Mini 1069 - Hospital Madness Mafia (Game Over!)

[Charnel]

hi. I started skimming the thread. I was surprised that I saw my role pm in thread, but that this role hadn't been modkilled.

Mod, WTH?

Role PM quoting is allowed by rule 3.

I don't really feel like doing much for the game until I know that I am actually alive.


Oh, brilliant, I'm at L-1? LET ME KNOW WHEN I HAVE TO REPLACE IN AGAIN.

in case this isn't some big mistake, a few questions:

1. Do you want me to read the whole thread?
2. Are there any specific things you want to know from me?
3. Do you want me to read specific parts of the game?

[Charnel]

hi. I started skimming the thread. I was surprised that I saw my role pm in thread, but that this role hadn't been modkilled.

Mod, WTH?

Role PM quoting is allowed by rule 3.

Oh, kay...

Nope, don't agree with it. But anyway, that part you know. I'm a flavor cop/tracker. I think the tracking part is the more usefull, as nothing tells me what a certain role does.

[Charnel]

@moo/replacement, defend your lack of content.

Yeah, love this. I don't know moo. It's his problem. Am I being wagonned for inactivity? Because in that case, your problems are solved.

[Charnel]

No you are not being wagoned for inactivity, you are being wagoned for lack of content, different meaning...

Solved too. Is there anything specific you want to know, or can I go through the whole thread?

[Charnel]

unvote

, go through the thread, I don't want a quick hammer coming in here before your done. However, let it be know that I still (figuratively) have my vote on you.

You are going to pay back every hour of my life if you lynch me regardless of what I say.

[Charnel]

Vote: TheLonging

For trying to lynch the mod.

see guys, this is why RVS is good

Vote: TheLonging

He knows why.

wat I do :<

Cooldog: It's IMPOSSIBLE to lynch the mod. If we get the majority of votes on him, none of it would count, and it's as if we never voted. It's not a bastard mod game, so he can't be lynched anyways. So I ask again: Why is RVS voting Parama bad?

I dislike this post. The RVS is made to pressure people into doing things. Voting the mod isn't helping and antitown. When people react on this, TheLonging reacts quasi innocent. The quasi part does it for me. He makes a joke of the accusations that are actually right.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TheLonging
Biggest wagon

However, this is just as bad. Chess doesn't acknowledge the starting case on thelonging, but simply joins because he can. kid is a good choice for Longings buddy.

I'm going to be gone until Tuesday morning, and didn't want blood on my hands.

Also, we're still solidly in RVS. (I am, at least.)

@Mod: V/LA until Tuesday morning.

OUCH. NO. RVS was long over after what happened before. This post is actively making excuses to not participate in scumhunting. Chesskid looks better in this exchange

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TheLonging
Biggest wagon

chesskid is scum, exe is town. Great to know we got 1 scum so far.

unvote
vote: chesskid3

And another interaction between TheLonging and Chesskid.

As scum, you have been given the names of your buddies. Human nature is to focus on them more. TheLonging had the choice to vote Exe and Chesskid on his wagon (both reasonless votes), but chose Chesskid. He proclaimed Exe was town. For what reason is completely beyond me.


If we compare this with CooLDoG's post, who has the same read on both Exe and chesskid, then this makes a lot more sense.





OKAY, page three, large shift off TheLonging to NS. Though NS is actively not participating, this is really a shame.

[Charnel]

UNVOTE: VOTE: CooLDoG
scum.

This is tasky's first post. And it sucks. He singled out the single most protown player, and voted him.

Oh My God, You Guys, Look At How You SUCK.

Okay, that's out of my system. (Also, it appears I have net access today; I thought all my net places were closed with the holiday, but, well.... not).

Since I've only played previously with a handfuil of y'all, I guess I should explain. My first RV

always

includes "{He|she|it} knows why." It's null, coming from me.

It's not my experience that wagons gather that much steam in the first page or two; and with my supposed net outage of today, I didn't want to contribute to a random lynch.

That said, I thnk HotDog is champing at the bit trying to pigeonhole me into posting during his best reading time. Screw that.

FoS: cOOldOg

I think TLing (I like that, it's short and cool) is a bit ... opportunistic about distancing from me. Trust me on this, if nothing else, he and I are NOT buddies in any sense.

and then this. I have no idea why NS didn't vote. I think he was a little concious about OMGUS voting, and thought OMGUS FoS-ing was better.

NOPE. This post is surprisingly empty again.

On re-reading:

unvote

Vote: chesskid

Evasiveness, fingerpointing (not the good kind, either), and just gut.

PrevEdit: Exe, umm. I shall look for these "points" you claim to have allegedly "made."

No, again. Nothing changed between these posts, but suddenly his gut points somewhere else.

Unvote. Vote: Nobody Special

What exactly are you afraid of? Why are you so nervous about lynching TL and why do you have to distance yourself from any accountability by claiming you're still in the RVS? The latter is a big red flag to me.

Oh. Yes, I can (I suppose) understand how you could think these "points" are worth addressing. To humour you, if nothing else:

1) I'm afraid of nothing. Stop projecting your mediocrity and fearfulness on me, plzkthx.

B.i) I wasn't nervous about lynching TLing (specifically); I was rather surprised the wagon gathered that much speed that quickly (as previously stated). Given my anticipated V/LA of today (the one that never materialized), I was loathe to leave my vote up while away.

B.ii) RVS lasts far longer than anyone ever acknowledges. I feel I am doing a Public Service by pointing this out as often as possible.

I'm starting to tunnel, so I;m going to take a short break after this. 1) is a plain insult. It's intention isn't scumhunting, but getting someone else to stop scumhunting by drawing them into a mudslinging contest. B.ii) is plain bad. RVS was VERY short in this game, and the only reason NS prolonged the RVS to do no scumhunting. Till this point, he hasn't done any scumhunting.

[Charnel]

Also new guy is cherrypicking quotes - the one from me on TL he convientely didn't quote the post RIGHT BEFORE it about running someone up to L-2 for fun.

I don't consider this a reason. And I can't really quote the whole thread, can I?

[Charnel]

Concious of tunneling = scumtell.

...

Slot is scum.

It's so great to already know everybodies allignment. I don't, and I rather keep an open mind when reading. You, however, don't seem to have such thoughts. Tunneling someone into his lynch no matter what he posts is rather antitown. New posts should be able to change one's mind, and they will change mine. I have 15 pages to go.

[Charnel]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TheLonging
Biggest wagon

chesskid is scum, exe is town. Great to know we got 1 scum so far.

unvote
vote: chesskid3

Can't find it.

[Charnel]

Wow. Look at Posts 53-55. Wingless wants information from NS and votes him. Exe repeats Wingless and votes NS. chesskid blindly wagons DESPITE earlier stating...

Ho ho ho this RVS sure ended fast.

NS - Why is someone being at L-3 disconcerting?

Vote: chesskid3

I really do not undertand chesskid. I am suspicious of him. He doesn't have cruelty which is town, and tries not to seriously attack anyone to keep his opportunity to attack another person instead which is scummy in my eyes. He doesn't really posting content. I need explanations chesskid.

Unvote
Vote: chesskid3

By this point, the chesskid wagon has already formed. With chesskid and exe having similar play, but chesskid being much more active, I really don't understand where this wagon is coming from. NS and Thelonging were so much better options.

Day 1 Vote Count #3

[4] chesskid3

- TheLonging, Moospiker, Nobody Special, Wingless

[2] Nobody Special

- Exe, chesskid3

[2] TheLonging

- Zang, CooLDoG

[1] Enigma

- Uprising

[1] CooLDoG

- Tasky

[0] Wingless

-

[0] Tasky

-

[0] Zang

-

[0] Exe

-

[0] Moospiker

-

[0] bv310

-

[0] Uprising

-

Not Voting (2): Enigma, bv310

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is 10/31/10 at 9 AM CST.

At least one townie, and most likely more on the chesskid wagon. But I'm pretty sure that there is scum there. The chesskid wagon really didn't make sense.

BV310 hasn't posted yet.
NS is hella scummy right now. Piggybacking on the Chesskid wagon to save his skin is obvious.
Chesskid wagon is pretty strong with 4 people, though I really don't see the merit in it. The late joiners to the wagon are weak as hell.

...

QFT.


Enigma provides some original material in post 85 => town.

Enigma seems to have a point with his Uprising vote, as this post is scummy. I bolded the statements that are really showing that.

@ Enigma, that first image was adorable.

I really don't know how I missed your post :$

The RVS doesn't make me nervous, I just have no idea what the S stands for.

I'm not participating because I really see no reason for me to.

@ CooLDoG
1. I really had no idea why we were putting people at L-2. I don't understand how it is beneficial.

I was just confused...

2. Is this question really directed at me?

3. I like seeing people posting and I know there was someone else who wasn't posting and I can't remember their name because of it.


UNVOTE:

First bolded: I know it is the RVS, but town would have to participate. You should want to find scum. Uprising seemed more concerned about avoiding pressure.
second: scum acts confused. Town tries to figure out.
and then the unvote. He didn't do anything! Purely a passive post.

[Charnel]

I have issues with random voting because I'm afraid I'll vote the wrong person and then everyone will be all like "OMG YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY SCUM NOW"

Here we have it. Uprising is afraid of being caught. obvscum.

On re-reading:

unvote

Vote: chesskid

Evasiveness, fingerpointing (not the good kind, either), and just gut.

PrevEdit: Exe, umm. I shall look for these "points" you claim to have allegedly "made."

I made it

BIGGER

since you're obviously unable to read my posts at normal size.

NS seems to think these are good reasons for a vote. Where did chesskid "point fingers"? Where was he evasive? Chesskid was the one asking for a bandwagon during the RVS and continued doing this. He was one of the most direct players in the start of the game. The chesskid wagon never made sense. Nor will it if you say he "pointed fingers" and was "evasive".

No, we had much better examples of evasive and passive play then chesskid.

Reading=done, This is going to be my last post in a bit....

Okay, Chesskid hasn't posted much content. He's ridden along with Exe on a wagon. Voted for the bigest wagon, and nothing else. I get the wagon now... And I do feel he is more scummy then TL.

uvote

However, he doesn't seem to point fingers in badlight, but he does seem to cruse with town-looking players.

vote chesskid

L-2.

Can't post any more due to a lightning storm that could fry my computer.

Fixed tags, counting the vote.

WTH. You were my best townread, up till now. Exe followed him onto a wagon. With several lurkers in the game, asking for more content on page 5 is ridiculous.

DoG: did you mess up here?

I see zero non circumstantial evidence as to why everyone is voting chesskid...
Interesting to see everyone jump on his wagon with pretty weak evidence.

Also,
Mooooooooooooo!
^Just some random post to let people know I know I'm in the game but I was too busy to post something non-trivial on my iphone.

second time I think Enigma is town. He is spot on. Chesskid is at L-1 after a vote of Zang.

Tasky's 107 is terrible.



I have to applaud chesskid's defense of his wagon. His analysis of it is good, though not hammering is not towny (tasky). His cooldog vote makes sense, but scum might have missed it.

NVM the question above, CooLDoG. Your post is not one of scum making an excuse for a vote. You were wrong, but you might have believed you were right.


Exe's 116 is terrible. He starts with "Chesskid is playing worse then ever". Which is simply untrue. Chesskid was awesome just before this post. However, his wagon analysis is GOOD. I can't understand that Exe didn't get the point that the wagon was bad, when he knew this.

chesskid3, you remind me of a child trying to guilt trip his parents into buying him a toy.

I do think you are a little scummy. I do think you are scum moreso than anyone else. However, I will not vote you yet because the day doesn't need to end yet (clearly).

Reasoning? Where?

and then Uprising doesn't dare to make real statements here.



I'm beginning to theorize most of the scum were on the wagon. Town was so obviously wrong on chesskid, but even though he was at L-1 for a long time, there was no hammer.


The wagon: TheLonging, Moospiker, Nobody Special, Wingless, CooLDoG, Zang

I'm town. Cooldog seemed town. Thelonging was awefully quite through the building of the wagon. Zang I don't know much about. Seen early play, I don't think both NS and TheLonging are scum together. It would leave Wingless. One drawback of this theory is that Uprising is town, and I can't really see that.

[Charnel]

if you post your questions now, I might answer them shortly, or after I wake up again. It is 1.36 am now, and it was enough for today.

[Charnel]

@charnel, the whole chesswagon was a huge mistake for me, I was just scared because of my power role... I just go tcought up in the wagon, looking back I should have just stayed with my NS vote. You are correct that I thought at the time that it was my best bet (I'm a vig remeber?).

I hadn't seen your claim, but now I have. CPR doctors aren't vigs, and

MOD

can CPR doctors kill scum? (Both variations exist.)


and I believe you. Now don't worry about how you look, and start hunting for scum.

[Charnel]

@chesskid (and, well, everyone): I don't just suck at RVS, I suck at Mafia. Ask anyone.

NS made this post to excuse for his total lack of content?

@chesskid (and, well, everyone): I don't just suck at RVS, I suck at Mafia. Ask anyone.

Btw, forgot to mention, "I'm a bad player," is a really crap defense.

QFT.

Well, if it appears everyone on my wagon is going to leave their votes, should I claim?
Because I'd like to lynch scum today, not a PR. Just sayin'.

Scum didn't have a good spot for their next vote, I think. The cooldog wagon didn't really start yet and TL/NS wagons had disappeared. While the chesskid lynch was quite obviously not an option anymore, the wagon stayed there. Was it surprising that Wingless, TL and NS lingered? I don't think so.

Wingless hopped to the next bad wagon, CooLDoG. Sure his 180 didn't make sense, but Dog had been protown all game long. That has to count for something.

Tasky's 191 is not as bad as it seems. He is wrong, but might actually be town.

So you want to play Anti-town, along with NS? Very well.

Here tasky is linked to NS. If TL is scum, tasky would be more likely town, while NS more likely scum.

I'm really afraid of voting incorrectly. Is there anyone we specifically want to lynch?

PASSIVE PASSIVE PASSIVE.

unvote vote Uprising

. Uprisings doesn't have any intention to hunt scum, and his posts which aren't that many.

I have no idea who scum is. CooLDoG and Chesskid3 seem most likely to me.
UNVOTE: VOTE: CooLDoG

?

He doesn't know, but the two major bandwagons are most likely scum. YEAAAAH



NS's 216 calls for more chesskid votes and these are the two next posts:

I agree with the above, even if it makes me sound scummy. I have no fear in claiming ether, if you guys push me hard enough....

"The above" can cover an awful lot of stuff. Why so vague? Inherent scumminess? Yeah, that's it.

FoS: cOOldOg

This is framing someone, but waiting for support for the vote. I really dislike this from NS.

Zang is quite tunneling on Tasky. Given the other bandwagons, I don't blame him.

Weekends are my limited-posting time, as some of you who have played with me before may know. However, have time for a quick post.

Moospiker disappearing is not good. I still think his vote on Chess was pretty iffy, so I want to hear from him.
However, the Cooldog wagon is pretty solid. His defensiveness over 3 votes screams scum. And his vote on chess never made any sense, especially the whole "I don't want Chess lynched, I just think he should be put at L-1."
NS switching to Cooldog when his wagon is picking up speed makes perfect sense as scum bussing. Cooldog-scum = NS-scum IMO.

Unvote. Vote: Cooldog

People defending themselves don't have to be scum. Defending is pretty much a null-tell. I dislike the bussing argument.

Enigma's 238 is great. I dislike his opening to the option of hammering Cooldog, but nobody is perfect.

Slaxx's entrance is decent. Chesskid's enigma vote is terrible.



Chesskid got off the enigma wagon... and the Wingless copies the case and gets on.

VOTE: Enigma


Now that I've reread, I'm feeling him scum moreso than before. The tunneling isn't too kind, either.

3rd vote, just after Zang voted. Uprising was waiting for support. If Uprising is scum, Zang is most likely town.

Mod, does rolename imply allignment?

Why should I answer this question?

[Charnel]

UNVOTE:

Oh, BTW, I'm a she, not a he.


VOTE: MooSpiker


You all don't want Enigma lynched SO I will go after a different scum.
MooSpiker is scum to me.

This was a pure OMGUS vote. Moospiker just voted her. This was the third vote on Moospiker.

Enigma, your case motivations seem town to me, but I don't find Uprising genuinely scummy. Your vote would be better placed on NS.

No ty, I think I shall decide where I want to put my vote myself. But I would happily settle on Zang though, it's like everyone has forgotten he exists!

Zang is indeed not lurking, but how many players noticed him? No matter how short his posts are, Enigma posts quality.

Okay,

unvote

And then, because he's largely pain in my ass,

Vote: Exe

Not again. NS is more then being unhelpful, he is playing to survive. Scum nr 2. Slaxx 347 is good.

Okay,

unvote

And then, because he's largely pain in my ass,

Vote: Exe

So let me understand your logic. Your voting for a guy who is a pain and the ass (null tell at best), and you get on Slaxx's case for voting you without reason.

Scum-mometer shoots up, I'm perfectly happy if we lynch NS today.

Haha hey look, CooLDoG got my vote. Thought it was obvious. It was a serious vote but done in an incredibly mocking and ironic manner. I am proud of my cleverness, tbh.

Is it only NS who didn't get this? I like the slaxx-cooldog interaction here. Sounds like cooperating town.

31 posts, commentary, and a vote or three.

Besides tunelling me, what have YOU done?

3 VOTES? one was random, the last was unreasoned OMGUS on exe. Your posts have been empty. Saying that Exe tunneled all game is far from the truth. If NS is scum, Exe isn't.


NS is a watcher. I don't think this role is indicative of allignment, but I can understand the unvotes. Watchers are powerful.

I have read most of Moo's ISO.
I didn't saw real scumhunting there.
He was lurking, and I think he didn't read all the topic because his posts wrote mostly about posts that hadn't been made for a long time, he didn't hunt scum intensively.

Unvote
Vote: Moospiker

and the L-1 vote. This is bandwagonning to the max, and although scum doesn't like hammering, they do like letting town do it.



List (scum on top):

Uprising
Nobody Special
Wingless
TheLonging
Zang
Exe
Slaxx
Tasky
chesskid3
CooLDoG
Enigma

[Charnel]

Zang, wth are you doing on Enigma. Please unvote, your vote is bad and (seen the case on Enigma) hypocritical.

[Charnel]

Zang, wth are you doing on Enigma. Please unvote, your vote is bad and (seen the case on Enigma) hypocritical.

Unvote

I don't see how it's hypocritical though.

The main point of the enigma case is his focus on Uprising. You had kind of the same thing with... tasky, iirc.

I just iso'd you, and you are right. Only 3 posts tasky related. You just weren't very active, not exactly tunneling.

[Charnel]

NS is not today's lynch either. I'm going to reread in a bit

Is this based on meta? Because NS is far from a bad lynch.

[Charnel]

Based on the claim. I'm going to make a case after I knock off some hwk on another player. Want to see how they respond, etc etc. Deadline isn't for quite awhile, right?

Ok, watchers are powerful, that is true. Scum watchers aren't uncommon, and that is my problem. It is true that in this game, a town watcher would be more important to town then a scum watcher would be to scum. Deadline is within a week, I think.

[Charnel]

Also, charnel, use your track ability tonight, don't use the rolecop one. [To clarify, if you use the rolecop one, I'm going to be up for lynching you, because if you flip scum we drown in wifom stew].
Makes sense, right?

I'm a tracker/

flavour cop

. Which is why I asked if the name of a role is indicative of allignment.

The bigger problem that I have: unless I get a guilty: is it a good idea to claim track results? Either I am claiming for someone else that he is vanilla, or I'm claiming that he is a PR. Both aren't really worth it. If I was to hit scum killing someone: you would know it in the first post.

Which is why I am thinking about using the flavour cop ability. If the names are indicative of allignment, I would get guilties and inno's, if the mod forgot to stop this. Seen that he didn't want to answer my question, I was leaning this way.

What were your reasons why I had to use my tracking ability?

[Charnel]

I'm not satisfied enough yet to change my vote. Sure, NS does have a beneficial role, regardless of alignment, but who's to say that isn't a fakeclaim role PM?
Charnel is giving me scumvibes, although I'm aware I'm too inexperienced to know anyone's meta. (This is partly why I dislike meta.)

I didn't expect anything else from you. You bandwagonned onto an easy lynch, and now that you have to find another place for your vote again you fear getting caught... and you leave your vote.

I'm happy with my vote. Uprising is obvscum.

[Charnel]

NS's second ability is

NOT

a track. It's just a "what abilities have been used," checker. This is a HUGE scum beneficial role. Being able to know the roles that were used in the night means knowing if there is a cop, the number of docs, and potentially any other power roles that might exist. I don't see the value of this ability as a town ability.

Vote: NS

for the same old reasons (so very scummy).

Good find! No town wants to know that "scum used a kill". They already assume that. Who did it is what town would want to know. You have a sharp eye, Exe.

However, I'm not going to vote NS, which I normally would. Seen CooLDoG's vote, I'm assuming he is going to shoot NS if NS is alive tonight. If I'm wrong here, please tell me CD.

I think Uprising is today's lynch.

[Charnel]

in that case:

unvote vote NS

[Charnel]

I really don't understand how I am

obvious

scum...

Please explain this to me.

You are not telling me that you don't understand why I'm voting you.


and you are avoiding questions...

[Charnel]

The bigger problem that I have: unless I get a guilty: is it a good idea to claim track results? Either I am claiming for someone else that he is vanilla, or I'm claiming that he is a PR. Both aren't really worth it. If I was to hit scum killing someone: you would know it in the first post.

You can't get a guilty result as a tracker you can just see if somebody has a targeting ability or not. If you do  get a result where somebody doesn't target anything, you can't assume it's a Vanilla in case of a mafia goon, limited role or non targeting role. Do you get the action that is being performed or just that somebody targeted someone else?

That somebody targeted someone else. Now if I tracked you to Enigma, and Enigma died that day, I would think that rather incriminating.

But my other results, I'm not so sure I want to claim them. If I find a powerrole, that is fun and all, but I don't want to claim someone else is a PR. And in the same, but less decisive way, I don't want to claim vanilla's (I could just as well have tracked a goon who did nothing, and even if I didn't, I'd make it easier for scum to kill our PR's).

The flavour cop isn't much better, unless scum have names that indicate they are scum.

[Charnel]

My vote stays where it is.

Only 3 more Charnel votes to avoid nolynch, guys, come on.

WTF. You want to convince people to vote for me, not because you think I'm scummy, but because "the deadline is coming"?

The fact that NS leaves his vote to force a deadline lynch on me is scummy as hell.

confirm vote NS

This is NS as a pure survivalist, he doesn't bother with looking for scum.

[Charnel]

I'm sorry I have a hard time not seeming scummy, I always do. I'm pretty sure you guys will call mostly anything I say about who scum is or isn't OMGUS/buddying/followingeveryoneelse, which is a little disheartening. I really can't do much else except run amok with my average role. I'm only really willing to lynch either Charnel or NS at this moment. This is clearly subject to change.

AND STILL no one has given me reasoning that I've actually understood to be reasoning as to why

I

am scum.

I'm not really in favor of coaching people which I think are scum, and you aren't today's lynch (to me). NS's last post was so obviously scum (trying to force a lynch on someone else because of the deadline, not because he thinks that person scum) that it easily beats your general passive play.

I think I may have mentioned this earlier but I went through past games of Uprising.

Definite meta conflict. No way is she this hopeless in her newbie game (where she was a town PR).

Ok, I didn't notice, but then you are right.

[Charnel]

CHARNEL'S ROLE IS MORE LIKELY A SCUM ROLE THAN NS'S.

THE INVERSE IS TRUE IF CHARNEL IS TOWN, BUT THAT'S NOT LIKELY.

NS IS MORE LIKELY SCUM THEN CHARNEL.

scumhunt, and do not pr-hunt.

[Charnel]

Chesskid, I know TL is scummy. But TL never went this far.

My vote stays where it is.

Only 3 more Charnel votes to avoid nolynch, guys, come on.

Chess,

this is no longer antitown. This is pro NS.

He wants someone else to be lynched, and conveniantly I'm still the biggest wagon (God knows why).


Just check who still hangs there on my wagon. And NS's reason is that we need a lynch at deadline. Uprising has a "gut feeling". TL stated that his read hadn't changed and I frankly don't know who the forth is. This wagon stinks.

[Charnel]

pro ns when ns is not scum is still just anti-town, not scum, btw ;P

Shotty is antitown. You are on this moment insulting shotty. And we don't want that.

But sure, post your case. Make it better then the one's on Uprising and NS, and you have a chance.

[Charnel]

My early read of TL was scum, but this really doesn't make sense, guys. Uprisings hop on TL's wagon is scummy as hell. She acknowledges that chesskid's case is hard to read, but follows on the wagon anyway. This is all going way to fast. I think I was wrong on my earlier read, because it really doesn't make sense that TL is scum and the wagon spontaniously forms after, frankly, a bad case by chesskid (I don't doubt your intentions, but the shouldn't convince anyone)

The only time you'll see me on the TL wagon is the last

second

before the deadline. NS and Uprising are far better choices.

[Charnel]

Trust me, they work. And it is more a "speed of wagon compared to driving forces argument". Deadlines, start of game, strong arguments all could give big shifts. Only one of them is here, and your case wasn't strong. I suspect another driving force as in: scum wants it to go for a mislynch.

My vote stays where it is.

Only 3 more Charnel votes to avoid nolynch, guys, come on.

WTF. You want to convince people to vote for me, not because you think I'm scummy, but because "the deadline is coming"?

The fact that NS leaves his vote to force a deadline lynch on me is scummy as hell.

confirm vote NS

This is NS as a pure survivalist, he doesn't bother with looking for scum.

I honestly managed to miss him saying that


I agree with Charnel's interpretation of this.

I do not like this at all.

Could you please vote NS then? NS-lynch > TL-lynch. Even if you have to bus.

[Charnel]

My vote stays where it is.

Only 3 more Charnel votes to avoid nolynch, guys, come on.

WTF. You want to convince people to vote for me, not because you think I'm scummy, but because "the deadline is coming"?

The fact that NS leaves his vote to force a deadline lynch on me is scummy as hell.

confirm vote NS

This is NS as a pure survivalist, he doesn't bother with looking for scum.

I honestly managed to miss him saying that


I agree with Charnel's interpretation of this.

I do not like this at all.

vote Uprising

you voted TL for nothing, while letting this slip away silently.

[Charnel]

nope, this relies on nothing. Uprising has acknowledged my point, while his vote is a pure bandwagon vote.

Means that something isn't right here.

and why are you posting my argument in your words when you clearly didn't understand it?

another question. Why did you try to make the case on Uprising and NS look bad right after your far from stunning pbpa on TL?

[Charnel]

There is no case on NS other than his role PM.
The case on Uprising is crap too, though he might actually be scum.

This is the post I was talking about. WHY?

[Charnel]

THERE IS NO CASE ON NS. THE ONLY THING YOU HAVE SAID IS HE'S PLAYING TO SURVIVE.

that is only the last point against NS. Do something about your memory.

[Charnel]

Some Mods have specific rules against outside-the-game wagers. I can't recall who at this moment.

Avatar bets are, as I thought had been said earlier, where two

idiots

players make a wager, the outcome to be determined later, and the loser has to change their avatar to something stupid, inane, or demoralizing.

As I said, pointless.

Exactly. Stuff like this is not part of the game. It is just as insane to bet $50 on your allignment. It shouldn't be part of the game.

CooLDoG, I'm unsure of whether it's popular for vigilantes to shoot, but I'm of the opinion that it would be wisest to abstain from shooting tonight, unless you have a

really

good lead. I think the way you've reacted is fairly pro-town; a mafia member would've likely argued against shooting and pointed out the detrimental aspects of it so as to avoid suspicion when they can't prove their claim. Proving that you're innocent isn't really that important, anyway.

No. He should shoot. If he can't think of anything, he can still shoot lurkers, or players who were voted a lot. As long as he shoots people who are going to be lynched, he can't go wrong. Do the maths. A vig shooting in the end gives to more opportunities to kill someone, and the mafia less.

lrdwhyt doesn't give me any reason to change my earlier reads on that slot. It's telling though that this game needs an analysis of the chesscase to finally pull the breaks on the TL wagon. I doubt anybody on the wagon read it well, as it was hard to read, and ISO-cases are a sign of weakness already.

Tomorrow I'm going to take a good look at him, as I don't think it is valuable to do that D1.

[Charnel]

Based on the really fast wagonhops onto the TL wagon though, a flip would be nice soon. IDK, we have more time now which is awesome. One of Uprising or TL will be today's lynch, I agree.

just got back from the rally to restore sanity will reread what happened while I was gone tomorrow

There is no case on NS other than his role PM.
The case on Uprising is crap too, though he might actually be scum.

Why aren't you sticking with your wagon, now that it probably won't lead to a lynch? I thought you were so convinced?

Why does a flip on TL matter? Either the bad votes were people bussing him, or those were the people that bandwagonned him. Either way they are more likely scum. And why are you in all your post trying to keep the attention away from NS?

[Charnel]

BECAUSE NS ISN'T SCUM. WHY ARE YOU TUNNELING HIM, FOR THE REVERSE QUESTION?

I'm ok with abandoning my case on TL because I'm confident he will be dead soon, and Uprising is #2 on my scumlist.

I'm voting Uprising. NS is second choice. I do not like that you are misrepping the long NS case, and that you place the false dichotomy that we have to pick between Uprising and TL. The NS wagon has had plenty of support and it is

odd

how you act around the NS case.

Esspecially as you now say that you actually don't mind that NS dies.

[Charnel]

A no-kill is still an option if I don't find anyone who is likely scum.

I'll do the maths for you. Assuming that there is no other killing role then you and scum:

With 12 players, and ending the game in a 3p lylo (the longest time the game could take), there would be 4 day/night cycles to get to 4p mylo after which there is a no-lynch. 4 deaths done by town, 5 by scum.

The same situation with a vig: gives 3 day/night cycles to get to a 3p lylo. 6 deaths done by town (3 lynches and 3 vig-shots), and 3 by scum.

The fact that you shoot means that town gets much more influence on the game. Scum gets two less possibilities to kill a very protown person, meaning that you might get a very protown player into lylo (which matters a lot). Town gets two shots extra two shots to take out lurkers, scummy looking players, generally everybody who looks scummy. You would get a lylo with more protown players.

SHOOT

[Charnel]

why is it so hard to understand that while lynching VIs can help avoid misslynches at lylo, it is one of the worst possible lynches you can do because you get no information from it? Are you really this thick, or are you scum deliberately NOT getting the memo?

I fully support vigging VIs. I will never support lynching them.

I'm the type of player who doubts that the lynch is more effective then the vig. Esspecially with a good player as vig, he can be more accurate then the lynch, as the vig is 100% town. The lynch always has scum influence.

If we really want to do the information argument (while it is most times silly and hardly ever protown), the NS wagon would give double the information. He got to L-1 before, so you get to analyse 2 complete wagons. Who bandwagonned, who led, who promised to hammer but stayed off: all those questions could then be answered twice. The fact that his play is scummy has nothing to do with the outcome. Either all those players were right and you are going to look for who bussed and who was honest, or he is town and you are going to look for who bandwagonned and who was honest.

And you really want to rethink calling me stupid. You couldn't be more wrong.

[Charnel]

@Lord, see the maths-theory post about vigging.

but you get to actually force people to vote for Uprising who is likely to be scum.

that only gives you the stupid players. As soon as you are making the choice for them (which you clearly did with the TL case, and your misreps on the Uprising and TL case), you won't find scum anymore. Scum loves being "forced" onto a townie. See who are on your wagon. And what read do you get from "forcing" people on it? Everybody wagoned with no real good reason, as Enigma and lrd pointed out. People jumped on fast, without good reasons, but are they all scum?

You got tasky, who's sole strategy has been till now to get reads by voting without reasoning. It is a good thing, but he shows he doesn't understand that the game is more, and he seems not to get real reads from it.
NS and Uprising I don't have to talk about: we did already.
Zang is a lurker pur sang. Seriously, who knows anything about Zang?
Cooldog is the player who tried to get someone lynched so he could vig at night, which is, in all honesty, not such a smart move.

There are only 2 players on it that have given decent analysis about the game: you and CooLDoG. Of the players not on the wagon, only two haven't shown to be able to give a lot of analysis: Exe and Wingless.

What you did was brute-forcing a lynch through, for bad reasons. That is not the way to play.

[Charnel]

All it takes in lylo is one stupid town to lose. NS needs to be dead by lylo.

"Uprising has no scum-reason to active lurk, as it is bound to get him lynched." [/devils advocate]
"NS has no scum-reason to keep himself from being lynched by trying to force a deadline lynch on another failed wagon:"

WTH chess

The fact that NS, who tried to get me deadline lynched, is now suddenly on TL's wagon should be reason enough not to lynch TL.

[Charnel]

Nobody hammers yet

Btw, Charnel, what are you going to do if/when TL flips scum?

This night? NO COMMENT. If they want to RB me, frame someone, let them try.
Tomorrow? If TL is scum, NS is town, and isn't going to die. Zang, wingless, exe and Uprising are going to be my next targets. Uprisings vote, no matter what TL flips, didn't make sense.
If TL is town, basically a continuation of this day. Wingless should get more attention in this case too.

[Charnel]

See my point about NS's flip (because it's going to be town) being useless yet?

Nope. I could answer the same for NS, though I would analyse more as I don't know who were on him the first time. Only one allignment I would find out with TL's flip: NS's.

[Charnel]

@lrdwhyt. I don't know. And I don't care TBH. I would need a wagon to analyse, as the first votes on a wagon are usually less serious then when the bandwagon gets longer.

But it doesn't matter. We never lynch for information. I shouldn't have done it, but I didn't like how chesskid pretended that the NS lynch "would give no information", while TL's obviously would... Yeah, sure. First, we are here to lynch scum. Chesskid seems to have forgotten that when the started that debate, but you shouldn't. Chesskid is trying to destroy mostly the NS wagon in every way he can. I don't yet know why, but his argumentation has been bad in most of his points. The fact that he only did this for only one player does make me doubt a NS-chess scumteam.

[Charnel]

I doubt it.

[Charnel]

The most surprising thing is that TheLonging is still on L-1 while there have been sufficient arguments that he shouldn't be.

[Charnel]

The most surprising thing is that TheLonging is still on L-1 while there have been sufficient arguments that he shouldn't be.

the fact that TL is still at L-1 makes me actually even more sure that he is scum. I really think scum would have hammered by now otherwise.

This would be perfectly valid if this was one of the first wagons that got to L-1. This game is different, there were many wagons that got to L-1. USE THAT. Things that happened matter.

[Charnel]

You do realize you are continiously convincing yourself that you are right, do you?

anyway, what I argued was that not hammering isn't weird. That happened before. There was only one wagon that really lingered long at L-1, well after it became clear that it failed: yours. The wagon on me only disappeared (after it became clear that it failed), when you pushed the TL case. Before that, I had 4 votes. Baseless ones, votes that weren't doing a thing. Which is my point again here: the TL wagon lost momentum. Valid arguments have been brought up that it shouldn't succeed. In general, an Uprising lynch is preferred by more players. Still the TL wagon is there

when it basically failed already

. It shouldn't become the lynch, seen the support the Uprising case has. But still it is there: who is keeping the wagon there, and why? Who benefits?

It is NS's strategy (and I know I'm tunneling here), but I don't know who is using it. Someone is trying to push this lynch through because of a deadline, or because somebody thinks he has to hammer because nothing else can happen. The same happened on you, and on me: people were waiting to get the lynch through not because of valid reasons, but because "it should be done".

[Charnel]

Btw, I do agree that Uprising is likely scum, but I want TL today for two reasons.
1) It clarifies whether Uprising is a better lynch than Zang.
2) I'm most likely dead tonight, since there's not a goddamn chance I'm getting misslynched ever, so I want this to be 3 and out.

Don't care. On both. They are both antitown, just think about it. I'd gladly explain you in a MD thread.

If it makes you feel better: I did skim your analysis. Then I saw that you were tunneling, and that you didn't actually question your reads because of the analysis and I lost interest. That you didn't seem to understand my point why the long time that TL is on L-1 is odd made me explain that again.

Which you subsequentely ignored.

You know what, lets do some analysis here too. What you need to know: the chesskid wagon failed right after Cooldog's 112, where he explained that his 180 was scummy.

Almost a page after that, this was still the wagon:

[6] chesskid3 - TheLonging, Moospiker, Nobody Special, Wingless, CooLDoG, Zang

over 2 pages after that:

[4] chesskid3 - TheLonging, Moospiker, Nobody Special, CooLDoG


The Moospiker/Charnel wagon failed after my analysis of the game. These lingered:

[4] Charnel - Uprising, TheLonging, Nobody Special, Wingless


And the last VC:

[6] TheLonging - chesskid3, Tasky, Zang, Uprising, Nobody Special, CooLDoG


The name that comes up everytime? NS. Everytime he waits for the next wagon to get up to speed before he finally moves of his. Even after his vote isn't doing anything. Wingless is on this moment not voting anybody, which is just as bad, but on Chess he went off fast enough. Uprising is still there in 2 of the three cases, just as Cooldog. TL is the special case again, 2/3, but he obvious can't vote himself, so a 100% score too. A bit less valuable as the 100% by NS. And NS lingers on TL: who would keep his vote on a buddy, after he bussed them? Nobody.

Do you get where I'm coming from? NS his voting behaviour is scum, by the book. An almost perfect fit. I do admit I didn't analyse any other wagon except my own like this, but I did get exactly this already in my reread: NS votes precisely as you would expect conservative scum to vote.

[Charnel]

@Charnel: You've suggested that the TL wagon is (essentially) an attempt by someone to save someone else, if I understand correctly. So tell us who you think the two someones are.

Context please. I have used multiple times that scum want to save themselve by getting a mislynch. Those two things are pretty much the same to me. Scum who's goal it is to survive is going to support wagons that lead to a mislynch.

I believe TL's wagon is such a wagon, since I can't explain the support for it coming so easily, on a case that wasn't that good.

NS votes precisely as someone who didn't care anymore would as well >_<
TL and NS are also definitely not scum together. That much I think we can all agree on.

No. That is simply not true. Lurkers don't end up on the big wagons, time after time. Here we are looking at someone who is doing it intendly.

The second is clear. With already 1 killing role, if NS is antitown, he is mafia (as this is a mini). You'd expect, with this behaviour, that he wouldn't be bussing.

And you are convincing your own reads are correct time after time. There is no negative feedback to your thoughts. Everything reinforces the already existing idea's

[Charnel]

>_>

That's ...irritating.

Nope, the most irritating was that Chess explained it in the post after it. Fake hammers are no fun when they are explained right away. The intention is to see what happens after a hammer, how people would react. Now we won't get any reads from it. You are a null-read on this, though I do get from this that you don't read the thread very well

[Charnel]

and some are scum. Antitown people don't have an intention. NS does show that. Meaning that he isn't merely "antitown", but that he is scum.

reread and vote for the person I think scum then. Why are we lynching TL for information purposes and for your ego?

[Charnel]

I will probably understand you

better

when you make those three words into a sentence.

[Charnel]

How the fuck is a TL lynch informationless?

I haven't said that. None is, I believe. It is not a reason for a lynch.

again: why are we lynching TL for information purposes and for your ego?

[Charnel]

Btw, I do agree that Uprising is likely scum, but I want TL today for two reasons.
1) It clarifies whether Uprising is a better lynch than Zang.
2) I'm most likely dead tonight, since there's not a goddamn chance I'm getting misslynched ever, so I want this to be 3 and out.

because you don't seem to get what I'm refering to.

[Charnel]

@Charnel: You've suggested that the TL wagon is (essentially) an attempt by someone to save someone else, if I understand correctly. So tell us who you think the two someones are.

Context please. I have used multiple times that scum want to save themselve by getting a mislynch. Those two things are pretty much the same to me. Scum who's goal it is to survive is going to support wagons that lead to a mislynch.

copying the question and the initial answer. It is actually right. The actual answer with names I tried to find here: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 1#p2603081

[Charnel]

and concrete: I think NS is trying to save his ass. Apart from that it happens to him too, TL seemed to do it too. Uprising and CooLDoG are doing the same.

And this is only an indication from the votecounts. CooLDoG has actually admitted that his 180 on chesskid was purely selfpreservative. Uprising's complete play in this game is focused on not giving anyone a reason to vote him for a mistake. NS has been aggressively pursuing lynches of others without actually arguing that they were scum. (ok, I have only one example from the top of my head). The only one of these that isn't obvious from the thread is TL. He hasn't been very conservative. I forgot Wing on purpose, as he is lurking, but he did move away from one of the wagons fast.

[Charnel]

CoolDoG's self preservation mentality for early day 1 makes sense as vig, just saying.

Do you see me voting him? And it didn't, but a vigclaim is only done by the SK, and a SK wouldn't tell us he messed up. He should have stayed with his reads, vote by them. On that moment he was for a moment one of the most townie players. It got him

one

vote from being lynched. Acting scummy as town is quite stupid, it actually gets you in problems.

[Charnel]

and I forgot the conclusion: the VC-analysis is working.

[Charnel]

and some are scum. Antitown people don't have an intention. NS does show that. Meaning that he isn't merely "antitown", but that he is scum.

reread and vote for the person I think scum then. Why are we lynching TL for information purposes and for your ego?

After reading Nobody Special's ISO, I disagree. He joined

every

bandwagon, and only provided legitimate reasons for the first two. But that doesn't actually show any intent, other than a lack of intent of putting effort into a vote. Actively trying to start bandwagons on one things...being on a bandwagon is another.

[Charnel]

I wait for Charnel's investigation report then.

I haven't been blocked, but by the nature of my role, I don't know if I should claim if someone else is a vanilla or a PR.

I have used the flavour cop part of my role.

[Charnel]

I have used the flavour cop part of my role.

Why would you use that part of your role? You are aware, right, that that part is clearly favorable for scum?

FoS: Charnel

no, I am not. Both roles would have given scum the information who was a power role.

This part doesn't have the problem that somebody chooses not to do something, got blocked or something like that, and is just as good at finding out fakeclaims. On the of chance that I would find an incriminating rolename, I did this. The fact that you haven't heard my result means that I haven't got such a result. And because there is absolutely no reason to claim here and now, I'm not going to do that.

Enigma nominated for chainsaw FoS.

Tasky, explain the vote.

You are aware that Tasky uses your (faulty) reasoning, right?

[Charnel]

Because apparently I don't find NS "obv town", but hey I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one.
Chess has gone a bit delusional I think.

CHESSKID, DRINK A VIRTUAL GLASS OF WATER, AND DON'T COME BACK BEFORE YOU THINK YOU ARE CALM AGAIN

Seriously. You pushed through a townlynch, ON NO CASE OF ANY VALUE. You even try to make it sound like it was something good, as it saved NS, the person half of the game wanted to lynch. Now, you are voting the single most reasonable person in the game. I'm quite certain that scum wouldn't be so stupid to go for the towniest player in the game already on day 2, but as town you are doing a very very poor job.

vote uprising

. Lets not forget. Chess may be stupid, and he might be scum, but lets not forget the players that are lurking.

[Charnel]

Stole it and corrected for NS's fakehammer.

[6] chesskid3 -

TheLonging

, Moospiker,

Nobody Special

,

Wingless

, CooLDoG, Zang

[6] CooLDoG - Tasky, chesskid3,

Wingless

, Uprising,

Nobody Special

, Exe

[6]

Nobody Special

- CooLDoG, Exe, Slaxx, Tasky, chesskid3, Moospiker

[6] Moospiker - Uprising,

TheLonging

, Exe, CooLDoG,

Nobody Special

,

Wingless

[7]

TheLonging

- chesskid3, Tasky, Zang, Uprising,

Nobody Special

, CooLDoG, Exe

Taking Cooldog as not-mafia, one thing to note is how Uprising seems to follow chesskid3. It is a point in favor of chesskid, not of Uprising. Uprising has only "lead" one wagon, but this is not the complete truth: her vote had been there for 5 pages, and she never had the intention to get people on the wagon. TL jumped on later and it was Exe that finally got the wagon on me started. Most people that dropped off the NS wagon came to me. My wagon was surpringly filled with townies, but seen Moo's play I can't blame you. A lurker lynch would have been quite good. The only one that really deserves attention is Uprising, who parked her vote on me.

From yesterday's post about lingering players on wagons:

[4] chesskid3 -

TheLonging

, Moospiker,

Nobody Special

, CooLDoG

[4] Charnel - Uprising,

TheLonging

,

Nobody Special

,

Wingless

The TL lynch was with the uprising case being better the third piece of information. I don't blame Exe for hammering,but I do blame the players that joined so quickly on a shitty case to stay there. Tasky seems good now, and he pronounced that he was in favor of the TL lynch, so ok, he is the towniest of the bunch, but Uprising, Zang aren't looking good.

The next notable thing is how often CooLDog and Exe come up.

Cooldog, as soon as you start killing someone I really want to stay, you are going to go

.


Then, as a last thing, we have the problem of the people not doing a thing. These were the active wagons, so it pays to look at the counterwagons. The players not on those weren't trying to play the game. And who were not voting?

with chesskid's L-1

[2] Nobody Special - Exe, chesskid3

Not Voting (2): bv310, Uprising

with chesskid's second L-1

[2] CooLDoG - Tasky, chesskid3

Not Voting (2): bv310, Uprising

with Cooldog's L-1

[3] chesskid3 -

TheLonging

, Moospiker, CooLDoG

Not Voting (1): bv310

with NS's L-1

[2] Moospiker - Uprising,

TheLonging

[2] Enigma -

Wingless

, Zang

with Charnels L-1

Not Voting (4): Tasky, Slaxx, chesskid3, Moospiker

with TL's L-1

[3] Uprising - Enigma, Charnel, Lrdwhyt
Not Voting (1):

Wingless

(exe hammered)

who are we missing? So, the inactives in each caseZ (corrected for mod's lazyness to replace people):

Enigma, Tasky and Uprising.
Uprising, Enigma and Exe (because Chess switched, two different results)

Enigma, Zang

Enigma and NS

Tasky, Slaxx, chesskid3, Moospiker, Zang and Enigma

Wingless and Zang

The obvious weird thing is the absolute lazyness during Moospikers L-1.

Then

sorry chesskid

. Your reasons might be wrong, but Enigma seriously needs another look. He is strategically avoiding wagons. With so many L-1 wagons, without hammer, one might think that scum didn't support them (a normal lynch would have been there usually, esspecially seen the amount of time people were at L-1. Scum were either on the wagon, or didn't dare to join at any moment.

Zang and Enigman come up badly from this, they lurk/active lurk.


I'm completely aware that this is a jumbled mess of data. Please ask what you don't understand, and I'll make a separate post about it (that would have been the smart move anyway.)

[Charnel]

Look, if I'm scum, I will make sure that I have valid reasons too. However, you were not actively participating in the game. It is active lurking.

and you really picked out the last counterwagon to show you are different (while in 4 cases, you were nowhere).

So, charnel's list. I'm leaving CooLDog off, because he is of no interest to me at the moment, and my stance on him should be clear to everybody. I don't have an idea where to post him on my list.

Uprising
Zang
Enigma
Exe
Tasky
Chesskid
Lrd

[Charnel]

I thought TL was scum until the flip. I thought Enigma was town, until his horribad D2 start. My analysis puts the scum in pools, now it's about lynching them.

Do you agree with 1 scum on the wagon only, since that wagon was going to look like shit in retrospect?

You

knew

the wagon was going to look like shit. I did. At that very moment that you said that indeed you rallyed people with a bad case, in an aggressive way. You knew.

And the question is a bad one. The fact that you are on the wagon makes this question a rhetoric one. Either scum loved to hide behind your backs or you are scum and your buddies followed you onto the wagon. I don't know. But you ask people about it

to clear yourself

.

You are starting to look worse then Enigma at the moment.

[Charnel]

Either TL was scum

OR

TL was town, and the wagon was going to look like shit.

Either fucking way, it's a goldmine of information.

Your "back off or you're next" threat is noted.

YOU ARE NEXT.

Vote Chesskid

. Seriously, why the strawman. Why is it a goldmine of information when you are directing everybody into believing only one scum could have been on the wagon and of course it certainly isn't you? Let me get some quotes:

If you are town, it's your incredibly scummy play that got you lynched, and I accept no blame whatsoever for the misslynch.
I believe you are scum, however, as evidenced by voting for you and pushing for your lynch.

If Uprising is scum, he's bussing right now. If TL flips scum, NS is cleared and Wingless is almost certainly scum for avoiding the wagon when he had the chance to get on _before_ it had momentum.
My case is "weak" because his ISO has no actual content. All he's done is blather on about buddying and contradict himself every other post.

COoldog, if TL flips town (which would seriously surprise me), Wingless/Uprising/NS should be near the top of the vig list.

Seriously, chesskid, you didn't think TL was going to flip scum. You were making damn sure you wouldn't be blamed for it if it happened. The fact that NS is in your viglist in the last quote shows your opportunism. You thought he was town, remember? You aren't honestly scumhunting here, you are trying to clear the TL wagon, which you were on.

[Charnel]

If you are town, it's your incredibly scummy play that got you lynched, and I accept no blame whatsoever for the misslynch.
I believe you are scum, however, as evidenced by voting for you and pushing for your lynch.

Stop avoiding the points made against you! Why did you make this post other then to try to stay out of the towns hands after a TL mislynch?

[Charnel]

I like Exe's mentality. Don't be scared for a mislynch, but go with your reads.

I haven't done any scumhunting today because I've been busy defending myself. But I would like everybody to tell me why I am scummy because you are the only person who really explained.

we even had to wait for your defense. You lurked. You have lurked all game, and have basically had no interaction with the game. I'd like to lynch you.

However, on chesskid. He softclaimed. That means he doesn't have to fullclaim, but gets the benefits. Scummy as hell. The fact that he tried to talk the TL lynch straight while he was already covering for himself when TL didn't even flip is even scummier. I'm quite convinced on Chesskid, and lets be honest, Zang would just be a lurker lynch.

[Charnel]

However, on chesskid. He softclaimed. That means he doesn't have to fullclaim, but gets the benefits. Scummy as hell. The fact that he tried to talk the TL lynch straight while he was already covering for himself when TL didn't even flip is even scummier. I'm quite convinced on Chesskid, and lets be honest, Zang would just be a lurker lynch.

Can't we force him to fullclaim or would that be futile at this point?

It is not the point. It is the fact that he doesn't want to quote his role pm, but does want to get the full benefits of a claim. He doesn't give the information we could use to figure out if he is right. Softclaims are not protown (scum is going to notice, and scum will know that it is true, and will act on that), however from a scum point of view they make sense. You have a smaller risk to get caught in a fakeclaim.

So I don't want him to claim. He already showed he doesn't want to claim, though he does want to be reckognized as a powerrole (so we won't lynch him because of that).



But seriously, why is everybody looking like scum? I could really use a reread, but I'm terribly short on townreads. Only Tasky, Exe and Lrdwhyt are really town to me. Enigma's voting pattern makes no sense as town. Chess lead a stupid lynch and is trying to look town, together with a soft pr claim which he doesn't want to make solid. Uprising is passive, Zang plain lurks. Oh, CooLDoG was likely town too from his early game posts. The only reason we think he might be the SK is his claim.

[Charnel]

Why does Lrdwhyt get a town read when his voting patterns are the same as mine? Hell he has posted barely anything thus far.
Not to mention your voting pattern isn't the most impressive either.

Kinda seems like a forced read, which only scum would be required to do.

Charnel still sits easily on top of my scum reads.

Lrdwhyt's slot has been played by 3 players with large gaps in between. However, if every player on that slot reads town to me individually, that is quite a strong tell in favor of them.

And I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by my voting pattern. In your case, you have been off any wagon pretty much all game. Can you give me an explanation for that? Were all L-1 wagons on day 1 on town? Was every counterwagon except for Uprising? Or were you holding off because you didn't want to look like you were wagonning?

So please, if you come with such a post, give some evidence please. I have already made an earlier post about your votes and your piont about Lrdwhyt is really baseless.

[Charnel]

Don't like being called scum do ya?

Lrdwhyt case.
1. Tell me how you find bv310 town? He has 2 contentless posts. If you are that good, we need to all stop playing mafia because you will always win.
2. Slaxx looks alright, but I still find his rolecop argument against you very strong. Beside that and a few posts on my stupidity with the doc claim, he hasn't said much.
3. Lrdywhyt has exactly the same voting and argument pattern as me (Uprising). So if you view this as town, why the flip on me?

I'm calling that you are scum, in fact I'm pretty sure of it, combined with Moo's play. If every player on that slot reads scum to me individually, that is quite a strong tell in favor of them.

Exactly. I esspecially don't like being called scum when you are wrong. You are very different from lrd.
1. Indeed, I was wrong here. BV hasn't done a thing.
2. Slaxx was (and is) obv town to me in the way he speaks
3. Lrdwhyt's first posts felt really good.

However, and that I think is problematic, you are trying to clear yourself by proving that you do the same as Lrdwhyt's slot. You clearly haven't.

And I'm afraid I don't know what you mean by my voting pattern. In your case, you have been off any wagon pretty much all game. Can you give me an explanation for that? Were all L-1 wagons on day 1 on town? Was every counterwagon except for Uprising? Or were you holding off because you didn't want to look like you were wagonning?

So please, if you come with such a post, give some evidence please. I have already made an earlier post about your votes and your piont about Lrdwhyt is really baseless.

I wonder why you missed this. I would like a reaction on it. You seem to have avoided it.

My intentions for day 1 have been clear the whole time. Just because I didn't support some retarded WIFOMy case (which turned out to be wrong anyways) doesn't make me scum.
My argument makes perfect logical sense against his argument against me tyvm.

Look, why do you strawman me by focussing this on the TL lynch? You weren't on a single wagon that day, except on Uprisings at the end of the day. And there were a lot of active wagons. Why were you avoiding them?

[Charnel]

Charnel actually read the thread, I explained why my behavior during Day 1, so I don't need to fabricate some stupid reason now as to why I played like I did then. I noted who I was suspicious, and those would obviously been the people I would like to vote for with my own reasons.
Sorry I'm not some mindless bandwagoning twat who jumps onto a wagon with zero fucking reason which is how most the bandwagons formed. Obviously that is much more pro-town than logical voting. HERPADERPA. (in case my sarcasm wasn't blunt enough).

Lets get back to the questions. Do you agree with me that of all the L-1 wagons and counterwagons at least one scum. Only one wagon you supported of all the wagons that formed (and that were a lot), and it was by the end when the TL wagon was going to go through. You didn't want to be accused of wagonning and kept your vote out away from the other votes. Do you agree with me that, except for a scum bussing here and there, you need townies on a bandwagon? You didn't want to lynch scum, and I don't like that.

Your early case on me revolved purely (<-READ) around my voting patterns. I pointed out that my voting patterns were very similar to other people who you claimed town. You and your scum buddies somehow manipulated that into me flailing around when being accused of being scummy. I'm not saying I'm the same as Lrdy, I'm saying by your retarded logic that my voting patterns (<-KEY WORD) were scummy, you contradicted yourself with your town reads. (PS: contradictions are scummy).

Btw you managed to be in the same boat as chess yesterday, stating multiple times you thought I was town. So you somehow think Lrdy's early posts are good, ohh wait you said mine are very town too (multiple times mind you). Nice fucking contradiction here guys.

Your voting pattern yesterday was:
Uprising, NS (because CD says he won't shoot him), back to uprising until the remainder of the day.
You call my voting pattern unimpressive? LOLWOT?

Both NS and Uprising were for the lynch, and they both were wagons that could have made it. My problem with you is that you don't seem to want to support a lynch. And using against me that I replaced in late into day 1 is lame. It is more. It is sad.

It's the same about Lrd. In my analysis, a few wagons were missed by him because BV wasn't there. It is quite sad you are trying to say you are the same as a slot that wasn't here for such a long time.



And then the last sad thing. You say I'm not consistent in my reads. I don't care. I bet you have been awefully consistent, but my reads can change on every small bit of information I get. If I suddenly think someone I thought town before is now likely scum, I'm not going to hide that to stay "consistent". The fact that you misrep my case continiously, and that you are avoiding my key points against you confirms my read. Chess can wait:

unvote vote Enigma

[Charnel]

summary of my reasoning for my vote (as it is in different shapes in multiple posts now):

Enigma supported only one serious wagon day 1, and that was the counterwagon the the TL lynch, a TL lynch the game seemed to be set on.
With the enormous amounts of (counter)wagons day one, Enigma was almost certainly trying "bandwagonning" to look town, and trying to avoid being on a mislynch.
Enigma isn't town, because town knows he has to be on the good wagons. With the amount of wagons day 1, some had to be good.


Then, based on Enigma's reactions:

Enigma states that Lrd hasn't voted much, and that he is practically the same as Enigma, but that I think Lrd town and Enigma scum. Lrd is the replacee of a slot which has suffered from great inactivity.
Enigma states that I'm scum for the same reasons that I call him scum (this is OMGUS-like, but whatever). He "proves" this by stating that I have only made 2 changes of votes day 1. This is not surprising since I replaced in at the end of day 1, and it is in general beyond the point because I voted both Uprising and NS for the lynch. The NS wagon was a serious one, but Chesskid destroyed it.

[Charnel]

I am willing to hammer Zang, but I think the cases on Chesskid and Enigma show much more potential. I've made points against them that show they are scum, and Zang is just a lurker. I don't know Zang, I don't know if he does that as town and as scum. I would prefer someone else, but I get little support for the cases on them. An uprising lynch wouldn't be much better then a Zanglynch, I think.

[Charnel]

ok guys, if you are set on it, and with the protown force on the Zang wagon, I'm confident you are right.

Hammer Zang

Tomorrow if Zang flips scum, Uprising should be lynched, as his total lack of votes would show that things didn't go her way.

[Charnel]

EBWOP.

Tomorrow if Zang flips scum, Uprising should be lynched, as her total lack of votes during the end of the day would show that things didn't go her way.

[Charnel]

Ok, seen the kill flavors did CooLDoG not shoot. This means that mafia killed tasky and someone else killed Exe. Seen that Exe was regarded protown, and seen that two vig like roles is really unlikely, we are facing a 3-2-1

Town has to lynch mafia to win, and needs some luck at night. If we don't lynch the SK, I think CooLDoG can't shoot again (since that would leave only 2 players, and no chance on a last lynch)

CooLDoG is confirmed. There aren't two SK's ( that would be silly ) , and an SK would have shot the previous night.
This means that out of Enigma/Uprising/Lrd and Chesskid, there are 2 mafia and 1 sk.

I'd like massclaim on this moment.

[Charnel]

Not only did you just falsely clear yourself without providing any information from your night results with which to USE to clear yourself, you just pigeonholed 3 people in the game into 3 scum slots.
Nice going, brah.

Also, there are other things that can kill than SKs and Vigs, you know. *wink*

Count again.

First, I don't need prove for my townness. I am town. Then,

4

people are left with cooldog confirmed town.

Get your facts straight. Do you really not understand why people think you are stupid?


Jester with a kill is too bastard for this mod.



wait, Chesskid, you claim to have shot Exe? I'd like you to fullclaim first. Then you can choose who goes next. (popcorn)

[Charnel]

chesskid3

, you are a

Doctor

.

You may protect another player, preventing any attempted kills on them. You will not be notified if your protect stops a kill.

You win when all threats to the town are eliminated.

Please confirm via PM with a paraphrase of your role's abilities.

I protected Exe last night though, so I have to be an insane doc.

I can confirm this claim. My day 1 investigation was on chesskid, and I got "doctor" back. I didn't know the allignment for sure, seen the theme and I wasn't very happy with the result. I don't think scum would be so daring to fakeclaim protection on someone who died.

[Charnel]

I know the rolename. If he fakeclaimed, I would have caught him. It's easy as that. When Chesskid suddenly claimed a kill, well, I thought I had him. I wanted to catch him, but then we got this.

My other result is the confirmation that CooLDoG is not the SK. I thought that would help the town most, having a confirmed vig.


Now I wonder, why were you so eager to know what my result was before you claimed? Worried that you might be caught in a fakeclaim? Claim now plz.

[Charnel]

Hi, its been obvious who your alt. All one has to do is read some of your posts from the Queue.

Previously the thread creator could delete those. After the transition I couldn't anymore.

Lrd I think is protown. Remember how you tried to make yourself protown by saying you were playing alike him?

Uprising I have thought scum all game. Chess was a solid neutral, he could go every way (gutsy scum, VI, normal town who just likes to force a game), and CooLDoG was the SK or the vig.

I don't understand why you protected Chess, who may, from your point of view, very well be scum on

WIFOM

arguments because people might frame you by killing him. From my point of view nobody would really mind if Chess died, I really doubt anybody would want him in Lylo after his TL lynch.

[Charnel]

Enigma, who should claim next?

[Charnel]

[6]

chesskid3

-

TheLonging

, Moospiker,

Nobody Special

,

Wingless

,

CooLDoG

,

Zang

[6] CooLDoG -

Tasky

,

chesskid3

,

Wingless

, Uprising,

Nobody Special

,

Exe

[6]

Nobody Special

-

CooLDoG

,

Exe

, Slaxx,

Tasky

,

chesskid3

, Moospiker

[6] Moospiker - Uprising,

TheLonging

,

Exe

,

CooLDoG

,

Nobody Special

,

Wingless

[7]

TheLonging

-

chesskid3

,

Tasky

,

Zang

, Uprising,

CooLDoG

,

Nobody Special

,

Exe

[5]

Zang

-

Exe

, Enigma,

Tasky

,

CooLDoG

,

chesskid3

Damn that is a lot of green. With 3 scum at least (and quite likely, 8-3-1 isn't that popular anymore), we are missing quite a bit of votes there. The fact that no wagon made it because scum didn't join them. Uprising is on the more stupid of the wagons. (CooLDoG and TL), but Lrd/Slaxx are only one one, and Enigma is only on Zang. If two of these are scum, it would make more sense that we had such a big amount of L-1 wagons on day 1.

[Charnel]

Enigma, that is seriously buddying on CooLDoG. Chesskid actually claimed that it was strange that the player he protected died (which is why he claimed that he must be insane)

The fact that all this is in the open but that Enigma still buddies on you for this, and even asks Chesskid to explain is beyond silly. It is scummy.

FoS Enigma

I intend to convert this to a vote after massclaim has finished.

[Charnel]

Lrd, claim please


I accidentaly was under the wrong account when I posted. I had rather avoided posting wrong again. It really happens everytime I play with Charnel.

[Charnel]

One of the docs is scum. One of the vanilla's is too. Mod would be crazy to let a role confirm players. 3 vanilla's died. Lrd is left. I'm going to take a serious look into him, because VT=town would be serious bad modding.

1/3 for the docs is about fair. I would gamble that it is Enigma, but lets not forget the meta information someone had on Uprising. Eutanizing would make sense as a Doc SK.

I'm going to try to find some stuff about Exe and Lrd.

[Charnel]

Lrd has only quoted Exe's theory post and asked if he understood it right.

Slaxx only posted that Exe was probably town, or that they agreed.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think iso post 63 is the first where Exe mentions Lrd. He thinks him very scummy... but doesn't vote. He prefers Zang. He replies to Lrd's theory question. And that is it.

Both had barely any interactions, and Exe had a lot of interactions with players. This does make sense.

Enigma isn't Exe's buddy. They really wouldn't have a reason to get into a distancing fight. Both were far from a lynch. Uprising... might actually. Chess-exe seem to be doing the same thing, but I think Exe bandwagonned rather then that it was a planned thing.

[Charnel]

on the other hand, the SK side. Uprising SK really fits. Different meta then as town. She's timid, that might point to having all responsibility for the win, and the kill flavour being doc-like.

On this moment I would go for Chess town, Lrd mafia, Uprising SK, Enigma town.

[Charnel]

My standard modding meta is to notify any player with a night action if they are roleblocked. Maybe Parama is different, *shrug*.
I just think your lol there's an SK and I got roleblocked and the scum kill didn't go through on N1 is a lot more of a ridiculous idea than "CK is an insane doc". Especially, you know, considering how it's a bastard mod.

percentage roles aren't very MS. Neither is telling people they are blocked. I know almost no mod who does that here. Enigma's idea is a little better, I think.

Anyway, I think this is our best shot today:

Vote uprising

The role of SK fits her play perfectly.

[Charnel]

Charnel, are you mad?
We can't lynch the SK today, that's handing mafia a win unless our vig kills correctly. Really?

unvote

I had a good reason why I thought the setup was 9-2-1 in stead of 8-3-1 (in that case this loses, in 9-2-1 it wins), but I can't remember it now, as it is quite late. It had something to do with the amount of people that were confirmed, I thought. I'll get back to you on this in 8 hours, or so.

[Charnel]

the reasoning why it must be 9-2-1 was simple. 8-3-1 would more then likely have a BP SK, and would already be lost by the town. 9-2-1 is winnable, so we have to take that chance.

[Charnel]

that would need changing kill flavors, or a percentage role for you. Percentage roles barely exist on MS. Only newbies try to put them into their setups, and parama isn't a newby.

Charnel, are you mad?
We can't lynch the SK today, that's handing mafia a win unless our vig kills correctly. Really?

and you don't seem to be that convinced yourself. CooLDoG really has a point about you.

[Charnel]

okay... Other then a lack of content I find chesskid a better target. Ups posts don't seem to give off a huge scum read as some people implied. I have another post comeing....

If you weren't that convinced of yourself, and you would get the SK role, what would you do?

[Charnel]

It's a bastard mod >_< Sigh. So your theory is that mafia kill got blocked n1, there's an SK, and my protect did nothing because someone blocked me?
Meeeeeep. It's a long shot. We'll see, I guess.

Scum do not deserve a win in this game, you know that.

You can't excuse everything with "bastard mod". nothing in this game has given any reason to think that Parama would introduce percentage roles. They aren't necessary from a modding point of view, and in general are bad modding because it gives the players a random element to cope with. In this case a random element that might very well be decisive in this game.

I really don't understand what information you have to makes you think it is a 50/50 kind of role.

[Charnel]

What's your definition of bastard mod?

Don't know actually. VT's don't imply percentages roles. It doesn't make sense.




Wait, CooLDoG, why are you voting for a semi confirmed player?

[Charnel]

VOTE: uprising

obvscum.

[Charnel]

I'm still happy to maintain my vote on Charnel after careful consideration.
Has anyone noticed his change of playstyle towards me?
Just yesterday he was trying to push forth a case on me, now that by some freak accident, his partner has died he is trying to connect with me (given I do have a tendency to attack on people who attack me, this is exactly what he is trying to avoid). I'm not satisfied with his night investigation choices, nor am I with his play from yesterday.

Can you please stop tunneling on me?

Every single thing I do is scum in your eyes. I think Uprising is scum, you come to the conclusion that must have something to do with Exe dying. It's absurd.

Now, and I know this is out of your character, but could you try to go to a lynch? Either make a case on me and try to convince people, or move to somewhere else where you might get a lynch. Cause what you post till now (I don't like him attacking me yesterday!) isn't going to convince anyone.

Cause I won't have you voteparking again.

[Charnel]

CooLDoG, get off chess, will you? We aren't getting everywhere.

To the others, place your bets. I know where mine are.


We have one person in our mids who has done 0 scumhunting. Who has only cared about defending herself. Who has definately not played by her town meta, and for some reason, is still alive. I really don't understand why I'm the only one advocating the Uprising lynch. She isn't a newby. She isn't shy. She is quite capable of scumhunting, but not here! It is very very simple. Uprising is scum.

Just to illustrate. The posts like these:

I'll post more after class.

are more numerous then the posts where Uprising scumhunts. Enigma might be a smooth talker, and Chess a fool, but Uprising is obvious scum.

[Charnel]

People call me obvious scum as town as well. x.x
I'm sorry school is taking a lot of time. My partner did NOTHING on our assignment so I had to do it all just now. I'm very sorry.


I need to spend time rereading. I didn't expect Exe to be scum.

Because of how Enigma and Exe were acting, I'm feeling that was not a bus. LrdWhyt has still fallen off of the planet so I cannot possibly judge him at this moment. This is partly because the other two people who were him confused the hell out of me. CooLDoG is town imho.
Chesskid may be scum, but I'm not positive. I do not know his meta and he appears to be jumping about a fair bit.
Charnel is likely a scum but I cannot put it into words.

I HAVE A FEW PROBLEMS WITH THIS.

A. no vote
B. no case
C. excuses, excuses
D. you don't have good reasons, but you are perfectly happy to suspect the person that votes you, and it feels like you are waiting for reasons from Enigma to vote me.
E. also I note your buddying on Enigma. That fits perfectly.

[Charnel]

People call me obvious scum

as town as well.

x.x

I didn't at first notice what was wrong with this sentence, but now I found it. The bolded is a scumslip. She talks from the point where she knows she isn't town here.

confirm vote Uprising

[Charnel]

People call me obvious scum

as town as well.

x.x

I didn't at first notice what was wrong with this sentence, but now I found it. The bolded is a scumslip. She talks from the point where she knows she isn't town here.

confirm vote Uprising

Seriously, chess, no. This post can only be made when Uprising knows she isn't town this time.

From the town point of view a "people call me obvious scum regardless of what I am", or "people call me always obvscum" both would make sense. But not a "people call me obvscum too when I'm not". It implies that she is this scum time.

I give you, I only noticed because I watched Uprising more closely then, for instance, CooLDoG. But I wouldn't post a scumslip if I didn't believe in it. I'm very capable of seeing if a post could be made both as scum and as town, and this phrase is much more likely to be made as scum

in this way

.

[Charnel]

So your kill can't be stopped basically

He'll save the other person if that person was killed.

CooLDoG, we really don't want to plan our actions. That way the SK can choose who he wants to kill. If we keep it secret... and he picks a doctor that targets him, he gets shot!

[Charnel]

unless another doctor saves him :/

Charnel, you got the memo about using track, right?

I plan to track scum. And hope that I was right about the SK and that the SK targets me

Have you read my answer to you about Uprisings scumslip? CooLDoG said it made him understand what I meant.

[Charnel]

@charnel, I'm not asking to plan targets I'm just pointing out that if two docs (including myself) save the same person then, even if the sk targets a doc (under the char theory), the person will be saved.

This could be solved. If only one PR but you targets someone, and this is decided here in the thread, then we know for sure the situation above doesn't happen.

However, I don't think this is a good plan. We don't know if it actually works that way.

[Charnel]

People call me obvious scum

as town as well.

x.x

I didn't at first notice what was wrong with this sentence, but now I found it. The bolded is a scumslip. She talks from the point where she knows she isn't town here.

Clearly, that's NOT what I meant.

sorry, but that's why it's a slip. You were aware of not being town when you posted this.

[Charnel]

Look, I can understand OMGUS feelings. I have them too sometimes, and I act on them too often for my own liking. But the core of that is always that I can't understand why the other person is wrong. "They must be scum if they can't see I'm town!" or sort like thoughts. Things like that happen, and they can be done by town.

But then the below.

I know I keep posting excuses.


I have no excuse for my behaviour. I'm aware I'm scummy as hell. Also, I'm not going to disagree with Charnel's case on me. Everything he says is true except the fact I'm scum. However, I cannot prove that.

As for now, I'm going to avoid a blatant OMGUS vote.

What surprises me is that you can perfectly see my point. You understand why I think you are scum. In fact, throughout this whole post, you never even suspect me; you think I did a good job at investigating you, my conclusion is just wrong, but you can't prove that.

Your vote doesn't make sense. You don't have any OMGUS feelings, as evidenced by your posts. But you do OMGUS vote. Is this a plain tactical vote?

[Charnel]

ok so 3/4 of me is like NO WAY CAN UPRISING BE SCUM IT WOULD JUST BE TOO OBVIOUS

and then the other quarter of me is like I WILL NOT LOSE TO THE MOST OBVIOUS SCUM IN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF THE UNIVERSE

Too scummy fallacy, chess. Really. Uprising is capable of playing better, if you compare her to NS or Shotty for example. Just look at how reasonable she stays in the post I quoted.

[Charnel]

SIGH

As I read CooLDoG, he isn't going to support your wagon. I'm not going to. Enigma (obv) isn't going to. Enigma won't be lynched.

So. You need a better case on Enigma, or, a new case on someone else, or you state why Uprising is town, or you say that you think Uprising is scum and you vote her.

That are basically all your options.

[Charnel]

Can we lynch Enigma tomorrow?

Lol. I'm not going to setup any lynch without seeing my result (if I track someone, I'm still not convinced on that), and today's flip. It's simply not clever not to take every information into consideration.

[Charnel]

he first has to read the whole thread. He hasn't caught up yet, seen his post. Give him a bit of time, Dog.

[Charnel]

I'm not convinced about Uprising, which is surprising seeing as I lead a witch hunt against her D1!

It's actually more that I still find Charnel scummy as, Lrd is now easily up there also in terms of who I'm willing to see lynched.
Charnel's play and backflip on D2 and his night target choices still scream to me as a scum with a fake claim.

I want to see Charnel lynched today.

Enigma. This above post is a summarry of his reads from half a week/ a week ago.

[Charnel]

the problem is, I'm not. While you have implied that you aren't town. It really isn't so surprising that you tactically voted me (as the post before your vote showed that you didn't have OMGUS feelings, but were quite understanding), and I even don't blame you for not trying to make a case. It really isn't worth the trouble, or is it?

[Charnel]

Charnel please inform why you backflipped from you being convinced I am scum to not even mentioning me as scummy for most of the posts today.

Well, the arguments on you stand. However, both Lrd's and Uprisings play are clearly worse. After massclaim, I decided I would think you are town, that Uprising is the most scummy, and that if Lrd didn't get here, he would be in trouble either tonight, or tomorrow. Because, the point on your play, is only a single one. You don't join bandwagons, and possibly (though I still think this is weird), you are quite new to the game and they told you too often that bandwagonning is bad. The simplest explanation is that you are scum, but that doesn't really make sense in-game, so chances are that explanation is actually the truth.

If you had to do the same for Uprising, you need too many excuses for the scummy things in her play. So many, that the simplest explanation by far is that she is scum.

[Charnel]

you need to be lynched. We aren't waiting for anything anymore, and you are obvious enough.

Get those votes in please. Two more and we have a lynch.

Do you need a hint for the nightkill, CooLDoG, or is it obvious enough?

[Charnel]

I think we agree.

Can we lynch Enigma tomorrow?

You keep saying this, but I don't see you voting Enigma. What are you waiting for? An opportunity to hammer in a mislynch without being shot to death by the vigilante?

Still going with Uprising's regression in playing ability being a change in affiliation, not something else that I can't think of. Would like to hear answers to my questions first, though.

These are rhetoric questions, Lrd.

Inactivity is antitown. Action is protown. We don't have enough action in this game at the moment. Vote please.

[Charnel]

I'm not voting because I don't trust Lrd.

Lrd is slowing the game down, purposefully. You are helping him this way. The solution is simply. Lynch Uprising, shoot Lrd.

I'm particulary surprised that Enigma and Uprising both say: "lrd would be a good vote too... but eh... I'm staying on charnel!"

I'm totally missing why I'm more scummy then Lrd. It are two OMGUS based votes, and only Enigma has shown that such feelings existed. For Uprising it was a calculated tactical move. So can we please lynch Uprising?

[Charnel]

sorry about that.

[Charnel]

Look, this ghost that I'm scum keeps going round. To the point that people are voting me because it makes sense that I'm scum. It makes sense because I have been under pressure when I came into the game (and moospiker was a hardcore lurker). It makes sense that I'm scum just because people keep saying that I am.

So don't worry chess. You'll know that it isn't the truth in a day or so, when Enigma hasn't hammered. He won't do it. (and this is not some psycholical thing, seen his play this game, he'll won't join the bandwagon, and he'll stay consistent with his reads)

[Charnel]

WELL THEN WE CAN'T EXACTLY GET A LYNCH THEN CAN WE?

why do you think this day is going this slow? Enigma isn't going to move and Lrd is a lurker. We do need one of them.

I can give you two solutions. One is waiting till the deadline and force this lynch through. The other is that one of the other two actually does hammer. I think Enigma should. He had a good point against Uprising (like lrd pointed out) and it is quite obvious that I'm not going to be the lynch.

[Charnel]

Charnel, are you mad?
We can't lynch the SK today, that's handing mafia a win unless our vig kills correctly. Really?

unvote

I had a good reason why I thought the setup was 9-2-1 in stead of 8-3-1 (in that case this loses, in 9-2-1 it wins), but I can't remember it now, as it is quite late. It had something to do with the amount of people that were confirmed, I thought. I'll get back to you on this in 8 hours, or so.

"I forgot the number of scum wasn't public and slipped"
QED.

My next post, 10 hours later (because I slept in that time)

the reasoning why it must be 9-2-1 was simple. 8-3-1 would more then likely have a BP SK, and would already be lost by the town. 9-2-1 is winnable, so we have to take that chance.

What about strawmanning?


Anyway, not that it matters much in such a situation, but I tracked chess. He visited Enigma.

vote Chesskid

[Charnel]

Either way, we can't lose anymore, CooLDoG. Lynch one, kill the other. The worst you can do is draw, so the pressure is not that heavy as usually.

However, even from your point, this can't be hard. Chess's play doesn't make sense as town. VI's are not known for leading lynches, while he did. He isn't a doc, as he claimed that his protect didn't work. There is no role in the game which explains it. Even with the SK gone, he tried to "protect me" to kill me. There is a name for that gambit, claiming a role which is so unlikely that it has to be true, and it is employed by scum.

The more you think about it, the more you know that Chess did indeed make a gutsy fakeclaim, like his entire play is that of gutsy scum. On the fakeclaim: wasn't it suspicious to you that Chess was so long only softclaiming his role, constantly trying to avoid having to claim and ultimately doing this reluctantly? That is not the way town play's as a softclaim is a damn good indicator for scum that he is a PR (it even was a docsoftclaim), so scum would have got all the information it needed, while town didn't. It's now so clear that he only softclaimed to avoid getting lynched. When he was forced to claim in massclaim, he fakeclaimed in such a way that everybody thought "he can't have made that up". Well, he did.

[Charnel]

Actually, I visited you, hoping for another kill.
Tsk tsk.

1. the claim of my action.
2. the reason why you are scum.


and you happen only to react to 1. Why am I not surprised? Because that is the only thing you can easily defend against. Everybody can say "no I didn't kill Enigma". But it's not that easy to defend the antitown TL wagon "to protect NS". Can't explain how your claim really doesn't make sense. It's actually impossible to explain why you softclaimed and kept that situation for such a long time, as that can't be town, but does benefit scum.

[Charnel]

in that case, please start with explaining why you softclaimed.
please also explain why you forced through a TL lynch while there was better support for a Uprising lynch.
could you also make up a reason why your role behaves so "odd". And in case that you think it is a random role, please find a recent game in which such a role was used.

That should keep you busy for some time, so I can reread you

[Charnel]

VOTE: Exe
Stop being in games with me!!11

Why am I not surprised by Chesskid's random vote anyway, that is a very minor tell.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TheLonging
Biggest wagon

why the hell aren't you thinking for yourselves?

Why did you tunnel, right from page one on TL? You can hardly find scum then already, but you never moved off him.

That's really convenient as scum. You have only to make on case, and the player is bound to make some mistakes here and there that you can misuse to get his mislynch.



Chess, why is it that when people accuse you your language always becomes more rude? I see this happening now, but earlier too.

You are the biggest wagon, it would be nice to get a claim or to confirm you town/scum, if the latter it would be a nice lynch.
Rolefishing woo. I softclaimed a PR. Pretty sure that counts as town, Mr.

No it doesn't. Explain this Chess. This post is so bad.

[Charnel]

Either Uprising had a strongman kill, or I am an insane doc. Both are incredibly common roles. I know you aren't actually dumb, you're just playing, so go you. Real convincing.

Find me one example on MS of these roles. I have reviewed a lot of games the last year:

these roles don't exist on MS

Also, way to lie. THere was the most support for an NS lynch. He was a fucking claimed PR, and was obvtown. I got a vanilla claim who was 3x liklier to be scum lynched. You focused on Enigma all of d2, only got Uprising by luck, because Enigma was proving too difficult for you to get. OMGZ TOWNZ FIGHTING BACK PLAN B ABORT ABORT.

When you forced through the TL wagon, the NS wagon had already died, while more then half of the town was ok with an Uprising lynch. There was no reason to lynch TL.

[Charnel]

This is actually quite pathetic. Please go to all the trouble of digging up a bunch of quotes of mine and painting them in a scummy light. I'm just waiting for a hammer that should come in a few hours.

See, this is what I mean. You aren't even bothering to defend. You call me names, and that has to suffice.

CooLDoG, I'm here all day, just post if you need something. I'm wasting my time here otherwise. I'm talking to a wall.

[Charnel]

Either Uprising had a strongman kill, or I am an insane doc. Both are incredibly common roles. I know you aren't actually dumb, you're just playing, so go you. Real convincing.

Find me one example on MS of these roles. I have reviewed a lot of games the last year:

these roles don't exist on MS

Find me a strongman SK or an Insane doc Chess. You can't.

[Charnel]

you keep pointing out that you are town. You have the wrong focus. Scum cares about looking town.

Town cares about finding scum.

I can't blame you, the "passion" must have clouded your mind.

[Charnel]

oh, and the mafia doc is actually a known role. Seen Exe's rolename, I'm really not surprised that you are a doc of some kind.

[Charnel]

Day 1 Vote Count #6

[6] chesskid3

- TheLonging, Moospiker, Nobody Special, Wingless, CooLDoG, Zang

[2] CooLDoG

- Tasky, chesskid3

[1] Nobody Special

- Exe

[1] Uprising

- Enigma

[0] TheLonging

-

[0] Enigma

-

[0] Wingless

-

[0] Tasky

-

[0] Zang

-

[0] Exe

-

[0] Moospiker

-

[0] bv310

-

Not Voting (2): bv310, Uprising

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is 10/31/10 at 9 AM CST.

chesskid3 is at L-1.

Guess who isn't bussing: Exe. It makes sense that chesskid became stuck on L-1. Exe wasn't going to bus, chesskid wasn't going to selfvote, Tasky was waiting for reactions and needed a long day and Enigma wouldn't join a bandwagon. It is one of the few large wagons that Exe wasn't on.

[Charnel]

I claimed it at the bottom of some post: I tracked chesskid to Enigma. Chesskid claims to have protected me.

And take your time, I think the answer is really obvious, so unless you don't think it is, don't hammer yet. I think you have a deadline of 2 weeks or so, so you are in no hurry. I have tried to pick out some key points against Chesskid for you.

I can't give you much more advice, I'm afraid.

[Charnel]

Also, your goddamn right I want to hurry this up. This game is obviously over as soon as you hammer Charnel, and I'd like to join another Mini.

Also, remember that avatar bet stuff earlier with TL? WANT ONE NOW, CHARNEL? HMMMM?

You know what I think about them, they are an out of game influence that shouldn't get in the game.

but sure, I'm going to try to find something for you. Only avatar of sig too? and for how long?

[Charnel]

There is no need for any bullshit rereads.

If Charnel were town, his amazing rolecop ability would either give him "doctor" or "patient" when he used it on ANYBODY.

EXCEPT WAIT. WHEN HE USED IT ON YOU, HE GOT CPR DOC
WHEN HE USED IT ON ME, HE GOT DOC.

HMMMMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm yeah He's scum

I would get "Old man", or "Doctor", or "Anesthesiologist Doctor". I got Doctor on you. Not mafia doctor, or town doctor. I would have been able to catch Exe, though Uprising would have been obvious.

[Charnel]

just 2 weeks? well, whatever you want

I think I have something for you that shouldn't upset you too much.

----

Edit:

I tracked because I already knew every role, and I don't trust the role information that I get from the mod. Tracking is clear, and since I wanted to investigate chess, I had already gotten my rolename result.



And can you please iso me? This last day has been quite low in fluff, and everything is directed at chess anyway.

[Charnel]

Look, I don't care. Scumhunt for yourself and make the right decision.

- He cleared me as a doc, obviously not planning on me being alive at LYLO. Now he's got to backtrack on a bunch of stuff to try to attack me.
- He tried to attack my doc claim as fake because someone I protected died, ignoring the fact that in a bastardmod game, Strongman kills are common, as could be insane doc/quack doc.
- Exe-Scum likes to look very town. Me and Exe were agreeing on most everything in the first pages of the game. YOu think we're both scum, you're out of your mind.
- Exe-Scum was on his wagon, and not on mine. See previous point.
- Char's predecesor was incredibly scummy, and was only saved by a nice PR claim.

1. I investigated you and chess. I got "doctor" with chess. Meaning chess must be a mafia doctor (in a hospital themed game, with a SK, not a surprising role)
2. SK-strongman might exist, though I have never seen it. The insane doctor clearly doesn't exist.
3/4. Yeah, he twisted my argumentation and simply used it for himself.
5. uhm, Moo lurked like hell. And?

[Charnel]

Charnel, are you mad?
We can't lynch the SK today, that's handing mafia a win unless our vig kills correctly. Really?

unvote

I had a good reason why I thought the setup was 9-2-1 in stead of 8-3-1 (in that case this loses, in 9-2-1 it wins), but I can't remember it now, as it is quite late. It had something to do with the amount of people that were confirmed, I thought. I'll get back to you on this in 8 hours, or so.

"I forgot the number of scum wasn't public and slipped"
QED.

My next post, 10 hours later (because I slept in that time)

the reasoning why it must be 9-2-1 was simple. 8-3-1 would more then likely have a BP SK, and would already be lost by the town. 9-2-1 is winnable, so we have to take that chance.

Quoting out of context.

However, even from your point, this can't be hard. Chess's play doesn't make sense as town.

VI's are not known for leading lynches, while he did

. He isn't a doc, as he claimed that his protect didn't work. There is no role in the game which explains it. Even with the SK gone, he tried to "protect me" to kill me.

There is a name for that gambit, claiming a role which is so unlikely that it has to be true, and it is employed by scum.

The more you think about it, the more you know that

Chess did indeed make a gutsy fakeclaim, like his entire play is that of gutsy scum.

On the fakeclaim: wasn't it suspicious to you that Chess was so long only

softclaiming his role, constantly trying to avoid having to claim and ultimately doing this reluctantly?

That is not the way town play's as a softclaim is a damn good indicator for scum that he is a PR (it even was a docsoftclaim), so scum would have got all the information it needed, while town didn't. It's now so clear that he only softclaimed to avoid getting lynched. When he was forced to claim in massclaim, he fakeclaimed in such a way that everybody thought "he can't have made that up". Well, he did.

Bolded the key parts.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TheLonging
Biggest wagon

why the hell aren't you thinking for yourselves?

Why did you tunnel, right from page one on TL? You can hardly find scum then already, but you never moved off him.

That's really convenient as scum. You have only to make on case, and the player is bound to make some mistakes here and there that you can misuse to get his mislynch.

You are the biggest wagon, it would be nice to get a claim or to confirm you town/scum, if the latter it would be a nice lynch.
Rolefishing woo. I softclaimed a PR. Pretty sure that counts as town, Mr.

No it doesn't. Explain this Chess. This post is so bad.

Day 1 Vote Count #6

[6] chesskid3

- TheLonging, Moospiker, Nobody Special, Wingless, CooLDoG, Zang

[2] CooLDoG

- Tasky, chesskid3

[1] Nobody Special

- Exe

[1] Uprising

- Enigma

[0] TheLonging

-

[0] Enigma

-

[0] Wingless

-

[0] Tasky

-

[0] Zang

-

[0] Exe

-

[0] Moospiker

-

[0] bv310

-

Not Voting (2): bv310, Uprising

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is 10/31/10 at 9 AM CST.

chesskid3 is at L-1.

Guess who isn't bussing: Exe. It makes sense that chesskid became stuck on L-1. Exe wasn't going to bus, chesskid wasn't going to selfvote, Tasky was waiting for reactions and needed a long day and Enigma wouldn't join a bandwagon. It is one of the few large wagons that Exe wasn't on.

Conclusion:

He isn't a VI. VI's aren't manipulating the town, and the TL lynch was manipulation.
He doesn't want to explain why he didn't go for uprising, while it had more support\
He doesn't want to explain why he softclaimed (while that can't help town)
Chess keeps defending his TL mislynch by saying that NS was town.
Exe was on a lot of wagons. Not on Chess's.

[Charnel]

I really fail to see how Chess's case is any good. I haven't cleared him, I have confirmed that he is the doc, though he loves to keep saying that I cleared him. As soon as the words "mafia doc" is in a post, Chess says that's dumb: while chess knows that mafia docs exist, he recently played in a themed game where that role was in: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15103 Chess damn well knows that is far from stupid in a hospital themed game.

Seen that Exe avoided Chess's L-1 wagon, but did join multiple others, it is Chess that is apparantly special to Exe, not me. Remember how long Chess was at L-1: it makes so much sense if Exe had a real good reason to stay off it. Otherwise it didn't. Exe joined most wagons, and showed later he didn't mind hammering either.

The fact that Chess claimed a protection that didn't work is weird. The same that he protected me here is odd. His claims plain make no sense. I really don't see how it makes me scum that I point that out.


Can you really not see how it fits? Chess scum explains his odd claim, his odd play, Exe's play towards him when at L-1. It explains Chess's tunneling on TL day one. His softclaim that was purely antitown, but regardless he didn't get killed for softclaiming doc (and he could have protected any other kill if he was the doc). CooL, what do I have to say to make you see!?

[Charnel]

I really fail to see how Chess's case is any good. I haven't cleared him, I have confirmed that he is the doc, though he loves to keep saying that I cleared him. As soon as the words "mafia doc" is in a post, Chess says that's dumb: while chess knows that mafia docs exist, he recently played in a themed game where that role was in: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=15103 Chess damn well knows that is far from stupid in a hospital themed game.

Seen that Exe avoided Chess's L-1 wagon, but did join multiple others, it is Chess that is apparantly special to Exe, not me. Remember how long Chess was at L-1: it makes so much sense if Exe had a real good reason to stay off it. Otherwise it didn't. Exe joined most wagons, and showed later he didn't mind hammering either.

The fact that Chess claimed a protection that didn't work is weird. The same that he protected me here is odd. His claims plain make no sense. I really don't see how it makes me scum that I point that out.


Can you really not see how it fits? Chess scum explains his odd claim, his odd play, Exe's play towards him when at L-1. It explains Chess's tunneling on TL day one. His softclaim that was purely antitown, but regardless he didn't get killed for softclaiming doc (and he could have protected any other kill if he was the doc). CooL, what do I have to say to make you see!?

Check that link, CooLDoG. Chess is the one needing bastard roles (roles that force the mod to lie to his players). The mafia doc is a known role, and while Chess calls it dumb, he know it exists (he was in that game).

But seriously, read my posts You got it mixed up.

[Charnel]

...........it's...............a.............bastard............mod.

You think as a mafia doc I decided to claim that I protected Exe and yet he died anyway so conclude that I killed him? UH WHAT?

BULLSHIT

[/color]

seriously. The whole thing doesn't make sense, and we need very extraordinary explanations, of which we have seen no evidence. Unless you are scum, of course, and then everything becomes very simple.

[Charnel]

I'm not doing this shit for 2 weeks. Just fucking hammer someone already. You fuck it up, everyone rages at you. You get it right, we win.
Either way, I'm ready to play a new game.

Just in for something. This isn't a strain on us anymore. It is that I don't see any good games in setups right now (avoid CJ's large please, you don't want to be in that), otherwise I would have inned somewhere else already. I replaced into another game a little time ago.

[Charnel]

You can't be in more than 4 mini's, even if it's LYLO with nothing to do but call everything you do scummy while you call everything I do scummy.

lol, you are in too many games I'm in... 2 mini's at the moment, and 1 large. Both mini's are in lylo (one I replaced in very recently because hoopla asked me to), and the large is pretty much dead. (hydra mafia). So all I'm waiting for is a game with decent players and a decent setup. They aren't around at the moment

[Charnel]

This was a pretty good game activity and playerwise, ignoring the Lrd slot and Zang.

Also I know you're calling me a VI because you need to discredit, but post game you better take it back.

If you did it conciously, kudos for that, but I don't believe it.

[Charnel]

Stop fooling yourself. CooLDoG will make the right decision

[Charnel]

vote/hammer: Charnel

, that's it its over... good bye. this was a fun game... I don't think I could vote for chesskid, of coarse if he flips scum its a draw.

Sorry if this was abrupt, but who cares right, 50/50, plus gut, you gotta take the shot.

WTH CooL!?

Really, my mind can't cope with this. What happened?

[Charnel]

CooLDoG, I know you are here. I still can't understand why the hell you would vote for me? Chess was obvious

[Charnel]

Obvious town, ya.

No?

[Charnel]

Yer I'm not quite sure that Doc's would be told they were RBed.

Mate you need to stop being naive.
Get a clue.

Seriously, Enigma was 100% right about you. You seemed absolutely clueless, you weren't doing any scumhunting.

[Charnel]

yes you can come. The hammer was real

[Charnel]

NOTE: If Charnel is not scum, the game will not go into night, but rather scum will win.

and there we finally know why this game was bastard. Changing the rules for the last day, tssk.

[Charnel]

Also, reading my ISO looking for something, I noticed I was a lot more abrasive than usual this game. Sorry about that.

Well, getting warnings about getting modkilled is pretty clear

anyway, you should play in less games, chess. You really have no clue what you are doing, usually. TL was a very good example (Uprising was so obviously a better lynch )

[Charnel]

let me post this here since I have to leave for a bit and I can't F5 enough:

"chesskid is the worst non-VI I have ever seen. He is arrogant, a douchebag, refuses to listen to people, has a big ego, double standards himself (I don't get an avatar bet but Charnel does), is a horrible scum catcher (only reason he caught Charnel is because he was so obvious, I even pointed this out AND NO ONE LISTENED), he formed a case on me that pretty much applied to some of the other players and even himself a few times (but of course he tunnels hard-fucking-core), and he only wants to see things his way. I will refuse to play with him again because his play is atrocious. Just 100% horrible.

In addition, everyone now has said Charnel was scum, and chesskid is only taking what everyone knew, and taking credit for it.

He is seriously horrible and egotistic.

yes I have to post it again, but that's because I fully expect chesskid to be reading this soon."

And BTW, dead QT was raging at you chesskid, for how bad you were playing. Scum were even hoping you'd fuck up SO bad to give them the win, they were just assuming. You're unfun (as bad as SocioPath), and I'll be damned if I play with you again.

I was that obvious? Well, apart from the "post a lot and hope you'll survive" thing at the start, the buddying to Enigma and CooL, the no interaction with Exe, the full fledged witchhunt on Uprising who was the obvious SK, the honestly

moronic

investigation of cooldog because I didn't want to confirm Enigma. Uhm, did I forget anything? Oh yes, I already told you how the setup was made: 1 of the three docs was scum, obviously. So it couldn't be chess.

Well, I already told the mod in the QT that I hated this game, (a QT you aren't going to see, because I don't want you to), and I can savely tell you now: The town has only chosen correctly

once

and you manage to win. Uprising was completely my choice, and town followed on a lynch that didn't help them that much. The scum killed one of their own (You were simply too awesome tasky), the SK killed the one scum player that was too obv town (you would never have caught Exe), and the scum player that remained was already in survival mode. It was completely luck that the Vig took the watcher out (like, seriously, why?), because otherwise you could have won this purely on role interactions. Now this was still the truth, as the real doc (yes, not you chess) was unknown long enough to make a difference and had to be shot in the end game. CooLDoG would have gone otherwise, because I didn't even know I could win, the mod didn't give me this rule.

So basically, the setup sucked, if a town can win while playing absolutely terribly.

Enigma was town's strongest player, who had only one fault in his play: he never pushed far enough, always stood by, watching. I would really love to play with you again.

[Charnel]

I still don't know how CooLDoG got me I really thought he was my best friend in this game.

[Charnel]

NOTE: If Charnel is not scum, the game will not go into night, but rather scum will win.

and there we finally know why this game was bastard. Changing the rules for the last day, tssk.

Scum can just pull their weapon and kill the survivor standing in shock at his error, right? <_<

you read my QT, I wasn't aware

[Charnel]

yeah, one thing I learned from this.

Moo isn't going to be in a game I mod. I hate players that give up.

[Charnel]

Well, good game I guess. I guess this proves that Mafia can lose on night actions alone

Fun stuff. I enjoyed appearing town throughout the game

It usually isn't a good thing, though (same the other way around. A town that can lose just on nightactions should be disappointed too)

ah, well. 4 day's of hanging in the ropes and avoiding vigkills is somewhat satisfying. We would have won with either you or Tasky alive.

[Charnel]

I knew there was a traitor, so we would have won a round earlier. Plus that Tasky was quite obvious vanilla, as he played. To him, he probably was. He was, from my point of view, when we killed him, the single best townie. Much more effective then Enigma and he did some good scumhunting.

[Charnel]

Yeah, Enigma, tasky would have changed into a goon. No way you'd catch him

If you had lynched Uprising like I told you way earlier... Exe would have made it