Fringe Mafia (Game Over, role PMs posted)

[smargaret]

I'm here and will post a review of the game shortly. One thing that caught my eye though, is Hop saying quickhammers are scummy now?

[smargaret]

Okay, so my first question: If we have a vig, WHY ARE HOP AND SV STILL ALIVE? That is why we have a sk, not a vig, because VIs/annoying PRs are vigbait and any decent vig knows this.

Hop, yes or no: are quickhammers scummy? I'm very curious to hear what you believe on this topic.

Reading back here are my notes on everyone

Zang needs to be prodded, replaced, or just lynched.

TonyMontana needs to be more involved in the conversation of the game instead of just making useless posts, he has had only one serious game related post and that was his vote

sorasgoof - also needs to start participating, none of his posts have really been useful and just seems like words with no content

Shattered - even before he announced he was V/LA I thought he probabl was cause he hasn't posted anything of value

Nocman - has only one of his 3 posts are game related and that one posts seems awfully political, I now need to look if emp and bunny responded to his accusation that their votes on furc looked like scum votes. I think if someone is accusing them of scum they should at the very least comment on it.

LordChronos - he seems to lurk into the backround and comes out of nowhere once he finds somebody else to attack, I say that if furc is scum, I would give Lord my look as being his scum buddy. He is trying to direct the attention off of furc and direct it towards me on a very weak case.

GhostWriter - yet another inactive person that needs prodded or replaced

foilist13 - needs to be replaced or prodded, 1st post he claims his role (if he is telling the truth) which is very odd

Empking - has completely avoided any type of scum hunting

Doombunny - At first it looked like he was serious about scum hunting but ruins all credibility when he FOS's inactives. instead of FOS'ing them he shoudl request they get prodded. he does FOS me and I adimit I probably deserve to be FOS'd because I changed my mind, if changing my mind is scummy than yeah FOS me, but I personally don't think changing my mind is scummy.

furclow - now here is something interesting, remember what I said about Lord Chronos? Furc's first REAL vote was for.... Lord Chronos and the rest of his posts are defense posts and attempts to show he is pro-town

The problem with me is I have seen so many VIs get lynched on day one being town and it is just something people on this site like to do. Furclow does look like he is trying hard to seem he is pro town which makes him scummy but I have also read some of his games briefly and he is just a really poor player. After reading through I am pretty sure Andrew and Lord are scum buddies, but I think if furc flipps town, Lord is still a good option being scum.

You guys want to FOS me for flip flopping go ahead, but you if you have an open mind furclow is A. scum trying to act town or B. VI trying to save himself and he is town.

he is very confusing and because of that and because his flip will help me know more about Lord Chronos

Vote furclow

Oh this is just bad. Who is Andrew? WHY are you voting furcolow again? This just looks like a policy vote that you're trying to dress up with bows and whistles. Plus, all you have to say about the whole player list is that they're lurking? Surely you can come up with more than that.

Holy wall of text batman, I'll read up on this when not on my phone

not voting for lc cause I think Its more if furc is maf than lc is, not sure what lc is if furc flipps town

and this is just a straight up contradiction, since you're basically saying in the first quote "If furc is scum, LC is scum. If furc is town, LC is still scum," leading to the very appropriate question of why you're voting for the uncertain option over the certain, to which all of a sudden you're not sure of LC? That was an awfully fast change, Hop.

Sorry to interupt but it just dawned on me

furc, someone asked you a question about your role to go with your name, you plan on answering him?

But earlier, fur was scum for claiming too fast. Hop, why don't I like your play? Null leaning scum.

A quick word about setup speculation: It's not inherently bad or scummy. There are times when it can be quite useful to town, such as when trying to figure out who's fakeclaiming in a massclaim scenario, or when trying to get a slow game started up. While I think it's worth considering sk/vig, we shouldn't get too distracted that we forego scumhunting.

Ugh. Unfortunately, Hop is right about Empking. No scumhunting, no reasoning behind votes, just hopping on VI wagons. I hate agreeing with Hop. Empking, who do you think BESIDES HOP is scum?

SV has an annoying post restriction and must die. Do we want to deal with trying to read that in LyLo?

Tony needs to post more, but what he has seems decent. +town points.

I like Zang for now. The sudden change to hammer furc makes me uneasy, but his posts are logical and I agree with his reasoning. Null leaning town.

My read on Doombunny is totally null, and is the reason it's taking me so long to do this. On the one hand, I like his posts. On the other, he's giving the impression of going for the easy lynches in the lurkers/SV/Furc/Hop crew. But that could just be town wanting to get rid of someone day 1 ... argh. Null for now, but expect that to change when I see how he's scumhunting instead of just rereading the game.

All others: Lurkers. Post more.

VOTE: Empking

EBWOP: *hands Doombunny a present*

Do not like how quickly Hop gets so upset at Zang

Also, there's a difference between speculation based on actions and speculation based on flavor.

[smargaret]

My meta is not your meta. How I play as scum is not necessarily how you play as scum. So no, I would not do what you are doing if I were scum. Of course, I wouldn't do it as town or indie either. This is why WIFOM is bad.

[smargaret]

DB: Are you really such an awful player that you think back and forths between two players are a good thing as opposed to an activity killer?

Do you have anything specific that I haven't answered?

Hop: Again stop purposely misintepreting me. I never said people should follow me.

that comment was sarcasm


This is my comment












and this is your head


I was not saying you were telling people to follow you but was sarcastically telling people they should because in reality they should be lynching you

Hop, how is this comment not just as insulting? You can't be hypocritical about this.

I'm looking forward to hearing from BV310.

[smargaret]

EBWOP:

@mod, I will be V/LA Tuesday through Sunday of this week visiting family for Thanksgiving.

[smargaret]

-Hop is just impossible. He needs to die before LyLo.
-Empking isn't helping by getting dragged into this mess with Hop. Other than Hop, do you have any scumreads?
-SV's post restriction is also difficult. SV, can you communicate in any way with us (ie morse code, going through a list, etc)? Do you have a quicktopic with another player where you can post freely? What exactly is the nature of your post restriction?
-Why hasn't bv310 posted yet? And I mean a real post, not a "Oh yeah, meant to do that" post.

[smargaret]

Okay, so in catching up, I have decided the following:

HoMJ, Zang, and possibly Furc need rope. As it stands, I want HoMJ dead first. Every single post he's made so far today has been beyond useless. In some cases, he's just being a moron. In others, he is playing actively anti-town. He keeps trying to argue off his pointless posts by claiming that they're "just his playstyle". He's also being entirely too obsessive with activity (which is a classic scum tactic to seem pro-town)

Vote: HoMJ

If there's anything else you want me to comment on specifically, then ask. Otherwise, I'm going to take a look through again later on, once we've lynched HoMJ.

Jump on the easy wagon, scum. Did you not notice that Furc is dead (and town)? Do you have a reason for Zang? Not that I disagree with you about Hop, but there's a difference between not-pro-town and anti-town. Also, for the length of time you've had to write it, this was a disastrously underwhelming catchup post.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: bv310

[smargaret]

Hop, please consider for a moment the merits of quality vs. quantity. He's right in that if you're just posting to yourself it's only cluttering up the thread.

[smargaret]

wednesday? to quote charlie brown

Good grief

Um, yeah. Hop, this is Thanksgiving. I predict you will be sadly disappointed with activity levels this week.

@ Mod, my v/la is not set in stone because apparently people are incapable of making plans more than 24 hours in advance, but I will be v/la for some portion of the period Wednesday-Sunday.

bv310: What do you think of everyone else in the game? I agree SV needs gone, but is there any reason other than the post restriction in your mind?

[smargaret]

Thanksgiving itself is Thursday, but I'm traveling tomorrow and I bet a good portion of the US is too.

[smargaret]

I agree with Hop.

Empking, whether you're withholding information from scum or not, you're also withholding it from town. That said, I'd rather hear your thoughts on bv than on ghost, since he's gone inactive and requested replacement and we'll get more information/reactions from looking at him. Or you could just do us all a favor and look at all three.

Sadly, I also agree that SV could be faking the PR. There's no way the mod would make a pr that is incapable of giving any information AT ALL, and it would be all too easy for scum to coast to the finish under such a PR. But that is modWIFOM, so I would rather see SV investigated than lynched.

[smargaret]

Empking, how is that philosophy not tunneling? There is at least one other scum out there.

[smargaret]

since I don't remember whether I officially declared it or not,

v/la until Sunday

[smargaret]

I'm back, I'm catching up. I do want to hear some more from TM, who seems to be in as much danger of tunnelling as Empking, and we haven't heard anything from Primate yet, but this thread is honestly hard to get into. In other words, /halfhearted proddodge. Sorry.

[smargaret]

1. Empking and Hop, back away slowly. I know you both think the other one is scum, but we've gotten that point and what you're doing now is stifling discussion from everyone else. We literally have discussed nothing else today because it's getting lost in the morass of posts from the two of you.

2. Hop, you're not the activity police. Why are you trying to look pro-town?

3. Empking needs to post a case on at least one other player. There are three scum out there, you have four scumreads, and you've revealed who they are - saying why you think so for one of them isn't going to take too much time and will give us all something new to discuss. I'm sorry, but I just got out of a game where lack of discussion led to an easy mafia victory, and I'm kicking myself over it.

4. Zang, weren't we supposed to get a wall from you today?

5. Doombunny, you've posted a lot of what looks like defense against Empking's mention of suspicion. Why does it feel to me like you're overreacting?

I have the feeling this game will be much easier once replacements have been found/are caught up. At least, I certainly hope so.

[smargaret]

Zang has some good points about Hop, and I need to reread him (yuck), but I want to ask something first -

Hop, how is calling someone a VI an unacceptable insult but the phrase "fucking retarded and INSULTING" perfectly fine? Also, I find wall posts to be MUCH easier to read and keep track of in iso than multiple short posts of the sort you're prone to.

[smargaret]

Hop, do you still find Zang scummy? If not, what changed your mind? If so, what has he done today to reinforce your read?

So, in one page of Hop's iso, we have:
-vote Zang
-FOS TM
-FOS Ghost
-vote Empking

and no cases to go with any of them. Hop, you're doing the same thing you're accusing Empking of - why not provide town with cases against some of these people? Do you think the scumteam is contained in that set? Why haven't you gone after anyone but Empking today? In fact, I think I am the only person you haven't accused at some point today. Who are your top three scumpicks, and why? Do you think they're scum together?

Well atleast you have realized you are caught

More votes on emp please

Hop, you're not the town leader. Why are you trying to direct votes like this?

smargaret, I am not "trying" to look anything. I am playing the way I play. lack of activity is what makes these games boring and these days drag on forever when they don't have to. Emp is clearly scum yet nobody is around to do anything about it

You are trying to look town by policing activity. Lack of activity is generally anti-town, drawing as much attention to it as you are looks like you're going overboard trying to look townie, which is a scum tactic. I'm really not expressing myself well right now. It also makes me inclined to post less, since you have 246 posts in the thread right now and most of them don't say anything about the game. It makes it hard for me to read you because I get distracted or put it off, and that's bad for mafia. This is why we have a mod; please let him do his job.

12. I don't understand how a VI can be anti-town when V stands for village, if a person is anti-town than call hm an SI. VI implies that he is town, SI implies he is scum

Hop, have you never heard the term "village idiot" before? It's not just a mafia term. "Village" does not refer to alignment.

Now, I know you're smarter than this, so why are you trying to set up a semantics argument that doesn't contribute to the game? Also, if VIs are always town, and you are a VI (according to your own post, not insulting you here), are you saying that you are always, in every game you play, town? I kinda doubt that. Also, after reading your iso, you insult people all the time. Stop being hypocritical.

this is the best I can do to post responses to your crappy wall of text, if you do this again I am just going to ignore it because there is no easy way to dig through them to respond properly

If this is the case, why should we keep you around? It's pretty clear that this is Zang's playstyle, and if you are too lazy to respond to his points, how are you any better than Empking refusing to build cases? At least Empking has a reason for denying the town information, even if it's not one I agree with.

[smargaret]

Empking seems much better, now that he's actually given a case (that was the major thing leaving my vote on him so far). This may just be proximity to Hop, so I've still GMEOY.

I need to hear more from Primate, TM, bv, and SV's replacement to read them.

I'm not sure I like Zang coming in and landing on the biggest wagon; it's not the first time he's done this. Zang, who do you think is scum besides Hop?

I don't want to end the day yet - we have replacements I want to hear from first - but the more I read, the more I feel like Hop is the play today. He's probably scum, and his flip will give us the most information. I'm going to check the votecount and then move my vote.

[smargaret]

Ugh, I'm not comfortable putting you at L-1 when the last vote count was Saturday and I'm about to go to bed, and thus more liable to make a mistake counting later votes.

@ Mod, vote count please?

[smargaret]

Hop, do you still find Zang scummy? If not, what changed your mind? If so, what has he done today to reinforce your read?

So, in one page of Hop's iso, we have:
-vote Zang
-FOS TM
-FOS Ghost
-vote Empking

and no cases to go with any of them.

Smarget, why the blatant lie?

I posted these on that page, anyone can go back and verify so i don't appreciate you trying to mis-rep me

1. I voted zang for his crappy hammer
2. FOS'd TM for directing the vig
3. FOS'd GW for his comment about furc but no vote
4. Voted emp for his vote hopping

Also yesterday I made arguments against nocman and Lord C, today I have made valid arguments against emp

Emp has made 1 argument against me and part of his case doesn't even make sense, yet you are defending him. Why has his refusal to make a case make him look better than someone who has posted reasons for votes and FOS's.

That's the problem, Hop. You made all those accusations, one right after another, and you accused noc and Lord C and furc, today you've accused or voted emp and SV and I'm pretty sure there's an FOS on Doombunny. That's what I'm pointing out - you are accusing everybody!

There is a difference between accusing and putting a case out on someone. You have made accusations, not cases that can lead anyone else to any sort of a conclusion - it really appears like you're waiting for someone else to take the bait and build a case for you, so you can see where town is willing to wagon.

Emp did eventually post a case against DB; his other two scumspects disappeared if I'm recalling correctly which does make posting a case on them kind of hard. I'm not going to go look up the specific post right now, but it was something like 8 points against DB. Also, I never agreed with you about Emp - you agreed with me.

The statement "At least Empking has a reason ..." is not an excuse. You're both being naughty boys for not posting cases; just Empking is being slightly less anti-town because I think he genuinely believes you to be scum and that posting a case on someone else would hurt the town. This is still anti-town and tunneling, but you're denying town information out of laziness and not because you think it's the pro-town thing to do. Do you see what I'm getting at? Like, Empking = bad, Hop = worse. That's hardly a 180. Nice misrep, though.

As soon as we get a votecount verifying that it wouldn't be hammer, I'm moving my vote.

[smargaret]

Smarge: 1. DB had Hop as his to suspect but came up with a BS reason not to vote. (post 29)
2. He's now done a complete u-turn on Hop. Defending him at every opportunity.
3. Hop's and DB's coordinated strikes to annoy me.
4. DB always generally agreeing with Hop but when asked about specifics always disagreeing with him.
5. Hop's ignoring a point I made against him in order to leave it to DB to defend him about it.
6. DB defending him on that point.
7. Hop changing his mind on that point quickly as soon as DB was on in order to tell him to pull a u-turn.
8. Until recently, DB and Hop coordinated to keep their votes off the same player today.

Hop: I was referring to the initial case on Empking. The above is what I considered to be the case Emp made, which is weak and late, but is still a case.

[smargaret]

These aren't firm definitions, there is some variation based on playerstyle, but as a general rule, I consider a case to be more detailed than an accusation and to have the intention of pushing towards a lynch, if not today then tomorrow unless the response is satisfactory. An accusation is more likely to have a shorter justification, maybe a one-liner, that the goal is reaction-fishing rather than lynching.

It's sort of like the difference between a vote and an FOS/IGMEOY, I guess. I'm not making much sense right now.

[smargaret]

Okay, Hop, if you say you're at L-2 I'll put you at L-1. Your recent posting hasn't been any better, and the game is starting to stagnate.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Hop

[smargaret]

Would you guys believe only one vote has changed since the last time I made a vote count like 6 pages ago?

Hop, this is why what you're saying about empking isn't moving the game forward.

[smargaret]

Empking, it's *her* 180, not *his*.

Hop, it's only a 180 if I ever believed you to be obvtown. I didn't, and your behavior today has been far scummier today than Empking's was today or day 1 (which is what I had to go on when I made my first read)

I don't believe Hop's claim. First, when I look up commuter on the wiki, it redirects me to redirector/bus driver page in the wiki:

[quote= "wiki page"]
Redirector
From Mafia Games Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

The Redirector (also known as the Commuter, Magnet, or Bus Driver) comes in several flavors: One has the option of choosing two targets each Night; any actions directed to target A happen to target B instead. Another targets two players, and any actions take by target A happen to target B instead of the targets chosen by A. A third variant swaps targets between two players, so that anything targeting player A happens to player B and vice versa.

The Redirector can have any alignment, though is more commonly scum, since scum can use the ability more usefully.
[/quote]

1. This is not what Hop claimed, or really anything like it.
2. Note that little bit about it being more frequently a scum role?
3. Then there's the delay between going to L-1 and claiming.

Here's what I think happened. ScumHop gets to L-1, knows a claim is expected, and takes the night to build a fakeclaim. Nobody was going to get off your wagon - if they hadn't when you said you were at L-2 and you hadn't provided any additional information since then as to why they should, why would they? And why is your role so far off from what it "should" be, according to the wiki?

[smargaret]

You're right about Lord being dead I forgoty about that. But HOW THE HELL DID YOU KNOW NOC WAS DEAD?

Have you ever played epic mafia? Missing means dead but janitored

Another scumpoint for Hop; we're not playing Epic Mafia and this looks like scum trying to weasel out of a scumslip, especially since his role apparently prevents him from being kidnapped - ie, going missing, and he should know better. See also: Hop trying to "Find Noc" in his first post day 2; I'm not wading through his iso to find it. He knew Noc was missing, not dead, and that's a direct contradiction here.

[smargaret]

= OMGUS. Are people not allowed to change reads?

[smargaret]

The wiki being wrong doesn't change the fact that the claim itself sounds fake; it was the proverbial nail in the coffin.

[smargaret]

EBWOP: "it" refers to the discrepancy between the wiki and the claim. Also,

:sigh: I was hoping people may have wised up and unvoted overnight, guess not

I am William Bell, owner of Massive Dynamic. I am pro-town commuter.

I am able to

go to the alternate universe to prevent being killed or kidnapped

Bolded part makes it sound like it's a choice, says nothing about "every other night" or restrictions on use.

Plus emp is right,

every other night I commute

Bolded part makes it sound like it's a passive ability.

[smargaret]

Hop, I'm not voting you based on Emp's case, I'm voting you based on my own interpretation of your posts. If I were to switch back to Emp, I wouldn't do it based on your case either. Townie-ness is also based on more than scumhunting.

[smargaret]

I had built a read on Empking during night, you just posted before me. I got the sequence of events confused.

People are allowed to change their minds after further play - I mean, your read on me seems to have changed some, why shouldn't my read on you and Empking have changed based on play Day 2?

[smargaret]

DB - hey, I tried to find out what the role was. I've never seen it used, so I went to the wiki. It's not my fault the wiki was wrong!

[smargaret]

http://mafiagameswiki.com/mafiaWiki/Commuter

Or it was just a different wiki ...

[smargaret]

So using google makes me scum? *confused*

[smargaret]

Or you're scumbuddies, or he could be a cop with an innocent on a godfather/cop of unknown sanity, or some other bastardy role (keep in mind this is a bastard mod game) that I can't think of right now.

[smargaret]

Hop,

I screwed up the timeline.

I didn't know the wiki link is at the top of the page. I googled "commuter mafia wiki" and the first link that looked relevant was the one I clicked. Hence, I googled my way to a wiki, it just happened to be the wrong one. Also, you can check the history link - it was last edited last summer.

Adding to what I said earlier, TM, you could have been RB'd. I'm not sure what mod-response that would receive, though.

[smargaret]

For the sake of argument, let's accept the claim that you went to the other side last night and that's why TM's actions failed. That doesn't make you clear. There's a killing/kidnapping role out there not controlled by the mafia; giving mafia two kills (effectively, since the kidnapped guy died) in one night in a mini is unbalanced even for a bastard game. Your ability to go to the other side could be very useful for a scumteam, especially if your role makes you immune to investigation while you're on the other side. It really sounds like a mafia role, and the fact is, you are not cleared by TM's claim.

I've been RB'd before and told simply that my action had failed, RB'd and told that I was blocked, and RB'd and told nothing. So it depends on the mod, and you can't know which message this mod uses.

[smargaret]

But I don't know what your role PM says, Hop. If I did, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

[smargaret]

4. did yo miss the word JUST, it wasn't

JUST

his 180. It was his lying also. 180 for no reason + bold face lying

IS SCUM

there is no way to say lying is pro-town, especially something so obvious of a lie and anyone trying to spin his lies as being pro-town is scum.

notice she has not even commented on the lies or even tried to explain herself, you don't find that odd?

I said I screwed up the timeline, that I had gotten my Emp read while I was catching up during night and you'd gotten in and posted before me and things got confused. My personal life has been a mess for the last couple of weeks and I just remembered thinking that Empking was playing scummy day 1 and wouldn't be a bad choice for a first vote of the day. Then you two got in that great big huge argument, and Empking came out looking misguided town and you came out looking scum. So I switched to you. That is not a 180, and it is a mistake, not a lie.

Now, I've said before that the "lie" was me being confused. So did you make a mistake, or are you lying now?

[smargaret]

I had built a read on Empking during night, you just posted before me. I got the sequence of events confused.

People are allowed to change their minds after further play - I mean, your read on me seems to have changed some, why shouldn't my read on you and Empking have changed based on play Day 2?

Cause I caught you lying and you go 180 and can't pinpoint what has made me scummy all of sudden and what emp did to seem so pro town

See, Hop, you

clearly

knew I had already addressed the "lie", so what pro-town motivation would you have for saying I hadn't? /sarcasm

[smargaret]

What was that about "notice she has not even commented on the lies"? In bold underlined type?

Also, even if you think my response was bullshit, my response was the truth and it was a response.

[smargaret]

I had built a read on Empking during night, you just posted before me. I got the sequence of events confused.

People are allowed to change their minds after further play - I mean, your read on me seems to have changed some, why shouldn't my read on you and Empking have changed based on play Day 2?

Cause I caught you lying and you go 180 and can't pinpoint what has made me scummy all of sudden and what emp did to seem so pro town

See, Hop, you

clearly

knew I had already addressed the "lie", so what pro-town motivation would you have for saying I hadn't? /sarcasm

Worth repeating. You knew what I was talking about it, quoting another place where I restated my response just shows that you're trying to twist my words.

I understand why Empking got less active. Arguing with you is like banging my head against a wall.

[smargaret]

see, HE HASN'T CLEARED YOU. That's my argument. He hasn't even necessarily confirmed that you went to another universe, since he could have been roleblocked (unless I missed where the mod said that roleblocking returned a different result?). All he's said is that he targeted you, and the action failed.

Hop, I don't think you're in the third grade, I shouldn't need to spell things out for you. It is perfectly clear what I was responding to, you just don't want to admit that I caught you in a lie too, or that you

got confused

. It happens. Now, I'm done posting in this thread for the night lest I break the no personal attacks rule. And please, please, PLEASE try not to triple, quadruple, quintuple post so much, especially if you're not editing.

EBWOP (new concept for you!): YOU ARE NOT CLEARED.

[smargaret]

hang on, Hop, there are four people on your wagon right now. Are you really saying we're all scum if none of us unvote?

[smargaret]

-Not sheeping Empking, I had suspicions of Hop - quite a few - in my very first content post of the game. Empking hadn't even posted at that point. Are you lying again Hop, or just confused?

-So my suspicion of bv310 is not a valid case?

Hop, by your definiton, you are lying too. You are saying you are clear when you are not. You are saying I did not address your claim that I was lying when I did. And now you're saying I'm sheeping and not building valid cases when I am. So if I am scum for lying, so are you and we may as well lynch you. Either that, or you're just scum trying to talk his way out of the noose.

[smargaret]

@ Mod: I will be v/la for all of Sunday

[smargaret]

Hop didn't say anything to convince me he wasn't scum overnight, so my vote stays.

[smargaret]

Hop, is the request you're referring to a request for an unvote? I'm not going to do that, because I think you're scum and I would be just fine lynching you. You've claimed, we've discussed it, we've established that it's not believable and you're not clear, what more do you expect to happen? Or are you scum hoping to take the chance to take the steam out of your wagon and redirect attention to a mislynch?

[smargaret]

The claim, your reaction to being at L-1, your behavior day 1 as described in my catch-up post (pretty sure there are 3-4 things in there), and your continual harping on about the "lies" and the "180" after I've responded to them/proven that they aren't. And that's just what comes to mind without slogging through your back and forth with Empking - oh, let's add suspicion of everyone to the list to, since now you think I'm scum too.

And that's leaving out the AtE and OMGUS that are scumtells but which you don't believe in.

[smargaret]

DB, just being picky, but Hop said that, not me.

Hop: Please differentiate your statements from mine.

1. Everything I mentioned happened since you went to L-1 because I don't feel like wading through your posts with Empking right now and you've committed 3-4 scumtells since then that surprise surprise, happen to be fresher in my memory. Also, see my first content post of the game. There's plenty of pre-L-1 scumtells on you there.

2. Your claim is not a scumtell, it is scummy. As Zang said, it is a safe thing for scum to claim, and the only (possibly) verifiable part of it doesn't confirm your alignment.

3. Your reaction to being at L-1 is a scumtell because of the delay in claiming, the sudden insistence that "I am clear!" and all the AtE and OMGUS since then (you don't consider them scumtells, I do, deal with it).

4. Which post contains your case against emp? All I saw was a bunch of "You're scum!" "No, you're scum!" "No, you are!"

5. Suspicion of everyone is a scumtell because it is leaving your options open - you can see how everyone else reacts before committing.

6. So wait, I can't decide you're scum once you're at L-2? Now, that's not the case because I'd already said I was null-leaning-scum on you, but it's perfectly reasonable for someone's read to change over the course of the day.

7. No, I don't think you genuinely believe emp is scum because I think YOU are scum.

EBWOP: Hop, the mafiascum link didn't look relevant. I was skimming google results, the second link had the word "commuter" in it, the first one didn't.

[smargaret]

So that's the only thing you want to respond to, Hop?

[smargaret]

You're doing the same thing you did yesterday: "Okay, I wifom'd, but Furc's wifom is worse!" I don't buy it any more than I would have day 1. And you're still ignoring the fact that I had a null-scum read on you from the start of the day, so my vote was hardly out of nowhere.

[smargaret]

bv, where were you all of yesterday?

[smargaret]

If you're claiming what I think you are, I'll go along with you - but CDB hasn't obeyed any post restriction SV had, and I want to hear why before the day ends.

[smargaret]

DB: Exactly. He hasn't posted anything worthwhile, and the posts he has made are comprehensible and not, say, recipes for banana pudding. So since he hasn't been modkilled, SV was faking the post restriction - and what was the pro-town motivation for that?

BV: Who is the second scum? And are you saying that DB was bussing all of day 2?

[smargaret]

I'm curious because I remember you saying Empking was scum, and then DB is "mister third scum," so why do you think he's third and not second? I'm not saying there are two or three, I just find naming DB third scum when you have one other suspect suspicious.

[smargaret]

Things I don't like about bv's cop/JoAT claim:
1. It was unnecessary - given Hop's flip, Emp looked pretty scummy at the end of day 2. WHY would you claim a power role like that when you could just recycle arguments from yesterday and add Hop's flip?

2. Proposing a massclaim WITH A GUILTY INVESTIGATION? Why not push Emp's lynch and let the power roles stay hidden another night? I know it's lylo, but letting scum know where the power roles are unnecessarily is not a townie thing to do.

3. What DB said about the missing post, plus the absence day 2.

4. It's LyLo in a bastard mod game - are we not going to consider the possibility of an insane/paranoid cop, or millers?

CDB, do you have a post restriction or not? If not, do you have any idea why SV was pretending to have one, or why DB might think SV did have one based on a quicktopic? Right now that's standing out as suspicious to me as well. Who did you neighborize last night?

[smargaret]

Oh, and CDB, why didn't you reread overnight?

[smargaret]

I'll explain after the massclaim why my stance on bv changed.

Is CDB's alignment confirmed to you (like masons are told by mod that their partner is town), or is it just his word on it? I'm really struggling for a pro-town motivation for that pr.

[smargaret]

The reason I am suspicious of bv is that I am Peter Bishop, doc. I protected LC night 1 and Zang night 2. Because LC died anyway, I suspect that either I'm insane with a chance of killing my target or that there's a roleblocker - part of questioning if TM got the same result from a roleblock was to determine whether LC's death was because I was roleblocked or because I'm insane. Also, I can only protect against bullets - I can't do anything against kidnappers.

Flavor supports the idea that I'm insane over having been blocked - apparently while I'm very smart, I never made it to med school and who knows if I'm a capable doctor or not. Plus, there has been insufficient bastard-ness so far if I'm sane.

TM is the only one left to claim other than Zang, and I think we should leave whether or not Zang claims anything more to him, since he's confirmed town. TM should claim next.

[smargaret]

I waited for a counterclaim because I didn't want to claim. Doc isn't a role that works particularly well after claiming. However, note that I switched from following your result to attacking you after you claimed. DB commented on it; I thought it would be better to wait until my name came up in the mass claim.

[smargaret]

Oh, and I'm not voting you now just in case part of the bastard mod was giving two players the same rolename - L-3 isn't necessarily safe from a quickhammer.

[smargaret]

bv, I tried to see if I could get people behind lynching you without claiming, which is better than a 1-1 tradeoff.

Zang, I've seen one; I don't recall if the game was labeled as bastard or not though.

DB, what if bv deliberately claimed something he thought would be cc'd because when he did so, we were probably in lylo, and he was setting whoever had Peter Bishop (me) up for a mislynch?

[smargaret]

Scumteam is bv, CDB, and TM. bv for obvious reasons. CDB because I just cannot fathom why town would fake a post restriction that did not allow them to communicate - it's just too easy to say "Hey, pr here, can't take a position" and get out of committing to anything as scum. TM for voting the only person who is mod-confirmed as town (even if he did backpedal later).

To answer TM anyway - I didn't need to bring up the possibility of Emp-scum, that was already being discussed. I did need to bring up the possibilities that weren't being discussed at all.

[smargaret]

Stuff has changed, bv. I don't believe you any more.

[smargaret]

I assume you're referring to my willingness to lynch Emp - DB already asked this and I already answered. You claimed, I didn't believe your claim any more.

[smargaret]

It was a pokemon-themed game, and I know absolutely nothing about pokemon. I think bv was actually a player in that game, though.

[smargaret]

So assuming Zang's right, there's no way bv and I are both town.

VOTE: bv

[smargaret]

Problem: I don't know that I'll kill whoever I target.

[smargaret]

bv - Or, I targeted Zang but my ability, as stated in the role PM, only works against kills. If scum is responsible for the kidnapping, then scum could kidnap and I could protect the same person and the only thing that would show up would be the kidnap.

[smargaret]

DB - he can't, because he hasn't completely made up his fakeclaim yet - or he would have fullclaimed in the massclaim HE STARTED when he supposedly had a guilty investigation.

He still hasn't answered why you'd propose a massclaim as a cop with a guilty result.

[smargaret]

First, I don't believe that you did target LC N1 - as I said when I claimed, I suspect I may be insane with a chance of killing my target. I suspect this BECAUSE LC did not survive.

I targeted LC N1 because I had a town read on him.

DB asked you to claim the rest of your role, are you planning on doing that any time soon?

[smargaret]

I'm happy with where my vote is and don't see much that bv can do to change my mind. I'm going to be V/LA for the next three days.

I would like to hear more from TM, Primate, and CDB before ending the day, though.

[smargaret]

Sorry, I forgot to bold my v/la in the last post. I will be back on the 28th.

[smargaret]

still on v/la because of the stupid blizzard mucking up travel plans, but it doesn't seem to matter because nobody's posted anything new.

[smargaret]

The only reason we won was because Emp got an extra kill and I got to frame bv.

The massclaim didn't make sense from a town POV; it told us that there was nothing town could do to prevent both kidnaps and it wasn't necessary because town could have gone for a no-lynch.

I don't think Emp was the right lynch day 3 from the town POV. You knew that one of BV and I was scum - it's a 50-50 shot that you guess right. However, you have a 50-50 shot that BV is town and telling the truth about the guilty on Emp, and then you have to worry about sanity issues, so the odds that Emp is scum given what town knew at that point were actually less than the odds that I was.

[smargaret]

Oh yeah, Hop, I was flying today which is why I didn't post in the qt. Sorry.