Mini 904 - Narnia: LWW Mafia (Game Over)

[manho]

/confirm

[manho]

where is the others?

[manho]

/confirm, as well as

vote: manho

Wait, I was replacing dana? That's surprising, I'm in another game with her.

OMGUS,

vote: bv310

[manho]

L-3 is miles from a lynch, L-1 is close. and a quick bandwagon is the most useful way to get out of RVS, at least in the games i'm in.

[manho]

L-3 is miles from a lynch, L-1 is close. and a quick bandwagon is the most useful way to get out of RVS, at least in the games i'm in.

[manho]

putting someone at L-3 in RVS is not a scum tell, as a quick bandwagon is a good way to get out of the RVS.

and halting, or preventing, a potential quick lynch is not a scum tell. why would scum be more likely to stop a quick lynch? it involve the complicated wifom that the scum is being hypocritical.

[manho]

Unvote; Vote:manho

You could at least respond to my comment. (Of which, Sib, you will notice is not a restatement of thought, still related to the game, and yet original!)

@PZ: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10078 - Lynch achieved on page 1.

it that "you" referring to me? if it is indeed me,

L-3 is miles from a lynch, L-1 is close. and a quick bandwagon is the most useful way to get out of RVS, at least in the games i'm in.

Yeah, I don't agree that a quick wagon is the best way to get out of RVS, but it is a way that works. You can generally get a look from how some people vote (wagon or not) and their reasoning as well.

what do you me to respond? you are agreeing with me, at least on that a quick wagon is a good way to get out of RVS, so i don't think i need to respond on it.

why would scum be more likely to stop a quick lynch?

Townie cred.

but who need a town credit? but some town player like to have town credit, so scum don't have a higher incentive to stop a quick lynch.

Also,

Unvote: Manho

Looks like RVS ended earlier than usual.

OMGUS,

unvote: bv310

@riceballtail, so why are you voting me?

[manho]

No, I'm not agreeing that a quickwagon is a good way to get out of RVS. It's a terrible way. Not good, and certainly not the best. (See example linked to PZ.)

so in how many games can you find 1 game that a day 1 quick lynch happen?

[manho]

and in how many non-newbie games can you find 1 game that a day 1 quick lynch happen (except for some games with strange mechanic).

[manho]

RBT: What was your question? I am having trouble discerning it.

In essence, what makes a quickwagon a good way to get out of RVS?

really don't know you are asking this... you need to be more specific next time if you want to ask something and expect an ansswer.

i know it from my experience. the RVSs end quickly in the games with a quickwagon.

[manho]

Not Voting (4)- kikuchiyo, bv310, manho, Grandi

Vote people.

i haven't found someone scummy enough to get a vote.

busy with the new semester, and will post more after i get through the first week.

[manho]

V/LA until 17/1

V/LA is noted.

[manho]

back from V/LA, but it's 3am now. will read the thread and post tomorrow morning.

[manho]

that starbuck-wagon is a shit. there is no reason behind the wagon. and dybeck is the scum behind that, asking for an early roleclaim, asking for an early roleclaim, asking for others to support the wagon, asking for others to vote starbuck to get her at L-1 for a claim, etc.

when i skim through the thread, i came across this:

Does anyone have way to keep this game from stalling that is neither a Starbuck claim nor a massclaim?

I think that the problem lies in the fact that I don't have a feel for any single player that strikes me as overwhelmingly pro-town. If anyone feels that they are that player, they should consider taking a lead here. This game is stalling badly and we're on a clock.

There must be a way - but I'm not coming up with it.

If we end up lynching Starbuck, it will be half for the reasons that everyone's stated so far, and half for the lack of a credible alternative option.

dybeck is definitely leading the town by that time, when he was pushing starbuck for a claim, so why ask for another to take the lead?

but the scummy point is the bolded last sentence that shift his responsibility for the starbuck (mis?)lynch to the whole town. it sounds like dybeck is expecting a town flip from starbuck and try to avoid the attention then.

vote: dybeck

[manho]

as for starbuck's claim, i'm not sure if it is real or not, but i don't see there is enough reason to get starbuck lynched.

[manho]

Manho's defense of Star is noted as well, mostly for being a chainsaw.

i'm not saying starbuck must be town, but that the wagon behind it is really bad. i'll have to agree with kiku that the starbuck lynch is very informative, and i'll support the lynch if deadline approach while dybeck is not near a lynch.

[manho]

after a second thought, dybeck can't be scum if starbuck flip scum. we need to lynch starbuck first.

[manho]

the case on starbuck is bad, and dybeck is the scum behind it. but as kiku said, we need starbuck's flip to get more information, like starbuck flipping town makes dybeck more scum, but starbuck flipping scum makes dybeck more town.

[manho]

the case on starbuck is bad, and dybeck is the scum behind it. but as kiku said, we need starbuck's flip to get more information, like starbuck flipping town makes dybeck more scum, but starbuck flipping scum makes dybeck more town.

Talk is cheap, Manho.

Either bus your scumbuddy or stop trying to improve your townie credentials by repeatedly saying things that you don't intend to follow up with a vote.

Glad you see things my way.

i think we still have time before the deadline and we can get more information from starbuck, like a case by her.

[manho]

@wolf, i don't see the reason behind starbuck's wagon strong enought, and think that was a scum-pushed wagon, so my initial suspicious go to dybeck. but then find that the starbuck lynch is very informative, and starbuck is still neutral in my scum list, so decide to lynch her. i didn't say we need starbuck lynch quickly, and i'm still waiting for a case from her before her lynch.

[manho]

it seems that starbuck don't care to give the town more information.

vote: starbuck

, L-1 if my count is right.

[manho]

Manho: suppose, for argument's sake, that this new wagon on you builds up steam. At what point will you claim?

L-1. and it is not a good time, 3 days before the deadline, to start another wagon just for a claim. you won't have enough time to put me at L-1 and back to the starbuck lynch.

[manho]

i think starbuck is town, but she is today's lynch.

[manho]

so everyone is starting new cases when deadline is just 3 days away? lynching the claimed vanilla townie is almost a standard procedure

there is no way we can do the following things: settling into another wagon, getting a claim from the lynchee, unvoting after the lynchee claim a powerrole, getting to another wagon and repeating the same procedure, and finally lynching someone, in 3 days.

so please get back to starbuck's lynch.

[manho]

so everyone is starting new cases when deadline is just 3 days away? lynching the claimed vanilla townie is almost a standard procedure

there is no way we can do the following things: settling into another wagon, getting a claim from the lynchee, unvoting after the lynchee claim a powerrole, getting to another wagon and repeating the same procedure, and finally lynching someone, in 3 days.

so please get back to starbuck's lynch.

if the new case seems better then the old one, who cares if it is three days away? Stop trying to convince people to vote you because of time restraints.

so where is the new case and how is it better than the old one?

We can do the following things:
Settle onto another wagon - we are doing so with you right now.

yes

Getting a claim from the lynchee - Not sure I understand this one but Starbuck did claim if thats what you mean.

getting another claim from the another lynchee, that's me currently, and you need two more votes on me to get a claim from me.

Unvoting after a lynchee claims power role - Depends on role and if people find it believable

sure, but you also need some time for everyone to have a chance to counter role claim.

Getting onto another wagon and going through same procedure - looks like that might be happening here.

yes, but this procedure need to repeat for sometime if you find each claim believable. and if you are finding the *insert the name starbuck claimed and i forgotten* claim believable, most claims are believable.

Finally lynching someone - How is this not going to happen?

you need 7 votes to get a lynch, and given that some player post only once a day, you probably can't get that in this little time.

Your reasons are horrible, you have no real case, and your posts are just scummy as hell.

i have given my case and reason why it is useless to try to get another wagon this late, especially after we spent so much time to pressure starbuck and get a vanilla claim. and why is my post scummy?

[manho]

RULES

Voting

B1) Votes must be bolded like this:

Vote: Playername

.
B2) You may

Unvote

, but it is not required before voting someone else.
B3) A lynch will occur when one player has the majority of votes for the day.
B4) Once a player has the majority of votes needed for a lynch, the lynch is final and further votes and unvotes will not count.
B5) You may

Vote: No lynch

. A no-lynch will occur when the majority of votes for the day are for no lynch.
B6) If a lynch is not reached by the time the deadline arrives, there will be no lynch.

if my understanding is right, we need 7 votes to lynch even at deadline.

You also didn't put any time in on pressuring me. You actually started off defending me and backpedaled rather quickly.

i'm saying the other people, such as dybeck-the-scum, that pressure you.

i think you are townie, but it is almost standard procedure to lynch claimed VT and there is no use starting another wagon now.

we really should end the day after starbuck gives her case. any more information given is a benefit to the scum, and that's why dybeck-the-scum are trying so hard to get claims from others.

[manho]

i'm Susan Pevensie.

[manho]

and by Susan Pevensie, it means a power role.

[manho]

at first, i think "susan means a power role" is a common knowledge. but after a second thought, i think i should make it clearer. i'm not going to claim my role, it had better be a secret.

[manho]

bv310 is a good lynch, dybeck is a better one and kiku is also worth to be watched.

but we don't have the time to start another lynch. starbuck is today's lynch. someone should hammer it before the deadline.

[manho]

i think there is at least one, maybe two, but unlikely three, scum in the set {dybeck, bv310, kiku}.

[manho]

and i didn't realize it. just think that the wagon is scum-pushed, and they are the likely the scum behind it.

dybeck is the most scummy one among the 3.

[manho]

Their undeniable link is what bothers me most and I hope town explores that more tomorrow when you all finally see that I am town.

you really think they are all scum?

[manho]

Susan, do you have anything to report?

unfortunately no.

starbuck and i are both wrong about dybeck and bv, and i think i should drop my case on kiku as it is similar to that on dybeck and bv.

will reread the thread soon to find the scum.

[manho]

I'm not going to push the issue.

manho: Were you roleblocked?

i don't think so.

[manho]

just loss in 2 games in the same day...

will catch up tomorrow, sorry.

[manho]

nearly forgotten that the starbuck-lynch is an information lynch, at least imo. so i go through my own iso to see what conclusion i had drawn.

"the lynch is scum-pushed, and the scum behind it is dybeck"
"if starbuck flips town, dybeck must be scum"
"there is at least one, maybe two, scum in the set {dybeck, bv, kiku}"

i think the vig-fishing by kiku was targetted at me. i would definately vig dybeck if i'm the vig. but i'm not. so why did dybeck die? i really don't see the reason for killing dybeck, as he is one of the most likely lynch today. i think he was vigged by someone else. but it's also possible that the scum want us to be confused about the kill.

[manho]

the above post makes a null tell against kiku.

more analysis later.

[manho]

Meh, I'm not seeing the RBT case. He's been opportunistic with his vote, sure, and he hasn't contributed too much, but there are plenty of people who play like that when town.

@kiku, is the above post the main reason for your vote on snail?

i don't think the RBT case also.

and i've read the first part of the game, in which starbuck was pushing to a claim. i'm sure it was pushed by scum, but dybeck was not the scum behind it. i've decided that i still think the lynch was scum-pushed, even dybeck flipped town. kiku and PZ are likely to be the scum behind it.

vote: kiku

[manho]

so kiku is using another crap case to get a mislynch...

if i'm not misunderstanding again, kiku's reason to vote snail is that "snail made a case on Narninian, but then shift the attention away. However, kiku think the original case a good one." i really don't think it is a good reason to vote someone, and i don't think anyone here is seeing this a main reason to vote. but then kiku accuse snail of "strawmanning" that snail avoid kiku's main "case". everyone reading the thread will know that the RBT things is the case rather than the Narninian things, so i think there is nothing wrong for snail to "strawmanning".

confirm vote: kiku

[manho]

so kiku is using another crap case to get a mislynch...

if i'm not misunderstanding again, kiku's reason to vote snail is that "snail made a case on Narninian, but then shift the attention away. However, kiku think the original case a good one." i really don't think it is a good reason to vote someone, and i don't think anyone here is seeing this a main reason to vote. but then kiku accuse snail of "strawmanning" that snail avoid kiku's main "case". everyone reading the thread will know that the RBT things is the case rather than the Narninian things, so i think there is nothing wrong for snail to "strawmanning".

No. The original case Snail made was

not

good. On first read I agreed it looked good. However, after doing an iso on Narn I disagree with the case. The strawmanning is not a huge issue for me, because I don't think I was as clear as I thought.

that's mean you are voting snail not for the narninian case, not for the RBT case, and not for the "strawmanning" case? so what's your reason behind the vote? can you give a clear, detailed and understandable case on snail?

as madcrawdad said, kiku was voting starbuck and pushing for her lynch not for her "L-3 is bad", but for her disappearence when she said that was due real life stuff.

as for the question why the town are voting 3 townie in Day 1, i think the 3 wagons are all pushed by scum, namely kiku and probably PZ.

[manho]

556 is a bit easy. Saying "one or both could be scum" could be a good way to set up a mislynch in the event we are both town.

the town-vs-town vibe is very different from the town-vs-scum vibe, so "one or both could be scum" is a correct saying, at least imo. and you shouldn't be worried about the case both of you are town, as you think snail is the scum. it is weird for a townie to vote someone and push for his lynch, but worry that he is town at the same time.

[manho]

i really don't have anything to add, as kiku ask me not to interrupt her investigation against snail, but i really think kiku is the scum starting to back-pedal when the snail-wagon start to fall.

[manho]

Snail, moar info plz.

no, we need to see if CC happen first. we can save the power claim if no CC come forward.

[manho]

UGH.

Why are all you clowns so freaking scummy? WHERE ARE ALL THE TOWNIES AT?

vote: RBT

will you give us the reason? and i really think we can save the alsan claim first before the CC.

[manho]

HH: We are nameclaiming. Case closed. I am the fucking high king of Narnia. Both Aslan and Susan have been outed in addittion to Peter. I need to know where we stand before we lynch today. A mislynch today most likely means lylo tomorrow. Mass nameclaim today prevents a counterclaim in lylo. Counterclaiming in lylo is scums best chance of winning as far as I can tell. If they want to sacrifice someone today then I am okay with that. They have no idea what our powers are. They already have three players to choose from. No reason for Edmund and Lucy not to come forward.

Why is a massclaim now "in the spirit of the game"?

I play to win. If I have to lower my standards I have no issue with doing so.

Mass Name claim. I command it.

i agree with this. counterclaiming in lylo is a disaster, as we need to decide who to believe and lynch the fake-claiming one. we don't have a second chance in lylo. and if mod has provided safe-claims, it will not lead to a sure loss for the scum. so please claim now.

unvote

my brother, unless the CC comes.

[manho]

where is PZ?

[manho]

@RBT, did your power investigate the name only or with the power?

[manho]

wolf is at L-1 now. he may be the best lynch for now, but i would like to have RBT fullclaiming first.

[manho]

so we have the complete list here:

riceballtail - Professor Kirke
pwnman - Mr. Tumnus
kikuchiyo - Peter
Hackerhuck - Father Christmas
Papa Zito - Lucy
Wolframnhart - Oreius
Narninian - Edmund
manho - Susan
Evilsnail - Aslan

let's get back to scumhunting. what? kiku is peter and PZ is lucy? then i need to find my third suspect.

...checking my iso for a third suspect...

nope, i don't have a third suspect, and i will go for the least likely claim then, and that's wolf. i'll hammer it if deadline come.

i don't want to outguess our mod, but i really think aslan is indeed a safeclaim.

[manho]

we need a way to verify our rolecop, and lucy's power is so obvious, i would like the rolecop to check aslan, as it is the less guess-able role, imo.

[manho]

I'm fine with being rolecopped, though I don't see how you can think Aslan a safe claim. I mean, I guess it'd be cool to do that, since Aslan is the most innocent figure in the story, but it doesn't really make sense.

Anyway, I agree with PZ and pwnman on RBT. RBT's role seems a pretty normal one.

i really can't stop thinking the mod come out and call himself aslan and safe the world if the scum win.

[manho]

we didn't hear from RBT for some time. i think we should wait for RBT first, before lynching anyone.

[manho]

i will hammer it if no one disagree. deadline is the time i go to bed, which is about 1 hour from now.

[manho]

vote: wolf

[manho]

yes we need RBT's result.

[manho]

i watched lucy, that's PZ, and can't get any result.

i think PZ was jailkeeped by kiku.

[manho]

my understanding of a jailkeeper is that it block every action targetted by and on the targetted player.

i have pm'ed the mod to clarify this.

[manho]

i watched wolf night 1, and in that pm of the result, it said i didn't see anyone targetting wolf. but the last pm said i can't determine if anyone targetted PZ night 2.

[manho]

my understanding of a jailkeeper is that it block every action targetted by and on the targetted player.

i have pm'ed the mod to clarify this.

no, the mod said the jailkeeper block and protect the targetted player only.

so, i was roleblocked.

[manho]

yes, we need a mass roleclaim. maybe start with our Father Christmas.

[manho]

posting to avoid a prod. still waiting for the claim by snail.

[manho]

PZ-Doc
HackerHuck-Commuter
Evilsnail-Self Riviver
RBT-Rolecop
Pwnman-VT
Narnian-VT
Manho-Watcher?

PZ is doc, as reflected above.

PZ never claimed.

[manho]

RBT is our rolecop, as you'll recall.

i was fishing for a slip there.

i believe PZ and RBT, so there are 3 scums among the other 4.

i think HH is the most likely scum, followed by Narninian, snail and pwnman in decreasing order of scumminess.

[manho]

i still think we should lynch HH first.

[manho]

i didn't trust my scum-hunting skill in this game since kiku and pz claimed Pevensies, so there is nothing other than the role name that i want to lynch HH.

pz is confirmed Pevensies. RBT has a really convincing claim. so i'll believe this 2 as town.

so that left snail (Aslan), HH (Father Christmas), pwnman (Mr. Tumnus) and Narinian (Edmund). Edmund will be the traitor if he is scum, so we can leave him alive for now. although i really think Aslan is a fake claim, but i don't see enough people having this idea to get him lynched. finally, Father Christmas is supposed to be the one who gave presents to the Pevensies, but he didn't have a role related to it. Therefore, HH should be today's lynch.

[manho]

Vote: Narninian

It doesn't make any sense for a VT to be told that three players are pro-town. With the masons, that could have given us five, maybe six, confirmed innocents Day 1. I don't buy it.

i don't think the mod will give the exact names (eg. manho, kiku and PZ) of the siblings, so that's not a big deal.

[manho]

vote: kairyuu

. he killed my sister.

[manho]

i waited for RBT's result first as i didn't get a positive result yesterday, but i get it now, so i didn't wait for RBT.

[manho]

lynch kairyuu please.

[manho]

wat