Mini 1036 - DEFCON Mafia - Over

[RedCoyote]

I so wanted to be in this game from the start, but I'm glad I got to replace in early. I'm actually in too many games at the moment, but this is easily the one I'm most interested in.

Unvote

in case big papa was voting. Just bear with me a little bit guys. I'm very much looking forward to playing with y'all, but I'm probably not going to really get going until Friday.

[RedCoyote]

Note

: I do not expect anyone to read my notes. I sum up my conclusions at the end of this post. If you care, however, how I've gotten to my conclusions, then you are welcome to do so. Replacements are a horrible, but necessary, solution to a rampant problem, so I try to make the transition as smooth as possible by just jumping in immediately. This post was delayed a bit because I'm in too many games, but it's current nonetheless. If you are in any ongoing games with me where I also may have replaced (you know who you are), that was a bit of a different situation where I crossreplaced into a game where I otherwise would not have. Naturally I'm approaching that game a little differently.

Anyways, I typed these notes up as I read through the game, and they're just rough reactions as to what's going on. Please skip to the conclusions at the end of my posts unless you want to read my recap of the game.

Notes as I read through the game

So I'm reading over the rules, and I've stopped at DEFCON 2. Why would the town want to go into DEFCON 2/1 (other than nuking)? Do the mafia not get a nightkill if we lynch before DEFCON 3? That's the way I'm reading it at least. Oh wait, I see, some of these abilities are downright tantalizing.

The night may be dark, but your radar screen is neon green. And it’s hard to miss stuff flashing in neon green.

XD

---

So I can't beat DEFCON in a 1 v. 1 against the computer. >_> lol

The thing you have to remember is kills give you two points, protecting your citizens only gives you one point.

---

It's true that the investigative abilities are important, but I think some uncertainty is a good thing too. If all townies pick Espionage, then scum automatically get their first pick of anything that's not Espionage. Like, say, a nuclear sub. I suggest people pick towards their playstyle and we leave it at that.

Although all the picking has been done for me, this is what I would've agreed with. NATO doesn't have the luxury of a secret, scheming, underground network (QT). Whatever is discussed will be plainly seen. Just go with what feels right and work with what you have.

---

I'm still undecided as to how to approach this.

12 players, 10 abilities, some of them completely useless to town/scum/both.

Still a toss up as to how I want to gamble. Which is why I just need a bit of clarification on how subsequent options are divided.

This is why this game is so awesome. Risk v.s. reward at its finest.

Although you continually bringing these negative, confusing theories to the forefront makes me nervous. It looks like everyone was pretty much settled on "going with the flow", as it were. You keep harking back to this idea that the town has a serious choice. I think everyone gets it. I see where you're coming from with the eliminating options idea, but I'm just not convinced that the town should be volunteering that much information out in the open.

On the other hand your post 64 is very well thought out, and, upon consideration, I actually agree with all of it.

---

I'm suspicious of Faraday - looks to me that he was trying to stifle the discussion without providing anything else to talk about (a'la Doombunny9's latest post).

I very much agree with this. I understand where he's coming from, but compared to a player like Doombunny, the difference is stark. One player is trying to just shutdown discussion, the other is engaging Enigma. There's a big difference here.

---

(No, the DEFCON level will continue to decrease numerically until it reaches DEFCON 1. The game will then remain in DEFCON 1 until a win condition is achieved. --AGM)

Oh, wow.

This makes sense now that I really think about it... but also we can get a lynch off before the scum even get a chance to kill, right? Or at least a traditional kill anyways (Stealth Bombers).

Hell, maybe we should get moving then.

---

Right now my (mild) pings are from Escoulta, Zhero and Hinduragi. I imagine the scum are talking a lot right now in their QTs to skirt around Espionage and try to balance their preference lists, so lurking and/or posting-for-the-sake-of-posting are mild scumtells for me, and they seem to fit the bill. Faraday almost does, but something about his attitude rubs me in my town places.

Very perceptive and most likely accurate. I would suspect the same thing, there are at least three different things to discuss that I can think of: General game strategies, scum/town/third party power selections, and covering themselves for the 10-30% QT drop rate.

---

I don't really agree with percy's lurker point, in practise. In theory it sounds like something scum would do but I know when I'm scum with daytalk it tends to get me to post slightly more than usual. I don't think it takes a lot of effort to keep up with a quicktopic and game thread either. Zhero agreeing with it being scummy is funny though.

It depends on the players on the scumteam. It's a good general way to approach the game though, I think.

---

I must say that I have a lot of doubts on the benefits of "scumhunting" while no votes are present, hence my relative silence. Hopefully the game will start soon.

In all seriousness though, I know it's pointless discussion but I really don't know how fruitful scumhunting will be until everyone gets a chance to put their vote where their mouth is.

:\

Y'all can speak for yourselves, I'm getting some good info here.

---

Well gee, if no one claims sub, even if they are lying through their teeth, THAT MEANS SCUM HAS A SUB.

I don't agree with this, or with Elscouta's absolutes.

Does a Vig claim on D1? This is effectively what we're asking here. I want to discuss this point more, because I don't like how everyone is just jumping at the chance to claim their sub status.

---

Doombunny, are you stupid? Seriously? Have you even made an effort to read and understand the game rules or do you just plan on being as clueless as you are for the entire game?

Why is stupidity a scumtell for you?

I think hes scummy for making rash judgments without taking the time to understand the game mechanics first.

Honestly, this sounds extremely forced to me. I think you jumped the gun and you don't want to back down.

---

holy shit, this sub speculation is like 400% absolutely fucking retarded. if scum have it they'll probably just fucking lie.

Thank you. This is exactly what I was thinking. It blew my mind that everyone was tripping over themselves to claim whether they had it or not. It's either fake activity or it's not thinking the game through well enough.

---

I'm even pondering a hunt to determine if scum have air base or another scum-like ability, because that would allow us to pseudo-clear people that

don't

have these abilities.

Stop. Please, just stop right there. This stinks to high heaven. I mean, how much more clearly does it need to be spelled out? I'd imagine people chose abilities to

keep

the scum from getting them just as often as they would to have it themselves. "Clearing" people by outing abilities is the silliest idea I've ever heard of. It's completely a lose/lose situation for the town. The scum will put on their best face because they can pretty it up in their QT, while the town is stuck feeding the scum information.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you or something, but this is, like, blantant rolefishing, imo.

---

For the scum/town reading the mechanics, it's mafia theory and you can't prove it and reasons for "scum are more likely to do this" are pure speculation. I have seen scum not read the topic and I have seen town not read the topic. It's not exactly a slight towntell at all if you ask me. I view it like the commonly debated issue of "is lurking a scumtell" in newbie games. This isn't related to scumhunting at all the way I see it and isn't justified as a reason to vote or not vote someone.

Agreed with this, but I didn't agree with your sub point. It's still missing the gigantic elephant in the room: why would the scum be honest about having the sub?

---

I'd gladly welcome someone dropping a nuke on Faraday.

I'll bet you would. He's the only one with enough balls to stand up against your, "everyone tell me your abilities" scheme. Has Comrade Stalin promised you a medal if you take this information to Moscow?

---

I'm saying I think if Andrius was scum he'd have been told by his scumbuddies that he could pick from more than one area for his list.

This is a good point, but Andrius could just as easily be faking all of this. He probably has the subs, after all.

---

Disagree with the entire post 188 of Doombunny's. Although most of it is on a theoretical basis. Percy's post 192 is like the anti-Doombunny post, so I naturally find myself agreeing with a lot of it.

---

Stupidity and ignorance are easy to feign regardless if you are scum or town.

I'm glad you pointed this out, it saves me from having to do so later.

---

@Enigma: 2 confirmed townies my ass. Andrius just didn't read the rules. It's very possible he could be scum who didn't talk about the missile silo/offensive/defensive thing in his QT because he thought it was obvious, hence why he would mention it in the thread. Faraday proved my own town theory wrong. Also, why are you looking at ISO's for breadcrumbing?

He was being sarcastic. This goes for Andrius/Faraday too, who I think misread Enigma's post just as you did. Read the entire post.

---

VOTE: HINDURAGI

THIS IS GOOD.

Why would scum want to confirm townies? Unless you think Andrius is a scumbuddy?

Also, where the hell have you been this game?

---

Also, welcome Red

*waves*

---

Hey guys, it's late and I have to go to bed, but please don't lynch anyone until I get the chance to post properly, kthx.

I've read enough. I'm giving you about 12 hours from now, give or take. I will end the day if no one else has/if the Elscouta wagon stays together.

---

In case you are waiting for a claim, don't expect anything from me, as I don't see any reason that a claim should influence a lynch in that setup.

Quite possibly the first rational thing you've said.

Actually, that's a little harsh, but, yeah, unless you claim to have a sub then I doubt it would make a difference.

---

The more I read Elscouta the more I think he's just poorly presenting his case.

[...]

There are roles I could see being less lynchable than others in this setup.

Love the fencesitting. You're not on the Elscouta wagon, but if you were I would go to town on this. It's still bad regardless though, because this is you basically saying, "If Elscouta is town I want town points and if he's scum I want to appear like I was being reasonable".

Let's scumscale it up,


[

Town

]------AV-Percy--Faraday-Hindu--Enigma--Andrius-[

∙

]--Spyrex--SP-Zhero----Elscouta------[

Scum

]

Nuts to the haters with their whining about giving town reads. We can have that tired old theory argument if you want, but you won't be changing my mind. Learn to live with it, because you're kidding yourself if you think other players can't put two and two together and figure out where you stand even though you're refusing to tell people who you think sounds townie.

I absolutely love how AV and Percy have been playing this game. Both of their playstyles connect to me well, and I feel like they've had important things to say. Neither of them has been afraid to make a move, and they're both currently making the right move. The only negative I've seen here is the sub situation, which I want to address now.

I'm just going to assume that it was Elscouta or someone else who posted early pulled a wool over everyone's eyes. Surely y'all must have done this without thinking it through very clearly. Faraday is seemingly the only person I've seen talking sense about subs in that it was a complete waste of time to sit around asking if anyone has them. Normally I would completely hold my ground to this position, but given how that Faraday and I are the only players left having not given and answer, I won't allow scum/misdirected townies to pigeonhole me into being scum because I didn't answer.

I did not get the subs.

This will be the only thing I will say about big Papa's ability choice, and I will treat any further questions about it this early in the game with the utmost suspicion. This is a good segue into my scumreads.

Given how early in the game we still are, neither SP nor Zhero are particularly huge scumreads. Both players, I've noticed, have been particularly absent from the game. Not in any large capacity, but their activity is such that they do not seem to have any real stake in anything. Both of their votes are on useless targets (but given that there is no real alternative wagon, it's probably arguable that all non-Elscouta votes are useless). SP makes some weird vote/comment in post 218 about Hindu, totally out of the blue and backwards. It would probably be worse, however, if he was actually here to talk about it some more, because it's steeped in useless WIFOM about whether or not Andrius is confirmed town. That entire discussion, although Faraday's original point seemed sincere, was driven into this strange WIFOMy discussion that was just beyond useless. SP seemed like he was trying to benefit from it more than anyone though. Zhero's inactivity is possibly worse that SP's given that I just cannot recall any major position he's actually taken so far. Most of the players have found their way into some argument (Elscouta v.s. Faraday, Doombunny v.s. Enigma, Andrius' alignment, sub talk, nuking, etc), but I think Zhero has, more than missed these discussions, actively ignored having a voice in them. His post 246 sticks out as some major fencesitting, although, to be fair, he isn't voting Elscouta.

Speaking of Elscouta, I think a lynch is in order here. Not even so much about his bickering with Faraday, you know, because I think that's just a bunch of theory argument. Anyone can say "X is a scumtell", and if they genuinely believe it, then that's what they're going to do. His interaction with Faraday has almost nothing to do with my scumread of him really. No, the two main reasons I'm scratching my chin with Elscouta are, one, Percy pointing out, and Elscouta admitting, that he didn't think DEFCON 4 discussion was advantageous, and two, his blantant rolefishing attempts in both the subhunt and his further attempts at wanting to fish for more information. Percy points out that the scum may be more quiet in DEFCON 4 as they attempt to strategize and plan their attack, given how complex this game can be in its early stages. Elscouta, in post 95, shoots this down, and further elaborates that there have been no benefits from DEFCON 4 "scumhunting". Later, in what I think is the worst post of the game, post 151, we have Elscouta hinting at the idea that those with an air base should possibly claim because it would pseudo-clear them. Not only is this just completely out of left field, it's a very thinly-veiled information grab. The subhunt was bad enough, but to talk about passive abilities as well? Forget it. It's time to take the pinko out to pasture.

Mod

, if the town gets a lynch off before DEFCON 2, will the Warsaw Pact have access to Stealth Bombers?

Depending on the answer to this question, I'm ready to see this lynch through. Percy wants to make a post, so I'll give him a few hours, but I think this lynch should go through before the weekend gets here.

(The DEFCON level decreases at the beginning of each day phase, so the town effectively has two lynches before the Stealth Bombers become active. --AGM)

[RedCoyote]

EBWOP: [

Town

]------AV-Percy--Faraday-Hindu--Enigma--Andrius-[

∙

]-Doombunny-Spyrex--SP-Zhero----Elscouta------[

Scum

]

[RedCoyote]

(The DEFCON level decreases at the beginning of each day phase, so the town effectively has two lynches before the Stealth Bombers become active. --AGM)

Hell yes. If Spyrex were here I would give him a high five (after checking to make sure he didn't have a bomb strapped to his chest).

Vote: Elscouta

[RedCoyote]

Usually I like to see more of a fight over two competing bandwagons, but I felt that Elscouta had seriously made a tactical error in his approach to the game (I'll try to get players to claim their powers and attack them if they refuse). I could totally see something like that in a scum QT. Although he was blunt about it, in retrospect, I guess, it was subtle in its own way. I was likely making a mountain out of a molehill, as Elscouta must've honestly thought that his ideas were productive for the town. It turns out we're just on fundamentally different sides of that issue.

Speaking of power talk,

There are alot of active abilities, and scum has to do a little guess work.

So yeah. Yesterday I was lazy. I coasted, I admit it. (Mainly due to higher-priority games wherein we tried to lynch Satan, etc.)

I realize I'm beating what's now a dead horse, but I really must say this is just silly. Andrius, you really must be more hush-hush here. As was stated, the scum very much have the ability to piece this game together 100 times better than the town can. There are three of them at this very second sitting in a room in Kiev analyzing the impact of your statement. They're cross-checking it with what they chose, Elscouta's reveal, and with what they suspect already in the game.

---

This is too long for the first post of the day, but I'm still excited to be in the game. The flavor is absolutely delicious.

I've got a great place to start with my vote. I'm still feeling a similar take on the game, despite Elscouta's flip, because I feel almost as though he was a separate entity. No one expressly came to his defense, nor did he really defend anyone that I recall (although I guess he wouldn't have needed to).

Vote: Zhero

for what I think was some overly careful play yesterday, exemplified beautifully in what I think was some clear fencesitting toward the end of the day. In contrast with Elscouta, who was very much in the limelight, I want to now push at one of the more quiet players.

[RedCoyote]

Stop making up reasons for why you prematurely hammered with only one week of real discussion.

This is a pretty harsh reaction, but I'm okay with that. Aggression is good.

The content is what concerns me, because I don't recall you sticking your neck out for Elscouta, or, hell, even for keeping the day going. As a matter of fact, I quite plainly remember you

ducking

a very direct question asked of you about Elscouta by Faraday. You didn't even attempt to clarify it, you just didn't respond. Instead you let your wishy-washy, "Elscouta's wagon seems rushed" be your position. Faraday was good to jump on you for it, because you sneakily address the wagon itself rather than Elscouta. What's more, you clearly knew he was at L-1 when you made a post 2 and a half hours after Faraday asked you to clarify.

Additionally, could you respond to this tactic I had brought up twice, please? If it weren't for this idea, I probably wouldn't have hammered, yet you don't give me credit for it.

---

Zhero's post 278 is an absolutely wonderful response. He spinkles some offense, a little defense, and a lot of thought to make a yummy townie post. So much so in fact (and I can't even remember the last time I've done this outside of, like, RVS) that I want to

unvote

for now.

---

If no one has claimed it, then someone is lying. And if someone is lying, when the time comes to claim, we can use the information we gained during DEFCON 4 to find out who.

I don't understand what you mean. Do you mean by process of elimination through flips?

Also I think your Doombunny case has merit, but I don't think the Andrius thing will go anywhere. Unless you can sell me on a reason why Andrius' mistakes/crumbing are more suspicious than they are overeagerness?

[RedCoyote]

Well, like I said, I think you focused too much on the voters rather than Elscouta's alignment. And I think even you can admit, whether you were right or wrong for doing so, you didn't put very much effort to stop the wagon from going through. You said that the day wasn't long enough, you know, and we should hear more from Elscouta, et cetera, kind of token phrases that just about any player can say at any time when a wagon starts to close in.

If you would've really dug in and said something like, "Guys, listen, Doombunny did this, this, and this. You need to look at Doombunny and at least argue with me before settling for Elscouta", I'd probably be willing to give you more credit. I'm not saying you were equivocal; I'm saying your position was weak. This hardly fits your character (from what I've read of you this game), and it surely doesn't give you a mandate to call me out for hammering, imo.

[RedCoyote]

Honestly I think what I posted in response to Faraday was reasonable. Surprised to me to see everyone completely ignored it and wouldn't stop for a second to consider other possibilities and continued to accuse him.

This is pretty defensive, and I don't think you're conceding enough to our (Percy, me, and Zhero) similar point of views on the subject. This, coupled with the major disconnect between you and I on the town getting it's lynch in before the mafia had their nightkill situated, really puts us at odds. I don't know if it's scummy yet, but I do suspect there will be friction between us for the foreseeable future.

---

Ok, follow me with this:

Vote: Andrius

Help, I'm already lost.

No, okay, I see where you're going. What worries me is were acting a little rashly on a player who has a history of being kind of overeager. I guess this devolves into more of a subjective thing. Maybe because I've just been burned on Elscouta, and that's influencing me somewhat. I'm more willing to write this off as short-sighted than I am to pursue it as an evil scheme. Am I wrong?

---

Andrius has the radar ability. Last night he tracked me. So obviously I have an active ability too.

Jeez, I miss one day and there are already covert paramilitary operations influx.

If this is the truth, and since it's coming straight from the horse's mouth I'm inclined to believe it, then now we have a bit of information. I don't know (actually I do know, it's not) if it's worth the cost of giving the scum this information, but at least we know now that Andrius and Enigma are in no way aligned together. It's probably likely at this point that one of them is scum, although Enigma's only sin was using the ability he choose at the beginning of the game, just as Andrius did.

It boggles my mind that Andrius would automatically assume a Radar result to be scum. I cannot think of any logical reason for pushing through with it other than just not thinking long-term. In other words, I tend to agree much more with your post 301.

---

What I mean is, if the person with the sub lies about what they got, we can see, through analysing who got what preference, whether or not their supposed ability fits in with everyone else. I.e. if they claim something as a "first choice" that someone else had been awarded despite it being their second choice, or vice versa, etc.

This is borderline, AV. Maybe later in the game, much later in the game, but you're talking about, essentially, posting your entire list of choices (up to and including the sub choice). This is exactly what I was harping on Elscouta for, because, although it would likely nail a confirmed scum, it would also paint a very vivid picture of the game for everyone.

---

Andrius has posted all over the site during the past 24 hours and I've seen him browsing this forum.
So I would assume he is purposely lurking.

If this is true, and I tend to assume these accusations are true for better or worse, then this makes Andrius look more suspicious than he otherwise would have to me.

Okay, y'all sold me. Town Andrius/Calcifer would be less inclined, I think, to be this sneaky. He'd want to ask for forgiveness if he thought he was in the wrong, or, contrarily, he would be pushing Enigma hard if he thought what he did was right. Either of these reactions would strike me as townie. Ignoring the problem, however, does not.

Vote: Calcifer

[RedCoyote]

Can you say overreaction? :\

[RedCoyote]

I don't see the disconnect and don't see why it's scummy.

Well, you're playing it very risky if you think mafia kills are more beneficial to us than not simply because of the terrorist state. I don't agree with that approach at all. I mean, I acknowledge it, and I guess it's a valid concern, but the odds are so slanted against your position that it's really coming off more as you trying to justify something after the fact.

---

Oh hai Redcoyote's massive wall of null/not-Town #249! I missed you~

*psst* ...don't tell Spyrex, I think he's still buying it.

(Hi, btw. )

---

Your role cannot possibly be the reasoning behind a four-person scumlist on Day 2.

This. Enigma is doing this "do as I say, not as I do" approach when it comes to power roles. He said earlier that his suspicions were coming partially from his night action, which is effectively exactly what Andrius did, and now he's getting defensive when Zhero calls him on it. I don't like it. Enigma should know, after berating Andrius so hard especially, that a power role is perfectly capable of bring their knowledge into the game without the need to qualify it with, "oh, yeah, it's role-based knowledge".

It would be different if he was being pressured into talking, but that isn't the case here. It's like he's not trying to get his hands dirty.

---

Now, I'm up to Enigma's complete overreaction and subsequent vote on Zhero for rolefishing, of all things. Oh god. This sloppy mess. This is a goddamned

sloppy uninteresting

mess, and I'm sick of reading about it.

This. This. This.

We're focusing far too much on these powers and not enough on actual scumhunting. This is letting players like Doombunny, Faraday, and Hindu kind of skirt by, and it's letting players like Spyrex completely lose sight of the bigger picture.

@

RedCoyote

: What's your read on the Hinduragi slot?

I really thought he had a strong first day, but he's been kind of absent from anything going on today. Well, it gives me another suspect at least.

Oh, wait, and I think I may be able to free up a vote. Calcifer seems a little more intent on clarification now, so I think I'll back off like Enigma did.

Unvote

;

vote: Hinduragi

[RedCoyote]

LOL. So I'm being voted...because I wasn't here?

Yeah. It's called active lurking, and you're a natural.

[RedCoyote]

Uh, Zhero?

Doombunny is probably right, but I still want to hear what Zhero has to say about this.

[RedCoyote]

The main thing is, Zhero doesn't really strike me as the type to be, like, absent-minded about something like that. I don't know him very well, but from what little I've seen of him this game he comes off as fairly intelligent. The "dropped" part, for me, is also a dead giveaway. Furthermore, I think if there was that much resentment going on in the QT, maybe we'd see someone really being put off by Zhero here in the thread.

I'm telling myself over and over again this is completely faked... but there's a little, itty, teeny, tiny sliver of doubt in the back of my head.

Anyways, moving on, I'm still happy with my vote, although I can't, in good conscience, defend Calcifer's "reaction testing". There's always a sprinkle of skepticism that I give with that explanation.

[RedCoyote]

I searched the entire post for a reason why RedCoyote thought Hindu had a "strong first day", but I couldn't find it. I thought, at the time, that his read on Hinduragi was very generous. Now, there's this complete change in read.

Essentially, it seems like it boils down to a lurker vote on a person Red used to have a townread of. This vote sticks out as very scummy to me.

Agreed with him in post 156 (except for the sub talk, which I noted, but I'm considering that null given that there probably aren't 10 scum in the game), agreed with his post 245 (I note this by proxy of Elscouta), agree with his voting of Elscouta, comfortable with his activity and general agression/high level of activity (check out page 7/8)... what's the problem here? Hindu has completely dropped off from this level, which is consistent with scum at times (changing playstyles for no rhyme or reason, usually in the form of activity or to get a lynch to go through).

I mean, I didn't except you to read my notes, but if you say that you did, you should've been able to understand all of these assumptions.

He didn't comment on Doombunny after my post, but he did comment on AV's case:

[...]

...so why is he voting Hinduragi again?

Sorry, only a little QT drop and very polarizing reaction (Calcifer's) has happened since. I'll willingly acknowledge that Doombunny is on my backburner, mostly because I think there are bigger, more pressing issues at the forefront here.

His dancing around the WIFOM issue regarding the dropped message doesn't make me feel better, either.

And your reaction is better? Come on, Percy.

[RedCoyote]

I won't let you get away with this. NOT BY A LONG SHOT.

Vote: SpyreX

I certainly don't like this reaction, and, frankly, I feel as though at this point Calcifer is doing whatever he can to shed votes off him and turn attention away from him. If I was in Calcifer's position, I would be annoyed by Spyrex's advances, but I have to think that I wouldn't let myself get this much out of sync. Calcifer is playing extremely reactionary, coupled with his earlier information broking, means I have to think something sinister is at play.

---

Spyre, don't nuke-threat anyone in here like that. It will bring up ALOT of wifom.

This is a prime example of why I'm voting you. Could you be any less relevant to the game? I understand catching up, you know, and I sympathize with that. But what is this? It's like some random, forced comment on something. It's a stark contrast to the Hinduragi of old.

What? You backed off Calcifer because he's clarifying something? I didn't see much clarification because the entire vote is still not explained. Why mention the "like Enigma did" part?

VV brought more substance to the game, I think (although I'm changing my opinion here again ). However, I unvoted him before the drop and before all these shenanigans with Spyrex. I mentioned "like Enigma did" because I felt that our reasons for dropping the vote were probably very similar.

Yup, "active lurking" vote. Nice one. Let's just ignore the fact that I may actually have stuff to do.

Prove me wrong. It's a judgment call on my part. Maybe you're busy, maybe you're letting Spyrex and Calcifer tear each other apart. Who's to say?

It is a fact, regardless, that this a completely different Hindu than the one that was playing D1. I will continue fight you and Percy on that point.

Pray tell, what did Doombunny do that gives him the pleasure of being on your backburner?

Posted. Responded to his attackers. Continued to attack. All good things.

---

Easy rectification would be!
Spy: OKAY CALCIFER FESS UP!
Calc: NO! NO NO NO NO NO!!
Spy: Okay! Sheesh! I stop now and prevent further damage!

NOT:

Spy: OKAY CALCIFER FESS UP!
Calc: NOO!!
Spy: FUCK YOUU WITH A GODAMN NUKE.

As comical as this may be, this reads nothing but tunnelled to me. For Spyrex to press you on having a night result that was, at one point, good enough to vote someone, and only later, when called out on it, wasn't, is absolutely logical play. For him to press you as hard as he is is a debatable move, but it tells me that he's serious. I think he smells something, and I, for one, don't blame him.

---

but my original point still stands - your original read on Hindu seemed to come out of the blue.

I still don't quite understand what expectations you're expecting me to adhere to, but I'm getting a vibe that you have some sort of perfectionist standard that you're applying directly to my reads on the game. I try to be as precise as possible with my reads, but mafia is very much an imperfect science. I gave Hindu a modest town read based on the things I've already told you. It was a D1 read with some 10 pages into the game. There have been serious, undeniable differences in his play since then.

Why was Doombunny on the backburner and not Hindu, or anyone else? You seem to be the player who, like me, likes to put a lot of thought into his voting, but this Hindu business rubs me the wrong way. And this is not the first time Doombunny has been out of your notice, you did leave him off your first scumscale...

The latter was an error in my typing. I had typed nearly that entire post up in one sitting, so that was just an oversight (I'm sure there are plenty more within that post). Doombunny has been making stuff happen, Hindu has been letting stuff happen. That's significant. I agree that we probably are both very careful with our votes, but perhaps you don't put as much stock in playstyle shifts as I do. I sense a strong change in Hindu's play.

Moreover, this is not some sort of staic position. Hindu and Doombunny can both still prove me very much wrong. I acknowledge your case against Doombunny as rational and sincere; I don't understand why you're not giving me the same courtesy.

---

Voting for percy after targetting him IS THE SAME THING WE JUST WENT THROUGH. If its a damn investigation say so. If not DONT DO WHAT JOHNNY DONT DOES.

This.

It's your turn Enigma. Since it's impossible for a town power role to use information they may or may not have gathered at night and build

around

it, then I don't think I can trust anyone enough to make a move like this without informing us.

[RedCoyote]

You know, RayFrost explained that "tech" thing to me, and I still didn't get it.

Hindu's trying to pin me for being inconsistent, but the bigger point is that he's made a playstyle shift from leading to being passive. He says because he was writing a paper, and that may be true, but I'd like to see more from him than just reacting. Percy doesn't see this, but I do. It's a big deal. Say what you will about Doombunny, but he's unchanged from D1 to D2. I honestly would've expected Hindu to see my vote, say, "Ah, yeah, sorry guys. I've been a little busy. What's with this here? Why did you do this? X doesn't sound right", instead of, "WOW I'm voted for lurking?!", implying I was somehow wrong with my expectations.

That's way too defensive, and it doesn't sound like Hindu from D1. That's all I'm saying. Am I really the only one who sees this?

[RedCoyote]

No, but look at my play. It's pretty much the same deali-o.

Do you think I'm satisfied with that? A man only has one vote.

---

...and I sense a strong change in your case.

I really thought [Hindu] had a strong first day, but he's been kind of absent from anything going on today

Hindu's trying to pin me for being inconsistent, but the bigger point is that he's made a playstyle shift from leading to being passive.

---

I think I'm just going to hide out in a bunker with AV, Zhero, and Spyrex and we'll just nuke everyone else.

[RedCoyote]

Huh.

Hmmmm...

This is a lot to take in... I guess the thing the strikes me immediately is that the drops all look a little different. I guess this is understandable. Percy, how many times did you see the drop that we saw earlier today, if any?

Enigma, do you believe Percy? Is he accurate in saying that you're gunning for him on account of defensive troops?

And, of course, does anyone else claim Eavesdrop? Percy's post seems genuine, I guess, in a way. I'm hesitant because all the posts seem kind of different. I don't get why there are two different encryptions? And a third is mentioned? It sounds too elaborate to be fake, but too fake to be real.

Unvote

for now.

If we believe Percy, I think we should look at the group would consist of: Hindu, Zhero, Doombunny, Enigma, and whoever wasn't on the Elscouta wagon at L-1 (including me).

Actually, as bad of a position that it puts me in for being the hammer, I'm inclined more toward the last thing (the Elscouta hammer). Assuming we believe Percy, which would make sense (especially if Enigma gives us the go ahead), then we should probably lynch someone who had the opportunity to hammer Elscouta. Obviously I wouldn't want to be me, and I'd prefer it to be SP or Doombunny.

[RedCoyote]

Okay, I didn't see that mention of "four" in the first go around. That's just odd. Here's what's stopping me. Why were earlier posts using one cipher, and then later posts using a different cipher? Enigma, you mentioned that the Caesar cipher is simple to use, yet you criticized Percy for figuring it out? I don't know much about encryption, so that confuses me. Also, if this is the simplest cipher, why was the more difficult one abandoned (Vinaigrette)?

I'm actually going to depart from what Enigma/Calcifer are saying, the fourth message looks similar to the message that was dropped to the whole group (minus the caps). Then again, it may be

too

similar, indicating that Percy is trying to shape it in such a way that it looks like the message we already saw.

The main thing we have to remember is that Percy claimed because Enigma more or less forced him to do so. This puts the impetus on Percy to react, you know, regardless of what alignment he has. Still, I'm falling back on what I said previously, because it's the best way I can make heads or tails of the situation. These messages sound too elaborate to be fake, but too fake to be real.

I need to hear from everyone on this, everyone needs to get a reaction down. I don't want to make a move before everyone puts themselves out there on what this means and/or if they cc Percy.

[RedCoyote]

Still waiting to hear from Hindu, Doombunny, and Zhero.

[RedCoyote]

As many good points that have been made... I just can't piece it together. Percy said something just now, he said if he was scum with sub why would he risk claiming Eavesdrop, not knowing if it was taken or not. I don't have an answer for that. I don't have an answer for why there has been no counter-claim. I just cannot imagine everyone left it sitting there. Additionally, if you know you attempted to pick Eavesdrop and didn't get it, then someone else had to have gotten it. So there's that.

I'm not saying some of you are wrong to challenge Percy here, but I am saying there's but a thin sliver of him possibly being scum.

Vote: Doombunny9

I'm thinking Doombunny was the one who was being addressed with that hammer comment. I'm thinking if Doombunny

does

flip scum, then we'll all feel a lot better about Percy.

[RedCoyote]

Whatever Doombunny flips, Enigma throwing his hands up is bs.

That's always a big red flag for me, especially when it's a hammer.

"Okay, I'll join the wagon... but don't hold me responsible! My hand was forced!"

You are responsible for your actions. Period. Deadline or no, we had a few days before DEFCON 1. In light of Enigma's whining about my hammer yesterday, I'll be damned if I'm going to let him get away with that.

[RedCoyote]

Don't you dare lynch me yet, not without letting me post. Let's not get into those claim shenanigans again, but suffice to say that I have strong reason to believe that Spyrex is making a bluff in order to get this town ahead. I don't know whether that makes him scum or not. I need to read over the opening posts carefully. I just saw my name appear, like, three times. That's unacceptable.

[RedCoyote]

Hmmm.

Hmmm... Hmmmmmmm....

If no one cc's, I suspect Spyrex would easily have Espionage. I've also got reason to believe that he's got nothing in his reports so far, or maybe he's got, like, two town investigations or something. Either way, this is not the right way to go.

Vote: Percy

Knowing Spyrex, he likely didn't invest Percy because he "knew" he was scum (either that or, the more obvious answer, he

is

scum). I don't play that game. We lynch for sure scum, and it doesn't get more cut-and-dry than Percy right now. I'm really not prepared to straight up call Spyrex scum though. Based on his play so far, and how I know him, I'm really thinking this is possibly a gambit.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, I've got a power btw.

Hold on, let me drive to work first. I was finishing up a paper. I'll be back in an hour or so.

[RedCoyote]

Fail-safe

[RedCoyote]

Ohh snap that changes everything doesn't it

No, no it doesn't

Of course it doesn't change anything. Nothing I have could "change" my alignment anyways.

What's your angle, anyway? If you think I'm the type to say "Ah, ya got me!", then you're sorely mistaken. I think you need to back off with this and tell us what you really have, because I'm no commie, sir.

---

I'm overthinking everything and I'm so god damn confused right now :S

The only "for sure" thing we have right now, I think, is Percy. Doombunny's flip really doesn't make any sense with those QT drops. There are simply too many holes in Percy's story. You pegged him in a corner, he was forced to make a move, and now he's stuck with it.

What other options do we have to go on? I mean, I know I'm speaking from a biased position, but I just don't think Spyrex's investigation is as reliable. Not only do we have to pick whether or not Spyrex is aligned with scum or not (which, admittedly, even I'm still unsure of... this smells more like too-cool-for-school Spyrex than scumSpyrex, but that's just instinct talking), we also have to swallow the fact that he essentially forced Calcifer (and, consequently, you and Percy) to out powers early. This may be a good thing in the sense that we've got Percy in a tough position, but we've also effectively lost both you and the Cop.

Also, did you claim your result yet? I'll have to go back and check on this.

---

I can confirm RC doesn't have an active power. Meh.

I have no reason to lie. Then again, I don't know exactly what was going through Papa's mind when he got this. It may have been a secondary or tertiary choice though. Let me ask the Mod what the order was.

---

Sub claiming eavesdropper means he can never publicly fire his nuke without giving himself away.

The entire point of the Sub is that they don't have to announce it.

[RedCoyote]

Well, if he's scum then none of his investigations are reliable.

Like I said, Zhero, I'm really not convinced he's scum, or else I'd probably be voting him. Spyrex is very much the type to use a confirmed power, which is effectively the case here, to get his will done. I don't think that's a bad move, you know, and it's as good as any if you really feel like you know if someone is scum/town. It's just... not right.

[RedCoyote]

we don't need to get the full massclaim done do we? let's just kill red.

Because God forbid someone forces you to claim, you'd have to explain why you just shot a nuke at townEnigma.

Yeah, let's hurry this lynch so I can get another kill off... muhuhahahahahahaha. Long live the proletariat! Down with capitalism! Hmmm... I wonder if there's any beer in the fridge...

[RedCoyote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2-zzmCmMVI

You capitalist pigs honestly think you stand a chance against my comrades? The PEOPLE are on our side. The PEOPLE shall rise up against your filthy, tyrannical power grab. The world shall never be enslaved by the shackles of greed!

Власть народу!
Долой капитализм!
Я горжусь тем, чтобы умереть за людей!

[RedCoyote]

I loved all the players, especially my scum teammates. I feel sort of bad in that I feel like I let Hindu down a bit during our night time discussions. Luckily it never really came back to bite us, but it very well could have. I just never really was on page with encrypting text. I joined after everything had already started, but I never felt like I was on the same page with everyone unless we were doing the dumb encryption.

I don't think there was any real bad play here. Andrius making a few slip ups with his role probably hurt, but you never know. Without them the game would've been completely different, that's for sure.

I'm so glad I got to replace into the game. I felt like I was the only one who really liked the flavor though!

AGM, you did an absolutely wonderful job. From the mechanics to the flavor, I thought it was really well executed. It was a pleasure to play. I would love to play any similar game in the future. Ideally it may be nice to bring this into the large arena and get a few more nukes flying about, as Socio was hinting at. Still, it was a lot of fun. Good game all.

[RedCoyote]

Oh, Fate, thanks for coming in and winning it for us, too.