Mini 686 - Chess Mafia (Done)

[Thok]

/in to replace

[Thok]

Thok:
This is a perfect game for us, isn't it- no lynching or nightkills to end any intense argument that might put us at each others' throats. Welcome aboard! Black will be PMing you your alignment.

Have you implemented something so I know which of the three people I will be replacing? Not that it matters for anything but continuity sake.

For the record, I've actually read about 30 or so pages of the game in the last day or so, but more for amusement value than anything once I knew about the chess game=win condition stuff. For obvious reasons, I won't be saying anything about the chess game until I actually know my alignment.

[Thok]

I've gotten a role PM, and I'm replacing ZazieR.

Move Kd3

, as per EmpTyger's explanation of why Kd1 is bad. Ke1 is essentially us saying we want 3 move repetition, and anything else seems to lose material.

Move Count

Kd3 (3):

Herodotus, EmpTyger, Thok

[Thok]

Mr. Black, can you continue to post the board after each move. I'm still having trouble with the R1e2 move that it won't allow, but the workaround I used earlier does the trick. So you can start with this, if you'd like.

Mr. Black appears to be updating the board in the first post. (He hasn't updated the player list yet.)

[Thok]

I assume it's still 5 out of 9 to lynch. I just make it so there is 7 people playing rather than 6.

[Thok]

I can see no reason to do anything other than

Move: Rxg7

I assume you mean Rxg8+, or RxQ+ (Rxg7 is both impossible, and bad for White if it is possible).

But yeah, taking the queen is the right move. I'll vote for it once everybody gets a chance to show up for today.

[Thok]

Qxd5+ is a free tempo, right?

[Thok]

I like Qxd5+, but Kxe2 looks interesting.

Unless there's a strong response to it that I've missed, Qxd5+ is a much better move, since we can play Kxe2 next move after black is forced to respond to the check.

[Thok]

Actually, I should place a vote,

Move: Qxd5+

Also, welcome to the game Haylen. Somebody will roll a die to see if you replace Ah2190 or The Central Scrutinizer, and then Mr. Black will send you a role.

[Thok]

And I should include a move count

Move Count

Kxe2 1

Indigo Heron

Qxd5+ 1

Thok

[Thok]

A couple quick comments

1. Technically it needs to be "move x", not "vote x".
2. For the sake of everybody, we're including a move count each time we move or unmove.
3. I'd like to hear the other 5 players post, in case I've missed something big.

[Thok]

Move Kxe2

seems fine to me

Move Count

(1) Kxe2 (Thok)

[Thok]

Hmm...if we took the bishop, we'd be the line of the castle.

I think Queen to D8...

Qd8 loses immediately to BxQ.

[Thok]

Can you explain why it instantly loses? The king can only move one space at a time...unless it's the bishop i've just noticed sat in the corner that can take her?

As I mentioned in my previous post, BxQ was what causes that move to lose. (In chess notation, that's short for Bishop takes Queen, and I can't imagine us winning down a rook and a bishop.)

To be fair, we'd still have the ability to lynch people and pretend this was an actual mafia game. But still, I'd like to win the chess game, since that's almost certainly easier.

[Thok]

After 38. Qf3+ and 39. Qxe2, Re7 by black is really obnoxious because of the threat of Re3+ followed by abusing the discovered check if we move Kd2 in response. We're probably still winning after even if we deal with that, but it's fairly obnoxious.

After Kxe2, the king is in a much better situation. Rook checks aren't something we need to be to worried about, as much as the rook supported by the bishop.

[Thok]

We don't need to move Kd2 in response to Re3+. We can trade the queen for the rook and bishop instead. We're up a pawn, which is passed, so we should win the promotion race, and then it's an easy KQ vs. K ending.

You're missing the point. If we do that line, we're stuck having to worry about the threat of Re3+ for the next 3-4 moves (which keeps us from doing interesting stuff with our queen, for example), while black gets time to consolidate his position. The threat of Re3+ basically forces us to keep the Q guarding the e3 square when it could be doing useful stuff instead, and is more powerful then the move Re3.

If we do Kxe2, black has a lot less pressure and counterplay.

(I agree with the sentiment of trading the queen for the rook and the bishop; I think Kxe2 is more likely to get black to put himself in a position where he does that.)

[Thok]

Sigh. Here's what I'm imagining will be the result of Qf3+

>

1. e4 c5 2. Nc3 Nc6 3. f4 e6 4. Nf3 f5 5. exf5 exf5 6. Qe2 Be7 7. Nd5 Nb4 8. Nxb4 cxb4 9. d4 Nf6 10. Qc4 a6 11. Bd2 b5 12. Qd3 O-O 13. Qxf5 d5 14. Qd3 Ne4 15. g3 Bf5 16. Qb3 Nxd2 17. Kxd2 Be4 18. Re1 Kh8 19. Qe3 g5 20. Bd3 gxf4 21. Qe2 Bxd3 22. Qxd3 Bd6 23. Re6 Rf6 24. Ng5 Ra7 25. Qf3 Rf5 26. h4 Be7 27. Qd3 Qf8 28. g4 Rxg5 29. hxg5 Bxg5 30. Re5 Qg8 31. Qf5 Rg7 32. Rhe1 Bh4 33. e1e2 f3 34. Re8 Bg5 35. Kd3 fxe2 36. Rxg8 Kxg8 37. Qxd5 Kf8 38. Qf3 Ke8 39. Qxe2 Re7 40. Qf3 h6 41. c3 bxc3 42. bxc3 Re6

That looks really drawish to me (or at best, looks like a 40-60 move endgame; the dream scenario where black stupidly trades his rook and bishop for our queen won't happen.) By comparison, I like the position after Kxe2 much better; black has less tempos to set up a stonewall and are queen is much better positioned.

[Thok]

Why 41. c3?

Because I want the to be able to move the queen so we can actually do something with it; c3 frees up the c2 square for the white king so the queen no longer has to guard e3.

In any event, it's not trading the R+B for the Q that leads to the win. It's the threat.

WE DON"T HAVE A THREAT TO TRADE THE R+B FOR THE QUEEN!!!! That's the point. Look at the position after the line I've posted; how are we going about breaking through black's position? There are ways, but they feel long and painful.

[Thok]

Thok/Sudo:
Take a breath you 2 and settle down. I think you're both right, because there's more than 1 way to win a chess game.

Fair enough. I'm probably overestimating how easy the win is after Kxe2.

[Thok]

Veerus, think before you post. (Assuming you aren't scum.)

[Thok]

And yes, I really do mean that, given that one of the lines you've just posted loses us the game with the obvious response by black.

[Thok]

Veerus, think before you post. (Assuming you aren't scum.)

Not exactly useful, Thok. Maybe you should think before you post. (Assuming you aren't scum.)

I've thought of about 3 different responses to this, and I've decided that all of them are too snarky to be good for the long term health of the game.

If somebody wants me to give my partial analysis of veerus's post that sparked my comment, then I will. But I'd like to think that some of you can analyze a chess position on your own.

[Thok]

I know the analysis- I wasn't jumping on the fact that you don't like the move. I was jumping on the fact that you were acting like an asshole.

If you've played with me before, you'll notice that being a jerk isn't much of a scum tell for me.

I'll try to tone it down. But veerus in his most recent post is at best town not doing the proper amount of analysis and is at worst scum trying to talk us into a bad line. I'm not sure why my tone should make you ignore that fact.

[Thok]

I dont like using this letters system

For reference, Algebraic Chess Notation. There's a rival system call Descriptive Chess Notation that you might be more familiar with. Having some sort of notation is useful shorthand when you start talking about lines that are 10 moves ahead, or if you are recording your moves either for a tournament game or to record for future study.

[Thok]

Qc5 isn't bad. I suspect there are a half dozen moves of similar quality; Qd7 and Qf5 also seem to warrant some investigation.

(I don't have a particularly strong opinion of a move because none is obviously better to me yet.)

[Thok]

we need to keep the initiative, which means we need to keep checking..

This isn't really true. It's unclear to me that we can break through black just with the queen alone, and I suspect we'll need to bring up the king and push the d pawn at some point.

Checking is good if it gets us material, but we need to avoid the tendency to check merely to check.

That said, Qd7 does put pressure on Black that he needs to think about.

[Thok]

The more I think about it, the more I like Qf5.

Note to everyone: Qa8 seems just as viable, as well as Qc5. Qd7 to prop the centre passed pawn will drain Black's materiel.

Qa8 feels like checking for the sake of checking.

[Thok]

Well, it does seem irritating in nature, but it still picks of Black's pawns one by one.

Huh? Qa8 doesn't get any of Black's pawns.

[Thok]

I don't think that's the pawn that IH is referring to.

My comment referred to black's pawns collectively; I'm not neglecting any pieces. Do you think IH was being metaphorical, or do you think there's some play after Qa8 that I'm missing?

On Qf5, I have some idea of how I want to respond to each possible Black response that I'm happy with. I haven't reached that point with any other move yet.

[Thok]

Please note that I'm only asking if you think I'm missing a line after Qa8. I don't need you to tell me what you think the line is.

[Thok]

@EmpTyger: that's what I figured.

[Thok]

It still does not change things that we, White will still attempt to push the central pawn with the queen and king supporting it.

That is true and it gives birth to this idea -- do we really need to move our queen now? It's on a good square. What about Kd3 instead -- get the king back under the cover so black doesn't get a tempo by checking. It's not like we won't need to move the king up to advance the pawn. Is there anything wrong with doing it now?

There's nothing wrong with doing it now, but after analyzing it I think Qf5 is a better move.

Black currently can't gain a tempo by checking along the e-file, and its unclear he can ever do it.

[Thok]

I'm willing to hammer Qf5. Is there anybody who's not currently voting who sees something wrong with it?

[Thok]

d5 seems natural, unless people have a better suggestion.

[Thok]

Is Qc5, threatening Qxb4, viable now? Or does Black get too much counter play?

[Thok]

we need to move the pawn off a black square.. Qc5 followed by Bf6 creates unnecessary complications..

After 40. Qc5 Bf6, 41. Qa7+ is possibly worth pursuing

I'm more worried about 40 ... Bc1 however.

My current problem with 40 d5 at the moment is trying to figure out the long term plan after 40 ... Be7. Strangely, that line of thought suggests going with 40 Qd7 (not to reposition the queen, but to keep the bishop off d7.)

The pawn at d4 is relatively safe for now; black doesn't really have a way to attack bring a second attacker onto it.

[Thok]

41. Qa7+ Kh6.... then what, we exchange a pawn on the 2nd rank for a pawn on the 4th?

We'd likely trade our g and d pawns for all of black's queen side pawns, which is something I don't necessarily have a problem with, since we're better able to take advantage of the passed pawns.

That said,

Move Qd7

[Thok]

Eveyone's going against my strategies and I don't know what move to make now cause we can't take any of the power pieces .__. Can't we just give up and start lynching people?

Nah, we're winning the chess game. It's just a slow method of winning.

The basic idea is that black can't really do anything, since he has to keep us from promoting the d pawn. So we can slowly take advantage of weaknesses in his position to win more material.

[Thok]

We're approaching a deadline. I'll move to d5 on Monday if it is necessary to get some move to happen, but I've said why I prefer Qd7.

[Thok]

half the people have yet to weight in with their opinions... when's the deadline?

If I'm reading the thread correctly, we generally have a week long deadline, and Mr. Black opened the day late on Tuesday. So theoretically we should have roughly 56 hours (2 1/3 days) from the of time of this post.

[Thok]

So that was a productive 24 hours.

Is there some sort of convention on prods in our new mod-free world? Because I'm tempted to prod everybody myself.

[Thok]

That's not a good attitude to have. When life seems jolly rotten, then there's something you've forgotten...

Meh.

Not that I disagree, but Haylen's comment clearly reflects her chess ability and how people are reacting to it. As a scum tell it is mostly worthless (it ranges from a very slight town tell to a null tell in my opinion.)

If you have any thoughts on d5 versus Qd7 versus Qc5 (although we're probably not going to play that), feel free to discuss them. That said, I'll be moving my vote to d5 to avoid deadline if people don't run up something else.

[Thok]

If you have any thoughts on d5 versus Qd7 versus Qc5 (although we're probably not going to play that), feel free to discuss them.

Also,

Current Move Count:

d5 (3) - Sudo_Nym, Abstract Actuary, Haylen
Qd7 (2) - Indigo Heron, Thok

[Thok]

If you're happy with d5, cast a vote for it. If you're not happy with d5, do some analysis and explain why people should vote another move.

[Thok]

I'm willing to hammer d5 in about 6-7 hours (which would be 3-4 hours before the deadline hits.) I prefer Qd7, but on rethinking I don't think Black's responses to d5 are as strong as I thought they were and I also realize there's a deadline around.

[Thok]

Let's do this.

Move: d5

d5 (5) - Sudo_Nym, Abstract Actuary, Haylen, Herodotus, Thok
Qd7 (1) - Indigo Heron
Qc5 (1) - veerus

(I'm a little early from when I promised, but I don' t think anybody cares.)

[Thok]

Pondering Kd3, Ke3, Qd7, and Qe5+. All of them likely win, with Qe5+ being the riskiest line but also probably the fastest win if it does win.

[Thok]

Well, having a player who is here is better than a person who was on a long v/la, right?

What do you think about the chess game? (Theoretically I care about what you think about the mafia part of the game as well, but for the moment the chess part is more important.)

[Thok]

I thought for sure that the actual mafia alignments were almost completely irrelevant.

They're only completely irrelevant as long as we are winning the chess game. Plus, a little poking for reactions is useful if I want to be able to guess scum correctly after town wins the chess game. You know, for bonus points or something.

Mostly, the point of my comment was "CSL, talk about the chess game instead of pointing out that you will be more active then the guy you replaced." But you know, with something resembling a bit more tact.

[Thok]

Don't think it matters between Ke3 and Kd3, but go for it if you want to, Thok or whoever.

There are useful tactical advantages for both Ke3 and Kd3. I think I prefer Ke3, but I also suspect the difference is small enough not to matter.

Both are clearly better than Qc8.

[Thok]

Move Qe5

Nuff said. There choice is to save the bishop or save the king. They;ll save the king, there is very few places it can go then. We'll have the king cornered.

With just the queen, their king isn't in that much danger. I do think Qe5 is interesting, but if you want to play it you should think about what you plan to do after 41. Qe5 Kf7.

[Thok]

Again, Ke3 is just asking for Black to check it to slow tempo down.

Black doesn't really have a better space for his bishop than where it currently is, so a bishop check doesn't really gain black a tempo. It's not like were planning to keep the king at either d3 or e3 in the long run anyways.

[Thok]

Will not accept Ke3. It is not a move I'd make at this late stage.

Do you feel the same way about Kd3? What moves do you like?

I prefer Ke3 to Kd3, but not enough so that I wouldn't vote for Kd3 if we decide advancing the king is the right general plan but others won't vote for Ke3.

(On a side note, we really ought to get a good chess computer to run through the game and white's choices once the game is over.)

[Thok]

I think we should all listen to haylen.

If you want people to play Qe5, you should answer my question about how we respond to Kf7. (This goes to CSL as well.)

Chess isn't mafia. Nobody is going to listen to gut, because both sides have perfect information.

[Thok]

Herodotus/Sudo/Thok:
Anything you're waiting on? Or can you vote for your preferred king move? Because we need to decide on one or the other so that we're not splitting the vote at deadline.

Laziness mostly. (OK, I'd like to see Haylen or CSL try to answer my question, and I honestly should spend a little bit of time analyzing Qe5+ for myself but I can vote in the meantime.)

Move: Ke3

movecount:
Ke3 (3) - veerus, EmpTyger, Thok
Qe5 (1) - Haylen
Kd3 (1) - Abstract Actuary

[Thok]

I'm pondering Qe4. I'm likely to vote for it soon.

[Thok]

I could care less for such small game right now.

I'm utterly confused how you think Qc8 helps at all.

[Thok]

Mr. Black said that you probably have 6-12 weeks of gameplay left.

I will say that 6-12 weeks of gameplay strikes me as an underestimate. Unless a horrible blunder happens soon, 20 weeks sounds like a more reasonable lower bound (assuming 20 moves and a week per move, both of which seem like reasonable assumptions.)

[Thok]

Anyhow, I much prefer Qe5.

Qe5 Kf7, then what?

[Thok]

What about Qd7? Not ready to vote, but so far I'm liking it better than Qe4 or Qe5.

I think Qd7 is better than Qe5, for what it's worth.

Thok:
Can you try to not give Black move advice? Obviously you should point out problems if there's need of persuading us to vote differently, but don't just gratuitously suggest the best response for Black. I'm not sure how much long-term analytic capability they have.

I agree with you, but I had already pointed out the strength of that move yesterday. That was the time to yell at me. (Actually the time to yell was a few moves earlier, as there's one move I truly regret mentioning.) But your concern is the reason I haven't really said that much about the responses to Qe4.

[Thok]

I'm not seeing any advantages to Qe4 and one big disadvantage- we wouldn't be playing Ke4 any time soon. Is there something clever I'm missing with Qe4? (y/n)

I'm not convinced there's an obvious line of play after the Qd7/Ke4 sequence. I specifically don't believe there's a line that depends on us immediately putting the queen on d7. (Also, I suspect you might be missing something in the possible end game scenarios.)

Moreover, Qe4 doesn't completely rule out the possibility of later playing Qe5 and Qd7.

[Thok]

Mr Black

, Please prod everybody.

Move: Qe4

(If I was doing Condorcet voting, I'd do Qe4>Qd7>Qe5>Qc8>[Qd3, Qg5, Qh5]>[any other move]>No Move. The above order is a reflection of how strong I think a move is and how likely it is to reach 5 votes; I'd only vote Qc8 or worse if the alternative was the deadline hitting.)

[Thok]

Movecount
1 Qc8 (Indigo Heron)
1 Qd7 (EmpTyger)
1 Qe4 (Thok)

[Thok]

Hold on, there. Procedural issue.

It is not Mr. Black's responsibility to prod players.

Fair enough. Obviously, that comment was out of frustration that the last three moves have had a relative lack of discussion.

Or to put it another way, since I've replaced in, I have roughly a quarter of the posts. And we've twice had situations where I've double posted because nobody has posted in the 24 hours between my post.

(I'm averaging somewhere between 1-2 post per real life day in this game, so obviously the issue isn't that I'm posting too much.)

[Thok]

I check this game (nearly) every morning, so there is never a need to prod me. If there is nothing new to say from my last post then I don't post anything.

Post anyways, even if it's just to say "I still favor move X". It's important to keep an atmosphere where everybody is expected to post at least once a day, and the best way to do that is by example.

(I apologize for not responding to your chess question. I'm not quite sure how to respond to it without giving Black lots of information about my analysis of the current situation.)

[Thok]

---

Thok:
With 42. Qe4, do you have a response after all possible 42...? (y/n) Because I'm not seeing replies after some black moves.

There are responses where the line is fairly complicated. A lot of my responses are just variants on the Qe4->e5->d7 trick, which doesn't actually win but mostly leaves us no worse than before. There's also a lot of unorthodox tactics floating around.

[Thok]

But let me try one thing first:

I am confident enough to stand behind Qd7 with my life.

I believe I have a winning response to any move Black makes after Qd7, (yes, including Kf8). By "winning", I mean more than "non-losing", I also mean "non-stalemating". And if not, and as a result we are later are forced to resort to lynching, I will offer myself as the first lynch.

Why are you offering a non-stalemating guarantee rather than a non-drawing guarantee? (These are different; all stalemates are draws,but not all draws are stalemates.)

[Thok]

I've seen EmpTyger play this exact joke both as scum and town, so it's a null tell for him (he got his title for doing a similar stunt in Les Mis mafia as scum, and followed it up the next year as town in Princess Bride mafia. Both are relatively old mini themes and I'm sure there are more examples.)

I've been avoiding posting on this to see if anybody would react. But I think the fact that only one person out of 7 commented on a

scum claim

in a 12 hour period says something about the relative activity level of the game.

For what it's worth, Herodotus's reaction feels pro-town.

[Thok]

Thok: It's not like we didn't already know that this was a "check-in once per day or so" activity level game. And some of us remembered that it was, in fact, april Fool's Day.

And who cares what Herodotus's reaction was? I'm sure as hell not here to play straight mafia.

Wow, this post is extremely antitown. If it weren't for the circumstances and that I thought SensFan's play was generally protown, I'd be voting for you. But I feel that you've been generally trying to dissuade town from generating potentially useful mafia-related information for a while now.

I realize the circumstances make mafia play likely to be inconsequential, but it shouldn't be ignored.

Thok:
Can you make the same declaration of confidence in your move that I am in mine? Or alternatively (I don't want to get caught up in semantics of draw), what can you declare about your confidence?

I'm not going to try to declare the same level of confidence in my move as yours, but I think you are foolish to declare that level of confidence.

That said, I'm probably going to vote Qd7 soon if Qe4 doesn't get momentum, not because of the guarantee (which I'll probably mostly ignore for purposes of the mafia game) but because of the deadline.

[Thok]

Unmove, move: Qd7

as deadline is coming.

Move Count

4 Qd7 (EmpTyger, Abstract Actuary, Sudo_Nym, Thok)
1 Qe4 (veerus)
1 Qc8 (Indigo Heron)

[Thok]

What the play EmpTyger?

(I'm not going to follow you blindly, but you seem to have a better handle on what the plan is for this situation.)

[Thok]

If EmpTyger sees a forced win, I've got a guess at what the next move is.

@Indigo Heron, can you respond to the questions that we asked you yesterday?

@CSL, could you explain why this is your first post in roughly two weeks?

[Thok]

alright, so emp is suspiciously quiet... we need to come up with a move of our own... I suggest Ke4

I suspect EmpTyger isn't able to connect to the site at all; as far as I can tell he hasn't posted anywhere else on the site either.

I'm pretty sure the move he had in mind was g5; nothing else required the immediate move to d7 as opposed to doing Qe5 first. That said I haven't worked out all of the details yet (I think I understand the general gist of the related lines, but not with enough confidence to actually play it yet.)

[Thok]

@Thok: What questions?

OK, question in post 1933. (I want you to respond to my 1932, but that roughly says the same thing as what EmpTyger said in 1933, and is a comment rather than a quesiton.)

Basically what were you thinking with Qc8 and your comment yesterday.

[Thok]

@Thok: Well, it really does not matter now, does it?

I'd rather have you make a concrete statement now, in case we do eventually get down to lynching. If we wait, you get more time to either make up an answer if you are scum or to forget what you were thinking if you were town.

Ke4 is my default move (in the sense that if we don't find anything clearly better, it's what I will vote.) Kd4 strikes me as obviously inferior.

@Haylen: are you still able to follow the game? If you have computer issues or real life issues that keep you from participating in the game, it's better to let us know ASAP.

[Thok]

Does anybody have anything they need to say, or should I just hammer?

@EmpTyger: would it be worthwhile seeing if we can get somebody to hydra with you for your role, or somebody who can work as a temporary substitute? Do we even like the idea of having a hydra in this game?

[Thok]

Go this way and we win in 2 moves, baby. Seriously, I think we should do it this way.

1. d6 just loses the pawn to Rxd6. (Well, there is some related play, but I'm pretty sure the move does do what you think it does.)

2. Ke4 has already been hammered.

[Thok]

Ke5 isn't a bad move, but it feels like there should be a better one around.

[Thok]

I will be voting Ke5 in 24 hours.

5 other people need to post.

[Thok]

But seriously -- Thok, when you said that it feels there should be a better move, what move, if any, did you have in mind?

I was considering a few queen moves (Qc7 or Qc8). The problem is that nothing is obviously forcing, and the lines I get from either of them aren't obviously better than what I get from Ke5.

[Thok]

Move: Ke5

, as promised.

Move Count

Ke5

- 4 (Herodotus, Abstract Actuary, Sudo_Nym, Thok)

I don't agree it is the only move we have, but it seems to be close to the alternatives.

[Thok]

So now what?

[Thok]

Do you have a reason for preferring a3? c3 looks slightly better to me (based off of a bunch of minor things, like the current position of the queen and bishop).

[Thok]

We are in a superior position. We need to stall and force black into a more unfavorable position while improving ours.

Black can stall well enough to match White in this position. At some point we need to force something.

The reasonable alternatives to a3/c3 are queen development moves.

[Thok]

I think if we are to push pawns on the king side, c3 will be more viable after Kd4

In terms of what I think we plan to do, Kf4 would be more useful than Kd4. Really, we should have done c3 last turn.

(Yes, I should vote for something. But I'm being indecisive, and I sort of want to see more people [EmpTyger, Herodotus specifcally] comment about this plan.)

[Thok]

CSL and EmpTyger are the only ones who haven't posted so far today.

Move: c3

I've decided I'm happy with this.

Move List:
c3 - (3) Sudo_Nym, Abstract Actuary, Thok
Kd4 - (1) veerus
Qf5 - (1) Haylen

[Thok]

It's obvious.

Move: bxc3

[Thok]

Really?

Move: Kf4

(Given what I think we're planning, f4 is better than d4/e4 for our king, as I think the g pawn needs protection more than the d pawn.)

[Thok]

Kf4 is sufficiently better than Kd4 that I'm willing to do a full analysis of this position in order to force people to vote for it.

People who are supporting Kd4 don't have a good idea what White's current threats are. Kf4 is basically a guaranteed win.

Or to put it another way, after Kf4 I know what I plan to do after every black response, and how it will lead to a win. I'm not sure the Kd4 people know what they plan to do on their next move.

[Thok]

After further looking at it, I'm not sold on Kf4. Is there an immediate advantage to be gained? Kd4 seems better long term if we can block the bishop and sneak our king behind black a/b pawns.

Actually, while your analysis is wrong (we can't block off the bishop in the way you seem to be imagining), I'm not liking a response I saw to the move I'm looking at.

unvote

I'm pondering just having a full-fledged discussion of what our long term plan should be; I think the advantage of having everybody on the same page is worth more that revealing info to scum.

(Incidentally, I think Kd4 and Ke4 have virtually identical benefits, if we were to play either one of them.)

[Thok]

So the difference between Kf4 and Kd4/e4 would be whether we make a certain move immediately, or if we do a little prep work to set up that move. I had thought that we didn't need the prep work (and that speed was of the essence because Black might untie his position), but I rechecked Black's responses and found one I really didn't like (it was not an obvious response compared to some of the other ones.)

[Thok]

thok, since you have some ground-breaking lines in mind, can you compare kf4 and kd4.. i think kd4 works better, so if you can't refute it, maybe that's the move we can agree on..

I'm waiting on Abstract's response, to see if he sees what I see, and if there's a way to fix the problem with Kf4 (I don't think there is, and I'm going to be voting Kd4 if that's the case.)

Basically, if we want to play the groundbreaking line right away, we need to play Kf4. But I'm pretty sure we can't afford to do that, and Kd4/Ke4 are roughly equivalent in terms of what we need to do, and are both better than Kf4 if we're doing the alternative route. I'll be voting Kd4 of those two, since that's the move more people have agreed on.

[Thok]

The best move I can find for them is countered by simply moving our king back to its current spot.

Don't think about how Black will counter Kf4 or Kd4. think about how black will respond to our long term plan. (Also, if you truly believe what you are saying, you're either arguing for three move repetition or you're missing something.)

If we move Kd4, our king isn't staying on d4 for particularly long.

Also,

move Kd4

[Thok]

I'm considering our long term plan, and I think not having the g pawn protected will be a detriment to both long term plans I have in mind.

The g pawn will still be protected by the queen; I'm planning to have the king take over a different responsibility that I think we're letting the queen do currently.

[Thok]

Poke.

Any thoughts? I'm planning Kd3 unless somebody has a better idea.

Also, Black was basically forced to play Rg6, IMHO.

[Thok]

I don't really know what to do here. If our plan is to play Kd3, I wish we would have played Kf4, because the same move I was worried about then, is now still a threat.

I'm pretty sure that move is specifically why I decided not to play Kf4, and that we're better able to respond to it now.

I don't plan on keeping the king on d3 either, for what it's worth. I really which you have suggested a3/c3 when I wanted alternatives for Ke5.

[Thok]

what about Ke4? let black break the deadlock..

Because black will theoretically break the deadlock in his favor.

My current general plan is to reposition the white king to where it is best placed to help with the break through against the king side pawns. There is a legitimate concern about whether black might be able to untangle himself before we get there (although some of our threats limit this possibility), but I think we have more flexibility by having the king on the kingside and the queen guarding the g pawn than vice versa.

[Thok]

Anybody actually here?

[Thok]

Anyway, I'm pondering Qf5 as a possible strategy. Anyone got thoughts about that?

Qf5 doesn't actually accomplish anything. Or at least it's unclear what the point of Qf5 would be. I've told people roughly what the point of Kd3 is; given various people's reactions I'm willing to make it more explicit if necessary.

move Kd3

, just to make my thoughts official.

Move Count:

Kd3 (2): (Abstract Actuary, Thok)
draw (1): (veerus)

[Thok]

Guys, I'm currently doing a full analysis of Qf5+. It seems very strong so far, so I'd like people to hold off on votes until I complete my analysis of it. From what I've seen so far, Qf5+ would win White the game.

Feel free to post your thoughts. My general feeling is that Qf5+ just leads to a cycle of checks and queen moves without making any real progress, but if you find a line that works, then go for it.

[Thok]

I don't like Kd3 here. We just spent several moves getting our king up the board.

Sadly, those moves are a sunk cost. We shouldn't let them force us into a specific plan. The time to have worried about them was when we played Ke5 (and possibly earlier.)

If you can see a way to force a trade of the d pawn for the bishop, then go ahead and give a line. If I saw a line, I would be pursuing it over Kd3.

A trade of the d pawn and queen for the rook and bishop would be a losing line for us at the moment, IMHO. Not merely drawn, but actually losing.

[Thok]

The b-pawn can't be removed by the king unless the a-pawn is removed first. As long as the rook stays on the 6th row, the king can't capture the a-pawn. And sacrificing our queen for either of those pawns instantly loses the game for us.

Well, if we can't use the king or queen or c pawn to get rid of the b pawn, what else could we use? You've got three choices left and two aren't really an option.

[Thok]

That part was arguing against Kd3, not c4. Pushing c4 is pretty much geared at forcing Black to trade the b-pawn, since doing anything else wins White the game.

Yes. I'm pointing out what you are missing in the argument for Kd3; there's a way we can get rid of the b pawn without using the c pawn, but we can't do it with the king on d4 (and there's a clear best square for the king to be on once you follow that line of logic.)

[Thok]

I'm pretty sure I want to play Qf5+, but I'm going to take a quick look at Qb7 anyway. No other move is worth our time.

Also, I'm going to be V/LA June 6-9. I likely won't be able to post at all for that period; if I do it will be at night June 7 or the afternoon/night of June 8.

[Thok]

SK, if you saw Rd6 coming from a mile away, you should've said something....

Everybody should have seen Rd6 coming from a mile away. But it's mostly a short term annoyance and doesn't really have much of an effect on our long range plans.

However since it wouldn't have changed our plans, there wasn't a reason to tell Black what his best move was.

move Qf5+

(still thinking about Qb7, but I don't want draw to be close to the leading bandwagon.)

Move Count
Qf5+ (3) (SaintKerrigan, Abstract Actuary, Thok)
draw (1) (veerus)

[Thok]

Veerus, if you want to be replaced then we'll all start advertising for your replacement in our signatures.

We won't hold it against you if you ask to be replaced. We will hold it against you if you continue to be a participant in this game but refuse to play.

[Thok]

I agree with Qf5+, it looks safe.
@Thok: are you

still thinking about Qb7

?

Somewhat, but I've decided it allows Black's king a little too much freedom while limiting the mobility of our queen. It has certain advantages, but not enough to justify it over a Qf5+ move that has more support.

Which is a thousand times more than 4 other people in this game are doing.

Five really, as I'd put you ahead of Indigo Heron as well in terms of amount of participation.

EmpTyger probably needs a replacement, given how long he's gone without posting on the site. Everybody else has at least posted in the last couple of game days, although if Haylen volunteered to be replaced I wouldn't have a problem with that either.

[Thok]

I would prefer a queen check, simply because that will give us an extra tempo.

I'm trying to decide between Qh5+ and Qh7+. The real advantage of Qh5+ isn't that it defends our pawns directly on that move (black can fairly easily chase the white queen from h5 in a few moves if he wants to), but that it restricts the movement of black's king.

[Thok]

I'm not seeing how Qh5+ wins us a tempo. Qh5+, Rg6, and then what? We have to move our queen off the edge of the board to have her do anything, so we don't really have a tempo.

After Rg6, Kc2, continuing our queenside plans. That puts us farther along then what happens after Qe4.

[Thok]

8 people have posted? 5 people have voted? Nobody is voting draw? What is this weirdness?

(I kid mostly. I also haven't decided between e4 and h5; I realized that I missed a benefit e4 gives us, although I'm not sure how valuable it is.)

[Thok]

Is this a Mr. Black claim?

He made the same post in Left 4 Dead Mafia and Of Gods and Men Mafia (both are in theme park), neither of which he is modding. The modding probably refers to Mini 981 (although he used a different way of phrasing that comment in that game.)

[Thok]

This is a reminder that I'm going to be V/LA from Sunday until Wednesday. I will probably not be posting at all during that time.

[Thok]

I'm back from my trip (well I made a quick look at the thread last night, but decided to get some sleep before I posted.)

Kc2 looks good to me.

[Thok]

Why are there no votes for Kc2, then? Some other move intriguing your minds? Do tell...

The lack of a vote comes from a lack of sleep and catching up mostly.

move Kc2

Move Count
(4) Kc2: SaintKerrigan , veerus, Abstract Actuary, Thok

[Thok]

I am still here and playing. The first post should be altered to have a correct version of the board; in particular, White doesn't have a rook on e1.

Kb3 and a4 are both feasible now. I'm not sure which is better.

[Thok]

a4 is bad still.

move:Kb3

Since I'm not sure you realize this, a4 bxa4 Qxa4+ is what makes a4 playable now as opposed to last turn. Kb3 may be better anyways, but it requires some thought.

People need to post, just to let us know they are still around after the move. If we've been knocked down to 5 or less people, we might as well abandon the game and I don't want to do that.

[Thok]

I am still here.

Four people have yet to post since the server move. All of Indigo Heron/Haylen/PsudoNym have visited the site since the server move (as seen from their profile). The latter two have posted elsewhere on the site.

EmpTyger hasn't posted on the site since April 8.

Finally

move: a4

Move Count

(3) a4: Abstract Actuary, SaintKerrigan, Thok

[Thok]

First, I'm going to be V/LA for the fourth of July Weekend (from about two hours from this post until late June 5.)

Second my preference is axb5. Trading those two pawns in this position helps us.

[Thok]

I lean towards Kb3. My ultimate goal remains connected passed pawns on the c and d file.

Fair enough, but it's not like we can force black to play bxa4.

I guess the real difference between axb5 and Kb3 is that the latter keeps pressure up on the queen side.

[Thok]

For some reason this game has grinded to a halt again.

I assume the reason was the holiday weekend.

[Thok]

Feh. Still here. I'm mostly OK with just letting the deadline hit at this point.

[Thok]

I'm pondering axb5 and Qd4. I'm leaning towards Qd4 at the moment. I'm sure I've missed something obvious, however.

[Thok]

Why Qd4? I cant see what you're seeing.

It centralizes the White Queen a bit more, while threatening the Black rook.

[Thok]

Move: Qd4

just so that somebody is voting for something.

But really, where is everybody?

[Thok]

After axb5 axb5, then Qa7 looks decently strong; our queen can attack weak points in blacks defense faster than black can rectify them.

a5 is pointless.

[Thok]

Try changing white's move 33 from e1e2 to R1e2 and see if that works.

[Thok]

Whoa, I just realized that clicking on the notation shows the corresponding move. SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!

Once you've clicked on a move, left and right arrows allow you to go through the game one move at a time; up and down go to the beginning and end of the game.

[Thok]

If we're taking requests, can we get the letters and numbers put back around the outside of the board?

Ok, I do see some value to axb5 axb5, Qc5, but from what I can tell it doesn't actually win a pawn, but it does give us connected passed pawns. But it is at the expense of a passed pawn for black. I think that would put the game into a bit of a rat race between the passed pawns and their king is positioned a lot better than ours.

axb5 axb5 Qc5 Rg6 Qxb5 Rxg4 Qb6+ K-moves Qxh6 and that black passed pawn isn't an issue. (If not Rxg4, then we have time to protect everything.)

[Thok]

Move: axb5

Move Count (4):

axb5 (SaintKerrigan, veerus, Abstract Actuary, Thok)

[Thok]

I'm in the process of moving, which means I will be knocked off the internet for some amount of time around August 15th. (This will probably be only one day, but it may be a bit more.)

Move Qc5

as discussed yesterday.

[Thok]

My cable company slightly lied to me (they claimed I needed to return to end my service, when I didn't), so I can post this morning. I'll be offline later today(certainly by 1, maybe a bit earlier), and hopefully back online tonight or tomorrow.

Move Qxb5

, as previously discussed.

Move Count

(2) Qxb5: Thok, SaintKerrigan

[Thok]

My internet access is officially restored.

[Thok]

move: Qb6+

Move Count

Qb6+ (4): (Abstract Actuary, SaintKerrigan, Herodotus, Thok)

[Thok]

I'm disappointed that we didn't last quite long enough to set the biggest newbie record (we'd need 6 pages of discussion to do that, which would be excessive).

That said, I can understand black resigning now, the next move by white was going to hurt black hard (and despite what veerus might have said, QxP wasn't the correct move.)

[Thok]

I don't think we could win their rook by force, but they would have had to play it perfectly to avoid it.

After Ke8 (on any other move Qe6+ wins the rook), Qe6 threatens both QxR and d6 (the latter move winning black's bishop for a pawn) and black can't deal with both threats. I think the worst case scenario for us after that ends up being a K+Q+P vs K+R endgame.

There might be a line of play that wins the rook, but I'm already happy with the line I've posted.