/in-vitational 7 - Save Cow's Mind! (after 1014)

[Netopalis]

/Confirming a role PM for this awesome player list.

Shoutouts to.....
Cuttlefish - It's...not been that long, actually!
DeathRowKitty - It's been a while! Great to see you!
dramonic - Haven't played with you in a while, but I've read a lot of your posts. Good times. Hopefully, it'll end up better than the last game we played together.
Faraday - We seem to keep bumping into each other...Not that that's a bad thing.
Haylen - Gosh, we haven't played since...Newbie 873, the Newbie that Would Never End? We need to play together more often.
KittyMo - Glad to see you, as always!
Netopalis - Best player on the site, bar none.
SFG - I don't think we've played together, but you have an interesting avatar.
TheLonging - Hey, I think I replaced you once?
UncertainKitten - I'm talking to you now on AIM, so I guess there's no point in me writing anything special here.
xRECKONERx - Hey, Reck. Again, hope that this goes better than our last game together....That...that didn't end well.
Ythill - We really need to talk more, as I've always enjoyed our philosophy discussions.

Obviously, I'm pretty excited for this game.

[Netopalis]

Afraid it's a bit premature. Let's do it afterwards. Hopefully with a Best Town Play award too.

[Netopalis]

Ahem. Since we're still in confirmation, I'm going to try a little experiment.


I shall try to use my gut to figure out who the scum is!

*a shocked silence falls over the crowd*

The scum in this game are.....

MITH, YTHAN, POROCHAZ AND THE POPE!

*checks the player list*

Well, crap. There goes that idea. Random questions will come once everybody's confirmed.

[Netopalis]

Oh, of course it's neither the content of the questions nor the content of the answers that help - it's all about the discussion. I still think it's much more favorable to talk about something more concrete than it is to blindly vote for people until somebody cracks or slips, especially in this group.

[Netopalis]

Uh...I was killed off in Last Will....

[Netopalis]

Oh, I see. I thought that you meant that I had to flake. Sorry!

[Netopalis]

Ok, now that I've got some time to dig up some links....


1. Please provide me with a sample of your town and scum metas.
Town:
Hellsing Mafia

Scum:
A Newbie Game

2. Do you prefer town-hunting or scum-hunting? It's all the same, really. I look at each individual player in a game to determine how I feel about them rather than looking for players of a specific alignment. I find that this can sometimes lead me to look at players that I would have otherwise ignored.

4. Which of the following are scumtells: lurking, lying, being annoying, off-topic discussion, voting without immediately giving reasons?
Lurking: It depends. If the person is otherwise present, then yes, it can be a scumtell.
Lying: Very much so. The mafia have to lie as a necessary part of their role - as such, any lies should be closely scrutinized
Being Annoying: I can't really make a blanket statement on this one. It can be?
Off-Topic Discussion: Not really. I've never understood why this one has caught on other than a vague attempt to limit off-topic discussion in games.
Voting without giving reasons: Yes. Anyone who's played with me knows that I

hate

this. Voting without giving a reason deprives the town of important information. It's also indicative of scum because scum can say that they have a reason, vote, then come up with it later after they see how the person reacts. It's a way for the mafia to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.

Overall, though, I don't really subscribe to the "tells" school of scumhunting that much, honestly. I prefer to look at motives. Every post is made for a reason - look for that reason and you'll find the players' alignment.

8. Do you think you should out your town reads? Usually, I think that town/scum lists are very productive. If the mafia is made up of decent players (Which I assume it is here, since the whole player list is made up of decent players), then they should know who the town does or doesn't suspect. It doesn't really give the mafia any information. When I've been Mafia, I've never gone back to look at town/scum lists to try to figure out who to kill - I've just went with the player that made the most sense to me.

On the flipside, they can be extremely helpful to the town by narrowing the town's focus and giving more information about where a player's thoughts are lying. Since Mafia is a game of information, and since more information generally helps the town (with the exception of certain power-role related issues), I tend to support these lists.

16. Are there any days or times of day we should not expect you to be posting on a regular basis? Yes.

...

.....

Guessing you wanted a bit more than that. I'll be away for part of the week of August 1 and for almost all of Labor Day weekend (Dragon*Con ahoy!)

[Netopalis]

I find that scum often do it.

[Netopalis]

First impressions (Very light reads, subject to extreme changes quickly):
Cuttlefish - Based on what little I saw from his 2 posts, his bluntness leads me to expect that he is town at this point. I think that Cuttlescum would have been a bit more reluctant to potentially annoy people (by not answering the questions, bringing up my worst game on the site and policy voting Ythill).
DeathRowKitty - DRK's later answering of the questions is extremely odd to me. It does make me think that he could be scum, but I'd like to hear his explanation before going further with that.
dramonic - Not enough posts.
Faraday - Lightly scummy. I don't like his obfuscating response to TheLonging. I understand what he was trying to say, but it looks to me as if he was trying to be intentionally vague so as to be able to back out of it later if he needs to. On the whole, he's been one of the more productive players, though, which is why I only put him at a light scum read.
Haylen - Haylen confuses me a bit. She seems to be a lot less Haylen-esque in this game. Perhaps it's where I haven't played with her in a few months, but I'm thinking that she may be intentionally dialing herself down in order to avoid early suspicion. Another light scum read.
KittyMo - A bit of a manufactured tell against Dramonic there. Technically, at that point, the game hadn't started - why was the confirm post scummy? Also, there's a whole lot of posts out there without a lot of substance behind them. Take, for example, her post about being confused by the Faraday-Ythill-TL exchange - she never really elaborated on why, but she did feel the need to get that out there.
SFG - I don't really like the excuses as to why particular posts don't count. That seems like she's going out of her way to explain herself, as if she was getting too nervous after Ythill's question.
TheLonging - TL is one of the more probing and thoughtful players right now, and he seems to be putting genuine effort into the game. Town read.
UncertainKitten - Very limited information, but from the posts that we do have, I'd say a light town read, mainly because she hasn't said anything suspicious.
xRECKONERx - I like the fact that Reck called out KittyMo on the confirmation post scumtell. Town read.
Ythill - Very engaged, very active and very mindful. I'd say probably town at this point.

Vote: KittyMo

[Netopalis]

Oh, and while I'm at it, a question to each player:

Cuttlefish: Why do you feel that voting without reasoning is a useful tactic?
DeathRowKitty: Why did you proceed to answer the questions and include a buddying message to SFG?
Haylen: Would you say that your playstyle has changed dramatically since our last game or no?
KittyMo: Do you consider the tell you used against Dramonic to be a valid one? What exactly confused you about the discussion you mentioned?
SFG: Do you think you are nervous? Why?
Dramonic, Faraday, TheLonging, UK, Reck, Ythill: Who do you suspect right now and why?

[Netopalis]

Haylen: Would you say that your playstyle has changed dramatically since our last game or no?

I haven't completed a non-Newbie game since early April. I'm still in IC mod - basically, I control myself a lot more in newbie games than I used to in non-newbie games. I have more control over my actions in a way. Is that what you meant by 'dialing down'?

That could be it. Like I said, it's been a while since I've played with you, so your style may have evolved too.

KittyMo: That was just a mental note? You put down a vote on it and called it a scumtell. I'm not really sure that I buy that explanation.

Ythill: I should have rephrased that. Let's try it again.

Who do you suspect

most

right now, and

why?

Why do you feel that scum tend to confirm later? Yes, KittyMo pointed to one game, but she's only played one game with Dramonic, and it could be a variety of things...Job scheduling, time zone differences, some things that would probably belong more in Guys, Pt. 2....

[Netopalis]

Ythill:
Ok, that actually does make a bit of sense, but based on the posts that he made, Dramonic logged off last night at 8:43 PM. Role PMs were sent starting at 9:38 PM last night. He came back today at 9:33 AM and stayed on for about 16 minutes. He also appears to be in multiple games, but he didn't post in any of them between the time that he logged off and his confirmation. Thus, I really can't say that this was an intentional stalling tactic.

Fair enough with the DRK suspicion.

SFG:
Breathe. Seriously. It's just a game.

[Netopalis]

@Reck: Night start > in-thread confirm phase > RQS > RVS. Why are you ignoring our best source of info?

We had a night start?

Wow, I hadn't noticed this earlier. I'm with Reck on this one. I wasn't aware that we had a night start....

FOS: Ythill

Do you think he was referring to a mafia QT? He seems to be rather concerned with them...

[Netopalis]

KM is correct, and I think it's obvious if you look at the context. Night start > in-thread confirm in general.

Neto was pretty quick to jump to conclusions there. I hope he won't be that rash as a lawyer.

Heh. There's a time to jump on a statement and a time to sit back. Admittedly, I was wrong here. But, you never really know sometimes until you jump on it.

[Netopalis]

An FOS serves as a placeholder for a later vote that could change based on the following responses. The responses changed my mind, though. You make a good point about KittyMo, though, so I'll jump to my next suspect.

Unvote, vote: DRK

I don't really feel that I can support a role name mass claim at this point.

[Netopalis]

...Really, Faraday? He blatantly accuses you of just following him, and you

still

do it?

Unvote, vote: Faraday

[Netopalis]

Nikanor, let's hear some reasoning.

Some more defensiveness from SFG. I'm starting to notice a pattern.

Unvote, vote: SFG

I think that this is a

slightly

better vote than my one for Faraday, although I still feel that there's a reasonable suspicion against Faraday.

[Netopalis]

It's not that I think that you shouldn't have stopped posting about it, SFG, it's the

way

that you stopped posting about it. It's also the fact that you felt that you had to post it in the first place.

[Netopalis]

Unvote

I'm not really sure how I feel about the timing of the softclaim, but it's been made, so I'll back off for now.

[Netopalis]

Because I'm a bit concerned that her nervousness may be due to her power role.

[Netopalis]

Yeah, backing off after a softclaim is really scummy. *rolls eyes*

Seriously, though, Ythill, you don't even find it the slightest bit suspicious that Faraday's been doing nothing but follow? That's not really his style.

[Netopalis]

Faraday: I was worried about her nervous activity, and she provided a valid reason for her nervousness. I don't see that there's a problem.

[Netopalis]

Why are you so intent on lynching Reck again?

[Netopalis]

UK has been away at a convention - I know because I'm covering for her in the game she's modding.

[Netopalis]

Hey. I'm back - sorry - I've been moving. I'll post tonight.

[Netopalis]

Also....

Nameclaim: Mafiascum.net

[Netopalis]

Alright, thoughts....

1) Luckily, the mass nameclaim doesn't seem to give too much away about our power roles. I also don't get how it helped. But, no harm, no problem, I guess. I'm still wary of those who supported it.

2) SFG's bit about Haylen/Kitty/Cuttle/DRK explains a lot in my mind. I've thought that 4/5 of them were acting a bit oddly this game, and this could be a part of the problem, as it appears that we have a quasi-neighborhood. This greatly concerns me.

3) Dramonic worries me. It seems as if he is intentionally playing on the fact that we're lax to policy lynch. It seems as if he almost goes out of his way to mention the fact that he hasn't read the game. Altogether, I think he's my new top suspect.

Vote: Dramonic

[Netopalis]

Just because I find the action of supporting the nameclaim to be scummy does not preclude me from finding Dramonic, who did not support it, to be scummy. Most of the players in support of the nameclaim do not yet warrant a vote, but I feel that it does add to the suspicion that I had against some of them. However, Dramonic's flaunting of the fact that he's not here seems to be much, much more pressing.

[Netopalis]

No. It does mean that we have some misguided townies. Townies can do scummy things and they still be scummy.

It's suspicious because there was really nothing to gain from it. Almost all of us have nameclaimed, and I can't say that we've found anything out. Had the role names been handled a bit differently, though, we could have very easily outed power roles.

[Netopalis]

Faraday: Although I believe that this whole flavor business is silly, I will note that the mod has discussed Telltale games with me before and is a fan.

Ythill: Not necessarily, for this presents a special case. Someone started this and urged others to do the same. Every lynch, there is a majority voting for someone, but some votes may be scummier than others. I need to reread the stuff about the massclaim again, though, to fully figure out what I think about it. I don't feel that there's a decent breaking strategy here, nor do I believe that "locking scum into their flavor" will be all that useful. I mean, it's not all that difficult to come up with a fakeclaim for any flavor that you're familiar with - I've done it a lot and I'm sure that everybody else here has done it as well.

[Netopalis]

Nah TheLonging is still scum so it doesn't matter.

Me and DRK are neighbors. The mod said to me that DRK may not be of the same alignment, thus I believe DRK to be scum. Do you believe I faked my name claim? Why would I do that? Telltale Games and Bioware are both companies that look at each others work, thus it makes perfect sense.

I really doubt that they look a lot at each others' work - they're very different companies.

[Netopalis]

Ugh. I've been terribly busy lately, folks, sorry. Reread and wall of text today.

[Netopalis]

Alrighty. I wasn't here, sorry about that, long story that you probably don't want to hear about. My thoughts are as follows:

It is becoming increasingly obvious to me, for reasons that I won't go into detail about unless it is necessary, that the following players are town:
UncertainKitten
SFG
KittyMo
xReckonerX
Cuttlefish

All 5 are playing fairly similar to their normal playstyles and their scumhunting seems to be genuine, despite my earlier suspicion of SFG and KittyMo.

The following players are likely town, but I have some reservations about each of them:
Ythill - While he seems pro-town, this could be a use of a common scum strategy to dominate the town. I also think that some of his attacks have been rather...oblique.
Haylen - As far as I can tell, Haylen is playing according to her meta and as she would play in this game as town. However, my biggest problem here is her Cuttlefish vote. For someone who knows Nikanor as well as she should, she should realize that this isn't really a scumtell for him.
TheLonging - Yes, the whole self-voting thing is troublesome. However, I feel that, for the most part, I have a town read on TheLonging. TL is nervous and a bit scatterbrained, but that strikes me more as TL's playstyle than it strikes me as a reaction to having a scum role.

My biggest suspects are as follows:
DeathRowKitty - DRK's Dramonic vote bothers me greatly. It seems like a manufactured reason to go against a scumbuddy. The fact that he later is pressed on this and admits that he really didn't want to explain it also seems to be very...bothersome. Finally, DRK's defense of TL could be an attempt to prevent a town-lynch that would focus suspicion on him the next day. I'm also not sure what I think about the difference between DRK claiming that they could talk pre-game but TL didn't respond vs. TL's statement that they couldn't talk pre-game. I have no idea why one of them would lie about this, but it does puzzle me.


Dramonic - Dramonic has posted oh-so-little of substance. Out of his 19 posts, only 1 or 2 are actually relevant. You simply can't post that much fluff unless you try. Also, his statement about not voting without a votecount looks very manufactured as an attempt to say something pro-town, even though it's something that everybody would be keeping an eye on.


Faraday - Faraday has seemed extremely wishy-washy to me for the whole day. Faraday is, from my experience, a cautioned and reasoned player. Why he's decided to basically spasm and jerk about the thread during this game stymies me. He's also posted a lot of totally irrelevant stuff that seems to imply that he's really not following all that well.



My strongest suspicion is DRK, and so I have to go with that.

Unvote, vote: DeathRowKitty

[Netopalis]

Indirect/deceptive. And I didn't put you in my list of top suspects - in fact, you're largely a town read. However, four things bother me:

1)Certain attacks you've made, specifically your "breaking strategy" and neighborhood analysis. If we were to lynch TL and he were scum, it is of course possible that DRK could also be scum - nothing is by any means confirmed and I feel that a 2 scum-neighbors would probably fit under the normal definitions - but, we're even playing a theme, so...yeah. You know this as well as I do, or at least you should.

2) The fact that

everybody

seems to be willing to go along with exactly what you say. That's not always a scumtell, but it is something to be cautious about. It's great if you're town, but you're a good player and could easily be scum.

3) Your stated opinion that a lot of vote-hopping is good while criticizing me for voting for both you and Dramonic is a bit...off. Yes, my reasons weren't that strong, but I do tend to be a bit looser with my votes when I have little to write about.

4) The fact that you have

immediately

tried to quash any suspicion of you in both of my large posts. It looks rather like you are attempting to avoid discussing the issue. Look at my post - you're certainly not one of the ones that I feel are the most scummiest - why did you feel the need to immediately jump on that rather than looking at what I posted about the people that I actually suspect the most?

I am, of course, not willing to act on any of these. I only mention them now because I feel that, if we end up with a lot of mislynches, we may want to look into you more seriously in the future.

[Netopalis]

Rereading today. Sorry about that!

As a quick word of explanation, I was a last minute addition to my school's Law Review, which meant that my 12-hour work week last week turned into a 90-hour one. Luckily, I have time now and will be catching up.