ATHF Mafia OVER(roles and whatnot revealed)

[Zdenek]

I am here, and I am reading through the game.

[Zdenek]

To answer the question from earlier, I have played in 8 games.
I will hopefully finish getting caught up later today, but here are my thoughts at the moment. I've read the thread, but I haven't read everything carefully, and in particular I still have to read through Seacore and MoI's ISOs. If you want more details for anything I say below, ask, and I'll provide it.

Let me start by commenting on what is probably the main issue, Podium: he asked about a breadcrumb and was attacked for it, fair enough. I still have to evaluate the argument against him, but my initial impression is that the arguments against him are not too strong, and I agree with VV that his reaction was not unreasonable.

Ghostwriter started the game off and his first post did nothing to move the game ahead. I feel as though he is providing unnecessary explanations for his actions in ISO's 2 and 4. I think that his initial reasons for his vote on Podium are not too good. Also, he never really comments on the further arguments against Podium, but he still says that he is tired of going around and around with him. My guess is that he really means that he is going to ignore Fate and Podium's discussion, and not change his vote unless something big happens.

VibeBox hopped on the podium wagon, and has refused to explain himself. I think it is useless to ask us to figure out his motivations. I can accept that voting without explaining why can be a reasonable scum hunting tactic, but he is not justifying his actions in this manner. He also made what I think is a bizarre comment about how we should be careful of VI traps.

I feel as though Nachomamma is feigning scum hunting, but he apparently has some sort of post restriction, so that might explain my impression. He also slipped onto the Podium wagon.

[Zdenek]

Seacore was coaching podium in ISO9, if either flip scum, it will be something to consider. I also think that he's defending Podium a bit (for instance in ISOs 6 and 31). Finally, I feel that Seacore's hesitation to vote podium is forced, and I think that his argument that Podium is scum for attacking the arguments against him is BS.

I don't have anything to say about MoI except that I think his posts are reasonable. I'm willing to trust MoI's read of nacho today.

I still have to go through the recent exchanges of GW and Podium in more detail, and I will comment as GW requested soon.

[Zdenek]

Let me start with GW's 240: the comment about VV's 176 was accurate. Personally, I think VV is scummy for the reason's mentioned here independently of Podium's flip.

Implosion's catch-up post 241: I think he is right about both the relationship between Seacore and Podium, and VV. On the other hand, I think Implosion's 252, is drivel. He lists the places where Podium did some scum hunting, but chastises him for not doing more (despite the fact that others have done less, as Podium points out later), he attacks Podium for attacking the arguments against him. He acts as though players can't have different perspectives on the game. He also seems to suggest that just making suspect lists is scum hunting.

Implosion in post 263 suggests that Podium is Jester. This is a bizarre thing to do at this point. Podium has been fighting his lynch constantly, so it's doubtful that he'd be a jester. I can't really see why Implosion would want to derail the wagon. I think Implosion is probably just stupid.

I think Podium has defended himself pretty well against GW's attacks. As far as Fate's attacks go, I can easily see town being pissed off and refusing to answer Fate's last question, just as well as I can see scum doing it. So for me, this part of the argument is null. As far as the show me the breadcrumb tell (the last remaining point of Fate's argument against Podium) there are scummier things to look into.

[Zdenek]

I've been fairly suspicious of VasudeVa because he seems to have been avoiding a lot of the major conflicts in the game, so I've been re-reading his posts, and I have a request of Ghostwriter.

GW, could you please explain this paragraph:

You claim to not believe that I thought it was an obvious RVS vote whilst calling it an obvious RVS vote. You say that I should have seen it as reasonable for Podium to see it as a serious vote, but, as I have pointed out already, it is nothing more that Nacho's vote defined. If Nacho's is seen as RVS, Fate's was RVS. The corelation between the two is undeniable. When you simplify what Fate said, you end up with what Nacho said, and, assuming you read things in order, or ever went back and read what Nacho said first, this is obvious to see. If it isn't, then someone isn't thinking on the level I need them to think on as town. And rather than assume someone unable to grasp that fact, it seems far more likely that he is scum.

[Zdenek]

Slipped? Baby, I didn't slip. I hopped on the wagon while singing camp songs through a megaphone. I did not slip.

You didn't provide any reason other than sheeping Fate (which by the way, could be good scum cover).

[Zdenek]

I've commented on the Fate and the mindless sheep vs. Podium and was a part of AVDWPVOLNU. I have also started Vas, Finder of scum Vs. GhostWriterManScumGuy and his sidekick Nachoscumma8. How am I avoiding major conflicts here?

It's the style of your comments that bugged me. For instance:

podium, do you think Fate is scum? What do you think of Vibebox?

You just ask questions, which would be fine, but they are part of an earlier pattern of noncommittal actions.

Well, Vibebox, now that you are actually explaining what you meant with your #65, it's not at all IIoA now isn't it? Your #65 alone is fillyed shitty unexplained statements on stuff happening in thread that I couldn't even understand what you meant by them. It may be partially my fault that I didn't understand it and saw it as shitposting, but it is also partially your fault that you didn't even bother to explain what you meant with some of those statements because you choose to be the that one guy with lame one liners that he thinks universally understandable.

Here you let VibeBox off the hook really easily.

Your ISO 9 is okay, but it is almost IIoA. It certainly contains some analysis, but a lot of just deals with general reactions to fate and playing with fate.

[Zdenek]

Implosion's 252, is drivel. He lists the places where Podium did some scum hunting, but chastises him for not doing more (despite the fact that others have done less, as Podium points out later)

The thing is, several people had been specifically asking podium to scumhunt. He's been posting constantly, but there's been very little in general.

I said your post was drivel, and it wasn't just because you commented about Podium's scum hunting. You can break my post up and try to deal with each point in some mediocre way, but it won't change a damn thing.

he attacks Podium for attacking the arguments against him. He acts as though players can't have different perspectives on the game. He also seems to suggest that just making suspect lists is scum hunting.

Making a list of suspects, saying someone is scum, taking a goddamn opinion with legitimate reasoning within the first 50 posts you make... all of these constitute scumhunting. Maybe a better phrase would be taking stances. podium has taken no stances that actually had good reasoning behind them.

But just a few posts ago, you said:

I've made a (sort of RVS) accusation of seacore, I've listed my top suspects as of now.

as evidence of your scum hunting. Why do you hold others to such a higher standard?

Implosion in post 263 suggests that Podium is Jester. This is a bizarre thing to do at this point. Podium has been fighting his lynch constantly, so it's doubtful that he'd be a jester. I can't really see why Implosion would want to derail the wagon. I think Implosion is probably just stupid.

He's been fighting his lynch, but on the other hand notice how even after several iterations of me asking my question, he didn't answer. The same applies to Fate's question that is supposedly the reason Fate is still voting him. If he were town, he'd answer. If he were scum, I still think he'd BS an answer. Which is why I have some suspicion. Not enough to act on at this point by unvoting.

You have suspicion that he is jester, and that is why you aren't unvoting or you can't read and you are just posting for fun?

I think Podium has defended himself pretty well against GW's attacks. As far as Fate's attacks go, I can easily see town being pissed off and refusing to answer Fate's last question, just as well as I can see scum doing it. So for me, this part of the argument is null.

What about

my

argument, to which he eventually just responded that I have to trust him?

That is not all he said.

[Zdenek]

Not requoting to avoid giant textblocks.

I hold him to a higher standard because he's made oh... 7-8 times as many posts as me? And yet he's only given opinions on a few people, and only after being prodded to.

And what the hell do you mean by me just "posting for fun?" It's a

mafia game.

how the hell am I posting for fun? I'm not unvoting because my suspicion that he's jester isn't strong enough. Please actually read what I say, and don't just interpret it how you feel like interpreting it.

As for that not being all he said... funfact: he still said it. And he hasn't given any real comments on my case on him since that. He's essentially given up against me, as far as I can tell.

The number of posts is mostly irrelevant.
You are overestimating the quality of your argument if you think he is trying to get himself hung by not answering your question.
Cherry picking quotes is scummy.

[Zdenek]

Not requoting to avoid giant textblocks.

I hold him to a higher standard because he's made oh... 7-8 times as many posts as me? And yet he's only given opinions on a few people, and only after being prodded to.

And what the hell do you mean by me just "posting for fun?" It's a

mafia game.

how the hell am I posting for fun? I'm not unvoting because my suspicion that he's jester isn't strong enough. Please actually read what I say, and don't just interpret it how you feel like interpreting it.

As for that not being all he said... funfact: he still said it. And he hasn't given any real comments on my case on him since that. He's essentially given up against me, as far as I can tell.

The number of posts is mostly irrelevant.
You are overestimating the quality of your argument if you think he is trying to get himself hung by not answering your question.
Cherry picking quotes is scummy.

First thing you said: so you're saying if person A makes 100 posts and 10 with good scumhunting, and person B makes 10 posts all of which contain good scumhunting, person A is better or the same? It isn't a game of quantity, it's a game of quality; I've done just as much as podium or more in much fewer posts. Hence, the number of posts is relevant. This would essentially be the difference between an active lurk (many posts, little content) versus a non-active lurk (few posts, but there is content within those posts). The first is scummy. The second is not.

I'm not "overestimating the quality of my argument." I was confused about why he seems to be purposefully avoiding questions (NOT JUST MINE) and the thought came to mind that it could be jester behavior.

And how the hell am I cherry picking quotes? Are you implying that by quoting something I'm automatically cherry picking? HOW DO YOU NOT THINK IT'S RELEVANT THAT HE FUCKING GAVE UP AGAINST ME? And speaking of which, do you have any opinion about that post, or are you just going to dismiss it as irrelevant because I'm the one that brought it up?

Preview edits:

Stop posting garbage. What Podium said. Also, if someone posts everyday, and has ten good posts, that's fine, and if someone posts 100 times in the same time span, and posts a pile of drivel with some good posts mixed in, that's not all that good. Neither of these cases border on the different types of lurking because they both involve people posting content. I'm not interested in continuing to discuss this point in the thread, because it has nothing to do with the game.

You are cherry picking quotes because you are focusing on the fact that Podium said that you'll just have to trust him. When he just said, a moment before:

It means that from my point of view, the majority of what was going on in the thread was attacks on me, that i was arguing against... so i had to look to other cases that were being made, to look for anything scummy... of which there weren't many.

which should deal with one of your questions. If you aren't satisfied with the answer, fine, but then talk about that instead. What you've chosen to do, is focus on the fact that he made the comment about trusting him.

You've been going on and on about Podium ignoring a question that you've asked him several times. If you are talking about your point of view question, I have to ask, why are you being intentionally obtuse? Do you seriously believe that we don't have different points of view. Or are you hoping that he'll just come out and say that he is looking at things from a scum point of view?

Here is a question for you: why haven't you been concerned with VibeBox communicating with you in thread?

[Zdenek]

I usually dislike 'misrep' accusation, but the second part here is 100% misrep. There was a beefy load of analysis in my ISO 9.
It includes:

To clarify my post: my reading of yours is that that first four paragraphs are IIoA plus an observation of Seacore's, and the general analysis of Fate. That was the almost and a lot of it. I guess I should have said almost half.

[Zdenek]

Vote: Seacore

Seacore is continuing to use arguments against Podium that have been dealt with already and is spaghetti flinging when he uses comments like "general flailing." See Podium's 354.

[Zdenek]

^weak

I've seen scum caught for those things before. Additionally, Seacore's earlier attitude towards Podium could be seen as buddying followed by forced hesitation to vote for him, and then the vote.

[Zdenek]

I am not necessarily accusing him of bussing. He could have just as well been buddying a townie and when he decided that instead of buddying him, he was going to vote for him, he backtracked carefully.

[Zdenek]

VibeBox's posting is terrible, but it is so bad that I wouldn't guess scum would do it. So for me the question is: is VibeBox scum gambitting? I could go either way on this question.

Magna: is one scum tell always enough to incriminate someone? Do you think that it is scummy of Fate to both think that Podium is town and that he has found one undeniable scum tell?

Since Podium asked, here is what I think of Podium's case Ghostwriter, referring to posts 254 and 259: Basically, I think Podium does a good job of arguing against GW's case on him, but doesn't give a good argument the GW is scum. I agree that GW's case on Podium was weak, but early in the game, pushing a weak case isn't necessarily scummy. Though, continuing to push it can be.

Implosion's catchup post 410: Easy questions for some people and a bunch of easily changed null reads; it could be an under pressure attempt to put some effort into avoid a lynch.

Implosion, why are you so interested in who GW votes for?

[Zdenek]

Too scum to be scum followed by fence-sitting noted.

Not too scum to be scum, I just think VibeBox's posts are bad. He's now explained that he was experimenting with a new style. For the time being, this explanation for his early posts is good enough for me.

However, VibeBox, why are you not voting someone on your scum list?

As far as why I am not voting Implosion: I think seacore is more likely to be scum. However, town has to co-operate to win, and if it comes down to a deadline, I'd be willing to vote implosion too.

Ghostwriter: would you mind explaining the stronger cases than yours that rose and fell while you were pushing for a podium lynching?

[Zdenek]

I read Zdenek's post as intent to hammer when the time came. Saying you won't let deadline pass without a lynch and having someone be at L-1 with a few days left until deadline is nothing more than playing the waiting game. The intent is there unless the pressure can be shaken. But at this point, the pressure is often not shaken without something drastic.

I asked you a question in that same post. I'd still like you to answer it.

Mod: when is the deadline? Will there be an extension considering that two players, Zinive and Butterfly, have essentially not contributed?

Anyway, I'm not requesting a claim yet.

[Zdenek]

Implosion, could you ask the mod if you can be certain of GW's alignment?

Votecount (as of this post)

implosion: 1 (VasudeVa) L-6
Seacore: 2 (implosion, Zdenek) L-5
VibeBox: 6 (Fate, GhostWriter, Magna, Nacho, podium, Seacore)

L-1

[Zdenek]

Two things make that not a contradiction Fate.

1) we had both MoI and Zdenek willing to hammer
2) GW knew we were on the wrong track and pushed for it.

Fate: i don't know if this makes sense to me..
Mainly GW has not contributed as much as the others... For seacore to back him up is at the least strange... i don't have any other solid leads to go on here so I really don't have a say-so over who's truly scummy or not at this stage... I can only find oddities really...

also skimmed some other ISO's...

A) Vibe. Claim. Now. I'm Seriously considering hammering...
B) VV Has not posted as much as some but when he's posted he's contributed in one way or another...

Thats all for tonight I gotta work tomorrow, luckily not for long I'll post around... say 10? 11?

I'm Central time in the U.S. That's GMT -6 for those w/o brains...

later
~ Dude with a Einstein avi

Why is it strange for seacore to backup GW?

How do you go from

i don't have any other solid leads to go on here so I really don't have a say-so over who's truly scummy or not at this stage

to

A) Vibe. Claim. Now. I'm Seriously considering hammering...

[Zdenek]

I will be V/LA until Wednesday Dec. 1

On that note

Unvote: Seacore

I'm not sure that I'd be happy with his lynching in my absence. I'm currently re-reading with the information about the masons in mind.

Preview edit:

Kcd's catchup post is a pile of information instead of analysis. Why don't you tell us what you're thinking? For instance, you've read to page 3. I wasn't in the game until page 10, I replaced in, and the person I replaced in for never posted, so why do you have any read on me at all?

I'm also very concerned by your repeated use of post counts as what seem to be major parts of your arguments that people are scum, and the fact that you don't seem to consider the contents of people's posts at all.

Kcd, I'd still like you to answer my questions.

[Zdenek]

RedCoyote, your "catch-up" post leaves a lot to be desired, and either comes from lazy town or scum who knows he's not getting lynched today.

Podium, why do you say that RC is "caught up"?

[Zdenek]

My V/LA continues because of a delayed flight due to bad weather.

[Zdenek]

To address the issue of how to use the role cop. Considering the theme of the game, I don't think it makes sense to lynch people based purely on their roles. However, I think one use of the role cop could be to tell if someone is using a fake claim (in case scum has them) or not, which could definitely be useful.

As far as other matters are concerned, I can get behind parts of the case against Magna (he's been a bit opportunistic, he had his vote on VB while pushing Podium's lynch, his attack against k-spot was weak), but I think there is one person who nearly every person who's reads I trust seems to think (or at least has thought as some point in the game) is probably scum, but no one has applied much pressure to at all.

Vote VV

Needless to say I'm looking forward to your wall of text.

[Zdenek]

Z: We only have 4 days until deadline... i really dont think you can get a VV wagon up from 0 by then. You expressed susp. of MOI... why not vote him?

Since I think Magna is a better choice than VB today, okay.

Unvote: VV
Vote MoI

[Zdenek]

THIS POST HAS BEEN ENTIRELY REPLACED WITH DICKS

[Zdenek]

I am V/LA until Monday

[Zdenek]

Okay, I am George Lowe, role impersonator.

I asked the mod what my role did, and he told me that he'd never heard of the role before, so I haven't tried it.

[Zdenek]

???

That's exactly how I felt.

[Zdenek]

YOU JUST SAID THE MOD TOLD YOU HE HAD NEVER HEARD OF THE ROLE HE CREATED BEFORE.

GO LIE IN A DITCH AND DIE SCUM

I'm not allowed to quote conversations with the mod, but I'm not lying about it. I know it sounds suspicious, but I decided to not lie.

[Zdenek]

So, I just received a PM from the mod. He didn't know what I was talking about because my role is not "role impersonator," but my character is George Lowe, Role Impersonator, who is a character from the show.

[Zdenek]

SO WHAT THE FUCK IS YOUR ROLE?

I have no abilities and I win with the town.

[Zdenek]

YOU DIE WITH TOWN.

BECAUSE IM LYNCHIN YOU.

BECAUSE YOU DIDNT CLARIFY YOUR ROLE.. YOU THOUGHT YOU HAD A NIGHT ACTION BUT DIDNT TRY TO USE IT?

ITS BS. PURE BS.

I thought I was role impersonator, so I asked the mod what that role did. He replied telling me that he has never heard of that role before. So I didn't do anything. I thought it had something to do with the mildly bastard set-up. It turns out that I couldn't do anything anyway because that was just part of my characters name.

[Zdenek]

"what does my role do?"

"Ive never heard of that role before"

"oh ok..."


"what does role impersantor do?"

"Ive never heard of that role before"

...

During the night I was on V/LA and I didn't have the time to argue with the mod. Considering the theme, his response didn't bother me.

[Zdenek]

Vote K-spot

I agree with seacore's assessment that he's playing like new scum.

[Zdenek]

Today's lynch is clear.

Vote: RedCoyote