Mini 954 ~ Mafia at the 11th Hour (Game Over!)

[Percy]

Wow, sorry everyone, I forgot to add this to my WT *facepalm*

I will catch up ASAP.

[Percy]

Vote: Percy

Wanna fight?

Fuck yes!

Vote: VP Baltar

It sure is taking you a long time to read a three-paged thread!

I was at work when I posted this, then there was RL, then there were half-written posts for two other games I'm in that I finished up. I'm up to speed now.

Put 'em up, VP. Let's do this.

[Percy]

Tony told me in super secret code that he wants to be run up to L-1 so he can find out what his secret power is and I think we should oblige him.

Why do you think there is merit in voting him on these grounds?

[Percy]

I like this post and this wagon:

Unvote, Vote: Porkens

I think DDD's "vote for TM, maybe he'll get abilities!" took all the pressure out of the wagon, and Porkens jumped on for no other reason than the one DDD proposed. I think it was a scummy move (and a poor reason to put anyone at L-1).

I mainly don't like this because generally, one views everyone as town, then suspects as scum, not everyone as scum, and those who redeem themselves as town.

Going to have to disagree with you here. Everyone else has a better chance of being scum than I do, so I try to see everyone as scum unless I have been given reason not to. Guilty until proven innocent.
(Which is to say, I kinda agree with you about dramonic, but for different reasons; however, this gets too close to playstyle criticism for it to be a good scumtell for me.)

[Percy]

Yes. What Percy did is exactly what I have a tendency toward doing as scum: posting "Oh, I'll catch up!" and then not actually catching up until I get prodded again. If you want, I could give about five or six examples where I do this as scum.

I welcome you to search my meta for a single example of this kind of behaviour from me (hint: there isn't one). My activity is pretty constant in every game I play; one post every one (or at worst two) days, or I announce my V/LA.

I don't see how Seraphim came to the conclusion that Tony has a power that unlocks at L-1, or that Porkens would want the wagon to stop at L-1.

I presume speculation along these lines comes from reading the mod notes from the sample PM in the OP.

But the way I see it is that everyone specifically has a larger chance of being town than scum.

Sure, you're

mathematically

correct, but I play best when I assume the worst in everyone

So do you prescribe to the school that Porkens was trying to give TM a power and then take him out?

I'll let Porkens answer that first (to avoid the "oh I wasn't doing [what Percy said], I was doing [some other excuse]!" crap), but that is a possible scum angle I'm working with.

DDD, how serious IS your TM vote? Still like him now that the wagon's been deflated?

I'd like to emphasize that I think DDD himself (intentionally or otherwise) deflated the wagon by making it about mechanics rather than scumhunting.

Good points from d3x on Nikanor. I think it boils down to "more concerned about posting rather than posts", and his case on Seraphim is all spin.

@Mod

: Red text ftw.

[Percy]

I will probably join you on your Awesome Wagon, but I want Porkens to account for his vote first.

[Percy]

I really did want to give Tony his power, but that was before dramonic danced on the fence and thereby put his neck out.

If you are concerned about Tony's power, why don't you volunteer to be run up to L-1 yourself? Why haven't you tried to formulate some sort of plan that involves putting people at L-1? Why weren't you concerned that you may be giving scum extra power (if TM is scum)? Why would you want to give anyone the kind of power as mentioned in the OP?

The "I wanted to give him his power" is an excuse for a weaksauce vote, not a genuine plan to try and help the town.

Also, your read on dramonic is very low-commitment. I'd like you to better explain your scumread on dramonic, as well as answer the questions put to you.

This post by d3x is pretty compelling evidence that Nik is abusing his meta.

Anyway, the point is not that I do that exclusively as scum. The point is that I do that as scum five times more often than I do as town.

Have you checked any of my games to confirm your suspicions as to whether this is how I play?
(The point is that your vote was lazy, and you continue to be lazy when it comes to this point)
(Also, you are clearly aware of your meta, and may be trying to say "I'm posting, so I'm not scum!", or at least suggesting it)

My case is not spin. My case is mighty fine, if you ask me. Why do you think it is spin?

It is spin, but I'm not going to go into a detailed critique of your case against him; I'll wait for Seraphim to post his thoughts, and then I'll post mine.

I mean, being a few pages in and calling out lurking on someone who says "I'll post as soon as possible" without knowing the person (because Percy does that ALL THE TIME in my experience) is pretty poor scumhunting, imo.

It's true. Quality > Quantity.

The Porkens wagon feels better right now, though Nik is still my #2. Let's go DA TUU IN A

LULEELURAH

PORKENS WAGON!

[Percy]

Guys, it's a Luleelurah. It's the best means of transport if you want to go da tuu.
(There is a link to the reference above the pic. Educate yourselves!)

I'd hammer you with relish for your last post.

You'd hammer me, but not vote me?

My reason for voting TM was transparent and straight-forward.

He was the closest to L-1, so I went for the easy road. Soon after that, I said I'd be fine with being at L-1 myself. So...

Anyways.

I've already explained why this is scumreasoning, and you've just confirmed it, which is great.

See, this is your TM vote post:

Let's give tony his power:

unvote, Vote: TonyMontana

...and

less than seven hours later

:

am I already voting for dramonic?

unvote; Vote: Dramonic

only way to be sure.

Humour me and explain how your transparent and straight-forward reasoning led you to move your vote from TM to dramonic

before

TM was at L-1.

[Percy]

No Seraphim is annoying. I think a back-and-forth between Nik and Seraphim would clear up some of my muddy reads.

I'm very ambivalent about Nikanor. I don't like being white-knighted, and at least some of the case has developed because of this (as DDD correctly pointed out).

Porkens' votes have all been really poor; his TM vote, his dramonic vote, and now his Nikanor vote. My wagon is small, but it is mighty.

[Percy]

silly questions in 151. Meta defence in 151. 151 in general. OMGUS too

1. Call them "silly" if you like, but it doesn't change the fact that

you can't answer them

.
2. The vote on me was about Nikanor's meta. I was pointing out that mine and his are not the same.
aaaaand that leaves OMGUS.

Re: Gammagooey's self vote, it is pretty weird. Suggestions to test out the mechanics at 25%? A far-fetched plan to shoot lurkers? Blerg. The exchange between VP and gamma on page nine feels very strongly like town on town, though.

I usually see ASAP as "right now," and I always have. The point I've been trying to make this whole time is that

not following up on promises to post

is scummy, rather than that Percy was scummy for lurking, because I wouldn't classify not posting for ten hours as lurking.

See, I can almost see your point. That is, if your vote was half-hearted and RVS-like. The fact that you have defended and inflated this "tell" is what is scummy.

I prefer overzealous pushing of weak scumtells to standing back and waiting in the RVS.

I can see that you're trying to make this about playstyle, about pro-actively leading the town out of the RVS. I'm not convinced, especially when you change gear into "I'm lazy lol" later on in your post.

And I see that at this point Seraphim is still not posting. Promises a catch-up post, and doesn't deliver.

You do have a point here.
... but then you vote VP Baltar!

VP is coasting scum pushing the easy Nikwagon. He doesn't add anything new to what others say against me.

I see this post (which adds to your wagon) and then

you

stop posting until your latest post. Attempting to attribute this to a failure on VP's part reeks of scum.

Also,

I don't see the case on VP yet, but I'm interested to see how VP responds and if Nik elaborates. We've still got time to get a competing wagon going, but I'm not sure if this is it. And I do see reasoning from VP, though not in his vote post obviously.

You don't see the case on VP (and in fact imply you disagree), but you're commenting on the viability of a wagon? This is fluff and fence-sitting.

I still think Porkens is scum, but I will be voting Nikanor come deadline.

Still waiting on Seraphim.

Hi semi!

[Percy]

Seraphim/Cobalt is likely town, given Nikanor's attempts to get a wagon on Seraphim going. d3x as well, for his push on Nik.

As for the rest, re-reading.

[Percy]

A one (briefly 2)-person wagon created by flailing scum gives the wagonee town cred?

Sure. I think flailing and bussing is much rarer than flailing and attacking a lurker-townie.

I noticed something:

I don't get why Tony thinks that DDD is scum and vice-versa. DDD, could you summarize the reasons for why Tony is scum?

This is from his penultimate pre-lynch post. What I find interesting is that he says he doesn't understand why either suspects the other, but only asks DDD why he thinks Tony is scum, and not what Tony thinks of DDD.

@semioldguy

: What is your read on DDD?

[Percy]

Posting before prod.

I am very ill. I don't have the brain to do mafia right now, but I hope to be better by Sunday at the latest.

Apologies all.

[Percy]

VPB vs. Jahudo:
I think Jahudo taking the quote about lurker-voting completely out of context is what sticks out for me the most. Jahudo continues to insist that it means what he wanted it to mean, but it is quite clear to me from the context of the quote that he liked his vote on Nik,

especially

since Nik had called lurking a scumtell and then proceeded to lurk. The only reason lurking was being discussed was due to DDD's appeal to VP Baltar to vote dramonic for lurking.

It's also things like this:

There are times when town needs to play things close to their chest for the greater good.

I agree. Maybe we were both doing this yesterday.

@everybody else: Are Jahudo-VP Baltar wall cases hurting your ability to join the discussion? Or no affect?

...that feel like scumlanguage; an attempt to identify with the townie you're attacking, and excusing people for not reading what you and VP Baltar have written is the scum spin, and it feels compelling to me.
However, this is just as weird:

Also, people who are not Jahudo and I should also be scumhunting. Just saying.

It seems to me that he admits that Jahudo is scumhunting (not that scum don't pretend to scumhunt, but that's beside the point).

Nice catch, Pom. It may be a scumslip, in that it reads almost like an admission that Jahudo's case has merit.

Overall, I'm coming down on the VP side of the argument, however. Need to think some more when I'm not on quite so much codeine.

semioldguy/TonyMontana:
TonyMontana's vote on d3x looks bad in light of Nik's flip. Aside from that, it seems like he was in "attack DDD" mode before being replaced.
I don't have anything to say about his vote on me, because he hasn't said anything worth replying to.

I can wipe the vote clean. At such a time that I do this, I will get to choose one person in the game and his vote will be the only vote to count for the day, essentially allowing that player to choose who the lynch is on his own.

Can you choose yourself?
Do you have to be at L-1 to use it?

@DDD

: What is your read on Pomegranate? You seem to isolate some interaction with Nikanor here but never follow up on it.

Interested in hearing from Gamma and Cobalt.

And basically I didn't see his Porkens case because I've argued that Porkens' desire to lynch whoever is probably something he'd say as town. Percy might disagree with that meta, or just not be aware of it and not trust it.

I am not aware of Porkens' meta. So Jahudo is saying that Porkens is playing to his town meta, but VP Baltar is saying he is explicitly not:

@ Porkens - You've really been a bit of a non-entity this game, which is not what I'm really used to from you. Normally I see you as a leader, even if that leadership is chaotic at times. Are you not feeling motivated to play this game?

...so I have no idea who to believe, and I don't feel like doing the research right now (but I will tomorrow). At the moment, my opinion of Porkens is largely unchanged.

-I am actually interested in seeing what semioldguy comes up with,
-I want to hear from Cobalt and Gamma,
-And do some research on Porkens,
-And think more about Jahudo/VP,

...so I'm not going to vote semioldguy at the moment, but I am declaring my intention to hammer in the future. For the moment, I'll

Vote: Jahudo

for the sake of a competing wagon (Jahudo understands).

[Percy]

Percy, what do you think about SOG's play? Is there anything he's said/done that looks scummy?

1. He was one of the more strident opponents of the Nikanor lynch yesterday,
2. He never said why (just that he didn't "feel it"),
3. His response to my question about his read on DDD is weak, given that DDD has been pushing for a lynch on his slot for pretty much the entire game,
4. His vote on me has never been elaborated upon; he calls for others to do the case construction for him.

...that feel like scumlanguage; an attempt to identify with the townie you're attacking,

Or I was realizing a similarity in what we were both trying to accomplish.

...so do you actually think VP Baltar is/was town playing something close to his chest?
(The point is, identifying a similarity in your goals with someone else is kinda weird when you're voting for them).

Scum spin, what do you mean?

I mean "reading this as if Jahudo is scum, the interpretation is...", which is to say that there is a town spin, but the scum interpretation makes more sense to me.

that's moot now that the discussion is on SOG and the approaching deadline.

It is? Nobody told me...

Still haven't gotten around to a Porkens meta-analysis.

Also, as far as we know Nikanor didn't get a power at L-1, or any detectable powers at all, correct?

[Percy]

So let me get this straight, semioldguy.

I'm scum because when the Nikanor wagon was at L-5, I put Porkens at L-5, and maintained my vote there while following up with questions for Porkens, all the while contributing to the Nikanor wagon with analysis, suspicion and questions (even if not with my vote)...

...but your outright opposition to the Nikanor wagon (with reasons you insist are real but didn't and won't now state) while you had

your own vote on Porkens

, doesn't mean you're scum?

Is that really your case against me?
Explain to me how this attack on me is not pathetically weak, but also how it doesn't invalidate your entire defence.

Also, you're continuing to insist that there isn't a case against you personally, but we both know that's bullshit. You have ignored this post of mine, where I lay it out in a nice, numbered list.

Also also, if you took the time to explain why you didn't like a Nikanor lynch, then maybe the case against you would be more detailed. But the fact is that your unwillingness to comply here doesn't make the case against you weaker, it just makes your defence weaker.

I'm hammering semioldguy in 24 hours unless someone can conjure up a terribly compelling reason for me not to.

As for Porkens, I agree with VP that he does seem to be more active in other games. I still like Porkens as scum, as the meta-analysis hasn't changed my read.

@VP Baltar

: Can you explain to me how you make sense of Nikanor's case on Seraphim being a bus?

[Percy]

Hmmm.

I've completely lost my read on the situation and am consumed with 11th hour cold feet, so to speak. I need to think about this situation some more.

But we've gained at least two days, and SOG's ability is in the hands of someone I trust. Therefore:

I would like everyone to state who they think I should vote for, and why. If you think I'm most likely to be scum, go ahead and tell me why anyway.

[Percy]

Wait a second.

Vi's original VC (which has now been edited away) explicitly stated that nobody had gained their L-1 powers due to the kingmaker ability being used.

Yes, it has to do with my last-shot power. And I guess anyone who would have gotten a power at L-1 have gotten theirs too.

I am really confused. The VC being edited suggests to me that nobody was ever at L-1 today except SOG, and even if we all were until Jahudo got a power, Vi's statement still gives me pause. So how does Jahudo get his L-1 power?

We also haven't seen any effect from Nikanor's power.

I am very suspicious of this turn of events.

[Percy]

Just to be clear, Jahudo; you received your innate passive ability that allows you to not be affected by SOG's use of the kingmaker ability because you were put at L-1 by said ability?

The reason I'm skeptical is because of what Vi said in the original vote count, which was that the kingmaker ability didn't activate any L-1 powers, even though everyone was technically at L-1.

[Percy]

I only assumed it activated because I was at L-1 because I noticed the L-1 wording in the vote count.

The vote count that has since been edited explicitly stated that no-one got L-1 powers as a result. This has now been mod-confirmed.

You also said you sent the mod a clarification PM *after* the original vote count was posted.

When exactly did you get your power? Are you saying your innate ability just coincidentally activated when I was made king?

Same question

@DDD

too.

I'll put my

wild speculation

thoughts on the table;
Nikanor, either at L-1 or after death, got a power that allowed him to give a boost to someone in the form of a passive ability. He chose his scumbuddy Jahudo. Now that the existence of the ability has become public knowledge, Jahudo is claiming that semioldguy's ability caused it. However, it has now been mod confirmed that this is not the case.

@Mod: Was everyone at L-1 at any point today, even instantaneously?

[Percy]

Are your conclusions from 442 that Porkens is more likely scum, and Seraphim/Cobalt less likely scum, given Nikanor interaction? I can't see a solid conclusion in there, but that's what I took from it at least.

You're saying that your passive ability is

IF

a desperation ability causes you to lose your vote

THEN

instead you don't

...which obviously would be a different ability from your 11th hour power, as this ability would be useless to someone at L-1 under "normal" circumstances.

Hmm.

I haven't reached the conclusion as to whether your power is scum given vs. a townie power; however, the fact that Nikanor's power still hasn't emerged, and because this power seems pretty specific *and* not an 11th hour power, I'm withholding judgement. I'm going to go take a long walk and think about this some more.

@Jahudo

: What do you think of the case against SOG?

@Porkens

: Who should I vote, and why?

@Cobalt

: Who should I vote, and why?

@Pomegranate

: Who should I vote, and why?

@dramonic

: Who should I vote, and why?

[Percy]

Facts:

-Jahudo had the power before the VC was posted; that is why Jahudo's name was in black rather than grey. (Whether he was aware of this is a different story.)
-Vi made a moderation error.
-I am not a true king.

Jahudo says:

-Vi informed him that this passive ability had been activated one hour after she posted the VC.
-He (erroneously) assumed that this is because he was put at L-1.
-He sent Vi a clarification PM, saying "hey, doesn't that mean there are two votes in play etc.?"

I'm having great difficulty making heads or tails of this. Ze walk, it does nussing. I'm getting too bogged down in this, and I don't think I have enough information to decide one way or the other. Unless someone else can shed some light on what is going on, I'm going to ignore the "why" and concentrate on the "what should I do now".

Got my power a couple hours after Nik hit L-1.

OK, that at least establishes a possible precedent of players getting powers when

other

players hit L-1.

I'm going to stop talking now and let others start convincing we good, bad and ugly why we shouldn't execute them.

[Percy]

The fact that SOG USED his ability and wasn't lying about it. gives him town points in my book.

I've thought about this, and I think it's a null tell. I can imagine both town and scum using this ability. I can imagine both town and scum giving it to the person who declared an intention to hammer them. It was both interesting and confusing that SOG picked me to be king, but I think drawing the conclusion that he's more likely town is erroneous.

@Percy444- Why did you ask those specific players their thoughts?

They are the players I have either ambivalent or weak reads on who I think should talk more.

lol, something about the image of Percy by a lake side skipping stones and thinking about mafia strikes me as hilarious.

I wish I had a lake! The image you want is me sitting in a park near the Opera House, headphones in, eating these awesome chips you can get from a place near there

Why off Earth can I not live someplace cool like this v.v
On the other hand I don't have to endure Vegemite here.~ ~Vi

I'm pretty sure its my 11th hour ability because I wasn't told about it until it came about. That's how the power is described in the OP.

You were never at L-1, as far as I've been able to make out. Also, I don't buy that your 11th hour power is immunity from someone else's 11th hour power.

I doubt he'd explain how it would work for scum.

This is a better weak towntell for SOG than simply using his ability, though it is weak.

Really want to hear from Cobalt. And dramonic, to a lesser extent.

[Percy]

Well, I'm not that jazzed about Cobalt because he's clearly been phoning in his play and there's nothing in his ISO or Seraphim's ISO that makes me think he's town. However, I have suspicions about Jahudo and I think my SOG case is pretty good too, and this seems like a compromise lurker-lynch that really just comes down to chance as to whether Cobalt is scum.

I need to go back and look at actual cases that people have put against Cobalt.

Cobalt had 1 vote (VP Baltar's) when SOG was put at L-1. Now the support for the SOG wagon has dried up completely and Cobalt seems like the easy lynch that scum may have managed to inveigle.

I want to hear from Cobalt. I want to know if he gets his L-1 ability. I want to re-read the people who went from "SOG IS SCUM" to "LET'S LYNCH COBALT". I'm nowhere near ready to commit my vote, so I'll start my re-read now.

Also,

@Mod:

Vegimite is teh

GREATEST

and I will not have anyone slander this delicious foodstuff. C'mon, it's

EXTRACTED FROM YEAST HOW AWESOME IS THAT

Can I make fun of those lamb tongues in jelly, or is that more of a New Zealand thing? ~Vi

[Percy]

I'm of course down for SOG, but I'm also pretty good with Cobalt on the block.

Personally while I could still abide by a SOG lynch, I think I might have even more affinity for killing Cobalt for sheer uselessness.

All kidding aside, Cobalt does seem like a fair option.

(He had previously stated his support for the SOG wagon)
Jahudo is where things get interesting. In post 296, he is "leaning Town" on Cobalt; he contines this rhetoric in post 393. He can "see the possibility" of Cobalt-scum in post 452, and makes a half-hearted appeal to meta. Now Cobalt is his "top pick" because he makes the read in post 468 that it is actually a good distancing move for Nik to attack Seraphim.
This complete about-face, as well as his very weak approach to SOG (check his ISO for a strong opinion on the leading wagon for today pre-king; you won't find one) make me very reluctant to vote Cobalt.

Pomegranate's stance on Cobalt is that he's a lurker, and that's about it. I assume Porkens feels similarly.
VP seems rather ambivalent about all the lynches today, but I assume that Cobalt remains his top pick.

SOG doesn't understand the case on Cobalt, and I'm with him there.

My willingness to vote Cobalt is very low. I think it's a lazy case and unless there's no other option I won't be voting Cobalt. If I do and Cobalt flips scum, then I think Jahudo is the most likely scumbuddy.

My top three are currently Jahudo, semioldguy and Porkens, for reasons I have stated elsewhere. I'm not going to let this day be a NL, but without Cobalt or DDD, and Jahudo's vote on Cobalt, we're at an impasse.

---

Can I make fun of those lamb tongues in jelly, or is that more of a New Zealand thing? ~Vi

Definitely NZ. If you want to make an Australian really angry, ask them if they want "another shrimp on the barbie".
(No-one in Australia says "shrimp". We say "prawn". The line was changed because they knew no-one in the US would know what a "prawn" was. We're still pretty raw about it.)

Was that "raw" a food pun, or another regionalism?

Also, Americans only know "prawn" as how you say "pr0n".

"Prawn" is one of those words that may make sense when read but none at all when said. "Queue" is similar.
Also, I'm told it's even easier to upset an Aussie by reflexively addressing them with "G'day, mate" or with any reference to Crocodile Dundee/Crocodile Hunter.

Now if only I knew any non-Americans/Asians IRL I could put some of this advice to good use <.< ~Vi

[Percy]

Ninja'd by mod vote count. 6%. We lost 8% yesterday, when I assumed we had at least 48 hours left.


Fuck.

DDD? Cobalt? Anything to add in these last 20 hours or so?

[Percy]

I don't mind a SOG lynch, but I prefer Cobalt and some people I think are town seem to prefer him too.

Does this include VP Baltar?

@Percy: What about my Cobalt case doesn't add up? Besides my participation, what is wrong with the tell?

What tell? The fact that he's lurking, and apparently that's something he does as scum? Is that the tell? Or are you talking about how Nik's attack on Seraphim is somehow a bussing move?

[Percy]

Also my doubts about Porkens include his "willingness to lynch anyone day 1" is not an alignment tell.

Not an alignment tell ≠ towntell. How could a nulltell give you doubts? What do you think about the rest of his play?

And SOG was against Nik at a time it made more sense for him to bus.

Again you dismiss the case based on WIFOM. This verges on "2scum4scum".

@DDD

: Case material against SOG can be found

here

and

here

.
Case material against Jahudo can be found

at the top of this post

and

here

, and I have serious misgivings about Jahudo getting an 11th hour power.
As for Porkens, it's his D1 play, especially surrounding the Tony wagon, along with his complete uselessness today.

[Percy]

Just woke up.

Vote: semioldguy

.

Better than a Cobalt lynch imo.

Where was DDD?

Blergh.

[Percy]

Shrimp and Prawn are'nt the same thing, so the terms really ought not to be interchanged, FWIW.

Thank you. I am obscenely excited that someone else knows this.

@Percy and Porkens, have the two of you ever played in a game together before?

Tangentially. I was in

MafiaSSK's subgame

of the MtG Parallel Universe mafia, and Porkens was in

Forbiddanlight's subgame

. I was NKed N1 as well. My experience with Porkens is very limited.

DDD, you've managed to be off the scum-lynch and on the town-near-lynch without giving me scum vibes. You've been focused on Tony/SOG since about page 1. Now that the Tony/SOG playerslot is gone, who is scum?

DDD is dead...

I like the Porkens wagon.

Vote: Porkens

.

My number two at the moment is Jahudo. Also, if Porkens is lynched and flips scum, I find a Jahudo-Porkens team more than plausible.

[Percy]

Posting from phone:

My home computer has died. **howls in rage**

Lang Zi says: Home computer is not so different from a computer home. ~Vi

I can still post from work during my lunch break, but I will be

LA

for the next few days while I get the problem sorted.

[Percy]

@Percy- Why do you specifically like Pork for Scum?

He has been conveniently adapting the suspicion other people have created to push whatever wagon has the most support. First Tony, then Nik, then SOG, then Cobalt. The only time he's jumped on a wagon that wasn't already developed was when he

jumped off the Nikanor wagon when Nikanor was at L-1 and voted for Seraphim/Cobalt

, who had only one vote on him at the time - Nikanor's. Sure, he jumped back on to hammer Nik, but I read the jumping off as a last-ditch attempt to save his scumbuddy. Nikanor/Porkens makes a bucketload more sense than Nikanor/Cobalt.

Also, read his attitude towards SOG in ISO yesterday and compare it to how "horrified" he is that SOG was lynched. He's decrying the wagon he spent a lot of time building.

Pom was blatantly coasting yesterday and I'd like to see some real effort today.

This. Pom is next on my re-read list.

Killing the guy who GAVE AWAY his power and USED it in a protown way was the dumbest thing to do.

I've already been over why it was a nulltell at the time. I had declared my intention to hammer SOG in 24 hours. Using the power (when the mod has said that certain powers were assigned independent of alignment) to make me king didn't point one way or the other. If you can tell me why without appealing to hindsight, that would be great.

Percy pushed it because cobalt was the OBVIOUS lynch.

There are so many things wrong with this I don't even.

I don't care two shits abou tany lurker fight.

What is a "lurker fight"?

Sorry. I shouldn't post hungry. EBWOQ

Your quote changed nothing...?

[Percy]

Porkens has taken credit for hammering scum and for not (ultimately) supporting a lynch of town. As for the first, VP Baltar said it better than I did:

You were on the strong wagon and then got off! That's the point.

@Porkens

: If you hated D1 and just wanted to get it over with and who even cares who gets lynched let's just have a night I take no responsibility for my D1 voting etc. etc. then why did you leave the Nikanor wagon to vote for the person Nikanor was voting for when Nikanor was at L-1? No answer?

...and as for the second: I had spent a lot of time thinking about SOG-scum before he activated his power. I was willing to hammer him. SOG's kingmaker ability could have been assigned independent of alignment. Using that ability was a nulltell. The fact that you are continuing to put most of the blame for the SOG mislynch on me makes me think you are more likely scum.

You also said that your vote on SOG wasn't for scum, but was for "motivation". I'd like some clarification about what exactly you were motivating him to do.

Also, no L-1 power? I take it you didn't get vig, since you haven't shot me. I know why you think I'm scum, but your reason (singular) is craplogic.

Hero (Cobalt/Sera) is downgraded as a suspect now that we know DDD and Tony are both town.

Hmmm. I agree that the Hero/Cobalt/Sera slot is town, and I came to that conclusion before the DDD and Tony/SOG flips. I think Jahudo's reasoning makes the read more solid. My read on Jahudo is becoming more murky.

As for the Pom wagon, I am feeling it. Especially given her play yesterday and the fact that she's only posted to defend herself today.

This thread needs moar d3x. The fact that he was a big part of the Nikanor lynching gives him top billing as town, but I want to hear more.

[Percy]

I continue to have limited access. Here's a quick post. More soon.

Who did Nikanor vote for? I forget. I like to wagon hop.

Lynch plz.

Right, I could have been bussing, but is that really the strongest thing y'all have to go on? That I COULD HAVE been bussing?

Porkens: Hey, here are the things that make me town!
Jahudo: They're not towntells.
Porkens: Then since there is no case against me, I must be town!
Double

I agree that the Hero/Cobalt/Sera slot is town

Why?

The Nikanor push against him is hard to reconcile as a bussing or distancing move.

I came to that conclusion before the DDD and Tony/SOG flips

Can you point to where this happened?

Sure.

Porkens still #1. Jahudo is probably #2 still... Need to re-read him.

[Percy]

Checking in, will have a proper catch-up post done soon, my new computer arrives today!

[Percy]

IMO, lurking and then not being replaced is a scumtell, but flaking or requesting replacement is just an issue of being unable to continue due to real life.

There was a lot of talk about this in Gonzo mafia; turns out that replacing out can be a sign of scum, but I'd only really believe it if someone ragequit after someone made a case against them.

for what reason other than general wagoneering?

Look, Porkens has been doing a lot of dismissing and oversimplifying the case against him, so I'm going to tap out why I think Porkens is scum.

1. I didn't like his D1 play. I know people are willing to discount this on a meta basis, and I do see some merit in that. However,
2. There was some weird Porkens voting shenanigans going on which I noted earlier. Note here that he is voting for the TM slot there, then votes dramonic, then jumps on and off the Nikanor wagon before jumping back on again.
3. His turn-around today with regards to SOG feels like scum capitalising on a mislynch.

However, my scumread of Porkens isn't as strong as it used to be.

@VP Baltar

: What do you think of Trumpet of Doom? I can see you didn't like Pom, but why should I join you on your wagon?

For the record, Trumpet reads gut town to me. I like his case against Jahudo; I also think Jahudo is scummy. In particular, I think Cobalt was town, and with me saying that I was unwilling to hammer Cobalt, it makes a lot of sense for scum-Jahudo to switch his vote from Cobalt to semioldguy when I had to come in and do the hammering. Looking back on that switch, it seems very poorly reasoned to me, and makes more sense as a scum move trying to secure a townie mislynch.

He also backed out of the Hero suspicion (despite declaring Porkens and Hero scum early on today via PoE) by using the same ideas I had earlier, but somehow strengthened due to the townflips. I don't follow the reasoning well enough to see why it's a compelling point today, but wasn't like that yesterday.

Finally, his "willingness to compromise" on a ToD lynch also feels like a scum move. This is kinda like his "competing wagon" comments about VP Baltar earlier in the game. Jahudo feels far more like scum playing the town than like town doing honest scumhunting.

Unvote, Vote: Jahudo

.

[Percy]

Um no. As I recall you were unwilling to switch so I had to compromise so we wouldn't get a no lynch. And we don't know that Cobalt/Hero is town, though I'd bet he is town.

@Jahudo

: Let's start with the "compromise" situation. You vote Cobalt thusly:

We can still discuss the lynch, but I want to see that my vote counts. Cobalt's my top pick today.

Vote: Cobalt

Then you comment on the SOG lynch and talk about why you still think Cobalt is scum:

I don't mind a SOG lynch, but I prefer Cobalt and some people I think are town seem to prefer him too. The reason I didn't talk about him more was that the wagon was well in hand and I was speaking my mind about VPB. I explained why I thought SOG was scum, and I didn't have anything else to ask him.

Cobalt and Porkens reads went hand in hand, and I flipped them after mulling over how Nikanor might have been playing yesterday. I like my basis of thinking now more than I did previously.

So Porkens town, Cobalt scum was how it flipped around in your head.
Now here is the post where you vote SOG:

Not an alignment tell ≠ towntell. How could a nulltell give you doubts? What do you think about the rest of his play?

I haven't been able to read him, so I have a nulltell and a neutral read on him without looking at Nik. And I don't think you have made a case for him outside what I call a nulltell.

Again you dismiss the case based on WIFOM. This verges on "2scum4scum".

I'm not sure what that second part means, but maybe that's accurate. Tony looked scummy, and there are clear doubts about why SOG didn't elaborate on the Nik wagon beyond a simple "I'm not feeling it".

unvote;
Vote: semioldguy

Now the important things to note:
1. Your vote on SOG seems extremely weak, especially since your vote was so crucial. You quote me, and despite admittedly not understanding half of it, you use that reason to vote him. Especially when you (theoretically) could have convinced DDD in the remaining time of the viability of the Cobalt wagon, especially given he had

said how badly

he wanted to kill Cobalt.
2. Today, your reads on Cobalt/Porkens have flipped

again

. This was somehow due to SOG flipping town, but I still don't understand why you didn't even discuss this possibility yesterday. Porkens becomes your

top suspect

at the start of the day due to this Nikanor wagon interaction, despite your

discussion without conclusion

along the same lines before backing up to "he is not a good lynch for these reasons" in

this post

the previous day. You dismissed the Nikanor interaction as null!

Where did you have the same ideas?

I already linked to them in reply to d3x. I said very early on that I thought the Cobalt slot was town due to the Nikanor interaction.

SOG and DDD were still alive yesterday. I thought Nikanor might've been buddying Tony to DDD (or less likely DDD to Tony). Once I knew both were town, it was clear he was waiting for the loser to emerge and become the mislynch.

Let's look at what you said:

Hero (Cobalt/Sera) is downgraded as a suspect now that we know DDD and Tony are both town. I think Nik was just waiting to see if Tony would be lynched without his support. So when Nikanor voted Seraphim for throwing suspicion on DDD and bandwagoning Tony, it now looks like he was hoping to setup Seraphim as the scum presence on the Tony mislynch.

The most important thing to note is that the Tony wagon was already dead. Seraphim wasn't even voting for Tony anymore. Your read of the situation makes no sense at all.

---

[T]he way people just pushed [Porkens' wagon] and then went quiet bothers me a bit. Too much complacency for such vast support of it.

On the other hand, why are you open to another lynch suddenly Percy? You've been pushing Porkens pretty hard all day without much care elsewhere. Was it just ToD's case that changed your heart (even though you do still say Porkens is scum and there is wagon support there)?

For the first part, I agree. I pushed hard, but Porkens seems like a player that is very difficult to lynch... My read has somewhat weakened, and I would like to hear more from Porkens, though I still maintain my points against him.

I've had my doubts about Jahudo for a long time. Firstly

when I point out

the "competing wagon" shenanigans with you,

the hole in his case against you

, in the same post where he uses meta to excuse Porkens which he also does

later

, I've also been

suspicious of his passive power

that he got somehow (though it didn't activate as a result of him getting to L-1), I

explained how unsettled I was

at Jahudo's scumread of Cobalt, and though the rhetoric about clearing Cobalt

initially threw me off

, it makes no sense as I've explained in this post.

To say I haven't had much care about the Jahudo slot is false. We should lynch Jahudo today.

[Percy]

Yeah, I'm as surprised as you are. Considering Jahudo has only ever placed me at #4 on his scumlist, besides this gem from today:

I think its likeliest that 2 of {Percy, Hero and Porkens} are scum, and my gut right now says Percy is town

... and now he's abandoning his wagon on you because his lynch is looking like a viability and instead attacking me. I'm now much more sure of my scumread of Jahudo.

That's called compromising with someone who wouldn't give any leeway. I was making sure there wasn't a no lynch. Seems like you would twist this around either way and call it scummy.

You miss my point. Not only was DDD available to you, who had expressed a willingness to kill Cobalt; but you also switch to SOG for no other reason than to secure his lynch, rather than trying to make a case against him or any other suspect at that crucial time.

SOG and DDD. If one of them was scum, he wouldn't have been very at ease in thinking either way it turned there would be a mislynch. Having them both be town changes the dynamic of how he was treating other people, like Seraphim. So it had everything to do with the townflips and its amazing how you don't acknowledge how that might be possible.

I find it amazing that you ignored one of the most crucial points from my post - that the wagon was already dead, so your interpretation makes no sense.

I was initially overlooking the obvious with Nikanor's suspicion of Porkens. There are no 3rd party roles, so he was obviously not trying to get Porkens mislynched. It was a distancing ruse all along and I initially fell for it. You either missed my turnaround or neglected to mention it.

I don't understand why you conclude that it was distancing, rather than some good old-fashioned mudslinging. I also don't understand why, if your read is so strong, you are now voting for me, the person Porkens has been voting all day. He's done everything short of jumping through my screen and cutting off my head. Now you abandon the wagon on Porkens and join him in wagonning me? LOLWUT

Percy has repeatedly ignored entire posts from me where I explain my changes of opinion. He doesn't acknowledged any of my stances, just the speculative outcomes. He's not investigating me.

I haven't ignored anything; I've found your explanations lacking and have strong suspicions that they are scum rationalisations. I acknowledge your stances. I just think they're lacking. Given the fact that I have spent a good deal of the game discussing your play and asking for clarifications, concluding that I'm not investigating you is ludicrous.

[Percy]

Re-reading the game over the weekend.

No Lynch is almost certainly what we should be doing today.

[Percy]

Well that's interesting.

Does anyone town want to own up to this, or should I assume a scum or a vengeful (understandably but sadly misguided) townie is responsible?

[Percy]

I need to reread Percy and d3x at some point, but unless I suddenly discover something really scummy that Percy did, NL is by far the best of the feasible lynch options

Why did you choose to mention me at that juncture?
That is, why were you presenting me as the alternative to NL?

---

OK, so dead people are a valid target for lynching, and they have a QT. I think the loss of gray in the Vote Count must mean something, but I can't puzzle out what. I'm also curious as to why there were two VP Baltar votes.

Hello, ghost people. Another ouija for you (before you start making your suspicions clear - at least one of you thinks I'm scum it seems...):
Regarding your lynching, let us know if:
-A lynch of you is a good thing (Vote Jahudo)
-A lynch of you is a bad thing (Vote Gammagooey)
-You don't know what a lynch of you would do (Vote d3x)
It seems that being able to lynch them must do something, and I'd like to know if the ghosts know what's going on.

---

@VP Baltar

: I give you a gun, and you have to shoot either ToD or Porkens. Who do you shoot, and why?

---

I still like Porkens best for scum. I think d3x is doing some good scumhunting, and would like to hear more from Porkens about his reactionary position here.

[Percy]

I requested it for information purposes. It was determine if they could only vote in Mylo or not.

Thanks, missed that.

The reason I ask is that I think d3x and Herodotus are both town. I think Porkens is scum, and I'm tossing up whether VP or ToD is the more likely candidate for the second scum. At the moment, I'm undecided. The only person who has done serious VP attacking was Jahudo, and I still think VP came out better in that exchange, but something is bothering me about VP's Porkens-interaction. My scum sense is tingling, but I'm going to sleep on it before I say anything definitive.

[Percy]

-To answer your next question - blue means in the lead for votes, assuming that player is a valid target for lynching.

I took this to mean that DDD was blue in the VC because he's a valid player for lynch, whilst the option with the same (?) amount of votes that was not a player (no lynch) was in red. We haven't had blue in a VC before afaics.

Now how many times have you seen red in a vote count? And how many of those times was it in reference to someone who could definitely be lynched? ~Vi

@Mod

: Can we lynch ghosts?
(Don't worry ghosties, we won't lynch you unless you tell us it's a good idea)

... ~Vi

@Everyone: If you're town, you shouldn't be stating your opinions or asking for other living players' opinons unless/until we decide that we will lynch today. Normal procedure during a normal MyLo is to No Lynch with zero discussion.

Really? Well I'm not going to waste an entire day. We have ghosts, and I have lines of inquiry I'd like to pursue. I think "prove you're town by saying nothing bad about anyone and ending the day ASAP" is not the towniest attitude I can imagine.

Can you link to a game where this has happened to you before?

Also, I'm glad you think my question is good, and I acknowledged how a ghost had already voted me

as a suspect

, but I would like the questions answered before people start voting for suspicions. It could take a while for all the ghosts to tell us their main suspect, but the first ghost that sees my question can answer it, then we can resume scheduled programming, etc.

[Percy]

If you have lines of inquiry to pursue among the living, why not pursue them tomorrow, after the scum have already made their night 4 kill choice, rather than before?

OK, I see your point.

Vote: No Lynch

[Percy]

Why am I getting more votes...?

If you are

one hundred percent certain

that I'm scum, then you are

one hundred percent wrong

.

Please answer Hero's questions; if you really are serious about lynching me, then put a vote on Jahudo. Then I'll have to come up with a defence to a silent case, which will be an interesting challenge

[Percy]

Well I think Hero and d3x are both town, so by PoE that leaves VP Baltar and Porkens.

Going to re-read and present my case. I'm guessing I'll have to defend myself at the same time. I participated in two townie mislynches, it's true, but they both

did

deserve it.

Porkens-scum is pretty obvious to me, but I'm going to have to re-read VP Baltar and confirm my town reads of d3x and Hero.

[Percy]

The only time Porkens has done anything resembling scumhunting in this game was his early case against Seraphim. I haven't been able to find any significant development of this case since then.

The only other time he's mentioned case building has been this post where he essentially says that if he built a case, it would make him look scummy. Other than that, it's been all-out defense and wagon jumping.

I've detailed many points against him over the course of the game; they're in my ISO if anyone is curious. I think Porkens should be the lynch for today. His L-1 power may re-activate (no-one, afaics, has been run up to L-1 twice so far), and what would mean everyone who is not Porkens would need to vote for him.

VP reads town. d3x reads town. Essentially, they both were early, driving forces behind the Nikanor lynch on D1. Now VP was on early, jumped off and jumped back on, so perhaps the Nikanor wagon was distancing + pandora's box - once it got to lynch-level suspicions, he had to jump back on. But his case construction reads far more genuine than that.

Add to that his exchange with Jahudo - I feel that, given Jahudo's flip, that this is town on town. Add to that again that he hammered NL after the Jahudo vote, which was saying:

If you think we should lynch a living player today, please put some votes on Jahudo (or you could just run that player up if you are certain about them, but if that was the case then I assume you would already have done it.)

...means he gave up the opportunity to possibly have me lynched yesterday, which would have cost the town the game.

That leaves Hero, but the Porkens/Hero interaction is a hard sell as distancing. It's the only conclusion I can sensibly come to, though. But that contradicts my rather strong read of the slot being town, so I just have no fucking idea.

I'm swimming in town reads, except for Porkens. Porkenscum is the only thing I have that resembles certainty right now.

Vote: Porkens

[Percy]

I have no idea what is going on.

5.

I'm dead. Can I still post?

No, with one exception. A recently decased player may make a "bah" post consisting of the letter 'N' followed by as many lowercase 'o's as you prefer. Nothing else is acceptable.

Could be a bah post from Nik, but (1) that's stretching "recently" to ridiculous lengths, and (2) DTMaster shouldn't be posting, and as I said, Porkens may require another vote to lynch, so just generally what the fucking hell I don't even.

@VP Baltar

: I have never been in LyLo. My Herodotus-slot read comes from both the Nikanor interaction as well as the Porkens interaction.

I'll type out something more detailed if it isn't gg, but the top of this is worth looking at on this issue for now.

[Percy]

So it's VP and Percy?!?

I'm not scum.

[Percy]

EBWOP: I have never been in MyLo, as far as I can recall. Been in LyLo plenty of times.

[Percy]

@d3x

: Agreed.

(I call bullshit on DTMaster, though. Vi would not, I believe, tell him the game is over without telling us.)

Also, Porkens being the last scum doesn't make sense, as we are in LyLo. I can't see how that works with Porkens the last scum unless there is some serious modbastardry going on.

Shutting up now.

[Percy]

Well this was a very disappointing game for me. Well done scum, VP Baltar and Herodotus both did excellently. They were the last people I thought would be scum, given all the hints I was pulling out of the Nikanor reaction. Looks like my Pandora's box theory was correct. So congrats to the scumteam.

When I was king, I had a post hammering Cobalt in preview mode for a long, long time. I outthought myself on that one, and the same goes for both Jahudo and Porkens. My confidence has taken a rather sharp dive.

I'm glad, at least, that I wasn't killed by the ghosts. From the way they were voting, I thought one of them must have had an erroneous 11th hour guilty on me.

As for why there was no massclaim, the only powers I saw were 11th hour powers, really. I expected all the scum to say what I would have said - I have no idea what power I have, I'm a VT as far as I can see.

Finally, I'm upset at the players who posted after the game was over before the mod. Don't do that to moderators, guys; revealing everything after the game is super fun, and spoiling it is lame.

But that said, thanks very much to Vi for modding the game; the setup was swingy but really fun to play through.