Ender's Game Mafia (Over)

[Zang]

Vote: SleepyKrew

for being serious.

[Zang]

It is the opposite of what town would do normally but it's RVS and I ussualy vote someone who's voting seriously as a random vote.

[Zang]

Unvote

RVS is a myth that is only perpetuated by people who say "uhhh, well, I guess its random voting stage so I don't have to be accountable. If that's your meta, then its a really stupid meta, because what town should be doing is trying to pick up the minuscule information til it leads to better and better information, garnering interactions that will be useful along the way. Which is, by the way, precisely what people who are "being serious" are doing.

By voting for them, you are voting for the players who are doing the most town thing possible at this stage of the game, and that is just wildly incoherent at best. So, yeah, my votes on you, bub. Better vote me because I'm "being serious."

Who said it was a myth? I don't agree with that because that minuscule information gives you nothing. I know that other people will hold me accountable for what I do in RVS but I don't think that I should be and I don't hold other people accountable for what they do in RVS. Like I said, being serious should be encouraged but I see it as just as good of a reason for voting in the RVS as anything else.

No, I really don't.

Yes, you do. You said that he was town, you have to explain your actions.

This seems very defensive, seeing as I'm not even voting you.

He responded to you when you accused him of something. How is that being defensive? Normally, when somebody is accused of something it's scummy not to respond to it.

[Zang]

Vote: Thestatusquo

You can't say that people are town without having any reasoning.

The point of the game is interacting.

Interacting is two sided. You are not letting people interact with you. Whenever somebody asks you a question or an explanation, you either avoid answering it or deny answering it.

[Zang]

Because it was a bandwagon vote which doesn't have sufficient evidence for change. Their actions separately are null at best, but I've seen this vehemence enough times as town v. town that it seems a likely mathematical possibility. The best way to find out is a lynch. My vote stays.

You don't lynch people to see if they're town, you lynch them to see if they're scum.

I'd say that TSQ has done most of the interaction this game. Admittedly, most of that has been dancing around the point and/or semantics, but it is interaction.

He has done the most in the game but most of that isn't interaction.

[Zang]

You people have trouble reading "good chance." That's a mathematical calculation, not an opinion. The basic premise of that statement was "I won't be surprised if both are town," and that's based on historical data. Plus, there are reasonably 9 townies, so the chances are pretty damn good. I think one of you reacting against this could easily be scum. Look at my history. I'm not stupid enough to be that blatantly scummy (as you are interpeting this), and this is my typical day 1 play. Don't be dense.

Zang, that may be how you play, but I lynch for day 2 information on day 1. People are different.

What information could you gain from lynching him that would help in day 2?

...are you deliberately misinterpreting all of TSQ's posts, or are you just choosing to ignore the back-and-forths he's had already today?

All TSQ has done is accuse people and ask them questions but when somebody accuses him of something or asks him a question he ignores it or denies answering it. I don't consider that to be interaction.

[Zang]

Unvote

Who said it was a myth? I don't agree with that because that minuscule information gives you nothing. I know that other people will hold me accountable for what I do in RVS but I don't think that I should be and I don't hold other people accountable for what they do in RVS. Like I said, being serious should be encouraged but I see it as just as good of a reason for voting in the RVS as anything else.

This, right here, is why my vote's going to stay. Not wanting to hold others accountable, and not wanting to be -held- accountable for your actions, even at the first stage of the game (Which, in my opinion, is a highly important stage) is the definition of a scum mindset.

I mean, how hard can you actually be scumhunting if you don't want to hold another accountable for their actions/posts/votes?

I hold people accountable for their actions just not for what they do in RVS.

[Zang]

Unvote

Who said it was a myth? I don't agree with that because that minuscule information gives you nothing. I know that other people will hold me accountable for what I do in RVS but I don't think that I should be and I don't hold other people accountable for what they do in RVS. Like I said, being serious should be encouraged but I see it as just as good of a reason for voting in the RVS as anything else.

This, right here, is why my vote's going to stay. Not wanting to hold others accountable, and not wanting to be -held- accountable for your actions, even at the first stage of the game (Which, in my opinion, is a highly important stage) is the definition of a scum mindset.

I mean, how hard can you actually be scumhunting if you don't want to hold another accountable for their actions/posts/votes?

I hold people accountable for their actions just not for what they do in RVS.

Except it's generally in the RVS that whatever catalyses the first major discussion of the game happens... which wouldn't be possible unless people were held to account even in some small way for their RVS vote.

yes but I'm not that person and I was refering to not holding people accountable for what they did in RVS after RVS ended.

[Zang]

I want to see TSQ drunkpost, actually.
This LordChronos thing:
I called it a sheep as a joke. He said he didn't like me. The joke is that that applies to a lot of people. His defense was fine, but I decided to reactiontest (albeit not a very good one, looking back) by saying he overreacted.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Jedo
diediedie
Zang is scummy too.
Is Voided voting yet?

What did you hope to gain from his reaction? Also, why are you voting Jedo, why am I scum and why is TSQ town?

[Zang]

I'm sheeping the Jedo vote because everyone commented on it before I did.
Zang is scummy because of his voting me for being serious, and then saying people shouldn't be held accountable in RVS.
I was hoping for an actual scummy overreaction, and that did not come.
Now, has it occurred to you that maybe TSQ has a reason for not telling the Town why I'm town? While I expect an explanation later, I don't need it right now.
So Jedo, cool extrascummy post. Die.

1. I agree with your vote but you should have explained that when you first voted for him.
2. I dont see why that's scummy.
3. A scummy overaction to your scummy overaction? By you overeacting to it first, it would be hypocritical for you to accuse the second person of being scum for overeacting. Even if you overeacted to fish for reactions.
4. I don't see why TSQ or anybody else would have any reason for witholding information from the town. This also doesn't answer my question, why do you think he is town.

[Zang]

Of course you think Knights had the best, most reasonable response.

That's because it is reasonable. The people voting me are jumping all over something so blatant it's ridiculous, but the real problem is the arrogance that says "such-and-such is a scumtell" when, in reality, town and scum both do it making it null. Lynch me and see how stupidly wrong you are.

In the meantime, I decided to go back and read some of the attention grabbers in ISO. Again, mathematically speaking, I wouldn't be surprised if Zang actually is scum. I've seen a fair few towns catch a scum with something like that on day 1. The thing is, I don't have that ability and don't often see the scumminess in it, but I've learned to trust the towns. He is worth eyeing.

More than that though, I believe Krew to be scum. I don't believe the reaction-testing argument, and the subsequent sheeping is not helpful. (It just rubs me wrong that he was using sheeping as the reaction-testing litmus, and now he's doing it for real. ) Somewhat aside: He only had three posts before TSQ made his comment about the towntell. The only one even remotely possible is saying he caught the scumbuddy. Not good enough for me by any stretch of the imagination.

unvote, vote SleepyKrew

I dont care if your town or scum, either way you are playing anti-town. Also, Why do you keep saying mathematically speaking? You cant just say random reads and prove it through random math. How exactly do you get it through math though? this isnt a very math related game besides mostly useless statistics. Also, math doesnt change. Before you were saying that I'm town through math and now your saying that i'm scum through math based on the same argument I had with TSQ.

FoS: Jedo

Internet Stranger-My name is Zang not Wang.
smallpeople343-Do you have any thoughts on anything that's been happening in the game?

[Zang]

sorry, got caught up in some things. I will have a detailed read up tomorrow, I've been working on it. If its not up by then feel free to vote for me until I post it.

Scouts honor, guys.

Okay. VOTE: TSQ

Once Again, Do you have any opinion on anything that's happened in the game?

[Zang]

How can I add to my case if he won't post? Unless his lurking is another point to add. I shine a spotlight on him and he scurries away like a scummy roach.

Since I am not in the mood to defend bullshit cases made by trolls who have decided to tunnelvision, I'll be ignoring IS until he says something worthwhile. Because I honestly just could not give a damn to try to change his mind considering his reputation. Fair warning in case anyone wonders why I don't respond to him from here on out.

[Zang]

1. Why would he be in panic mode when you're the only person whot thinks he is scum?
2. Why are you so ready to declare him as scum? Especially after what was originally very weak reasoning.

[Zang]

I guess the place to start here is to finally explain the comment I made about krew's townieness. it's a small thing, as can be expected this early in the game. Remember I said "the only townie thing thus far." Post 14, right out of the bat, is a very townie post. At the beginning of the game, a
townie should be working to maximize every little opportunity to create information. Krew does that by escuing a random vote, and voting for
something of substance really early. It is not in scums best interest, usually, to take an active role in ending the randomness that usually defines
the early part of the game. Therefore, krew's 14 reads deliciously townie to me.

I disagree completely that it makes him town.

Lord chronos' 15, however, strikes me as wrong, conditionally. If he's talking about krew's out of game behavior, then I can see voting early for him
in game, but based on his one post, the claim "I don't like you right now" reads completely false.

That wasn't just early in the game, that was in RVS.

Jedo votes for me, which seems to be a null tell. It's often the case that rather then scumhunting weaker players tend to vote for those players who are making themselves most prominent, rather than those who are actually acting in ways that don't help the town, and I certainly was
attracting attention to myself page one. However, scum do this too because they don't know how to look for scum when they know who they are. This merits further watching, but alone it means nothing

What do you not understand about the RANDOM VOTING STAGE? He voted for you for exactly what he said and for nothing more. At that point he was not scumhunting weakly because nobody was scum hunting. Also, What makes you say that you are a prominent player? At that point you only had two posts how does that make you prominent at all and for the past few pages, all you've been doing is procrastinating this post.

My discussion with zang has been well documented. if that is his meta it is exceedingly stupid, if it isn't, he's scum. He could still be scum anyway, one of the main reasons to cultivate a deliberately anti-town meta is to be able to get away with doing anti town things when scum. I like my vote on him

My meta is having the RVS be random. Not everything little detail can be analyzed for town and scum motivation and in fact most can't, if that is your meta it is exceedingly stupid. Also why would scum do that?

voidedmafia's 30 would be fine...Asking for why a player holds opinions is almost always good but as I discussed in depth, it was literally the only thing he'd done up to that point in the game, which is a major problem.

At that point in the game it was PAGE 2. Some people still haven't posted anything. What could he have done before then? Before then it was RVS, a concept that you just don't seem to grasp.

Furthermore, I wanted to get voided to comment more on the game, which, I will note, he still hasn't done, other than to keep calling for me to tell him what I saw he has provided close to zero analysis on the game so far, just responded when he is attacked, and asked me to present him with things he's not searching for himself.

Voided has done a lot this game, more than you at least.

Note very carefully my post 102 and the posts that followed it. I say that I will try to get my analysis up by a certain day, and that people should
vote for me after that because the pressure might help. Voided mafia and small people (another who has done next to nothing the whole game) jump right on it without even giving me the time period I asked for. its almost as if they were hoping I'd get rung up before I could post it.

Why does it matter? You still didn't post it when you said you would and I was voting for you, I just never unvoted.

Voided gets a little better on page 5, but still, mostly it is a catalyst coming from being pressured by IS. He is not doing anything this game but defending himself. not scumhunting at all.

Voided was offensive against you on page 2. That wasn't defending himself.

I could probably be convinced of zang as well.

You haven't commented on me doing anything scummy in the game except for my RVS vote which is very weak reasoning to lynch somebody for and I still don't believe it to be scummy.

I really hate you and your play but unfortunately, you aren't scummy besides your Voided vote.

Unvote

Vote: Internet Stranger

Sleepy and Jedo are just as scummy but at least thery're contributing beyond "ScumWriter is scum".

if I have to pick between Sleepy and Jedo, I'm picking Jedo, but scumwriter is still the scum.

You're ignoring both my and Voided's post.

[Zang]

Why am I scum?

[Zang]

The whole accountableinRVS thing. And add defending Voided to the list.
May I ask the same question?

Why are either of those scummy?

You have done nothing to help the town.

random voting stage only exists if we let it exist. That is to say if we make people become accountable early on, there isn't a "random voting stage." There is a little bit of randomness in the early game, sure, but a towns job is to minimize that, not embrace it and say "welp, guess nothing matters.

But there is a random voting stage and although people are held accountable for what they do in it, there is nothing to be held accountable for. The town's job is to focus on what really matters not calling people scum because they randomly vote someone in the RVS.

Look at it this way, if I grant, for a moment, that your position is correct, and nothing that happens during "rvs" matters or should be used to call the poster to account, how do we get out of randomness? Like, it would seem to me from that position it would logically follow that everything is random.

As I've said before, I'm talking about holding people accountable after RVS ends.

He doesn't mention why he thinks ScumWriter is so townie.

I never said that he was town. I don't think he is town, I just don't think he's scum.

if scumwriter isn't going to be the lynch anyways because all of the interest is all on jedi and Krew, so why the throwaway vote on me?

I never said that. Do you always make up things for people to say? I vote for who I think is most scummy regardless of who is most popular.

You are still ignoring both Voided and my posts. I have pointed that out and you still ignore me, that is very scummy.

[Zang]

God Zang, are you scum or just stupid?

Do you always call someone scum or stupid when they ask you a question?

Zang, what is said in RVS is still relevant because while it may be joking, the psyche of the person is still apparent in those posts. Somewhat like when people will make fun of others: sometimes it's just a joke, but sometimes those words actually express what that person thinks. Thus, the town's job is to sift through what is joke-y and what isn't. Yes, the town may be wrong, but I've seen a lot of times when they are correct. Usually, the most telling stuff is in the transition out of RVS because you can see how people are responding to the transition and what they consider to be important.

okay, you have a point about the transition and I agree that the psyche of the person is apparent. I just choose not to hold people accountable for it because to me, it is uninterpretable and although people have found stuff in RVS, I believe that a lot of that is just luck.

Huh?!? Then what the fuck is he?!?

I don't know. Unlike you, I don't just declare someone as town when I want to. I develop my reads, especially to the lurkers, over time because everybody does both pro-town, anti-town and scummy things and it is idiotic to judge them based on only one of those. Also, STOP IGNORING ME.

Null isn't an alignment. I'm still super comfortable with my Zang vote because of the "I don't think he's town or scum" thing. That is not at all the same as saying he has a null read, and it strikes me as wishy-washy and scummy.

What? Do you know what the alignment of everybody in the town is? Unless you're scum, you don't and I don't know either and I'm not ready to make these judgments that could change the entire course of the game so easily.

FoS: Untrod Tripod

So how much lurking can Scumwriter continue to do before he stops being "null"?

In my opinion, Lurking is a null action many times town do it just as often as scum or scum do it more but not enough to make it a scum tell. Besides, I judge people on the quality of their posts not the quantity.

[Zang]

There's a difference between the lurking that GhostWriter is doing and Purposeful lurking,

[Zang]

There's a difference between the lurking that GhostWriter is doing and Purposeful lurking,

So you know for sure that he wasn't lurking on purpose? If so, I would love to know how!

Mostly Benefit of the doubt but also because of meta.

That being Scumwriter not contributing, as I'm obviously doing my part to hang the scum.

Being anti-town is worse than not contributing.

[Zang]

Look at the buddying. Voided or Zang, Jedo can wait.

Do you even know what buddying is?

Buddying up is a tactic, usually used by members of the Mafia, to try to make yourself look less threatening. Typically the Mafia member will try to be friendly in some way, either outright or, more often, subtly. If the Mafia member is ever lynched at some point, and other players have noticed the buddying, it tends to throw suspicion on the person the Mafia was being friendly towards, thereby causing confusion even after the Mafioso's death.

Buddying is between mafia and the town but you think we're both scum.

[Zang]

SleepyKrew was more of a RVS vote, but I found him null, so I switched.

But why did you vote Jedo?

Please compare and contrast the contributions of the three players in terms of: 1) Opinions shared about other players 2) total posts and 3) total post content.

GhostWriter is the only one of IS and Sleepy that doesn't post something scummy every time he posts.

If Scumwriter would do something, anything! If he does, then maybe I could put better focus on others. I got a scum on the run right now. If he wasn't scum, all he has to do is contribute, give us some opinions on others, like Jedo and Krew. I mean, wouldn't thay shut me up? Wouldn't that totally cut me off? Yet, he prefers to play this little game.

GhostWriter asked a question the last time he posted. That's something and it is contributing more than mindlessly accusing others of being scum. Also once again,

WHY DO YOU KEEP IGNORING ME?

Are you even reading the thread?

Somehow Scumwriter is less scummy the less he posts? Are you truly advocating "lurk to victory"?

Do you skip over all my posts? Like I said before, People should be judged on the content of their posts not the number of their posts.

[Zang]

I didn't touch it because Zang is being an idiot. Mafia can buddy with their partners. Though I do have a question. Zang, to me, that seems like you know 100% for sure that Voided is Town

what would the mafia motivation be for buddying each other.

I do not think Voided is 100% town, I never think that anybody is ever 100% town or mafia. I do think that he is most likely town though.

smallpeoples- You really have to give more content.

[Zang]

So you're town. How do you know that Voided is town too? He might be scum, which makes my buddying theory correct, no?

He might be buddying, but I don't find scum actually buddying that much. I find it much more likely that he's town than buddying scum but like I said, I don't think he's 100% town so I'm still open to that possibility.

Also: Never say 'Mafia wuld nvr do dat lulzorz!' because they can just WIFOM the hell out of you.

I didn't say that, I asked you a question and I expect an answer.

Observe: TSQ is awesome. TSQ is always right. TSQ is the best player. I will sheep TSQ to eternity. I have just buddied. I cannot be scum now, no?

No, buddying does not always mean town and it does not always mean scum. No scum or town tell automatically makes you, without a doubt that alignment.

Now about the alignment thing, did you ever address the issue IS brought up or did you let Voided handle that for you?

Specifically, what are you talking about.

Voided, you cant just stand there on your pedestal, act like a White Knight and pretend that only your opinion matters.

If anybody is doing that, it's TSQ.

determining whos arguements are valid, who's are not, who's scummy looking, who isn't etc.

That is the job of every pro-town person.

IS, You are either not reading the thread or purposefully ignoring me, either way they are both incredibly scummy.

Zang's posting was almost entirely an attack on statusquo about Voided

No, I did defend Voided but I also said a lot more.

As for IS, I think declaring someone scum outright like he did can be a useful tactic because, as we see, it really made the accused twitch and the other players jump in some manner. Can be useful, imo, in generating information. People who are jumping on him for declaring someone scum make me think they're going for an easier, distracting thing.

Regardless of what reactions you get. You can't just declare someone as scum over something so small.

This sounds like coaching. Very uncommitted and in depth for stuff we've hit over a few times already.

I disagree. That was one of Jedo's most pro-town posts.

Zang asks too many questions.

Questions are good.

Why do you vote and then unvote in the same post? What is the point of tha?

[Zang]

Zang, don't act like you don't remember saying someone isn't town or scum.

No, I don't. Once again, where specifically are you talking about?

[Zang]

Also, Is that all you are going to respond to?

[Zang]

Zang, don't act like you don't remember saying someone isn't town or scum.

No, I don't. Once again, where specifically are you talking about?

When you said someone wasn't town but wasn't scum either.
And yes, that's all I'm going to address.
IS, can I get a list of reads on everyone?

Sorry, I misread your first post. But I didnt exactly say that, I believe I said that I didn't think he is town or scum or at least that's what I meant to say and also, once again are you going to respond to my question or just ignore it?

With both you and IS, you ignore everything against you and attack everything else.

[Zang]

Which question would you like me to answer?
Very nice exaggeration.

This-

what would the mafia motivation be for buddying each other

And it's not much of an exaggeration. I post responding to each of your comments against me and the next time you post you only respond to one as you just did. And IS, I brought up him ignoring me for the same reason several times and he ignores those. Even in his most recent post, Both voided and myself have responded to his posts yet he ignores all of it.

[Zang]

Now you admit that I ignore most of it, that's not the same as ignoring everything. Nice lie
The Mafia motivation is WIFOM and defending their buddy to keep them alive.

No, it isn't you didn't answer what was against you, but you responded to what you could use against me.

So I can't defend someone who I think is town?

[Zang]

Jedo should be at L-1.

I don't see how massnameclaim helps.

With that claim, I think Jedo would most likely be town.

[Zang]

Mass name claim would not help anybody except mafia. Sleepy, How would a mass name claim help?

UT- this isn't the first game with the main charecter as vanilla and you have no reason to assume that.

[Zang]

I just finished a doctor who game where two of the three doctors were vanilla. That's two main charecters as vanillas.

Mafia could easily judge poeple based off of the name of their role, except obviously ender. Mafia were most likely given fakeclaims anyway.

[Zang]

No, his claim makes me think he is town.

[Zang]

Zang,
your play right now is reminding me REALLY strongly of Brotherhood of the Wolf, where you were also scum.

That's my general play regardless of alignment.

Claiming VT makes him town? Really Zang? Didn't you JUST say Mafia could have fakeclaims and Ender could be a VT?

It isn't him claiming VT but him claiming ender and I doubt that Ender would be a mafia fake claim.

[Zang]

IS-Role speculation isn't good, only the mod will ever know who has what role. Claiming could easily confirm somebody to be town.

It isn't him claiming VT but him claiming ender and I doubt that Ender would be a mafia fake claim.

scum-Jedo probably understands that he's going to get lynched soon, so he's claiming what would presumably be the most power town role in an attempt to out the real Ender before he dies so his scumbudz can either tie up a potential doc/JK protecting ender for the rest of the game so they can more easily pick off town PRs or just make an attempt on Ender's life every night.

Once again, You have no reason to assume that over him actually being a VT.

So you'd rather no lynch Zang?
PEDIT: IS, what is the name of your faction? NOBODY ELSE ANSWER THIS
Also IS, deadline is almost up, so be ready to hammer quickly.

Actually at this point, I would rather lynch you since nobody else is voting IS.

Unvote
Vote: SleepyKrew

[Zang]

Who said that?

[Zang]

Sleepy- So? Theres still enough time to lynch you.

[Zang]

You talk as if I didn't say I should be lynched regardless of my claim

SEE ZANG

I disagree with that

[Zang]

No point hiding from me, for I am

Nikolai Delphiki

. I want to prove my worth to the rest of Dragon Army, so I do some snooping and investigating on my own. However, I'm trying to work on my self-confidence, so I don't allow anyone to help me. I'm a

Macho Cop

, so don't try protecting me.

I don't remeber him, i'm going to look it up.

WELL WHY DON'T WE JUST REVEAL ALL OF THE POWER ROLES ON DAY ONE IN ADDITION TO HELPING SCUM MAKE MORE CREDIBLE FAKE CLAIMS, HOW DOES THAT SOUND

What's he supposed to do, not claim?

[Zang]

I didn't remember him because he wasn't in Ender's Game, Why would he be in this game?

[Zang]

Wikipedia says that he was only in Ender's Shadow and Shadow of the Hegemon.

[Zang]

I swear I remember him. But even if he's not in Ender's Game, the mod has said that Shadow is also in this game, and he was major in Shadow.

Where did the mod say that?

[Zang]

I don't think you know exactly what WIFOM means. also any analysis I make today is going to be based on knowing absolutely nothing but my own role and trying to figure out what your claim could mean. Maybe the logic isn't as fleshed out and substantial as it could be, but it's a day one day start. We have nothing to go on.

I find it more likely that Ender would be power than vanilla and I find it more likely that you're scum than that Ender is vanilla, so I'm wary of your claim. That's not WIFOM at all. That's just probability.

Saying that "Ender would be more likely to be a power than vanilla" is WIFOM. It's the definition of WIFOM. You have no Idea what the mod choose for the roles in this game and it is WIFOM to assume that you do.

[Zang]

God damn that is such a shitty role claim, but im willing to believe it. Keep pushing on him though Scumwriter, looking good there.

Unvote: Krew
Vote: Scumwriter

If he is doing something pro-town, why are you voting for him?

[Zang]

IS
FACTION
NAME

Now do you see how he ignores people?

IS- Regardless of whether you say it's sarcasm. I still think that what he's doing is pro-town.

[Zang]

Saying that "Ender would be more likely to be a power than vanilla" is WIFOM. It's the definition of WIFOM. You have no Idea what the mod choose for the roles in this game and it is WIFOM to assume that you do.

No.

WIFOM is the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that his behavior would be subject to scrutiny.

Don't correct people if you're wrong.

In situations such as the movie scenario mentioned above, one often may try to use what he knows of his opponent to make a better choice. However, in some cases this leads to recursive reasoning: "But that's just what he wants me to think, so I'll do the opposite. But maybe that's what he wants me to think, so I'll not do the opposite. But maybe that's what he wants me to think..."

[Zang]

Saying that "Ender would be more likely to be a power than vanilla" is WIFOM. It's the definition of WIFOM. You have no Idea what the mod choose for the roles in this game and it is WIFOM to assume that you do.

No.

WIFOM is the circular reasoning that results from trying to determine the choices of an opponent who acted with full knowledge that his behavior would be subject to scrutiny.

Don't correct people if you're wrong.

In situations such as the movie scenario mentioned above, one often may try to use what he knows of his opponent to make a better choice. However, in some cases this leads to recursive reasoning: "But that's just what he wants me to think, so I'll do the opposite. But maybe that's what he wants me to think, so I'll not do the opposite. But maybe that's what he wants me to think..."

[Zang]

no krew, let's let the scum nitpick a reasonable day one argument to waste our time instead of making any proactive steps towards a lynch. it'll just make it easier for us to catch them later.

You're the one of those who are nitpicking.

[Zang]

I think TSQ asked Jedo to claim.

[Zang]

As I've told Zang, leads to WIFOMfest.

Here's what I don't get. If I defend someone you think is town, you call it buddying and me scum. If I defend someone who you think is scum, then you call it buddying and me scum. With your logic, I can't defend anybody that I think is town without you calling it buddying. As the town it is our job to lynch scum and not lynch town. How am I supposed to not lynch town if you say that I'm buddying when I try to do it.

Cool, you referenced one game with the main character as a VT. How many games are there where the opposite is true?

We are in no position to try to to outguess the mod.

Why precisely do you want to know my faction name?

Actually, I think I might know why. I doubt that it would work though. I would like to hear IS's responce though.

[Zang]

As I've told Zang, leads to WIFOMfest.

Here's what I don't get. If I defend someone you think is town, you call it buddying and me scum. If I defend someone who you think is scum, then you call it buddying and me scum. With your logic, I can't defend anybody that I think is town without you calling it buddying. As the town it is our job to lynch scum and not lynch town. How am I supposed to not lynch town if you say that I'm buddying when I try to do it.

First off, I'm not using buddying as the sole reason you're scum. I think both you and Voided are scum, and the buddying simply strengthens my read. Second, why not let people defend themselves?

What are the other reasons? I let other people defend themselves but if I see somebody accusng someone unjustly then I will defend them especially if I think they are town. I see nothing wrong with that. It should actually be encouraged if you are town.

[Zang]

Voided didn't do that when I defended him.

[Zang]

Where?

[Zang]

No, he didn't say "What he said". He didn't even bother addressing it at all after you handled it Voided.

Once again, Where?

[Zang]

hesnottownbuthesnotscumeither

That has nothing to do with me letting somebody defend me and then not responding to it.

[Zang]

You didn't respond to it.
God this is annoying. Can I just lurk till deadline?

What are you talking about? I'm the one who said that I didn't think he was town or scum.

[Zang]

And I responded to the questions.

[Zang]

GhostWriter posted several times yesterday. How is that lurking till the deadline?

[Zang]

I think that he most likely would be a cop, if the flavor fit. It doesn't though so I think it's more likely to be a fakeclaim.

Although it is WIFOM, i can see how Ender would fit as a vanilla.

[Zang]

I looked up Nikolai twice now and it doesnt make much sense for him to be a cop, especially a macho cop. Like Scumwriter said, Nikolai appears to be a really minor player in the books. The only thing stopping me from lynching him is the fact that the mod can do whatever the fuck he wants. If he made Ender a VT, then why not make Nikolai a cop too?

So considering that, I say we lynch ScumWriter instead.

Why? he's not lurking anymore. He's posted several times today and yesterday and I think he's provided good content.

[Zang]

Why do you think you're right that he is scum if your reasons for thinking he is scum are no longer valid?

[Zang]

WHAT MAKES YOU SO SURE THAT YOU ARE RIGHT?

You have no reasoning at all for thinking that he is scum but you still think he is scum. Only scum do that.

HoS: Internet Stranger

I would vote you if we weren't so close to deadlne and needed to lynch somebody.

[Zang]

[quote="smallpeoples343"]Hmm... just a note. First, I made a thought that there was a scum between SleepyKrew and IS. This is so far turning out well, since everyone else is now thinking that too. Yay for my prediction![quote]

Your prediction came true before you posted it.

[Zang]

does that mean that the deadline is extended?

Im also going to have limited access for the next few days.

[Zang]

Why would the mods being V/LA extend the deadline?

They might not be able to get on.

[Zang]

I thought he was at L-2.

[Zang]

(expired on 2011-07-21 23:00:00)

We should lynch someone soon.

[Zang]

Vote: Internet Stranger

I would still rather lynch IS than Jedo.

Assuming that we do have an SK, could it be Ender himself?

Anything is possible but to me Ender makes more sence as vanilla than a SK.

[Zang]

Youre going on a shitty assumption that we are the only viable candidates. Dont forget Zang, it was you and your keystone cop friends that strung up Krew, not I.

In fact, your position on the wagon is really suspicious Zang. I think that I will be looking at you more closely for a while.

I never assumed that. I think you're scum so I'm voting for you. Jedo was brought up by voided and I said that I would rather vote you then Jedo. I never said that I was ruling out anybody but nobody has really done anything to make me think that they are scum yet.

I also don't regret lynching him, he was scummy and he lied about his claim.

[Zang]

You don't suspect anyone else because no one else has done much of anything. You may or may not be scum, but my point about you being a goon for the scum still stands. They get to sit back and lurk while you bash in the heads of whatever townies are trying to scumhunt. Krew was an idiot yes, but he was our idiot. Stop trying to pigeonhole me as scum for at least part of the day and try to browbeat some others into making some analyzable contributions.

I don't find lurking scummy as long as the lurkers post content when they do post and I expect many of the lurkers to pick up activity today.

Zang: No. No voting IS. And if you know why, no saying it, either. Right now, the best lynch is Jedo until something else comes up, but not IS

Why is Jedo the best lynch? I'll go back and look at him later but I don't really remember him doing anything really scummy.

Thinking about the books, Ender did kill Bonzo and Stilson in those two fights, so I wouldn't rule out the possibility.

Yes, but wasn't he completely ignorant about that? I remember that he was at least ignorant about him killing Stilson. TSQ is right though that we shouldn't try to outgess the mod.

My point is about the bolded part. Its bullshit. If scum are lurking, that means that Zang will never find them. Essentially im saying that Zang is like a hockey goon being taken advantage of by the scum

Townies lurk just as much as scum. You can not judge who is scum based solely on who is lurking.

[Zang]

I don't ignore anybody. As I said before, I don't find lurking scummy as long as the lurkers post content when they do post. I don't join games just to lynch townies that can't be on the computer all the time. Yes, the occasional mafia is hidden amongst them but by the time we get there we've already lost. I've been in games with several lurkers and all of them have turned out to be townies.

And posting little does not mean that they post no content. To me, one of the greatest scum tells is active lurking.

[Zang]

Great, so all the scum have to do is fake 5 posts and they are golden with you. As opposed to 5 good posts along with 20 incriminating ones when the pressure is on.

Bravo Zang bravo. I will surely be following you to the end game, that's so sure. There is no way we will fail catching all the scum now

I don't understand. Scum would have to fake a lot more than five posts to not active lurk.

Sang I'm pretty curious here. You say you are fine with lurkers insofar as they post content when they do post. What are your opinions on the about 4 players in this game who are giving us just one contentless post after another? Why are you not pressuring them?

The only one that is really contentless is smallpeoples and although he is scummy, I find others scummier. Even Bogre gives at least some content. Townies lurk for a reason as opposed to mafia. I believe that pressuring them would do little to help them.

I give Zang a big reprimand over ignoring the lurkers and not browbeating them into contributing and you gleefully agreed with me. Then, I do my own browbeating onto Scumwriter for lurking and now youre giving me shit for it?

I'm not really sure if GhostWriter is lurking. He gave a lot of content at the end of yesterday.

What about Bogre? Dont you care about him either? Is he a scumbuddy of yours, perhaps?

What was the point of this question.

[Zang]

The only thing these animals understand is fear. Fear of the lynch. They wont respect you until they realize that youre serious. Stop baking them cookies as if you were grandma and start bringing the pain

Threatening them with a lynch doesn't do anything. I'm not encouraging lurking but that does not mean I should lynch them just because they can't always post.

At this point you're acknowledging them as town but you're still treating them as if they're scum.

Happy Birthday TSQ.

Is that really all you have to contribute? You have been asked several questions and you respond to none?

Unvote
Vote: smallpeoples343

I know I said that there were scummier people than him but there are no reasons for him to have posted this.

[Zang]

IS- That doesn't look like GhostWriter is posting no content.

Also, Borge was the single most useless person yesterday. FoS'd the Jedo wagon, but refused to get on it. Came back and makes a post implying SK is town, but is too late to make Jedo an option. Feels like that was just an attempt to get town points. Furthermore, scum Borge is about the only way I see Jedo-scum as possible

How was smallpeoples any less useless?

[Zang]

No, I believe the've both done very little but at least Bogre tries.

[Zang]

Either way, I find it peculiar that Scumwriter only comes out when I call him out. Its like I have to turn on the bat signal so that he will make a post.

He didn't come out because you called him out, he came out because he was prodded. You had nothing to do with that.

In one tiny little sentence you're trying to belittle my contributions (which you have been the #1 receiver of my hunting), and saying, 'At least I try.'

What contributions have you made? You've barely posted anything since page 3. And you only responded to a few posts within 20 pages.

Yep. Nothing Zang has done has resolved the issues I brought up before, and I think IS makes some pretty good points in that being Zang complacent=bad.

Especially the Jedo-coaching Zang bit, that's the thing I'm still remembering

What exactly did you bring up before?

Are you really comparing me to the guy who has only posted things like, 'happy birthday', and the idiotic voting crap, I mean, really? I think you're trying to shoot down everything I've posted at you by claiming 'oh, he hasn't posted for a while, so that means NOTHING he's contributed has any bearing.'

I did say that you tried. Instead of posting “Happy Birthday”. You responded to posts in the thread. But your responses were from posts 3 pages ago and normally that wouldn't bother me but you posted those so little and you skipped over so much that it pretty much was useless.

Don't patronize me, Zangscum, I've got you and your little buddy too

So it's scummy that I don't think you're contributing enough?

[Zang]

I think IS is town. This is how he always plays. If you don't like what he's saying, just ignore him

If it's how he always plays then why does that make him town? At best it's null but it's anti-town regardless.

5. So, no one has figured out who the mafia kill was? If we don't know that than it suggests that both of the dead players were pro-town which suggests a SK not a Vig. That would be my conclusion.

It's hard to do that when you don't even know who they mafia would be.

Vote: GhostWriter

We should probably just speed lynch this fellow, another night phase will give me time to catch up with a computer whose screen doesn't look like a Commodore from '85

Why is GhostWriter scummy?

IS is town. Jedo, I'm not so sure about.

I'm still confused as to why you think IS is town.

I say, nah, let's kill him. Then we can kill all the other lurkers - probably at least one scum, if not more, amongst them. I'm game.

No, lurking isn't scummy. GhostWriter is providing content, it's not his fault that he can't get on to post all the time. I see nothing scummy in that at all. If you're going to lynch a lurker, at least don't lynch the one who is giving the most content.

B) Skimming through, posting minimal content just to get by (ScumWriter)

How is he doing that?

Even worse - I've actually openly admitted to not even reading the game, much less your posts. This is the first of your posts I've read. Ever

You didn't even go back to read the posts of the person you're voting for because he's lurking? You should at least do that before you vote for him.

So you're saying IS is super obv. town that scum need to buddy to?

You admitted that you didn't read the thread. If you were scum, you wouldn't know how horribly anti-town IS is but you would know if he is town.

Yes.
What's your plan? Who should I be voting and why?

That is a terrible, anti-town reason to vote for someone. You should vote somebody for being scummy not because they aren't as active as you.

As for Chronos, lemme look back and see who he's suspected and voted.

If Thor wants to know, he should be the one to go back and check.

Hey Voided, its crap like "IS is NOT the lynch" that gets you branded as a White Knight

[/quote][/quote]

How does that make him a White Knight?

[Zang]

V/LA

I'm not sure how long

[Zang]

I found an alternate internet source.

The two players who were NKed, at the end of Day 1 - would you have described them as town reads to you or scum reads?

I would describe them as null reads.

Because he's not one of my 5 townreads

Why is he scummy though? Why is he left out of your townreads?

So you support lurker lynches, just not on Ghostwriter because you think he's town? Why do you think he's town?

I do not support lurker lynched but I do support active lurker lynches. I will say why I think he's town when you say when you say why you think he's scum.

Too late, already voted for him.
Oh well, he's probably scum anyway, so no worries.
Are you concerned about the 5+ people I'm calling town without going back and reading them? Or do you agree with me?

Voting is not a permanent thing. You can easily unvote him an go back and read. Why would you think he's scum anyway? You have absolutely no evidence to think he's scum. I am concerned with you giving any reads without going back and reading them regardless of whether I agree with them or not.

I do think he is town.
Ghostwriter said I was "buddying" IS. Who "buddies"? Scum. Who does scum "buddy"? Town. Ergo - Ghostwriter was calling IS town and I was asking him about that.

Why do you think he's town?

Why is smallpeoples scum?

I think he's scum because he's giving absolutely no content. Ghostwriter though is giving content, you're just voting him because he doesn't have that many posts. Which like I said, is a terrible, anti-town reason to vote for someone.

You don't see that the whole "I'm going to ignore IS" is just a ploy to try and avoid having me out him? The less he says, the less he can scumslip on. (Got that Zang?).

Which do you think is more likely, He posts little so he can't scumslip or he posts little because real life makes it so that he can't post any more?

Zang keeps insistring that ScumWriter is contributing, but all he did was denounce Krew and getting Krew lynched by mentioning theme related info that any monkey can look up on google.

You're completely ignoring everything he did today.

[quote="IS"Apparently I need to be enlightened. Oh great Voided, White Knight Defender of the Scum, please tell me about all of the wonderful accomplishments that Ser ScumWriter has done for us mere townfolk. Other than the obvious pushing for the Krew mislynch, there must be lots, LOTS of good deed that. ScumWriter must be doing behind the scenes.[/quote]

Why are you asking Voided? You're the one who is accusing him, so you're the one who has to look it up.

I'd probably be game for a Zang lynch as well now

Unvote
Vote: Thor665

HOW AT ALL IS IT SCUMMY THAT I WENT V/LA? It's not my fault that my laptop broke but you're saying that I should be lynched. Why? How is that scummy?

I might read up over night if I get a burr in my bonnet, but it's not in my top ten list of things to accomplish this week, no

Before you accuse anybody of anything you should have read the thread and If you couldn't then you should have replaced out.

So essentially you want me to play this game for you? Screw that, let the mod give me two votes and we will prop you up in the cornet like some dilapidated puppet. You want to contribute and be a good little replacement, then read the fucking thread yourself despite the fact that we arent important to you at all. If you havent even read, your reads dont mean shit either.

This might be the first pro-town post IS made all game.

Zang has been defending Scumwriter/lurkers all game.

Yes, I've been defending all lurkers all game because lurking isn't scummy.

Nothing in the mass of stuff Zang has ever thrown up has given him any townpoints, and I'm still pretty leery of his flippant and patronizing attempt to banish most of my argument.

How did I banish most of your argument?

- zang doing that quote splitting thing again fuck. is he voting anyone? i've not seen him throw out any really substantial accusations for a long time

I was voting smallpeoples, now i'm voting thor.

@IS - huzzah, I read the thread, now my opinions count. Smurfing, Smurf, Smurf, I am great terrorist

You promised a wall. You can also give an actual case on Ghostwriter now, right?

Probably everyone should vote Ghostwriter so we can all take it easy over the night phase and catch up

I still have no idea why you think Ghostwriter is scum.

For now, im going to switch tracks. If some lurkers are dead, that means that any scum lurkers are soon to be exposed. So naturally the scum want to derail the town from lynching lurkers in order to protect their friend. Maybe attempt to guide them away and push into another direction. Whcih is one of the reasons why I think Zang is scum. He comes in with a flurry, then backs off, reassesses the town mood, then attacks again. I know he is V/LA, but if the ScumWriter wagon isnt happening, it could be because the scum dont want to be the only ones jumping on it.

I was defending lurkers before they were dead.

[Zang]

Lack of doing anything that looks town in any way?
Why do you think he looks town? Because lurking isn't scummy? Whoo-hoo, great case...wait...no.

Lack of doing anything? How does what he do not look town in annyway? He looks town to me because he provides content and isn't doing anything scummy.

Lurking.
Defending himself as opposed to taking proactive action in any way.
Sitting on an "obvious" case but not advancing it when it's clear it's being ignored.
Obviously popping up to post when pressured and otherwise having no purpose to appear in thread.

Lurking – not scummy
Defending himself as opposed to taking proactive action in any way. – Does this look like he's defending himself:

Stop defending me. There's no point. If these 'cases' held any kind of water, I'd be doing it myself. They don't, so I'm not. There is now a huge smokescreen being thrown into the air, partly due to all this garbage, and partly due to the fact that the same 4 or 5 people are all posting about the same thing while prod after prod gets sent out to others. More people need to get in here and take a stance somewhere so that we can actually play this game.

Sitting on an "obvious" case but not advancing it when it's clear it's being ignored. - Please explain to me how he is doing this and why it is scummy.

Obviously popping up to post when pressured and otherwise having no purpose to appear in thread-How is he being pressured?

Made one case post, stayed quiet about the case otherwise, and defended himself?

1.He's done a lot more than that.
2.How is that scummy?

didn't say any of that - please quote where I did.
you're presuming what my case is and then acting like the case is bad because it's silly. If my case was "lol, laptop broke" I'll agree my case would be silly, but...

I went V/LA and then you said:

I'd probably be game for a Zang lynch as well now

Actually I promised a wall if IS did something for me (as I recall, it was pointing out where he said I was sheeping) He didn't do that, so I then made no promise about a wall.

I don't care if IS didn't do anything. I expect a wall.

[quote="Thor"You also didn't ask for an actual case until this post - so why do you need to repeat yourself 3 times to try to act like I'm ignoring you when you just asked? Get over your bad self.[/quote]

I point things out when I see them, I don't care if I'm repeating myself. I never accused you of ignoring me.

4th time. Man, I am so scummy for not magically answering the question you asked in this post already.

I first asked it in a previous post and I shouldn't have needed to ask you. You should have answered it when you voted for him.

He was also kind of psychotically hyper-defensive about my slight jab in his direction

a slight jab? You said that you could lynch me for no reason at all.

[Zang]

Zhang is hypersensitive.

Zang not Zhang

To be perfectly honest - yes it does look like he's defending himself. He's dismissing there being any relevance to the case and suggesting it is so weak it doesn't need defense. This is a form of defense, because he's trying to convince everyone there's nothing there worth paying attention to.

So he's defending himself by not defending himself?

1. Look at his play today - it's blatantly clear he's doing this. If you can't see it ask again and I'll show examples

I meant that I was confused with what you were accusing him of.

2. It's scummy because, besides that case, what are his reads today? Who is his second suspect? Who are his top town reads? Who has he attacked? Who has he defended (besides himself)?

Did you ask him for his reads? Just because he hasn't said them doesn't mean he doesn't have them.

You do seem to be aware that IS and I are voting him, yes? That's pressure.

IS isn't voting for him, Voided is.

Ghostwriter was active before you voted for him.

Look at all his posts today - check how many are about his case (1...maybe 2 if you squint)

4 today and 1 yesterday.

there is rarely payoff for defending anybody,

No, You can prevent a town lynch and catch scum.

I'm about to vote Zhang just to mix it up and I think Zhang is town and lynching him is a bad idea

What?

[Zang]

No, he's defending himself by claiming the accusation isn't worth a defensive case. Basically he's avoiding even dealing with the accusation - that's avoidance which *is* a type of defense, yes.

So then how could he not defend himself? According to you, everything he could do besides ignoring the case entirely is considered defense.

Yes, I specifically asked him for his reads and also specifically asked him why he wasn't pressing his case. His basic answer was 'can't be bothered, today is useless...meeeeeeh...." <-- direct quote

Where did he say that?

2. So he's not active now?

Where did I say that? My point is that he was active before and after you pressured him.

What? I think that's pretty clear. I'm considering voting you and pushing that wagon through even though I'm pretty sure you're town. Do you see a bigger wagon I can support? I'm literally on the next biggest and it's going NOWHERE even though I've been screaming about it all day, and everyone else in the game is sort of just listlissly staring at each other going "meh" back and forth. Someone needs to decide they are not the anointed of Heaven and support a case they don't agree with or we're rushing into a no lynch due to stupidity situation - and I hate those.

That doesn't mean you should vote for somebody who you think is town. And bogre has just as much votes as me now.

[Zang]

I never said defending himself was scummy.
I said doing it to the exclusion of other work was scummy.

But he's not excluding other work.

After I asked him why he wasn't advancing any case. Posts 609 and 610


Thor - where should we go today, why aren't you doing it?
Ghostwriter - I already said it in my 1st/2nd post of the day - nothing more to be said. (Note - ignore I haven't said anything about it since but am just defending myself – thanks)

1.You said it was a direct quote.
2.He never said that today was useless or that he can't be bothered.
3.I don't see what his opinion on where we should go today has to do with advancing his case.
4.I also don't see what that has to do with asking for his reads.

We have different opinions of what 'active' means then. In my mind he has not been active at all. In this game he's only remotely looking like he's playing because we have so many players flaking out, but he's not really playing

I disagree.

He does now, yes.
Do you think he's a good lynch?

He's a null read and it's getting closer to the deadline so lynching him is better than a no lynch

Unvote

Vote: Bogre

As to who I have more-so scum reads on, who was it that asked for a mass-nameclaim? And also to TS (I think thats his commonly abbreviation for his name) for the refusal to answer the question day 1 of the name of his faction. Why does he have any reason to hide the name of his faction?

Do you mean IS?

I believe it is either town-majority or an even split of town/scum.

What do you mean by this? All the scum could be on it and there would still be a town majority.

[Zang]

1. Don't be pedantic.
2. Don't be pedantic.
3. ...he *wasn't advancing his case and I just showed that* that was the point of this question from you.
4. I...it really has a lot to do with it, I don't understand your confusion

All you did was ask him where we should go today. It doesn't really matter anymore though because he's being replaced.

He's defending himself by saying the case is unfounded

It was.

What? I'm still irked that he was comparing my content to smallpeoples, who was borderline trolling as VI.

I don't see what was wrong. At that point, smallpeoples wasn't really trolling, I was basing his content mostly after what he did day 1.

That's not me putting words in his mouth. His reply was in the negative to your statement, thus saying I posted 'very little' content.

I did say that you posted little content but I did not say that you posted no content. At that point, you did post very little. You were active in the beginning with content but then throughout the rest of day 1 you posted very little. I also said that you were trying, to me you seemed like somebody who just fell behind in the game and was trying to catch back up

That's just the thing. He was saying that I'd pretty much done nothing- when what I had been doing was pointing fingers at him.

Scum-deflect defense.

I never accused you of doing nothing. I remember responding to most of your points against me when you were pointing fingers at me. That was my defense, not saying that you did very little.

[Zang]

Bah! I can't believe IS was town.

[Zang]

Voided, it was really obvious that you were a cop.

[Zang]

Voided, it was really obvious that you were a cop.

Did the whole "Dammit guys, don't lynch IS" stuff give me away?

Mostly. I was surprised the mafia didn't see it.

[Zang]

Can somebody post the scum QT?

[Zang]

Ender being a VT fit him perfectly.