Mini 891 - British Comedy Mafia (Game Over)

[Netopalis]

Hey, folks, sorry, I've been insanely busy lately due to finals coming up. Rest assured, I'm here. Analysis will be posted later tonight.

[Netopalis]

Position on Lyman:
To me, his play can be read in one of two ways: Either as scum who is trying to use a fatalistic appeal to emotion in order to deter votes or as a frustrated townie who is annoyed at the suspicion that grew from practically nothing. Personally, I like the latter read - I can definitely sympathize with that position as it's happened to me a ton of times (Bandwagoning early against me for defending a player, for questioning the speed of bandwagons, for discussing mafia theory and for questioning the efficacy of voting without reason after discussion has started, to name a few). In all cases, I've tended to...lose my temper a bit and feel quite a lot like his posts sound. He could still be scum who's putting on a good act...but I don't feel that this is really sufficient to push for a lynch.

[Netopalis]

Nobody, yet. To me, all are null reads because nobody has done anything particularly scummy.

[Netopalis]

I don't really feel that the request for prods was premature. All players received a PM notifying them of the game startup, and it's been up for 3 days. The fact that it was done in a second post just means that it was more of an afterthought.

[Netopalis]

Appeal to emotion.

[Netopalis]

Still alive, still needing to catch up. Sorry, due to finals and my other game picking up, I've not had as much time. Expect a good post within 24 hours.

[Netopalis]

Well, I didn't like the Lyman wagon either, but he's claimed, so the town should unvote regardless. His claim is one which is easy to substantiate.

Budja's play does look odd...He consistently follows the crowd and seems to be trying to agree with everyone to the point that it stands out a bit. However, I'm not really ready to vote yet - I want to hear from him before I do. Budja: Please post your thoughts on each player in the game and why you suspect anyone you suspect. The quality of your answers will determine whether I vote for you or not.


Also, I have a gut read on Locke Lamora as scum. However, since it is nothing more than a gut...it deserves no further mention.

[Netopalis]

Actually, I have a theory as to how his flavor fits...but I'm not going to post it in thread because I don't want to hand him a good fakeclaim. Just suffice it to say that I find his claim to be reasonable.

[Netopalis]

So there would still be a role flip.

That could...that could actually be exceptionally good for the town. If it's used, we have a pro-town analyzer without concerns of conflict of interest or a, for all practical purposes, dead scum.

[Netopalis]

No, the player I would choose would be dead for all game purposes, it says, except still being able to talk in the thread.

This is where I got that from. "For all game purposes", I would assume, includes a role flip.

[Netopalis]

Spoon fed me an answer? Where else would I find this from? What are you implying?

[Netopalis]

Oh, please. I'm no idiot...Check my recent games. I play much better than that as scum. The only reason that I've not been as good in this game is because I've had finals.

Seriously, though, I think that this is an incredibly unlikely fakeclaim....

[Netopalis]

Pheasable? And no, it's really not. That's a really, really odd role which would be a horrible fakeclaim because it cannot be easily faked. Roleblocker, cop, tracker and doc can all be faked. However, this one cannot because, unless Lyman is roleblocked, we will know whether or not he was telling the truth.

[Netopalis]

It's possible, but it's highly improbable. Scum have nothing to gain from a claim like this. Besides, it's testable. If he fails the test, lynch him. Pretty simple.

[Netopalis]

Lyman: Please ask for mod clarification on the flip issue.

BC: I can't predict what roles will be present, but I DO know that scum in general like safer claims that are more close to the norm. If his action doesn't go through either from the fact that he's scum or he's roleblocked, then we're no worse off lynching him tomorrow than we are lynching him today.

[Netopalis]

...and

Vote: BloodCovenant

. You sound like you're rather desperate to get rid of Lyman and prevent his role from achieving fruition.

[Netopalis]

Even if he has the ability, I wouldn't recommend it. The benefit of this will be having a confirmed innocent scumhunter, and I doubt that if Lyman were in that position the town would follow his lead.

[Netopalis]

Imaginality...I think he's probably our best pick, given the limited set of players that we have. Alternatively, I guess that I could always replace out and see about setting something up with a player you folks would trust more, having them replace me and then Lyman using his ability...

[Netopalis]

I'd maintain that while there is 1 fewer lynch if he does hit scum, the chances of him hitting scum is fairly low, while the chances of hitting correctly with a lynch if we did have a solid, confirmed player directing the town is much, much higher. Still, this is a matter of opinion...

[Netopalis]

Unvote, Vote: Budja

And that's a blatant copy of what I was saying.

[Netopalis]

I was hoping you had something further to say on the matter rather than just parroting my opinion.

[Netopalis]

Macavity: Don't you see the value in having a really good player that we all know is town? We *know* that their arguments are not scum-driven and we can trust them to be fair and impartial. It creates a really, really useful role if used...

[Netopalis]

Sure, go ahead and ask. I'd also urge you to use it tonight. I have a feeling that the scum will be targeting you tonight; asking you to save it is, I think, marginally scummy.

[Netopalis]

I don't know why it wouldn't be - the treestumped player can't vote - they can only post in thread...I'm not sure how it would affect mylo.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and Lyman, ask the mod about priority, if you could - what happens if you and the mafia target the same person?

[Netopalis]

Why? Don't forget, it also makes that player unnightkillable. That means that whoever is killed will be able to be here permanently. I wouldn't consider it to be killing a player - more like trading that player's vote for a role reveal, and really, one vote doesn't help the town THAT much, comparatively.

[Netopalis]

Why? You still haven't articulated that.

[Netopalis]

We don't essentially kill them. The primary function of killing a player in Mafia is removing them from the game.

[Netopalis]

...but if we were to use it on somebody crappy, then we've just got somebody crappy yammering at us for the rest of the game without any help whatsoever.

[Netopalis]

...and reveal their role. You can't leave that part out. It's rather essential.

[Netopalis]

Wait a minute....So if someone were to NK someone you stumped, they'd then be unable to post?

[Netopalis]

I mean on a subsequent day.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, please do, because that's one big assumption I was making too.

[Netopalis]

That's what I was trying to say. Essentially, if I read Lyman's role right, he creates an unnightkillable confirmed townie without a vote or else kills a mafia

[Netopalis]

The player wouldn't affect numbers for the purposes of declaring a win condition because the only reason that we have preempting win conditions is that they simply reach the conclusion which has already been decided. If that player can't vote, they couldn't vote in the hypothetical situations either, and they don't count for either side.

*shrugs* I guess that you folks do have a point, though. I still maintain that it would be useful, but will grumble silently to myself in the corner.

[Netopalis]

It's called reading the relevant Wiki article.

[Netopalis]

And that's why we've been asking Lyman to answer questions, no?

[Netopalis]

Sorry, still a bit behind, will post within 24 hours.

[Netopalis]

I still need to finish my reread, but I do have some good points, I think.

In re: Budja, I think that the strongest argument in favor of his lynch is the fact that he really has contributed nothing to the game. In the words of David Byrne, he's "talking a lot, but not saying anything". Active lurking is one of the prime scumtells, as scum want to be active enough to avoid the lurkervote, but they don't want to stick their neck out very far, lest it be chopped off. In every post, he is agreeing with someone, in nopost does he advance a significant theory of his own.

I also am really not liking Danakillsu's vote on Josh Lyman. He's a claimed power role, and a rather confirmable one at that. To me, it's obvious that while Josh may be the play tomorrow, heis certainly not it today. Even more troublesome is the lack of any real backing for the attack on Josh other than vague accusations of a defeatist attitude. I know and understand what he is saying, but he needs to say it himself rather than having someone else make the case for him.


Vote stays on Budja for now. I could be convinced to go after Dana, though.

[Netopalis]

Well, if nothing else, it IS effectively a vig.

It's confirmable if, of course, we end up with a treestump tomorrow. If we don't, then we can lynch him.

[Netopalis]

Well, the difference between an unnightkillable doc and a treestumper is the fact that the doc is a passive role. However, there is an objective manifestation of the lumberjack role that Josh

cannot fake

. While he cannot be definitely cleared if that role is not used,

if it is used and a treestump is created, he is cleared.

[Netopalis]

Well, as BC said, it doesn't make sense as a scum power role. Scum almost never have 1-shot vig abilities and the scum having a lumberjack role is just silly. The only side that it makes sense on is town.

[Netopalis]

Oh, sorry. IF you felt that the answer was obvious, why would you ask?

Seriously, though, I've never heard of a scumteam having a one-shot vig, even in coney island. It unbalances it too much to give them a second kill.

[Netopalis]

He already gave it.

[Netopalis]

If one exists. It may be that we're lucky...

[Netopalis]

Ok.....
First of all, there is no point in scum killing a stump unless the stump is a particularly good player, since killing somebody else puts them one round closer to LYLO. Second, this IS a town role because it is effectively a vig if it hits scum. We then become one vote further away from LYLO.

Second, the resultant role is a role that has been used before. See the wiki article:
http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... Tree_Stump

Now, of course, this is a night action that creates a tree stump. That's fine. In fact, it's rather what we expect in theme games, as they're often plays on obscure roles used elsewhere.

Third, you've not explained why you feel that the claim is a lie, other than that you don't seem to understand what the role does. Please explain the following:

A) Why do you think that we need to lynch Lyman despite the potential for confirming him?

B) Why do you feel that his claim is fraudulent?

C) What made you suspicious of Lyman to begin with? What acts of his do you find scummy?

[Netopalis]

Try reading forbiddanlight's TTGL mafia.

I stand corrected. There's one instance out of almost 900 games, though....it's EXTREMELY rare. I would submit that a mafia lumberjack has never been played before and would be rather pointless.

Budja, he already nameclaimed. Also, what BC wagon?

[Netopalis]

It is a role that creates tree stumps - I took the loss of the night action as a given with the loss of the vote and the other effects that it has on the player. Regardless, my point still stands that this is

not

the sort of role that would normally be given to the mafia.

[Netopalis]

Chinaman: So, let me get this straight, your first argument is "He may be telling the truth, but the mafia may make it so that it looks like he's lying, therefore we need to lynch him before they can do that?" Honestly.

In response to B, if it is used as a vig would be used - against scum - it can be useful in a pro-town fashion. Originally, I thought it would have value if used against a pro-town player - I was envisioning a particularly good scumhunter who would be confirmed and unnightkillable and who would thus be able to lead the town. Unfortunately, since the stump can still be NK'd, there's no real point in that. Still can be used against the mafia, though.

I was hoping you had something better than to tell me to look back at your posts. Since you haven't, I'll have to refute each of your points one by one.

Your first point against Josh is potential buddying with Snow and distancing from Budja. I really don't see it from the posts, and I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The attempt at the mass prod is a null-tell at best. I really don't get why everybody read it as scummy other than confirmation bias.

Don't know why you even bothered to mention the soft-claim if you felt it was a null-tell, which it is, as soft-claiming town gives absolutely no more information, since nobody is going to soft-claim another faction.

Attack over an appeal to emotion - valid, but not nearly enough for the suspicion that you place on him.

Attack because it would "Get the game going". So would lynching any player. Get to the point.

Argument that he's faking lurking - this was finals season, and if I recall, he's a college student. I think it's wholly understandable.

Everything else is you not understanding the role or arguing that the claim is fake.

You really have not established enough evidence to support the lynch of a claimed player and have desperately tunneled him since your third post. Every post with the exception of two has been an attack on him, and to me, that reads like scum going after someone that has had a small bandwagon against them, then urging it forward.

I am not voting for Lyman today, and I honestly don't care what you have to say. He may be mafia, but he's claimed a town power role, and I feel that we should at least give him the chance to confirm, no matter how slight it might be.


____

Deathsauce, I'd argue that it's even more unlikely with another win condition. The only other common win conditions are lyncher, survivor, cult and jester, and it wouldn't make sense with any of those. Further, his play has been inconsistent with lyncher, jester and survivor.

[Netopalis]

I want him to use it because otherwise, we're going to lynch him and, if he's telling the truth, it's a mislynch. Here are the potential outcomes:

A) He hits scum - Success!
B) He hits town - Sad, but he's confirmed and we have one less suspicious townie
C) He's roleblocked - We lynch him anyway

Either way, the net loss for the town is equal in B and C, and there is a chance of A, which is a huge improvement.


Further, I don't consider defense of someone else to be a scumtell. I do it in practically every game that I'm in because I find that the vast majority of mislynches are done for crap reasons. Therefore, I consider it my duty to poke holes in any case that I consider to be weak because, in my experience, those weak cases are generally mislynches. I also don't like how you're setting this up: If JL is town, then I'm scum. If JL is scum, then I'm scum. However, it seems to me that, as a townie, I have a duty to play for the good of the town, and that means working to stop lynches that I have no faith in. Therefore, I'm not going to play against my win condition just to appease you.

[Netopalis]

Chinaman: The same can be said about a regular vig, but I'd expect a vig to prove himself here. I think we can trust him not to hit any of our best players, and I think that based on that limitation, he's going to have a better chance of hitting scum.

You're right, a roleblocker is just the most common intervening act. He could have his target killed, but that would presumably show up in the night scene. He could have his target protected, but I don't know that doc protect works against it. I said "roleblocked" for ease of use because I didn't want to go through the wiki and list the 10-20 roles that could be used to stop his action from succeeding. I fail to see how this paints me as scum.

Further, it doesn't matter whether his role is bad for town or not, so long as he is town-aligned. Arguably, I think that it's better than a vig for town because if he does hit a townie, that townie is able to still contribute to the game from a confirmed perspective, yet a mafia player would have no real benefit from continued posting. Either way, you either believe his claim or not. Personally, I believe it for reasons stated earlier.

As for not listening to anything you say, I've consistently responded to your points - I've just been unsatisfied with them. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean that I'm not listening, it means that I think you suck at this game.

You have not responded to the tunnel vision argument, nor have you responded to my questioning of your original finding of Lyman as scum. Further, you continue to issue these directives to the town without really substantiating them. Classic scum move - spend a lot of time talking about who the town should lynch without really explaining

why

.

[Netopalis]

Even if Josh Lyman is telling the truth, he's too dangerous for me to keep around. I don't want anyone to have that kind of power. That's why my vote stays on him.

What the crap, man? You might as well just go ahead and claim scum.

Unvote, vote: Danakillsu

[Netopalis]

What I have a problem with here is the way that he worded that. He basically said that it's too powerful of a role for a townie to have, and he'd rather nobody had it. To me, it sounds like scum trying to get rid of a power role.

[Netopalis]

Can anybody tell me why it would be a bad idea to wait on the off-chance that Lyman MIGHT clear himself tonight? Anybody? I mean, sure, it's probable that scum has a roleblocker, but there is a chance that they don't, and I think we're all going to be smacking ourselves on the forehead if we don't at least give it a shot.

Still not really seeing what he did pre-claim that was so serious either. I see some light tells, but nothing hugely serious. Certainly not compared to the fuss you folks are making about him.

[Netopalis]

Need some more posts from Imaginality and Deathsauce.

[Netopalis]

Theme games do not necessarily have more power roles than non-theme games, and your reaction implies that you feel that this role is significantly different than a one-shot vig. Yes, a one-shot vig could hit town, but we generally use them anyway. D1 lynches are statistically worse than random, but lynching is the correct move.

[Netopalis]

Mod: Could the Christmas Fairy see fit to issue us a deadline extension?

[Netopalis]

Let me explain....

The endgame happens when mafia are equal to or outnumber the town because there is no point to playing out a finished game. The Mafia has enough votes to end the game and kill off every townie. So, for example, a situation with 2 town and 2 mafia, one of which is stumped is NOT a loss for the town, it's LYLO. A situation with 3 town and 2 mafia, one of which is stumped is not even LYLO.

[Netopalis]

No, no, I'm saying that they essentially count as dead for endgame purposes.

[Netopalis]

No, it's solid fact. The

only

reason that games end early due to endgaming is because the game is a foregone conclusion. Take, for example, a game in which there are 3 townies and 3 scum left:

D1 - Townies can't force a lynch on a non-scum, best they can hope for is a no-lynch draw.
N1 - Townie killed
D2 - 2 townies left, 3 mafia. Mafia force a lynch.
N2 - Townie killed
D3 - 1 townie left, obviously lynched

Instead of going through all of that, we end the game early because the game has reached a foregone conclusion. If the mafia member has no vote, it would make no sense to count them towards endgame totals because

they have no vote

and thus cannot create a situation which would make the game a foregone conclusion.

[Netopalis]

China, I seem to notice two threads in your arguments that I think are getting a bit too blurred. On the one hand, you seem to be saying that you don't believe the claim. On the other, you seem to be saying that you believe the claim but are arguing for a policy lynch? Do you think you could clear up this confusion a bit?

[Netopalis]

Sorry, I've been extremely busy lately, so I haven't been able to check up on Mafiascum. I'm updating everything now. I will hammer Budja before the deadline, as per my previous reasons for voting for him, but I want to hear from him first - if he IS town, those pre-lynch reactions could be useful for tomorrow.

[Netopalis]

Also, BC, I'm not sure I like how you structured your post...You could have just said "There is scum on the Budja wagon" without the impossible-to-fail conditionals that you set up. Seems like you're trying to lend false credibility to your assertion.

[Netopalis]

Sounds like a player that's given up...I'm extremely tempted to go ahead and hammer, but I want to wait until I hear from some other players in re: BC's statements.

[Netopalis]

I meant I wanted to hear from everybody else about your posts....The stuff that I mentioned plus your two mafia gaffe.

[Netopalis]

Note for tomorrow - SnowBunny is making me very, very nervous right now. I really don't like her "LYNCH HIM! LYNCH HIM NOW!" mentality. It is advantageous to the town to move slowly and deliberately.

[Netopalis]

That's not necessarily good play. Tenacity is good, but tunnel vision is not. He might be scum, he might not be, but your actions are anti-town regardless of his alignment.

[Netopalis]

How is adding extra time to the day anti-town? It gives scum more opportunities to slip up and say something stupid.

[Netopalis]

You.....you.....you just claimed Mason! And you're asking us to go to night

without revealing your partner

! No way I'm hammering before we hear more.

And I'll go ahead and say it - I know that your little hypothesis is false because I am vanilla and have no further information or role.

Nobody else follow up on his little rolefishing attempt here. Unless he verifies that Mason claim, I recommend lynching him. Immediately.

[Netopalis]

Sure. He's trying to get people to claim if they support his theory that vanilla townies have additional powers.

[Netopalis]

Quite simply, the reason that I am requesting that he reveal his partner is that he'll most likely die tonight without being able to clear his partner. I'd rather us have a cleared partner than a non-cleared one.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and also, if this isn't proper play with a single claimed mason, please let me know. I've never run into this situation in a game before, so I'm not sure if there's standard procedure or not.

[Netopalis]

If he has a partner. Honestly, part of me is wondering whether he's scum trying to shore up his town cred.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* It's true that I have seen him make sillier plays as town, I guess.

[Netopalis]

Why is it so bad? It's entirely possible that we could make it to a 2v1 endgame with Chinaman's partner still not revealed. 2 players claim it...what happens then? Plus, it allows us to focus on one less player - confirmed townies are generally good for the town.

[Netopalis]

Also, to anyone paying attention, I had an convo with someone where I stated

I believe that the odds were good that town had more special stuff (knowledge, power, etc) then we did pure vanilla. Part of the reason I believe this is because I know there are 2 town that know eachother is town. It's not a super cool power/knowledge role, but it's more than plain vanilla townie.

Also, BC, in re: your endgame scenario:
No, that's not what would happen. One player is actually Chinaman's partner, another is a townie who is not Chinaman's partner and a third is mafia. None of the 3 can confirm the other.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, clarification would be good...I had a great deal of difficulty parsing that sentence - particularly, the sentence "I believe that the odds were good that town had more special stuff than we did pure vanilla".

[Netopalis]

BC: There was a rather long discussion on the subject a while back, during which Chinaman argued over several posts that there are no VTs in this game.

[Netopalis]

....You're a loony.

Seriously, why did you choose now to claim other than "Because I wanted to?" You really don't justify that choice at all in your post, and that bothers me.

[Netopalis]

My friend, if casting suspicion on Chinaman's play here is scummy, then I am guilty as charged. However, his play has been terrible, anti-town and has been moving me more and more consistently to the scum side of things.

[Netopalis]

Certainly. My suspicion of Chinaman began during the whole debate over Lyman's veracity. He attacks Lyman right out of the gate for particularly weak reasons, then proceeds to tunnel against him. He urges a quicklynch and pushes until Lyman claims, at which point he attacks what is largely a credible claim for the vague reason that it "doesn't sound like a town ability", despite his later accusation that there must be at least half, if not more power roles (A spurious assertion, IMHO.)

He seems to come to the ridiculous conclusion that Lyman does indeed have the ability, but as a scum ability. This seems rather silly - giving scum two kills unbalances the game in a ridiculous way, and no experienced mod would do this without some absolutely insane power roles on the town side. He also repeatedly argues that it is not provable, even though the existence of a player that is vigged but could still talk in thread would seem to clear Lyman. Why this is not a provable claim is never explained, save for the idea that he could be roleblocked and "then we'd just have to lynch him anyway", which is perhaps the worst justification for a lynch I've ever seen. If there is a chance of a townie confirming himself, it is anti-town to suggest that because the action might fail, we should go ahead and lynched the claimed player - especially since the grounds for pushing Lyman to claim were so terrible.

After he realizes that he can no longer get Lyman lynched that easily, he decides to switch targets and tunnel against Budja. Budja had indeed been acting scummy, and was a worthy target of the lynch today. However, Chinaman's ferocity seems to indicate that he is either a town version of Leeeeeroy Jenkins or that he is scum trying to get anybody but scum lynched.

Finally, with just a few days left on the deadline, he comes up with a Mason claim. No reason for the claim. No partner mentioned. He just decides that the time is right to claim Mason. If he is scum who did not have the opportunity to night talk, he's probably expecting his scumbuddies to show up and clear him, forming a falsemason team. This is bad play, yes, but given his play up to this point, I really don't think it's all that farfetched.

The only reason that I have not attacked Chinaman up to this point is because I know from previous experience how bad his play tends to be. This goes beyond the limits of believability, however, and pushes me well towards the scummy category.

[Netopalis]

China: Post 430 does not address any of our concerns sufficiently enough. It is rather cryptic and badly written. Please repost your reasons for your actions in plain English.

[Netopalis]

China: Exactly how many mini themes have you played?

[Netopalis]

Net is not scum either. Scum would have hammered me and not attacked the mason.

That's assuming you are town, which you are not.

@DS: Net was asking for the other mason to be outed. That's scum as claiming scum.

Yeah, that's not a broad statement at all. At all. Why not examine the reasons behind my request?

[Netopalis]

Sure there is. I think China is lying about his claim.

[Netopalis]

Mac: No, nothing is impossible. Due to my experience and thinking, odds are (in my mind) that we have very few VT's and I have a gut read that his claim was false. Short enough?

China, how many mini themes have you played? Do I really need to go back through completed games to give you some statistics?

[Netopalis]

Fuzzy: You're going to need to elaborate more than that. What exactly about my post in 438 sets you off?

[Netopalis]

Oh, sorry. I thought you were attacking me for it. Thanks, then.

[Netopalis]

Is it? I don't see any votes...all I see is Chinaman flailing wildly against me, throwing out completely illogical and random attacks...and convincing a few people who should probably know better.

[Netopalis]

Nobody has really refuted my points against Chinaman. He's ridiculously scummy in this game, and an unwarranted Mason claim does little to avert that scumminess. I will drop the case if someone can find a good, solid reason for a town-aligned mason to claim right before a lynch....But until I see such a post, or I see a better candidate for today, I'm not moving unless we run up against a deadline.

[Netopalis]

Incidentally, I'm going to be on V/LA from midnight to 8 PM tomorrow due to an excruciatingly long drive.

[Netopalis]

No, I did explain it. Nobody's responded to my points, and as for being a claimed mason, it seems awfully convenient that you claim it, then use it to defend yourself against the lynch repeatedly. Almost as if you had planned that little tactic.

Either explain why you claimed so close to the deadline or face the rope. I want a good reason, not just that "it was time".

[Netopalis]

Well, whatever the reason, I think we would be remiss for not discussing it some more.

I'm also frustrated at the fact that we haven't heard from Lyman since the 27th, Locke Lamora since the 23rd, Dana since the 21st or Imaginality since the 3rd.

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: Just realized that Locke Lamora and Dana are being replaced. Smashing.

Mod: Prods on Imaginality and Lyman, please?

At the very least, we need to wait until these replacements chime in. I hate it when we go to night and scum kills off all the replacements that haven't posted. Really hurts the game.

[Netopalis]

No, the point is that someone will get replaced, but before they get a chance to post, they get killed off. It's an effective tactic for scum, since it keeps new content and viewpoints from entering the game.

[Netopalis]

If you believe that, why are you voting for me?

[Netopalis]

Once more, they are both town.
I can't say this enough.

Yep, you're probably right scumja.

This was referring to me and China, I believe. You say we're both town, but that Budja is scum. Now, you're saying that me and Budja are scum. Your inconsistency baffles me.

[Netopalis]

The only reason that I was wanting to lynch you is because your mason claim made no sense. While I disagree with the play, that is a logical reason, and I'll back off of it. I still think your play is scummy....but I suppose it's not all that farfetched.

I like Budja's play a bit better since the claim...but lynching him will unfortunately provide us with the most information today.

Unvote, vote: Budja

[Netopalis]

Because, unfortunately, we're on a deadline, and I think that you're the only player we'll be able to organize a lynch on before then.

[Netopalis]

Unvote

Scratch that, missed the deadline extension. Sorry about that.

[Netopalis]

I was going to make a case after I get back in tomorrow, but it may have to be postponed 'till Friday. No time tonight, unfortunately.

[Netopalis]

First, if you think he's lying, why then ask for the partner?.

Do I *really* need to spell this out? I think he doesn't have a partner and that the fact that he is partnerless would be exposed if he was forced to give us a name.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* I play to catch the scum, not to convince others that I'm town.

[Netopalis]

I would be willing to support a BC lynch, reasons to be posted later today. They have to do with the discussion over Lyman's ability, though, and I need to go back and reread that section very carefully.

While I agree that Budja has been rather opportunistic, and while yes, he was an excellent lynch candidate before the claim, I feel that his posts after the claim are enough to push him further into the town category.

Snow_bunny is someone to look at in future days. While she has been extremely scummy, we haven't discussed enough and it won't give us enough information tomorrow. We can debate her positions at dawn and see where they take us.

[Netopalis]

Dana is being replaced, JL has been prodded and will be replaced. Points about BC coming up, but to make a long story short, he does what Budja was doing, but more extremely and less obviously.

[Netopalis]

During the whole Lyman's role thing, I notice BC still pushing for Lyman's lynch, despite the fact that he seemingly believes the claim. I also find his attacks during this period to be utterly silly. He attacks me for stating that there would be a roleflip, then attacks Imaginality for answering why I might know that because he supposedly "spoon fed" me an answer. Rather ridiculous claims, really, given that Lyman had stated that the player would be dead but still able to post.

Interestingly enough, he asks the following question: "Would His PR make sense as a scum role?" which I took to be a rhetorical statement that it wouldn't make sense as a scumrole. However, he responds to my post about this as follows:
"No that's not what I said. I asked if it made sense as a scum role. This is Coney Island, of course it could make sense as a scum role. "

Strange response, isn't it? It seems to me as if he is trying to get other people to figure out why he doesn't like a particular role or player, then get them to make his case for him, while he takes the credit. Classic scum move.

A few posts later, he asks me why I felt that a stumping scum would unbalance the game, but puts it in spoiler tags because he feels that it would look too much like rolefishing. This does two things for him: It lets him say, "I didn't actually expect him to answer! I put it in spoiler tags!" and it also shows that he is actively thinking about how to make himself *look* the most pro-town.

He's also tunneling later against Budja, a target who is ridiculously easy to attack. This alone is not a scumtell, but the ferocity which he attacks Budja to the exclusion of all others is. He even telegraphs this a few posts earlier, when he realizes that Lyman isn't going to get lynched. His goal here is to cause a mislynch with as little information going to the town as possible.

Also note how eager he is to hop on his misread of Fuzzyman's post - he really wants me lynched, despite the fact that he's never really given a good reason why. Is this just to shut me up? Does he feel threatened by my posts? He makes a definitive statement that "Net dies tommorrow", seemingly deciding it for the town without hearing from anybody else.

All in all, BC is extremely scummy, and his play makes no sense as town. There is practically no town justification for most of his actions, and I feel confident that we have caught scum.

[Netopalis]

3. Just my guess, though, since it's the normal number on Minis. However, I'm not really attacking you for the perceived slip-up.

[Netopalis]

Wait... could someone draw out the case on me? Budja, i've been DYING to hear yours. Mac, show me my posts that were scummy.

You have yet to respond to my large post.

[Netopalis]

Interesting...very interesting....No stump, no mason dead....I'm not quite sure what to make of this. I'll be by to post a little later after I've had time to digest.

[Netopalis]

China, it's a good thing for you that you claimed Mason, because otherwise I'd be pushing for your lynch so hard right now....

LOL, I really honestly don't have to explain crap.

Listen to yourself. Is this honestly how you think? Do you really think that you're impressing anyone? This is how you lost Trendy and Subversive, and it's not helpful at all. You need to respond to questions posed to you, you need to give well-thought-out and logical reasons for your votes and you need to stop acting so arrogant and abrasive. Seriously.

[Netopalis]

Deathsauce: Constructing rule 15 as you are would prohibit night-talking as well, which would be ridiculous. Roles trump game rules.

[Netopalis]

Personally, I've never seen either ability in games that I've played.

[Netopalis]

Oh, and also....

Why were you so suspicious of Lyman given:

A) Your odd role

B) Your belief that everybody had a role

C) Your belief that no role would be completely unheard of

To me, this directly contradicts your suspicion of Lyman's claim. What,

exactly

seemed scummy about it to you?

[Netopalis]

Post 141: BC said that Imaginality's answering of why I thought that the stumping target would flip was spoon-feeding me an answer. Post 141 is me expressing my surprise that he would honestly think that I would *need* to be spoon-fed an answer, given that Lyman had already answered the question.

Budja's Parroting: My problem with Budja early on was that he would basically latch on to whatever argument everybody else was making and agree to it. In fact, until China's claim, I really don't think that he put forth any of his own suspicions - he just suspected the people that other suspected for the reasons that other people suspected them. (Correct me if I'm wrong.) In my experience, scum do this a lot because it prevents them from having to stick their own neck on the line.

Post 288: Not really setting up a lynch - if you want to attack me for setting up a lynch, use my statement that I wanted to look heavily into SB today rather than this one. My argument here was trying to explain why BC's theory about Lyman was invalid. He stated that there was practically no way that Lyman would be able to confirm himself that night, so we should just go ahead and lynch him. I disagreed, calling that logic crap for the reasons outlined in my post. My goal was not to set Lyman up for a D2 lynch, it was to prevent a claimed power role from being lynched D1. This is, however, why so many people are rather shocked that you didn't use your stumping ability.

[Netopalis]

China: First, let me say that what you propose is actually an ingenious thing. I hadn't considered timing to prove daytalking...While it's not a definitive proof, it's quite creative, and I applaud the effort.

However, I'm not following why you're going after Imaginality. To me, he seems to be quite a bit more pro-town than several other players indicted in the vote analysis.

Personally, I'm going to be pushing for Snow_Bunny or Kikuchiyo. While voting pattern analysis is useful, I don't think that it's foolproof. I've seen all-town votes on mislynches several times, and while it doesn't make sense when you sit down and think about it, the mob mentality is quite strong in these games. Often times, townies will latch onto anyone showing the slightest bit of suspicious behavior D1 and run with it. In all honesty, despite the little hiccup with the claim, after Lyman claimed, Budja was always sort of assumed to be the lynch - I really don't think it should be seen as two separate wagons as much as it should be seen as a single delayed wagon.

At any rate, I'm going to elaborate on my S_B/Kikuchiyo reads a bit later. Right now, I'm too busy celebrating now that my first semester's grades are out, but I'll post a bit later tonight.

[Netopalis]

Also, China, why the backflip on the possibility of Lyman/Sanhora's role being anti-town?

[Netopalis]

Faraday: With all due respect, I believe that my questions to Chinaman regarding his claim were warranted. Even if you disagree with the reasons, I would hope that you would understand them. Here was my thought process:

1) Chinaman was extremely scummy in my book. He made desperate arguments which tended to grasp at straws, continued attacking a claimed power role, accused people because they claimed VT and he felt that there were no VTs in a theme game and generally played in an anti-town fashion.

2) Unprompted, Chinaman claims Mason, revealing no partner, and stating no good reason for his claim. I, for one, am mystified by it. Why on earth would he claim this, unless it was to capitalize on confirmed townie status as scum?

3) The only reason that Masons are practically unlynchable is that they have partners who can confirm them. Therefore, it is an extremely convenient non-pressured claim from scum, as they can simply vaguely say that they are a mason without providing a partner.

4) Interestingly enough, he claims my

other

top suspect as a mason partner. I'm not wanting to push for their lynch now....but I do think that we should take a

serious

look at Chinaman and BC if we don't get a good lynch in within the next 2-3 days.

My point is that, under ideal circumstances, asking for a Mason's partner is not ideal play, given the circumstances surrounding the claim, I think it was fully warranted. I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around exactly why he chose to do this. It wasn't to save BC, as Budja was at L-1 at the time, and the only thing which derailed that was his claim.

[Netopalis]

EBWODP: Another thing you should consider in re: the VT claim is the circumstances surrounding it. The only reason that I claimed was to dispel a seriously wrong argument that Chinaman had advanced several times - that there were no vanilla townies in this game. He was using this as a reason for Budja's lynch, and I felt that given the number of times that he had made this assertion, it would be best to nip it in the bud before it was brought up again and again. If you need references to posts where he makes this assertion, I'll be glad to quote them a bit later.

[Netopalis]

Why? You need to give reasons for your statements.

[Netopalis]

Your last post was 4 pages ago. Are you saying that you have nothing to add over those 4 pages?

[Netopalis]

I never got back around to my accusations against Chinaman due to the claim. I sort of lost track of it, actually. What exactly do you not like about me asking what standard procedure is with mason? I've never seen a Mason claim quite like this one, and I was hoping that someone with more experience would have some more information about what the best course of action was. I'm not exactly sure why you consider that to be scummy.

[Netopalis]

How exactly did Josh lie? Did I miss that?

[Netopalis]

AAAAAAAHHHHH! THE WALLS! THE WALLS!!!!! THEY'RE MULTIPLYING!!!!!!

[Netopalis]

I've been putting off making a huge post since I was hoping the site would improve, but since it's not...Working on a post now.

[Netopalis]

Players I think are potentially scum:
Snow_Bunny
Sanhora
Kikuchiyo
Faraday

Reasoning:
Snow_Bunny:
This may be a reaction to play style, but I don't think so. Early on, she states that she's going to pursue her target until lynched, no holds barred. To me, this is incredibly scummy. Meta is no excuse for anti-town actions, and relentlessness to the point of absurdity is particularly awful. This is especially bad given that her target is one that she picked in her 9th post, based on absolutely no stated reasoning. In fact, most of her arguments can be summed up by simply saying "Moar votes, plz." That's not how you play Mafia, unless you are indeed Mafia. If you ARE mafia, it's an incredibly useful tactic, given that it reduces the amount of information going to the town.

Additionally, in her 46th post, she states that she doesn't find links to be a strong tell. Compare to 44 in which she uses a link to justify a vote.

Further, there's the whole "Net Scum Claim" thing that was so absolutely ridiculous. She claims that I claimed scum, without explaining why, how or where. I think she was referring to my asking about the masonry...but as others have said, that is a perfectly logical request given certain circumstances.

Finally, she utterly fails in her posts today. She claims the supposed link between myself and fuzzy as a justification for voting for me (despite her earlier statement that it's not a strong tell) and states that Fuzzy's no lynch points to

my

guilt. Illogical, irrelevant and clearly an attempt to lynch one of the more active players for little-to-no reason at all.

Sanhora:
Not so worried about the role stuff, but I am a bit more concerned with her posting style today. It seems as if she gave the game a very light read before posting, without going more heavily into the justifications for the attacks on Lyman. To me, this is scummy - I find that scum often go light on the early game reads because they feel that it's not important. It's a minor tell, though. Her posting isn't the greatest, but that alone is insufficient for a lynch.

Kikuchiyo:
Insert standard lurkerscum/hiding in plain sight argument here. His play is consistent with the profile and makes little sense from any other perspective.

Faraday:
This is more of a meta read, but Faraday seems to be much, much less useful in this game than she usually is. I'm not really ready to commit to her being scum, but I could definitely see it. There are some players who are just weaker when they play as scum....

Unvote, vote: Snow_bunny

[Netopalis]

I wouldn't say a pro-town read...More of a neutral read. My breakdown goes something like this:

Pro-town:
BloodCovenant
Chinaman
Imaginality


Neutral:
Deathsauce
Fuzzyman


Scum:
Snow_Bunny
Faraday (Halfway between neutral and scummy)
Kikuchiyo
Sanhora



It really pained me to put BC and Chinaman up there in the pro-town list, for the record. Maybe I should have relabeled it "Least likely to be scum"...

[Netopalis]

Ugh, sorry, missed Faraday's first post. I apologize, Faraday, when I was typing, I was thinking of somebody else. You're absolutely right, I don't have a meta read on you. As far as Belgrove goes, you might want to contrast it with her play in Hellsing Mafia. The problem is, this may be genuine inactivity rather than the intentional sort.

Sanhora...The problem I have isn't activity, it's the type of scumhunting that she's doing. It seems rather uninformed, honestly. I'm having a bit of trouble quantifying it. I mean, clearly, she's not the lynch today, but if we don't see a stumping tonight, she might be a good person to look into on later days.

[Netopalis]

. And thus, the chain of suspicious go Net > Fuzzy.

I though that this was referring to linking me to Fuzzy? I could be wrong.

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree on the mason claim thing. I'm not budging from the fact that I believe that it was a logical pro-town move. Take from that what you will.

[Netopalis]

Sanhora: What I mean is that I suspect that there's something wrong with your case, but I'm not exactly sure what it is. That being said, the more I think about it, the less sure I am.

[Netopalis]

I suppose I should start installing a revolving door.

[Netopalis]

Really, it seems more and more to me that you are trying to distract us from going after Net. Sorry, that won't happen.

By us, do you mean yourself only? I've not seen anybody else arguing for my lynch today. The consensus has been that it's either you or Fuzzy.

[Netopalis]

So, you're saying that it's down to me, you, Deathsauce, Fuzzy and Kikuchiyo? DS/Fuzzy/Kikuchiyo WOULD make som esense, I suppose. I could see it.

Unvote, vote: Fuzzyman

[Netopalis]

Begrudgingly, yeah. I definitely believe Imaginality's, and it's true that I believed Lyman's before Sanhora replaced...And it's also true that I usually find Chinaman's playstyle to be questionable...And the resulting list of scum does make sense. Therefore, at least for now, I'm going to accept the claims as factual. I'll be forced to change my tune if we lynch one of the 3 and they flip town, though, since I don't really feel that you're as scummy as the rest.

[Netopalis]

Deathsauce: At the time that I started attacking Chinaman and BC, I was the only one doing so. Clearly, that is not optimal Mafia play. If I had been playing as scum, I would most likely have just went along with the Budja lynch. Regardless, I fail to see how you're getting a scumteam with that. Further, your attack on me for not voting fails to consider that I really prefer to think and hear before voting. To wit, I only cast 3 votes on D1 and have cast 5 to date.

As for my reasoning for that scumgroup, it made a bit more sense the more that I thought about it. Fuzzy attacks Deathsauce several times without good reason, almost as if he was attempting to make something up that was scummy about Deathsauce so that he could distance himself for future argument. Fuzzy also does not even mention Kikuchiyo once during the game.

In regards to your posts, there's more of the seemingly manufactured "liar" argument that you two had going on, along with several attacks that are really light, but overplayed. You also mention Kikuchiyo twice - once in a quote from me (Not really a mention, IMHO) and once in response to someone else calling her out on the lack of posting.

The fact that you two seem so similar in your post content is interesting to me and pushes me to believe that you're both likely scum.

[Netopalis]

What a substantial answer to our questions.

[Netopalis]

As of right now, yeah, but reread and give us your opinions. I'm not totally set on it.

Fuzzy: I was referring to the mountain of suspicion placed on you over the last 2 pages. Not questions, per se, I suppose, but I'd appreciate a few responses.

[Netopalis]

You forgot the claims. Or were you wanting to avoid discussing those right now?

[Netopalis]

*whistles while tapping his watch and mumbling*

[Netopalis]

1) I wasn't arguing that we should lynch him because he might not prove his role.

Chinaman

was arguing that, and I was refuting him.

2) I claimed as a response to a ridiculous assertion by Chinaman that there were no vanilla townies in this game. I claimed because it was one of his main reasons for voting Budja, a lynch that I only went with because it was deadline.

3) I didn't feel that I had the support to go after S_B at the time. Player activity was extremely low, and I didn't want to distract us with another bandwagon, especially since it might not end up in a lynch and we really couldn't afford a no lynch at the time.

4) So, you think I should have gone ahead and pushed for the lynch of claimed Masons? My point was that I felt that their claim was bogus, and that it would become apparent that we were on the wrong track if we didn't lynch scum in 2-3 days.

5) I don't feel particularly strong about the Fuzzy lynch. I wouldn't have supported it going into the day....But, given that my top suspect was cleared, I had to pick a new one. The choices then become:

Fuzzyman
Deathsauce
Faraday
Kikuchiyo (Now iamausername)

I was hoping that Kikuchiyo would get replaced, and I didn't feel that Deathsauce was a particularly strong lynch either. Faraday is definitely not a good lynch. Basically, all of my suspects have been cleared. That being said, unless someone's lying, 2 out of 4 of those players must be scum. Here's the list of players and why we can eliminate certain names.


Faraday
Snow_Bunny - Cleared by Imaginality's claim
DeathSauce
Ellibereth - Cleared by Mason claim
Fuzzyman
imaginality - Cleared by Imaginality's claim
Sanhora - Cleared by Lyman's claim
Netopalis - I know that I'm not scum
DrippingGoofball -Cleared by Mason claim
iamausername

So, yeah. The Fuzzyman lynch isn't what I would have chosen, but it's the lesser of 4 evils.

[Netopalis]

Read through the game and post your suspicions,

then

you can make that statement.

[Netopalis]

Well, I need more than that. You promised us a reread and suspicions. Kikuchiyo was under heavy suspicion for most of the game. You can't clear his replacement with a single sentence.

[Netopalis]

I knew that the stump probably wouldn't happen, but I had different reasoning. I felt that it would probably be roleblocked.

As for the masons dead thing, I was still suspecting the masons as a false claim, so I was hoping to point it out as a "Oh, that's VERY interesting..."

[Netopalis]

It was postulated yesterday that there was likely a scum roleblocker - it was one of Chinaman's main arguments for Lyman's lynch. I figured that he was scum and knew that there would be a roleblocker, and thus tried to set up a situation so that Lyman would be the next lynch.

[Netopalis]

Ahem. I had legitimate reason to, if you reread the game. Chinaman pops up with a Mason claim right before we drop the hammer on Budja, and then when we start to turn around to suspecting BC, he claims Mason too. Highly suspicious, in my book.

[Netopalis]

Do you always play like this? I feel like we're talking about elephants, but when you picture an elephant, you're picturing a giant stoplight that blares Rick Astley's "Never Gonna Give You Up" at all hours of the night and intentionally randomizes the next color so as to cause as many crashes as possible.

[Netopalis]

I was referring to DGB. I can link you to an early mislynch or an all-town D1 mislynch. You can take your pick.

[Netopalis]

Extremely fast mislynch: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12804

All town D1 mislynch: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12654

[Netopalis]

What a useful and substantial contribution.

[Netopalis]

Meh. Why not present a case and then let's talk about it?

[Netopalis]

See, the two of you can't build a lynch on your own. You need more than 2 votes. To get more than 2 votes, you must post a case. I think that not posting a case is honestly rather scummy...And I suspect that it's a reaction to either me attacking you two because I disputed the mason claim, or because I attacked your predecessors.

[Netopalis]

And you don't think it makes sense given the strange circumstances surrounding that claim?

[Netopalis]

ON WHAT GROUNDS?!?!?!?! BUDJA WAS TOWN!!!! DEMANDING A HAMMER ON A TOWNIE IS A TOWNTELL NOW?!?!?!??!?!?!?!?!!!!!

[Netopalis]

Farside.

Also, riddle me this: Why did Chinaman claim, then? What do masons have to gain from claiming right before a lynch when they're not being suspected?

[Netopalis]

So, by your logic, we should lynch you, since you weren't NKd. Your post implies that the fact that you weren't NKd should at least cast dispersion on your claim.

[Netopalis]

That is not an answer! Grah! I don't see the point in playing this if you're not going to respond to my posts. Screw you guys, I'm not posting until I see some content that I can respond to.

[Netopalis]

For the love of all that is good and holy, why? On what grounds are you doing this? NOBODY has provided a reason for ANY of this. If you can give me some logical reasons to work with, then I'm fine with it. I'm NOT going to sit around and let people accuse me without any reasoning, though.

[Netopalis]

My suspect list is based on the elimination of impossibilities. It's not my fault that the impossibilities have been people who were largely inactive.

[Netopalis]

I already claimed. You'd know that if you read the game closely. You're also not providing any reasons behind your actions.

[Netopalis]

Not really. I'm not doing it until there's a reason behind the votes against me. I'll be posting a lengthier diatribe later, but to put it simply, I feel that both you and Ellibereth are being arrogant, illogical, unfair and are advocating the worst possible gameplay possible. I will not, if I have any say in the matter whatsoever, ever play another game with either of you two.

[Netopalis]

Ahem. I'm not going to die without getting this off of my chest. This is the most inane, idiotic and inept Mafia play that I have ever seen. 2 players come into the game, state no reason for a lynch and the town just drops everything and goes along with it? It's utterly and entirely ridiculous! No, I will not claim! I refuse to partake in this mockery of the game of Mafia!

To the rest of you: Why on earth are you following these buffoons? They have not put forth a single shred of evidence to support their position! There is no reason to do this! This is utterly mad!

Ellibereth, I feel that I need to speak to you specifically as well. You're developing this reputation for this sort of play, egged on by Glork and your nomination for play in 108. Simply put, you're becoming cocky and arrogant. Check what you're doing. You've gotten lucky in the past, but you won't be so lucky this time. I'm town. Unless you just happen to be mafia, which is entirely possible, this is an extreme example of exactly why this play is wrong.

You're all fools. Let this be a lesson: Gut alone is not a proper basis for a lynch, and continued reliance on it will cause the town to lose even more dramatically.

Unvote, vote: Netopalis

Don't ever expect to see me play with either of you again.

[Netopalis]

Alright, fine. You want a claim? Here's a claim.

I'm Spiny Norman, the giant hedgehog who famously pestered the Dinsdale Brothers in the Monty Python episode "Face the Press" (Season 2, Episode 1). I win with the Mafia, the Town, the City, the County or the Frogs. I can kill as many players as I want per night, I've received a copy of both the setup and next year's People's Choice Award nominations. Once again, the choices are pretty crappy. At any rate, this setup has informed me that we're playing with a standard Essex game, counterbalanced by a pair of pinballs in West Leicestershire. I also have the ability to, at night, impersonate any player and gain the password to both their MS account and their bank account, and am authorized to make transactions from said accounts, so long as they are worth exactly $42.42. I am unlynchable, unnightkillable and slightly insane.

Anyone care to counterclaim?

[Netopalis]

Ellibereth: You posted in the bloody thread about it!

[Netopalis]

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &&start=50

Ok, so you did post, but it was about something else. My mistake.

[Netopalis]

If I get enough votes, I ascend to my mountain lair and build a death ray, which in turn disintegrates the planet Earth and sends out a shuttle which will carry me in my quest to find a new planet to inhabit and civilize with my army of clones.

[Netopalis]

No, I'm a double reverse Jester - I win twice if lynched, but only once if lynched on D1. If lynched on a Thursday, though, I win 3 times, so hurry it up.

[Netopalis]

Bwhahaha! My plan is working! You fell for my trap card!

[Netopalis]

Nice picture, Ellibereth. Very informative.

[Netopalis]

To be honest, in response to Imaginality's post, I still feel that it's entirely possible that DGB and Ellibereth are scum trying to play up the claims made by their predecessors. I still think that Snow_Bunny is scum. Faraday is town. Fuzzy is scum. Sanhora is probably town. Imaginality is town.

[Netopalis]

*shrugs* You guys just made a terrible mistake. I can't wait to see you all justify this tomorrow. This game is lost, as far as I'm concerned.

[Netopalis]

1) I was saying just about anything that I could to keep us from making an absolutely stupid lynch of a pro-town power role. It seemed that, at the time, most of the people were following Chinaman's way of thinking. It was idiotic. It was inane. But, to deal with the people who thought that, I had to play to their fears and concerns by telling them that I'd support the lynch if he couldn't confirm himself. Is it good play to do so? Of course not! But it's better to give him a single chance than to go ahead and lynch him because "he might not be able to confirm himself".

2) I was tired of him bringing it up. He had made the statement 3 times, and again, it seemed like he was being followed fairly closely. It was one of his main arguments in favor of a Budja lynch. Again, probably not optimal play, but given the situation I have to do what is necessary to get the town moving forward, and that means dealing with his ridiculous play rather than just ignoring it.

3) Yes, she had the same number of votes, but she

didn't

have the same number of people willing to lynch her. The people who were voting for her were the only ones willing to do so, while there were more that were willing to lynch Budja. It's also true that we wouldn't have gotten as much information from an S_B lynch due to the fact that she hadn't been considered for most of the day. We had pages and pages of reactions on people deciding whether to vote Budja or not, but we had very little to work with in regards to an S_B lynch.

4) I disagree here. Yes, I felt that the claim was scummy, and I pointed that out to preserve that fact. However, the claim also made it likelier that they weren't scum. I backed off because I wanted to see what would happen. It was incredibly frustrating, but I've had experience with Chinaman before, and I know that he's usually a pretty crappy town player. So, I decided that it would probably become evident in the future whether we were on the right track or not. What I didn't expect was for China and BC to be replaced within 24 hours of each other.

5) I could have gone for Deathsauce, Iamausername or Fuzzyman. Deathsauce and Fuzzyman were neutral reads. Iamausername replaced Kikuchiyo and solved most of the active lurking problems that Kikuchiyo had. Therefore, all 3 were neutral reads. Given that in a standard newbie game, there are likely 3 scum and given the logical elimination of all but 3 players, all of which could potentially be scum, it seemed to me to be pretty obvious that they were the scumteam. Therefore, since there was already a wagon on Fuzzyman, I decided that their arguments were probably right and I decided to hop on. Yes, if it had been on Deathsauce or Iamausername, I would have done the same. That's because I felt equally as strongly about all 3 of them for the above reasoning.

6) I posted pushing for the claimed mason to reveal his partner. I did that because I felt that he was scum and I didn't feel that his partner would back him up. In fact, I would contend that BC probably wouldn't have backed him up if they are indeed scum together if we hadn't switched the wagon over to BC.

[Netopalis]

Brilliant play there, Ellibereth. I hope you're scum, you'll feel a lot less foolish after all of this.

[Netopalis]

Why would I keep up the farce after the hammer?

Oh, right. The hammer was ineffective due to my unlynchability.

[Netopalis]

Uh...Ortolan? You there?

[Netopalis]

So why didn't they lynch? More importantly, why the heck did they lynch me? I'm sitll confused about that. Did I just dream this whole game up? Is it all a hallucination? A sadistic trick being played on me by my mind?