Mini 931: Supreme Court Mafia (Game Over post 682)

[Yosarian2]

Hey, everyone. Ah, green crayons is in this game, awesome, haven't played with you in a while.

[Yosarian2]

1) How much experience do you have playing Mafia?

A bit.

2) How would you describe your playstyle?

Mixed, I guess.

3) What do you value the most in making decisions in Mafia?

I consider everything. It depends.

4) Do you expect the Spanish Inquisition?

NO ONE EXPECTS THE MONTY PYTHON REFERENCE

5) Do you prefer playing as mafia or as town?

Meh. Varies.

6) How many games are you playing in at the moment?

Um...3 at the moment, a few more starting soon

7) What do you consider to be your greatest strength as town? As mafia?

Winning? Getting vigged as town? Lol.

I donno, depends. I'm good at setup analysis and all that. I'm sometimes really good at scumhunting and sometimes just average; seems to come in streaks. I am usually good at pressuring someone, and good at engaging in debates that give me a lot of information about the other person. As scum...I'm pretty good at not getting lynched (better then I am at that as town, lately) and pretty good at predicting what people are going to do and setting up good endgames; not so great at finding town power roles.

[Yosarian2]

Jack's copying and pasting isn't suspicious. It's actually quite clever IMO.

Something else I am going to do this game, just a heads up: I will not be explaining any of my votes. The person needs to figure out what is making them suspicious and provide a defense. If I tell them what is suspicious about them then their defense can be created easier.

Um

That's a terrible idea. It makes it harder to read you, which is bad if you're town, and makes it harder for you to read anyone else, since most people will just ignore your votes or else ask "why" and then ignore your votes when you refuse to answer, and it'll mean that even if yu do figure out who the scum are no one else will pay attention to you.

On a side note, I'm goign to get pman and pwnman confused all game, I see it now.

[Yosarian2]

keyboard isn't working will post later

[Yosarian2]

Not a problem, Bub. Anything to get him to finally answer.

Um...I'm pretty sure he did answer your question, Neto, and he did so before bub made that post.

[Yosarian2]

This wagon on Jack is pretty lame here.

Likely scum: Darklight, pwnman.

Obvtown: Green Crayons

Likely town: Neto

[Yosarian2]

Not a problem, Bub. Anything to get him to finally answer.

Um...I'm pretty sure he did answer your question, Neto, and he did so before bub made that post.

I meant the question about the CIA Agent/Secret Service Agent, which he said he would refuse to answer.

He said that at first, Neto, but then he did answer you, in some detail, and he did so before you made that post. He said that he knew there was exactally one secret service agent, because it said so in the opening post, and he quoted the line in the mod's post where the mod said that. He also said that he said "CIA" instead of "secret service agent" because he knew it was wrong; he didn't want to be accused of making a scum slip, and the real SK (assuming there is one) might react differently to that.

You can disagree with his reasoning if you want, you can even find the second reason scummy (setting up a pre-emptive defense to an accusation that hadn't even been made yet could arguably be considered scummy) but I don't get why you kept saying he "didn't answer the question"

[Yosarian2]

Yos: He spent the first 7 posts after we asked him intentionally and obviously avoiding making any sort of answer.

Well, yes. He directly and openly refused to answer where he got that from. He didn't dodge the question, he just refused to answer. Which actually makes perfect sense, if he was trying to smoke out the SK. I don't really see it as a likely scum move.

He only claimed that discrepancy after I pointed it out. He then didn't give a solid reason as to why he made that statement if he knew it was false. There were a number of different questions, and throughout the day, it has been Jack's mantra that he won't answer anything.

Um, no, Neto.

He answered that question, he was quite about exactly why he said CIA when he knew the setup actually described a secret service agent.

That first post was my version of the conversation starter. The fact that there was no CIA agent in the setup gave me an "out" once the starter had run it's course. Proof that it wasn't a scumslip, basically. That it was just made up.

You may or may not like the answer he gave, but I don't get why you keep acting like he never answered your question.

[Yosarian2]

I add, that I find it even more troubling you can declare him Obivious town when he has only made 10 posts!

Care to explain?

(shrug) Gut, mostly. He's not joining the easy but probably bad Jack wagon, he's making sense, and I think he's generally trying to help the town.

Why are you asking about this, Jason? Do you suspect GC is scum, do you disagree with my feeling about him here, or is there something else?

[Yosarian2]

I'm glad you posted content there, Darox; I was actually going to start getting on your for lurking if you hadn't posted content by today, and I find that post really interesting. I especally like his case against Bub, and want to hear a response from Bub about it.

[Yosarian2]

Guys, can't you see that Jack has practically

claimed

SK? IMHO it's a good bet.

Um, no. No, he didn't, at all.

[Yosarian2]

@DLA: why is Jack scum? In particular, which of Jack's posts benefit scumJack more than townJack?

NO NO NO NO NO!!!!
He's not SCUM! He's 3rd party SERIAL KILLER!!!

The CIA agent is the serial killer obviously, but who are the mafia?

Here, he says he has knowledge of a CIA agent in the game, who is "obviously" a SK.

So, going on, he refers to:

(...) but the only people in the room that are not justices are the two attorneys and the secret service agent.

And points to the SS agent being his SK.

So, here's my read:

Jack got a pm like this:

"You are a serial killer. Your role name is a CIA agent."

He goes on to accidentally post this in-topic.

He realizes his mistake, and keeps it "undisclosed" for a while, and then finds an excuse in the mod's post.

Understandable?

That makes no sense as a theory.

No one has ever accidentally said "the CIA agent is the serial killer", in the history of ever. Also, there is no CIA agent in the setup according to the mod. We don't even have any evidence that there is a SK, and your whole theory seem vastly less likely then Jack's explanation.

[Yosarian2]

I'm fairly confident in bub as scum. Was waiting around to see if anyone else picked up on it. I'm the only one voting him...

Yeah, he totally is. Let's do this.

Vote:Bub Bidderskins

[Yosarian2]

LYNCH JACK HE'S SERIAL KILLER!

Isn't it OBVIOUS?

No, it's really not. Your whole accusation seems to ride on the assumption Jack is a complete idiot, which he's clearly not. I'm not ruling out the possibility he tried some kind of overly elaborate WIFOM gambit here, but it's not that likely.

Anyway, Bub is clearly scum.

[Yosarian2]

If you don't know what you think of Jack, how do you have an opinion of someone who voted for something you have no opinion about? This looks like posturing to make a "good" vote.

I'm not sure what the problem is here. Pwnman's vote didn't look natural or like he was really suspicious of Jack's play. I don't need an opinion of the player being voted to see something fishy about the way a vote is placed.

I find it hard to think that you can come up with a meaningful opinion about someone's vote when you don't have a feeling about the player they're voting for. Of course, you're original assertion (that you "[didn't] like the way Pwnman and jason jumped on the Jack wagon. Pwnman moreso.") is far from meaningful. In fact, it's incredibly vague (which further underscores my posturing suspicion). Why did you not like pwnman's and jason's votes on Jack (now that you're clarifying your suspicion: what made it look unnatural)? Why pwnman's more so than jason's?

vote: Bub

. I'm happy with this vote after reading the back and forths.

Green Crayons is still very obv town here.

[Yosarian2]

Also, why does Yos keep buddying up with me? At first I was flattered that he thinks I'm obvtown. Now I'm with jason and am suspicious.

Not sure why people always assume "buddying" whenever someone gets a town read on someone else; has that ever actually worked as a scum gambit?

Anyway, I'm still pretty sure Bubs is scum here. And as far as "chance to defend yourself/claim/give last words" go, he's really running out of time here.

[Yosarian2]

Not sure why people always assume "buddying" whenever someone gets a town read on someone else; has that ever actually worked as a scum gambit?

My main issue is the fact that you

keep

saying that I'm obvtown even though there's no real change in anyone's attitude towards me. Basically, it was pointless cheerleading that makes me feel good about myself... which is suspicious. My ego is large enough as it already is.

Nothing to do with "your ego", heh. It was just that post looked really pro-town to me. (shrug) When I see something, I comment on it.

Whether or not it works, surely you're not questioning the fact that scum attempt to buddy up with town.

I actually can't think of an example of where a scum said "x is obviously pro-town here" in order to buddy up with x. I'm not going to say that it never happens, but buddying is generally a lot more subtle and manipulative then that.

[Yosarian2]

I would like to hear more from Dry-fit today.

I've also got kind of a bad gut feeling about Jason. Nothing I can really explain right now, but some of his posts feel off to me.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian:

light to moderate scum read. Scum suspicions and town suspicions are both not backed up at all, possible buddying, jumps on bud wagon with no reasoning. A few posts about the posing habits of others, possibly trying to look town with little effort.

No reasoning? I was quite clear about my suspicious of Bud all day. Granted, Darox explained what I was thinking before I did, and I encouraged him because I liked that he was becoming more active, but that hardly means that I had "no reasoning" for suspecting Bud. I'm pretty stunned Bud flipped town; I thought he was obv scum.

And that's hardly the only thing I commented on, either. It's simply false that my "town reads were not backed up at all". Now, my Jason read is gut; are you actually trying to claim here that having a gut read on soemone is a scum tell?

[Yosarian2]

I'm not sure what the problem is here. Pwnman's vote didn't look natural or like he was really suspicious of Jack's play. I don't need an opinion of the player being voted to see something fishy about the way a vote is placed.

I find it hard to think that you can come up with a meaningful opinion about someone's vote when you don't have a feeling about the player they're voting for. Of course, you're original assertion (that you "[didn't] like the way Pwnman and jason jumped on the Jack wagon. Pwnman moreso.") is far from meaningful. In fact, it's incredibly vague (which further underscores my posturing suspicion). Why did you not like pwnman's and jason's votes on Jack (now that you're clarifying your suspicion: what made it look unnatural)? Why pwnman's more so than jason's?



vote: Bub. I'm happy with this vote after reading the back and forths.

Green Crayons is still very obv town here.

What was the point of this post? Did anyone suspect Green Crayons for it, or did you see something to make you think they would? Did his post make him look more town? I don't know what you were going for.

Um, the point of the post was that green crayons was obv town. Are you disagreeing with me that he looked very pro-town in that post? Or are you one of those people who thinks that no one should ever share their town reads? I don't agree with that philosaphy, personally.

[Yosarian2]

I don't see what about that post made him look more town.

(shrug) He said exactly what I was thinking, both about Dry-Fit and about Bud. I was quite confident that that specific way of thinking would have been very unlikely to come from scum.

[Yosarian2]

DLA, give reasoning for calling Jack SK, and give us a rundown of everyone in the game, please.

(nods)

I'm sure people are going to jump all over me for saying this, but Jack is obv town here, and Dark Lights actions in response to him are looking odder and odder.

[Yosarian2]

Oh, for the love of all that is good and holy....

Jack, please, please, please try to change your playstyle. I'm not sure whether he's scum or not, but I'd almost support a policy lynch at this point. Note the almost, but the point is there.

A policy lynch? Based on what policy, exactly?

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian: Obfuscation, deliberately failing to contribute and general anti-town behavior.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong on all 3 counts.

[Yosarian2]

Obfuscation: Continuing to claim that he has information and we're on a need-to-know basis; the D1 FBI/Secret Service stuff

You really didn't realize that that was a joke?

[Yosarian2]

joke or not, the fact he is still pulling it today is redicilious and damn right scummy. You should never joke about having information that could be useful to the town and then say 'need to know basis' regardless of what day it is.

He said, as an obvious joke "Kill:Darklight". You asked him "What does that achieve". He continued with "You're on a need to know basis", which was obviously another joke.

(shrug) Either that, or he was actually trying to scare darklight into thinking he got daykilled in order to get a response from him.

Either way, what he did wasn't at all scummy or anti-town, and I don't get your or Neto's reaction to it at all.

[Yosarian2]

The facty he coninues to allude to the fact he has information that could be useful but keeps telling the town we 'are need to know'

No, he dosn't.

Very well. I posted "kill:DLA" as a way of saying "you're annoying". Didn't care to explain that.

He made quite clear that that it wasn't a serious comment. I don't know why you're claiming that he "continues to allude to the fact that he has information" or whatever when that's obviously not the case.

[Yosarian2]

My problems with Jack are the posts in which he simply says "Camn is scum" without any backing and the one in which he says that we're on a "need to know basis". Yes, it's obvious the kill was a joke.

If you knew the kill was a joke, then when he was asked about it and responded "you're on a need to know basis" or whatever, wasn't it obvious that was also a joke? I don't understand.

[Yosarian2]

Way to defend your scum buddy

Vote:Jason

[Yosarian2]

Way to defend your scum buddy

Vote:Jason

What reasons though? I have already listed both as my scum suspects many times, so this is not a random comment.

Let's say as this conversation has gone on, I've had less and less confidence that your attacks on Jack are being made in good faith. When Darox pointed out how silly you're being, and you tried to shut him up by accusing him of being "Jack's scum buddy", that was the last straw.

[Yosarian2]

Ah, well. Good game, everyone.

Yeah, I was breadcrumbing my innocent results on GC and Jack, I'm glad people noticed that. I was hoping I was going to live to day 3, get one more confirmed innoent, and then claim, and then with me and hopefully two living confirmed innocents, I thought the town might still have a chance. Sadly, it wasn't going to happen.

To the scum: did you notice my breadcrumbs? Was that why you killed me?