Mini 1148 -- Spare Me Mafia (Game Over)

[Umbrage]

I didn't get a role...

[Umbrage]

SO 4 PEOPLE GET TO DIE

VEZOK
CHESS
APOKALPTIPKA
UMBRAGE

READY
SET
GO

Ultimately the only way to play this setup seems to be that as the day progresses each player keeps a list of players they don't/do want saved and we work from there.

Masons or scum? I'm thinking scum.

My meta on CK3 reads town. He just likes claiming. Don't know why.

[Umbrage]

I know it's only page 3, but I am getting really strong scum vibes from Duplicity. Look at his ISO:

On top of that 'The QTs are all' implies more then one, multiple scum-allignments?

Who'd be the most concerned over multiple scum factions? Scum. He's guessing at the set-up, but instead of trying to figure out the abilities of scum, he's trying to figure out if there's another scum faction. Scum's biggest problem is always an opposing scum faction.

Ultimately the only way to play this setup seems to be that as the day progresses each player keeps a list of players they don't/do want saved and we work from there.

This was posted just after Fate started doing just that. Either they're two players who can communicate with each other or Duplicity was basing his suggestion off of what Fate started. Either way, it doesn't look good for him.

Given the situation being Umbrage wasn't given a role PM intially I'm going to assume the likelyhood that he's mafia is dropped significantly. I also do currently have a town-read on him and Chesskid, though I need to discuss this with my other head later.

R said this. Which is interesting because earlier G wrote this:

I honestly don't think voting every player is likely to reveal anything, however,

R thinks chesskid is probably town

for suggesting it regardless. I'm inclined to agree.

G.

So G clearly knew about R's read on chesskid3. And if R had been reading G's posts, he would've known G agreed. But he still said that he needs to talk with him about it.

Either G and R have a serious communication problem, or R said he needed to discuss chesskid3 with his other head to avoid giving a definite read. Scum like to leave wagons open. R could say that G found chesskid3 scummy, and the two could then bandwagon him if needed.

Internet Stranger, there's obviously more than one anti-town alligned role in the game, therefore there's no reason to be complaining about having more than one player die at the end of the day phase.

Again with the multiple scum factions.

It benefits scum to have more than one person die per day if there are multiple scum factions. Scum will be looking to lynch scum.

You're attemping to attack Chesskid for claiming a role he claims to be given, do you really not see the problem in that?

This statement makes no sense. "Claiming a role he claims to be given"? As opposed to claiming a role he claims not to have been given? Scum fakeclaim all the time. When confronted with a claim, some skepticism is necessary. It's a perfectly valid line of inquiry, and I don't understand why you're against it. Have you never encountered a fakeclaim before?

You're not exactly making sense InternetStranger, his claim states he needs an extra vote to survive therefore one less person gets a vote, that's basic logic and therefore shouldn't need to be something he would have to point out himself.

No one stated anything about it becoming a mass-claim style game, but those people who have very different roles actually need to claim in order to survive, thus what Chesskid seemed to have done. There's nothing scummy about it, there's nothing chaotic about it, you're merely misrepresenting the situation.

I have no idea what this means. If what CK3 is saying is true, then it's possible that someone else would need to die for him to live. And it's entirely possible this is a scum plot to get someone else to die. I doubt it, but it's possible.

SUMMARY:

I see clear scum motives in Duplicity's behaviour by speculating on multiple scum factions, parroting/buddying, and launching unfounded attacks. There is a clear breakdown in communication between the heads that should not happen if both are paying proper attention to the game. Considering we're only on page 3, I have a shitload of reasons to think they are scum.

FoS: Duplicity

[Umbrage]

You've misread this entire situation, InternetStranger was attacking the idea of having to keep one less person safe rather then attacking the claim or Chesskid. In other words - InternetStrangers response towards the claim was not one of questioning and concern over whether it's real or not, it was one of concern over the repucussions over having two votes on one person thus what I was pointing out.

The two are related. Obviously, it's no big deal to give CK3 an extra vote if he's town, in fact it's a really good thing. But if he's scum, this could be a ploy to get a two-for-one mislynch. So his concerns about the extra vote are tied with CK3's alignment.

CK3 has claimed an anti-town role, unless he has some sort of superpower to make up for his weakness, he is anti-town. No question about that. The only question is whether or not he is scum.

* The post has nothing to do with nor does it mention multiple scum factions, I'm attempting to point out having two people lynched if anything benefits us due to the fact there's more then one mafia.

And what if CK3 is mafia? It doubles our losses.

Basic human instinct is to attempt to work out what you're up against, therefore the strive towards finding information is in no way a scum-tell nor a town-tell. Personally (I can't speak for G) I prefer to start of any given setup with discussion based around setup speculation, this is strengthened by paying close attention to the detail of the rules and mechanics in the setup to see if there is any indication of what we're playing - thus the noticing of 'QTs'.

This is bullshit. There is NO reason why any town player should be concerned with multiple scum factions at this point.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, you're essentially saying if he's town we want to save him if he's mafia he might be pulling a ploy so we don't, that's basic logic meaning and leads to no real conclusion. His claim means nothing unless you beleive it's entirely fake. So I'm just going to outright say this - Umbrage do you believe Chesskid and Fishys claims, yes or no?

I believe they likely have the restrictions they say they have. However, this doesn't mean they are scum or town. And I think skepticism of the claims is healthy. Questioning things is pro-town. Trying to shut up people who question things is anti-town.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, I completly agree questioning things is perfectly fine and pro-town, I have no issue with that whatsoever, that's not exactly what people are doing though. People are stating intent to lynch someone based on their claim without discussion revolving around it.

Lynch someone without discussion? That's what you think Internet Stranger is doing? The very nature of this game means that it is almost impossible to get a quicklynch on anyone.

And why Internet Stranger?

CHESS YOU ALREADY HARDCLAIMED ANTI-TOWN

DONT FUCKIN PRETND YOURE GOING TO LIVE PAST TODAY

Why isn't that a sign of someone trying to kill a player based on solely his claim without discussion?

Oh right, because you've been kissing Fate's ass all game. I haven't forgotten how you proposed we should all play the game like Fate is playing it.

[Umbrage]

1. In this game, there is an obvious mafia strategy - that of scum voting for each other a lot. This makes the scum potentially extremely hard to lynch.
2. Therefore, the mod will have taken some countermeasures to prevent such a strategy.
3. While it could not be the only countermeasure for the reason you set out (barring a scumteam of size 2; perfectly possible in multiscum), having one scumbag need two votes to be saved would be an excellent countermeasure.
4. It is pretty likely that that's exactly what chesskid's role is doing in the game.

Good point. Then again, isn't it possible that scum having no vote is another way to balance this?

Also: Why the hell are people saying that there are likely two scum teams? Duplicity's been doing this a lot, is he crazy or have I missed something?

Chesskids role doesn't prevent mafia from cross-sparing unless you think there's only two mafia.

You're assuming that one scum requires two votes to survive. If there are three scum, this means that it'll take the other two scum to vote the scum that needs two votes in order to save that scum, and that means the two-vote scum has to choose which lackey to save. In other words, they can't all protect each other. They have three votes between them and need four. Besides, if two players are both voting for the same person, WE WOULD FUCKING NOTICE.

In fact, in this scenario, the BEST play for a two-votes-required scum would be to convince the town to spare him, WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT CHESSKID3 IS DOING. Therefore Internet Stranger has EVERY RIGHT to question this claim.

Nowhere did I state IS specifically, although I think his logic and reasoning is [Redacted], I do have a slight town read on him.

What the fuck? All you've done so far is whine about how he's going after CK3, and now you say you don't even think he's scum? What the fuck have you been then? Who do you find scummy? You haven't said. You've been giving the appearance of scum hunting, but really all you're doing is buddying up to Fate, speculating about multiple scumteams, and defending chesskid3. I don't see a pro-town reason to do any of those things.

[Umbrage]

softclaim timeeeeeeeeeeeeee


i'm not getting lynched today

[Umbrage]

Yes, but no one has questioned Fishys claim.

I think I just did. Nice try, though.

No, lets use a scenario to show what I mean. Lets say in this scenario there's 3 mafia, there's no vig. One of the three mafia require two votes to live, the other two don't. Mafia A votes mafia B. Mafia B votes mafia A. Mafia C is the one that needs two votes can do whatever the fuck he wants. This mafia gets lynched. Mafia A and B repeat until game end where they win. Therefore there has to be something put in place to prevent it, and it's not what Chesskids roleclaim involves. So either, you think there's two mafia in the setup and Chesskids roleclaim is what is preventing mafia from crossvoting winning or there's three mafia and Chesskids role is irrelevant.

OK, let's assume for a second that you're right, and the mod would never ever have made scum need 2 votes as a balancing mechanic. What makes you think CK3 isn't scum lying about needing 2 votes?

Simple. Sparking discussion, forcing people to make stands to attain reads. As for who I think is scummy, I have gut-scum read on someone but I want to discuss it with G before I announce it.

This isn't sparking discussion. It's limiting discussion. IS was sparking discussion. You tried to get him to stop.

"Rather pointless setup stuff"

UR DOIN IT RONG

[Umbrage]

IS WASNT SPARKING DISCUSSION
IS WAS SOAPBOXING YOU DIMWIT

CALL IT WHAT YOU WILL, IT'S NOT WHAT DUPLICITY IS SAYING IT IS.

[Umbrage]

I have the power to fuck with your plans, btw.

Anyone who still wants chesskid3 alive after reading this needs to die with him.

I want some more content from Fate. He's doing a good job of acting pro-town, but really hasn't contributed to the game in any way beyond TRIPLE POLICY LYNCH YEAH.

My kill list:

Duplicity
chesskid3

[Umbrage]

DERP CREW UNITE!

STILL WANT SOME CONTENT FROM YOU.

[Umbrage]

I NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER SAID I HAD A TOWN READ ON YOU YOU ABSOLUTE DUMBFUCK.

[Umbrage]

Oh right, because you've been kissing Fate's ass all game. I haven't forgotten how you proposed we should all play the game like Fate is playing it.

LOOKS LIKE YOUR FATE IS SEALED.

IF NOTHING ELSE, I ONLY CARE ABOUT UMBRAGES DEATH TODAY

THAT DOES NOT MEAN YOU ARE TOWN.

IT MEANS HE IS BUDDYING YOU.

I THOUGHT YOU WERE SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD AT THIS.

MY KILL LIST NOW INCLUDES YOU. CONGRATS.

[Umbrage]

So... SCUMMY people buddying me doesn't make me town.

And now you have an OMGUS scumread on me.

YUP.

You're for dying,

YOU'VE NEVER FUCKING HEARD OF SCUM BUDDYING EACH OTHER?

THIS ENTIRE ATTACK ON ME IS A CHAINSAW OF DUPLICITY.

WHO, BIG SURPRISE, THINKS YOU'RE THE GREATEST.

2 + 2 = FATE AND DUPLICITY ARE SCUM.

IT'S NOT OMGUS WHEN YOU'RE SCUMMY.

TODAY WE KILL FATE AND DUPLICITY.

TOMORROW WE DO A HAPPY DANCE.

[Umbrage]

Finally had a chance to have a conversation with G. We've decided to refrain from posting about our FoS at this point because we have enough meta-tells on this player to attain a stronger read from them if we just let them play their natural game.

Umbrage, you have a tendancy to tunnel and not read peoples posts properly - Never have I stated I think Fate is the greatest, in fact I find his play-style to be sub-par but that's a conversation for another day.

R.

No.

Sorry, but you don't get a get-out-of-scumhunting-free card because you're a hydra, or you've got 'meta-tells', or whatever.

I have a tendency to tunnel. OK. What the hell does that mean? Am I scum or town? Same goes for Fate. This is NOT 'a conversation for another day', this is a conversation to have RIGHT NOW. SCUM OR TOWN?

Don't wait for your second head. Don't second-guess yourself with meta. Don't fucking stall any longer. WHO IS SCUM?

[Umbrage]

I know that I have a higher chance of attaining a solid read on my current FoS if I allow them to play as they naturally do for a while longer. Don't get me wrong, I do plan on outing them way before day end.

Read: I'm going to wait until I know what bandwagon is popular.

Fate might be just dumb, but Duplicity is scum, people. Go ahead and join the FATEDERPTEAM if you want, but Duplicity needs to go.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage - You only have to think about it for two seconds, If I were mafia wouldn't I want to out an alternative FoS to attempt to cast suspicion and attention elsewhere? Therefore the fact that I'm withholding some of my thoughts is a complete null-tell.

In what way do you not understand that if I were to just out my FoS right now it would result in a diminishment in the chance that I would be able to reaffirm it later on?

1) That's WIFOM.

2) In my experience scum tend to leave backdoors for themselves.

3) You haven't even said who your FoS is on. You could point to anybody later and say "I thought they were scummy from the beginning".

4) Such play is the opposite of what town normally does. It's accepted practice to build a case as you go. That way you get feedback, if there's a valid explanation for something you thought was scummy, you can let it drop. Other people can contribute to the case, and you can judge reactions. Cutting yourself off from these resources is illogical, unless you have something to hide.

[Umbrage]

1) That's not what I mean by backdoor. I mean that you have been avoiding giving definite reads, always leaving a way to allow yourself to switch opinions as developments occur. While everyone changes their mind, it's scummy to do it preemptively.

2) G is certainly a resource you should use. But we need to know who finds who scummy, particularly with the absence of standard lynch mechanics. Sharing reads allows the rest of the town to give their opinion on said reads, it's the best way to find links between players, and the only way a wagon can grow.

[Umbrage]

Freewill - If what you're after is to increase the pressure towards those who have yet to post real content then why put a save vote on one of the players who is actively lurking at the moment - Wouldn't creating pressure be more revealing in regards to his allignment than that of some of the inactive players?

Agreed. Vezok is definitely not an MVP. Why spare him?

[Umbrage]

Anyhow
I have a confirmable as town role of some sort
so shut the hell up and move to someone else

Yeah, right.

stuff

So, only one scum read? Alright. But why do you think chesskid3 is not lying about his role?

more stuff

What ability is this? Because if it's some sort of neutral party auto-win, you can forget it.

Seriously WTF did I do to get so much town cred?

I've been wondering this myself. But I'd say reading the thread would be a good start to keeping it.

[Umbrage]

spare: vezo

I'm gonna start "sparing" my suspects, and I don't like the questioning of his own town cred

Please don't. It's way too confusing. FoS if you must.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage. No, Im not some god damn third party Sk/Joker/Jester/Killer/Whatever.

Whoa, calm down, dude.

Look, obviously neither myself or anyone else is going to give you a second vote until we know exactly what this ability is. If it's a one-shot deal, it might not be good to use it today.

In other news:

CK3 NEEDS TO FUCKING DIE.

OK, maybe I can buy that he's a limited town role that needs two votes to live. Maybe. But I do NOT believe for one second that that role is a FUCKING VIG.

Duplicity, you have GOT to be with me on this. You're so sure there are multiple scum factions? WELL WHAT IS THE BEST POSSIBLE CLAIM FOR SCUM WHEN THERE ARE TWO TEAMS?

That's right, a fucking VIG. Because town won't be able to tell the difference.

WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE THAT CK3 IS TOWN?

HE CLAIMED EARLY.

That's the best possible tactic for scum. He knows he needs two votes, no competent townie will vote someone twice, and he can't get his buddies to vote him without exposing the team.

Klazam's reasoning for voting chesskid3, or the lack of it, SUCKS.

THERE IS NO WAY I AM LOSING THIS GAME TO CHESSKID3 SCUM. HE DIES TODAY.

[Umbrage]

Is Role Cop a scum-only role? I'm used to normal cops being role cops.

Honestly, even if CK3 is telling the truth, I don't want him alive. Vig is not a role that should go to the most impulsive player in the game. But regardless of that debate, there is an incredibly high chance CK3 is scum with that claim.

The way I see it, either Internet Stranger or chesskid3 is telling the truth, but not both. I'm leaning towards Internet Stranger, but I'm not entirely sure at this point.

[Umbrage]

The way I see it, Umbrage is scum setting up a false dichotomy.

So yeah.

I thought about that. But I can't see the mod using that mechanic for two town roles or two scum roles. One of each, maybe. Two, too much.

Also, I have an important message for you all:

THERE IS ZERO REASON TO BELIEVE CHESSKID3 IS TOWN. THERE IS PLENTY OF REASON TO BELIEVE HE IS SCUM.

TWO SAVE VOTES OR DEATH IS NOT BALANCED FOR TOWN. IT IS BALANCED FOR SCUM.

VIG IS JUST ANOTHER WORD FOR SK OR SCUM.

CHESSKID3 DIES TODAY.

Thank you.

[Umbrage]

Duplicity + Fate + chesskid3 = SCUMBUDDIES!!!

Really, is there any downside to having these three gone? Trust me, if chesskid3 is a vig, town is way better off without him.

[Umbrage]

Oh, of course we

can

be sure that chess isn't a SK, so that's nice.

I say we leave him alive. His alignment is likely to become clear. If he's scum, we aren't losing much by letting him live - it's not like that gives scum an extra shot - and if he's town we would lose a lot by killing him.

And how many townies have to die before you'll begin to think he's lying?

[Umbrage]

Duplicity + Fate + chesskid3 = SCUMBUDDIES!!!

Really, is there any downside to having these three gone? Trust me, if chesskid3 is a vig, town is way better off without him.

Hey I mean if you want to put your head in a noose and you like it there, then go right ahead.

OOH I'M REALLY FUCKING SCARED NOW.

[Umbrage]

I thought he was my scumbuddy? Now you're calling him a SK?

I don't think he'd like that. Mafia have standards, SKs are just horrible people.

I DID NOT SAY HE WAS AN SK YOU STUPID STUPID MAN.

FISHY SAID HE MIGHT BE AN SK.

TRY AGAIN.

[Umbrage]

I already addressed it pay fuckin attention

Trying to find out what you're referring to would require viewing your ISO, and I don't think anyone wants to go there.

[Umbrage]

OK, some thoughts on the game after a good night's sleep:

1) Fate is likely town. At first I thought he could be buddies with Duplicity. Then I thought he was buddies with chesskid3 as well. Now we have the shit with Freewill, and I think he's just blowing his mouth off at anyone who crosses his path. So I'm dropping all of that stuff for now, and there's really nothing else that makes me think he's scum.

2) Duplicity's been getting a free ride in this game. I remember them making a case against Apokalyptika that just vanished. They've said they have a scum read on Freewill, and that's gone nowhere as well. They're actively lurking, not shit-posting like Fate and co., but willfully avoiding making any content when they appear perfectly able to do so. I don't buy the "well G's gone" excuse, the whole point of having a hydra is so that one person can take breaks from the game while the other contributes.

3) Either chesskid3 does a full role claim now, or we kill him. I'm not playing riddles. Full claim. Now. Unless there is some way to prove he is town, we kill him. I'm not playing with a "vig who requires an extra vote or death" role. I've yet to see one good argument as to why chesskid3 is town. It has been shown why scum needing two votes to live is a good balance mechanic, and why it suits scum to say this early. There is no difference between a bad vig and scum. A killing role with a scummy mechanic is likely scum. If anyone except Fate can come up with a reason as to why he's town, please do so, I've been looking for one.

4) Fate, why did you give IS a second vote? We still haven't decided whether his role is likely scum or not.

Klazam, if you unspare CK3, I will spare you.

[Umbrage]

And then someone else will spare me, and I will shoot one of you n1 and the other n2

yawn

HEY EVERYONE, STILL THINK CK3VIG IS A PRO-TOWN THING???

I am close to just replacing out if you people don't kill this lunatic. Seriously.

[Umbrage]

Spare: Chesskid

I say we all spare CK, and let scum decide the rest.

I hope this is a joke post. If it isn't, just don't play mafia any more, ever.

[Umbrage]

I'm struggling with my chesskid read. He seems to be saying "I don't care what you think, and I'm going to use this role exactly like scum would". But... that's not something I'd expect any alignment to say.

That's the thing with chesskid3. When I played with him, he was town, and although he showed signs of being really smart, he was way too impulsive and pissed everyone off. If he really worked at it, he could be great. But now he's just playing like a VI.

[Umbrage]

That means that Chesskid is the destroyer of worlds and bringer of death.

FUCK IT NOW I'M GOING TO HAVE NIGHTMARES.

Umbrage, just a question for you ignore CKs claim, read his posts do you think he reads town or mafia?

Without meta? Null. The really annoying thing about CK3 is that he's really hard to read. With meta? Scummy. As town, he gets frustrated easily, but if you look closely there's good scumhunting to be found. He came into this game with a chip on his shoulder. There's a difference between "if someone pisses me off, I'll lose it" and "praise me all you idiots". The first is normal CK3 behaviour, the second is not. And he's really not trying to find scum. The most he has contributed is "I'M A VIG SO KISS MY ASS".

Reasons for believing Chesskids claims are as follows:
1. Post #18 - A) He states that his role is pretty anti-town, mafia have no reason to say that. B) He says he doesn't fully understand his role, considering his claim is 2 votes to live, gets a vig shot and a one shot governer this makes sensee.
2. Post #82 - States he's not getting lynched - Adds up with the one shot governer claim unless I'm understanding the role wrong.
3. Post #202 - States he has a counter to the 3 way lylo situation - Adds up witht he one shot governer claim again unless I'm understanding it wrong.
4. His arrogance and attitude today fits his role-claim, as well as his town-meta.
5. His role shows a possible counter to the mafia save-saving each other as he has the ability to night-kill them, therefore to say that his two spare is something mafia need is ignoring the opposite end of the spectrum being his vig shot is something town needs.

1. A) Sure they do, it's called WIFOM. B) Saying you don't understand your role is a way to stall until you can come up with a good fakeclaim.
2. Maybe, but still not an indicator of alignment.
3. I'm assuming you mean his governor can auto-lynch scum? But he said he has TWO counters to that situation. So what's the second? The only thing I can think of would be a day-vig, and he hasn't claimed that.
4. Does that mean Fate's a vig too? Some players are just arrogant naturally.
5. But didn't you say there was likely a second scum faction? If so, then the two factions counter each other, and there's no need for a vig. Or maybe the scum have another restriction we don't know about.

[Umbrage]

Thank god for good sense.

Why do people let the dufus play his little spiteful role. Even if he's town (which, as I've said, is doubtful) he's not making choices based on whether someone's town or not (his bravado aside). He's making it based on personal animosity. And I don't give two shits whether he's hard to read or not. Some asshole plays anti-town, he gets lynched. That's not just for meta reasons (those these are good too), it's because that type of bullshit snowballs within the game and just taints everything.

Best post in the game.

CK3, I might take your accusations against IS more seriously if this wasn't the Nth time you've attacked someone who's attacked you.

[Umbrage]

NONONO

CHESSKID3 IS SCUM.

THERE IS NO REASON TO THINK HE IS A VIG.

THERE IS PLENTY OF REASON TO THINK HE IS SCUM.

HOW MANY TOWNIES HAVE TO DIE BEFORE YOU SEE THE FUCKING TRUTH?

NOW TAKE OFF YOUR FREE WILL TUNNEL GOGGLES AND PLAY THIS GAME.

[Umbrage]

FATE AND CHESSKID3: A STORY OF LOVE AND HATE!

SO 4 PEOPLE GET TO DIE

VEZOK
CHESS
APOKALPTIPKA
UMBRAGE

CHESS YOU ALREADY HARDCLAIMED ANTI-TOWN

DONT FUCKIN PRETND YOURE GOING TO LIVE PAST TODAY

CHESSKIDS BUDDIES CAN VOTE TO SAVE HIM ANY DAMN TIME THEY PLEASE

Whatever, no ones going to save you without extreme scrutiny from me.

If you're gonna claim mason now might be the time to go for it

RESULT:

Duplicity Dies
Chessderp Dies
Vezok Dies

The sooner you come out with that fakeclaim the sooner people might be tricked into saving you.


I won't be though.

There is no will.

ONLY FATE

AND YOURS HAS BEEN WRITTEN:

"ILL DIE D1 LIKE A GOOD LIL SCUMBAG"

Notice how Chesskid hasnt' done shit but complain about his role and whine about my intelligence.


So YEAH hes dyin

then chesskid lives and Dupe Vezok and Umbrage die.

Which I suppose is just as fine

Ohohoho now things are getting interesting.


So chess, what scumpowers do you have to ruin the town's collective effort to save themselves?

IF NOTHING ELSE, I ONLY CARE ABOUT UMBRAGES DEATH TODAY

Hell fuckin no.

I want all three dead.

But if I had to pick Id want Umbrage dead and the others vigged.

AREY OU A USURPER??

FUCK YOU CHESSKID

FUCKING FUCK YOU.

LYLO:
2 town.
1 scum.

"OH SHIT I NEED TO SAVE VOTES GUIZ"-chesskidtown (hypotehtical)
IMPOSSIBLE

Auto-town Loss.

GG.


NOPE DONT THINK SO

you are the vig that can mess with votes and prisoners dillemas and waffles for breakfast

LOLYEAHOK

I usually have fun mislynchinh chess, but this hgame I can't do it.

RESULTS:
Vezok dies
Duplicity dies
Umbrage dies

@Duplicity: Whats this, because CHESSKID is town suddenly you should be town by association because you defended him?

CHESSKID IS MOST LIKELY SCUM, APPARENTLY, ECHOING A POPULAR STANCE TAKEN BY REAL MEN WITH REAL VALUES.

I don't want to white Knight Chesskid, because I hate him more than everyone else here combined, BUT LYNCHING A VIG BECAUSE YOU THINK HELL SHOOT WRONGLY IS FUCKIN STUPID.

I don't think I need to say anything else...

[Umbrage]

There's other posts in between some of these, where Fate shifts his stance gradually.

No. I took out every part of every post where he refers to chesskid3.

My favourite two are these:

The sooner you come out with that fakeclaim the sooner people might be tricked into saving you.


I won't be though.

I don't want to white Knight Chesskid, because I hate him more than everyone else here combined, BUT LYNCHING A VIG BECAUSE YOU THINK HELL SHOOT WRONGLY IS FUCKIN STUPID.

Don't be fooled by any CK3 claim becauOH WAIT HE'S A VIG WE CANT LYNCH VIGS!!!!!!!

@ Klazam: Why are you sparing chesskid3?

[Umbrage]

WHY DO YOU THINK HE IS TOWN?

[Umbrage]

YES THEY WOULD.

BECAUSE THEY WANT TO APPEAR TOWN.

SAYING YOU KNOW YOU APPEAR SCUMMY IS AN OLD PSYCH TRICK.

IF HE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING WE WOULD GO "BUT THAT'S SCUMMY"!

IF HE SAYS IT THOUGH, HE GETS TOWN POINTS FOR DOING SO.

REMEMBER THAT OLD STORY ABOUT GEORGE WASHINGTON?

HE ADMITTED HE CUT DOWN THE TREE.

HE WAS LOVED BECAUSE HE ADMITTED IT.

WOULD WE STILL LIKE HIM IF HE LIED?

NO.

BUT BECAUSE HE ADMITTED IT, IT'S OK THAT HE'S AN AXE-WIELDING MANIC.

SEE?

[Umbrage]

Saying you know you look scummy makes you look more town.

[Umbrage]

I guess we have to agree to disagree on this.

There's nothing to disagree about. You saying that CK3 saying 'I'm antitown' means he's not scum is like insisting the world is flat. Simple logic disproves it.

I have common sense, meta, logic, and a strong sense of self-preservation on my side. You have a bit of WIFOM. This is not one of those ambiguous moral issues where there is no clear right and wrong. There are no philosophers pouring over texts and arguing heatedly about this issue. There is no right and wrong, only smart and stupid.

Are you really willing to risk all our lives because chesskid3 said something that scum probably wouldn't say, unless of course they were... well, TRYING TO APPEAR TOWN?

[Umbrage]

@ Duplicity:

Sorry about the quote, I didn't fake anything, but I mistakenly attributed it to you when really it was IS that said it.

1. A) Yes, it's WIFOM. Saying it would be a town-tell, but it's such a well-known scumtell that scum can fake it easily.
2. I know chesskid3. He's extremely impulsive. In lylo, he almost hammered someone he thought was town. Trust me, if he had a governor ability he would've used it by now.
5. If a vig was used to try and balance the set-up, this would simply turn into a race of scum trying to kill the vig before the vig hits all but one of the scum. No scumhunting needed. It still breaks the game. So I doubt that a vig is the answer to the scum-spare-each-other problem. There has to be something else.

[Umbrage]

1) A) I have an unorthodox view of WIFOM - I believe the word WIFOM is overused and that a large deal of actions that are called or put of as WIFOM are things that you can actually draw from.
2) I can agree that he seems to be impulsive, but what difference does that have to a potential second possibly to prevent the 3 way scenario.
5) I do agree with you here, I believe I stated so earlier - A vig along has no chance at being a realistic counter to mafia-mafia saving. There indeed DOES have to be something else - And from the claims we've had today none of them solve it completely.

1. A) It's WIFOM in the sense that the argument "he said this, therefore he's town" can be dispelled with "but scum would know saying that would make them look town, therefore he's scum".
2. I'm fairly certain he doesn't have a governor ability. He fakeclaims even when town.

[Umbrage]

Lalallalalalalaaaa

You realize you haven't done a single useful thing all game, right?

[Umbrage]

I outed Free Will scum, YOU scum, and Duplicity scum.

I think you're wrong about Will, I KNOW you're wrong about me, and I was on Duplicity while you sitting on your ass.

And yeah, I'm wrong about Umbrage, but you won't catch me admitting it.

Uh...

What?

[Umbrage]

OH SO YOUR BUDDIES ARE LURKING?

THANKS FOR TELLING ME.

YES JUST CALL THE DUEL WON AND DONT TRY TO REFUTE ANY POINTS

THE FACT THAT YOU TALK TO ME AS IF IM TOWN IS AS DAMNING AS IT GETS

HEH

HEAHEAHHA

THE FACT THAT YOU TALK TO ME AS IF IM TOWN IS AS DAMNING AS IT GETS

YOU TALK TO ME AS IF IM TOWN

AS IF IM TOWN

[Umbrage]

And as if that wasn't bad enough...

SHUT UP SCUMBAG YOU ARENT GETTING OUT OF HERE WITHOUT YOU AND YOUR BUDDY DEAD

BUDDY? Singular? I'd expect a scum team of THREE in this game. Unless you know if there's an SK or something...

[Umbrage]

iirc umbrage has threatened to replace out as scum before as a cheap trick to seem more townish

iirc chesskid3 only reads the posts that concern whether or not he'll be lynched soon like the scumbag he is

[Umbrage]

I'm perfectly willing to spare Klazam, on one condition...

[Umbrage]

If its "LYNCH CHESS HURR" then, denied,

AS IF IM TOWN

AS IF IM TOWN

AS IF IM TOWN

AS IF IM TOWN

AS IF IM TOWN

AS IF IM TOWN

You've lost the privilege of denying things, sorry.

[Umbrage]

You just did make it, LOL. But I'm bored talking to you. Bring out your buddy chesskid!

[Umbrage]

Fate? Buddying to someone as scum?

Are you sane umbrage?

Oh, sorry, does it conflict with his I'M SUCH A FUCKING BADASS meta? 'Cause I don't give a shit. Any meta that someone TRIES to create is inherently worthless. I'm about as sane as you are scummy, by the way.

[Umbrage]

Damn Stranger, I am continiually amazed by your ability to nail the entire scumteam D1.

Maybe I should bus instead of obvdefend my buddies... ill try that next time I'm scum never bussed before...

I'd respond to this, but there's really nothing to respond to. Just empty sarcasm.

Let me take a moment to state something as clear as possible: The main reason I think you could be scum is because you've been ignoring everything everyone says and pushing your own agenda. I doubt scum would be as obvious as you and chesskid3, but I don't see any other possibilities.

[Umbrage]

DAMN IT! STOP ACTING SCUMMY, PEOPLE! WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO KILL OFF HALF THE PLAYERS AT THIS RATE!

OK, let's recap. My scum list:

chesskid3 - bad claim, acting scummy
Duplicity - cozying up to CK3 and Fate, acting scummy
Fate - not scumhunting, buddying CK3 and Tony
vezokpiraka - buddying Fate
TonyMontana - inactive, protecting CK3
Klazam - apparently values CK3's life over his own

Klazam can get off this list any time he wishes. Fate and Tony can probably still be removed if they get their ass in gear. That leaves vezok, Dupe, and CK3. Sounds a good scumteam to me!

[Umbrage]

This game has stalled. I've noticed the players here have divided themselves into the rational people, and the people who worship chesskid3 and refuse to believe there is even a possibility that he is scum. The sad thing is that CK3 actually managed to trick Fate into believing he's town. What happened to all that "you won't fool me" bravado?

OK, Fate. Let's stop the posturing and decide who we're going to kill today. The good side of this set-up is that we can kill off multiple people, so everyone can get what they want.

I've already made it clear who I'd like to see dead. I think I know who you want dead. So I'm willing to trade you Freewill for chesskid3.

Spare: Freewill

Call your minions off CK3 and I take my spare off Freewill. We both get what we want. OK?

Unless CK3 is a buddy of yours, there's no reason for you to be protecting him. Even if for some unfathomable reason you think he's town, he is too dangerous to be left alive.

I think Freewill will probably flip town, but if killing him means we get rid of CK3 and you can focus properly on the game, it's worth the risk.

We've both done a lot of posturing, acted like tough guys, but now it's time to stop the bullshit and kill some scum.

[Umbrage]

Oh I'm buddying Fate?

I wonder why. Wait I am also Buddying to nacho. That means she is scum to right?

Umrage you're such an idiot you should just shut up.

Coming from anyone else, I'd consider that an insult.

[Umbrage]

CK3: TOWN

WHY? AND DON'T GIVE ME ANY MORE WIFOM BULLCRAP IF YOU WANT TO LIVE.

I'm still willing to unspare Freewill and spare Klazam as soon as chess is unspared.

[Umbrage]

CHESSKID3 IS NOT A VIG.

A VIG WOULD NOT HAVE A TWO SPARE VOTES OR DEATH RESTRICTION.

THAT JUST FLAGS THEM FOR A NIGHTKILL.

IF CHESSKID3 IS TOWN HE'S DEAD TONIGHT.

THERE IS NO FUCKING WAY A MOD WOULD CREATE A ROLE THAT IS SURE TO DIE NIGHT ONE.

ERGO HE IS NOT A VIG.

ERGO HE IS SCUM.

GET OFF YOUR FUCKING HIGH HORSE AND SEE REASON.

I'M NOT DYING TODAY, AND UNLESS YOU COOPERATE, I'M MAKING DAMN SURE FREEWILL ISN'T DYING EITHER.

YOU WANT FREEWILL, YOU GIVE ME CHESSKID3.

DUPLICITY, FREEWILL, AND CHESSKID3 DIE TODAY.

WE BOTH GET WHAT WE WANT.

[Umbrage]

"Tonymontanaaaaaaaaa" -IS
Maybe. The fact he won't spare chesskid is a point against him.

HE IS SPARING CHESSKID3. WHAT GAME ARE YOU PLAYING?

(btw if that doesn't 100% confirm chess as town then I JUST DONT KNOW what will)

HM... I POKE A HOLE IN HIS CLAIM, HE WANTS TO REPLACE OUT. NOPE, NOTHING SCUMMY THERE!

HIS RESTRICTION MAKES NO SENSE FOR A VIG.

HE MIGHT AS WELL HAVE A BIG "NK ME" SIGN STUCK TO HIS BACK.

THE RESTRICTION DOES NOT WORK FOR ANY PRO-TOWN PLAYER, BECAUSE IT'S A SURE SIGN OF A POWER ROLE.

IT ONLY MAKES SENSE FOR SCUM, BECAUSE THEY DON'T NEED TO FEAR THE NIGHTKILL.

AND LIKE IT OR NOT, I'M HERE TO STAY.

AND GUESS WHAT? YOU NEED ME.

YOU NEED SOMEONE TO TELL YOU WHEN YOU'RE OUT OF LINE.

I READ LOTR MAFIA, FATE.

YOU ARE SMART.

BUT YOU MAKE THE SAME MISTAKE ALL SMART PEOPLE MAKE:

YOU THINK EVERYONE ELSE IS STUPID.

I'M NOT DYING TODAY, FATE.

AND AS LONG AS CK3 IS GOING TO LIVE, FREEWILL IS GOING TO LIVE.

CK3 AND FREEWILL ARE STICKING TOGETHER.

YOU CAN BET YOUR ASS ON IT.

SO YOU HAVE A CHOICE.

EITHER WE LYNCH SCUM TODAY, OR CHESSKID3 WIPES OUT HALF THE TOWN.

YOU WANT A FUCKING LOTR REPEAT?

YOU WANT TO LOSE THE GAME BECAUSE YOU DON'T LISTEN TO ANYONE ELSE?

YOU WANT ME, DUPE, AND FREEWILL.

I WANT YOU, DUPE, AND CK3.

WE SETTLE FOR DUPE, CK3, AND FREEWILL.

EVERYBODY WINS.

THIS IS THE ONLY WAY FREEWILL DIES, FATE.

AS LONG AS CK3 LIVES, FREEWILL LIVES.

SO DO YOU WANT TO SIT ON YOUR ASS AND WHINE?

OR DO YOU WANT TO LYNCH SOME FUCKING SCUM TODAY?

[Umbrage]

Duplicity, and Fate's catching up. Vezok's also a likely buddy, as is Klazam.

@ Fate:

You speak as if you think CK3 is going to survive the night. If he's town, he's as good as dead. That's why the restriction makes no sense. It forces him to claim, which means he will definitely be NKed. THIS IS WHY NO SANE MOD WOULD USE THIS ROLE. THIS IS WHY IT HAS TO BE A FAKECLAIM.

IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU THINK, OR WHAT I THINK.

THERE IS NO WAY HIS ROLE IS IN THE GAME.

IT IS A DEATH WARRANT.

IT IS A GUARANTEED DEATH ON DAY ONE.

AND IF KEEPING FREEWILL ALIVE IS THE ONLY WAY THING I CAN DO TO MAKE YOU LISTEN TO REASON, THEN THAT SUCKER'S GOING TO STAY IN THE LAND OF THE LIVING.

THINK OF IT THIS WAY, FATE: NO SANE MAFIA WOULD GO AGAINST YOU WHEN YOU HAVE HALF THE TOWN ON YOUR SIDE. I HAVE TO BE TOWN. WHICH MEANS YOU HAVE TO TRUST ME.

TELL ME HOW HIS RESTRICTION CAN POSSIBLY MAKE SENSE WITH A PRO-TOWN ALIGNMENT?

EITHER HE DIES NIGHT ONE, OR THERE'S A DOCTOR AND WE GET A FOLLOW THE COP SCENARIO.

EITHER WAY, SET-UP IS BROKEN.

SO EITHER SET-UP IS BROKEN AND THE MOD DIDN'T TEST HIS PRIZED GAME BEFORE RUNNING IT, OR CK3 IS LYING.

WHICH ONE IS MORE LIKELY?

[Umbrage]

You want Duplicity, Freewill, and myself dead. If you don't deal with me, the only one you're going to get is Duplicity. If you do deal, you'll get Duplicity and Freewill. That, according to you, is two scum dead.

TWO SCUM DEAD ON DAY ONE.

Of course, when Freewill flips town, I'll laugh in your face. But that's not the point.

The point is that you can make a 1:1 trade.

One scum for one town.

If you are town, that's a good deal.

That's why I keep pushing it, BECAUSE I'M FUCKING TOWN.

If you are scum, though, it's not a good deal.

So tell me Fate, which are you?

Town or scum?

If you're town, there's nothing to fear. You will get two scum dead. That's over half the team gone in one day, and sure town victory from your point of view.

There is no pro-town reason to keep CK3 alive at the cost of letting Freewill scum get away.

Are you really sure CK3 will kill who you tell him to?

Are you willing to bet the entire game on chesskid3's being town?

[Umbrage]

BECAUSE YOUR LOGIC "CHESSKIDS ROLE IF TOWN WOULD DIE N1 THAT MAES NO FUCKIN SENSE" IS BULLSHIT AND MOD WIFOM TO THE MAX.

DONT OUTGUESS RC'S SETUPS YOU FUCKING CLOWN.

I'LL OUTGUESS WHOEVER THE FUCK I WANT.

TELL ME HOW CK3'S ROLE MAKES SENSE AS TOWN.

TELL ME.

[Umbrage]

I'll save Tony if he unsaves CK3.

Hm... when pressed to answer exactly how CK3 can be town, Fate disappears. WHAT A COINCIDENCE!

[Umbrage]

I'm town idiots.

Go search another place.

YOU HEAR THAT?

VEZOK'S OBVIOUSLY TOWN.

WHY DIDN'T YOU SAY SO TO BEGIN WITH?

Do you realize you are the worst player in a game that includes Fate and chesskid3?

[Umbrage]

I mean, Fate and chesskid3 are stupid scum, but at least they're TRYING! Vezok isn't even playing this game, and he's done this in every game I've played with him. Why he is allowed to remain on this site is beyond me.

[Umbrage]

My unwillingness to agrue stems from the fact that those people say that he's scum because he is a bad player. This I think is just stupid.

No, he's scum because his role cannot be pro-town without serious imbalance. Either the game is flawed, or he's scum.

I have yet to see someone explain how CK3's role is balanced for town. Every single defence of CK3 has been NO WAIZ HES TOWN YOUR SCUM!!!

[Umbrage]

Does anyone find it suspicious that The Mask and Nacho pop into the game only to spare one another, then promptly disappear?

^ is called scumhunting. The rest of you should try it sometime!

Oh, and Vezok, if you think you are confirmed town, you are too stupid to use a computer. Please walk away before you hurt yourself.

[Umbrage]

Seriously WTF did I do to get so much town cred? I really have to know so I can do that when I am scum.

[Umbrage]

@Nacho: Is anyone sparring you?

I JUST FUCKING SAID NACHO AND THE MASK WERE SPARING EACH OTHER.

LEARN TO FUCKING READ.

Umbrage you are a shit head. I think the entire game figured out why I am town but you are just stupid.

...was it something I said?

And inserting your tongue in Fate's colon does not make you confirmed town, sorry.

[Umbrage]

Oh really? How did Nacho confirm you? Was it this post?

Spare: The Mask

Brb, figuring out how to reverse scumhunt.

Or this post?

V/LA until Saturday

Almost forgot >.>

Noted

Or maybe this gem:

Hey Fate.
Can we smash through the scum, like the old days? You know, Carpe Diem and that kinda shit.

So... Save Apok and Tony, get Umbrage on that block, and klazam/IS with him for good measure. Chess will shoot scum.

Such a verbose, useful player Nacho is.

[Umbrage]

FATE.

Please read carefully. I'm going to try and outline my thought process as clearly as possible.

1)

Imagine you get a role PM. This role states that in order to live each day, you need two spare votes. Now, the default number of spare votes needed is one. So unless you say you need two spare votes, nobody will give you two spare votes.

So you say in thread, "I need two spare votes". The natural question players will ask of you is "Why do you need two spare votes?", at which point you have to give a valid reason for needing two spare votes.

The only reason is the truth: that you need two spare votes or you will die today.

We've now established that chesskid3's role REQUIRES him to claim day one, or die. Claiming is not optional. chesskid3 should not get town points because he claimed early.

Regardless of what his role is, chesskid3 had no choice but to claim today.

2)

Now that you've claimed you need two spare votes to survive, it is clear to everyone that you are not a vanilla townie. The default mechanics do not apply to you. You are something special.

There are two possibilities at this point. Either your role is a town-aligned power role, or your role is scum.

Everyone in the game knows you have got to be one of these things.

The only non-suicidal course of action is to claim a town-aligned power role.

chesskid3 claimed vig.

3)

If you are a town-aligned power role, you now have no choice but to claim your role day one. There is no other way to survive the day.

In claiming, scum will learn that you are a power role.

Scum will always try and kill a power role.

Therefore scum will kill you as soon as night hits.

This is the only outcome that can occur if every faction plays to their wincon.

FACT: chesskid3 would not be able to survive the day without claiming a power role.
FACT: Scum will always kill a confirmed power role over anyone else.
FACT: If chesskid3 is a power role, it is impossible for him to survive longer than night 1 if every faction plays to their wincon.

I do not believe the mod would put in a role that cannot survive longer than one game day.

I do not believe that set-up reviewers would approve of such a role.

Therefore I do not believe that such a role is in the game.

Therefore I believe chesskid3 is lying.

Therefore I believe chesskid3 is scum.

BUT THAT'S OUTGUESSING THE MOD!

If someone claimed 'double-voting tracker miller one-shot vig paranoid gun owner', would you believe them? Of course not. Because you would not expect any sane mod to put such a role into a game.

If someone claimed 'vig who automatically dies at the end of night one', would you believe them? Because that's what chesskid3 has claimed.

BUT THERE COULD BE A DOC TO PROTECT HIM!

Maybe. The doc would be able to make sure he survives. However, this would result in a follow-the-cop scenario, with the mafia trying to kill the doc before the vig killed all the mafia.

Such a scenario would not get past set-up review. That's not speculation, that's truth. When the open queue tried hosting a 12-player set-up with a doc and a cop, nobody wanted to join. Everyone hates follow-the-cop. It would not be allowed here.

BUT WHY WOULD SCUM CLAIM VIG?

It's logical to believe that with only one killing faction, it would be silly to claim a vig, as the number of nightkills would prove the claim was false.

But there are several plausible excuses for only one dead. There could've been a doctor protect. There could've been a roleblock. Or the scum might have no-killed to try and frame the vig. So even if chesskid3 survives tomorrow, he can spread lies and worm his way out of a lynch again. A vig is not a confirmable role.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Fate, if you see a hole in my reasoning, please point it out to me. I've been through this a million times in my head, and I see no way that chesskid3's claimed role can exist. If there's some mistake I'm making, something I've overlooked, I need to know so I can account for it.

If you can prove me wrong, I'll admit so. All I want is to lynch scum today. Just don't start argumentum ad verecundium again, that devolves into a pissing match and neither of us get anywhere.

Until a flaw in my reasoning has been pointed out to me, I have no choice but to believe chesskid3 is scum, and I'll do anything I can to get him lynched today. If that means holding Freewill hostage, so be it. I hate acting like a terrorist, but if I didn't, I wouldn't be playing to my wincon.

All I ask is that you read my arguments, and either agree that my logic is sound and kill chesskid3, or debate the points with me in a reasonable manner. Please.

[Umbrage]

@ Duplicity:

1. IS says he does not need two votes to live.
2. Therefore he does not have to claim today, so his role is not unbalanced.
3. This does however beg the question of why he would claim today if he did not need to do so.
4. IS may have hoped the mafia would go for chesskid3 tonight, ensuring he would live to post his result.

But this is speculation on my part. All I know for sure is that CK3 is definitely scum, and I doubt IS is his buddy. So either IS is town, or he is on a separate scum faction from CK3. It is pointless to look for multiple factions on D1, so I'm putting IS on my town list for now.

[Umbrage]

Hm...

@ Internet Stranger: Do you know of any way we can learn of your investigation result if you are killed tonight?

[Umbrage]

FACT: Scum will always kill a confirmed power role over anyone else.

FACT: You've never heard of roleblockers.

Anyway, now that that house of cards is broken, can we lynch Free Will?

He's claimed scum at this point.

I'll even consider letting Chess die just to kill him

Still a broken role because:

a) chesskid3 will NEVER EVER EVER get a single kill.

and

b) Scum have little choice but to use their roleblock on CK3 every single night.

[Umbrage]

THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO FUCKING WAY CHESSKID3 IS TOWN.

IT IS IMPOSSIBLE.

IMPOSSIBLE.

HE IS CONFIRMED SCUM.

[Umbrage]

Internet Stranger - I discussed Umbrages 'Good point', and there's a gapping flaw in it being it all gets removed with the inclusion of a doctor in the setup, which is highly likely considering the role you've claimed yourself. He even took a second to step back to reconsider his position, then for some reason decided it was time to start yelling and screaming instead of dicussing it again.

Nachos really dropping the ball in this game - I suggest he either catch up or replace out, same to TheMask.

NOPE. IT'S STILL BROKEN.

A DOC PRODUCES A FOLLOW-THE-COP SCENARIO.

STILL NO WAY CK3 CAN BE TOWN, BUT KEEP TRYING.

[Umbrage]

AND I NOTICE FATE'S TOO STUPID/CHICKEN/WHATEVER TO TRY AND CHALLENGE MY LOGIC.

[Umbrage]

RC made an imperfect set-up that didn't fully account for the implications of Chesskid's role and how it would need to claim.
RC predicted that sicne Fishy didnt need a save vote giving one to the Vig who would NOT have to fullclaim D1, just softclaim he needs a new vote.

Since he is softclaimed, scum have to wonder whether to RB him or not (Said RB's existence NOT YET proven), or whether to kill him or not (fear of Doc)

1) And this imperfect set-up somehow found it's way past set-up review?
2) Having an extra save vote at the end of the day =/= I THINK I'LL SPARE CK3 AGAIN FOR LULZ!!!

[Umbrage]

Fate, all your DIE SCUM DIE isn't going to do anything, sorry. Freewill's fate will be the same as chesskid3's. Get your goons to kill me if you want, you'll just waste time and townies.

You want Freewill dead? You just gotta do one little thing...

[Umbrage]

Also get him to answer where exactly it "clearly" says it in the OP while you're at it, Umbrage.

Yeah, because we have such a good relationship...

[Umbrage]

I'm on the lynchblock again. what's your case on me?

Keeping confirmed scum alive. I'd say that's enough logic from me.

Unspare

SO! Who's going to be the lucky one to get my spare vote? Klazam? Duplicity? First one to kill scum gets the prize!

[Umbrage]

Oh wait, Dupe's already spared by his scumbuddy. Oh well. KLAZAM, COME ON UP HERE AND CLAIM YOUR PRIZE!!!

[Umbrage]

Umbrage: I do not understand your logic for refusing to allow a vig to live one night to see whether he has a real power or not.

Because there is no way to tell the difference between a vig and an SK or a member of a second scum team.

@IS: Who do you think is scum and why?

[Umbrage]

We kill him now because he is confirmed scum, and I want to hit scum today.

[Umbrage]

Seriously? Confirmed scum and the lurker? That's it?

Actually, compared to the rest of the playerbase, that's not a bad list.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage - Your entire reasoning behind CK not being real is that 'THERES NO DOC BECAUSE I SAID SO'. Sure, that holds some ground but you are continuing to look at what this would also mean for InternetStranger, you can't use that reasoning to say CK is mafia but IS isn't. Either both are mafia due to your reasoning, or the reasoning is invalid - Which is it?

It's entirely possible, even likely that there's a doc. But in this case, CK3's role would create a follow-the-cop scenario.

[Umbrage]

@Umbrage:
How does CK's role work for scum? Mafia are worried above surviving above everything else. So, making scum need 2 votes to survive means that he will HAVE to claim it D1, no matter what. This means that scumbuddies will have to be VERY careful about saving him, since there's not really a chance Mr. Two-Votes-to-live will survive to LyLo, and RC says "look at the voting records" in one of his first posts, meaning that CK will have to rely mostly on town votes to save him, which probably won't come unless he fakeclaims something awesome (and awesome things are usually counterclaimed). And of all things, he claims vig. Now, as scum, that's a fucktarded fakeclaim. You can only go "herpderp I got blocked" for so long. The only way he would be able to get away with it is if scum get two kills everytime chesskid gets 2 votes, but that's ridiculously overpowered and stupid, considering our town counterbalance in that situation would be a rolecop power for two votes. In other words, chesskidscum means that he's quite literally bus fodder.

Maybe he's meant to die, he could have a suicide bomb ability, in which case we definitely don't want him living through the night. Maybe his buddy can secretly save him. Maybe he's lying, maybe the two votes just gives him an extra ability.

I haven't ruled out the fact that IS is scum. In fact, his last few posts have made it seem more likely to me. But nobody else seems to find him scummy, so I don't think he's the lynch today. At least he's doing more scumhunting than Fate and CK3 combined.

[Umbrage]

Sorry Tony. You didn't kiss Fate's ass, so you must die.

[Umbrage]

Unvote me IS, I've had quite enough of this bullshit.

Nobody has shown how it is even remotely possible CK3 is town. Nobody. I'll come back in endgame to laugh at your sorry asses.

[Umbrage]

I've said all I need to say. Won't be posting here anymore.

[Umbrage]

Hmm. Why am I dying, again?

I can still spare you. Just unvote chesskid3.

[Umbrage]

You trying to scare him out of realizing you're scum with gambling metaphors?

LOL FREEWILL

LOL

Wow. I actually agree with a Fate post.

[Umbrage]

The air's much nicer out here than in your ass, huh Umbrage?

Well, you would be the one to know.

Also: NO OUTSIDE BETS IN MAH MAFIA GAME.

[Umbrage]

Freewill, you've spent quite an amount of time this game pointing out how other players aren't "Thinking", yet when you're on the block now you're not attempting to state reads nor reasons behind your reads. Instead you're making trivial avatar bets and questioning Fishys claim (Which you say has a less than 20% chance of being fake).

I see no town-motivation behind any of those actions at all, if you're attempting to change someones mind into thinking you're town you're going to have to stop these antics and starting using some realistic reasoning.

Says the men saving confirmed scum...

[Umbrage]

We need a votecount.

Also, if Freewill saving Fate's sorry ass doesn't prove he's town, I don't know what will.

[Umbrage]

Hm. Looks like I'm the last chance for any unsaved.

Klazam, do you really value chesskid3's life over your own?

[Umbrage]

You seem to have misunderstoof or completely ignored the point we're trying to make Vezo. If there are currently 3 (Maximum) amount of players on the chopping block, all one of the players on the chopping block would have to do to survive is unvote the person they currently have voted to spare. This would cause 4 people to remain unspared upon the deadline giving mafia the choice of which three they would prefer to die in which case they could just save themselves.

The only real counter we have of this is the vig who would be able to just shoot anyone who would to this before they have a chance to cause more havoc tommorow, therefore it's pivotal to have players on Chesskid that are indeed town and not on the chopping block thus the need for you to change.

This is a very good point. If we lynch 3 and ANY are scum who are the only person saving an individual, they simply unvote and survive while lynching the person they were previously saving.

For what it's worth, it's not all that anti-town for a doomed town player who thinks he's saving scum to swap his vote over to a more town player at the deadline. Sort of a one-shot vengeful townie, but if a town player is doing that, they need to be VERY careful. They need to actually believe they're lynching scum.

I'd approach that with the same caution as I would as a VT claiming a cop with a guilty on someone. Yes, it could win the game if you're right, but you'd better be really damn sure of your read.

[Umbrage]

So Protoss is CK3's buddy? Probably, yeah.

[Umbrage]

Why the hell would I spare Protoss? He's scum.

Spare: Apok

[Umbrage]

You're not saved?

Spare: Freewill

[Umbrage]

Blah blah blah. I don't care. You're saving confirmed scum. That's enough for me.

[Umbrage]

Yeah, no.

[Umbrage]

Don't care. I'm not saving who you tell me to. Klazam is scummy. Not confirmed scum like CK3, but if you dumb-fucks are going to let him live out of Fate-fear, then the least I can do is throw a wrench in your plans and kill SOME scum today.

[Umbrage]

EVERYBODY SAYS THEY THINK CK3 IS TOWN.

THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE.

I HAVE PROVEN IT TO BE IMPOSSIBLE.

[Umbrage]

CK3 is confirmed scum. Have you even read the thread?

[Umbrage]

Fucking chesskid3.

[Umbrage]

Last game I ever play with him. I knew he was a VI, but I never thought he'd do shit like this.

[Umbrage]

Wait, he could be a Godfather... but that would mean we have a second scumteam since nobody counterclaimed vig. Fuck.

[Umbrage]

While we're at it, let's just have a party with ALL the dead people!!!

[Umbrage]

Guys, there were obviously aspects to chesskid3's role that he lied about or didn't feel like sharing with us. A Godfather that flips town is likely. There is no way the role he described would be in the game, it's broken.

The way I see it, we should kill one of Nacho or vezok today, that'll tell us if they're lying or not, and then the other one becomes confirmed town. REAL confirmed town, not vezok confirmed town. The alternative is to use IS' rolecop thingy.

I have a few suspicions, but want to wait a bit until I reveal all my cards... *poker face*

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, there's no such thing as a godfather that flips town, and if you believe he was a GF then who shot him? If you think he's mafia, do you really think he'd shoot Freewill as mafia, the person highly likely to be lynched? Come on, accept the reality, CK was town, end of. T

The only issue with your plan of lynching one of Vezo/Nacho is if we lynch one of them and they flip mason then the other becomes confirmed town meaning they're highly likely to die at night. If IS's innocent is on Vezok than it would clear Nacho by relation meaning, if Vezok is his innocent he needs to state so in his next post.

I have a few suspicions, but want to wait a bit until I reveal all my cards... *poker face*

Were you or were you not the person who was attacking me from holding back on stating my thoughts earlier in the game, now you're doing the same thing as I did?

...

OK, for starters, there could easily be two scum teams, because there isn't a sane scum that would not kill CK3 last night, town or scum. It's possible he was shot twice.

Secondly, there is no way that CK3's role was in this game, because it worked EXACTLY AS I PREDICTED: he gets killed N1. Either he was scum and something is screwy with the flip, or he's a lying little shit. Your argument is a strawman, you say it couldn't possibly be the FORMER, when it is my opinion that it is likely the LATTER.

I can't imagine this game wouldn't have a protective role of some sort. Besides, a mason without a partner is pretty much useless, and it brings the killing away from our remaining PRs. If the majority is against this idea though, we should just let IS check it out. But that means we'd have to give him extra spare vote today, not sure if this is the best course of action.

The main difference between you and me is that I have thoughts I want to back up with some in-thread evidence, instead of buying for time.

[Umbrage]

If you are going to lynch either of us I'm going to so laugh for the stupidity of this town at the end.

Are you seriously suggesting we treat you as confirmed town?

Show me one good reason to believe you are masons. Breadcrumbing doesn't count. Scum can breadcrumb just as easily as town.

[Umbrage]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think you're buddies. Just not pro-town ones.

[Umbrage]

There's a good chance the scumteam is Protoss/vezokpiraka/Nachomamma8. I still like the plan of killing either Nacho or vezok today, and go from there. If they're town, no big loss. If they're scum, we've got the game.

[Umbrage]

I know how you play this game, and judging from that, yes, no big loss if you die.

[Umbrage]

Jesus died this week, you heathen

spare: Fishy

1) Why are you sparing Fishy?

2) Doesn't Fishy die if he's spared at the end or the day?

[Umbrage]

For the record, there's no need to give IS two votes today for the record considering CKs death there is a high likelyhood of us not having a doctor at all, meaning that double-sparing him to gain an investigation will be useless with his upcoming death.

This is such scummy bullshit. Let me list the reasons why...

1) It assumes IS is town.

2) If it doesn't assume IS is town, then it sets him up for death tomorrow should he survive the night, because if he was town he would die. Which is WIFOM, and you can bet your ass scum will take advantage of it.

3) There is absolutely no proof we do not have a doctor. In fact, if you believe chesskid3 was telling the complete truth about his role, then the only possible way this set-up could survive is if there is a doc. chesskid3's role, as he told it, meant that he would draw the kill N1, guaranteed. The only way to make his role only slightly broken is to put a doc in the set-up.

4) You are just way too sure of yourself. Sure that IS is town. Sure that he'll draw the NK. Sure that there isn't a doc. These are things that have not been proven.

Umbrage, I'm not in the mood to argue CKs allignment with you anymore, especially considering he's already flipped town, just know that if you are indeed town I won't be joining a game with you again, the extent of your tunnelling is incredible.

OK, now you are either not reading, or deliberately trolling. I made it perfectly fucking clear that I think chesskid3 lied about his role.

Either he was scum and something is screwy with the flip, or he's a lying little shit. Your argument is a strawman, you say it couldn't possibly be the FORMER, when it is my opinion that it is likely the LATTER.

I say I think either A) he lied, or B) he's scum. You say B is false, therefore I am wrong. But you never mention A. You never admit the possibility that chesskid3 lied about his role.

That is a strawman.

I am not arguing CK3's alignment with you. I am saying he lied about his role, and there is a remote possibility that he was scum. His being town, does not mean he didn't lie. So kill the theatrics.

This doesn't seem right to me, there seems to be too many town-power roles that do nothing to prevent mafia cross-sparing, I honestly think a mass-claim to see if there's anything else in this game and which claims are more believable or not is the way to go. This would include Fishy fully-claiming.

TRANSLATION: We don't know who's stopping the mafia from winning this game immediately, so let's have everyone claim so the mafia know EXACTLY who to kill!!!!!!!!!!

That is the worst fucking idea I've seen all game.

And it brings up yet another hole in your argument above: if you think there is a town PR that stops the scum from cross-saving, and you think we should massclaim today, why the hell would you expect IS to get the kill? Seems to me the mafia would just kill whoever's stopping them from cross-saving and ride the train to victory!

We know this person is not IS.

ERGO HE WILL NOT BE NIGHTKILLED.

So we have contradiction, role fishing, and strawmanning all in one post. Yeah, Duplicity is dying today. No two ways about it.

[Umbrage]

This is such scummy bullshit. Let me list the reasons why...

1) It assumes IS is town.

2) If it doesn't assume IS is town, then it sets him up for death tomorrow should he survive the night, because if he was town he would die. Which is WIFOM, and you can bet your ass scum will take advantage of it.

3) There is absolutely no proof we do not have a doctor. In fact, if you believe chesskid3 was telling the complete truth about his role, then the only possible way this set-up could survive is if there is a doc. chesskid3's role, as he told it, meant that he would draw the kill N1, guaranteed. The only way to make his role only slightly broken is to put a doc in the set-up.

4) You are just way too sure of yourself. Sure that IS is town. Sure that he'll draw the NK. Sure that there isn't a doc. These are things that have not been proven.

1. If IS is mafia than not giving him two votes is a good thing as well, meaning there's no need to mention the possibly of him being mafia when discussing not giving him a second vote.
2. There's no such thing as setting someone up for a death that was already likely to occur, if mafia WIFOM and don't kill him that's perfectly fine it means we have someone that you seem to have a stronger-read on alive. No issue here.
3. Do you believe that there's a doctor, two masons, a vig and a cop? Really?
4. I'm not sure of anything in particular, but I believe not giving IS two votes today is the best way to progress.

1. If IS is mafia, then we force him into either clearing Nacho and vezok, or he lies and when we lynch the masons, we realize IS must be scum and we kill him. No way he can win.

2. Except that in your plan you make IS' role, possibly the most powerful role remaining in the game, utterly useless. What if there's a doctor? What if there's a DEPUTY? Didn't think of that, did you?

Besides, according to you, IS' death is not likely to occur, because you believe that there is someone stopping scum from crossvoting. So you should believe that scum will try and kill this person, not IS.

3. At this point, I'm not making any guesses about the set-up, because if CK3 told the truth about his role, then it is a horribly unbalanced set-up anyway.

4. Why? The only reason you could possibly have is to conserve votes. Which means that there's somebody you want to live through the day. Who would that be?

I am not arguing CK3's alignment with you. I am saying he lied about his role, and there is a remote possibility that he was scum. His being town, does not mean he didn't lie. So kill the theatrics.

He flipped town, I have no reason to believe a townie would lie about their role in a situation such as that, and I'm not in the mood to argue about something irrelevant to the game though, so lets drop CKs allignment until post-game.

You're the one that keeps bringing up the alignment. If it's so goddamn awful to have to talk with me, why do you keep insisting I'm wrong?

You want a BIG FUCKING SHOW!!!!!!!! You want to let everyone know that Umbrage is SOOOOO BAD!!!!!!!!

Even if it's over a pathetically inconsequential matter.

TRANSLATION: We don't know who's stopping the mafia from winning this game immediately, so let's have everyone claim so the mafia know EXACTLY who to kill!!!!!!!!!!

Simply put, we have multiple power-role claims already, mafia already know they're going to shoot one of them, having other people claim will do nothing other than give us information about what the setup entails and increases the likelyhood we can understand Fishys role.

No, they wouldn't. They would kill the most powerful role out there. And you want to paint them a big fucking target.

I forgot to address this, if there is indeed a town role that has the ability to prevent mafia cross-sparing it would have the be nightkill-immune, otherwise the death of this role on night one would mean that mafia would become unstoppable and the game would be broken meaning if such a role exists there would be no risk in it claiming.

If there is no risk in claiming, why haven't they claimed already? We've all been wondering since the get-go: 'what is stopping the mafia from cross-sparing?' Why didn't somebody say "I'm doing it, but I'm NK proof so don't worry"?

Why wouldn't they?

Because if this role exists, it isn't NK-proof.

So massclaiming is still a stupid, scummy idea.

@ Internet Stranger: Are you fucking stupid? We don't have enough votes to spare everyone AND give you two votes. Somebody's got to die, and I nominate Duplicity for that job. He should've died yesterday.

[Umbrage]

I don't think you guys understand.

You can't kill us because we will cross spare to infinity. If we were scum don't you think the game should have ended right now?
I suggest sparing everyone who is not umbrage, apok, duplicity or tony.

The way tomorrow you have me , nacho, IS and fishy at the end.

I and nacho are confirmed. You can go and figure out whatever you want but there is no sane mod that would put two scums that can only be nightkilled.
Is is a rolecop. There is no way he is lying about that.
Fishy is town. You can't kill a scum treestump.

Tomorrow if either of us die it's LyLo with three persons. Fishy confirmed, me, or nacho confirmed( because the scum can only kill us) and IS who is going to be unconfirmed.

Then the game ends. Simple enough plan for you dumbfucks to respect?

Still waiting for a single reason to make me think you are not scum.

[Umbrage]

Explain to me how the inclusion of a particular role in this setup that prevents cross-sparing could possibly not be kill-immune, their death N1 would be a wasted and pointless game.

I don't know. Personally, I don't think such a role exists, NK-immune or not.

But YOU think a role exists.

Fine.

This role that YOU say exists CANNOT be NK-immune, or they would've claimed.

Ergo, if this role does exist, it is not NK-immune.

Why don't YOU explain how this role can possibly exist, since YOU brought it up?

[Umbrage]

Why does it have to be NK-immune?

My strongest scum read right now is you. Fishy was a scum read of mine, but if he is scum, he must be scum with IS, and IS looks town to me.

[Umbrage]

Alright, such a role would have to be NK-immune.

But if it was NK-immune, the player would've claimed.

Ergo, the role cannot be NK-immune.

Ergo, the role doesn't exist.

Ergo, there is no benefit to massclaiming today.

[Umbrage]

Given the fact that IS's investigation was on Fishy, and that we have another town-power role stated I can agree the benefits of mass-claiming are reduced, however:

Given that we now have: A Vig/Governor claim, A Rolecop claim, 2 Mason claims, A Treestump claim.
I highly doubt there's a doctor in the setup if all of this claims are real, if we do indeed have a doctor claim I'm more likely to believe that one of the claims above are fake, therefore by mass-claiming I'm able to better determine where the maifa lie.

If a doctor claim occurs we can safely put a second vote on IS and have him investigate tonight as well as knowing that one of the above claims is likely fake. If no doctor claims we know that IS is likely dead tonight thus having no need to place a second vote on him.

TRANSLATION: Everyone should claim so I know exactly who to kill tonight!

[Umbrage]

Spare: Apokalyptika

My strongest town read.

Here is the plan:

Apok, spare Nacho.

Nacho, spare IS.

IS, spare Tony.

Tony, spare Umbrage.

vezok, spare IS.

This will kill Duplicity and vezok.

If vezok is town, we will go into the night with TWO confirmed town: Fishy and Nacho. This guarantees us at least one confirmed town tomorrow. IS will investigate one of: me, Apok, Tony. If he gets it right he is ANOTHER confirmed town, if he gets it wrong, we kill him and WIN. If vezok is scum, we kill Nacho tomorrow and WIN.

Vezok, if you are town, there is no reason not to go along with this plan. It guarantees a town win. If there is an SK, then there is a good chance BOTH you and Nacho will die tonight, and we will be left with nothing. Your plan does not account for that. Mine does.

[Umbrage]

MASSCLAIM GIVES THE SCUM A FUCKING KILL LIST.

WE ARE NOT MASSCLAIMING.

THE SCUM WILL KILL OUR DOCTOR, OR OTHER MOST POWERFUL PR.

TOWN LOSES.

[Umbrage]

YOUR PLAN DOESN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE FACT THAT IS COULD BE SCUM.

MINE DOES.

MINE > YOURS

MINE = TOWN

YOURS = SCUM

[Umbrage]

This means tommorow the following people would be alive:
IS, P4, Vezo, Nacho, Fishy.

INTERNET IS SCUM.

INTERNET SAYS NACHO AND VEZOK ARE SCUM.

WE KILL NACHO AND VEZOK.

SCUM WINS.

[Umbrage]

SCUM DON'T KNOW IF THERE IS A DOC.

THEREFORE SCUM WON'T KILL HIM FOR FEAR OF A PROTECT.

WIFOM IS GOOD FOR SCUM.

YOUR PLAN TAKES THAT AWAY AND TELLS SCUM EXACTLY WHO TO KILL.

[Umbrage]

YES I HAVE A TOWN READ ON HIM.

BUT I COULD BE WRONG.

YOU COULD BE WRONG.

MY PLAN TAKES THAT INTO ACCOUNT.

MY PLAN LEAVES NOTHING TO CHANCE.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage, scum will shoot him regardless if they think there's a doctor or not, it's the only chance they have in winning.

If there's a doctor then yes we automatic win, but that's the same thing as doctor claiming out loud now which would also be automatic win.
If there's no doctor, he dies and we've wasted a second spare vote on him.

No. Because by killing vezok, we learn Nacho's alignment. We either have confirmed town, or confirmed scum. If he's confirmed town, then scum will have to kill him, because confirmed town is more dangerous than any PR. Therefore IS lives another night, and we get another investigation.

I'm attempting to say that there's no fucking reason to put a second vote on IS because I believe the likelyhood of him dying tonight is massive, I've said that the entire fucking day. That's why I want a mass-claim, if there's a doctor claim I would happily place my spare vote on him and accept death to what I believe would be an almost automatic win. If there's no doctor claim then we don't waste a fucking spare vote on something useless.

There is only one reason you would want to conserve spare votes: you want to make sure somebody lives through the day. Who?

Also I won't do with the plan. I want to live till the end. If I am not alive at the end my subconscius doesn't think that we won.

Also if you kill one of either me or nacho scum kills the other at night.

Are you town?

If you are town, it doesn't matter if you die. You still win with the town.

Right now, you two are pretty much unlynchable. This means that if you are town, you will get the NK. If there is a Serial Killer, then there is a very good chance that you will BOTH die in one night.

I know it seems counter-intuitive. But if you are town, this will lead to a win.

When you die, Nacho becomes confirmed town. This means scum have the following choice:

A) Kill Nacho and let IS live another night, which means he gets another investigation and we get another confirmed town.

B) Kill IS and let confirmed town Nacho live for tomorrow.

Either way, we end up with confirmed town tomorrow.

If we don't kill you, then IS will die, and we get no confirmed town.

If you are town, then killing either you or Nacho today gives you the best chance of winning.

You just have to spare IS.

Here is the plan:

Apok, spare Nacho.

Nacho, spare IS.

IS, spare Tony.

Tony, spare Umbrage.

vezok, spare IS.

This is the best plan to get a town win.

[Umbrage]

You seem to be highly of the opinion that there is a doctor, wouldn't IS checking Vezo/Nacho therefore be more optimal?

That's not needed. Killing one of them confirms the other. IS can confirm himself and possibly somebody else. This gives the scum a really nasty piece of WIFOM of whom to kill, doctor or no.

had/have multiple town-reads, so yes after I finish rethinking through them I'm sure there will be somebody that I want to assure lives.

And what if there isn't? What if there are two people you want to kill? Then you might as well give IS a spare vote. You must have a reason for denying him the vote NOW. What is it?

Your plan completly ignores the fact that mafia don't have to follow through with it, considering the vig seems to be dead the risks of them doing their own thing is close to minimal.

The only people who would have any reason to go against the plan are scum. We simply kill them. Example: you are resisting the plan, so I make sure you are not part of the plan.

Your argument is basically "scum will screw it up". But there is nothing scum can do to destroy the plan. If IS is scum, we are covered. If Nacho and vezok are scum, we are covered. There are no holes.

You're just fearmongering. Try and point out specific ways the plan can fail. Because this isn't pro-town. Instead of addressing the problems and creating a solution that benefits town, your answer is 'why bother?'. Is that because the only way you can win as scum is by shooting down this plan before it takes off?

[Umbrage]

Lets assume for a second that we follow your plan and lynch Vezo and msylnch with both of us flipping town. If there's no doctor IS dies tonight leaving Nacho and Fishy alive as clears with you, Tony and Apok as unclear, what do you do then?

Scumhunt. There are likely two scum left. With two clear, those are excellent odds. And keep in mind: what you just gave is a worst-case scenario with only VTs left. If there's a deputy, we have another confirmed. If there's a doctor, we're sitting quite prettily.

This will be decided upon finalization of my reads.

So you don't want IS to get a second spare vote, but you don't even know WHY you don't want him to get the second spare vote? Bullshit.

You want me to address the problems then sure I will. If Vezo and Nacho are scum, neither of them are going to be okay with the other one dying, both of them will cross-spare meaning that the plan has already failed. If Vezo and Nacho are town, neither of them are going to be okay with someone they know is town for sure dying, both of them will cross-spare meaning that the plan has failed already.

See the issue now?

I'm attempting to work out what mafias hinderance is, I have been for a long time and no one is attempting to assist me. There has to be something put in place to prevent this from happening and instead of bickering with me or attempting to ignore what I am saying I would appreciate if you discuss this with me logically.

Why? Why is it so important that you figure this out? Until we get a game over, there is obviously something preventing scum from doing this. I'm not worried about it. Nobody else is worried about it. WHY IS FINDING THE MECHANIC THAT STOPS SCUM CROSS-SPARING SO IMPORTANT TO YOU?

We aren't dying. We are town.

We don't care if you don't believe us. There is nothing you can do to kill us.

You can trust us or argue with us. The problem is: You can't kill us.

No, you can be killed.

Something is stopping the scum from cross-sparing.

So you can bet your ass that same thing will stop you from cross-sparing.

Maybe it's another vig, maybe it's an SK, I have no idea.

But you don't know either.

As I said, there's a chance you will both be dead by tomorrow.

Are you town?

If you are town, only one thing matters: TOWN WINNING.

My plan gives the best chance of that happening.

And if you go against that plan, any sane vig will kill you.

You can't be lynched.

But you can be endgamed.

[Umbrage]

A deputy is someone who gets the results of a cop when the cop dies. If we have one then IS' death doesn't matter, we should still give him the extra spare vote.

I don't want him to get a second spare vote because I believe he's highly likely to die tonight, I've said this so fucking many times.

WHY DOES IT MATTER? If we have an extra spare vote, WHY NOT GIVE IT TO HIM? The only way we could run out of spare votes is if we try to spare EVERYONE. You're saying you want a fucking NO-LYNCH?

Simple. The only way to win is to lynch (Not spare) mafia, this can't be done if they just save each other, therefore I need to know how to stop them saving each other if I want them to die.

Yeah, right.

How would YOU be able to stop them?

Lying scum.

Die.

[Umbrage]

WHAT MAKES YOU SO SURE IT'S SOMETHING YOU CAN CONTROL?

If we massclaim, and there is a vig or something, what are you going to do? Go "uh, cool, hit scum dude"? IT IS A WASTE OF TIME.

Whoever or whatever is stopping the scum from winning, they seem to be doing an OK job of it. Don't mess with a good thing. Don't tell scum who to kill.

[Umbrage]

Why? CK3 wasn't NK-immune.

I get the feeling that last remark was some sort of softclaim, out with it.

[Umbrage]

Then there must be something else stopping them, and it's clearly working. So why do you want to know what it is?

The question seems pointless, I prefer not to answer.

[Umbrage]

I want to know becuase it would give me a better read of both Nacho and Vezo.

Yesterday they both spared each other and neither of them were placed on the block nor did either of them die. Therefore the prevention is not "Mafia can't spare mafia" if they're both mafia. I see it being highly unlikely that there's a town-role that prevents them from cross-sparing at the moment, therefore I'm attempting to work out what would do so if they're mafia, right now I'm failing to see anything therefore my slight-town read on both of them.

Then that brings up the issue of if they're town, who's mafia? In which case I'm close to clueless. I have a strong town-read on Apok due to her interactions with TheMask yesterday. I believe IS is dumb, but town nevertheless and therefore Fishy is town via relation. That leaves on you and Tony and I see you both as an unlikely scum-team.

Still not seeing my main issue yet?

Which is a big part of the reason why you're dying today. From my POV, it's most likely either Nacho/vezok or you and Apok/Tony. With my plan, we kill two birds with one stone. If you both flip town, and IS dies and flips town, then we have confirmed town Nacho, confirmed town Fishy, and with two scum left we have a 2/3 chance of hitting scum, then a 1/2 chance of hitting the other scum next day, which are pretty good odds for a worst-case scenario when you don't factor in any remaining PRs. I doubt it will come to that, though, most likely either you or Vezok will flip scum, or IS will survive for no explained reason and then we'll know who to kill.

Here is the plan:

Apok, spare Nacho.

Nacho, spare IS.

IS, spare Tony.

Tony, spare Umbrage.

vezok, spare IS.

Everyone still needs to do this. Vezok and Nacho, you can decide among yourselves who dies today, I don't care.

[Umbrage]

If Vezok and Nacho are scum, then there is something stopping them from cross-sparing every day. The mod himself has said so. Don't worry.

[Umbrage]

^ again, not taking into account the possibility that IS is scum.

[Umbrage]

Nacho and vezok have to be scum. There is no excuse for them not allow town the best chance of winning.

[Umbrage]

What the hell happened to this game?

[Umbrage]

What the hell happened to this game?

Simple. This game was only ever really played by IS, You, CK, Fate and myself. Fate and CK are dead. IS is waiting for responses from other players and you and IS have almost pissed me of to the point where I can't be fucked to help anymore, plus G still hasn't given me his reads.

You've NEVER bothered to help. All you've done is whine about a) massclaiming and b) giving IS a spare vote, and when I called you for having ZERO logic to support either argument, you threw a hissy fit.

I still see absolutely no reason to believe vezok and Nacho are masons instead of scum. Scum can breadclaim too, and it's more likely when the claim is subtle, so nobody calls them out on it.

Bottom line, I'm not losing to the scum who claimed masons.

Killing one of them today is best for both the town and the masons. If there are two more killing roles, there's a good chance both masons will be wiped out.

[Umbrage]

If we give IS and investigation we have to kill two guys.

No, we don't. Fishy doesn't need a vote.

Nacho, how about you actually take the time to read my ISO. Also, while you're at it read this game: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 62&start=0
You'll notice Umbrages rage and illogical rants are something he does as mafia therefore I'd like for you to explain your town-read on him considering the fact he's my only FoS at the moment.

Null tell. I rage in almost all my games.

The one thing I DID do in that game (where you were scum with me) was distract the town by proposing ridiculous suggestions for the day, like getting a PR to claim.

Hm... you seem to be doing the exact same thing.

And you wanted a massclaim in that game too...

[Umbrage]

The one thing I DID do in that game (where you were scum with me) was distract the town by proposing ridiculous suggestions for the day,

Like killing one claimed mason to confirm the other?
No, that's not ridiculous at all >.>

Here's my reasoning for one of you dying:

Right now, Fishy is the one confirmed townie. If neither of you die, scum will likely kill him. But if one of you dies, then we have a guaranteed confirmed townie going into tomorrow.

The last thing we need is for people to doubt you. Because you do look very suspicious, town or scum, there's a good chance that you'll be killed in lylo, and then it's game over.

There's still the chance of a second killing role, making it possible, even likely that you will both die tonight.

Scum might decide to kill IS instead of Fishy or the mason pair. That removes our most valuable role, and leave no other way for you two to become confirmed.

Please, do what's best for town.

[Umbrage]

Fishy dying would benefit town (if he can even be killed, I don't think tree stump roles can usually be killed). If he's town and we get to 3 players it's an automatic loss. Fishy has even mentioned that we can only really afford to let one player die today.

The masons obviously aren't dying. Would prefer letting tony or umbrage die today, we're pretty confident in Apok being town right now. As a matter of fact,

spare: apok

G.

Wha... wha...

How in the hell does Fishy's death benefit town? He's confirmed town! Even if he doesn't count for lylo purposes, why would you want him dead?

More of Duplicity's statements without logic.

Since he's likely not moving from Apok...

Duplicity spare Apok - DONE
Apok spare Nacho - DONE
Nacho spare IS
IS spare Tony
Tony spare Umbrage
Umbrage spare IS

We need a votecount...

[Umbrage]

Thought I did...

Unless there's that second killing role that you're talking about, then you kill one of us during the day, and the second killing role kills the other mason during the night, meaning no confirmed townie going into tomorrow.

If there is a second scum faction, chances are both factions know about the other one. So if this is the case, then they will both aim for the masons with a 50/50 chance they wipe them both out. But if there's only one mason, it creates confusion. The best kill isn't clear, increasing the chances they aim for the same person.

If I make it into LyLo, then two things will occur:
1) Vezok will be dead, meaning that I'm confirmed. I won't die.
2) Vezok will be alive, meaning that I'm cross sparing with him. I won't die.

You forgot 3) The thing that stops the mafia from cross-sparing kicks in and bites you in the ass.

If they decide to kill IS instead of fishy or the mason pair, then we have 3 confirmed town vs 3 non-confirmed town. I'd say our chances would be pretty good in that situation.

You're forgetting that IS has the ability to confirm townies, and you and vezok are not confirmed until one of you dies.

[Umbrage]

Oh so now my raging is a null tell Duplicity?

[Umbrage]

That plan doesn't take into account a Nacho/vezok scum pair.

I think Fishy is town, but yeah, this.

[Umbrage]

Spare: Internet Stranger

[Umbrage]

Fuck it.

I'm sick and tired of this bullshit.

Nacho and vezok have to be scum. Only scum would try and do something so deliberately anti-town. I've been shouting this for ages: TOWN WINS IF YOU SACRIFICE YOURSELF!!!

BUT NO, YOU HAVE TO PULL THIS "I DONT WANNA DIE" CRAP.

FINE.

Town's best shot is if Duplicity and vezok die today. I'm sure of it. And I'm willing to sacrifice myself in order for that to happen.

I'm the role Duplicity's been looking for.

I became the Vig last night.

I don't know whether I'm a pre-chosen secret backup, or a random VT chosen for this. As far as I know, I don't have CK3's two-vote restriction. I wouldn't pass up an extra vote if it was offered, though.

All I know is that if Nacho doesn't unspare vezok, or vice versa, I WILL KILL VEZOK TONIGHT.

THAT MEANS IF THEY ARE TOWN, SCUM WILL KILL NACHO.

SAY GOODBYE TO YOUR MASONS.

It's your move, Nacho. Either you can give up your useless buddy and become CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN WHILE I GET THE NK, or you can die tonight with your miserable partner in STUPIDITY.

Nacho spares Apok
IS spares Tony
Tony spares IS

Duplicity and vezok die.

TOWN WINS.

You can all whine about how I'm such a giant asshole now.

[Umbrage]

Deal. If Nacho cooperates, I'll take out Apok.

[Umbrage]

You underestimate me, vezok. Look, after this game is over you can whine all you want about my play.

But, like Duplicity, I believe Apok and Tony are unlikely to be scum.

Unlike him, I believe Fishy and IS are town.

That means that by lynching you and Duplicity, we WILL hit scum. I'm sure of it. IS can check out either Tony or Apok, and then we're are sitting pretty!

As I said before, I don't care who dies. vezok, you can unvote too. Remember, first to unvote their partner gets a prize: survival! Now sell out your buddy before he does the same to you!

[Umbrage]

YOU KNOW ME VEZOK. DO I STRIKE YOU AS THE KIND OF PERSON WHO BLUFFS?

If you and Duplicity die and THROUGH SOME MIRACLE flip town, I will kill Apok, Tony, whoever the hell you want. Then, with IS' role, a town victory is practically guaranteed.

Fishy is town. Treestump is a town role. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I see NO evidence that he does not count for endgame purposes.

So: if you're not scum, and Duplicity's not scum, who do you think the scum are?

Umbrage, I'd appreciate if you take this question seriously.

If Vezo and I both flip town which to be honest is what's going to occur who do you think the mafia pair would be?

Best guess? Tony and Apok. But I'll be dead tonight anyway, so it's out of my hands.

[Umbrage]

Read Vezos fucking post, how much more obvious does it have to be that there are fucking masons and both are town.

I still have not seen any evidence of that. And OH LOOKE THEY READ THE SAME WEBSITE isn't evidence.

[Umbrage]

Best guess? Tony and Apok. But I'll be dead tonight anyway, so it's out of my hands.

Read this and this it should be enough proof that Tony+Apok aren't a scum-team.

So I'm going to ask you again, when both Vezo and I flip town who is scum?

I've answered the question. Now it's your turn. If you both flip town, who do you think is scum?

When I die and flip town will you promise to shoot who G and I decide upon, no questions asked. If so then I have no problem dying today.

Lets look at a scenario. Three way lylo. Mafia, Town Fishy and Townie #2.
Mafia no spares. Fishy can't spare, doesn't have the ability to do so. Townie #2 can either spare Town Fishy or the mafia. Regardless of which occur mafia win.

Townie and Scum die. Fishy is left alive. Town wins.

@ Duplicity: I'm really surprised that you are going along with IS' plan seeing as how it does NOT take into account an IS/Fishy team, which you have said is likely.

Besides, you are missing a very important point: TONY HAS NOT CLAIMED.

By killing him today, we miss out on a potential doctor protect, or other beneficial PR.

vezok, on the other hand, is a safer kill. The less info we give scum, the better.

Duplicity and vezok die. I vig Tony. Everybody's happy.

THE TIME FOR ARGUING IS OVER. THE TIME FOR KILLING HAS BEGUN.

[Umbrage]

Not liking how Duplicity is assuming vezok/Nacho are town. They are UNCONFIRMED. Only through death can one of them become CONFIRMED.

[Umbrage]

QUESTION: Why do you believe Nacho and vezok when they say they're masons, but you do not believe IS when he says Fishy has a TOWN-ONLY ROLE?

[Umbrage]

OK.

Hold on to your hat.

I have found a plan that should make EVERYBODY happy!

Now, here's what we know:

Nacho and vezok are scum with each other or both are town.

Fishy and IS are scum with each other or both are town.

THEREFORE:

Duplicity and vezok are lynched today.

If the scum team is Nacho/vezok, then vezok will flip scum, I will vig Nacho, and it's game over.

If Duplicity is scum, I will kill Apok, his most likely buddy.

If Apok flips town, we lynch Tony, and it's game over.

If neither of vezok or Duplicity are scum, I kill Fishy.

If Fishy is scum, we lynch IS, and it's game over.

The only possibility that this does NOT take into account is Apok/Tony, and we've all agreed they are unlikely to be the scum.

ARE WE AGREED?

[Umbrage]

Fishy and IS are scum with each other or both are town.

Wrong.

Fishy is scum with IS or Fishy is town. IS can be scum with Tony while Fishy is still town.

I've said it multiple times already, I'm not letting Vezo/Nacho die when they're incredibly obviously masons, I'll go into my reasoning behind why I'm so sure later. Tony needs to die today he really does, if he dies and flips mafia IS becomes confirmed mafia. If he dies and flips town Apok essentially becomes clear.

I'm about to drift of to sleep. I'll elaborate in the morning.

BULLFUCKINGSHIT.

WHY WOULD SCUM SAY FISHY HAD A TOWN-ONLY ROLE?

IT MAKES NO SENSE.

SCUM DO NOT WANT TO CONFIRM TOWNIES.

AND YES TREESTUMP IS A TOWN-ONLY ROLE.

I CHALLENGE YOU TO FIND ONE GAME WITH A SCUM TREESTUMP.

AND YOU'RE WRONG ABOUT VEZOK.

HE'S DYING TODAY, OR I VIG HIM AND LET SCUM KILL NACHO.

THEN YOU'RE FUCKED.

I'M CALLING THE SHOTS AROUND HERE NOW.

I'M THROWING YOU A BONE BY OFFERING TO VIG FISHY.

YOU CAN EITHER SAY THANK YOU AND DIE LIKE A GOOD SCUM, OR YOU CAN WHINE AND GET NOTHING.

YOUR CALL.

[Umbrage]

No. I want scum lynched. I don't want this fucked up because there's a scum doctor or BP or some other fucking thing we don't know about.

Duplicity and vezok die today, that's not debatable. The only choice you lot have in this is who I use my NK ability on.

[Umbrage]

I don't die.

You vig me if nobody flips scum today and lose us the game. Or maybe you will think a little then figure that I and nacho can't be scum.

Yes, you can be scum.

If Nacho doesn't unvote you, or vice versa, I promise I WILL VIG YOU.

Which means, if you are town by some miracle, scum will kill Nacho and THEN town will lose.

I'm done fucking around. You two have done nothing pro-town this entire game. Now I'm supposed to believe you're masons when I only have your word for it? No thanks.

You don't seem to understand that you have absolutely no power here.

I do.

Either you let yourself die and Nacho becomes confirmed town, and believe me he will live to tomorrow because I'm taking the NK tonight, or I take out your scummy ass with my dying breath.

Either way, if you two are scum, the game is over. You might as well surrender yourselves now.

If you are town, then one way leads to certain victory. The other leads to certain failure. Now it's time for you to be useful and die.

[Umbrage]

WE KILL DUPLICITY, THEY FLIP TOWN, I VIG TONY, HE FLIPS TOWN. MEANWHILE SCUM KILL ME.

WE ARE LEFT WITH NO CONFIRMED TOWNIES.

WE HAVE NO FUCKING LEADS.

WE HAVE NO EXTRA VIG KILLS.

MY PLAN GIVES US:

EITHER YOU OR NACHO AS CONFIRMED TOWN.

IS AND HIS SUPER ABILITY AS CONFIRMED TOWN.

THINK ABOUT IT.

IF FISHY IS SCUM WITH IS, WE WIN.

IF YOU ARE SCUM WITH NACHO, WE STILL WIN.

SCUM HAVE TO KILL ME TONIGHT, WHICH MEANS IF DUPLICITY IS SCUM, MY PLAN MEANS WE GET YOU-TOWN, IS-TOWN, AND APOK/TONY-TOWN BECAUSE OF IS' ABILITY.

UNLESS YOU THINK TONY AND APOK ARE SCUM TOGETHER, WHICH EVERYONE AGREES IS RIDICULOUS, THERE IS NO REASON TO NOT UNVOTE NACHO THIS FUCKING MINUTE.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage. Listen here.

If Vezo and Nacho were mafia they obviously wouldn't unspare each other, therefore if they're scum you'd have to NK them, correct?
If Vezo and Nacho are town which they are, they obviously wouldn't unspare each other becuase they know for a fact the other one of them is town and want mafia to die. In other words. Nacho and Vezo aren't going to follow through with your stupid plan. The scum is either IS/Fishy or IS/Tony.

Fucking lynch Tony and Me.

If Tony flips scum, game over his partner has to be Apok or IS, you shoot IS at night autowin. No complains.
If I flip scum, which I won't, my partner would have to be Apok or IS, you shoot IS at night autowin. No complaints.

If Tony and I both flip town the only partnerships left are:

1. IS/Apok - This isn't it, fairly positive on that.
2. IS/Fishy - If Tony flips town this is it.
3. Nacho/Vezo - I would bet my life this isn't the case.

Meaning, if both Tony and I flip town you shoot either IS becuase he's in 1 and 2 or you shoot Nacho and Vezo.

In other fucking words. You have three shots to win the game.

1. The lynch on me, if I'm mafia which I'm not you autowin.
2. The lynch on Tony, if he's mafia you autowin.
3. The vig shot on either IS or Vezo tonight, if you shoot right it's autowin.

So stop being a fucking moron, please.

THEY WILL UNSPARE EACH OTHER IF TOWN, BECAUSE IT GUARANTEES A TOWN WIN.

POINT OUT HOW MY PLAN FAILS MR. APOK AND TONY CAN'T BE SCUM.

I DON'T WANT TO FUCK AROUND WITH MAFIA DOCS AND ROLEBLOCKERS AND WHATEVER ELSE THIS FUCKED UP GAME HAS IN STORE FOR US.

I WANT EITHER VEZOK OR NACHO DEAD.

NOW.

I'M DEALING WITH YOUR FISHY/IS FEARS. THE LEAST YOU CAN DO IS DEAL WITH MY VEZOK/NACHO FEARS.

[Umbrage]

I notice that whenever Duplicity is asked WHY he believes vezok and Nacho to be town, he starts pouting.

[Umbrage]

At this point, I think we'll all agree that:

Nacho and vezok are both scum or both town.

Fishy and IS are both scum or both town.

Apok and Tony are not scum together.

This leaves us the following scum teams:

Nacho and vezok

Fishy and IS

Duplicity and Tony/Apok

By killing Duplicity and either Nacho or vezok, we eliminate two of the above.

By vigging Fishy we remove the final team.

If Duplicity flips scum, IS' role tells us whether the last scum is Tony or Apok.

Fishy has to be vigged, not lynched. This means that we have to lynch either vezok or Nacho today, since I'll only have one shot before I'm killed and it has to go to Fishy.

The only team that this plan does not cover is Apok and Tony, and I believe we've established that they are the least likely team.

[Umbrage]

NO.

IS CAN NOT BE SCUM WITH TONY, BECAUSE HE WOULD NOT HAVE CLEARED FISHY.

I DON'T WANT TO TAKE THE CHANCE THAT THE SCUM HAVE A DOCTOR.

THAT IS WHY I VIG FISHY.

BECAUSE IS CAN'T BE A DOCTOR, OR HE WOULD'NT HAVE CLAIMED ROLE COP.

IF HE'S SCUM, HE'S ROLE COP SCUM.

WHY WOULD HE CLAIM ANYTHING ELSE?

[Umbrage]

IS, if Vezo/Nacho are scum this plan leads to automatic win. Learn to read.

NOT IF THERE IS A SCUM DOCTOR.

NOT IF THERE IS A BULLETPROOF GODFATHER.

I DON'T WANT TO BET THE GAME ON MY KILL GOING THROUGH.

BECAUSE THEN NACHO AND VEZOK LIVE AND I DIE AND YOU GO DUH WELL THEYRE MASONS.

AND TOWN LOSES.

I'M DONE WITH ARGUING.

I'M DONE FUCKING AROUND.

I PROPOSE A PLAN THAT ENSURES A TOWN WIN.

YOU SPEW BULLSHIT.

SO I FUCKING CLAIM, ENSURING MY DEATH TONIGHT.

YOU STILL COMPLAIN.

I CHANGE THE PLAN TO SUIT YOUR WISHES.

YOU STILL WHINE AND BULLSHIT.

NEVER A THANK YOU UMBRAGE.

I AM DYING FOR THE TOWN.

ALL I ASK IS THAT YOU PUT FORTH THE SAME FUCKING EFFORT.

BUT NO.

YOU SIT ON YOUR ASS AND PULL OUT BULLSHIT SCUMTEAMS LIKE IS/TONY

DESPITE THE FACT THAT IS TRIED TO KILL TONY YESTERDAY

.

WELL, I'M DONE NOW.

EITHER I GET THE LYNCH I WANT, OR I TAKE MATTERS INTO MY OWN HANDS.

THIS DOES NOT END WITH A COMPROMISE.

THIS ENDS WITH YOU CAVING IN.

[Umbrage]

OH NOES NOW I'M A FAG?

Big whoop.

YES, logically, there is no doctor or BP. But this setup threw logic out the window when it made a role that is GUARANTEED TO DIE NIGHT 1.

I'M TAKING NO CHANCES.

[Umbrage]

AND I SUPPOSE LYNCHING IS BECAUSE HE MIGHT BE SCUM WHO CONFIRMED A TOWNIE MAKES PERFECT SENSE?

[Umbrage]

He claimed role cop. He could've said he couldn't pick up alignment. He could've given a role unspecific to any alignment. Or, he could've not claimed at all. That would have been the smart move. Because that's a really stupid thing to do as scum. It's dumb to fake a cop, either you get yourself lynched or you confirm a bunch of townies. He had absolutely no reason to claim. He had no reason to clear Fishy.

Fine, I could see him being scum with Fishy, OK? But TONY? He came way to close to killing him yesterday. Not to mention that whenever you put out a plan that says Tony dies, IS jumps all over it.

[Umbrage]

I can agree claiming cop as scum is bad, but he claimed cop in an attempt to throw dirt at CK to get him lynched, I can see scum motivation behind that.

How the hell does that make sense? 'CK3 can't be a vig because I'm a cop'? If you're talking about him proposing to investigate CK3, well that's moot, since if scum, HE KILLED CK3.

[Umbrage]

That is still a pretty stupid idea. Why would risk exposing himself to lynch CK3 instead of just blowing him away? And then why would he blow him away anyway?

I call shitty logic.

[Umbrage]

Someone who's been playing as long as IS should know better than to willingly claim Cop as scum. Out of all the ways to try and get CK3 lynched, he chooses that? No. I don't buy it. I think you're scum trying anything to save yourself before my Überplan kicks into effect.

And there's only one R in Marathon.

[Umbrage]

Umbrage: IS or Fishy needs to either die today or tonight. One of the two, which one is your choice but one of the two better occur.

KISS MY ASS.

YOU DON'T GET TO MAKE DEMANDS.

I MAKE THEM.

I TRIED PLAYING NICE, I GOT ATTITUDE.

I DON'T LIKE ATTITUDE.

MAYBE WHEN I SINGLE-HANDILY WIN THIS GAME, YOU'LL BE SINGING A DIFFERENT TUNE.

I'M NOT UNVOTE ANYONE.

EITHER VEZOK OR NACHO IS GOING TO SPARE TONY.

OTHERWISE I VIG VEZOK, SCUM KILL NACHO, AND SO MUCH FOR YOUR PRECIOUS PRS.

MASONS ARE ONLY VALUABLE IF ONE DIES.

THIS IS FUCKING MAFIA 101.

LEARN TO PLAY BEFORE YOU SIGN UP FOR A REAL GAME.

[Umbrage]

@Umbrage: your threats really don't have any sway. If a mason does as you say, they'll both be dead tomorrow, along with Duplicity and whoever you vig. If they don't, at least one of them will be dead tomorrow, along with Duplicity and TM. Hardly a worse position.

If you are going to kill a mason, don't be predictable in which it is. That is pure and undiluted madness - may as well have a 50% chance of a crosskill if scum try to kill a mason.

No. I'm getting the NK tonight, that's a given. Think before you type.

And the whole POINT is that scum kill the other mason. That way, if they don't go along with my FOOLPROOF plan, they must be scum.

I've made up my mind. Work with me and get a town win, otherwise you leave me no choice.

[Umbrage]

This is honestly pathetic to observe.

Umbrage. You say I'm mafia thus you want me dead. I accept the death because I know that it'll be in the best interest of the town in the end. So please, for the love of god shoot IS or Fishy when I flip town, of the two you can pick which one.

Also Umbrage, if you thought I was mafia wouldn't you be attempting to get someone else to spare vote you because you'd be worried I would unspare at the last second causing you to die? Seriously, the fact I'm telling you this right now should be enough proof that I'm town and that IS needs to die.

If you are scum, then Nacho and vezok are town.

Therefore you want me alive to vig vezok while your buddy kills Nacho.

It won't work though, because the second you flip both of them are clear.

[Umbrage]

If you're town, then my best guess at the scum are Nacho and vezok. Your insistence that they are town crossed into stupidity long ago. If one of them dies today, I'll vig whoever you want.

[Umbrage]

It's not deadline yet...

But thank you vezok. As a token of my appreciation, I present you with an avatar I found of your namesake:

[Umbrage]

They don't make someone wrong either.

[Umbrage]

You mean you don't know? Pretty useless role you've got if you ask me.

[Umbrage]

FUCK IT, IS STOLE MY THUNDER.

I was planning on dragging this out for another few pages.

OK, time to come clean: I'm not a vig.

I'm one-shot bulletproof.

I apologize for the deception, but it was necessary to handle the masons. And hey, it worked! Well, kind of. I was sure that either Duplicity or Nacho would be scum.

But this is the beauty of my real plan. The one I told you about was flawed in that it didn't take into account an Apok/Tony scumteam. This plan does, if I had shot IS and scum killed me, it would be game over.

IS has to be town at this point. I don't care what Duplicity would say, there is NO FUCKING WAY he would try and confirm me as town today. It'd be way too easy for him to get me mislynched. That means Fishy is town, which means the scum fucking HAS to be Apok and/or Tony. Yes, I know they are unlikely buddies. Maybe there's only two scum in this game. Don't know, don't care. We take them both out. Leave nothing to chance.

Spare: vezok

vezok spares IS. Apok and Tony die. We win.

[Umbrage]

What are you mad at me for? I got you through the night alive, didn't I?

Honestly, there's just no gratitude for single-handily winning games anymore.

[Umbrage]

Look, yesterday neither were confirmed, and there was no apparent way we could kill them. What was I supposed to do? We've got mostly confirmed town alive now!

@ Apok and Tony:

The jig is up. The way I see it, there are three possible scenarios:

a) You two are both scum. This is the most likely. In this case, the mod has confirmed that you cannot spare each other, so you're dying today and town wins.

b) One of you is the last scum and the other is town. If one of you is town: DO NOT SPARE THE OTHER, THEY ARE SCUM.

c) One of you is scum with Fishy. I've given it some thought, and it's possible that since Fishy cannot be lynched, he might die automatically when his buddies are dead. This is basically the same situation as b).

tl; dr: DON'T SPARE EACH OTHER, IT WILL FUCK EVERYTHING UP IF ONE OF YOU IS TOWN.

[Umbrage]

6 * .65 = 3.9

MOD: It should only take four spared to end the day.

[Umbrage]

It's OK, we're lynching you anyway.

[Umbrage]

IT ONLY TAKES 4 SPARED TO END THE DAY.

65% OF 6 IS 3.9, SO WE NEED GREATER THAN 3.9 PLAYERS TO MEET THE THRESHOLD.

4 IS GREATER THAN 3.9, SO THERE IS A MISTAKE IN THE LAST VOTECOUNT, AND WE ONLY NEED 4 PLAYERS SAFE TO END THE DAY.

WE LYNCH TONY AND APOK, THAT LEAVES ME, FISHY, VEZOK, AND IS ALIVE.

[Umbrage]

Well, when deadline's met, of course. That's what I meant.

Shut up, I haven't slept properly in days...

[Umbrage]

MOD: You've said you will end the day early if there are no objections from the players. Right now we're all pretty much waiting for deadline to come. Apok and Tony seem fine with their lynch, and nobody else has raised any objections. Ending the day now would also save you the need to find a replacement for Tony.

[Umbrage]

A few thoughts:

1. The only reason we won this game is because nobody ever considered that I was scum with IS. If someone had thrown that idea out, I'm sure we would've been lynched. Some town thought I was scummy, and some thought IS was scummy, but they never put the pieces together. All the evidence was there, someone just needed to go looking for it. I blame inactivity for most of this.

2. This might seem like a mean thing to say, but I really think scum was underpowered. If I hadn't fakeclaimed, the masons would've fucked everything over. Fishy was obviously not scum, barring my 'dies if partners die' theory. Add in CK3's vig ability and IS needing two votes to live each day, and it was an uphill battle all the way. We got lucky D1 with Protoss distancing me and Fate dying. And as I said, if anyone had considered IS and myself as scum, we would've been finished.

3. I agree that chesskid3's role was pretty bastardly. Once he said he needed two votes to survive, there was no way we were going to let him live past N1. The only way I could see it working is if he lied like IS did, and said his extra vote was optional. Even then though, he probably would've been killed.

4. I think Duplicity earns the town MVP award. They came very close to figuring things out, I think the only mistake was trying to find the thing that stopped mafia from crossparing. This led to the massclaim idea which led to their lynch, and it also resulted in them believing my claim too quickly, simply because they wanted to believe it so badly. Regardless, they were our only real threat D2. Thanks for keeping me on my toes, Regfan. Whether I'm plotting with you or against you, it's always awesome.

[Umbrage]

@ Fate: You had me, but you got distracted with Freewill. And you let me gather enough scumslips on you to launch a viable counter-wagon. If you stayed focused on me, you could've single-handily won the game.

[Umbrage]

He didn't get two votes. He used his secret spare ability to make it through this day.