. Which is scummy. I also didn't like how you got mad at him for posting after asking for replacement. You said it might be a violation of site guidelines, which don't think it is. It seemed like you just wanted him gone from the game.

One of the things you said about SoG early was that he "went straight into scum hunting." Like that's a bad thing. I think that's a good thing -- to go straight into scum hunting.

Continuing to give Pome a break for no apparent reason. When she explains she has school and VLA issues you pipe up to commiserate how hard it is to post with school and such. WAH! Buddying to Pome.

Pulling the newbie card for chibo.

Those are the things I don't like about you despite my mostly pro-twon read of you. You've got to take everything into account, but those are the things I don't agree with.

[elvis_knits]

Chibo, you bring up snow bunny...

I noticed snowbunny is still on the site, playing in at least one other game.

I really don't know what I think of it. Basically I guess she got scared and ran away since she hammered at sort of a bad time and people gave her crap for it before lynch scene was even up.

But was she scared because she looked scummy and she's scum? Or because she looked scummy and she's not scum? I really hate when people replace out as scum for the sole reason that they are caught scum, and it's pretty much against the spirit of the game and I hope the mod wouldn't allow that. But if she gave him another excuse, what's he gonna do? I guess he could modkill her, but who knows what he would do? I have played before with a scumbuddy who asked to be replaced because he was under attack, and I knew that was his reason because I was his buddy, and I lynched him for it because I just don't think it's fair for people to do that.

I was sort of hoping that snowbunny got scared because she's not scum, especially since shanba has said some things I think are inconsistent with scum behavior.

But overall, I really don't know. I keep thinking about it, but I haven't come up with anything great.

[elvis_knits]

Bleh I saw snowbunny posting in like three games this morning...

If she did replace out because she was caught scum, that's horrible. I'd like to think a person wouldn't do that in the spirit of fair play, but perhaps I'm being naive. I mean, I have seen it before as I said, but I don't like to believe that many people would stoop so low.

I don't think the slip you quoted above is a slip though. How would Shanba have worded it differently? I think he would say it that way if he was town or scum.

If I believe snow bunny is scum I guess I have to believe that all the things that Shanba said to make me think he's town were said on purpose, or that I just took them the wrong way.

Oh, one more thing, chibo, you said that you put the vote on SoG to see if snow bunny would hammer. Which is sort of like you setting a trap for her. And I generally don't like traps and think most of the time scum are the ones who set traps. So that is another complication for me.

[elvis_knits]

I'm still conflicted. Shanba has said some things that are sort of like town-tells for me. Am I sure about that? No. But it makes me reluctant to vote him.

However, snowbunny was scummy. Primarily because she used an iso read of SoG to vote him in the first place. Doing an iso read of a player because people are voitng him and looking for ways for him to be scum is pretty biased. It's like you're going in with the intent of finding dirt (which you can on anybody), and you're doing it because other people are already voting the guy (so the idea doesn't come from you... you're just climbing onto their suspicions wihtout thinking for yourself).

Also the hammer was bad because I had just replaced in and it didn't give me a chance to read, so that was anti-town.

But I'm not sure how I feel about how everyone jumped on her BEFORE finding out he wasn't scum. I mean, if SoG had flipped scum, then there wouldn't be that much cause to be mad at snowbunny (still not allowing me to read and post was slightly anti-town, but I bet nobody would have cared if SoG had been scum). But some people were building a case against her before SoG even flipped. And I think it's a little weird if you're on the SoG wagon, you're supposed to think he's scum, so why get mad about the hammer before you know if it's good or bad? I want to look at people's comments to see if I think it looks like they knew SoG would not flip scum. Because if you're on the SoG wagon, you should still think he's gonna flip scum.

[elvis_knits]

Obviously someone who has suspicion on them from strong tells (from Snow Bunny) is going to have to go out of their way to say specific things that could be a town tell. To me at least, a slip up is a slip up.

If SB had not replaced, would you vote SB now?

Probably, since that would take away the town-tells.

[elvis_knits]

I am not voting shanba.

I decided.

I am very happy voting yankee/budja because he replaces in and doesn't read the thread but puts his vote on shanba. Going for the highest vote-getter without actually reading the thread is VERY scummy. And now he's challenging kirby over his sureness of their votes on shanba? In case yankee forgot -- he's voting shanba too. So why is he attacking people for voting the same person he's voting?? Because he doesn't actually think shanba is scum? Because he KNOWS shanba is not scum? Because he wants to make sure other people on the bandwagon look bad?

Also, please note the mention of a cop and role fishing in yankees post.

I am very much in agreement with most of what shanba has said (except the part where he thinks I'm linked ot yankee/budja which I don't see, but whatever, I don't really care). I think chibo and kirby are just tunnelling town. I think chibo seems sincere and I've played with kirby before recently and I think he's sincere too. I sense no manipulation from them. I just think they're wrong.

[elvis_knits]

I see there are some people not voting. Deadline is in three days.

Anyone who is not voting by deadline will earn my vote in future days. There is no excuse for being that lurky and unhelpful.

Anyone who does not get their ass in here and make a legitimate attempt to help the town scum hunt and reach a consensus should DIE.

[elvis_knits]

Hey yankee,

How about you tell me why you started attacking people who were voting shanba while you were voting shanba. Also, why were you role fishing?

[elvis_knits]

GAH.

More zazie spam.

It's so annoying.

[elvis_knits]

EK

- Do you think there's a difference between Pome in this game and Pome in Twilight Mafia (Mini 812)? If so, what?

I had to go look back at that game to refresh my memory since I have blocked it out. I forgot I played that game with her.

Um, I would say that it's not that different. I think she is sort of hesitant in both. That game was maybe her first? I think she was unsure of how to play and not too agressive. That behavior makes me weary, but she was a noob and town in that game. And the problems I have had with her in this game are similar -- that she doesn't vote enough or take strong enough action in scum hunting or giving reads. But honestly, it is similar to her other play.

You've made me think she's townier by making me look back at that game.

Zazie -- do you think she has played differently this game from twilight?

[elvis_knits]

I very much agree about zazie. He is 90% noise. I wish he would just post the stuff that actually is relevant.

[elvis_knits]

Noticed this gem amidst the flurry of crap:

Pome, good job! I really like that list.

I'm sure I should care about reasons, like nacho just said, but I'm really just excited because it seems very reasonable.

unvote Pome, vote budja

EK

, next time, make it a better reason if you need a reason to unvote your scumbuddy.
You asked for scumhunting! Scumhunting involves reasons. If you disagree, why?

Also, why did you vote Budja? And state your reasons. If you want to be lazy scum again, link to a post if you have already stated these reasons.

Are you calling me scum?

I asked for a scumlist actually, and that's what she gave me. Yes reasons are helpful and I do want them, but her list really jived with my thinking. It made me think she was townier.

As to my buja vote... READ THE THREAD.

Budja
*Guy is on every bandwagon, and in a scummy way, like he's taking the easy way out and voting easy targets. Page 1 greendude racism wagon. Chamber hatewagon. SoG jesterwagon. He gets on these easy wagons without even doing any hard work or attacking.
*Also he said "null" on Pome's horrible waffle scumlist post.

I have also given reasons why I don't like yankee:

I am very happy voting yankee/budja because he replaces in and doesn't read the thread but puts his vote on shanba. Going for the highest vote-getter without actually reading the thread is VERY scummy. And now he's challenging kirby over his sureness of their votes on shanba? In case yankee forgot -- he's voting shanba too. So why is he attacking people for voting the same person he's voting?? Because he doesn't actually think shanba is scum? Because he KNOWS shanba is not scum? Because he wants to make sure other people on the bandwagon look bad?

Also, please note the mention of a cop and role fishing in yankees post

.

[elvis_knits]

I am now willing to lynch zazie.

[elvis_knits]

I am now willing to lynch zazie.

I take this as you're going to continue to be lazy scum.
Reasons behind this statement?

Reasons are you are 90% noise and 9% wrong. That leaves 1% that might possibly be reasoning I could agree with. 90% noise is scummy because it gives the effect of scum hunting without actually helping. And the 9% of stuff that I think is wrong seems like you are using scummy and/or poor reasoning. Overall, I see no townie content from you.

I was going to make a post before outlining all the reasons your posting about me is BS, but got frustrated with you. My main bones with you are:

1)You have no other reason for calling me scum other than some supposed relationship to Pome. This is really bad because:
a)I was the only person really pressuring Pome for most of the day until you started voting her. So I don't even see how I could be her buddy.
b)We don't even know if Pome is scum so saying I'm her buddy is so much WIFOM. I've already made a post on this topic, but I don't think you read it. Here it is:

I also think that discussing scum buddies TOO much is a scum tactic. Noticing relationships between players is a good thing, but noticing a connection between two players should not be the basis for thinking they're both scum. It is simply not enough and too open to manipulation. Possible scum connections should only be supporting evidence, until such time as somebody flips scum. That is the only time that we should get too far into scum buddy talk, when we have something concrete. Otherwise it is a fallacy.

2)I don't like you calling me lazy when I'm one of the more active people in this game and you seem to go for long periods of time without posting and then flood the game with a lot of crap like asking Pome what "sitting" means. If anyone is lazy, it is you. Anyone can quote a bunch of posts and ask for more explanation.

3)After you drew my attention to the twilight game I think Pome is town here since she was town there. You disagree, saying you think her scumhunting here is fake. Why do you think that? Give examples. I find it so hypocritical and maddening that you go through the thread and spam it full of requests for more info from people when the info is already in thread, yet when you're giving your opinion you don't give YOUR reasons. SO GODDAMN ANNOYING.

[elvis_knits]

Twilight Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11722

[elvis_knits]

First of all... does that mean greendude is being replaced? I'm confused. Or is it a posting restriction?

Next, I want to talk about the end of day yesterday:

Vote Count
Shanba (4) – ChiboSempai, Kirbyoshi, Pomegranate, SocioPath
Yankee (2) – elvis_knits, Shanba
Nachomamma8 (1) – Yankee
ChiboSempai (1) – Nachomamma8
Pomegranate (1) - ZazieR

Not Voting (1): GreenDude

Why were we spread out like this? It was so stupid. Shanba was lynched with four votes, but there were six other people in the game! And the other "leading" wagon was only at 2 votes? That's ridiculous.

Yankee, and nacho - your votes were useless. Why were you holding onto votes that had no chance of lynching anyone? Who were your second choices for lynch after the vote you cast?

Today, and all future days, I really think we should try to hit the lynch number, not just let a lame low number take us to lynch. Because I think it deprives us of info. If we have more votes to analyze from a lynch, we have more info. The way the wagon went down yesterday, it could have been town driven and scum could sit back and be off the wagon.

---

Chibo did tunnel on shanba, and I said yesterday that I didn't like the fact that he tried to "trick" snowbunny into vote SoG. I am not convinced he's scum though. But I don't like his post 701.

I really don't think any of us saw that coming...

I tried to tell you Shanba was making town tells. Also, only four people voted Shanba in the end, so you really didn't have that many people agreeing with you.

And Nachomamma, you're quite quick to act with that vote tbh. How do you vote then demand an explaination... You act like I'm the only one to have voted Shanba. Sure I somewhat lead the case on him, but he was topping the scum list for multiple people. You saw the slip ups we all thought were scum tells. Almost everyone agreed that Shanba was the top play with the deadline closing in.

I don't like that you attack nacho for his vote. I think people should vote their suspicions, and be honest -- so do you! You're an aggressive player and I don't think his voting would bother you if it was against anyone else.

Also, I don't like you avoiding responsibility for the shanba lynch. Yes, others voted him, but so did you. And you more than somewhat led the case on him. You pushed repeatedly. I don't think you have to be scum to do that... but to deny that you did it -- that is scummy.

Also, I'm pretty sure your nacho suspicions here are OMGUS.

Chibo, I want a scum list from you ASAP with reasoning. I want to see how you see everyone in the game.

---

Kirby -- do you think my play this game is at all similar to my play in Second String Muppets Mafia?

Anyway, if you think I am scum, or you want to ask me anything about this game or muppets, I am happy to answer it.

[elvis_knits]

And before I go to bed, I'd just like to make two short observations about Chibo's behavior that are scummy to me.

1) He starts up a bit of an OMGUS case against me in post #701 by saying "It's simple scum logic." I don't like when people call the "scum logic" they're pointing out simple or obvious because it implies that whoever doesn't catch it is stupid if they miss it. So, it's a scum's way of preying on an overinflated ego or two who claim to understand the logic, but really just don't want to be stupid. It is also a way of giving his case more plausability by use of his confidence, which is the same thing he did with Shanba.

2) I don't like his attempt at deflecting it towards everyone else by saying "I'm not the only one who voted for Shanba... there were guaranteed townies that went for it." In other words, he's either misunderstanding exactly what I'm accusing him of, or he's trying to misrep me. I'm not voting him/suspicious of him because he voted Shanba, I'm voting him/suspicious of him because he tunneled Shanba.

jinx

(that's what I just said about chibo!)

[elvis_knits]

EK, regarding your 716 (the part that was addressed to me)...I've got no freakin' clue. The playstyles do strike me as similar, but it's so pro-town, I have a hard time voting you for it. I'm not placing a vote based wholly on meta. And to respond to the first line of 716: I think it means we have a town drunk.

I actually don't think I played that game very well. Charter called me scum and almost vigged me and I only got away because he shot the paranoid cop instead. I also lurked a lot early since I don't have confidence in myself as scum.

I also went along with things in that game that I think are anti-town and I would never go along with as town. Like no-lynching and ecto's plan to let me live even though there was a night result that pretty much said I was scum. My town philosophy is to rely on scum hunting more than strategy and to follow the things that have the greatest chance of being true (like a power role with a guilty means lynch the guilty result... if there is a special circumstance deal with it later).

I think my playstyle is different from town to scum, but maybe that's just my perception of it. People that have played with me as both seem to know pretty well what the difference is.

My advice is just to question anything about me you don't like. And hopefully you will be able to tell the difference.

[elvis_knits]

I don't know what a town drunk is either. I feel funny, because I'm not a noob. But I don't think I've seen it before. Atleast not that I can remember. Is this a trendy new role?

[elvis_knits]

So Town Drunk is a pro-town role blocker that makes the target be drunk the next day (and maybe unable to post?)?

I think nacho said GD was being replaced, but I didn't see that in Batt's posts. How did you know that, nacho?

[elvis_knits]

And this is no where in particular, but to answer your question, yeah. Greendude is getting replaced.

[elvis_knits]

Bah, founds it:

*GreenDude failed to pick up his prod, and is being replaced

So I guess he was hit with drunk, and is being replaced?

[elvis_knits]

I remember when I first joined MS that I was in a game where I was a mafia goon that could hit another player with a posting restriction that made them only be able to post in emoticons for the day. The town drunk thing reminds me of that a bit, but kirby says the role is mainly used as a pro-town role. I would say that the choice of GD probably hints that the role is pro-town too. GD was lurking. Scum has no reason to silence him, but town might do it because lurking is inherently scummy.

Anyway, we can deal with that later when it comes up. Maybe GD replacement can help a little, telling us what being drunk actually did to him. Might have to wait another day for that if he can't post today though? Nobody was drunk D2 though, right?

We probably have three scum, I think. That's normal in a mini game. I'm not sure the effect of a jester though, since that hurts the town, might mean less scum, or maybe just more town power. I'd say probably count on three scum. If it's less, that's a good thing. But we should plan for worst-case. And I don't think there's 4 scum. That's too much, especially with a jester.

So I have a strong town read on kirby and socio. That would mean that there are three scum in this group of five:

Yankee

Nacho

GD

Pome

Chibo

I am still probably most suspicious of

Yankee.

Budja went on all easy wagons D1. Yankee replaced in and voted shanba without really reading the thread. Rolefishing. Bad news.

Chibo

very agressive and tunnelled on Shanba. Those things are not bad in my book. However, I don't appreciate the effort to "trap" snowbunny. I also don't like his reaction to nacho's vote today. I am unsure here. Getting his read of all players may help me question him and decide, so Chibo, please do this.

Pom

-

laid back, sort of unhelpful in general, and similar to a game I saw her as town. However, for somebody so laid back, I think she's been on both lynches. Zazie thought she was scum. She started today trying to float the idea that maybe I would want to kill zazie. She had a bigger incentive, IMO. It's WIFOM, and I admit that zazie could have been killed simply for being so annoying. With Pom, I think it would help to "look to the wagons" as Shanba advised. Perhaps discussion with that will help.

GD

- lurker. I really don't know much about him. I want to iso him, see what I can find before he went AWOL.

nacho

-

has had some good points. I am somewhat conflicted on him because I am conflicted on Chibo. And I feel one of them is probably scum, but I am not sure which one. I don't want to set up a false dilemma, because

maybe neither is scum

. I just have a gut town read on chibo despite some really scummy actions. And I have sort of a gut suspicion on nacho despite some pretty town actions. The polar opposites I get on them make me think one is scum and one is town, but I could be wrong. Nacho was fairly lurky for a while and his vote was useless yesterday sitting on chibo when chibo didn't have a chance of being lynched (I think that is where my gut suspicions lie).

I guess I will

vote: Yankee

He's the only person I don't really have a conflict about.

[elvis_knits]

Or, it could have been a double target. Does anyone know if Yankee would retain his shot if he targeted the same person scum did?

I would say no. His shot went through. In the/invitational I'm playing, I think the mod even says if you're roleblocked you would not get your shot back. It would count as using your ability.

Hmmmm

It could make sense for zazie to be a vig kill. Since he was generally thought to be scummy.

Yankee might be telling the truth.

unvote

[elvis_knits]

Maybe GDude was the scum target, and was protected, and that's why he was passed out, not drunk, but injured? Or maybe an alcohol-related doctor variation? I'm kinda confused now, because there's so many possibilities...

Or GD was sent by the scumteam to perform the kill and was roleblocked by the TownDrunk (if I understand what the TownDrunk role is... like a roleblocker?)

Usually the way a scumteam works is that a GF will send in the kill, and he can send anyone. Or if there's no GF, I think anyone can send the kill.

We really need a GD replacement to sort this out.

[elvis_knits]

You know I was wondering if it was just mod flavor too, based on GD needing replacement.

Although if this is the case, mod was very misleading.

I think we just need to talk to GD replacement.

I wouldn't blame kirby for speculating on TownDrunk role if it's something he's seen often.

[elvis_knits]

I don't find kirby's drunktalk that odd. Part of the reason he had to keep talking about it is nobody knew what he meant. It is believable to me that he would jump to that conclusion if it's a role he sees alot on another site.

I am worried that Chibo comes back from being VLA and isn't contributing much except to extend the dead-end talk of kirby and towndrunk.

vote Chibo

[elvis_knits]

I do not like Pome. She is saying kirby is neutral, while sort of attacking him/agreeing with attacks on him. Seems very slimy. Like she is encouraging kirbyhate without actually agreeing with it. Like she's staying off the wagon for now but she might join later. It seems contradictory and manipulative.

It's scummy, but I can see town doing it. I think he thought the role was common enough (@Kirby- did you think it was common enough on the site?), and was trying to get opinions. I don't like the role-fishing, but I don't see anything wrong with asking for a concise case. Atm my read on him is neutral.

Does that mean you are purposely ignoring Kirby's paranoia of things not directly related to a town RBer?

No, it's duly noted, yet I played with Kirby once before. It

was

a newbie game, but he acted similar in many ways. I wouldn't be willing to lynch him today. But I do find his "Do you think I'll be lynched today?" post kinda weird.

I was just wondering because his vote was still on me, and I think it could best be used elsewhere.

I actually don't like how this sounds. "I'm not the scummiest, so you should probably go vote for someone else."

Atm my read on him (Kirby) is neutral.

[elvis_knits]

I never did like the whole do you think I'll be lynched today post by him. Tbh I had no idea what he meant by it since it was so early on in the day and he didn't even have the most votes, so I didn't know what to think of it and sort of ignored it, but these new reasons presented about it do make sense. Saying that the vote could potentially be used elsewhere better makes the whole situation that much worse.

What is strange about a player asking others if he is their number one suspect? And saying they should be voting their number one suspect?

Obviously, any players doesn't want votes on them. And obviously it is unfair to vote kirby if he's not your number one suspect.

The entire case on him seems to be that he mentioned a role we never heard of and then we kept discussing it. I don't think it's rolefishing considering the role might not even be in the game, and he never said someone should claim to be the towndrunk.

Kirbywagon is fail.

Chibo is scum. He's trying to subtly push the kirby wagon while not voting kirby. That is scummy. Especially coming from Chibo, who seemed like a very aggressive player yesterday. This does not fit with his playstyle. He's just trying not to draw too much attention to himself again, while hoping the kirby wagon gets going and hoping that makes the wagon on him loses steam.

Chibo = scum.

[elvis_knits]

I don't really care if you think I'm his buddy. I think the case on him sucks so I'm not going to say otherwise. Defend why YOU think kirby is scum, don't go accusing me of being his buddy. That is a deflection. We are arguing over the validity of the case. Instead of responding to that you accuse me of being scum? That is scummy.

I'm telling you I think the case on him sucks. And the people who are shifting over to his wagon in a scummy way are likely scum.

As to why I think Chibo is scum, you would know if you read my posts. You make it seem like I haven't said why I think he's scum, when I definitely have.

You, on the other hand, have hardly made a case on kirby. I don't even understand what you said about him.

Why are you trying to get others to sympathize with you and trying to coerce them to your side..... Why cant you just defend yourself without trying to get others to help you out. The way you are trying to defend yourself seems very suspicious to me.

First of all, I don't see how he tried to get people to sympathize with him or COERCE them. You make it sound like he is waterboarding people. And you're asking him to defend himself in a different way when there's literally nothing to defend against. He asks you to make a case so he can respond to it and you say:

its not THAT you are convincing people of your case, its the way you are going about it....

Instead of making a case, you tell him he's responding badly. Make a case or go home!

[elvis_knits]

A catalogue of Yankee's rolefishing sins:

how can you be so sure that shanba is scum

.

The only way you can be so sure is if either you are his scum partner or you are a cop and investigated him. otherwise there is no way to be so sure...

i was attacking Chibo because he was saying Shanba IS scum, almost as if he knew without a shadow of a doubt. This seems strange to me, and i didnt mean to role fish, i was just pointing out that only the Mafia and the cop would be so certain of a person's scumminess.

But this post is mainly to the roleblocker (if we have one) or any other role that could stop the mafia from killing in the night, to vote for that person. I am not sure if you should claim or not, but maybe you can convince the town without claiming.

What makes you so sure Chibo is scum anyways

?

[elvis_knits]

I'm not gonna lie, EK's points do seem valid from his viewpoint. My play style is drastically different from yesterday to today but there is a legitimate reason for it which I can't really go into at the moment. A change in gameplay like this is to be noted and thought about, but not a scumtell imo.

No, you have to tell me the legitimate reason. Considering you already claimed vanilla, it cannot be role related. I see no reason why you want to keep your reasons to yourself.

[elvis_knits]

What I have to say would potentially hurt town if told now.

Lynch please.

(and yes, I am voting you).

[elvis_knits]

So does anyone think it's weird the way Chibo reacted to Yankee's claim, saying it was unnecessary and he didn't understand it and everything, given that Chibo roleclaimed yesterday for absolutely no reason???

Check it out:

I honestly don't understand Yankees claim. I don't suppose it really hurts us per se, but confirms a townie for us if we believe him. To the mafia they already knew he wasn't with them (if he's not mafia) so it's really no different to them. Also he's practically not a power role anymore. There's no way he has his shot still because if he did he wouldn't be posting this.

But like, why exactly did you role claim?

I'm just a vanilla townie but I'm confident that I've nailed a scum player here.

[elvis_knits]

I do not believe you Chibo.

We already had a Jester in the setup, which hurts the town. Having a paranoid or insane cop further hurts the town. It is possible for that to be balanced, but it would mean that the rest of the town would have to be a lot of useful power roles to balance that out, or a lower number of scum than usual. Yankeee claimed a one-shot vig, but a vig is a swingy role and can hurt or help town, it can't necessarily be counted in town's favor. I mean, if Yankee is telling the truth, look what happened, the vig killed town. That's not unusual. It's not always so helpful to town. I severely doubt that there is a paranoid or insane cop in this setup, it just puts the town at too much of a disadvantage, given what else we know about the roles we have.

Also, Chibo, if you're a cop, you didn't have to claim vanilla. You could have just said your suspicions have nothing to do with your role, or ignored the fishing. Or you could have claimed for real and hoped there is a doc in the setup to protect you. If you are a cop, lying was the absolute worst thing you could have done, because it has destroyed your credibility, and I have trouble believing you thought it was necessary or a good idea.

Also, hiding your result is not a good idea either. It only helps scum. We are obviously not going to lynch your result, since a guilty from you either means the person is really innocent (if you're insane) or the person is either (if you're paranoid). But, if you get lynched/NKed and flip "insane cop," then we REALLY need to know your result, and if you hide it from us, we lose a potential confirmed innocent. There really is no pro-town reason for hiding it from us. Hiding only helps the scum. Yet another reason I think you are making all this up.

[elvis_knits]

Also, i read somewhere that Cop roles that are insane or w/e are normally only paired with a normal cop. I am wondering if this is actually true....

In a mini, there's usually only one cop. Sometimes none. Usually the cop is sane in a mini, but other sanities are absolutely possible. The last mini I played, we had a paranoid cop.

But, again, Yankee, this sounds like you are fishing for a second cop! WILL YOU STOP ROLE FISHING??? OMG. Are you asking about a second cop because chibo is your buddy and you are worried the real cop will counterclaim him? Are you setting up the idea that we might have two cops? There is almost no chance of that.

[elvis_knits]

Chibo, all you did was give your result, you didn't respond to the rest of my arguments:

I do not believe you Chibo.

We already had a Jester in the setup, which hurts the town. Having a paranoid or insane cop further hurts the town. It is possible for that to be balanced, but it would mean that the rest of the town would have to be a lot of useful power roles to balance that out, or a lower number of scum than usual. Yankeee claimed a one-shot vig, but a vig is a swingy role and can hurt or help town, it can't necessarily be counted in town's favor. I mean, if Yankee is telling the truth, look what happened, the vig killed town. That's not unusual. It's not always so helpful to town. I severely doubt that there is a paranoid or insane cop in this setup, it just puts the town at too much of a disadvantage, given what else we know about the roles we have.

Also, Chibo, if you're a cop, you didn't have to claim vanilla. You could have just said your suspicions have nothing to do with your role, or ignored the fishing. Or you could have claimed for real and hoped there is a doc in the setup to protect you. If you are a cop, lying was the absolute worst thing you could have done, because it has destroyed your credibility, and I have trouble believing you thought it was necessary or a good idea.

Also, hiding your result is not a good idea either. It only helps scum. We are obviously not going to lynch your result, since a guilty from you either means the person is really innocent (if you're insane) or the person is either (if you're paranoid). But, if you get lynched/NKed and flip "insane cop," then we REALLY need to know your result, and if you hide it from us, we lose a potential confirmed innocent. There really is no pro-town reason for hiding it from us. Hiding only helps the scum. Yet another reason I think you are making all this up.

TL;DR:

1)Insane or paranoid cop doesn't make sense in this setup given that we already had a jester which hurts the town.

2)Why did you claim vanilla yesterday? You did not have to claim vanilla. IF you claimed anything, you should have claimed your real role.

3)What was your reasoning for wanting to keep your result a secret? How did you think it would help the town?

Basically, I still don't believe chibo, and he needs to atleast answer my concerns before I will think about unvoting him. For the people that believe him... WHY do you believe him?

I am really uncomfortable leaving chibo alive at this point because he'll probably draw the doc protect if we have one. And since I don't believe he really is a cop, that totally sucks for us. The doc, if we have one, will be protecting a scum. That makes me

[elvis_knits]

I dont support lynching the cop either. I am really starting to get more Suspicious of EK. He seems to be changing playstyles and getting more aggitated, as well as posting more then he has any previously. For now he is my top suspect...

Unvote, Vote: elvis_knits

I'm getting more aggitated because people are not using their brains. I am normally an aggressive player when I believe something strongly. Your argument is stupid. You should argue with my reasoning, not just that I am "aggitated." You continually rolefish and resort to adhom attacks instead of arguing your point. Which makes me think you can't argue your point. Because you don't have one. Did you ever make your case on kirby? I don't think so! You attack me for asking you to make one, then move on to something else. What is your case on me? I'm posting more and seem aggitated? You're right, I am aggitated and posting more -- BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE WHAT IS HAPPENING.

Also, my other games ended, and this is my only game at the moment. Muppets ended, /invitational4 ended.

[elvis_knits]

Yankee and Socio could very well be scumbuddies.

Why do you think that?

[elvis_knits]

Ok, seriously EK? I dont post a case on Kirby and you freak out on me like you are yelling at me for not posting a case, then Kirby accuses me with no case whatsoever (i at least had explained why i was suspicious of him) and you simply ask "Why do you think that?". You have been Kirby's buddy all game. If Kirby or Elvis flips scum then i strongly believe the other is another scum, just look at how they interact with each other thru the game

.

SRSLY.

I didn't freak out on kirby because he only expressed mild suspicion and isn't voting either of you. So, yes, I want to know why he thinks that but it's not worthy of a freak out yet. If I don't like his reasoning, I will tell him so. If it's scummy, I will tell him so.

You on the other hand, vote without having a case. Routinely. And you rolefish the hell out of everyone. And you come back at me with posts like the above... that are not a response to my last attack on you, but a completely different misdirection.

Respond to points against you and start making cases. You cannot just keep changing the subject. I asked you for a case on kirby and you didn't give it. You talked about how you think chibo is the cop and then you voted me for posting too much and being "aggitated."

So yeah, I'm going to keep coming at you when you provide no reasoning, or reasoning that I don't agree with and think is really scummy.

[elvis_knits]

Sorry... that was me on alt.

I'm reposting so that it's easier to find, also so

MOD

can delete if he wants.

I liked Jahudo's Day 2 comments much more than the day 1 comments. But maybe I didn't like the Day 1 comments because we've learned so much more since then that the reads seemed sort of "off."

I am inclined to agree with him that Pome is scummy. That was my original take on Pome but I backed off when she gave me the scumlist that I liked. Of course it's possible she gave me a scumlist that she knew I would like... I knew that at the time. I think I was just ready to pressure someone else, and didn't feel enough support to get anything more out of Pome. Nobody really seemed to agree with me about her (except zazie later), and I figured I could be wrong on her.

Another thing that had me conflicted about Pome was that zazie brought up twilight mafia, jogging my memory because I played that game with her (and she was town). The playstyle was actually similar, which made me think Pome is town here too. Zazie disagreed though, I think. Basically, I'm not sure how much weight I want to put on this meta read of her since I believe the playstyle (unhelpful, laid-back) is anti-town.

What I have the most problem with about Pome is that she gets on EVERY wagon. I mean, I didn't double-check this, but I noticed how she put the L-1 on Chibo, with no other reasoning than "I agree." WTF is that? I get the feeling she is not thinking for herself there. She's just voting anywhere that will get us closer to a lynch. Which is what scum want to do.

Also, first thing today she mentioned me as having the biggest reason to kill zazie, implying that I am scum. Zazie was attacking me at the end of the day, but zazie was VOTING Pome for a loooooong time and attacking Pome much more. She had to know that. So bringing my name up instead was just... fishy to me. It's WIFOM anyway, so it just seemed to me like maybe she wanted to get out in front of anyone accusing HER of NKing zazie. Otherwise, I just don't even know why she would bring it up. I mean, I didn't even remember that zazie called me scum end of yesterday until she said that. So it surprises me that she would remember, when the most memorable thing is how hard he attacked Pome.

I guess the problem with that theory is that yankee says he's the vig and that he killed zazie.

It's possible that scum also NKed zazie, or that yankee is scum. Which is not that hard for me to believe...

Anyway, I still want more explanation and participation from Chibo. He was supposedly laying low today since he was unsure of his sanity and didn't want to claim, etc. Well, now the cat is out of the bag, so I'd like to see him participating and maybe even *gasp* scumhunting.

I also have a problem with Yankee. He doesn't make cases, and his "reasons" are scummy reasons. Like "you're agitated!" Being upset, aggitated, defensive, is not a scum tell! He's never really responded to any of my points against him. He just says "oh look how much you're posting!" which is irrelevant and not an answer to any argument. I also think he's a rolefisher even though nobody seems to agree.

Oh, also I just thought of something tech. Yankee's role is totally unprovable! Usually having a second kill at night would prove the existence of a vig/sk/second killing role. But we only had one last night, and now he's out of bullets. So basically, we'll never know! How convenient!

Anyway, those are my top three scum pics.

Chibo
Pome
Yankee

[elvis_knits]

Jahudo's 933...

I have noticed this about Pome. She has echoed a lot of my points. Like especially the trap thing I noticed because nobody else called Chibo's play a trap except me. So for her to use the same term and agree with me definitely struck me as copycat.

My reservations about this have been 1)I don't mind people agreeing with me, if I'm right it only helps me get it done; and 2)Twilight mafia she did lots of QFT's and agreement behavior and she was town there.

I think that her behavior is somewhat different this game (from twilight) because she mostly seems to be agreeing with me. Not everyone. Also, it just seems like she's doing it more, and she's not doing a whole lot of scumhunting. Even now when people are attacking her, she's not really addressing the points. Which I find scummy. She doesn't seem like she's trying to explain her behavior. Maybe she doesn't know how to? Or hoping that ignoring it will blow over?

Anyway, it is mostly meta considerations that have given me pause about Pome, but I think that overall she really is scummy. That the meta arguments are not enough to excuse the degree to which she is copying/buddying me, her lack of scum hunting, and her failure to address points on her.

I would vote her today.

I still want to hear from Chibo though... where is he??

[elvis_knits]

Deadline is tomorrow?? OMG.


I guess my top two are Chibo, Pom. Yankee and nacho after that. I'm pretty happy with Jahudo.

[elvis_knits]

Do you all realize Chibo has done diddly squat today?

Same pretty much applies to Pome, I guess. I just really think Chibo is fake claiming since I don't think he needed to claim vanilla yesterday.

If Pome is still highest vote-getter when she checks the thread, she needs to claim.

I want to vote Pome because I think she's scum too, but I really dislike the idea of unvote Chibo when he hasn't answered my questions or scum-hunted at all today. I'm going to wait a bit and see who posts.

[elvis_knits]

The fact that you're "observing the discussion" but not really participating, makes me very wary!

Chibo, I want a scumlist from you with comments on every player.

[elvis_knits]

Do you really think so? What are the other newbie tells that you've seen?

Maybe you're right. I was thinking that he overplayed aggressive scum yesterday and maybe his buddies recommended he claim cop today to try to save himself.

But I guess it could fit with newb cop. Although, he says he's played a lot of mafia other places, so he isn't sooooo newb.

unvote, vote Pome

[elvis_knits]

I'm just having a problem finding enough scum if I believe Chibo is cop and yankee is vig.

If chibo is town, he's almost certainly insane. Paranoid cop hurts the game too much. and if he's insane, that means nacho is town too.

And I think socio and kirby and jahudo are town.

Which leaves me with Pome. And no buddies. Unless I am wrong about my town reads. Always possible, but it's not what my gut says.

I still don't like Chibo or Yankee.

[elvis_knits]

It would totally make sense for you to lie about that, or to actually have done it.

:/

unvote

I have to think about this.

[elvis_knits]

That's so true. Pome who did you target N1?

Vote: deadline extension!

[elvis_knits]

they tried to kill her twice (N1 she replaced in for Josh Lyman).

I don't understand this part.

I originally replaced Manzcar (who was dark blue I think) at the end of Day1. I posted like one time before snowbunny hammered. Before Day 2 started, Mod asked me to replace Josh Lyman since Manzcar was being killed that night.

I just remembered something else. If yankee is a 1-shot vig, that means budja decided not to use his shot N1, leaving it for his replacement, yankee N2. (Do people actually ever wait to use a 1-shot ability? I dunno, but I would be using it N1). And if yankee is the vig, it means zazie was double targetted or I was the NK, protected by Pome. This is getting complicated.

[elvis_knits]

I made up this little cheat sheet because I realized I was forgetting stuff, like forgetting to ask what Pome's N1 choice was, and forgetting that Yankee/budja didn't use his 1-shot on N1.

I hope it helps us think through everything. I'm going to look at it and think myself.

1) Shanba _{Snow_Bunny}lynched D2 - vanilla

2) SocioPath

3) Pomegranate- claimed doc

4) Kirbyoshi

5) Yankee _Budja- claimed 1-shot vig

6) ChiboSempai- claimed paranoid or insane cop

7) semioldguy - lynched D1 - jester

8) Jahudo_GreenDude

9) Manzcar (fleetingly replaced by elvis)killed N1 - vanilla

10) Nachomamma8

11) ZazieR _chamberkilled N2 - vanilla

12) elvis_knits _{Josh Lyman}

So far, I'm wondering what everyone thinks of Jahudo. He seems town. Anyone feel differently?

I'm really feeling sketchy about yankee because I don't understand waiting on the 1-shot, plus I just generally haven't liked him.

I'm also still feeling sketchy about chibo. His latest post, he didn't vote: deadline extension, and said how 3 days is too much?? If it's too much we don't need to use it. wtf...

[elvis_knits]

Vote Chibo

ATLEAST until he actually votes for the extension, not just says he's in favor while not voting for it and saying 3-day extensions is too much (!).

Also, Yankee, you didn't bold your unvote or vote, so your vote is probably still on Pome.

[elvis_knits]

How does Pome's claim make Chibo's more reasonable?

Is it just that she's claiming a power role that's actually helpful to town, starting to balance out all the many

unhelpful

power roles we seem to have?

[elvis_knits]

I made some corrections and additions to Yankee's list:

Sociopath - unknown
Pomegranate - doctor, protected kirby n1, e_k n2
Kirby - unknown
Yankee - 1 shot vig, used shot n2 on zazie
Chibo - cop, paranoid or insane
Jahudo - unknown
Nachomamma - unknown, investigated "guilty"
elvis - unknown, protected n2, possibly (but not definitely) was a blocked NK N2

I still really want Chibo dead. Is that crazy?

If kirby doesn't come in and vote deadline extension, maybe we should thikn about lynching him? I'm not sure I really like that though. He is an unknown, even though I have had a town read on him. I will explain one of the towntells I have seen. I was playing another game with him, muppets mafia, where I was scum and he was town. After the game ended, and I won as scum, he became much more suspicious of me in this game. That seemed like a very natural reaction for a townie to have, and not something I would expect scum to fake.

I don't think we should do a massclaim until we know if we're getting the extension or not. I don't want half the people claiming and sending us into hysteria when we have less than 12 hours before deadline.

[elvis_knits]

Despite his resistance to the deadline extension, and saying we don't need 3 extra days, Chibo is still not voting anyone. How are we going to lynch someone without voting??

I do not like.

[elvis_knits]

I see kirby posting elsewhere on the site. If he doesn't post here soon and vote deadline extensions, woe and wrath will rain on him.

[elvis_knits]

I'm fine with nacho going first.

[elvis_knits]

When would you claim in the list? Last?

A popcorn claim is that everyone decides who they want to claim first (who they think is scummiest usually) and then that person claims. The person who claimed chooses the next to claim, and so on until everyone has claimed.

Just so everyone knows what we're talking about.

So if nacho claims first he gets to choose the next person to claim. We would not keep going from Jahudo's list or anyone else's.

[elvis_knits]

If you want it to be someone else, you should say so. I just don't care that much.

[elvis_knits]

I'll go first, but I'd like to hear Nacho's input first on the subject.

That is fine with me also.

[elvis_knits]

Well, you guys sorta screwed that up since socio said he wanted to go first.

I am a neighbor.

I can communicate at night with someone, but I am not assured their allignment. But, for a number of reasons, which I will explain below, I *think* my neighbor is town.

My neighbor is socio.

I think the reason he wanted to go first in this popcorn claim was because he would claim but make you all guess who his neighbor was. He thought this could help him guage reactions and scum hunt. (we discussed this as a possibility last night). Since me, socio, and jahudo are the only ones left to claim, I figured there was not much point in doing that now. If I claim and ask you guys to guess my neighbor, you only have two choices. And in my mind, the choice is obvious.

Reasons I think socio is town:
1)In our PM's he has shown a sincere effort to scum hunt. Not just among the rest of you, but he has shown a sincere effort to guess my allignment, something I don't think scum would really want/need to do. You might remember early yesterday he was paranoid about me buddying to him, since he was unsure of my allignment. He has seemed genuinely concerned about me, which is a town-tell in my book.
2)Last night we agreed zazie was the person we most wanted to lynch today. Then zazie got the NK. If socio was scum, I doubt he would spend the time discussing zazie as a potential lynch if he was getting NKed. (I know yankee is saying he vigged zazie, but it's possible zazie was double killed or yankee is lying. In the event that Pome is doc and stopped a nk on me, I don't think socio would try to NK me if he was scum since we have agreed for much of the game). So the NK does not make sense as having come from socio -- whether the scumkill was on zazie or if it was on me.
3)Ibelieve he wanted to claim first to guage reactions, which I believe is pro-town. nacho and kirby seem to not have seen his offer to go first, or ignored it. It's possible they didn't see it because orange can be hard to read. That's why I quoted it above and said "I don't have a problem with that." I was hoping that bumping it out of his longer post would let people see it better. I guess it did not.

ALSO...

This is one of the reasons that I was/am suspicious of the "paranoid or insane cop" claim because I knew me and socio have power roles that aren't really very powerful. We cannot actually confirm each other for sure. Of all the roles to claim so far, the town doesn't really have much power except the doc. So this is a further reason why I kept saying I didn't think a paranoid or insane cop made much sense in this setup, although I didn't want to claim at the time.

I've been trying to think if there is a cop, I think he must be insane, because then he is atleast somewhat useful. And if there really is a cop, that might make me wonder about socio a little bit more. But for the reasons I explained above, I think he's town.

[elvis_knits]

I am a vanilla town.

Is neighbor the same as mason in this case?

It's like a mason in that we can talk at night, but usually masons know each other's allignment. We are not assured each other's allignment.

[elvis_knits]

So, let me get this straight: there COULD be a scum in the neighbor pair, but there doesn't HAVE to be, correct?

Jahudo is the last one to claim.

If Socio has been as townie as EK has said he is in the neighbor chat, I'm thinking a Pom/Yankee scumteam. Thoughts?

Why have you decided to accept Chibo's claim (and assume nacho is innocent)? And decided Pome and yankee are lying?

I'm not so sure Pome is scum. She has claimed basically the only actually useful power role so far. I'm pretty sure I don't want to lynch her today.

Chibo could still be lying.

Does my claim change anyone's thoughts on Chibo? Because part of the reason I never liked his claim is because I always knew my role was not powerful. And for him to be paranoid and therefore hurtful/useless to town, or insane which usually results in a mislynch before being helpful... kinda made doubt his role.

As always, I'm not infallible, so I would really appreciate everyone's thoughts on this.

[elvis_knits]

But if Pome is lying then we have NO protection role in the game. I mean, weird shit can and does happen, but most games have a protection role of some kind.

[elvis_knits]

No lynch is against my religion, and especially since nacho suggested it as a means to protect chibo...

unvote; vote nachomamma

Not only do I really think chibo is scum, but nacho attacked chibo for most of the day, so protecting chibo now with a nolynch is very odd to me.

[elvis_knits]

You're missing my point. If there's three scum, and if we lynch wrong, we lose. Do you have ANY reason whatsoever to KNOW that there's two scum instead of three, or if you are pretty damn sure that someone is scum, then enlighten me. But right now, I'd rather improve my chances than lose.

I am not sure of anything, just like I don't think I will be sure of anything tomorrow. The only thing we will accomplish is have another dead townie from a nightkill (which will probably be successful whether we have a doc or not).

So, yes we will have better odds of hitting scum because the lynch pool is lower, but we will also have one less townie. And if you think questionable-sanity-chibo is going to help a lot tomorrow, think again. He might not be able to help at all, and then where will we be? Generally, in mafia I don't like no-lynch. I don't do it except in rare circumstances, or when I'm scum.

[elvis_knits]

Why are you now thinking nacho is town? Your last post said this:

agreed with E_K, i have never seen a game with no protection role of some sort. Still suspicious of Kirby and Nacho..

..

Now he suggests no-lynch and that reverses your read of him??

[elvis_knits]

Kirby... pay special attention to the end in bold.

I dont like the No Lynch either, i guess because i lost a game before because of it when i was a town, but it doesnt mean that i think Nacho is scum because of it. Sometimes it seems like you have a good idea as a townie and then when you go to tell people about it, it comes out wrong or others think it is a bad idea and start a bandwagon on you for your idea. I wont do that because

frankly i just dont see Nacho being mafia

[elvis_knits]

You're not being very clear. I can't tell what you think of nacho.

Still suspicious of Kirby and Nacho...

.

frankly i just dont see Nacho being mafia

And i am still suspicious of Nacho as well as everyone else, but i am losing suspicion of Kirby and Nacho at the time being.

I think the entire premise of assuming nacho is town because he wants to no-lynch is a bad one. The example you cited led to town losing despite the fact that it was a townie who suggested nolynch. That should tell you how much no-lynch can hurt a town.

But even if you think that (that suggesting nolynch is protown), you're still being unclear and going back and forth a lot on nacho. You're really flip-floppy.

I don't like it because it is a common scum tactic to say you are suspicious of your buddy, for sake of distancing, while voting someone else. So in this situation you're saying you're suspicious of nacho and kirby, while voting kirby and defending nacho. It's very odd to me for you to defend nacho if you're suspicious of him. IF his nolynch idea changed your read, that is one thing (I disagree but I could see how personal experience might lead you to that conclusion). But for you to keep going back and forth from suspicion to "i don't think he's mafia" is very odd.

[elvis_knits]

I do not want to play "follow the cop" with someone who I think is scum, and who is begging for doc protect, and plans to lead us around for days with this godawful plan that may end with him goin "oh, hey sorry I guess I'm paranoid, teehee!"

[elvis_knits]

I see where both of you are coming from, E_K and Chibo, but i tend to want to go with Chibo's plan, because what other option do we have. And no, i dont consider a no lynch a valid option. As for my opinion on Nacho, it keeps changing, i guess i cant read him very well. I was suspicious of him for a while, but then i started to think of him as a townie after Chibo claimed because i personally believe that Chibo is insane instead of paranoid. But that doesnt rule out the possibility of him being paranoid and with all the suspicious activity i have noted in Nacho, if Chibo does flip paranoid then i would want to lynch Nacho. Hope that helps to sum up my feeling on Nacho clearly and concisely as possible.

I understand the effort to put together a plan and to guess at setup -- I think I've done a fair amount of that this game.

But I don't think we should lose sight of good old-fashioned scum hunting. If there is no clear plan that will guarantee us an advantage, I will fall back on scumhunting and not be backed into this stupid corner where I have to lynch kirby or jahudo just because chibo (questionable sanity cop at best, fake claiming scum at worst) thinks it MIGHT help. I am not going against my reads and chasing this plan that might end in Chibo going "oh hai guys i guez i'm paranoid!"

I think everyone should comment on this though. Specifically, jahudo and socio seem like they're not making much of a decision. socio voting pom, she's not getting lynched today. And jahudo voting nobody. Are you guys changing your vote before deadline? Where do you think you might put it? I think we should all be discussing as much as possible.

[elvis_knits]

nacho doesn't really seem to be fighting this.

[elvis_knits]

I don't see how it's that horrible considering nacho was going to be the lynch anyway with the most votes and deadline is in a few hours. It does remind me of snowbunny though.

I wish people like socio and nacho himself had been active these last few days though.

*crosses fingers*

[elvis_knits]

Uh... now I am so conflicted.

The nightscene and the subsequent posts are not what I expected.

I have to tell the town something very important.

Me and Socio are not neighbors. We are

LOVERS

. (allignment not guaranteed). Yesterday I said we were neighbors because I really thought he was town and I figured that as long as I thought he was town that I should protect the town from taking a 2for1 NK. But now I am less sure of his allignment and I think that since it's lylo that the town should have all the information they can get. I do not want to make a crucial decision on my own that might screw up the game for the rest of you.

So, last night socio and I PMed a bit. I told him I thought we should lynch pome today if she's still alive, because scum usually kill the doc. I mean, I think it's more of a sure thing for them, like 9/10 times they're going to just kill the doc rather than risk a NK not going through.

He answered me with saying he thinks I'm scum and he's going to claim our real roles today and try to get himself/me lynched.

So I wake up and Pome is not dead, but yankee is dead, and socio has not claimed our real roles and says he's pretty sure that since yankee is dead that Pome really did stop a NK on me N2 and that means Pome and me are town.

And I just don't know what to think. I'm paranoid that Socio and Pome are scum together, and that socio is playing me. Or that Socio is scum with someone else (we can only have 2 scum at this point, right?), and he's still playing me. For one thing, I asked him why he thinks I'm scum last night and he never answered me. So I guess I'm wondering if he really thought that or was trying to manipulate me by pretending to be suspicious of me. I said yesterday how I thought him being suspicious of me meant he was town, so maybe he thought he should up the ante on me and call me scum.

I decided to claim because I am just not sure about socio now, and because if we lynch wrong today, we lose anyway, but if we lynch right, then scum are down to 1 member, so even if me and socio are town and get Nked tonight, there are 3 members left and 1 scum, so town gets one more shot to win the game. Essentially, it will not ruin the game even if me and socio are both town and die from NK.

Also, lynching one of us is an option, although if we're both town it's game over. But then again, whoever we lynch if we lynch wrong will be game over, so that's pretty much the same.

I just think we all have to discuss this now and think through the situation. Because I need help, and I don't want to make a mistake that will cause the rest of the town to lose.

[elvis_knits]

Also, and maybe this setup speculation has been bad for me all along, but part of the reason I was so suspicious of a paranoid or insane cop is that I think town lovers is pretty bad for the town. Town lovers, plus jester, plus paranoid or insane cop just REALLY sucks for the town. I mean, essentially every power role hurts rather than helps the town.

So, think of that what you will. Maybe chibo is insane, which is sort of helpful to town. But maybe having one of the lover be scum is the only way to balance this?

Do you see why I need help??

[elvis_knits]

Ok, so, EK, would you happen to know, if, say, you and Socio are a scum/town pair, whether the game would end if we lynch the town half of the pair? Or did that make sense?

I'm not sure I understand, but you mean, like if one of us is scum and we lynch the town one, does scum win before the other lover suicides?

I assumed the other lover dies instantly but I checked my role pm and it says the other lover will die the next night or day phase. So I guess technically, scum could win before the other lover dies if we choose the wrong lover.

Interesting you asked that since I didn't remember that bit of info from my PM.

But also, maybe if we're both town and one of us gets a NK, the other will live thorugh the next day, but die with the lynch scene? I think?

@Jahudo, as far as protection, I would assume it would not extend to the other lover. But I don't know. My role doesn't say.

(Also, I am a cougar in real life... so casting was good by batt )

[elvis_knits]

I agree with pretty much everything kirby just said.

I also find the idea of their being only one killer pretty interesting. I think it is possible. I have seen some very interesting setups in my time, they can be like a puzzle. One notable game I remember was Oman's Omod (from like over a year ago, I was playing as an alt, PinkPuppy) http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 59&start=0

Setup was:
Mafia GF
Mafia RB
Retired Cop (takes over cop's job if cop dies, but there's no cop)
Miller
Psychiatrist
7 Townies

This setup was very interesting because it was basically 2 scum and 10 townies, since none of the town power roles or scum power roles actually did anything.

Another cool one was Mafia ViPod
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... c&&start=0

Setup was:
2 seperate cult recruiters, limited to one other member each, become culted lovers with recruit, can kill at night when not recruiting.
Jailer
Tracker
Miller
7 Townies


So I think those two games show that a lot of crazy stuff can happen, but it usually has a sort of logic to it. Especially with Oman's game it was like a puzzle... we figured out that none of the power roles did anything. Like a psychiatrist without an SK, and a retired cop without a cop, and a miller without a cop.

So with our game, having all power roles that hurt the town would potentially balance a setup with only an SK.

Or maybe we have two mafia, and one good power role (doc or insane cop, or doc with paranoid cop). Although I am liking the idea that all the power roles hurt the town, making chibo paranoid and Pome a lone scum SK. It would be a cool setup.

[elvis_knits]

I pretty much agree that Pome is the play today too. The other roles suggest that a lone scum is possible, given that they provide every advantage to the scum, rather than help town.

But wait I just thought of something. The N2 kill with only one death, and yankee said he killed zazie.

Either Pome would have had to kill zazie too or Pome decided to no-kill to help her fake a doc claim.

If Pome decided to no-kill and woke up to find someone dead, she must have been seriously like WTF!!!!!

[elvis_knits]

lol ya she would have, but as stated, it certainly could have been a double target, or she just decided to not kill anyone. Also, looking back, how sure did she seem that she successfully protected you? Too sure would be +scum points, wouldn't it?

I think she suspected that I killed zazie...



Which would mean she didn't think she stopped the kill. Which means if she is scum she also targetted zazie.

Which is believable considerign zazie was voting Pome before death.

[elvis_knits]

Ack. Prodded.

I think I have to go with Pome. She seems to have the only power role that "works." It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the roles, and she should have died last night if she were really a doc. (Although, WIFOM, etc).

I want to take one more look at Jahudo though since he hasn't been here as long. I don't remember seeing anything in his posts I disliked, but I just want to read him over again to be sure.

I was hoping for some clarity when I confessed about the lovers thing, but I still am not really sure. Nobody suspects socio? Because I certainly don't mind dying with him if he's scum.

[elvis_knits]

I'd say if the game isn't over after lynching Pome (hopefully the one-man scum theory), and if me and socio don't die overnight, we should be lynched tomorrow.

[elvis_knits]

I'm pretty much ready to lynch Pome, especially since deadline is tomorrow, I think.

But I was waiting for socio to answer that.

[elvis_knits]

I guess I'm worried about socio hammering without answering.

Also I never looked at you like I promised, so I was holding out.

I'm not sure why pome isn't voting anyone or trying to get anyone else lynched. Makes me wonder if she's the lone scum like we think and has sort of given up or if her buddy is bussing her and she's taking one for the team.

[elvis_knits]

He did say 60%, that is true. I didn't remember he said it depended on the NK's, but I looked back and he did say that. However, he didn't tell me what NKs meant what to him, so I really didn't pay much attention to that part of it.

I PMed him after that asking him why he thought I was scum and never heard back from him. I took that as a sign that either he reallyreally thought I was scum and didn't even want to talk to me, or that he was scum that couldn't come up with good reasons. Either one was bad... seeing as he's wrong if he thinks I'm scum, and I was in trouble if he's scum (since I had been thinking he was town all game and didn't tell the town the truth).

Whole game I was trying to figure out if I thought he was town or not. Thinking that if I thought he was town it was better for the town to lie to you all, preventing a 2for1 nightkill. But I always felt the burden of deciding on my own and potentially protecting a scum if I say he's town and he's not.

[elvis_knits]

So basically, Jahudo, what he says is true, but when he stopped PMing me I just assumed that the probability had risen. I thought he would probably do it. Then when he didn't, I was very mindfucked.

[elvis_knits]

But pome, even if you're town, couldn't it have been a doublekill on zazie though?

[elvis_knits]

Pome, you know if we lynch you today and you're town we might lose.

Why aren't you trying to lynch anyone?

[elvis_knits]

So you think socio is scum.

Do you think he has any buddies? If so, who?

[elvis_knits]

Pome is not making any sense. She believes Socio is scum, and scum tried to kill e_k night 2. Why would scum kill his lover? That is beyond WIFOM. Scum wouldn't commit suicide. I still feel good about my vote.

I agree.

vote Pome

[elvis_knits]

Good game everyone, and thanks to Batt for modding! The setup was a fun puzzle to solve.

Pome, you did a good job and didn't panic! I think it was the claim that caught you in the end, but that's always the gamble as scum.

lol @ me and socio being so suspicious of each other.