Lucid Dreamers - Game Halted

[StrangerCoug]

VOTE: bv310 for posting first.

[StrangerCoug]

look, I understand this is going to be seen as scummy, but as an experienced LD player (marathon games, look them up, I'm charnel), I really would like a no-lynch. The first lynch is most likely one that's on a townie. But there are no VT's here. Every townie might be a vig, a cop, or something even better. This is one of the few games where town is actually stronger at night. I've been LD scum, and all you worry about is people random vigging or copping you. And I suspect a few people have made an investigative action. (or can make someone else a Paranoid Post restriction owner, which is a funny watcher). So our later lynches should be a lot better.

That, and the idea is to have a lot of fun with night actions in LD. Day's are for endgame. First we should get some actions to get this game going. (and please don't shoot everyone. Thats just boring).

Prepost edit: VOTE: no lynch

Hmm... Food for thought, but malthusis has a good counterpoint.

[StrangerCoug]

look, I understand this is going to be seen as scummy, but as an experienced LD player (marathon games, look them up, I'm charnel), I really would like a no-lynch. The first lynch is most likely one that's on a townie. But there are no VT's here. Every townie might be a vig, a cop, or something even better. This is one of the few games where town is actually stronger at night. I've been LD scum, and all you worry about is people random vigging or copping you. And I suspect a few people have made an investigative action. (or can make someone else a Paranoid Post restriction owner, which is a funny watcher). So our later lynches should be a lot better.

That, and the idea is to have a lot of fun with night actions in LD. Day's are for endgame. First we should get some actions to get this game going. (and please don't shoot everyone. Thats just boring).

Prepost edit: VOTE: no lynch

Hmm... Food for thought, but malthusis has a good counterpoint.

And what's your opinion on the matter?

Habit compels me to play the day out. mykonian isn't scummy for suggesting the idea, though.

[StrangerCoug]

Haylen + Fenhl.

While no-lynch would be good, I can see how experienced LD players can easily take advantage of the possible lack of creativity of the newer players.

I guess what I want to say is that, it is easy to get mixups in the LD setup, considering that everyone is a PR.

P-EDIT: IF I AM NOT REMEMBERING WRONG, ONE IS NOT ALLOWED TO SUBMIT A KILL AS AN ACTION. IN ESSENCE, THE ONLY KILL AVAILIABLE IN THIS GAME IS THE SCUM FACTION KILL.

VOTE: Katsuki

Quicklynch please, Katsuki claimed scum.

Now that you bring it up, I

DO

think Katsuki needs to explain how he came to this. Responding with OMGUS doesn't look good, either.

UNVOTE: bv310
VOTE: Katsuki

[StrangerCoug]

Which part needs explaining?

How exactly do you know that only scum can kill?

SC's hop? Since he said "I'd like to see an explanation as well" he ALSO probably missed the part where you explained.


His selective commenting is worth looking at though.

If Katsuki asked what part needs explaining, how would he know whether or not he explained it?

Fate thought some part of Katsuki's post (I'm thinking the part about only Scum having a kill) was a scum slip.

Katsuki explained that it was a misread of the rules.

Fate promptly unvotes.

If ANY of that is wrong, please correct me.

I'll afford Katsuki a bit of leniency if it is indeed a misread, but I don't see where that excuse is given. (He's not off the hook thanks to the first sentence of 104.)

[StrangerCoug]

Which part needs explaining?

How exactly do you know that only scum can kill?

Answer me.

[StrangerCoug]

Well, he could've pointed me in that direction <_< That's dropped, but the pushing for a policy lynch still makes me suspect Katsuki.

As for not noticing the unvote, I

DID

see you switch your vote, but I thought somebody had merely overtaken Katsuki on your scumdar and he did not drop in scumminess to you. I mentally lapse all the time.

[StrangerCoug]

Ah, don't worry too much about that, LLD I can take care of myself.

[StrangerCoug]

Fate

Post One: In his first post, Fate makes a big point in mentioning he wanted Kit to look at his craft. Why would it need looking at though, the only reason it could need looking at is if it breaks any of 'the rules' indicating that Fate's craft could either be very protown or very proscum. Why would Fate mention this though? Because by mentioning it early, it makes it look like he isn't hiding anything. If he let slip later, he'd be in deep shit.

Post Two: Orders a quicklynch on Kat because she claimed scum. I can;'t see that anywhere in the post he quoted and I consider quicklynching to be very anti town.

I think he's idea about myko's no lynch thing is anti-town aswell. I don't care if there's no intent, we aint no lynching on day one. Especially since I infer from the mods OP that there's only two scum we should be looking for.

Post Three just looks like fluff to me and random conclusion drawing. I believe that's called a 'non-sequitor'.

His posts are giving me a headache cause they make no sense.

Voting people without reason is scummy cause it gives you time to think up a reason, like he did with us and Kat.

I also find it scummy that the first thing he mentions about why we should lynch us is that im difficult for people to lynch. I can see no town intent there.

Post 22 also makes no since, since i provided content AFTER I wrote the first bit of my post -_-

And I didn't FoS for him voting me. I FoS'd him cause he has fail arguments.

Unvote, Vote Fate

Epic fail. Fate's playing to his meta if I remember him correctly, for one thing. For another thing, asking the mod about the Night 0 craft is a null tell. For yet another, where the

HELL

did Fate commit OMGUS?

Request to hydra: Please tag your posts.

Why should they have to? If they want anonymity, let them have it.

Conclusion, SC is scum, together with UK. Now, if two players redirected their actions to Gandalf, and someone would make Gandalf a PGO, this would all be a lot easier.

The hell? Explain in detail please.

Major HoS: Lilu Hei and mykonian.

I

WILL

vote one of them in my next post.

[StrangerCoug]

SC - Fate accused me of OMGUS, I didn't accuse him.

OK, this makes better sense looking at you two in ISO.

And im not fencesitting on the asking about the craft thing fate did. If you actually read the rest of my sentence, I clearly say I find it scummy.

I'm not saying you're fence-sitting. I'm saying that I don't find what you call scummy a reliable tell.

Also, EVERY game is different. This game had a NIGHT zero start, and a playerlist that I am MOSTLY unfamiliar with (myko matlhusis and SC [no SC I will not count PYPII as a game with you because your play was so terrible it must not have been you] I have only played with with them as my mod), and a very fluffy RVS stage unlike the ONLY OTHER game you have me as with meta.

I deserve the blame that game; don't worry too much about that.

Conclusion, SC is scum, together with UK. Now, if two players redirected their actions to Gandalf, and someone would make Gandalf a PGO, this would all be a lot easier.

The hell? Explain in detail please.

Major HoS: Lilu Hei and mykonian.

I

WILL

vote one of them in my next post.

I asked you to address this; you did not do so.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mykonian

[StrangerCoug]

Poor thing. Preemptive omgus?

It is not OMGUS if it's a legitimate counterattack. Sorry.

And do you have anything else to add beyond buddying Fate and Spewing theory? Even your vote on me sucks for a page 9 vote. (OMG, he won't explain to me!!!).

I asked you to explain your choice as to why you thought UncertainKitten and I were scum. You really only gave it for UncertainKitten.

I'd like you to explain why you waited with your vote, as everything you post here was already in the thread. Did you need an excuse for such a shitty vote? Because "he won't explain while I asked" is quite the excuse.

I waited because I wanted an answer to my question first. I did not get that, and I threatened to vote one of you. Don't come crying to me because I was true to my word.

Maybe I don't want to explain to you. So what? It's not like you can say that I'm a VI and that I don't know that this is supposedly antitown. Somehow you know I do it for a reason... and all you can think of is a vote.

Withholding information is in most cases anti-town. We don't need what craft you picked right now, but other than that, if you're asked for something game-relevant, you either give it or give us a damn good reason why you're not. Got it?

Now, I ask you, what do you think of the Fate focus of this entire game? And do you agree with the people that put on the breaks on his scumhunting?

I still think Fate's being Fate and I disagree that he's scum. As for "putting the brakes on his scumhunting", that needs to be clarified before I can give an answer.

[StrangerCoug]

I'm not going to give scum ultimatums. Scum does give town ultimatums. Basically you claimed scum. You were looking for an excuse to place your vote, and "you were true to your word" you sound legitimate. Not that you are.

I will give an ultimatum to whomever the hell it sounds reasonable regardless of my alignment. I do not believe in empty threats.

Maybe I don't want to explain to you. So what? It's not like you can say that I'm a VI and that I don't know that this is supposedly antitown. Somehow you know I do it for a reason... and all you can think of is a vote.

Withholding information is in most cases anti-town. We don't need what craft you picked right now, but other than that, if you're asked for something game-relevant, you either give it or give us a damn good reason why you're not. Got it?

Or get me lynched. Currently you are voteparking. Where is the big case that tells people they should lynch me? There isn't one. There is only an excuse for this vote, which has no intention to convince anyone, but only serves to give the vote enough legitimacy that you shouldn't get attacked for it.[/quote]
You voiced suspicion of me in your second post of the game and your entire case on me seems to postdate when I voted you. What did I do by your second post that got me on your scumdar, and what pro-town motive do you have to keep me in the dark about it?

[StrangerCoug]

Hmm... Food for thought, but malthusis has a good counterpoint.

Lie low until lylo, anyone? This gives me passivescum vibes.

I only entertain the no lynching idea for a brief moment, Parama. I don't like being passive, either; I see myself as an aggressive player on a good day.

Now that you bring it up, I

DO

think Katsuki needs to explain how he came to this. Responding with OMGUS doesn't look good, either.

Oh, because you couldn't have brought it up yourself I spy a Katsuki scumbuddy!
Are you playing on a delay? 111 shows no sign of knowing what's currently going on in-thread.[/quote]
I don't have an eagle eye. I may only give something a passing notice until somebody brings it to the forefront of attention. Does that make me scum? Not necessarily. Look at any game I replace in, especially a more recent one—I generally warn that I may have missed something important and ask people to ask me for my opinion if that is the case.

[StrangerCoug]

HEY SC, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF LILUHEI?

Lilu Hel is still a little worrisome to me. I still find his case on you flawed, and he hasn't completely gone away.

What did I do by your second post that got me on your scumdar, and what pro-town motive do you have to keep me in the dark about it?

mykonian,

PLEASE ANSWER THIS.

My vote is going nowhere until you do, and if I wanted to be ignored I would not have signed up for this game.

[StrangerCoug]

What did I do by your second post that got me on your scumdar, and what pro-town motive do you have to keep me in the dark about it?

mykonian,

PLEASE ANSWER THIS.

My vote is going nowhere until you do, and if I wanted to be ignored I would not have signed up for this game.

You can still replace out. You are ignoring the rest of the game because one single person expressed suspicion of you.

Replacing out because I'm not getting what I want is a cheap way to handle the situation.

Also, if you think I am ignoring the rest of the game, then ask me about the rest of the game. I'll happily provide my thoughts and opinions.

And this fits perfectly with your passive defensive playstyle. During the start of the game, you showed no intention to find scum. The second and third posts gave the game these lines:

Hmm... Food for thought, but malthusis has a good counterpoint.

Habit compels me to play the day out. mykonian isn't scummy for suggesting the idea, though.

You are scared to take a stance, you observe rather then search, and when the opportunity finally arises, you vote horribly. You are just sitting in this game SC, and experienced as you are, you know you have to hunt scum.

The problem is not that I am scared. I am allowed time to think, and neither of you are scummy for suggesting we should lynch or not lynch.

But what do you do? You go for a fullblown "He gave no reasons" case, and threaten with your vote. Townies do not threaten. They lynch or they don't.

I'm sorry? "Townies do not threaten"? Just because you disagree with me about legitimate ways to pressure people does not make me scummy. I've threatened as both alignments. (If I remember Insane Asylum 2 correctly, that's a game where I've threatened people as town.)

[StrangerCoug]

But what do you do? You go for a fullblown "He gave no reasons" case, and threaten with your vote. Townies do not threaten. They lynch or they don't.

I'm sorry? "Townies do not threaten"? Just because you disagree with me about legitimate ways to pressure people does not make me scummy. I've threatened as both alignments. (If I remember Insane Asylum 2 correctly, that's a game where I've threatened people as town.)

"it's my meta"

"I've done it as both alignments" ≠ "It's my meta." The latter implies I do it often (in fact, it's rare that I do it—what is this, my fourth or fifth time in my entire playing history?), while the former merely denies it being a tell for me either way.

I don't care SC. It's antitown, serves no purpose other then survival and satisfying your testosterone influenced brain. And this time you are scum btw. Townies don't have to say "I do it as town too". That can only happen from a perspective where you are already scum. You make me sad.

I hold it's perfectly acceptable pressuring, you hold it's a scummy survival maneuver. We're clearly going nowhere with this, so I'm going to move on.

Lady Lambdadelta has a good point that you should address. Why back down from a firm no-lynching stance to vote me for flimsy reasoning?

[StrangerCoug]

However, here we have the coincidence that SC was so interested in why people would suspect "him". That you think it's odd that I didn't give reasons is normal. But you didn't vote me for it, you say it's odd, and you scumhunt. SC stated multiple times that he made a "legitimate" vote. He voted because I wouldn't tell him.

He never voted because he thought I'm scum

. Which is defensive, reactive play (=scummy as hell). SC's last posts have all been focussed on me, which is only proving my point. Townies don't threaten, as scum will always give in, which means that their vote isn't used to lynch scum.

If I'm suspicious, I have the right to know why. If nobody stated cases on people, Mafia would turn into a game of pure luck, which takes away from the fun and I daresay the spirit.

Also, voting you implies I think you're scum. If I back up my reasoning, I don't have to say "I think you're scum" outright—the case would lead people to that conclusion.

If I were scum, I would buddy the hell out of him and he wouldn't have a reason to vote/lynch me.

Way to bankrupt the legitimacy of your defense. You know better than to defend with WIFOM.

SC voteparked by finding a legitimate reason to vote, but one which never could lead to a lynch.

People are looking hard at you, so I'm getting at least part of what I want

It's not just those two first posts (though that was what made me suspect him), it continous. SC has, till now, not done any decent scumhunting. He has made sure he asked

every single question asked

, he has focussed on me right after he proclaimed suspicion of him, but hasn't paid attention to the rest of the game. His vote was one which he used to gain an answer for his defense, not to find and lynch scum (as can be seen earlier. He thought my only other action, arguing in favor of a NL, was townie). SC isn't town here.

"I am focusing all my time and energy on you" ≠ "I am not doing any decent scumhunting." I am focusing my time and energy on you

BECAUSE I FIND YOU THE SCUMMIEST.

Lilu Hel is scummy to me as well, and if you flip scum Fate's chainsaw defense of you will not look good. (By that logic, I could get Lady Lambdadelta into trouble if I flip scum, but she can relax because I'm not going to. I don't think she can really be faulted by what she's thinking either way as she has a developed case, while Fate is just piggybacking on you.)

[StrangerCoug]

No. There's a pro-town way to do a pressure vote too.

[StrangerCoug]

SC! Opinions on people not named Mykonian!

I just gave a couple. Lilu Hel is suspect for the weak Fate case, as may be Fate himself once mykonian flips. Everyone else either I have no read on or is fine.

Also SC, your ISO sucks. You're very good at sitting in the background and doing absolutely nothing of worth. If you would, could you link a couple of your recent games, one as town, one as scum? I'm not sure if it will help me a whole lot but I get the impression that you're passive in different ways as scum and town, and this does not look like townie passiveness.

My last respectable scum game was Mini 945. I've gotten a scum role in a game completed since, but since the town was intent on lynching the slot anyway...

A recent town game would be Mini 1070.

[StrangerCoug]

You're not very defensive in the town game. You are here. Why?

mykonian's case, which a lot of people seem to be buying, basically consist of three points, two of them very weak: not taking much of a stance on things (as much attention I've given him, that's the least far-fetched), threatening to vote (a valid scumtell my butt), and parking my vote (if he's going to refuse to answer my question, then I don't see a problem with what I'm doing). If I'm being pushed for ridiculous reasons, I am going to act like it.

You know what else I notice in your town game that's missing here? Constant reads. Constant attacks. Constant questions. Right out of the gate.

I'm having a little bit of a hard time seeing this. Slow to start, yes. On the wrong track with Katsuki, yes. Those I concede. But since I've latched onto mykonian, only my opinion of Fate changed, and even that's dependent on mykonian's flip. Also, I've been very insistent on getting mykonian to get a proper case on me so I could defend myself.

[StrangerCoug]

xD

[StrangerCoug]

How does gunning after mykonian ≠ coasting? Answer that for me please.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: For "≠", read "=".

[StrangerCoug]

Lynch me if I know, especially since I'm aware most people don't know how to type that on a keyboard.

[StrangerCoug]

Gunning after myko? Give me a break! You didn't do jack shit with him til he got on your case.

Read the thread more closely. I made him crack, not the other way around.

Then you got into a pointless argument with him and haven't done jack shit since!

Do I think some things I argued with him were a waste of time to talk about? Yes, especially the argument about whether threatening to vote is a scumtell. But that's one of the big reasons why I think he's scum—he thinks threatening to vote is a tell. I have gained a lot of insight into him. It's not like I've gone nowhere.

You got thrust into the spotlight and *YOU DON'T LIKE IT*.

Two can play that game. I don't think mykonian's acting like he likes being in the spotlight either. Being in the spotlight myself is not the demotivating thing, though. If anything, it's that mykonian clearly thinks only for himself.

[StrangerCoug]

Before I forget, I want Parama to enlighten me. He says the case other people have on me is crap and that his is better. Not policy lynching me, I hope?

Alright, let's play this game. How is mykonian thinking only of himself? Provide examples.

This is the biggie:

I'm not going to give scum ultimatums. Scum does give town ultimatums. Basically you claimed scum. You were looking for an excuse to place your vote, and "you were true to your word" you sound legitimate. Not that you are.

Later down the road:

I'm sorry? "Townies do not threaten"? Just because you disagree with me about legitimate ways to pressure people does not make me scummy. I've threatened as both alignments. (If I remember Insane Asylum 2 correctly, that's a game where I've threatened people as town.)

Remember that game, even though I managed to botch it to the point I never got to shoot?

There's also this gem that I like:

If I were scum, I would buddy the hell out of him and he wouldn't have a reason to vote/lynch me.

Pray tell, how does this work in practice?

[StrangerCoug]

Yes, I recall you threatening. You also had power and confirmation to back it up. You don't here.

So? You still know that I've threatened stuff as town.

[StrangerCoug]

Yes, I recall you threatening. You also had power and confirmation to back it up. You don't here.

So? You still know that I've threatened stuff as town.

And? It's not even relevant to my case. Why are you trying to confuse the issue?

All I'm trying to convince everybody is that threatening people is a legitimate tactic. You're focusing on a specific scenario. If you think my scenario is invalid, then explain to me why.

[StrangerCoug]

Again you reverse the order of events. mykonian didn't really snap at me until I pressured him.

[StrangerCoug]

This is your FIRST instance of calling SC scum

What, short of a drastic blunder, makes you think I am going to call myself scum?

How does him making an unsupported statement like that benefit him as scum, where is the scum intent?

Town makes a coherent case, which may be the short and simple cases I usually make or the more elaborate ones Mastin does if I remember him correctly. Scum is more likely to try to get away with crap cases, assuming they bother with cases at all. Yes, situations may come up where their best bet is to bus, but they need a good reason to, so they prefer picking a VI and going from there. Not supporting your scum read also removes any possibility of defense, and going by raw numbers you're more likely to be wrong than right. That's why we make cases—so we can judge, by behavior, who is likely to be scum.

[StrangerCoug]

OK, I don't think mykonian flipping scum incriminates you per se anymore.

[StrangerCoug]

I never questioned the pairing itself. I'm questioning the lack of reasoning for calling us scum until pressured for it. In addition, for you to be scum required mykonian to be in my eyes—me being wrong would have cleared you.

Where did I say that being passive is my meta?

[StrangerCoug]

I never questioned the pairing itself. I'm questioning the lack of reasoning for calling us scum until pressured for it. In addition, for you to be scum required mykonian to be in my eyes—

me being wrong would have cleared you.

Clarify this last part more, are you saying you don't think myko is scum anymore?

No. I'm saying that if mykonian were to be lynched and flip town contrary to what I think, you would not be suspect.

[StrangerCoug]

The word "anymore" indicates that I changed my opinion about you.

[StrangerCoug]

You don't see any evidence that I thought you're scummy independent of mykonian in my ISO because that is not what I am saying. Previously, I thought if mykonian is scum, then so are you (if it helps clear things up, I basically thought you two were probably the same alignment); I now think you stand a good chance of being town independent of mykonian.

[StrangerCoug]

I picked cop.

[StrangerCoug]

My understanding of the rules is that you cannot make a craft and use another night ability on the same night.

[StrangerCoug]

Why do you want to be investigated?

[StrangerCoug]

Sigh... I'll bite. Fate's misrep of me doesn't sit completely well with me anyway.

UNVOTE: mykonian
VOTE: Fate

[StrangerCoug]

I thought it was clear he was misguided.

[StrangerCoug]

I picked cop.

LOL PICK YOUR POWER FUCKIN 4. YOU PICKED COP OR GADALF>>>>

ITS FUNNY CUZ GANDAL:F WAS CAUGHT THAT WAY IN THAT GAME.

I wasn't in PYP4; I'm not familiar with how gandalf5166 claiming cop got him in trouble.

THEN PARAMA OFFERS YOU HIS "heres your chance to live" AND FUCKIN

1. YOU DONT QUESTION HIS DESIRE TO BE INVESTIGASTED TONIGHT WHICH HAS EIGHTBILLION SCUMMOTIVES I CAN THINK OF

Yes I do. He just refuses to answer me. Learn how to read if you want me to regret my vote switch.

[StrangerCoug]

Don't feel bad—I messed up SWN III too.

I feel that I deserve a second chance here, so if you restart, I'm /in.

[StrangerCoug]

Just as a note: Is it customary here to count games with mod errors as wins?

I count mod halts as a win for everybody except the mod.

That's how I treated SWN III.