Mini 938: Weeds Mafia (GAME OVER)

[Leech]

/confirm

[Leech]

Vote: Thatguy

for calling me "that guy" which is obv scum trying to confuse the town.

[Leech]

What is your ideal role? Would you rather be town or scum? Explain why.

I prefer playing scum. If you read over the games in my Wiki, I'm normally perceived as being town, even when I am actually scum. I feel it takes more skill to blend in and redirect suspicion than it does to scumhunt.

If you were at L-1 and you were a simple townie, would you claim a PR to try to save your own ass and catch actual scum instead of you? (I can go into much more detail about this but I will leave it at this for now.)

No. This could easily result in an actual power role outing themselves to justify your hammer. If someone did that as town, then they definitely fit the bill of Village Idiot.

Are you good at playing scum or not? Explain why.

Yes, I play the same way every game town or scum. So, considering the general feeling in my games is that I'm town, I enjoy deceiving.

Which is a better tell, lurking or over-defensiveness? Explain why.

Lurking is a null tell, and over-defensiveness doesn't exist. Different people react in different ways, just because they're passionate about defending themselves doesn't mean it's a scummy response. Over-defensiveness that is out of character for that player a tell, but over-defensiveness in general is not.

How would you trap a possible scum target? (meaning you troll them or something of that sort)

I don't? I let the scum dig their own holes.

If you thought Player X was scum would you just vote them and give reasons from their previous statements, or would you ask a few questions before placing a vote? Explain why.

If I thought the player was scum, I'd vote. If I thought they were scummy, I'd dig a little deeper.

Do you believe it is a good idea to policy lynch someone in 1 game because of something that happened in another? (lol) Explain why.

Only if their actions in that one game outed them as scum.

What do you think about policy lynching? Explain why.

Depends on the policy. I do lynch all liars, millers, and jesters.

What do you think about people who go V/LA a lot during a game? Are they scummy for it or not? Explain why.

People have lives and they get busy. It's null.

What do you think about Lynch All Liars? Explain why.

If someone's in the habit of lying, it's best to lynch them. Not only are they a distraction to the town, but you actually find out the truth. You learn from confirmed truths moreso than confirmed lies.

Who would you kill right now if you had the chance to kill someone? (ie day killing vigilante) Explain why.

No one.

[Leech]

This game is almost painful to read.

Ythan, do you really feel that pretty much calling everyone "obv scum" is actually going to accomplish anything other than an extended RVS? You claim to hate the pointlessness of it, yet you seem to be doing the most with it.

[Leech]

Point out where he [Ythan] does this.
Hint: You can not.

You're right, I can't. This is the problem that arises from reading an ISO when people don't quote with names, sometimes it is misleading. All three times he used the phrase he was talking about the same person, due to lack of quotes and names, it appeared it was talking to more than one person.

@Leech: Do you think Ythan is scummy for what he is doing? It feels as if you are waiting to see if a wagon takes off on Ythan before placing a vote. That way you can point back and say "but I found him scummy here".

No, if I found him scummy I would have voted for him. You should check my wiki and read up on my other games. I almost never vote for someone until I have a good enough reason to do so. In the RVS I always toss out a vote and leave it there until I have a good reason to change it.

I don't think he's scummy due to his posting style actually being a good form of scumhunting. I've seen people use similar styles and find scum rather successfully at it. I thought I saw a contradiction reading his ISO, but I was wrong.

As far as who's coming off as scummy? No one, really. The game's just started and nothing is really standing out to me at the moment.

[Leech]

There's absolutely nothing happening in this game. Normally I'm much more active than this, but there's nothing really to discuss. So in the spirit of getting things going, let's start a wagon on the most vocal player:

Unvote, Vote: Ythan

I choose the most vocal player, because I know he'll respond and get discussion going. Hopefully more than just one-liner 'you're an idiot' type of posting though.

[Leech]

"Let's wagon the most vocal player!"

"Why?"

"So he can be.... uh... more vocal?"

"lolwut"

Unvote:

Vote: Leech

That wasn't my reason...misrep much? If you read my post I clearly stated that I voted for the "most vocal" in hopes that he'd add more than just a ton of one-liner posts that aren't really adding. Quantity is not better than quality. He has a high quantity of posts that don't amount to much. Then again no one, myself included, does. However, I feel that if Ythan starts contributing more content, rather than small content-less posts, than discussion will follow. Failing that people will jump on me, which has already started, resulting in discussion. Either result is beneficial.

Although Leech making a 3 person wagon on the most active person to promote activity is kind of insane.

Well, we had to do something. I'd rather have people start questioning me and my motives, than have the RVS continue. No one was taking any sort of initiative, so I did.

[Leech]

Konowa, if you want a Grid or Leech lynch you should vote Leech.

Why? This is a prime example of what I was talking about before. You make broad statements like that without listing any actual reason.

@Leech: Bolded is very clearly a false statement. The vote on Ythan under the "but, nothing is going on" statement really looks like you are trying to fit into the category of town taking an active stance. I am not buying it.

So, let me get this straight. You find it more likely that I'd jump in there and say: "Nothing's going on, so I'm going to start discussion even if it puts the focus on me." if I were scum?

How is this a good thing if you're town? If you're town, you getting people to attack you for being genuinely scummy can't be good. Any information you get from it will look like OMGUS, and if you're genuinely seen as scummy, then it will only cause a re-think in the event of your mis-lynch.

I don't see how my vote, or the reason for it is scummy. Why don't you explain to me how casting a 3rd vote on someone, when it takes 7 to lynch, in the spirit of bringing life to this game is scummy. If you don't believe that's what I was doing, why don't you tell me what other possibility there is?

[Leech]

No you actually cut the reason out. It was in the NEXT SENTENCE OF THE POST.

No, you stated that Grid seems anti-town even when he's town. You did not give a single reason why I'd be a better lynch. Just because someone always appears scummy, doesn't mean I'm a better lynch. Someone having a habit of looking like scum is not a reason to vote for someone else.

@Leech: What I am saying, is that I am not seeing any scum-hunting from you. All I am seeing is someone trying to appear active.
Take a guess at who is more likely to play like this.

I was trying to start discussion, which would lead to scumhunting. Thankfully there's a little more discussion going on now than there was, but we still don't have much all to talk about. I don't know why it's so hard for me to "get into" this game. If you read my past games, you'll see that the RVS' never lasted long, so my scumhunting began sooner. It's hard to scumhunt when you're struggling to even add anything to the conversation, like I am.

Do you think not having a real read on players in the game, at this point, is a scumtell? I don't ask this out of defense, but curiosity.

Can you address my question regarding Fate?

For the reasons I've stated, I felt my vote made more sense on Ythan. Applying a vote that would undoubtedly be discredited as an OMGUS, would only allow him to twist things further, if that was his intention. It might not have been an intentional misrep, rather than getting lost in communication anyway. So, I'm still not completely certain on whether or not he intended to take my reasoning out of context. It seems that way, but I'm not certain enough.

Good question... I really don't know what I was thinking at the time

This is the first thing that really concerns me in this thread. I admit I haven't posted much, but I never lose track of what I was thinking at the time of a post. In every game I've played in, I've never had a hard time remembering why I said something that I had said. It's one thing if you change your mind on someone, but to forget why you had a read on someone? I'm not so sure.

[Leech]

There's disagreeing with an argument and then there's pretending that it doesn't exist. You did the latter.

It wasn't relevant. It may have been the next sentence but "Vote Leech" and "McGriddle always looks anti-town" are two entirely different subjects. One has nothing to do with the other.

The way he attempts to defend himself just seems like a clever ploy for scum. So right now, personally, he's my best bet.

What about the way I defend myself seems like a "clever scum ploy" exactly?

@Sando: How can you realistically claim that Ythan's been tunneling when he's been actively responding to, and commenting on everyone?

[Leech]

Yeah, he's scum all right. Not voting me for fear of it being called OMGUS, and then backpedaling on calling it a misrep.

Where have I backpedaled? It was a misrep of my reasoning. I'm unsure of whether or not it was an

intentional

misrep, or if you just simply misunderstood. If you were intentionally misrepping me then I am pretty sure that had I voted for you that you'd have dismissed everything as an OMGUS, which isn't productive at all.

[Leech]

Still think that Leech's retreat to WIFOM is contrived.

Ok, then what exactly am I supposed to say then? I specified in my post why I voted for Ythan. Fate completely takes what I say out of context, so I further explain my actions. Then players start just saying things that pretty much boil down to "I think you did it for this" or "It seems like you're just trying to do this". Those responses really can't be answered in a non-WIFOM fashion.

In fact, I'll quote you:

Really not liking Leech's WIFOM reasoning for being town. It seems like the whole thing was designed to let him WIFOM defend himself.

"He did this, so he could respond with this, which he could use to cover up his initial act" is a WIFOM in itself. How do I not respond with WIFOM when your case is built on it? The fact of the matter is, I clearly stated my reasoning. Whether or not you agree with it is up to you. I decided to make a move and told you why. I'm not sure what else there is to say. If you don't want a WIFOM response, don't bring it to me in the first place.

Now, Fate, his most recent post calling for a policy lynch really seals it for me. I think he is the scummiest in his actions. I am starting to believe that my initial thought was right and he was intentionally misrepping my post. He's apparently willing to risk lynching town just so there is less of an exchange between Ythan and Sando. That's not a pro-town state of mind.

Unvote, Vote: Fate

[Leech]

You say here that you wanted me to make posts with more content, but you yourself admit that nobody else is posting much content either. So, not a watertight explanation.

I understand that it wasn't a watertight explanation. However you are known for posting a lot in games and eventually offering up a lot of content. Looking over the last several posts from you, I think that proves my point. I figured that you could easily get this game on track.

Very plain WIFOM.

Yes, that was a WIFOM defense. However, the quote I was referring to was one where the player I was responding to was claiming I'd be more likely to do that as scum. It was a response to a WIFOM accusation in the first place. It's hard to break the concentric circles of wifom once it's been presented to you.

You're soft-selling/distancing from a case and also saying that you think the "post more content" vote you had placed on me was somehow still better left there than moved to someone from whom you saw questionable content.

I wasn't really distancing from a case, I was unsure of whether or not my suspicions were accurate or if I was simply chasing ghosts. I felt at the time that the vote on you served a greater purpose. Now, looking back, I realize that my play was actually rather stupid. I'll be the first to admit that my original idea wasn't thoroughly thought out, and I should have thought about what I was doing more before I did it. It made sense at the time, but not so much looking back.

Do you think this is scummy or did you just want to make it clear that you found it odd?

I wanted to point it out because I found it odd. I don't see why someone would lose track of what they were thinking. I've made some bad decisions in this game, and I'll be the first to admit that I'm playing very badly, but I can at least remember why I made the moves I've made.

Do you still think this?

I do, actually. I find that a lot of "jokes" in games can be tools to find out who would actually be onboard for such an event to occur. It's far too easy to just jump in later and say "I was only half-kidding" I actually condone this or just say "Oh, it was a joke" if it doesn't pan out.

[Leech]

I don't think this is true. Where did you hear this?

I've read a lot of games, and do browse the GD quite a bit. A lot of people talk about how much you post in games. After reading a few in your wiki, most notable your replacement into 889, you seemed to post a lot more content in your posts.

This is another explanation that could be true but is still not as good as if the incident had never occurred. Know what I mean?

Yes I do, hence my acknowledgment that I am playing a particularly bad game.

[Leech]

Look, so I just tell you what comes to mind. If you want to dissect every little thing I say, and say it's scummy, so be it. I've obviously gone way over my head in playing in this game and can't so much as explain my reasoning by dissecting every little sentence to explain my reasoning to you guys, so I guess I'm just not as experienced and wouldn't mind if you voted me out now.

It's not a dissection of "every little sentence" from what I see. In fact, this seemed to start from a single sentence that you've yet to provide any sort of backing for:

So to answer your question, I'm thinking Leech vote leech . The way he attempts to defend himself just seems like a clever ploy for scum. So right now, personally, he's my best bet.

What about Leech's defense of himself seems like a ploy? Provide some detail. At first blush this looks like opportunistic voting by someone looking to find a wagon and hop on. Your vote back at ISO 9 looks more and more like this also.

Look, it's day one, I've got nothing more to go on then my gut instinct, and they way they read, I find it extremely difficult to try and dissect every single sentence on day one, because there's not much behind it that I can see. You can take my words they way you perceive them.

If that seems scummy to you, then vote me for it. Day two and beyond, it gets a helluva lot easier for me, but day one kills me, and I don't have the time to dissect every thing and post it in a neat fashion for you. Leech is my gut instinct, if you don't like it, don't agree with me.

So, brief recap:
1. You say that my play looks like a scum ploy.
2. Magna asks how it looks that way.
3. You say that its just gut and also its day one and its difficult to dissect every little thing.

After that, it's more reiterating the same exact point about not being able to dissect small details. Who was asking you to? You made a statement, and someone asked for more information about it. I'm not sure what's causing this explosion of being a crappy day 1 player, when you were just being asked why you felt a certain way.

I really don't see the point in your "I wouldn't mind if you voted me out" statement either. That's not really a good defense. If you are town, then we shouldn't lynch you just so we know you were telling the truth. There's nothing productive about that approach, and will only hurt us in the end.

[Leech]

I thought Leech was scummy because things he said seemed to suggest that everyone is twisting your words around.

I said one person misrepped me. That's not everyone.

It's fucking page 11, what would you like?

A level-headed player that doesn't freak out and go on a tangent every time you're simply questioned? That sounds like something I'd like.

I'm just saying I'm apparently not experienced enough for day one in a mini game. Vote me out. End of day one.

Or, you could actually try to play this game and not screw over everyone else in it? Let's face it, if you're town what you're doing is hurting every other town player in the game. If you're scum, you're fucking your team by begging to be lynched. If you want out that bad, why don't you seek replacement instead of screwing over whatever side you're actually playing for?

[Leech]

@Ythan: To me it looked more like sarcasm mixed with frustration.

Left alone, this is a distraction to the town. I am in favor of a claim because
a) If it is believable, we can assume that he is a frustrated\inexperienced townie and use the lynch on another player
b) If not, we lynch him

I'm not in favor of a claim due to the fact that it really doesn't benefit us in any way. I'll use your own reasons why.

a) If he's a PR he'll most likely get night-killed. If he's not, it's narrowing down the PR pool for the scum.

b) Depending on what he claims will determine the actions of the scum in this game. If he claims PR, the scum will probably either say it's not believable and push a lynch, or claim to believe it to kill him off in the night.

He's not L-1 so I do not support a claim. Claiming right now would only benefit the scum.

[Leech]

@Leech: If you still believe that statement, regarding Fate, why have you not followed up on your vote of Fate?

What do you mean? I did vote for him. In fact, that is where my vote is currently sitting. I still think he is the best bet, after all that has happened. He's not really scum hunting, at all. Just look at his plays:

Ding ding ding?

We have a winner?

His immediate response to Thatguy's outburst.

Defeatist attitude. Leaning on null-tell for it.

At the time it was happening it clearly appears that he was for lynching Thatguy. Now that others have spoken against it, his attitude is that it's a null-tell. Fate words a lot of his posts in the manner that it looks like he could be kidding, or not. Its an advantageous position to be in if you're scum due to being able to brush off your ideas if they don't take off, and easily back them if they do.

@Ythan: Is your comment about Sando's "scummy, fluffy no-content" play style in reference to how he's responding to you, or everyone?

[Leech]

That's why your posts are kind of misleading, then. If you look at how he's replying to other people, he is adding content and asking meaningful questions. Your post seems, rather, ill-timed after his recent post against Ooba.

This quote, in particular, looks like actual content to me:

Ooba has been obviously active lurking, his first real post contains a vote on me for being 'opportunistic' in my vote on Thatguy, based purely off the order of voting. His second real post (4th in total at this point) jumps onto the Thatguy wagon because his play is apparently similar to someone in a previous game. No real reasoning on how it is similar, it just is apparently. Added to the fact that he opportunistically jumps onto the biggest BW, something he accuses me of doing. He accuses me of being ready to back away from my vote because I've stated that I'd lynch other people, yet himself names another person he's willing to lynch.

I agree with many of the points he made here. So, in my eyes, you are brushing off everything he's saying, solely due to how he's posting against you. I think your interaction with Sando is making you disregard the valid points he's making when it is relating to other people. If I'm wrong, would you mind telling me why you either agree or disagree with his case on Ooba?

[Leech]

Havingfitz? Who the hell is this? POST PLEASE.

I second that.

[Leech]

@Leech, who else apart from Fate do you think is scummy?

I find you scummy for your attempt to force an early claim. That does not help the town in any way.

Horrordude still worries me a bit from his admission that he didn't remember why he posted something. When questioned his only rebuttal was "I can't remember what I was thinking when I made that post." That, to me, is a very strange situation. You should remember why you posted something. I know why I've made all my posts in this and my other games, as I never post without a reason. If he can forget his reasoning, then one has to question the validity of that reason in the first place. I'm not sure how "scummy" that is, but it's very unusual to me. Sadly he hasn't really posted enough for me to form any solid conclusion.

Konowa, seems to be looking for any reason to direct suspicion onto me. His persistence at times don't make sense. He's accused me of resorting to WIFOM, when his entire case was WIFOM in the first place. If you read his accusations against me, you can easily apply the same exact logic he's using against me, against his case against me. Also, there's this recent post:

Leech's defense of Sando in 318 has me all sorts of twitching. I went back and read Leech and Sando's exchange, and it definitely reads as all bark and no bite (read as fluff). Now, however, that Sando is under a little heat Leech is trying to clean up his [Sando] mess.

Maybe you should go back and read it again. I have, all of, one post in dedicated to Sando. He questioned me a few times, and I answered. I've had much longer exchanges with you, Fate, and Ythan. Please tell me about this "Sando mess" you're describing. As far as I'm aware, it doesn't exist.

This "Sando Mess" he's talking about is a completely fabricated creation of his own mind. I can't tell if he actually believes what he's posting, or if he's just trying to take advantage of my play earlier, which I have stated on more than one occasion was a stupid move.

One last thing to note about this quote, is that I never even defended Sando. I was questioning Ythan. Ythan made a statement that I was asking for clarification on. I happened to agree with Sando's comment on Ooba, so I was questioning Ythan's statement that Sando isn't adding content. That wasn't a defense of Sando, but a minor investigation of Ythan. I really don't like how so much of Ythan's post consist of personal attacks. It makes it hard to determine where he's just being an asshole, or where he's actually stating something useful to the game.

@Leech: What I mean by follow up, is that you are not doing anything with your vote other than saying "Look here". You say that you think Fate is scum, but you are not attempting to get him lynched. Why is that?

Quote where I said that I think he is scum. I have not stated that about a single player in this game, so I think that quote's going to be hard to find. I have made comments about how certain plays have been the scummiest at the time, but that's it. Maybe you should take into consideration that I'm looking at everyone in this game, not just a single person. When I'm ready to push for a lynch on someone, I will. Fate has been scummy in this game, but so have other people.

There's a difference between finding someone scummy and thinking they are the best lynch for a day. With Ooba's rolefishing, Fate's misrep, Thatguy's inability to back up a single word he says, and Konowa's dream world... I haven't decided who the best lynch is.

[Leech]

What is it with the people in this game going to the extremes? I never said you're alone in the personal attacks. You do have a rather condescending attitude when someone questions you. It makes it difficult to decipher your actual points from your attacks. If you have a problem being perceived in that manner, you could always focus more on the game and less on making snide comments that serve no purpose.

[Leech]

Next, when I asked you why if you you did not vote Fate if you think he purposefully misrepped you, you reply that you thought your vote on Ythan made more sense. This I do not understand. Your vote on Ythan was supposedly to get the game going, and when you think someone misreps you, you fail to vote because you are worried about the OMGUS? Now, if I see a player about worry how town perceives them, then I am going to think that they are likely scum.

I did think my vote on Ythan made more sense. I've also repeatedly stated afterwards that I made a bad choice. What exactly are you expecting from me, to all of a sudden change history? It was a bad choice, my logic at the time as flawed. I've been pretty vocal about this fact for quite some time.

I was also never worried about the OMGUS either. I said it wouldn't be productive to change my vote at that time, because he'd simply dismiss it as such. Why don't you point out where I ever said I was worried about it? There is absolutely no point in purposely putting yourself in a place that you know what the outcome will be. I wasn't worried about it, I felt it would be pointless.

Ythan stated that Sando was not putting any content in his posts, and you respond with "but there is content right here!". The whole "I was not defending Sando, I was questioning Ythan" just feels icky.

Did you overlook my first post on the matter, or just ignore it? Here's my first reply to Ythan about the Sando situation:

@Ythan: Is your comment about Sando's "scummy, fluffy no-content" play style in reference to how he's responding to you, or everyone?

That was my very first response to Ythan's post about his lack of content. I followed that one up with the one where I pointed out that I felt he has contributed, and asked whether or not he agreed. This was obviously an investigation of Ythan instead of a Sando defense.

You are putting a hell of a lot of words in my mouth, and are completely inaccurate with many of the things you are saying. The posts in this thread are contradicting your argument. I simply cannot believe you'd be wrong on all the things you have been, without doing it on purpose.

And by the Sando mess, I clearly mean the traction his wagon is gaining.

That would only make sense if I actively pursued a Sando lynch, when I didn't. You're acting like he we had this long debate when that never happened. I think up until your post, I referred to something he posted, maybe three times. In fact, only a single post was entirely dedicated to his comments. The fact remains, I didn't even defend him in the first place. I was questioning Ythan, which is more than obvious if you don't completely ignore how the subject started.

Is this who you think is likely to be scum?

I think you are likely to be scum, as of your last post. You are stretching, putting words in my mouth, and attacking me for things that never even happened. Those were the people I'm most suspicious of, but your last post just oozed scum.

Unvote, Vote: Konowa

[Leech]

Contradiction:
In Post 4, he thinks Ythan's posting is a good form of scumhunting. - "I don't think he's scummy due to his posting style actually being a good form of scumhunting."
In Post 6, "He has a high quantity of posts that don't amount to much."
He's either scumhunting or he's not doing much - Which one is it?

His style of posting is much like that of Ray Frost, which I've played several games with. I have seen this style of posting nail scum on multiple occasions. In post 6, I was trying to do something to get the game going. People can say that it was already going, that seems to be the main argument against me, but it wasn't going for me. I was having an extremely hard time finding something to post. So I made a move, which I have said repeatedly now, was a stupid one.

I'll add more to this when I get home from work.

[Leech]

So your first opinion was legit and the next one was a contradiction to get things moving for you.

What? It wasn't even a contradiction. I have seen a style like yours find scum, I never retracted that statement. I didn't say you weren't scum hunting, I said your posts weren't amounting to much. Meaning amount to much information that we can use. While I've seen your method work, it doesn't really help the other players in the game. When you make simple statements sure you can be hunting while taking notes to yourself, but it's not helping anyone else. I think I worded my post wrong earlier because I was in a rush.

The original idea, one which I have stated countless times was a stupid one, was for two reasons. 1: Because I felt being the most active poster you would bring more life to this game. 2: Nothing was personally drawing me into it, I was having a hard time finding something to post. So I wanted to start discussion.

Yes, it was a bad idea, I've realized this for quite a while now.

Trust me, if you were going through the stuff I was in RL, you may not know why you did some things as well. Why do you keep bringing this up if you're not sure how scummy it is?

So you have noticed that I mentioned it more than once? I keep bringing it up because there was no answer for it. Your answer goes a long way in me determining whether or not it was scummy. The fact that you ended that statement on such a defensive manner really makes me question your response. Why shouldn't I bring it up if I'm not sure how scummy it is? What's the alternative, to ignore it?

Today, I'd prefer a Konowa lynch for the reasons I've posted in this thread, but I wouldn't oppose a Thatguy lynch either. I think Konowa's more likely to be scum, but Thatguy's entire defense boils down to "It's day 1, so I don't have to answer for my actions!" which is also pretty bad. Others have really made me question them, but haven't disturbed me nearly as much as those two.

[Leech]

Don't know what to think about Leech/Konowa right now. Not really a fan of Leech throwing a vote down on a non-main candidate.

I voted for Konowa before Ooba proposed the timeline we should follow (4 days ago). You have posted since that vote as well. If voting for Konowa bothers you, why didn't you mention it before?

[Leech]

@Mod: I don't think Leech is aware the game started again. He is active on the site.

I knew it was active. Every time I tried to read through the thread, it kept timing out. It is still doing this, to some extent. I'll try to get a better post out, if the site will let me.

@Dana: Why did you go from finding Sando and Konowa the most suspicious two blindly agreeing with Konowa two posts later? You said you don't like what Konowa did today, care to elaborate on that? What actions are you referring to?

[Leech]

However, I think Sando and horror are scum.

So, what changed since your last post where you claimed that you thought that I was a scum partner?

@ooba: Uh, what do you not understand about it? You asked me if I thought Sando was scum, who was scum with him. I responded with Leech.

You have yet to post a single solid reasoning for that suspicion. However, the second Ythan says "Leech is innocent" you all of a sudden change your tune without any apparent reasoning for it. You just simply move on to the next person not really explaining why. I know you said that you wouldn't have time to post reasoning until later, but why didn't you post it in the initial post in the first place?

@Ythan: You were pretty adamant about Magna being scum, did that change? You went from really applying pressure to not even mentioning it, awfully fast.

[Leech]

What possible anti-town motive is there for a single neighbour to claim? They have absolutely no power anymore if they are part of a 2-neighbour team with their partner dead. How on earth can it possibly hurt us for the last neighbour to claim?

There's a difference between a move being anti-town, and one being pro-town. Claiming for the sake of us knowing, isn't pro-town. We do know there is a neighbor, and that claim later on could actually accomplish something. Right now, it would actually accomplish very little. We'd get one confirmed town until dawn of day 2, when that player would most likely be dead.

There is almost no chance of this being a town/scum neighbor if you are familiar with the flavor of this game. Considering it was Heylia her nieghbor/business partner would most likely be Conrad, which would be a town role. If that is the case, like I think it is, then Conrad would probably have another type of PR, that we should not throw away. It's not a good move, at all.

[Leech]

Ythan, a single neighbour left, assuming they're 'just' a neighbour, has literally no power. They can't talk to anyone anymore, and they're not confirmed townie. There's no downside for town for a single non-PR neighbour to claim, and it gives us information, which is good.

Sando, are you familiar with the show? Heylia's buisness partner would be one of two people: Nancy or Conrad. Either one of those two roles would most likely not "just" be a neighbor. Those are two important characters.

Also, your point is bad on the flip-side as well. If you are correct, which is unlikely, then all a claim would do is narrow down the PR:Vanilla ratio by one, giving the scum a better chance to kill a PR. Your idea is bad no matter how you look at it, it only benefits scum.

I think we have to be overly cautious in this game when it comes to claims. I'm very familiar with the series, and I don't know of any character that would logically be a doctor. I don't think we have a way to protect anyone that claims. So, let's not claim until it will be beneficial in a way that isn't: "Oh, so you might be town...good to know."

[Leech]

@ Leech – Based on all that’s gone on who are our two top scum suspects? I see well reasoned posts but no significant attention to a suspect.

I don't think "we" have a top two suspects. I'm not sure who "our" top suspects should be, due to not knowing your alignment. I find your usage of the word "our" to be a rather scummy play to try and setup for a mislynch if you die and flip scum.

I'm going to wait for Knight to finish his read and wall of text before I post what I think. I don't want to potentially influence anything he says.

[Leech]

I was about to say the same, we are most definitely in LyLo. I want a mass claim, preferably in this order:

Konowa
Sando
Ooba
HavingFitz
MagnaOfIllusion

[Leech]

Odd-night vigs are often paired with even-night vigs, and Griddle was odd-night, so I wouldn't rule it out.

Posts like this, right now, are not helpful. Speculate only when everyone claims.

Konowa
Sando
HavingFitz
MagnaOfIllusion

This is the order I'd like to see claimed in. I have my reasons.

[Leech]

Seriously? I was responding to the speculation from Ythan, and you pick up only my response as not helpful?

"I could see this role being in the game" makes it easy for someone to claim that ability, especially if they are last and scum. No one should speculate on the roles that could appear for that very reason.

My opinion on the mass-claims - Do it popcorn style. Start with a random person - that person claims - chooses the next person who should claim. It increases information.

How about we do this? Let's all compile a list of players. Top suspects on top, lowest suspects on the bottom. Then make a list from that. I want the people seen as the scummiest players to claim first so they risk outing theirselves. Random methods are pointless. Let's use the claims to actually catch scum.

[Leech]

Also, my point is that Ythan was the one who initiated the vig speculation, I merely responded.

Ythan's posts were analytical of what type of threats we are up against. He was using the number of deaths to try to figure out how many scum parties there are. You posted a potential role that may/may not be in the game. Those are two very different things. His posts don't give scum ideas that they can use, yours did. Are you seriously saying that we should be tossing around role abilities that might/might not be in the game during a proposed mass claim?

[Leech]

Not actually random - Lets say we start off with Konowa. He gets to choose the next person who claims - that actually increases information and will help in pairing analysis.

Unless Konowa is scum, then he can simply choose town to decrease the odds of a scum partner claiming a role that someone else has. The scum should be forced to go first.

Alternatively, I like Ythan's idea too - everyone giving their order also increases info. Here - its just your ordering of players.

That was also my idea. Yes, I listed my preferred order and I realized that I was wrong for doing so, so I proposed that idea.

[Leech]

We need more of an order structure. Here's the current "lists." For this to work we need the input from everyone.

Leech:

Konowa
Sando
HavingFitz
MagnaOfIllusion

Ythan:

Sando

Ooba:

Sando:

Ythan
Ooba

Konowa:

HavingFitz:

MagnaOfIllusion:

[Leech]

Why do you have Konowa at the top of your list? Do you mean his response to me?

He's the person I find to be the scummiest. If you look at how he's played this game you'll probably notice how many of his plays have just reeked of opportunism. Though, considering he's MIA, I wouldn't be opposed to Sando claiming first.

[Leech]

Holy shit, please no one vote until all the claims are out. If there's three scum, a single vote can lose the game. Let's not do that.

@Ythan, why are you trying to correct people on their claims before everyone's done? Let's not give information to the scum in this game until all the claims are out. Then we can call out everyone at once, who's claim appears to be suspect.

[Leech]

No offense, man, but it really doesn't look like you know what you're doing. You seriously need to stop commenting about the flavour of the roles until everyone's claimed. What you're saying can influence false claims down the line.

[Leech]

So, you're saying that your role doesn't have a name?

[Leech]

I am, Sanjay Vanilla Townie

Claims:
Ythan: Nancy Botwin - JOAT
Ooba: Doug Wilson - VT
Crywolf: Celia Hodes - Gov? (Incorrect flavor included)
Sando: Dean Hodes - Miller
MagnaofIllusion: Conrad Shepard - Buisness Partner
Having Fitz: Andy Botwin - Voteless/Tracker
Leech: Sanjay - VT

Ok, here's my analysis of the claims.

Ythan claimed Nancy Botwin which is a character that absolutely has to be in the game. No one counter-claimed that role. It would be impossible for that role to be town, considering all the related roles to Nancy have shown up town. If anyone in this game is safe, it's Ythan. You guys should really leave your beef with Ythan alone at this point. You may think he's scummy for how he's played, but if he was lying about his role there would absolutely have to be a counter-claim. It would not be a Weeds game without Nancy Botwin.

Ooba claimed Doug Wilson. It's believable that Doug would be in the game, however I'm not entirely sure that he would be town. He was part of Nancy's original group, but Doug is only truly loyal to himself.

Crywolf claimed Celia hodes. If there is a scum role listed in this massclaim list, it would be Celia. She has tried to screw Nancy over on multiple occassions. She's also not the Mayor of Aggrestic, she was a council woman. She's hated by her daughter Isabelle, and most likely wouldn't be the same alignment as her.

Sando claimed Dean Hodes, and miller. A miller role would make sense, due to his relations with Celia. This further implicates that Celia would be scum. Why would this role be a miller if Celia was town? If anything Celia would be a miller, if she was a town role. In any case, Dean could be scum as well. It all depends on what seasons this game is based off of.

MagnaofIllusion claimed Conrad Shepard as a buisness partner to Heylia. That makes perfect sense flavor wise.

Having Fitz had the most bizarre claim. First he refused to claim a role name, then he finally stated he was Andy. I don't see why Andy would become a Tracker randomly, but the role of Andy would probably be in the game.

So, looking at the claims I think the scum would most likely be Crywolf and Sando. Crywolf obviously first, as she claimed a role that would be scum, whereas it is possible that Dean could be a miller.

[Leech]

Damn it, I can't believe I mistyped that:

Ythan claimed Nancy Botwin which is a character that absolutely has to be in the game. No one counter-claimed that role. It would be impossible for that role to be town, considering all the related roles to Nancy have shown up town

Should read:

Ythan claimed Nancy Botwin which is a character that absolutely has to be in the game. No one counter-claimed that role. It would be impossible for that role to be scum, considering all the related roles to Nancy have shown up town

[Leech]

Guys just wanna point this out here, theme games may use a theme but all roles don't follwo the story line.

The only problem with this line of thinking is that from the flips I've seen, that's not the case. Everyone that's been aligned with Nancy has been town. So, that leads me to believe that those who haven't been aligned with Nancy will be scum. I get your point, but that's not backed up by the flips in this game.

Vote: Crywolf20084

From my perspective you claimed a scum role and tried to cover it as town. Your misinterpretation of Celia's role in Aggrestic makes me believe it's a fake claim. I can't really imagine Reckoner running this game and getting things like that wrong, especially with the flavor of my role pm being entirely accurate.

Also, what you need to realize is that this isn't entirely based on flavor. Konowa's been scummy since almost the very beginning of the game. His blatantly opportunistic plays in this game only amplify my suspicions of your, apparently, false claim. If it was one or the other, I'd entertain the thought of being wrong, but both at the same time? No, I'm pretty sure I have it right.

[Leech]

So let me get this straight, Ythan claims Nancy with an innocent on Leech, who then basically says that Nancy is obv town. Then immediately put at L-1 someone purely based on flavour.

The entire show is based around Nancy Botwin, that character has been town, and Nancy absolutely has to be in the game. She's the main character. No one counter-claimed Nancy, so what does that leave? And it wasn't purely on flavor, if you could actually read you'd realize that.

Also, what you need to realize is that this isn't entirely based on flavor. Konowa's been scummy since almost the very beginning of the game. His blatantly opportunistic plays in this game only amplify my suspicions of your, apparently, false claim. If it was one or the other, I'd entertain the thought of being wrong, but both at the same time? No, I'm pretty sure I have it right.

Wow, it's amazing how you just chose to ignore the entire second half of my post, to claim that it was entirely flavor based.

According to flavour, my character is loved by my daughter (town) and hated by who Leech/Ythan are sure is scum, Celia, yet they're happy to throw the suspicion out there.

That depends on which specific time-line you are looking at. There were times where Dean and Celia were actually happy together. Considering it's been so on-again/off-again it's not inconceivable that your role could be town. However, Celia has stood against Nancy since the beginning. She's the longest running Antagonistic character on that show.

Leech also conveniently uses flavour to clear Nancy, but noone else

That's because Nancy

has

to be town. If she were scum, than Shane and Silas would have also been scum. It would not make sense for Nancy to be scum in this game. I love how you continue to push for the lynch of the one player that could actually cause harm to the scum in this game. You don't know what other JOAT abilities that Ythan might have, so I think that's worrying you. The more you post, the more it's obvious that it is a Celia/Dean scum team.

Ythan/Leech for scum, funnily enough using carefully planned claims to get a lynch.

Why don't you specifically tell everyone about these "carefully planned claims" that you're speaking of?

[Leech]

:< Make me do all that reading just to kill me.

Vote: Sando

Isn't it funny how Sando didn't comment on this appeal to emotion and reasonless vote? Instead he decided to pursue a lynch of Ythan who claimed Nancy Botwin. He'll claim that my vote was "purely flavour" immediately after I state my other reason for voting Crywolf, yet let a completely reasonless vote slip by? At the start of the day many thought it was a LyLo situation, yet Sando ignores that Crywolf just voted without reason. Again he does this while ignoring the fact that I did have other reasons for voting for Crywolf.

Also, it's blindingly obvious that with three votes on Crywolf, that if she were town then the scum would have hammered by now.

[Leech]

Leech pointed out the problem with the flavour perfectly I think (although I doubt he saw it that way Razz ). It wasn't that Dean/Doug/Celia were linked as scum, it was that flavour basically confirmed too many townies. Process of elimination by that point.

Actually, had your lynch not happened so quickly, I was going to call out Ooba as well. Flavour alone, Doug would have made sense due to his fling with Celia in the show. Those were the only groups that made sense when Celia flipped scum. I was really hoping I'd be alive in the last day phase to say that, though with Ythan confirming me...I knew I was going to be killed.

It was a fun game. Though, I can't believe how much effort it took to lynch Konowa. He was dreadfully scummy in this game. The way he jumped on me in the beginning of the game, and never let up really sealed it for me.

[Leech]

Flavor won this game for the town, no doubt about it. Replacing Kowona certainly didn’t help things for the scum.

I don't think so. Konowa and Sando were already heavily suspected at the time of mass claim. Crywolf's claim obviously helped make that decision, but that slot probably wasn't going to survive much longer anyway. On the lists of who should claim first, ordered by who was the scummiest, Sando and Konowa were always up at the top.

If we just voted based off of those lists, without the claim, we still would have won. I think stating that it was purely flavour kind of cheapens the town's win on this, when in reality, we were already looking in the right direction.