Execution Mafia GAMEOVER!

[Umbrage]

Hai

I don't like agreeing to no-lynch. We're just guessing as to the number of scum. If it turns out there are five, we just wasted a lynch. It's a gamble, and I don't like it upon first impression. Also, FF's certainty as to the number of scum troubles me.

Maybe it is the best plan, maybe I'm just tired right now, but this is likely the very first thing the mod or whoever thought of when designing the setup. I doubt it'll work.

[Umbrage]

I agree with having a different executioner for day and night. Otherwise we're putting all our eggs in one basket.

I don't want to bank on any investigative roles. Great if we have them, but don't count on it.

FF strikes me as town. Exe is probably town. Ant could go either way.

[Umbrage]

Why would you go phishing for those roles?

Wait, I don't see any fishing in that post. Speculation, yes. Fishing, no. You're just riding on Vezok's coattails, trying to sneak that bit in. IGMEOY.

[Umbrage]

My kill list:

1) Ant (already said why)
2) SV (I get scum vibes for some reason)

Tragedy needs to make more content. My read on TS is confused town. I don't see anything scummy there.

[Umbrage]

LOL at SV's OMGUS.

I'm getting more certain of SV being scum. He's pushing the TS wagon too hard. I still read TS as newbie confused town, I see no rolefishing going on, and I think SV is really reaching.

[Umbrage]

If you're going to go after people for activity, go after Tragedy. She's done nothing.

Exe started off well, but that latest post by him is just pointless posturing. And by the way, we shouldn't just all vote Exe. Yes, I think he's a good choice, but we have plenty of time. Don't let the future of the game depend on page 3 reads.

[Umbrage]

This is like the third time Umbrage has made a very obvious deflection for TS. To be honest, we can't kill these two fast enough.

Not a deflection, a defence. I really think TS is newb town, and there have got to be scum on his 'wagon'. (Can there be a wagon without votes?)

I have not seen one decent argument FOR voting Exe when one player hasn't even posted yet, and others have yet to provide useful content. For God's sake people, WAIT. Having a full day is good for town. Rushing things increases the chance of error, and is scummy. And everyone trusting one player is stupid. I haven't seen anyone suggest an alternative to Exe.

FoS: Haschel Cedricson

Seriously, what the hell were you thinking when you wrote that last post? This is anti-town to the extreme.

[Umbrage]

People actually do things on Valentine's Day?

[Umbrage]

*agrees with most of everything Amrun says*

I have to say though, I don't see Vezok as scummy. He's the same from when I played with him for an admittedly short time. His worst flaw is sheeping Exe, which can be applied to a lot of players here, including HC, who I see as much more scummy, and who I notice you left out of your list of reads. Granted, if Exe is scum, Vezok will go up in scumminess, but I don't see any reason to suspect him that much right now.

[Umbrage]

Amrun, while giving a full and complete set of reads, does need to participate more from now on. Lurking, then posting one huge post, then lurking again (IF it happens) is unacceptable. (<preventative maintenance.)

ARGH! You say this SIXTEEN MINUTES after he posted! Preventative maintenance my ass. Try blatant mudslinging.

twisted needs to be less scummy. Or less Nooby. Whichever.

Translation: Please tell me which way we're leaning on the TS issue so I can side with the majority.

SV, please say who you think is scum, and who you think is town. Or at least just one of those things.

[Umbrage]

twistedspoon strikes me as someone who knows too much. Why would there be an investigative role or some type of doctor? How are you so certain of that?

Meh. It could be rolefishing, but it could just as easily be an attempt to root out a fakesoftclaim, or pointing out a flaw in TS' argument. I still think there're bigger fish to fry.

[Umbrage]

@ Exe: Either shut up or get out. You've slipped from the best player in the game to the worst.

Players who are scummy:

charter
Shattered Viewpoint
vezokpiraka
CooLDoG

Players who are town:

Umbrage (duh)
Amrun
Twistedspoon
Final Fires
Ant_to_the_max

Players who need a slap to the face:

Exe
Haschel Cedricson
Tragedy
StrungOver

At this point, there is no way I am giving my vote to Exe. We need someone who isn't likely to fly off the handle and/or abuse their power. Exe is too egotistical, too unpredictable. As for who I do want as an executioner, well I would be my first choice, but failing that either Amrun or Twistedspoon.

I admit I may have been wrong about vezok. I'll have to look into him.

@ Haschel: Hey, why don't you go form the Exe Fan Club, and leave the rest of us to play the game? OK? Good.

@ Tragedy: Are you playing this game or not? Make a choice.

[Umbrage]

This post is all about: vezokpiraka

At first, I didn't think that infamous quote was an attempt at rolefishing. But then I found this beauty in his very first post:

Also before we decide on who to execute I think we should wait for a claim.

So, I think it's safe to say that vezok has only one thing on his mind: who the PRs are.

This quote supports the theory:

I asked that question because I wanted to see a reaction and something else. I won't tell what that something else is.

Then why haven't you commented on the reaction you got? It seems to me that that would be the first thing you'd do upon getting the reaction you were looking for, share your results. Otherwise, what good does it do? You don't say what reaction you were looking for or why it is important. Instead, you post this:

I really don't like how amrun is trying to appear so original for the sake originality. I looks like scum trying to stand out from the crowd. I don't know why they would do that but that is what it makes me think of.

What is the difference between scum trying to stand out from the crowd and town trying to stand out from the crowd? How does standing out from the crowd help scum? Usually they want to blend in. You are qualifying your scum read by implying it's more of a gut instinct, which is basically a back door.

Wait! What?
How did I sheep this game SV?

I didn't even vote someone.

In his very next post:

unvote
vote Exe

So much for your defence.

The one thing that makes me hesitate from saying vezok is scum is his blatant sheeping and buddying toward Exe. It looks like genuine confused town.

Thoughts?

[Umbrage]

Important aspects? Like spamming VOTE X NAO?

Can you at least admit that his play has taken a hell of a dive? I don't even know WHY you want Exe to kill someone. Or who you want him to kill.

[Umbrage]

@ HC: Once we choose an executioner, it's like a lynch, all talking stops. We have to choose who we want to kill before we vote for our executioner.

I still don't want to vote Exe. He is the worst possible player we could choose to be an executioner because he is the most likely to take matters into his own hands and kill someone other than who we agreed on. Scum or town, he's a liability. I can easily see him being town, killing a townie that we did not agree on, and then getting killed himself.

[Umbrage]

@ Tragedy: I read TS as newb town, and he seems to be trying to scumhunt which is more than I can say for some players here. I was pushing you more than SO because I know you're an active contributer to the site, I've seen you in Mish Mash. I knew that if I pushed you, I'd get results. As I see it, the most important things to do is decide who to kill both today and tonight. I generally consider sheeping more of a newb tell than a scum tell.

My execution choices of this minute which are likely to change in the next:

Shattered Viewpoint
charter

[Umbrage]

Regarding Exe, I'm reminded of my second game on this site. There was a guy who was playing a lot like Exe, arrogant, rude, aggressive. I led a bandwagon on him and he flipped scum. I maintained then, and I maintain now that aggressiveness, bullying, tunneling, whatever you want to call it, it's anti-town. It is hard to get a good read on an aggressive player.

I still don't like how SV is hesitant to give scum reads. I also see charter as increasing in scumminess, he pushes wagons while staying in the background. His last post has few logical arguments, it's all "this player is scummy" and "this post is really bad" but he doesn't say why.

Haschel is a big blank for me. I really can't say whether his Exe-worship is scummy or not, on the one hand I can understand why he wants an executioner chosen quickly, on the other hand he's done almost nothing besides pushing for that.

Amrun and Final Fires are the most pro-town players here. Anyone who says Twistedspoon hasn't done anything isn't reading his posts. He's making content, he's not winning any MVPs but he's making content. The main difference between newb town and newb scum, in my experience, is that when newb scum come under pressure, they crack. Badly. I'm not getting that vibe from Twisty. He seems to be doing his best. Please compare him with vezok, and tell me which is the better kill. I'm not saying I want a vezok kill, I'm saying that he's a better kill than Twisty.

[Umbrage]

@ charter: My concern is that your scum reads have been on people that are already under fire, especially from Exe. TS in particular. You repeatedly say TS is scum, but I don't see where you say WHY he is scum. I'm left to assume that your reasons are the same as those that were already said, which is even scummier.

@ Exe: Basically, you're telling us to trust you. Your aggressiveness is a good thing if you are town. If you are scum, it is bad. The debate over you being executioner boils down to the same thing: it's good if you are town, but bad if you are scum. The problem is that as of yet, I'm not ready to trust you, and a big part of why I don't trust you is because you seem to assume that you should have my trust without earning it.

[Umbrage]

@ Exe: 'K. I trust Amrun.

VOTE: Amrun

I notice there's a Exe clique forming, which consists of charter, Haschel, vezok, and to some extent SV. While I am unsure of Exe being scum, some of the players I just mentioned have got to be scum. The main reason this is a bad thing is how Exe's scum and town reads are determined by whether or not a player agrees with him. So it's currently unlikely that Exe will turn against a member of his clique, which in turn makes it unlikely that one of the clique will attack the other. In short, we have a group of players who treat each other as confirmed town with no good reasoning. If you are one of the players I mentioned and you are town, I urge you to take an objective look at this game, and the players in it. This clique is the town's biggest obstacle at the moment.

[Umbrage]

I urge you to stop challenging others to take an objective look at the game when you yourself have not done so. My reads are not based on who agrees or disagrees with me, and your attempt to spin things as so shows a subjective view of events.

Notice that Exe doesn't really say anything with this post. Two sentences, the first says I'm not objective, which is a completely subjective statement, and I am curious to see if and how Exe attempts to prove that. The second is basically "NO I DIDNT". Let's see, you think charter and HC are town, they've been sheeping you for most of the game. You think Amrun, TS, and myself are scummy, we're the only ones that think you might not be town. Care to present a counter-argument? Or are you content with empty mudslinging and bullshit?

[Umbrage]

@ vezok: Any particular reason why you like Exe as executioner? And what are your reasons for those other three reads?

[Umbrage]

I agree with everything Twistedspoon just said. vezokpiraka has a worse rolefishing record, and it's clear he's not even trying to scumhunt. I do not see how it is possible to think Twisty is more scummy than Vezok.

I've been meaning to give some attention to SO, but there's always been something more urgent. And I feel better making cases on people that I know will read them and respond, but hey. I'll give it a shot.

[Umbrage]

Ant stole my thunder.

Everyone: vote Final Fires for the nightkill. Final Fires: kill Exe. Even if he's town, he's now used his power and is basically a confirmed VT, not someone we want alive. Exe: congrats, you win the worst player award for this game.

[Umbrage]

First off, Exe, if you think you are confirmed town, you are delusional. In fact, a daykill ability seems perfect for scum, since they can lose their nightkill. Although when I said a VT should die, I was thinking of a normal mafia game, because then VTs left alive make it easier for scum to narrow down PRs. I'm not sure if the same concept applies in this game. Thoughts?

Exe, you have some nerve calling me anti-town when what you did was the stupidest, most anti-town thing anyone in this game has done.

My preferred kill order:

Exe (even without the VT logic, he's still done the most harm to the town)
charter (for reasons already stated)
vezokpiraka (for reasons already stated)
Shattered Viewpoint (I still see him as moderately scummy, but he's been surpassed by the above three)

I'm fine with any of those dead.

[Umbrage]

Let me live tonight. You can execute me in the day but I need tonight. Seriously. Just don't kill me.

OK, vezok is now my #1.

Exe, if your little power trip has proven anything, it's that

I

was

right

about Twisty. But you can't accept that, can you? It would kill you to just say: you were right, wouldn't it? Actually, all of your reactions are rather convenient for you, isn't it? My case against you partially hinges on you finding Amrun scummy. Surprise surprise, you now no longer find Amrun scummy.

Your reads are bullshit. Say

why

my reactions were scummy, if you can, and you'll get a proper response, and maybe some other people will listen to you.

EDIT: So, the reason you found my reaction scummy is because of my case on you? In that case please explain why my case is flawed.

@ Haschel: Can you make a post that does not glorify Exe?

[Umbrage]

Umbrage's little "I'm so right" show is hilarious.
Of course scum have accurate reads. You know who are town and who aren't

Also Umbrage, if you are really town, you'll do well to lose the attitude and stop throwing a hissy fit. You'd be much better off actually scumhunting than crying about whether or not you're right and I'm wrong.

Oh and Vezo is so obv-town it hurts. The case on him is still crap, even though he stupidly claimed.

Again, look carefully at this post. Exe says absolutely nothing. He claims I'm scummy but he does not say why. He says Vezok (and it is Vezok, not Vezo) is town, but he does not say why. For all his posturing, he has yet to form a decent argument. The above post is called bullshit. There is no truth to it, he does not even attempt to prove his statements.

[Umbrage]

My wanting Exe to be the night executioner in a specific scenario is completely different then my wanting the person who seemed to be the likeliest choice for day executioner to be elected as soon as possible. Your attempt to frame these as equivalent is scummy.

No, I find the fact that each of your posts revolves around Exe to be scummy.

[Umbrage]

was hoping TS would die and would flip town

LOL. Seriously, what the fuck gave you that idea? I'm quite interested as to how you got the impression that I want him dead when I've been defending him from the start. Also, no, having a daykill does not mean someone is confirmed town. Scum can have PRs too, you know.

@ Tragedy: OK, I'm not quite sure what that tangled mass of sentences directed at me means exactly, but I get that you think I'm blindly following Amrun. If you look back, you'll find that her scum reads and kill choices differ from mine substantially. I was voting for her mainly because I trust her to kill who we all agree on.

[Umbrage]

This is my 'actually' post.

If his daykill had been real, I don't see how it's a logical jump to assume that he's confirmed town. In fact, it would be mostly the opposite. Ending the day early, killing before we got a chance to discuss who gets the NK, etc all would've confirmed him as scum for me. And if he had been town and did kill a scum, I also don't see the logic in killing him off. Can you explain why your first reaction would be to assume he's confirmed VT?

Actually, it's been my position all along that if Exe really had a daykill that would not mean he's confirmed town.

Cry all you want about me not explaining myself. It's not a good tell, and it particularly stopped being a good tell when I stopped doing in in every game I've been in since I started Frenzy Mafia. You can check me on this. Frenzy mafia, townie, major hand in lynching all three scum, never a reasoned thought on paper during the thread. Gorrad's Fictional Characters mafia, about the same time I started Frenzy mafia, I stopped posting legitimate reasoning and started playing aggressive-mode-extreme.

Actually, it is a good tell, I've used it in the past with great success. It's called bullshit, defined as not lying or truth-telling, but not caring about the truth. This masks the truth, and hampers the town. I don't care if it's your meta, in my opinion meta is usually worthless. I have a scum read on you, and it's mainly because of the bullshit. As I said, I've faced a player like you before, and he flipped scum. I think you will as well. And it is not your job to just make reads. It is your job to make reads and convince us that your reads are accurate. I'm not convinced.

@Umbrage:You moved from town to null in my eyes. This kiling VT business has me worried.

Actually, I got that from another player on here, I think it's a pretty common strategy. As I said though, I'm not sure it applies to this game.

[Umbrage]

@ Exe: Not even trying to convince other people that you are town or that certain people are scum is practically the definition of bad play. Are you trying to get a reputation as some sort of a cowboy? Because the only reputation you're getting is that of a VI.

You know what's really amusing? How hypocritical you are.

Meta is trying using a player's history to try and tell their alignment. Using a tactic that has worked before is not meta. Even you want to argue that it is, they are completely different concepts. If I shoot a gun and kill someone once, then if I want to kill someone, I will shoot a gun at them, just like I will use the same tactic again if it works before. This is called learning. Meta is different. What you're suggesting is like playing poker with someone, and assuming that because they bluffed once, they will always bluff. It doesn't work. You can't predict other people's behaviour, especially when that person knows that their behaviour will probably be examined. You can however, predict the effectiveness of various tactics.

[quote="Exe"Despite the word "if," she specifically told me I was the worst player, meaning that subconsciously she thought I was a bad town. Her instincts told her that I was town, even though she tried to make it seem like it was only an if.[/quote]

Worst = anti-town
Worst =/= bad townie

Not seeing how you could make that mistake. I'd say it's pretty clear what I meant.

Amrun, begin reading here: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2757550

I guess I should change it back, but it's been fun being a female.

[Umbrage]

Fuck. I really thought the daykill was real.

If more than half of the people alive want me to claim I will claim.

Every time I start thinking maybe this guy's town, he goes and ups his scumminess.

[Umbrage]

So here's a tip: START SCUMHUNTING. Because I honestly couldn't care less whether you think I am a VI.

Your response to my finding you scummy is to tell me to start scumhunting?

You're telling me that in your anger, you gave me an award for being a good scum?

Wat?

If you thought I was scum AND thought I was anti-town, YOU WOULDN'T CRITICIZE ME, YOU WOULD CONGRATULATE ME.

Uh, no, because good scum are pro-town. Or at least they don't get caught doing anti-town things. Looking anti-town is always bad, unless you're a jester.

[Umbrage]

Being a VI does not exclude you from being scum. But I don't think you're technically a VI, although I think you're going to be getting that reputation. I think you're trying to build a meta for yourself.

[Umbrage]

Nice backpedaling, but VI is a term that is used on townies.

I've never heard that before. As I understand it, a VI is any player that plays badly and refuses to improve.

Maybe you should actually read the games I play. Your reasoning is basically shit when you consider the fact that I do this all the time. This is a strategy.

That just proves my theory. You don't create a meta with one game.

And if you want me to stop 'backpedaling', maybe you should stop putting words in my mouth.

[Umbrage]

No, it proves my theory. Because it's the strategy with which I hunt scum. That's why I've done it in my TOWN GAMES.

All the more reason why you would try to do it as scum. As I said, all meta is WIFOM, and worthless.

I'm not interested in getting into a posting war, all it does is spam the thread and distract the town.

[Umbrage]

@ Exe: I don't find you scum because of your meta. I find you scum because you deliberately playing in a way that harms the town.

Exe.

ExeExe.

ExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExeExe.

He needs to die. This game has become all about him. He's allowing players like StrungOver to slip underneath the radar. He's not contributing anything that doesn't revolve around himself. This is not a healthy situation. I believe he is scum, but I would kill him even if he is town. We can't scumhunt like this. As for the nightkill, I suggest Vezok, as most of us agree he is scummy, but that's debatable. Exe's death is not. It needs to happen if town is to do anything.

UNVOTE: whoever I'm voting

I will vote whoever promises to kill Exe.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage shut up. You are just posting fluff and accusing Exe. Stop it.

Umbrage shut up. You are just accusing Exe. Stop it.

Buddy much?

[Umbrage]

So why in the world would Vezok act the way he is if he was actually scum? You yourself said he doesn't seem like an idiot, so I fail to see why someone you don't think is an idiot would blatantly buddy with another player as scum.

All WIFOM.

[Umbrage]

You know your argument about me being scum and being anti-town in other games to mask the fact that I'm scum? That's WIFOM too.

Again, putting words in my mouth. I only said that to prove your argument, based on meta, was WIFOM.

[Umbrage]

VOTE: Amrun In case I wasn't already.

@ Tragedy: Your play thus far has been active lurking. What I've been saying to Exe also applies to you: you have to convince us of your reads using valid arguments. Simply saying that so-and-so is scum doesn't cut it.

I'm getting a better read on Haschel. I need to ISO Ant.

I still feel that Exe is the best kill for today, he's a liability. For the nightkill, I'm currently torn between vezok and charter. ISO charter, he's said nothing except "UMBRAGE IS SCUMMY DURR". I see no problem with having Amrun as the executioner for both day and night, we should only have to worry about who the executioner is during lylo, unless there's something I'm missing. We've all agreed that the scum most likely do not have control of the NK.

[Umbrage]

If I am elected executioner, I swear to act only in the best interests of the town, with the town's consent, and not to abuse my power for any personal reasons.

[Umbrage]

So we've decided on Amrun as executioner. Good. Now we can focus on who to kill.

Exe's latest posts have softened my read on him. I would be fine with his death, but it might not be a necessity.

If we are looking for information on other players' alignments based on connections with the dead, the best choices are vezokpiraka and Twistedspoon. Because they've both been attacked and defended a lot in this game by pretty much everyone, their flip will show who is most likely scum and town. If you're the sort to give credence to that type of logic, that is.

The three players with the worst activity and content rates are charter, Tragedy, and StrungOver. Of these three, charter still strikes me as the scummiest. I see no reason to kill the others I mentioned until they start posting more often.

I still hold that Shattered Viewpoint is scummy. Here are just a few problems with his posts:

He's very critical of Amrun when she starts posting, warning her not to disappear again, then disagrees with her, saying that it is possible to choose an executioner too soon. A couple posts later, he votes her, saying she's his top town read.

The "Stop it, your scummy is showing." to Haschel. That just looks really bad to me. Not something town would say.

For most of the game, he maintains that I am his top suspect, but in ISO #19, he says that his scum read on me was based on ONE FUCKING POST. He then proceeds to declare Exe his number one suspect.

In the same post, he says CooLDoG is scummy for not thinking that the day ended with an executioner chosen, even though I THOUGHT THE EXACT SAME THING. Haschel did as well, and Haschel made his scum list. I was his number one suspect for a long time. Why am I not considered scum anymore?

I have no idea what happened to his case on Twistedspoon. If anything it should be stronger now, since SV accused TS of misquoting him.

tl; dr: SV switches from buddying Exe to buddying Amrun midgame. He drops cases with no explanation, and appears to always try and side the majority.

MY IDEAL KILL LIST:

1. charter
2. Shattered Viewpoint

MY COMPROMISE KILL LIST:

1. vezokpiraka
2. Exe

[Umbrage]

I don't see why we wouldn't kill at night. It's like wasting a lynch. Why do you support a no-kill?

I find charter slightly scummier mainly because of his tunneling. It's like he's trying to pull an Exe through really aggressive play, but he unlike Exe, he doesn't really seem to care one way or the other, he's been saying I'm scummy for a while but for someone so sure I'm scum, he doesn't push for my death. He's been throwing scum reads around a lot, but few town reads. I really don't know why he voted Amrun. The way he did it makes it look like an obligation. He doesn't really say who he wants dead other than me, and it doesn't look like I'm dying anytime soon so he's not helping at all.

[Umbrage]

@ Twistedspoon: I see the confusion, when I said it wasn't a necessity, I meant that in the context of my previous posts when I said that we would likely have to kill Exe before any scumhunting could be done. I do think he's scummy, but he's not as scummy as others.

[Umbrage]

The only problem is that if scum get the kill, they can still kill nobody, and lead us down the wrong track. This is the most likely outcome if the killer is known. And we still don't know if we have a vig, or even an SK. That could fuck things up pretty nicely.

It's not a bad idea though, particularly if we can't agree on someone to kill, or someone to trust with the kill.

[Umbrage]

@Umbrage: Umm...how in the world is it BAD if the scum no-kill?

Well, it could lead us to believe that they can't, when they can. I agree the risk is small, it's not a BAD idea, I'm just not sure it's a GOOD idea.

[Umbrage]

CooLDoG is being replaced, isn't he? And StrungOver is on V/LA. I do NOT like killing players that are absent. I want to see them make some more content first. Same goes for Tragedy.

I'm pretty sure the actual reason is "I find charter scummier because he's on to me".

I believe this warrants an LOL. Why would I bother OMGUSing you when I don't even know why you think I'm scum, and have made no effort to convince the town I'm scum?

@ Final Fires and somewhat to Amrun: I can't help but notice you're picking on players who are absent or haven't made much content. Going after weak players like that strikes me as scummy. We shouldn't be hunting minnows, let's fry the big fish. Go for the scum that are active. Charter. SV. Exe. Vezok.

I have a gut read of SO as scum and CD as town. But that's just gut. I'm not willing to decide a kill on it. Going for one of them is a cop-out. A lottery. Maybe scum, maybe lurky town. Who knows?

I don't like how FF mentions an SO kill, then Exe and Amrun are suddenly all over it. I have a feeling an SO bandwagon will attract scum like shit attracts flies.

[Umbrage]

@ charter: I can't very well say you're lurking when I'm responding to your post, can I? But at the same time your activity and content per post is below par.

Still don't know why Exe wants to kill me, other than I disagree with him. Still not liking an SO kill.

@ Twistedspoon: Never, ever, ever answer a question directed at someone else for them.

To be honest, charter's beginning to look a little better, but I still think he's the best kill for today. I'm very interested in seeing SV's response to me though.

[Umbrage]

Dammit. On the one hand, Exe looks like he's helping out his buddy charter with a chainsaw on Ant. On the other hand, he does make some good points. Dammitdammitdammit.

Actually, Vezok saying SO is a good kill proves my point, a wagon on an absent player will draw out the scum. Vezok just became more scummy.

@ Exe: You've said vezokpiraka normally plays like this. Is that the only reason you find him town?

[Umbrage]

Ok. But you didn't explain how in post 396 you call me "scum that are active" if you think my activity and content are below par. You accuse me of tunneling, and call me scum for it, but you're tunneling on me just as much. Tunneling isn't a scumtell in my book, but your selective application of logic sure is.

1) You are active, you appear to be able to post when you wish. However you have disappeared for portions of this game, and as far as content goes, you are mostly pushing other people's wagons. I believe the term is 'active lurker'. You can provide content, but you often don't.

2) As I understand it, tunneling is focusing on one player to the exclusion of others. How then, do you explain my arguments with Exe if I'm tunneling on you? Partway through the game I had almost forgotten about you, you can see in my ISO. It was only when we began to seriously discuss the kill that I brought you up again. That's not tunneling.

[Umbrage]

If you honestly don't know why I find you scummy, I'm not going to spell it out even further for you. Try reading my posts, see how you do then.

[Umbrage]

I'm pretty sure the other players will be able to tell who's full of it. If they need some more persuading, then I'll respond.

[Umbrage]

@ HC: Then you clearly don't know what buddying is. Buddying is not saying you want to kill the person who is your partner. And I see Tragedy as lurking, not active lurking. As charter said, he manages to post every day, and yet has not been up to par with the rest of us when it comes to providing content. That's the definition of active lurking. I have never heard this term 'Chewbacca defence', but I'm not sure what the picture has to do with anything. I'm not the first player to post a picture in this thread.

[Umbrage]

I'm not trying to defend myself. Make a proper case against me and I'll defend myself.

[Umbrage]

@ SO: Why is Vezok your top scum read over Exe?

[Umbrage]

WHAT. THE. FUCK.

I take a couple days off, and everyone starts competing for THE SCUM OF THE YEAR AWARD!!!!!!!!!!!

FF and Amrun might as well be a hydra account. Suddenly they're all over SO. Exe as well. And of course SV comes in and jumps SMACK onto the bandwagon!!!!!!

What did I tell you? An SO wagon will draw scum. In the last couple pages, FF has gone from leaning town to likely scum in my eyes. Amrun as well, despite the fact that their kill targets are the same.

Charter actually gets townie points. He ignored the SO wagon, and pretty much admitted to tunneling, something I don't see scum doing. Bad town, yes. Scum, no.

I can see a few potential scum teams in this mess:

Amrun/Final Fires/Exe: This one actually makes a lot of sense. They distance each other, but never say they want another one dead. Exe acts out, Amrun reels him in, they distract the town and Amrun gets townie points. Final Fires proposes one strategy early in the game, Exe says he's wrong and proposes something else. Either way, one of them is a town leader. The more I think about it, the more likely this seems.

Shattered Viewpoint/vezokpiraka/Exe: Notice how SV and vezok jump on the SO wagon, riding on the coattails of the bigger players. Also note how Exe never found the other two scummy in this game. SO listed all three of them on his scum list, there's some more lovely motivation to jump on his wagon.

Tragedy/Shattered Viewpoint/Final Fires: It's likely that the scum have different activity levels. These three players have been more or less ignoring each other all game. FF reads SV as slightly scum to null all game, but won't really say much about him or give a definite read. SV has nothing on FF.

So who are my top suspects now? I have no clue. I need to think... I need calm restored to this thread... I need to re-read...

[Umbrage]

EBTWODP:

Amrun as well, despite the fact that their kill targets are the same.

Let this read: "Amrun has been attacking SO, despite the fact that their kill targets are the same."

[Umbrage]

So you're telling me you were psychic and knew that you'd find SO townie once he finally posted?

Tee hee. Typical Exe. Completely ignore everything I say and attribute ridiculous statements to me. Show me where I said SO was town. Because I actually said I had a gut read of scum on him.

Umbrage, you're really not making a hell of a lot more sense than SO anymore, which is a disappointment to me since I had a strong town read on you in the beginning of the game and agreed with a lot of what you said. That's gone out the window now. :/

OMGUS? I'm wondering...

[Umbrage]

I read SO as town who thinks he's always right. I'm not backing up his flawed arguments. SO doesn't concern me right now, I'm concerned over the sudden bandwagon that has formed on him.

[Umbrage]

I can really see Umbrage's gut says SO is scum, then he finds him town.

I can only think of a sole reason; He hasn't even been accused by SO.

I bet Umbrage goes nuts on every single person who votes against him.

Really? Prove it. Until you do, you're just wasting everyone's time with pointless speculation and slander. Oh wait, you've been doing that all game.

---------------------------------------------------------

And I will not respond to every single argument made against me, mainly because there is no point in responding. If you want to interpret every single thing I do as scummy, I can't stop you. Have fun with that.

[Umbrage]

Welcome Setael!!!

Final Fires' case on me revolves on the fact that I find SO town. The main reason I find SO town is because I see no reason to find him scummy. I find the reactions of the other players to be far more scummy. I find FF's attack on me opportunistic, and it sends a clear message: get on the SO wagon or we will lynch you. To respond to it in detail:

But just a few posts before he has pointless speculation and slander:

That's called scumhunting. I've backed up all those possible scum teams with reasoning and logic as to why they are likely scum teams. If you disagree, then provide a proper counter-argument instead of brushing it all under the carpet.

Although ironically, he has suggested that Tragedy is scum because of her activity level.

Wrong. Try again. I did not say I found Tragedy town. I said I did not want her killed until she could provide more content.

First chainsaw defense of SO.

I made a prediction that scum would jump on the wagon. One of the players who is considered to be scummy by most of us here jumped on the wagon. I pointed this out. How the hell is that a chainsaw defence?

Like Exe pointed out too, if he had a scummy read on someone, how would a bandwagon on them draw out scum? Plus, most people weren't on board until after SO started posting, making his earlier argument of SO drawing scum invalid.

First off, you make it sound like SO just magically appeared. He was posting before now, enough for me to get a feel for the kind of player he is. I knew he was an easy target. Scum or town, he is an easy target. And going after easy targets is anti-town.

So he thought SO was scum. But was also trying to stop an SO lynch. But then he also thought I was scum for proposing SO be executed. Anyone else see a problem with this?

Try again. My read on SO, when I was pushed to give one, was based on a gut feeling from a few posts of his. But even if I was absolutely sure he was scum, I would not want him killed until he made some content. Understand? It is anti-town to go after easy targets and lurking players. Scum want those easy targets to be lynched, so they will flock to the wagon. I stand by that logic, logic which shows you are possible scum. Now you are either not reading my posts, or deliberately misinterpreting them.

The only read he has on SO is his flawed arguments. What could possibly lead him to the assumption that SO's town if that's all that he's had to read? His gut. But just a few posts up she said she had a scum gut read on him. Whoops! That's why he refused to answer mine and Am's quesiton; he knew he would get caught in a lie. If he had any good or pro-town reason for doing so, he would've pointed them out instead of essentially saying that he couldn't answer the question.

Allow me to answer this with a question: why are so concerned over my gut read? That's all it was. Gut. Best guess. I had next to nothing to go on. If you honestly think that he hasn't posted enough to evaluate that read, this is obviously your first mafia game. It's not that I find SO totally town. It's that the reactions to his bandwagon are WAY worse than anything he's done. At this point, it's not who's scummy, you're all scummy. It's who's the most scummy.

I clearly hit a nerve, this sudden attack on me stinks of paranoia. I'm leaning towards an FF/Amrun/Exe scum team even more now. The one thing that makes me hesitate is vezok and SV's SCUMMY reactions to the wagons on SO and myself.

[Umbrage]

@ Exe: Just because you can't or won't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense. And your eloquent use of the word 'retarded' has finally earned you the honour of having your post reported. I won't bother responding to your post in any more detail because it's little more than ad hominem attacks, posturing, and other garbage. Tell me when you're ready to cut the crap and play this game.

[Umbrage]

If you don't die today, I guarantee you will die tomorrow.

Wait, what does this mean exactly?

[Umbrage]

While I would prefer that we kill SO, I wouldn't at all be sad if umbrage were to die, either.

Sateal, I don't like your style already. Note to self: look at cooldog toMorrow.

LOL! I bet you would!

Pointless raging from you is definitely going out of the rage level.

That wasn't rage. That me telling you that if you're going to accuse me of something, you should have the balls to back it up. Nice dodge by the way.

So you find charter very scummy, but when he starts to improve his logic, you thought it was a good idea to kill him today. Yet, you mention he gets townie points for 'ignoring' the SO wagon.

I'm not stupid. I'm not saying that everything charter does is a scumtell. That's because I'm trying to find scum. I don't give a shit if the scum aren't who I'd like them to be. I have to find them anyway. So when my primary suspect starts looking more town, I will admit it. This is called being pro-town. I shouldn't have to be spelling this shit out for you.

Although your gut screams out that SO is scum, you're mentioning that he doesn't concern you much as you think he's town. There's your damn contradiction towards the situation itself, as you're just going to ignore the situation of SO. SO is no longer absent for the moment, yet you're not really observing the situation of SO and trying to get Exe killed. [Who knew?]

Try again. My scum read on SO was a weak gut feeling I gave pages ago. Holding me to that now is stupid. And I'd really like to know how you interpret my latest posts as 'trying to get Exe killed'.

I haven't posted much content towards the damn whole day of the shit, and yet, you dislike trying to get inactive people killed. Guess what? You're trying to point everybody at me so I could actually post good content while somehow feeling threatened. That's basically trying to make everyone more scummier than you think they could be, by making me the easier target, that's not something a good town would do.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Seriously, I cannot grasp the point you are trying to make. This makes no sense.

Umbrage, you still have dodged the question why you think SO is town. This is all that you have to judge him by: RVS, suggesting a mass claim, and arguments full of misrep and logical fallacies. If you're entire argument is that you don't want to go after someone who's not producing enough content, why are you still against an SO execution? He has begun to produce content, and none of it's pro-town.

I've already stated why I think SO is town. Maybe I could give a better read on him if I didn't have to defend myself from all this bullshit.

You just provided three weak mafia teams, with no real reasoning. If you don't have a case on someone that's independent of other people, it's not a good case. That's not scum hunting, it's just pointless speculation and mudslinging. Give me any three players and I can reason how they're on the same scum team.

Try again. I've given my reasoning for why I believe those are potential teams. If you disagree, ARGUE MY LOGIC. Don't try this shit about how if it's not on a single person, it's worthless.

I never said you said Tragedy was town. I said that you said Tragedy was scum; you're only reasoning was because "it's likely the scum have different activity levels". That was the only thing you put against Tragedy in your case against her. Why would Tragedy be scum for having a different activity level, but not SO?

I've already said I find Tragedy scummy, so I didn't feel the need to elaborate. But here's something to add: hopping on my wagon.

Definition of a chainsaw defense: "A player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum." Now compare this to how you defended SO by attacking Vez:

Except that that is totally meaningless, since I already stated I found Vezok scummy.

Plus by saying that, you put player's under the illusion that if they say anything about SO, they'll look scum. Scaring players out of discussing SO is not pro-town.

If you think there is no difference between a bandwagon and a good case, and that town cannot tell the difference, hit yourself over the head RIGHT NOW.

SO is going after vezok. Wouldn't that make him anti-town, because vez is an easy target at this point?

This is something that I questioned SO about.

I don't like the bolded part of this post at all. But under that reasoning, why did you accuse of Vezok and Tragedy of being scum? Aren't they just as easy targets, who at this point have made just as little content? In fact, SO has actually posted more than either of them have.

Well, for one thing, Vezok has his guard dog Exe defending him. And my case on Tragedy grew as her content did.

This contradicts itself. You say you had next to nothing to go on, but then in the next sentence you say that he has posted enough to evaluate a read.

Nonono, NOW he's posted enough that my previous read on him is worthless.

Also: I agree that we should use the nightkill. Not doing so is just like no-lynching, and we should apply the same rules that we use for no-lynching.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, how do you explain listing charter in your "minimal activity" list, stating that we should not kill people with little content as it's a crapshoot, and then proceeding to push a charter kill, all in the same post?

I'm pretty sure I covered this earlier. Lemme check... YES!

It WILL NOT BE AS INFORMED OF A KILL. I guarantee you that.

Actually, if we use the plan of "if X is scum, lynch Y, if X is town, lynch Z", it will be more informed.

[Umbrage]

@ FF: You have got to be kidding me. You just refused to listen to my defence, and instead just pushed for my kill. How nice. Apparently for you, the last couple pages have given you far more information about how the scum is than the entirety of the game. I find that hard to believe.

@ Exe: No, we decide who to NK today. That means we have as much time as the first kill, and more information because of the first flip.

[Umbrage]

I find SO slightly town for a few reasons, mainly because it seems odd for newbie scum to play so aggressively, to not be shaken by the wagon on them. I think much of the case on him is exaggerated, and points more toward newbie than scum. Considering that he hasn't been keeping up with the thread, I would be more surprised if none of his arguments were wrong.

Town is not doing it's job. SV, charter, and vezok have all slunk onto the SO and Umbrage bandwagons without providing any original reasoning and town just ignores it. This is blatant bandwagoning people, but you're so caught up in your "should we kill Umbrage or SO" crap that you don't see it. Haschel says he wants to kill both me and Tragedy. But Tragedy and I both think the other is scum! How is that kind of logic OK with you? Why are these players slipping beneath the radar?

Most of the attacks on me depend on the fact that I find SO town. AKA I did not jump on the bandwagon when it came around. That's because I knew someone had to stay objective. You've already got an army of scum bandwagoners backing you. I'm not going to become a sheep just to avoid negative attention.

[Umbrage]

@ Setael: SV is one of my top scum candidates, although I haven't yet decided who is the best kill. Right now, I'm trying to decide between SV, FF, Exe, and vezok.

@ Exe: How objective am I compared to say... charter?

[Umbrage]

@ Tragedy: Quote where I said I wanted you killed today.

[Umbrage]

Playing the newbie card isn't a good defense for him. This is my second game of mafia, but you still consider me scum even though I've "played aggressively" and didn't back when you accused me of scum. It doesn't worry me that you defend SO; it's that you pick and choose who you who you want your ideals to apply to (and the contradictions). Plus, none of his arguments have been right either.

Aside: Really? Only second game? Could've fooled me!

Both town and scum can use bad logic. Right now, the most damning thing I see on SO is how he put vezok above Exe in his list of suspects. And I know it's a pain whenever 'the newbie card' is brought up, but on the other hand, not bringing it up is more of a risk.

The attacks on you aren't based on the fact that you find SO town. It's the fact that you find him so town you're willing to chainsaw defend him, even with no valid reason to. I see no reason why a townie would do that. Like I mentioned earlier, you haven't refuted one point in the case against SO. You don't disagree with the case against SO; you disagree with him being lynched. That concerns me.

I'm not defending SO because I see no reason to do so. I hate it when players cover other people's asses, town or scum. But if he is scum, then either he has buddies on his wagon, or the rest of the town has suddenly jumped on his wagon, which I find unlikely. And if he's town, he almost certainly has hopeful scum on his wagon. Either way, the wagon seems more interesting to me than SO right now.

I suppose you could say I'm playing Devil's Advocate. SO has enough people going after him right now, anything I say will just be echoing previous arguments. I prefer my own suspects.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

The Final Fires/Amrun/Exe theory I put forth is probably wrong. But seeing those three players gang up on SO hit my scumdar. Call me paranoid, but you remember how in Nineteen-Eighty-Four there were three huge empires that were constantly at war with one another, and yet were careful never to upset the balance of power between them for fear of losing control? That's how I read FF, Amrun, and Exe. They bicker, but never really put scum reads on each other. There were never any other serious candidates for executer other than those three. Due the at least temporary absence of a nightkill, scum can act as pro-town as they want and never be questioned as to why they are still alive. So it makes sense that scum would try to take charge of the town.

The above logic is why I would like a kill of either Exe or Final Fires. But there's another part of me that is just screaming for a dead SV. And then there's vezok and Tragedy. Decisions, decisions...

[Umbrage]

VOTE: Shattered Viewpoint

[Umbrage]

No, that's a bad idea. We are going to tell the night executioner to kill one person if the day kill flips town, and another if he/she flips scum. We haven't decided on the night executioner yet. I think the night executioner should also depend on the way the kill flips.

And if you're wondering why I'm not defending myself, well at this point I don't care. You are not doing your job. You are not scumhunting. HC wants to kill me now, I have no idea why, other than I'm an available bandwagon. Seriously, this is horrendously bad town play. None of you are trying to scumhunt anymore. I'm sick of being the only one noticing these things. Get it together, now.

[Umbrage]

Game Specific Rules

#2-Players are voting each night to elect a killer. Voting remains anonymous and the killer remains anonymous. Members of the mafia's party count for two instead of one. You have 48 hours to PM me your vote, otherwise it won't count. I will then PM the killer and they will have 48 hours to select a kill. Players may not vote for themselves.

The way I'm reading the rules is that, during the first 24 hours of the 48-hour Night, every player PMs the Mod with a vote for the player that will be entrusted with the nightkill. Therefore, "deciding" a night killer inthread is pointless.

@Mod: Am I understanding correctly?

However, it seems we are free to settle on the nightkill target (if any) inthread.

This is really bad logic. It seems that you're saying since we can't tell who did or didn't vote for the person agreed on, there's no point in agreeing on anyone. But if we don't, scum will get it. So it's in every town member's interest to vote for the person agreed on.

If we agree: chance of scum killer.
If we don't agree: definite scum killer.

So why are you against agreeing on a killer?

[Umbrage]

That's a fair point, actually. HC, why Umbrage?

Because he reacted to Exe's fake daykill in an extremely scummy way. He advocated killing Exe, despite the fact that if the daykill had gone through it would have made it more likely that Exe was town, and he chose the extremely odd phrasing of "Even if he's town, he's now used his power and is basically a confirmed VT, not someone we want alive." If Exe had a daykill and had hit scum, then Exe would be confirmed town. The way Umbrage tried to set up an Exe nightkill suggests that Umbrage knew how TS would flip.

In addition, Umbrage spent a lot of time pushing a case on charter for active lurking when no reasonable interpretation of "active lurking" would describe charter at all. When called out on how awful his argument was, he gave up and posted a picture of a monkey.

OK. Deep breaths. I can do this calmly. And... here we go.

1) Having a daykill ability does not make anyone more or less town. End of story. Not open to debate.

2) I already explained why it is GENERALLY a bad idea to leave VTs alive. I'm not feeling particularly nice today, find that argument yourself.

3) Yes, if he had hit scum, he would most likely be town. And if he hadn't hit scum?

4) There is no other way to describe what charter is doing. It's active lurking. He comes in, says something like "I don't care about whatever you guys are talking about, I just want Umbrage dead kthxbi", and vanishes again. That is active lurking. Charter is active lurking. If you want to actually form a proper argument as to why he is not active lurking, I'm all ears.

5) The post I was responding to was this:

1) When have I disappeared? I've posted every single day the game has been open. I'm most definitely not an active lurker. Now you're just looking for anything you can think of to accuse me of.

2) You're tunneling. You've decided I'm scum (for pretty much no reason I might add) and now you're shaping all of my actions to paint me as scum regardless of whether or not my actions are actually scummy. For example, this latest activity issue, which you're still pursuing, despite contradicting yourself (so clearly you don't believe either story makes me scummy) and despite being clearly wrong. Forgetting about someone has nothing to do with it.

Here charter basically admits to active lurking.

I've posted every single day the game has been open.

Which proves he can post content. But he doesn't. He's posts the same crap over and over. He adds nothing to the game. The definition of active lurking is: a) posting just enough to avoid getting replaced and b) not providing any content.

6) Instead of rehashing old arguments against me, why don't you take a look at other players? Because at this point you're as helpful as charter. All the two of you are doing is sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes, and shouting LALA UMBRAGE IS SCUM. This is not pro-town behaviour. I shouldn't have to tell you fuckers that it is not pro-town behaviour. If it wasn't for dumb shits like you we would be able to tell who's acting scummy. As it stands now, I have to try decide who's scum and who's stupid. Which isn't, suffice it to say, a healthy environment for the town.

[Umbrage]

Don't insult us. Period. It got you force replaced out of one game already, don't make it a habit.

Again, lies. I replaced out of that game voluntarily because the mod was an ass. MORE LIES FROM EXE YAY!!!

He spent the entire beginning of the game posting CONTENT while you made the ridiculous accusation of active-lurking the entire time.

Lying liars lie. My point that charter was active lurking began when he was active lurking. Look and see.

I wonder why does it feel like Vezok is celebrating his luckiness (with his possible scumbuddies)?

Oh, I'm sure the scum are having a blast! Free tunnel on Umbrage party! Town's too blind to do anything about it! It's basically a free mislynch!

If Am tries anything crazy, I'd be ok with Charter taking it. However, I would want him to do no-kill, so we can discuss what happened and get peoples reactions to it beforehand.

This is the worst thing I've read since my book club chose My Sister's Keeper. WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU WANT CHARTER TO TAKE THE KILL? ALL HE'S DONE ALL GAME IS SAY HE WANTS TO KILL ME! IS THIS THE KIND OF PERSON WHO STRIKES YOU AS LEVELHEADED? IS THIS THE KIND OF PERSON YOU WANT TO TRUST NOT TO FUCK THINGS UP?

AND WHY OH WHY DO YOU WANT A NO-KILL? IT'S BEEN SHOWN THAT IT IS WASTING A KILL AND BAD FOR TOWN! THERE AREN'T ENOUGH CAPITAL LETTERS IN THE WORLD TO COMMUNICATE TO YOU HOW BAD THIS QUOTE IS!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You know what? Kill me. Go on, kill the town's last clearheaded player. Just don't pretend it was somehow my fault.

[Umbrage]

I'm vanilla. GG scum.

SV is still my prime kill choice, with FF, Tragedy, and vezok tied for second. Exe and charter are just a little too sure I'm scum to be scum. That's my opinion, anyway.

However, I see the logic behind it

You do? Mind explaining it to me?

One more thing: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p2707762

Honestly though, I can't stay mad at you guys. You all strike me as really good players having an off game. All my rage comes from love.

[Umbrage]

One more thing: viewtopic.php?p=2707762#p2707762

Also, anyone here can read past that post and see what

really

happened in that game. So nice try.

Umbrage's complete 180 on attitude is pretty much out of nowhere, so I don't think we'll be seeing a town-flip. I'm pretty sure we've got scum. But if not, those last few reads are useful. Perhaps.

1) I'm sick of your insinuations. Have the balls to just say something for once. I honestly have no idea what you mean by

really

happened. I have nothing to hide, the game is there for all to see.

2) That's just the way I am. A passionate Italian. Hate and love are two sides of the same coin. Ciao.

[Umbrage]

I'm vanilla. GG scum.

Umbrage, could you claim the full name of your role? (I have a good reason for asking this)

Vanilla Townie

[Umbrage]

If you go ahead with umbrage, when she flips town

[Umbrage]

Unvote

If Umbrage can make a better argument that ain't just pointing fingers at random people without decent evidence, I'm going to smack him/her/it.

No. You don't have the right to tell me how to play when you do next to nothing for the entire day.

My choice of night executioner is Setael. Whoever it is should kill SV.

[Umbrage]

Town points for her if Umbrage flips town! - Basically what I'm trying to say is, is that I don't think Umbrage and Setael are both scum; I think it's one or the other.

So, if I'm town, how exactly will Setael look to you?

Also, regarding the VT claim thing: as the scum likely don't have access to a kill, I see no harm in outing a PR. Might want to wait until D2 to be sure though.

OK, I'm going to go off on a train of thought here... It is almost certain that I have scum on my wagon. Now, I doubt that scum is Exe or charter because they aren't bandwagoning me, they've been pushing me for a long time now, they couldn't have known that I'd be the most likely kill target. And they haven't slowed down either. So either they are very lucky, very brazen scum, or they're town. In the same way, the last few posts by FF make me suspect him more: he's not on my case as much, he was gung-ho before, but now that the wagon's going, he's distancing himself. On the other hand, we have Setael, who replaced in when the wagon on me was picking up momentum. It would be really convenient for him as scum to say I'm town as I'm being strung up. He's really sure I'm town, and I don't know why.

So...

@ Final Fires: Do you still think I'm the most likely to be scum?

@ Setael: What makes you so sure I'm town?

A 31 day page is WAY to long... please kill vezo

A 11 word post is WAY to short... please kill SO

[Umbrage]

scum probably already know by now; they'll have combed the topic for it probably

I am pretty sure the caught guy is scum and not PR.

Just sayin'...

[Umbrage]

OK, so Setael hasn't been in this game long enough for me to tell if he's buddying me or not. And he answered my question pretty well. Damn.

Honestly, I think vezokpiraka is most likely town. He seems WAY too proud of having a PR, like a kid with a new toy. Damn again. Who do I have left?

Either Amrun and Exe are both scum, or neither is scum. I don't see a single mafioso playing that recklessly without another one countering her. I could see Final Fires being scum independent of those two though.

I need to take a closer look at Ant. I don't like how he's been slipping under the radar.

So if charter is likely town, who's left? SV, Tragedy, HC, TS, and SO. I've had no reason to believe TS is scum this game, although I should ISO him just in case.

OK, let's look at what we have as a scum team then:

Shattered Viewpoint
Tragedy
Haschel Cedricson
StrungOver
Final Fires
Ant_to_the_max (?)

There's got to be less than five mafia. Any more would imbalance the game, five exactly would likely create a tie for the NK and break the game. Since scum don't have an NK, there's likely more of them than usual to compensate. I'm betting on four scum. Looking at this list, it becomes clear SO doesn't belong. Most of the other players have pushed his lynch. Tragedy was actually one of the first to draw attention to him, Final Fires and SV led the wagon. Interestingly enough though, HC avoided even commenting on the SO wagon, and Ant didn't want him dead either, preferring to kill Tragedy.

Therefore, if SO is scum, the team is:

List A:

StrungOver
Haschel Cedricson
Ant_to_the_max
Umbrage

Yes, I know I'm town. But you don't, do you? To you, if SO is scum, then this is the likely scum team. I know that this team is not possible, though. So either we have a team of three, or a totally different team:

List B:

Shattered Viewpoint
Tragedy
Final Fires
?

We seem to run out of players to fit into that last slot. Which means I'm wrong about one of my town reads.

So I say we kill one person from one list, if they flip town, kill someone from the other list, if they flip scum, kill another from the first list. Either way, from my point of view, there's still one scum unaccounted for, so I'll be trying to figure out who it is.

Sorry for rambling. Hope this all makes sense.

[Umbrage]

and If they both flip town?

Then the scum are likely Amrun/Exe/Final Fires/some random person.

Don't both your lists rely on the premise that SO is scum? We won't know which he is until the flip, so I'm not sure what we could do with this until SO flips.

No, one list is if he is town, one is if he is scum. If a scum from one of the lists is found, then the other list is less likely scum. It's not foolproof, but it's the best analysis I can give without a flip.

[Umbrage]

I doubt there are five scum. If we no-kill today, then the votes would be a tie, and I doubt the mod would want that. So I think there's got to be four scum max. Besides, having scum gain the NK after one mislynch seems awfully swingy to me.

Also: if we kill SV and he flips scum, I logically should be the one to have the NK, I've been pushing on him most of the game.

[Umbrage]

We should still choose someone we all think is town for the NK. If vezok really is a PR, the scum might decide to just kill him in trade for one of their own.

[Umbrage]

Shattered Viewpoint: 7 (Amrun, Seteal, Twistedspoon, Umbrage, SO, Tragedy, Ant_to_the_max)
Umbrage: 6 (FF, Exe, Charter, Vezok, Haschel, SV)

That's everyone then.

[Umbrage]

If SV flips scum Tragedy should die, and if SV flips scum StrungOver should die.

I see Tragedy suddenly voting SV as a bus. If I was killed, SV would be the NK anyway, so if they are a scum duo, it's best for her to distance him.

[Umbrage]

Odd how the wagons switched so suddenly in my favor. Just sayin.

Everyone should analyze that very carefully tomorrow after I'm dead and flip Town.

Even better, why don't you analyze that?

[Umbrage]

I tentatively agree with Exe on the no-kill if SV is scum. But until he comes up with better reasoning than "Lol, no", I still feel I'm the best night executioner if SV is scum, as then I'll be dripping with townishness. Amrun is townish, yes, but she still took some persuading to want to kill SV over vezok. I've been pushing SV most of this game, if he's scum, I'm town.

[Umbrage]

Since I'm pretty sure the three of us are town, it'd be completely reasonable as scum to push for lynches of 3 townies and 1 scumbuddy for the EXACT reason that you can semi-confirm yourself if the scumbuddy slips.

What the... that's not even a plan. You really think I'm distancing him? If that's the case, then why would I vote to kill him when vezok already had two votes on him?

Also, vezok was way more popular than SV. Now you're just making things up.

[Umbrage]

No, I attacked the foundation of your argument. That's not a strawman.

Look, if SV's scum, either you think I'm distancing SV, or I'm town. It's got to be one or the other, so what do you THINK?

[Umbrage]

I still hold that killing a lurker is anti-town. Attacking someone who can't defend themselves is scummy. I'm not going to repeat myself, I've explained all my scum reads in the past. Although I will say that I found SV scummy long before he started lurking.

This dependence on Amrun is not good for town, but if you're all too blind to see it, then I suppose I have no choice but to vote her.

I'm for killing SO if SV flips town because it fits with my dual scum list theory, I'll get a clearer picture of who's who. Besides, he's not exactly adding much to the game.

[Umbrage]

So NOW you think SO is scum, Umbrage?

I think he's the scummiest person we can agree on killing.

Why didn't SO get this same treatment, considering you've defended him as town beyond a shadow of a doubt (to the point where everyone who accused him got on your scum list) the entire game up until this point?

I've already said a million times that I was not defending SO. I see no point in responding to you until you read my posts.

[Umbrage]

Either SO is town or scum. I don't know which. But I do think he's of opposite alignment with SV. I think SV is scum. That's the extent of my reasoning as to why SO is town. Therefore, if SV flips town, my logic needs to be reversed.

[Umbrage]

I've covered all those before. Tragedy and SO are active lurking, they can clearly post when they want. SO flat out refuses to provide content, which is the main reason I feel his death does not pose a significant loss to the town. Charter's been off my scum list for a while, basically because I can't see scum tunneling on one player for the entire game. At least, not outside a newbie game.

And if you want to find examples of lining up lynches, I suggest you take a look at this: forhttp://mafiascum.net/um/viewtopic.php?p=2814667#p2814667

[Umbrage]

Hey, a pun!

[Umbrage]

You said yourself you were going to give attention to SO earlier on for lurking. Why did this never happen? And when someone else did give them that attention, why did it seem scummy, if you were going to do it yourself earlier?

Because I'm lazy? Sorry, I'm trying to keep up in this game, but there's been a lot of school shit going on. From my point of view, the initial questions on SO weren't scummy. The scumminess came from the amount of bandwagoners that suddenly appeared, and how FF, Exe, and Amrun, suddenly all agreed he was scum.

I see no link between SV and SO. Care to elaborate?

SV's first post when returning from his absence was to vote for SO to die. This was after Exe, FF, and Amrun had started attacking him. It's an obvious bandwagon, and one of a main signifier to me that something was up. When scum distance each other, it's usually with some venom, so when their partner flips scum, there's no way anyone could consider the other anything but town. SV was more neutral about it, he didn't care if SO died, but he didn't really think he was scum. I read them as opposite alignments.

[Umbrage]

@ Exe: Say we go through with your plan, but someone still dies. Amrun claims she was not elected killer. Would you want to kill Amrun?

[Umbrage]

@ Exe: Say we go through with your plan, but someone still dies. Amrun claims she was not elected killer. Would you want to kill Amrun?

Actually, I'd like everyone to answer this question.

[Umbrage]

Setael brings up a good point. Exe and Tragedy dodged the question.

@ Exe: You want a no-kill for a reason, but I can't follow your logic. You said that you wanted a no-kill so either scum will reveal themselves, or we won't lose a townie, but your hesitation to kill Amrun shows that scum could steal the kill from us and get away with it in your book, so what good does no-killing do? You say that narrowing the kill down to two choices gives scum the ability to influence the choice between two townies, but we run that risk in normal play. If that really was a concern for you, you would be looking at how today's kill was pushed between two candidates, myself and SV. Why haven't you called that out as scummy? Also, this implies that we the town are unable to tell when scum are trying to influence the wagon choices, which is basically saying that town can't scumhunt. Being able to tell when scum are trying to play the town is an integral part of the game. Hell, it's Mafia 101. You can't stop it from happening.

[Umbrage]

Exe, you've pulled more anti-town shit then the rest of us combined. Don't try to blow off my questions by shouting a buzzword. And if you look back, I think you'll find I supported your idea to no-kill, until I started questioning your motives for wanting one. So quit acting like a child and answer me properly next time.

And what about allowing people to claim? Which person do we make claim before we execute SV?

Here we go. That's all you needed to say, thanks.

[Umbrage]

Take your medication and lie down for a while.

[Umbrage]

Are we done with the posturing now?

[Umbrage]

Since Amrun's the only person who I'll consider town regardless of SV's flip, I agree.

[Umbrage]

We need to elect someone who will kill amrun. No way she's town.

That's my cue.

Amrun
Exe
Final Fires

I'm sure of it now.

Also, everyone should say who got our night vote. I voted Amrun because I figured she'd get the most town votes.

[Umbrage]

VOTE: Twistedspoon

If Amrun flips town, which I doubt, kill Setael. If she is scum, kill FF. Honestly, even if vezok was scum, I'd still want Amrun dead today. That premature ending of the day was the worse thing anyone's done yet. And that's counting Exe!

Notice how until now, Exe never really pushed Amrun. The two argued a lot, but never really attacked the other. If one is scum, the other is likely bussing.

[Umbrage]

@ Exe: The main reason I thought SV was scum was because he was sheeping YOU. You've been SAYING you're suspicious of Amrun, but you've been attacking me, SO, and anyone else who crosses you. You've disagreed with Amrun, but you don't point out scumtells on her.

@ Setael: TS is the person I trust most to do what the town says, after myself of course. But Exe will throw a hissy fit if I ask to be elected.

[Umbrage]

@ charter:



THE TOWN WILL DECIDE WHO DIES TODAY. IF FOR SOME REASON THE EXECUTIONER GOES APESHIT AND DOESN'T DO WHAT THE TOWN WANTS, WE KILL THEM LIKE WE ARE KILLING AMRUN. ONE FOR ONE EXCHANGES BENEFIT THE TOWN. IF TS IS SCUM, HE WILL NOT DISOBEY THE TOWN OR HE WILL END UP LIKE AMRUN. THEN SCUM IS FUCKED. SO TAKE A CHILL PILL PLEASE.

[Umbrage]

I agree we need a different person to do the killing at night. This person must:

a) be trusted to kill the person we agree on if Amrun flips scum.
b) be trusted to kill the person we agree on if Amrun flips town.
c) be trusted to kill Twistedspoon if he fucks up.

So we're going to have to agree on potential NKs first.

The only person who comes to mind if Amrun flips town is Setael, for being the strongest to push her lynch. If she is scum, I like Final Fires as the kill, as the two of them have an obvious connection. I would be willing to vote Exe for the NK if we agree on these people. It'll be a chance for him to try and show me he's not scum with Amrun and FF, and I trust he would be willing to kill Setael and TS.

[Umbrage]

I've said like 4 times that I voted for FF.

I laughed a little on the inside at Umbrage ignoring the fact that I pointed out his blatant misrep.

I laughed a lot on the outside at SO. Seriously, that guy is either scum or shouldn't be allowed on this website.

This whole plan that everyone is formulating is just as stupid as the one D1. I don't know why we are trying to walk our way through this shit again.

So we're all scum, and everything we do is wrong. OK, thanks for your valuable input Exe. Now let the rest of us scumhunt.

[Umbrage]

I was willing to kill Umbrage with 6 votes because everyone had voted and Umbrage had the most votes.

Not everyone asked to end the day, but lots of people did, and it seemed to me like a majority at the time. I will go quote it later. Busy now.

Then why not kill me when SV flipped town? I'd be the logical choice. You only cared about killing vezok, an unclaimed PR.

[Umbrage]

amrun, ff, and exe need to die.

Why?

[Umbrage]

Let's vote Exe for executioner today and tonight and kill Amrun today and Umbrage tonight.

Why?

[Umbrage]

SO could be scum, but I still read him as very poor town. Call it gut if you want. However this parroting of me is getting old. I'm fine with it if you want him dead, but he's not my first choice for a kill.

Am I the only one that thinks it seems like Tragedy has vanished?

[Umbrage]

That was before The Amrun Incident which tore apart the fabric of time and space and rendered everyone's previous scum and town reads useless.

[Umbrage]

If Amrun IS scum, then TS also gets scumpoints for being so eager to volunteer to be the Amrun-Executioner.

I assume you mean if she's town?

Haschel and charter both earn scum points for trying to derail the amrun wagon without giving any kind of reason why her move makes sense as town.

FF did the same thing in ISO #66.

Also, we don't

know

that Am is scum yet. Is there a pretty good chance of her being scum? Yes. Do we know? Nope. When you say stuff like that it makes it difficult for me to get a read on you. Yesterday you knew that SV was going to flip town, and now you know that Am is going to flip scum?

[Umbrage]

I think he did mean scum, with the point being that TS' willingness to execute is hoping to get town points when amrun flips scum.

Don't answer for other players please.

[Umbrage]

Even when I think I know the answer to a question, I ask it anyway. The best way to catch scum is to get them saying something bad. The best way to get people to say something bad is to ask the right question.

[Umbrage]

Actually, that post makes me think HC is right, TS could be her buddy. She's very "well I don't want him lynched but I'm not saying he's town but he's not one of my top suspects" which is rather odd.

[Umbrage]

town read forever?

Tragedy's a slight scum read of mine.

I can kind of see where Exe is coming from. We need to decide:

Who will die if Amrun is town?
Who will die if Amrun is scum?

I could care less who the executioner is. I think we've made it clear: if you fuck up, we will kill you. No excuses. I doubt scum will try and pull any more shit.

I still can't shake a gut read of town for SO. I would prefer a Tragedy kill, she's done even less than SO.

Everyone else should be looking into SV's wagon, I suppose, because they don't have this inside info about me.

Well I won't, I know the vote was between two townies. Scum had no more reason to attack SV than me. In fact, scum is most likely the people who tried to avoid making a choice between us, so they wouldn't be under suspicion. I should look at that... Anyway, I see no reason why TS would push for a revote as scum, it wouldn't make much of a difference. In fact, TS eliminated vezok as a potential kill, something scum wouldn't like to do.

Whoa. Whoa. I just got a massive jolt of clarity.

Why would ScuAmrun want to disrupt the plans for the NK? Because they were headed in a direction that was bad for scum. If Amrun is scum, she knew SV would flip town. As I recall, if SV was town, the plan was to kill SO. What if Amrun ended the day prematurely and killed vezok to save her scumbuddy from certain death?

I need to reread to see if it makes sense with last day's play, but an Amrun/SO team is looking pretty good right now...

[Umbrage]

Yes, just the day executioner.

And I remember arguing for SO to be killed if SV was town at some point...

[Umbrage]

We need to lynch TS before Amrun, I'm telling you.

Vote Exe

Need to catch up, but still. Kill TS first.

No.

This response contains more logic than that post.

@ EVERYONE:

The executioner does not matter. The executioner is a means to an end, and will either do the town's will or die. So stop all this bullshit about who it is. That is a detail that will work itself out when the time comes. What we need to decide is who will die at night. NOT who will do the killing, who will die if Amrun is scum, and who if she is town. Or even if we want to no-lynch.

DO NOT POST WITHOUT STATING YOUR PREFERRED NIGHT KILLS.

If Amrun is town: Setael.
If Amrun is scum: Final Fires.

Now your turn.

[Umbrage]

@ Final Fires:

The flavour makes the set-up obvious. Mafia are generally able to tell, since they know their own numbers, whether the set-up has an SK or second team. The fact that Tragedy was smart enough to figure out that witches are the enemy of pilgrims doesn't make me leap in the air with joy for her townness.

Also this:

We are. The witches wouldn't know this though, and would try to put a flavor twist to the traditional townie name, because

there's a flavor twist to the traditional mafia name.

Now, how would you know that? And don't tell me the twist is 'witches', our twist is 'pilgrims', but the role name is still 'vanilla townie'. Why wouldn't the mafia have PMs that say 'mafia goon'?

Finally, what ever happened to that thing where you had me claim my role name? ISO #50, in case anyone's forgotten. Doesn't that make me at least as town as Tragedy? But no... I'm still scummy to you.

If Amrun is town, kill Final Fires. If Amrun is scum, kill Final Fires. Just kill this obvious scum already.

[Umbrage]

First of all, now you're calling "townies" pilgrims.

You obviously do not know the town win condition. If you did, you would know that we're not looking for 'mafia goons', we're looking for witches.

And we're not called pilgrims. If you were town you would know that too.

Read the first fucking post in the game. It's obvious that the townies are the pilgrims and the witches are the mafia. The ROLE NAMES do not say 'VANILLA PILGRIM'. They say VANILLA TOWNIE. Therefore, it is easy to assume that the mafia PMs say MAFIA GOON or MAFIA GODFATHER, and not 'WITCH GOON' or anything like that.

Second of all, Tragedy didn't just say that there witches. She said that the town role PM mentioned witches. If she is scum, that's a bold statement to be making.

I'm about 99.9999999999999% sure that the mod would use the same format for both town and mafia PMs. It makes it easier for scum to fakeclaim. So it's safe to assume the mafia PMs mention 'pilgrims'. If I could figure that out, you can bet your ass the scum could figure out our PMs.

Claiming "Vanilla Townie" is not impressive, and certaintly doesn't confirm you as town. The reason I asked was because an inability to claim VT would confirm you as scum.

And yet Tragedy mentions WITCHES and suddenly you're all OOH SHE MUST BE TOWN? This is crap logic. You're saying whatever you want and pretending that it's backed up by this magical force.

You are trying to outsmart the mod, which is NEVER a good idea. This is fucking Mafia 101. If you REALLY were trying to find scum through knowledge of role PMs, you'd have AT LEAST READ THE FLAVOUR. Which you clearly HAVEN'T, or you would know that TOWNIES and PILGRIMS are THE SAME FUCKING THING. So you obviously don't give a shit about finding scum. Therefore you are just interested in finding some reason to clear Tragedy, therefore you are scum with Tragedy.

HOW TO WIN THE GAME:

Step 1: Kill Amrun.
Step 2: Kill Final Fires.
Step 3: Kill Tragedy.

IF GAME IS NOT WON BY THAT POINT:

Step 4: Kill Exe.

BINGO!!!!!!!

[Umbrage]

Puritans, pilgrims, same fucking thing.

@Umbrage: Just to wonder... Why would scum actually have Fake Role PMs if there's just plain old witches and pilgrims/townspeople/Townies/WHATEVER?
I don't see a good reason why would they really need a fucking fake Role PM when there's just villagers and witches without power roles.

Try again. I never ever ever ever ever ever said scum have fake PMs. Read before bandwagoning next time.

I think Umbrage should be the NK. I think she's bussing Amrun.

And what the fuck have you been doing this whole day? At least I've been trying to find other scum, you've never so much as glanced at anyone else. You seem more interested in setting up my lynch after Amrun's.

I think night killer should be Ant and he should NK Umbrage.

ANT????? HAVE YOU FUCKING LOST YOUR MIND???????

We need someone pro-town and dependable to carry out the NK. In what possible way do you feel Ant fits the bill?

[Umbrage]

Also, you've had a sudden change of heart regarding 'Townie pilgrims' vs 'Vanilla Townie':

Also, regarding the VT claim thing: as the scum likely don't have access to a kill, I see no harm in outing a PR. Might want to wait until D2 to be sure though.

Earlier you thought it was a scum tell, and told me to go ahead and out them.

WHAT THE HELL THIS DOESN'T MAKE ANY SENSE THE QUOTE HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ROLE NAMES WHAT THE FUCK

[Umbrage]

However, it's worth noting that this post shows no indiction that Umbrage thinks the person I'm going to out is scum; he just mentions PR.

Because you were all OOH I MIGHT HAVE FOUND SCUM BUT IT MIGHT OUT A PR PLZ DON'T LET ME MAKE A MOVE UNTIL I CAN BE SURE NO SUSPICION WILL COME MY WAY!!!! You ASKED us for our opinions, I GAVE mine to you.

You would understand my logic if you received a town role.

AND YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND MY LOGIC IF YOU STARTED THINKING FOR A CHANGE.

Above statement is total bullshit. FF is trying to bamboozle you. Don't fall for it, please.

Tragedy didn't just mention witches. She mentioned witches in the role PM. Witches would not know what was in the town role PM.

JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY IT DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE!!!!!!!

he obvious logical fallacies in this are huge. Let's say I was scum (which I'm not). Why would I out of nowhere try to clear Tragedy when there's almost no suspicion on her at this point? Umbrage is just grasping at straws.

FF: Hey, does anyone find Tragedy scummy?

Umbrage and a few other guys: Yeah, we do!

FF: Well, you're wrong because of this shitty logic that I just made up!

THE END

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, quote one post you've made that's been good scumhunting.

I take your resort to ad hominem as a sign that you can't properly defend yourself.

execute amrun
night kill umbrage

WHY? POST A FUCKING ORIGINAL THOUGHT.

[Umbrage]

Since Exe is already making the night kill (or only needs one or two more votes), I think FF could be trusted to kill Umbrage tonight. Or SO, or charter even. Or me. I'd be fine with any of these.

Why SO?

execute amrun
night kill umbrage

What's with the sudden change of heart?

Umbrage, quote one post you've made that's been good scumhunting.

I take your resort to ad hominem as a sign that you can't properly defend yourself.

I could say the same thing about your answer. In fact, almost your entire defense was "attack the person" (ad hominem) over anything else:

AND YOU WOULD UNDERSTAND MY LOGIC IF YOU STARTED THINKING FOR A CHANGE.

Above statement is total bullshit. FF is trying to bamboozle you. Don't fall for it, please.

JUST BECAUSE YOU SAY IT DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUE!!!!!!!

FF: Hey, does anyone find Tragedy scummy?

Umbrage and a few other guys: Yeah, we do!

FF: Well, you're wrong because of this shitty logic that I just made up!

THE END

Also, I don't see how asking you to point out one time you've scumhunted as ad hominem at all.

MORE BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FF CAN'T RESPOND TO MY ARGUMENTS SO HE'S PLAYING THE OOH UMBRAGE LIKES TO POST IN CAPS LETS LYNCH HIM CARD!!!!!!!!!!!! AND YOU ARE FALLING FOR IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ISN'T THAT GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Umbrage]

OK. I was all set to just fuck this game and let you sheep kill me. But my damn conscience won't let me do it. I really want to win this. So here I am, trying to get you all to see reason.

Final Fires has not responded to my latest arguments in the least. Everything coming from him now is ad hominem, he thinks that by critiquing my play he can shift attention off of his own. His reasoning of why Tragedy is town is weak. Trust me, scum know they are the witches, and they know we are the puritans. What's more, he ignores the fact that since I claimed the right role name, I am town by his own logic, since I know what the town PM is like. I knew the role name, Tragedy knew the win con. There is no difference. Either we are both confirmed town, or neither of us are confirmed anything. And yet, Final Fires tries to have his cake and eat it too. He insists Tragedy is town, and I am scum. The logic applies to her, but it doesn't to me.

Final Fires, Exe, and now Setael have taken over this game. Nobody says poop without their consent. This allows players like charter, Ant, Cedricson, and Tragedy to get away with the bare minimum scum hunting. This is not a healthy environment. I have not seen a single case on one of the latter players that hasn't lost momentum and died, mainly because one of the big players says they are town, and nobody questions them. Take the current example, I was under practically no suspicion until I started to attack Final Fires. When Final Fires started attacking me in return, (OMGUS?) everyone jumped on the wagon. Just like how nobody dared question that Amrun was the kill for today. I think she should be the kill, but it is odd how nobody was defending her, and nobody was suggesting an alternative to killing her. Why? Because nobody wanted to go up against Setael. I originally mistook this sheeping for scumplay, which resulted in SV's death. I'm wiser now. This is a symptom of the town.

Nobody is objective in this game. The mad rush on SO yesterday caused a panic in me. I went against the herd to try and slow it down, I didn't care about SO, I was worried about what was happening to everyone else. There always has to be someone playing devil's advocate. Someone against the lynch. Someone wondering if what we are doing is the best thing for the town. If we don't do that, mistakes are made. And we are forced to follow the leaders, leaders who may be scum.

I have put together a solid case on Final Fires. He's ignoring it now, hoping my quick death will be the end of his troubles. You are listening to him for no other reason than he is the town leader. He makes long posts and sounds smart. But his logic is flawed. I've pointed them out.

Honestly, at this point, who would I be partnered with as scum? I've attacked or been attacked by everyone here. Even my little parrot SO has turned against me, for no other reason than it's the way the wagon is headed, a wagon that has the blessing of Setael and Final Fires.

I don't care if you hate me, or my playstyle. But I do care if you lynch me because of it. Being condescending does not make me scum. Being brash does not mean I don't make good arguments. Sometimes I wonder if anyone bothers reading my posts. I suppose I could've been quieter, toed the line and kept any flaws with our leaders' play to myself. But that's not what you do to win. Winning is all that matters. Each post I made was what I thought the town needed. If someone was being unreasonable, I tried to slap them straight. If the town was chaotic, I tried to instill some order. These are not the actions of mafia. I ask you to read my posts, only my posts, and determine whether they are coming from scum or mafia. Don't listen to what Final Fires and Setael tell you. Their information is tainted. The only person you can trust is yourself. Make your own decisions.

[Umbrage]

I'm in class now. I have been working on a response to FF on my home computer, and will send it later.

[Umbrage]

What points would you still like me to address? Most of the points you made against me in this post I've already addressed.

I made a post outlining how your logic regarding PMs was flawed. Instead of arguing the merits of the case, you started asking me for... posts where I was scumhunting? And flat-out disregarding my case. I'm not trying to find posts where you feel I was scumhunting when you can just yell 'speculation' at anything.

It's not difficult to know that a vanilla townie is called. It is difficult to know what the town win condition is, unless you are in fact town. Especially in this game, because the win condition is different than a typical town win condition.

I see. But what if, just like how the townie PM mentions witches, the mafia PM mentions puritans? Odds are that it does, mods like to keep the same format for both scum and town PMs. It's easy to assume the mafia were able to figure out that the town PM mentions witches.

Earlier you suggested that the witches have names with no flavor - that they're just called 'mafia'. If this is the case, then they would have even less of a problem coming up with a good fakeclaim. They could not however, produce a win condition. That's the difference between you and Tragedy.

It makes sense that the mafia wincon is in the same format as the town's. So the mafia wincon would say something about puritans. If I could figure that out, it's a certainty the mafia know about it.

This is just flat out not true. Everything people say is open to being asked questions. Just because I do ask people a lot of questions, and make cases against people does not mean that "I've taken over this game".

Whether or not you've done it intentionally, your voice carries a lot of weight. Just look at my wagon for evidence. But instead of checking who's scummy on the wagon, you are tunneling me, and not looking at the impact you are having.

I can't help but notice that he left SO out of here.

I did mention SO in that post. Either you missed it, which means you haven't read carefully, or you are misrepresenting me. Honestly, what am I supposed to think at this point?

And yesterday I suggested that some of the lurkers were scummy, but Umbrage called me scum for it. In fact, Umbrage tried to avoid starting conversation on lurkers at all Day One. Now that lurkers are not the center of the discussion today, and he's calling me scum for it. Double standard?

Encouraging activity is different than attacking lurkers. Maybe if vezok hadn't had the entire town against him, he could've claimed, could've done some scumhunting. I believe most of the lurkers are town. But they aren't contributing. The solution is not to say they are scum.

As far as I remember, there has not been a significant case made on any of the players that he mentioned. That's probably the first big reason that they lost momentum. And if there was, I had no part in it losing momentum.

So you see my point. Whether or not this 'leader' system is your fault, it's causing problems. One of the main reasons I think you are scum with Exe is because although you two disagree a lot, you don't attack each other, or call each other scummy.

The problem was not that you defended SO. It was how you defended SO. Townies don't defend one another the way you defended him.

I really can't respond to this. I don't know how you think townies are supposed to defend each other. I've given my reasoning for my defence of SO, and I still believe it was the right thing to do.

If you thought scum were sheeping SV, why did you still push a lynch against him before it came down to you vs him for yesterdays lynch?

I meant that SV was sheeping Exe and other players.

And according to the last post you made on SO, you still have a town read on him, suggesting you do care about SO more than you claim.

I have a gut read of town on him. I know he's done scummy things, and I can understand the case against him, but every time I ask myself whether he is town or scum, I have to answer town. I mean to say that I don't care whether he lives or dies. My gut could be wrong, and he's no big loss to the town.

Just because you say my logic is flawed doesn't make it so. If you're referring to post #127 in your ISO, I've already talked about that. There's no way I can address what is essentially you saying "I think your logic is wrong!" if you don't point out what the flaws in my logic are.

More deflection. I have explained the flaws in your role PM logic.

If I were to assume you were scum for certain, this would be a good place for people to start bussing. SO's sudden turning on you doesn't make you look any more town.

So if anything this is a reason to kill SO. Your main point on me is how I defended SO. But these are only points against me if SO is scum. So why not lynch SO?

I'm going to ask you one more time to quote a place where you've had good, sound scum hunting. Please don't dodge this question again.

No. I will not do so. My ISO is there for everyone to look at. If there's something you think has not been good scum hunting, feel free to point it out. I am not digging out old posts for you to say "sorry, no".

STUFF

I understand that I cannot be fully objective, but can you name a player who has been more objective?

LONG STORY SHORT, THAT ENTIRE POST IS JUST NOISE. I'm not letting your lies infect this town any longer Umbrage.

Everything coming from you now is 'just noise'. Are you done posing for the cameras now, Mr. Pro-Town Superhero?

[Umbrage]

A scum-faced one, obviously.
Or a politician, who knows.

The culprit would be

Umbrage

, by the way...

[Umbrage]

I'm sticking with my earlier preferences.

Exe, kill Amrun. If Amrun is scum, we vote Twistedspoon to kill Final Fires. If Amrun is town, we vote Exe to kill Setael. If Exe goes rogue, vote me to kill Amrun, then kill Exe the next day.

[Umbrage]

Alright then, that changes to:

Exe, kill Amrun. If Amrun is scum, we vote Ant to kill Final Fires. If Amrun is town, we vote Ant to kill Setael. If Exe goes rogue, vote Ant to kill Amrun, then kill Exe the next day.

[Umbrage]

Exe, kill Amrun. If Amrun is scum, we vote Ant to kill

Final Fires

Umbrage. If Amrun is town, we vote Ant to kill

Setael

Umbrage. If Exe goes rogue, vote Ant to kill Amrun, then kill Exe the next day.

This is the more protown plan.

I'd like your name and flavor Ant, but I think you're town. The role makes sense to me as a way to mitigate scum's night votes. Does your role counter scum's day votes at all or just night? Can you not vote yourself during the day either, or just not at night?

WHY?

Honestly, does nobody know how to play town nowadays?

[Umbrage]

It includes you, Umbrage.

Anyways..

If Amrun = Town -> SO must Die.
If Amrun = Scum -> Uhh.

My first thought: what does this mean?
My second thought: does it really matter?

[Umbrage]

All of Umbrage's "scum hunting" has consisted solely of lining up lynches and pointless speculation

Well fine, that's your opinion. I'm not about to try and argue such a ridiculous generalization. If you want to delve into specifics, I'm all ears. Asking me to prove I've been scumhunting is a useless exercise.

You neglected to put SO as a player that was "getting away with the bare minimum scum hunting", but called out four others.

So? I wanted to draw attention to SO's sudden change of opinion, so I made a separate sentence to deal with him specifically. I wasn't ignoring him.

If anyone's to be put at fault for the leader system, it would be the game setup. We're required to elect one person each day and night; that naturally lends itself to people stepping up into a leader role.

Yes, but it's still anti-town.

------------------------------------------------------------

Amrun is the kill today. We are not going to send the message that you can fuck the town over and get away with it. If the executioner goes awry, the executioner must die.

[Umbrage]

Vote to kill: Amrun

There is NO WAY we can allow Amrun-scum to walk away after this. She is the kill. If we don't kill her, what's to stop Exe from pulling the same shit? We need to clamp down on this madness.

Also, I still believe that not killing at night is a waste. However, Exe makes a good point, unless we can logically discuss who should die and why, I agree with a no-kill for tonight.

[Umbrage]

Can someone point me to this big incredible case on SO? I'd really like to hear what you have on him that's better than the amrun case, but everyone's ignoring my request.

I second this.

Dude...my last post...look at it. Why the hell did you vote for her at night then?

Because I didn't see anyone else getting enough votes from the town. The choice was between scum likely getting the NK and scum definitely getting the NK.

[Umbrage]

Post 1136 is all about ME! So why do you prefer to kill SO over me?

[Umbrage]

nonetheless, I'm sure that I read a compelling case on SO somewhere.

You don't even know WHY he is fucking scummy!!!

YOU SEE THIS? THIS IS WHY IT IS A BAD IDEA TO HAVE TOWN LEADERS. BECAUSE THE OTHER PLAYERS CAN'T FUCKING KEEP UP AND THEY JUST AGREE WITH THE PERSON WHO SHOUTS THE LOUDEST. AND THEN THE LEADERS GO OH WELL THEY AGREE WITH ME SO IT'S NOT MY FAULT!!!!! WE TRUSTED AMRUN AND LOOK WHERE IT GOT US. NOW YOU ARE THROWING YOUR BLIND SUPPORT TOWARD FINAL FIRES AND EXE! THIS! IS! SUCH! BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! FINAL FIRES SAYS VOTE STRUNGOVER AND YOU ALL TURN INTO LITTLE FUCKING SHEEP! NEVER MIND LOGIC!!!!!!! NEVER MIND REASONING!!!!!!!!!!!!! JUST DO WHATEVER FINAL FIRES SAYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Umbrage]

YOU. ARE. DOING. IT. WRONG.

YOU DO NOT CHALLENGE PEOPLE TO PROVE THEY HAVE BEEN PRO-TOWN, OR BEEN SCUMHUNTING PROPERLY. YOU POINT OUT THINGS THAT THEY HAVE DONE THAT ARE SCUMMY, AND CHALLENGE THEM TO DEFEND AGAINST THOSE THINGS.

BLANKET STATEMENTS LIKE 'HE HASN'T DONE ONE PRO-TOWN THING' CANNOT BE ANSWERED. YOU CAN ALWAYS SAY 'NO THAT DOESN'T COUNT'. STRUNGOVER SHOULD NOT HAVE TO PROVE HE IS TOWN, YOU HAVE TO FUCKING PROVE HE IS SCUM.

Once all of the votes have been placed I'll reevaluate my vote and decide if I still want to be with SO.

AKA I WANT TO WAIT AND SEE IF THE TOWN BUYS MY SHIT WAGON BEFORE I COMMIT TO IT.

[Umbrage]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p2805920

[Umbrage]

SEE? THIS IS WHY THE WHOLE 'POINT OUT WHERE SO WAS TOWN' THING IS STUPID. YOU CAN JUST SAY 'THAT'S NOT PRO-TOWN' TO ANYTHING THAT'S THROWN TO YOU WITHOUT HAVING TO MAKE AN ACTUAL CASE.

[QUOTE="Final Fires"]If you want I can go through it point by point[quote]

YES, THAT WOULD BE GOOD. EXPLANATIONS ARE GOOD. REASONING IS GOOD. BLANKET STATEMENTS ARE BAD.

[Umbrage]

If anything the scum are the ones that are WILLING to kill Amrun, but would PREFER to kill SO. Like Final Fires...

[Umbrage]

You wanted him dead from the get go...so I can't see why you would be mad about Amrun killing him. How does that make Amrun scum in your eyes?

What? You seriously don't see any problem with the way Amrun killed Vezok?

Umbrage's vote for Amrun really bothers me too though. His answer to my question is kinda meh...Amrun said he was voting for Final Fires that night, and we talked about him being the back up for the night executioner, so I thought it would be clear for every townie to vote for Final Fires to no kill if they didn't want Amrun to kill Vezo (which obviously no one did).

We also discussed voting Exe. Besides, I wanted Vezok dead. I figured a lot of other people did as well, so those people would vote Amrun.

[Umbrage]

Have you read any of my posts this game? I'm guessing not.

They're all the same. You realize the only reason you're off my scum list is because I don't think scum would play this badly?

[Umbrage]

WHY THE HELL ARE WE NOT KILLING AMRUN?

I DON'T CARE IF YOU THINK SHE IS SCUM OR TOWN, SHE IS THE KILL TODAY.

SHE BETRAYED THE TOWN. SHE KILLED THE DOC.

FINAL FIRES I HOPE YOU'RE FUCKING HAPPY. DON'T GIVE THIS OH I CAN'T HELP IT IF I'M THE LEADER BULLSHIT. IT IS ALMOST GUARANTEED THAT THERE IS SCUM ON THE SO WAGON. YOU ARE NOT LOOKING FOR SCUM ON THAT WAGON. TS IS TOTALLY BRAINWASHED NOW. YOU DO NOT FUCKING CARE. YOU ARE LEADING THE TOWN INTO DISASTER.

LISTEN EVERYONE: IF SO FLIPS TOWN, YOU ARE GOING TO VOTE ME FOR THE NIGHTKILL. I WILL KILL AMRUN. TOMORROW YOU WILL VOTE ME EXECUTIONER. I WILL KILL FINAL FIRES. THIS IS THE PATH TO TAKE IF YOU WANT TO WIN THE GAME. IT IS THAT SIMPLE. I'VE BEEN TRYING TO HAMMER REASON INTO YOUR SKULLS THIS ENTIRE DAY. WHEN IT TURNS OUT FINAL FIRES IS FULL OF IT, YOU WILL VOTE ME. THIS IS NOT NEGOTIABLE. THIS IS NOT A I HATE UMBRAGE SO I WON'T VOTE HIM DEAL. THIS IS A DO THIS IF YOU ARE TOWN DEAL.

[Umbrage]

I think I've decided what's gonna happen.

NO. THE TOWN DECIDES WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. DO. NOT. FUCKING. PULL. ANY. FUCKING. SHIT. TODAY. OR. WE. WILL. FUCKING. KILL. YOU.

[Umbrage]

I think I've decided what's gonna happen.

NO. THE TOWN DECIDES WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. DO. NOT. FUCKING. PULL. ANY. FUCKING. SHIT. TODAY. OR. WE. WILL. FUCKING. KILL. YOU.

Says the one who wants the town to bow down to his newest ridiculous demands.

NO. SAYS THE LAST RATIONAL TOWN MEMBER LEFT IN THIS GAME.

MY DEMANDS ARE SIMPLE. IF SO IS TOWN, YOU WILL TRUST ME TO KILL BOTH THE PERSON WE SHOULD'VE KILLED, AND THE PERSON WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR KILLING THE WRONG PERSON. AT THIS POINT, I AM THE ONLY PERSON YOU ALL CAN TRUST TO DO THIS WHO WON'T FUCK IT UP. I DON'T CARE IF YOU HATE ME. I AM THE ONLY PERSON WHO DARES TO GO AGAINST FINAL FIRES OTHER THAN SETAEL AND HE'S ALMOST AS BAD AS FINAL FIRES. THAT AUTOMATICALLY MAKES ME THE MOST OBJECTIVE, RATIONAL, CLEAR-HEADED, SANE, PRO-TOWN PLAYER IN THIS GAME.

IF SO IS SCUM YOU CAN ALL GO LOL UMBRAGE SUCKS, I DON'T CARE. BUT IF HE IS TOWN THEN YOU ALL FUCKING OWE ME.

[Umbrage]

I VOTED AMRUN BECAUSE I DID NOT EXPECT THE REST OF THE TOWN TO VOTE ANYONE ELSE. I HAD A CHOICE. VOTE AMRUN AND HAVE LIKELY SCUM GET THE NK OR VOTE SOMEONE ELSE AND HAVE DEFINITE SCUM GET THE NK.

ANYWAY IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THAT THE SCUM ARE LYING ABOUT VOTING FOR AMRUN. THAT MEANS I AM NOT SCUM. TWO PLUS TWO EQUALS FOUR.

[Umbrage]

IT MIGHT NOT CLEAR ME BUT YOU SURE AS HELL CAN'T SAY IT MAKES ME SCUM.

[Umbrage]

NO. YOU LOT LOST THE PRIVILEGE OF ME BEING CIVIL. I TRIED POSTING NORMALLY. NOW YOU GET THE CAPS.

Amrun (1): Umbrage,
Final Fires (4): Setael, Amrun, Ant_to_the_max, Twistedspoon
Haschel (2): charter, Tragedy
Charter (1): Haschel

...Then how did it come to Amrun like this?

This chart does not make any logical sense.

THE ONLY CONCLUSION FROM THIS IS THAT PEOPLE ARE LYING ABOUT VOTING FOR AMRUN. THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO WOULD LIE ARE SCUM. I DID NOT LIE. ERGO I AM NOT SCUM.

STRUNGOVER IS LURKING, SHEEPING SCUM. I DON'T DENY THAT. BUT REMEMBER THE LAST TIME WE TRIED KILLING LURKING, SHEEPING SCUM? WE KILLED A TOWNIE AND A COP. I ADMIT I SCREWED UP WITH SV AND VEZOK, BUT YOU GUYS MAKING THE EXACT SAME MISTAKE ISN'T GOING TO GET US ANYWHERE.

[Umbrage]

I revoke your caps locks privileges.

That ought to be an ability.

Scum probably lying about votes doesn't clear you. Get over it, sorry.

And I NEVER lied, ever. Don't say I lied when I didn't.

I killed the cop, but if you'll remember, HE WAS ALSO YOUR TOP SCUM READ.

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS?

WHERE DID I SAY YOU LIED?

WHERE DID I BLAME YOU AND ONLY YOU FOR KILLING VEZOK?

I JUST FUCKING ADMITTED GUILT FOR HAVING SOMETHING TO DO WITH VEZOK'S DEATH.

THE FACT THAT YOUR ASS GOT SAVED BY STUPID TOWN DOES NOT MEAN YOU CAN GET AWAY WITHOUT READING PROPERLY.

[Umbrage]

WHY THE HELL ARE WE NOT KILLING AMRUN?

I DON'T CARE IF YOU THINK SHE IS SCUM OR TOWN, SHE IS THE KILL TODAY.

SHE BETRAYED THE TOWN. SHE KILLED THE DOC.

I did not betray town. I did exactly what I professed I would do.

By your own logic, you betrayed the town in the same way that I did, so you should be killed also.

SAYING I THINK SV IS SCUMMY IS DIFFERENT THAN ENDING THE DAY WITH NO CLEAR COURSE OF ACTION TO TAKE OTHER THAN TO DO WHAT YOU WANT. TRYING TO COMPARE THE TWO IS STUPID. WHAT YOU DID WAS THE WORST THING ANYONE'S DONE IN THE GAME. YOU ARE THE MOST ANTI-TOWN PLAYER IN THIS GAME. PERIOD. NO DISCUSSION. WHY THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO STILL WANT YOU ALIVE IS BEYOND ME.

[Umbrage]

STRUNGOVER, WHY DO YOU WANT FF OR AMRUN DEAD? SAY WHY. THAT'S ALL YOU NEED TO DO TO BECOME A USEFUL TOWNIE INSTEAD OF THE WASTE OF A SLOT YOU CURRENTLY ARE.

[Umbrage]

Can someone tell me what post 1253 says? I'm not going to read it.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY YOU ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED WITH THE NK, AND WHY I THINK YOU ARE SCUM.

@ FINAL FIRES: I'VE DECIDED THAT MY LOGIC APPLIES TO ME, BUT NOT TO YOU FOR SOME REASON. SOUND FAMILIAR?

[Umbrage]

Nope. You can lynch me before I read another post that is in full caps.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cp0I9qLE0VA

[Umbrage]

YOU'RE DOING THAT JUST TO PISS ME OFF, AREN'T YOU? FINE. GIVE THE NIGHTKILL TO SCUM. HONESTLY, IT DOESN'T MATTER BECAUSE AT THIS POINT I DON'T TRUST ANY OF YOU NOT TO FUCK IT ALL UP. SCUM WILL LIKELY BE MORE CAUTIOUS, AND DO WHAT THE TOWN WANTS. SO YEAH, GIVING THE NIGHTKILL TO SCUM MIGHT BE THE BEST PLAY AT THIS POINT.

IF WE END UP LOSING THIS GAME TO AMRUN-SCUM I AM CREATING A PETITION TO RESTRICT EVERYONE BUT SETAEL TO NEWBIE GAMES FOR THE NEXT FIVE YEARS.

OH AND SPEAKING OF SETAEL:

@ Setael: What makes you so sure I'm town?

I had the same reaction to exe's gambit as Umbrage did. I totally bought it and was pissed exe hadn't given TS a chance to claim.

To vote umbrage for calling for exe's death after the fake day vig, you are assuming that exe is definitely town and that scum umbrage, knowing exe's alignment, tried to use his day kill as a way to get him lynched. It's just crap logic. First, in assuming exe is definitely town which if you're a townie you don't know that for sure and second, to think that scum would really think it a good move to call for the death of a protown vig (I can't see scum ever thinking this is a good idea, especially when that vig is going to flip town, guaranteeing major suspicion from the town. Scum are more careful than that.) It looks a LOT more like a townie who, not knowing TS's alignment, was pissed about such a stupid, senseless day kill.

I also am offended that Umbrage is saying she's the ONLY one scum hunting and the only one around who isn't an idiot. Everyone is perfectly justified in being annoyed by being lumped into that generalization. However, that doesn't make her scum. Some of you are probably scum taking advantage of her antagonistic playstyle, but others of you are town and you need to look beyond how obnoxious she's being and think. Would scum really make the post she made after the mock day kill?... My answer ... is hells no.

I feel very good about this execution. Townies don't defend other townies like Umbrage defended SO. The way Umbrage reacted to exe's fake daykill has very little to do with my vote against him.

Sure they do, all the time. Especially when your top scum reads jump on the wagon as opportunistically as SV and vezok did. She may have gone overboard (especially with the getting personal) but she never looked scummy to me.

You know who DOESN'T ever defend that blatantly? Scum buddies, especially this early in the game. If umbrage and SO are both scum, I'll eat my shorts.

I don't KNOW her alignment, but I have a lot of reasons to think she's town. The latest of which is her "catch" which she wouldn't have done if she were about to flip scum (since then it's no longer a catch since how could I KNOW she's town if she's actually scum....If she's scum it'd make a lot more sense for her to wait and see if my post derailed her wagon, rather than undermining me and almost certainly negatively affecting my post's effect. I can see your point though that I shouldn't be so certain she's town when I really don't know. Suspect me for it if you want, I'm just that confident. I'll sure have pie on my face if I'm wrong, but again I have a lot of really solid reasons to think she's town so I'm good with my read.

Looking back, it's not enough to gamble with me being the night kill if you flip scum - that wasn't a good idea. I just think I'm right. My hat will be off to you if you're scum, because all the above makes you really read town.

I have become progressively less sure of my umbrage read. I still prefer an SV execution, but Umbrag is closer to neutral on my scum scale.

SO WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN THESE POSTS?

I'LL TELL YOU.

WE AGREED TO KILL SV. SETAEL HAD PUSHED FOR THE VOTE BETWEEN MYSELF AND SV. SETAEL KNEW SV WOULD FLIP TOWN SO HE HAD TO DISTANCE HIMSELF FROM ME, WHO WAS THE LEADER OF THE SV BANDWAGON, IN ORDER TO KEEP HIS NOSE NICE AND CLEAN.

THE SECOND QUOTE IS TWO POSTS AWAY FROM WHEN AMRUN ENDED THE DAY. LOOKS LIKE SETAEL WROTE THAT JUST IN TIME. COINCIDENCE?

SETAEL SAID WE COULD KILL HIM IF AMRUN FLIPPED TOWN. AT THAT POINT IT LOOKED LIKE AMRUN'S DEATH WAS CERTAIN. I HAVE NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER EVER HEARD A TOWNIE SAY THAT HE COULD BE LYNCHED IF HIS READS WERE WRONG. ONLY A COP COULD BE THAT SURE OF THEMSELVES, AND OUR COP IS DEAD.

HE IS SURE AMRUN WILL FLIP SCUM BECAUSE HE IS HER PARTNER. THEY WERE GETTING READY TO SET ME UP FOR TODAY'S LYNCH, BUT AMRUN FUCKED UP AND SETAEL HAD TO BUS HER. LUCKILY FINAL FIRES CAME IN WITH HIS WAGON ON SO AND GOT AMRUN OFF THE HOOK.

NOW SETAEL IS SAYING TO KILL EITHER ME OR AMRUN. HE DOESN'T WANT TO KILL SO, BECAUSE KILLING SO WILL MEAN I GAIN TOWNCRED, AND HE CAN'T TAKE THAT CHANCE.

I AM ONLY GOING TO SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME:

IF YOU KILL SO, AND HE FLIPS TOWN, YOU WILL ALL VOTE ME AS NIGHT EXECUTIONER. NO BUTS. NO I DON'T LIKE UMBRAGES. NO NOBODY TELLS ME WHAT TO DOS. SWALLOW YOUR PRIDE, AND VOTE ME. PLAY TO YOUR WIN CONDITION. WHINING CAN COME LATER.

THIS MESSAGE HAS BEEN BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE MOST OBJECTIVE, UNBIASED, PRO-TOWN MEMBER IN THE GAME. THANK YOU.

[Umbrage]

"SETAEL KNEW SV WOULD FLIP TOWN"

A suspicious fact is suspicious.

I'm still fine enough for me being NK Executioner, but most people would obviously disagree.

I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO CLUE WHAT THIS POST MEANS.

[Umbrage]

/ignore Umbrage.

YOU HAD BETTER BE SCUM BECAUSE IF YOU ARE TOWN YOU WILL NEVER HEAR THE END OF THIS.

[Umbrage]

/ignore Umbrage

THIS IS THE MOST USEFUL POST YOU'VE MADE ALL GAME.

[Umbrage]

@ FINAL FIRES: I'VE DECIDED THAT MY LOGIC APPLIES TO ME, BUT NOT TO YOU FOR SOME REASON. SOUND FAMILIAR?

Yes:

-When you decided that we couldn't lynch SO Day 1 because he was an "easy target", but proceeded to play a part in SV and Vez getting killed.
-When you used the newbie card as a case for SO's innocence, but not other newbies on this thread.
-And now you think you're town because you admitted to voting for Am, but I'm not.

And I've already explained the difference between claiming vanilla townie, and knowing the town win condition.

NO YOU DID NOT EXPLAIN. I POINTED OUT HOW YOU CONTRADICTED YOURSELF AND YOU WENT LOL NO, THEN TRIED TO DISTRACT ME BY ASKING ME TO DIG UP POSTS WHERE I WAS SCUMHUNTING.

AND FOR THE ABOVE EXAMPLES, I'VE ALREADY PROVIDED MY REASONING FOR DOING WHAT I DID. DISPUTE THE REASONING, AND MAYBE YOU'LL GET A LONGER RESPONSE.

Only thing I could understand from Umbrage:

HE IS SURE AMRUN WILL FLIP SCUM BECAUSE SCUM BE MORE CAUTIOUS, AND DO WHAT THE TOWN WANTS

TRY READING NEXT TIME. READING IS GOOD. READING MAKES YOU A VERY USEFUL TOWNIE.

[Umbrage]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2866653

[Umbrage]

Because both were clearly able to post content. They chose not to do so. There's a difference between active lurking and lurking.

[Umbrage]

.

[Umbrage]

OH WOW AMRUN WAS MAFIA I WONDER WHO COULD'VE SEEN THAT ONE COMING.

[Umbrage]

You mostly tunneled on Exe, Umbrage. Then yopu got modkilled. Thanks bro. We appreciate it.

Bullshit. Read over day 2. Setael and I were the ONLY ones wanting an Amrun lynch.

TWO LESSONS LEARNED FROM THIS GAME:

1. WHEN SOMEONE KILLS YOUR COP, YOU KILL THEM. I actually thought that this was obvious enough that even vezok could do it. Apparently not.

2. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS LISTEN TO UMBRAGE.

[Umbrage]

The reason I was modkilled was because the site hiccuped and posted my night vote in thread instead of PMing the mod. Since it shouldn't have happened if the thread had been locked, MG forgave me, but he'd already flipped me, so there was nothing to be done. Although, it's not like I wasn't confirmed town anyway after SO's lynch.

[Umbrage]

2. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS LISTEN TO UMBRAGE.

Lol, and lynch me, FF, Vezok, SV, and Setael.

Right.

You make me laugh. And i'm not laughing with you.

Coming from the leader of the STRUNGOVER IS SCUM AND UMBRAGE IS SCUM WE MUST KILL THEM ZERGGGGGGG team?

FACT: If you had listened to me, we would've killed scum D1. (charter)
FACT: If you had listened to me, we would've killed scum D2. (Amrun)
FACT: If you had listened to me, we wouldn't have killed obvtown StrungOver.

The ONLY reason I thought FF was scum was because he was refusing to lynch Amrun.

The ONLY reason I thought Setael was scum was because he was the only person who didn't suck.

Amrun killed vezok, not me. Do you really have such a short memory?

If you had killed Amrun instead of your shitty no-lynch fiasco, we would've had a chance. If you had listened to CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN, we would've had a chance.

I nailed 2 scum. You and your cronies nailed 1/2. (I'm being generous and giving you half a point for suspecting TwistedSpoon.)

[Umbrage]

I had great fun in this game.

Agreed that a VT role pm should be posted.

This. Role PM bullshit like that should never happen in a game.

[Umbrage]

ME: 2/4 scum.

YOU: 0/4 scum.

MATH DOESN'T LIE, PEOPLE.

[Umbrage]

IF WE END UP LOSING THIS GAME TO AMRUN-SCUM I AM CREATING A PETITION TO RESTRICT EVERYONE BUT SETAEL TO NEWBIE GAMES FOR THE NEXT FIVE YEARS.

OH WOW LOOKIE HERE

[Umbrage]

DAY 1

UMBRAGE: I think charter is scum.

EXE: LOL NO WAY HE IS SCUM AMRUN IS SCUM!

UMBRAGE: I'm not too sure...

AMRUN FUCKS TOWN

DAY 2

UMBRAGE: OK dude, you were right, Amrun is scum. Let's kill her!

EXE: LOL NO WE'RE GONNA KILL STRUNGOVER NOW!

TOWN LOSES.

[Umbrage]

ISO me. I presented all my reads in a calm and civil manner. It was only when Exe and Final Fires started posturing and driving the town towards certain death that I had to ramp it up. Thinking back, I'd say the only thing I would've done differently is that I would not have let my scumread on charter drop so easily.

[Umbrage]

I don't care if I wasn't a smiling friendly face thing or whatever.

I was still right.

Call me all the names you want.

I was still right.

[Umbrage]

I'll miss you FF! It was great debating with you.

[Umbrage]

swingy =/= unbalanced